489. Beyond Mentorship - How to Sponsor Success

Summary

The Brainy Business Podcast: Episode 489 – Beyond Mentorship: How to Sponsor Success

Release Date: April 17, 2025
Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Dr. Rosalind Chow, Associate Professor of Organizational Behavior and Theory at Carnegie Mellon University

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Introduction

In episode 489 of The Brainy Business, host Melina Palmer delves into the nuanced world of professional development by distinguishing between mentorship and sponsorship. Inviting Dr. Rosalind Chow, an esteemed organizational behavior expert, the conversation explores how sponsorship can be a transformative tool for enhancing diversity, inclusion, and overall organizational effectiveness.

Understanding Dr. Rosalind Chow's Journey

Dr. Chow shares her academic journey, highlighting her shift from researching the persistence of social hierarchies and inequalities to seeking actionable solutions. Dissatisfied with merely documenting issues, she turned her focus toward sponsorship—a proactive approach to dismantling unequal systems within organizations.

"I've published a lot on the dynamics of social hierarchies and maintaining unequal systems, but I wanted to explore how we can actively dismantle those systems," explains Dr. Chow (03:30).

Sponsorship vs. Mentorship

A key theme of the episode is differentiating sponsorship from mentorship. While mentorship often involves guiding and attempting to develop the mentee’s skills, sponsorship is about advocating for someone's advancement without necessarily trying to change who they are.

Dr. Chow elaborates:

"Sponsorship is a form of support where you're not trying to change the person, but rather changing the social environment around them," (06:55).
"Mentorship would be more about coaching them to improve specific skills or behaviors," she continues.

Power and Status: The True Drivers of Effective Sponsorship

Dr. Chow introduces the distinction between power and status, emphasizing that effective sponsorship relies more on status than on positional power. Power is defined as control over resources, whereas status is the admiration and respect one commands.

"Power allows you to compel others to act, but status inspires them to want to act for you," Dr. Chow explains (19:46).
She underscores that even individuals without formal power can wield significant influence through their status and the trust they build within their networks.

The Derek Jeter and Kim Ang Example

To illustrate sponsorship, Dr. Chow recounts the story of Derek Jeter and Kim Ang. Despite Kim Ang's qualifications, it wasn't until Jeter publicly endorsed her that she achieved her dream role as the first female General Manager in Major League Baseball.

"What's important here is that Derek didn't mentor Kim by coaching her; he sponsored her by vouching for her abilities to others," Dr. Chow notes (10:01).

Risks and Rewards of Sponsorship

Sponsorship involves personal risk, as endorsing someone ties the sponsor’s reputation to the protege's success. Dr. Chow advises that sponsors can mitigate risk by choosing what aspects to endorse, ranging from verifiable achievements to more speculative future successes.

"Sponsorship is a continuum. You can choose how much to stake your reputation based on your confidence in the person you're sponsoring," she advises (15:14).

The rewards are substantial, enhancing the sponsor's influence and contributing positively to organizational culture by connecting problems with effective solutions.

Good Gossip: A Positive Networking Tool

Dr. Chow introduces the concept of "good gossip," which involves sharing positive information about others to build connections and support within a network. This form of networking fosters an environment where individuals are recognized for their contributions and capabilities.

"Good gossip helps others know who is good at what, and it positions you as someone who pays attention to and appreciates others' strengths," Dr. Chow explains (24:14).

Enhancing Listening Skills for Effective Sponsorship

A pivotal part of the conversation focuses on listening skills. Dr. Chow describes an exercise where participants listen without responding, which ultimately deepens mutual understanding and trust.

"After the exercise, participants often feel much closer and more connected, even experiencing emotional breakthroughs," she shares (27:23). This enhanced listening capability is crucial for sponsors to accurately identify and address the needs of their proteges.

Kyle Webster and Adobe: The Power of Networking

Dr. Chow shares the inspiring story of Kyle Webster, an illustrator whose digital paint brushes were acquired by Adobe. Initially struggling to find the right connections, Kyle leveraged his network by openly seeking assistance, leading to the successful sale.

"Kyle's story teaches us to ask for help and to recognize the extended network beyond our immediate contacts," Dr. Chow asserts (36:00).
This example underscores the importance of leveraging both direct and second-order connections in sponsorship and networking.

Final Insights: Be a Sponsor to Attract Sponsorship

In her concluding thoughts, Dr. Chow emphasizes that sponsorship should not be a one-sided quest to find advocates. Instead, by actively sponsoring others, individuals can cultivate a reciprocal environment where sponsorship naturally flows.

"The best way to find sponsors is to start by being a sponsor yourself. When you support others, they are more likely to support you in return," she advises (42:06).

Melina Palmer's Takeaways

Melina Palmer reflects on the distinctions drawn between mentorship and sponsorship, appreciating the actionable insights provided by Dr. Chow. She highlights the importance of status over power and encourages listeners to begin sponsoring others immediately, emphasizing the long-term benefits of such altruistic actions.

"Sponsoring others is an investment that pays dividends, often in unexpected and significant ways," Melina concludes (44:21).

Conclusion

Episode 489 of The Brainy Business offers a compelling exploration of sponsorship as a pivotal tool for professional growth and organizational improvement. Dr. Rosalind Chow’s insights provide listeners with a deeper understanding of how to effectively sponsor others, leveraging status and trust rather than positional power. This episode not only differentiates sponsorship from mentorship but also equips listeners with practical strategies to implement sponsorship in their own careers and organizations.

For more resources and to connect with Dr. Rosalind Chow, visit the show notes and follow Melina Palmer on LinkedIn as mentioned in the episode.

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This summary captures the essence of episode 489, providing a comprehensive overview for both regular listeners and newcomers interested in the psychology of consumer behavior and organizational success through behavioral economics.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Welcome to episode 489 of the Brainy Business Understanding the psychology of why people buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Rosalind Chow. Ready? Let's get started.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[Melina Palmer]

Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. What doors have been opened for you throughout your life and career? How did those doors shape the experience you have today? And how often have you opened doors for others that could be leaving the door open once you've walked through? But it's also that intentional experience of using whatever influence you have to open a door for someone else. It may feel like you can only do that once you've risen high enough in your organization, like you need more power and status to help others. But that isn't the case. There are always doors you can open, and the great news is they can help you along the way as well. I'm excited to talk more about this in today's conversation with Roslyn Chow. Roslyn is an associate professor of organizational behavior and theory at Carnegie Mellon University, where she studies the power of social hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts within organizations. Her new book, the doors you can open distinguishes the concept of sponsorship from mentorship, a concept I absolutely love and I'm so excited to share with you today. We also talk about the difference between power and status, proper ways to think about networking, and more. It's such a great discussion. I can't wait to jump right in. Last thing. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Rosalind and myself, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 489. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Rosalind Chao, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Thanks for having me.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely.

[Guest Speaker]

I'm so excited to be chatting with you today.

[Melina Palmer]

Loved your book.

[Guest Speaker]

It has such great insights in it. Well, of course, dive into that in a moment here, but for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. So I am an associate professor of organizational behavior and theory at Carnegie Mellon University. I Study topics related to power and status, social hierarchies, normally within the context of different social inequalities like racial differences or gender differences. And I got tired of publishing papers about those topics and wanted to focus more on things we could do to reduce the inequalities that we see around us. And that led me to my interest in sponsorship. And that's what the book is about.

[Guest Speaker]

Oh, great. Well, I'm intrigued by the. Like you said, you got tired of writing papers on it and decided to make a shift. Can you share a little bit more about what you mean by kind of that experience?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. So a lot of my earlier papers are about, you could say, in a way like the inevitability of social inequality and social hierarchy, because it's one of the most natural ways of organizing social behavior. And so for a lot of us, it actually is helpful to know who's in charge, who's not in charge, who we should pay attention to, all of those things. The problem is that oftentimes the cues that we're using to make those decisions are aligned with other characteristics that actually should have no bearing on our decision on who should be in charge and who should be following. So I've published a lot on those sorts of dynamics around who tends to rise to the top in groups, different social groups, and how they try to maintain their positions within social hierarchies. But again, all of that is really about the persistence and the maintenance of unequal social systems. And really not much is out there on how you can actively dismantle those unequal systems. So that was the impetus for wanting to move in a slightly different direction.

[Melina Palmer]

Right, right.

[Guest Speaker]

And a very valuable one. And, like, instead of just talking about what's wrong, let's step back a little bit and see what we can do to change. So just for those who aren't as familiar with the field and the research that does exist there, can you share where you said there are some, you know, who does tend to kind of rise into some of these powerful positions? And we said it's for maybe peripheral reasons or things that aren't as important, like, what are some of those qualities or things that come into play that tends, you know, as, you know, human nature, that certain people that we kind of sort in this way.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. You know, I think the most obvious one is to point to is physical cues. So often the person who talks most in a group is the one who tends to emerge as the informal leader and are chosen by others to be leaders. And that's because we have this unspoken association between confidence and competence, but in reality, that relationship is not very strong. And so it's, you know, it's a problem of relying on these proxies for these underlying qualities that are harder to evaluate because we're just cognitively lazy creatures.

[Guest Speaker]

Definitely. Well, and I. I have a whole episode on the Dunning Kruger effect as far as the confidence competence problem. And it goes into. Into play there, for sure. So, yeah. So then, as your work has kind of evolved here, and like you said, you went into sponsorship, can you share a little bit? I, of course, know from reading the book what you're talking about, but can you share for people kind of what that means and why it matters?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. I mean, I think the first thing I want to mention is that a lot of people don't know what it means or if they do, they have a different association with it than I intend. So a lot of people know about sponsorship in the context of, say, sports sponsorships or immigration sponsorship. So for you to have a successful application to immigrate somewhere, typically you need a person in that home country to be willing to sponsor you. You also have sponsorship in the context of work visas. And there's also the sponsorship idea from Alcoholics Anonymous, which is not how we're thinking about sponsorship here at all. So sponsorship, in the way that I think about it is it's a form of typically professional support, but really just any kind of social support could fall into the category of sponsorship. But it's any support that you give to someone where instead of trying to change the person that you're trying to help, you're not trying to change who they are, you're trying to change the social environment around them. And so a type of or a form of sponsorship that a lot of people are very familiar with are like letters of recommendation or referrals where somebody's writing on your behalf, saying nice things about you, encouraging other people to treat you a particular way, that would be sponsorship. And not to be confused with mentorship, where the person, the mentor is actually trying to change the mentee. This is where the teacher who's writing you a letter of recommendation is actually telling the student, hey, you need to do more of X, Y and Z. So that would be mentorship. But then writing the letter of recommendation to the college and saying, hey, this student is great for ABC reasons, that.

[Guest Speaker]

Would be sponsorship, definitely. And it's. I was, of course, going to ask about the mentorship connection, so glad that you brought that up here. And I think that's something that people maybe think about a little bit more formally. Right. As far as a lot of companies have their sort of required, you know, whether they're as well planned out or not, you know, but like a mentorship program inside of an organization is more common than a sponsorship type of a program. Though I do believe, you know, you talked about in the book that there are at least some companies that are trying to bring that together. And so, you know, good to kind of see and think about the differences here. I think there's reason that you started with it early in the book, but the example with Derek Jeter is a really good example of kind of what.

[Melina Palmer]

This can look like.

[Guest Speaker]

Can you share a little bit about that story?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. So this is. Well, I guess it's a story of Derek Jeter. It's also the story of.

[Guest Speaker]

Right. It's a story of a thing that he did one time that was really helpful. So fair enough. Yes.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

So Kim Ang, starting with Kim Ang, she was the general manager for the Marlins and she is possibly more famous or most famous for being the first female GM in Major League Baseball and then actually in all four kind of major league or, you know, major American sport leagues. And the question has always been, why did it take her so long? Because she was probably ready to be a GM like 10 years before she actually was selected to be one. And it wasn't until Derek Jeter actually became a co owner of the Marlins and he had worked with Kim Eng when they were together at the Yankees and he basically vouched for her to the other people in the club and she was finally able to get her dream job of being a general manager. I like starting off with that story because I think it makes it so clear how what Derek Jeter did was sponsorship and not mentorship. So if he had been mentoring Kim Ang, he would have. That would have taken the form of talking to her and saying, hey, when you interview, these are the qualifications you want to play up, or this is something that the team is really concerned about. So as you prepare, make sure you have an answer for these types of questions. Right. So really trying to make change something about Kim Eng. So that would have counted his mentorship, but that's actually not what he did at all. He didn't, he didn't give her any coaching for that interview. He was, he was already very well acquainted with her qualifications. He knew she was going to do well on her own. The main thing was just making sure that she would say yes to the opportunity of interviewing for the position and then I'm sure once they finish that process, he probably advocated very strongly for them to hire her.

[Guest Speaker]

Right. And like you said, potentially it's, you know, I believe. So he reached out to her and said, hey, if I put your name up, would you be open to this sort of, you know, trying for it, of which I'm sure it's like, yes, please. I've been trying to get this job for a long time.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

What's funny about that, though? And I think this is actually a really interesting thing that I don't talk about as much in the book, because the book is more for people who are going to be sponsors, but there's this interesting interplay between being sponsored as well. And so if you look into the interviews that Kim Eng did at that time, she talks about how nervous she is to be interviewing for the Marlins because it's Derek Jeter and there's a. Right. I mean, basically, she's putting herself in a situation where she might get denied or rejected, and that has implications for her relationship with this person that I imagine she feels fairly close with and trusts. And that would be. That would be a hard thing to have happen in a relationship. Right.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

So you have to feel. You have to feel pretty certain. Certain. I guess, as a protege, if you're going to say yes to these types of opportunities, because obviously it's an opportunity to shine, but it also is a potentially an opportunity where things might not go very well and it's going to look bad for you, it's going to look bad for your sponsor, and it's going to damage your relationship with them.

[Guest Speaker]

Right, right. And so I think that takes us nicely into the question of if someone was going to choose to sponsor, you know, where's there's risk in that.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

And in the way that, I mean, being a mentor, which is so important, I am a big, you know, advocate of mentorship, as I'm sure you are as well.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

And with this, it's. People need mentors and they also need sponsors. And knowing that, like. But as a mentor, I can be giving you advice. You. You do what you're going to do with it. And it's kind of. There's a wall that you can kind of put up between that. Whereas a sponsor is like, I'm putting my name, my reputation on the line.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

That's in the same way of, like, not a professional reference for everyone, sort of a deal. And even being a reference where someone can call me is different than I'm going out of my way actively proactively paving a way for someone else and doing what I can to make that happen. You know, it could feel like there's a lot of, you know, risk in that. It could be scary for some people. What thoughts do you have on that as far as advice to you of, like, why it's worth it, even if it does feel a little scary?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Well, so this is, I mean, so thank you for talking through that because I think that's actually a really important part of what I want people to take away from the book, which is a lot of times people think of sponsorship as this, like, yes, no category of behavior. Am I going to sponsor someone or not? And I think what you're pointing to is actually that sponsorship is a continuum of different types of behavior. So, yes, maybe I'm willing to act as a referral for someone, but how far I'm willing to go, that changes the amount of personal risk that I'm taking on. So you can always sponsor if you want. It's just that how you choose to do it will, like, strengthen the association that people have in their minds between you and the person you're sponsoring. So if you want to play it really safe, you just, you co sign on the things you feel especially certain about. Right? So that would be like, oh, Melina won this award for her podcast that is irrefutable, verifiable evidence that no one is going to be able to, like, say is wrong. That's a very safe thing to be putting out there into the world as a sponsor. But on the other hand, if I were to say, I think Melina is so great that she is going to win these podcast awards, and that's why you should be paying attention to her. That's in the future, it's uncertain. You don't know. So your willingness to state that sort of outcome with more certainty kind of puts you more on the hook for if things don't go as you predict. So you can kind of choose how much you want to predict into the future for the other person. And so if you, if you feel scared about sponsoring, you can always just stick with what you know to be true. And that is super low risk and still a way to be a sponsor. That doesn't answer your other question of, like, well, why should you sponsor if, like, it's so risky? So if you're a really good sponsor, meaning, you know, you make good calls, people trust you, they take your, they, they take your recommendations, they end up working with the people you recommend, and they see that, lo and behold, this person really is wonderful. It's not just that your protege gets a boost. It's like in the future they're going to pay even more attention to the recommendations that you are going to be giving out. And so that's great for a couple reasons. One, because you have more influence. But the, the other reason it's really great is because I like to think of sponsorship as a way to connect problems with solutions. And the more of us who can do that, the better it is for everyone. So if you know people that other people should know, it's really much better if you're willing to make those connections happen than if you shy away from, you know, introducing people to each other, for instance.

[Melina Palmer]

Right, right.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, and for everyone now that's thinking, okay, yes. And you know, but I'm not, I'm not Derek Jeter. Right. So like I, what, what, who am I, what am I supposed to do? What, what do I have here? Can you share a little bit about, you know, power and status and whether we like, can everyone be a sponsor even if we don't have, we would say we don't have those things yet.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Yeah. So this is also a really important distinction to be making. So a lot of people think that the only people who can sponsor others are people who have lots of power. So be with, think of Derek Jeter as someone who has a lot of power because in that situation he's a co owner and CEO of the Marlins. So he clearly has a lot of decision making power. But the most effective sponsorship isn't necessarily coming from power, it's coming from status. I'm a social psychologist by training. In social psychology, we like to distinguish between power and status. Power is what we call a control over resources that other people want. And status is the admiration and respect that other people have for you. So I like to think of this as you can exert influence by compelling other people to do what you want or by getting them to want to do it themselves. And so power allows you to compel, but status basically makes other people want to do it for you of their own volition. So you're not, you're not forcing them to do it. They just, they just want to do it. And that's because we trust people who have status. So we don't actually necessarily trust people who have power. If anything, I think many of us have a negative association with people who have power. We typically tend to think that our interactions with them are not going to go very well. They're not very friendly. But that's not true for people who have status. And so sponsorship works best when it comes from a person with status. And what I would say to readers is that you always have status in somebody's eyes, not necessarily within, you know, your organization. You might not feel like you have a lot of power, but you probably have at least one or two people who trust your judgment and would take your advice if you were to give it to them. And that's trust that you can leverage into sponsoring someone else. Because sponsorship, in a way, I like to think of it as trust transitivity. So if you trust me and I trust this person and then think they're great, then you should also trust that person. And I assure you that you're going to think they're great too. Right. And so for those people who think they don't have a lot of power, you want to start thinking less about power, more about trust. And then if it's really daunting to you, just focus on the positive stuff. Right. So I call it good gossip. Good gossip is always a low hanging fruit for all of us to engage in. And it actually seems to help everyone when we share good gossip because now other people are aware of who's good at what. But you also get kudos for being the kind of person who pays attention to what other people are doing and the good that other people are doing. So you're paying attention to the positives, the contributions that other people are making. And you seem very other, what we would call other focused. Right. You're not, you're not self promoting, you're promoting, but you're promoting somebody else, which is a very selfless kind of action. And it's, it's a great way to show that you care about the group to help somebody else, to make it more obvious. Like if there's someone in the group who has a problem that this person would be good to, you know, would be helpful to help solve their problem. Like now you, you have that information. It's just, it's what we call like a win, win, win situation for everyone.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, definitely. So as we expand a little bit on the idea of good gossip, is it just that we, instead of saying, oh my gosh, did you see what Melina was wearing yesterday? Yuck, right. Sort of gossip instead of something like that is more like, oh my gosh, did you hear, you know, Molina just won this award on this thing or whatever. Right. Like that. And, or is it, you know, where does this tie into the idea of just even being a connector?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

You know, as Far as I heard, this job is available. I'm going to tell them about this person. Like, it's gossiping that someone's, you know, good about something or that you heard about a job role. Like, what? All falls into the category. If people are looking to channel their need to connect and gossip in a positive way, what would that look like?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

I mean, we do it all the time, really. It's just not necessarily about specific individuals. Like, we just. We don't see it that way. So, for instance, if you were talking to someone and they're like, you know, I'm just. I'm feeling really bored. I don't know how. I, like, I just don't have a lot of intellectual stimulation in my life right now. Like, let's imagine that that's their problem. Okay, so that's their problem. And so then maybe what you could do is you would say, okay, well, the way that I manage that problem is I listen to a bunch of podcasts. So let me tell you about all the podcasts that I find really interesting. And here's this one by Melina Palmer. Right. Like, you should listen to the brainy business because that one really captures my attention and breaks down things down in a way that makes me feel intellectually stimulated. So here is someone expressing that they have a problem. They're unaware of the solutions available, and you're essentially just helping them make that connection. So that would be an easy one. In the workplace, this typically manifests as like, oh, you have this problem, or you have this question. I don't necessarily know the answer to that question, or I don't have the capacity to help you with this thing right now. But I know someone else who can answer that question or who does have capacity and would be a really great fit for this sort of opportunity.

[Melina Palmer]

Right?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. So making those sort of connections and helping, you know. And so when you were coming up with those suggestions there, I definitely was thinking about, you know, later in the book, you talk a little bit about listening and, like, actually really deeply listening. And I think it's so. It was so interesting to read about your examples, because we hear all the time that you should be a better listener and be an active listener. And it's like, okay, fine. But the exercise you talk about in the book is one that I found very interesting. Can you share a little bit about that?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

It's one of my favorite exercises, and I will give credit where credit is due. My colleague Nathan Pettit was the one who shared it with me. I don't know if there's an alternative originating author to the exercise. So in this exercise, the participants are paired off into. Well, they're paired off in pairs. So there's two of them. They're sitting across the table from each other, and they have to answer a series of questions. But the kicker is that while one of them is speaking, the other one cannot respond. And there's three rounds of the exercise, and each round gets longer and longer. So the first round is two minutes long, then it's five minutes, and then it's eight minutes. And each person, you know, they switch back and forth between who is speaking and who's listening. And it's really hard for the people in the exercise. Like, the first two minutes are just agony for both of them, for both the speaker and the listener, because the speakers usually run out of things to say. And the listeners are like, how am I supposed to engage in this conversation when I can't say anything? Or depending on how I run it, I also don't let them make facial expressions either, which is really hard for a lot of people. But what's really magical is that as. As you go into. Through the exercise, people kind of relax into it. So listeners, they realize, oh, well, if I'm not allowed to do anything, like, I. I can't say anything in response, and I can do minimal facial expressions. So now, I mean, the only thing I have to do is listen. And they find that they are just, like much. They. They internalize a lot more of what the other person has to say. And the speakers, some. I mean, some students just never get over the fact that they have to spend so much time speaking. But there are other students who. They realize, like, huh, this person can't respond one way or the other. And so I don't have to pay attention to if they understand what I'm saying, if they care about what it is that I'm talking about. Like, I can just talk about whatever I want. And so they start spewing stuff. I like to call it verbal vomit. But they're like some really golden gems in the verbal vomit, right? Because it's the. It's the uncensored stuff that we normally don't share. And so after the exercise, I think what's really compelling is that, you know, the students will always be like, that was the weirdest thing ever. Like, I don't want to ever do this again. But when you ask them, like, how. How close do you feel with the other person? How well do you feel like they know you? They all feel a Lot closer to each other. There's usually some crying involved because someone starts sharing something that they didn't expect to share. People hug afterwards and they're like, I feel like I made a new best friend. I mean, the responses to the exercise can be really touching.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, and like you said with that like, you know, two minutes to just talk, I feel like I could do that. Right. Eight is a lot. Especially after I just talked for two and five minutes. As you just sort of ramble as a podcaster, I, I speak into the abyss a lot, so I'm sure I'd be okay. But it is, um, it's fascinating and I know you, like you say in the book, is that it feels like to have a good conversation, to get to know people, this back and forth is required and so showing that actually if you just take the time to, to listen and hear what they're saying, that you can get to a deeper level than would have been possible if you're waiting for your turn to talk. Right. If you're just looking to be able to speak.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Yeah, yeah. I think for me the important thing for my students and, but also for the readers is that we actually guide our conversations in pretty significant ways through our. Both through our non verbal behavior, but also in what we choose to respond to. Right. About what the other person is saying. And a lot of times, you know, we think of the most constructive conversations as one where both sides are contributing equally. But there's another version where what you give to the other person isn't your perspective, but really just space for them to articulate for themselves what is important and where they want to go. And you are just kind of this passenger in their self exploration. So it's, you know, if I had to give some advice maybe. Right. It's for, it's, it's for the listeners who tend to like to solve other people's problems, like jump into problem solving mode right away when they hear the other person is struggling with something. Because sometimes it's actually, it's not just okay, what are you struggling with and how can I help you solve that? It's, it's more important to understand why the thing that they're struggling with is one, a struggle for them, but two, why that thing in particular compared to like anything else. And that is the kind of deeper information that I think many of us don't take the time or give other people the space to share with us.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And so as we look to bring that, you know, kind of full circle, how does the skill of Being a better listener help as far as then being a, a sponsor, like, how does, how does that come into play?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

So I think of sponsors, again, like they're problem solvers. They're not just people. Like, they're not just like PR people, like pushing out messages into, into the world. It's much more targeted if, if you're doing it right because you're not looking to spam other people with positive gossip, you want to focus your sponsorship on the people who are actually looking for the solutions that you can offer, which are, you know, the other people in your network. So I like to think of it as being really good at identifying problems and really good at identifying potential solutions. And so when we think about people as having problems and being a good listener and understanding one, you know, one asking if they have struggles, because that's often something we don't necessarily ask about or people necessarily even share about. So that is part of why I talk so much about being a good listener. It's about being able to hear what the problems are and to understand it at a deeper level. So that when you can offer potential solutions in the form of sponsoring somebody else from your network, you have a higher likelihood of making a good match across those two people. But it's not just really understanding the problem, it's also really understanding the solution. Right. So if, if you know somebody has a problem, you also need to know why that person in particular would be a good solution for that problem.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

And, you know, that just also made me think a bit about taking the time to ask. As far as those who become sponsored, you have the example of the, for Adobe and the, the guy that had created the different brushes and where we think we don't have people or we're hesitant about asking sometimes. So just I think getting back to the side of someone who, who could be sponsored, knowing that people are out there, you know, what's the little bit about that story, I guess, and then advice for people to like. You don't know who you know and what they know and who they know, right?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Yes, that's right. So just to briefly talk about that story. So this is the story of Kyle Webster, and he is an illustrator who actually invented these digital paint brushes. They're known as Kyle brushes. They became super popular, so much so that Adobe ended up acquiring them and now includes them as part of their tool set set in Adobe Photoshop. So they're now very broadly available. And when Adobe first approached Kyle about purchasing his brush set, he realized that he had no idea how he was supposed to like, how do you even know how much your brush set is worth? What are the terms you can ask for? Like, he definitely need, I mean, you need a good lawyer, basically is what it comes down to. Like, so as, as an illustrator and not necessarily like a business person, he felt really stuck because his network is, was, and like many of us, his, his network was very like composed of people who are very similar to him. So they were all also illustrators. And he was kind of like, okay, well right now I don't need an illustrator, I need a lawyer. And I don't know any lawyers. I only know other illustrators. But he ended up kind of getting over himself and shouting like an SOS into the ether and being like, okay, friends, I need a lawyer, please, anyone know a lawyer? And as it turns out, at least one of his friends did know a lawyer who was perfectly qualified for this particular type of transaction. And so Kyle Webster was able to fulfill his dream of selling his brushes to Adobe. And the moral of the story there is that one, you should ask for help when you need it, even if you're not sure, you know, if, if the right person exists in your network. And I think the other thing that I would highlight here is like, a lot of people think about networking in terms of who you know directly. And that's just, that's, that's a very simplistic way of thinking about networking. The more advanced way of thinking about networking is trying to figure out who the people you know know. So it's the second order relationships that are actually really important for you to try and map out if you can. Because just like in Kyle Webster's case, he had no idea who all of his friends were connected to. And it turns out there was, there were so many more resources in his network than he realized.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And just taking that time to ask. I am a big advocate. I always talk about how, you know business and life, you know, but business is a long game, right. And in this space of, you know, give generously, give often, there's a reason we have be thoughtful kind of as the moral of the world here at the brainy business and just, you don't know when you're going to need to ask for something. But also like what, you know, 25 steps down the line is going to come back around in a positive way and just, you know, make the connection, see the thing, make the call, send the text, do the thing, right? Because, and eventually, you know, it'll, it'll all work itself out. But that's so that is a big reason why your, your book and your work really appealed to me of the, you know, showing the science behind that and that it's not just nice to do. There's actual a lot of really good value for other people, too.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Absolutely. Yeah. That there's a way to network that doesn't have to be dirty is. Is the way that I like to think about it. Right. It's not about being super strategic and trying to plan out, okay. Five years from now, I might meet this person, so I'm going to try and cultivate that relationship.

[Guest Speaker]

Now Steven's saying that you go, no.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

No, it's a. It's, you know, it's very much about just being super curious about what's going on with other people and, and being willing to connect them to other things that might, you know, other things. Other people that are going to expand their horizons.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, I love that. Well, I could talk to you all day and we've already had so much of your valu. As we pick and we didn't get to talk about, you know, trusted 10 and so many amazing things from the book. But if you were going to take. And of course, everyone can go get their copy so they can learn more about, you know, what the doors they can open and what those things are we were talking about. But if you were going to share, you know, one last thing as we kind of wrap up, what would you want people to know as they think about the work and the book and anything else?

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Sure. So, you know, I think we started off with me saying that anybody can be a sponsor. Right. I think the other big takeaway that I would want readers to come away with is this idea that it's not about finding sponsors. So so many of us are fixated on finding someone who can sponsor us and more about being a sponsor, that the best way to find sponsors is to first sponsor other people. And once you start saying nice things about other people, those people are going to start saying some really nice things about you too.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, love that.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

The give first and like. No, it'll all come back. Right. Perfect. So, Rosalind, for everyone who is now so excited to of course get their copy of the book and to learn more and to follow you, connect, whatever else. We'll put links in the show notes, of course, but, you know, what's their best path to do? So.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

So if you're actually a person who's super interested in social science, especially as it relates to business and management, I actually post fairly regularly on LinkedIn So in true form, I don't really post about my own research, but what I do is I summarize other people's research and I talk about what the practical implications are of the research for people who are working right in the corporate space. So you should follow me on LinkedIn if you're into social science work and you can get the book at any of your favorite retailers, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I personally prefer bookshop.org, but truly any anywhere you normally get your books.

[Melina Palmer]

Yay.

[Guest Speaker]

Wonderful. And I would say you know what you're talking about that you share on LinkedIn feels very much in line with, you know, the listener base of here at the brainy business. So I bet they will all be very excited about that. And we'll have links to your LinkedIn in the show notes as well. So thank you again, Rosalind. It was so great to chat with you today and excited to have the book out in the world for everyone.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to Dr. Rosalind Chow for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I'm guessing it won't come as too much of a surprise to learn that I really liked the discussion on the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. I also like that we all have the opportunity to be a sponsor for someone else. You don't have to be at the top of any chain to be able to help others. You can sponsor someone right now. Today. I sound like an infomercial. But the good news is sponsoring others is an investment that pays dividends, which very quickly can be monetary for you. Even though your initial act doesn't have to cost you any money, sponsoring people is an act of reciprocity, genuinely giving something to others without expectation of anything in return, but knowing that the universe has a way of repaying those who give first, give generously, and give often. Even if you don't think you have power or you objectively don't have power, it doesn't mean that you don't have status. They're different. Status is a form of influence and something that everyone has. You have status in a group you're part of. It won't be in every group and situation, and that's okay. But who do you know that authentically supports you and listens to what you have to say? Where might you pass that on to another person who wants or needs access to that group? Where's the win? Win for everyone? When you consider how many of these wins will be long term. It's easy to make the case to do a little bit each day to sponsor or support someone else, to be a more thoughtful leader in life and in your organization, no matter what your role or title is. So what will you do today? Come share it with me on social media. I'd love to hear about it and spread the reciprocity around. You'll find me as the Brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links to make it easy to connect with me in the show Notes, which also have links to my top related past episodes and books, including the doors you can open and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com and thank you again to Rosalind Chow for joining me on the show today.

[Guest Speaker]

It was a delight to chat with.

[Melina Palmer]

And learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

[Dr. Rosalind Chow]

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.