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The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
499: Falling in Love with Questions
00:50:46
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Elizabeth Weingarten, journalist and applied behavioral scientist, to discuss her enlightening new book, How to Fall in Love with Questions. Their conversation dives deep into the...
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- [00:01]
Melina Palmer
Hey there, Melina.
- [00:02]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Here to celebrate 500 episodes of the.
- [00:06]
Melina Palmer
Brainy Business, we've put together some goodies for you. First off, our website is now searchable so you can find books and episodes by topic, guest or behavioral concept. Just visit the BrainyBusiness.com podcast or TheBrainyBusiness.com.
- [00:23]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Books to try it out.
- [00:25]
Melina Palmer
And for the first time ever, we have pulled together all of our more than 125 free worksheets in one easy to use guide, including a brand new Brainy Kickstart worksheet that can be used to take a first action and gain momentum in 10 minutes or less. Head to the BrainyBusiness.com guide to grab your free companion guide and get instant.
- [00:50]
Access to all the best tools.
- [00:53]
That's the BrainyBusiness.com guide. Let's make applying what you learn easier than ever. Thank you for more than one and a half million downloads across 500 episodes of the Brainy Business. I'm sure you'll love this episode too.
- [01:08]
Elizabeth Weingarten
So when you're ready, let's start the show.
- [01:11]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 499 of the Brainy Business. Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Elizabeth Weingarten. Ready? Let's get started.
- [01:29]
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [01:45]
Hello.
- [01:45]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Hello everyone.
- [01:46]
Melina Palmer
My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [01:52]
Elizabeth Weingarten
OMG y' all. Can you believe this is episode 499.
- [01:56]
Melina Palmer
Of the Brainy Business?
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Elizabeth Weingarten
499 times I've stepped up to the mic in nearly seven years of this show. I can't believe it. Those of you who've been here for a while know that I like to do something special to commemorate these milestones.
- [02:12]
Melina Palmer
Because celebrations are important. That is scientifically proven.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
And so when I heard there was a new book called how to Follow.
- [02:19]
Melina Palmer
Fall in Love with Questions, A New.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
Way to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty, I knew it was the perfect fit.
- [02:26]
Melina Palmer
Since curiosity and the power of asking great questions are such big themes here.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
At the Brainy Business, the author of.
- [02:34]
Melina Palmer
That book and my guest today is Elizabeth Weingarten. Elizabeth is a journalist and applied behavioral scientist who works at the intersection of science and storytelling.
- [02:45]
Elizabeth Weingarten
A graduate of Northwestern University's Medill School.
- [02:48]
Melina Palmer
Of Journalism, she has worked on the.
- [02:50]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Editorial staffs of the Atlantic, Slate, Qatar.
- [02:54]
Melina Palmer
Today, and was a managing editor of Behavioral Scientist. Her writing has appeared in publications including.
- [03:00]
Elizabeth Weingarten
The Atlantic, Slate, cnn, the Financial Times.
- [03:03]
Melina Palmer
Courts, Harvard Business Review, and Time. She has led research programs at the.
- [03:08]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Think tank New America and the consultancy ideas42, as well as at tech companies Torch and Udemy.
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Melina Palmer
An in demand speaker, she has shared.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
Her work and conducted workshops at venues including south by Southwest, the United nations.
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Melina Palmer
The International Monetary Fund, the University of Pennsylvania, Stanford University, and University of Virginia. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past.
- [03:38]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Episodes and books and ways to get.
- [03:41]
Melina Palmer
In touch with Elizabeth and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainy business.com 499 now let's jump right in. Elizabeth Weingarten, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [03:56]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
- [03:59]
Melina Palmer
Yes. I'm so, so excited.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
I know I told you this. I selected as the perfect fit for episode 499. So delighted to be able to talk. People will know why a little bit more as we go. But, you know, for those who don't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [04:20]
Yeah, absolutely. So I've really worked for most of my career at the intersection of science and storytelling, doing journalism and applied research everywhere, from traditional media outlets like the Atlantic to the think tank New America to the applied behavioral science firm Ideas42, and now working in the tech world. But I think, Melina, probably the best way to tell you about myself is actually by sharing a few of the questions that have motivated me throughout my career, questions that I think have also perhaps motivated you and some of your listeners, too. So questions like why do we humans do the strange things that we do? How do we change our behavior to benefit ourselves and those around us? And how through a deeper understanding of psychology and can we all live more meaningful lives? And, you know, so I've spent my career pursuing those questions through the disciplines of journalism and applied behavioral science until a few years ago when another question really grabbed me and wouldn't let go. And that question was about how to live better with uncertainty. And it led to my new book, how to Fall in Love with Questions, which I know we'll be talking about later on.
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Yes, well, I know.
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Melina Palmer
So I love questions.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
This is where I've I often tell. So people always ask, though, like, what's your favorite book or what's the top thing you recommend? And for me, the book that I've always recommended is A More Beautiful Question by Warren Berger. And so as far as milestone episodes go, so the fourth episode of the Brainy Business way back in 2018 was called Questions or Answers. And like, which is better? Which is like, questions are better than answers. Sometimes answers matter, but, you know, often having the right question is so important. And so Warren Berger came on for episode 200 of the show. And so again, like I said, when this, you know how to fall in love with Questions, we're saying, like, I love questions, but not everyone does yet. And so this is the perfect as we get to these kind of milestone moments. And so like, why is it about falling in love with questions? Right. So I'm sure there's some thoughtfulness behind. Well, I know there's thoughtfulness behind book titles and things like that, but as you thought about this as that central thesis about not just like enjoying questions or being more open to questions, like, what is it about falling in love with them that really mattered as you thought about Questions.
- [06:55]
So let me take a step back and tell you a little bit about the book itself and we can get into this question of why Falling in love with Questions. So the book is all about how we can all develop a different and healthier relationship with the uncertainty in our lives. And it emerged during a time in my life when I was buckling under heavy questions about my marriage and career. And the advice that I found again and again in self help and pop psychology books was to just embrace uncertainty. And to me, this felt like a deeply unhelpful platitude. It's just like, what not. Thank you. Thanks so much for that. And luckily it was around that time that I discovered a much older book that contained what for me was much better advice, if not more challenging advice. And that book was called Letters to a Young Poet. And for those who maybe aren't familiar with it, this is a book of correspondence between the Austrian poet Rainier Maria rilke and a 19 year old aspiring poet, Franz Capus, from the early 20th century. And it's a book that counts people like Lady Gaga, Dustin Hoffman, Marilyn Monroe among its fans. And something that I learned while researching my book is Lady Gaga even has a line from it tattooed on her. So quite an interesting connection there. The whole book is beautiful, but I was struck by one part of it in particular, and this was a part where Capys, this aspiring poet, he's asking Rilke for all kinds of Advice not only about how to become a poet, but how to live his life. And Rilke famously responds, not with an answer per se, but by telling him how important it is to love the questions themselves, as if they were locked rooms or books written in a foreign tongue. And he also, he advises Capus not to search for the answers now and talks about the importance of living the questions. But Rilke, he never explained what he meant by living the questions now or how to think about loving the questions. He also wasn't thinking about how to do this in a time of AI, Google, smartphones, social media, influencers. So this book is really an exploration of how to fall in love with the questions of our lives, particularly the ones that can be painful, and especially in a culture in which so many of us have become addicted to fast, easy answers. And fundamentally, this book is also about my journey to explore this question through science, history, philosophy, poetry, religion, art, all of these different disciplines. But I think to go back to your question about love, you know, why did this grip me? Why did this grip Rilke? I think part of what attracted me about this idea of loving the questions relates to how Rilke conceptualizes love and how he describes love. And he describes love as like one of the most difficult tasks that any of us undertakes in our lives and yet also says that we must stay with what's difficult and really talks about how to love something, to love someone. It is the most challenging work that we do as humans and yet the most rewarding work that we do. And to me, that was a lot more realistic in terms of having a different relationship and loving a question. Right? Because it's not always going to feel good. It's going to be really hard sometimes. And sometimes you'd probably rather just kind of throw up your hands than continue to sit with the question. And I'll just say, too, just to give folks a little bit more framing in case you're hearing the start of this conversation and you're like, well, what? You know, still not really sure what you're talking about here. I wrote this book when I was facing down really painful uncertainty in my life, and I wanted a guide to help me navigate it. Not someone to give me the answers, but to help me understand the experience better and to kind of share wisdom from folks who had. Who had been there and come through it. So to research the book, I interviewed scientists, artists, religious scholars, historians and philosophers, talked to a professor with a mysterious illness who devoted her life to figuring out how to live better in uncertainty, an undocumented immigrant who is breaking free of the questions who had been holding him back. The grandson of a famous public figure who's determining who he is outside the shadow of fame, Zen Buddhist practitioners, psychedelic therapy researchers, and so many more. And so, anyway, we can get more into all of that, but just to kind of frame it up a little bit more and give folks a sense of where the kind of book began and the journey to really explore that central question at the heart of it.
- [12:19]
Yeah, I love all of that and just how robust it is. And when you start to, you know, embrace questioning and be open to it and what it can do for you, I think it definitely just shows all these paths and opportunities and different things.
- [12:39]
Melina Palmer
That you can take on.
- [12:40]
Elizabeth Weingarten
One of the things that was really.
- [12:43]
Melina Palmer
Enlightening for me, I would say, in.
- [12:45]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Reading the book, is, like I said, for me, I'm one of the people that I would say questioning is a little bit more natural. And I don't know if it's because I've been. I was actively doing it for a.
- [12:57]
Melina Palmer
Long time or being more open to it.
- [12:59]
Elizabeth Weingarten
But you talk about one.
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Melina Palmer
I love the charlatans of certainty. That's amazing.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
And you can talk about that. But one of the things here being when it has to do with this, like the cognitive need for closure, that cognitive closure that you need. And I was reminded of. And I love to bring up the Big Bang Theory whenever possible. But so Sheldon being one of the characters in the show, that, of course, he needs the closure of absolutely everything. And so Amy Farrah Fowler helps by having him go through a series of. It's like, you know, you sing the national anthem, but not the last note. And set up all the dominoes, but you can't knock them down. And you blow out the birthday candles, but she blocks the last one. And he's like, having such a hard time without being able to have the closure of all of these sort of items. And so I was reminded of that and this piece of where when I talk to people about questions, the thing that they really struggle with often is that or a revelation they have is that not every question needs to be answered. And that realization that actually, you know, some questions, their job is just to get you to the next question. And it's not about that one that you ask. It's something I talk with people about. But thinking about the cognitive closure piece and our desire for certainty, I think was really helpful in, I would assume, for people to get past understanding how the brain works when it comes to closure and certainty to Then be more open to questions. So I'm not necessarily phrasing this in the way of a good question, but I feel like you get where we're going and can now respond.
- [14:40]
Yes, I think it's, I think to pick up on what you're sharing. Yes, let me tell you a little bit. And folks, I'll share a little bit about the cognitive closure research just for people who maybe aren't as familiar. And I can also get into kind of the charlatans of certainty and some of the other things you brought up. But I think that's absolutely right. Just to kind of validate what you're saying, that, that having a better, deeper understanding of how the brain works, some of our behavioral kind of biases or tendencies is one important step in just being able to work around those tendencies or even just to kind of accept like, okay, you know, I'm a. I'm somebody that is going to really want certainty in my life or I really want control in this particular area. And just having that awareness enables you to then, you know, be able to take steps to maybe, to maybe address it in a way that's going to be most helpful for you. But as far as the need for closure, this is, as you mentioned, the desire that we have to kind of seek and then cling to answers in our lives. And at its core, closure, you can really think about it as the. Well, and this is what the researcher, Ari Kruglansky, the person who came up with this term, need for cognitive closure, what he told me, closure is the elimination of possibilities, of imagination, possible worlds, things that could be. And so when we experience this kind of need for cognitive closure, it can lead us to seize on an idea and freeze on the answer that we found, closing us off ultimately to other forms of exploration. And part of the reason, as you were getting at, part of the reason that this can be so kind of insidious is because we live right now in this culture in which so many of us, as I mentioned, have become kind of addicted to fast, easy answers. And I'll describe this. You know, everybody probably has a different definition for what this means, but fast, easy answers to me come not from a sometimes lengthy and challenging process of investigation, but from a shorter engagement. And that's often with an outsider who claims that they know you and what you want better than you know yourself. And they might also convince you that if you apply their answer or their solution to your own life and it falls short, well, then the problem is you instead of the answer itself. And I call the purveyors of these fast, easy answers the charlatans of certainty in the book. And these are people that often tie their promises directly to the deepest and most meaningful questions of the folks who they want to pull in. And what we see too is they're often purposefully manipulating others into believing that they have all of the answers. And just to use another analogy for this, we all know that ultra processed foods aren't great for us, right? And you can think of fast, easy answers like ultra processed information kind of extracted and condensed to excite our taste buds, so we want to consume more and more. And charlatans of certainty often take information that we all want and need to improve our lives, but then it's kind of condensed such that the nutrient value is kind of strong, stripped from it. And what we get ultimately is kind of the illusion of certainty on a topic that's, that's more complex. And it, you know, often kind of keeps us coming back for more content, whether it's a social media post or a weekend retreat or kind of a never ending series of courses. And ultimately it's the kind of content that just leaves us feeling addicted and unsatisfied and the only way to fill the void is, is continuing to pay or consume it. Right. So that's a little bit more about that kind of need for cognitive closure and how, I think, you know, on its own, fine, you know, we need, we've had this desire for certainty and closure, but in the context, I think, of this culture in which so many of us are being fed fast, easy answers, it can be even harder to kind of resist that natural tendency to want to seize on answers in the moment.
- [19:22]
Melina Palmer
Right.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
Well, and like you have mentioned throughout, kind of when we have these times of uncertainty, whether, you know, we look back to 2020 and at times of COVID and people were so uncertain about like, what's going to happen and how are things going to go and feeling like you don't have control and so kind of clung to all sorts of things to feel like you were having some sort of certainty and control when it was lost in other areas. And so I think that's a point to look back on and, you know, current times feel similar and in a different way not to get into those sorts of things. But there's uncertain times ahead for us all as well. And like in the midst of that, so I think it's important to transition with that being said into this idea of the how to be falling in love with the question. So I Talk a lot about why questions matter on the show and like why they're so important and something to look at. And you have so much great information in the book. And I think that the, the how piece is really critical and of course, you know, part of the title. One of my favorite quotes that was in the book, which I think was you quoting someone else, I believe, but saying that no one just spontaneously combusts and gets enlightened, essentially being the like. I think that's amazing and I love that as a thought and so same thing, right? We don't typically it's not just like ta da, right. There's some work that goes into it. So could you share a little bit about kind of that, you know, how we might go about falling in love with questions if we are someone who is all about certainty and always looking for answers, you know, what are those best steps to kind of take?
- [21:03]
Yeah, yeah, I will share that. Let me first just share kind of the, the arc of the book with folks just so they can get a sense of because there's so much about that kind of leads us up to that place of how do you fall in love with questions? So I divide it into three parts and part one is a little bit of what we were just talking about. So it's don't look for the answers now. How the search for easy answers fails us. And we're looking there at why we crave certainty. How our current culture has kind of exacerbated that desire and how the tendency debilitates our minds, bodies, societies. Part 2 Love the questions themselves, the rewards of committing to curiosity. That's where I'm sharing stories of people who show us the many benefits of living in questions and how their lives were transformed when they changed their relationship to uncertainty. And then part three, and we can kind of pick up a little bit on this. Live the questions. Kind of starting a questions practice. That's where we really start to talk about how to begin living in questions yourself. And kind of evidence backed tools to develop your own questions practice and a questions map to help you navigate your own uncertainty. And that's where my hope is that readers will find inspiration for different questions to ask themselves and ways to approach what might seem seem like a more mysterious pursuit. That kind of loving the questions and living the questions now. And as far as how do you fall in love with questions? So I think the first thing that I'll say to this is the answer to that question is going to be different for everyone and it would be awfully disingenuous if I told you that I have a definitive answer for how to fall in love with questions. And I have to be careful not to fall into that charlatan of certainty category. Right? So just follow my five step program and you'll, you'll, you'll never have to worry about uncertainty again. So no, I think one of the big messages of the book is this is really hard and it is something that is ongoing throughout our lives. It's not just a, hey, I'm, I did these things and all of a sudden uncertainty doesn't bother me and I am just, you know, I'm just, just happy. Go, lucky. So I'll just say that. And another big message of the book is like, that's okay, you know, like we're all dealing with this. A big part of my own journey was kind of trying to like let myself off the hook a little bit, that I had to somehow perfectly master this craft of navigating uncertainty. And I know you had Oliver Berkman on a female a little bit ago. And I love this idea of kind of imperfectionism, right, and kind of living your life through that lens. And I think that's a big part of what I want to impart to is like, there's no like, right or perfect way to, to do any of this. That said, I did find throughout my work and research that there are some helpful kind of ideas, concepts, tools, practices that, that really do seem to support folks who I think are doing this really well in this pursuit of loving the questions. And what I found is that there are kind of four Cs if you will, that really kind of undergird a life of spent kind of living in questions. And the first C is curiosity. An ability to kind of live in questions and love your questions is grounded in this mindset of curiosity. And often what that means is relating to the uncertainty in your life with more curiosity than fear. And by approaching uncertainty with curiosity, you start asking questions, allow you to see experience more clearly. The second C is conversation. Even though questions can exist on their own more often, they're kind of coming in pairs or groups. So they're parts of conversations that we have with ourselves and others. And these conversations, if we allow them to, can really kind of guide us through uncertainty. And you know, often this means kind of using a set of answerable questions to help us feel more safe and secure so we can get curious about our unanswerable questions. So the final two Cs are commitment and community. And a big part of this is committing to this kind of process, often a longer process of exploring our questions while observing which ones are no longer worthy of our attention. And one thing that I talk about in the book is the power of ritual and connecting us with community and creating more structure around uncertainty and really kind of helping us determine when we want to hold on to our questions and when to let them go. And I should say too here, this is probably an important time to mention kind of what types of questions are we talking about? Because questions is such a vast field. And the questions that we're talking about in the book, that I'm talking about in the book are what I would call like the big life questions. So these are the questions that we might have about our identity, relationships, purpose, meaning. These are not the questions fundamentally that you can answer by Googling, right. Or by asking an AI. These are the questions that tend to take longer to answer. And so those four Cs, curiosity, conversation, commitment and community are really the ones that I dive into most in the book. But out of all of them, the one that really kind of stuck out again and again was probably that community piece. And it's hard to pick one element that was, that was most important. But it really did, at least for me and for so many of the folks in the book that came up again and again as something that in addition to kind of developing a much deeper level of self awareness and closer relationship to yourself, which was fundamental and incredibly important, surrounding yourself with a community of people who would support and sustain you during periods of uncertainty was another really fundamental part of all of it. And I'm happy to share stories too of how that played out in the lives of characters.
- [27:57]
Yeah, well, and with that I think there's so question about the, that community piece. So is it that we people, it's having a support system of people that.
- [28:11]
Melina Palmer
Are going through something similar and are.
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Elizabeth Weingarten
Asking the same type of questions. And so it feels like I'm not alone in this. Other people are kind of working on this same sort of thing. And I know there are some examples of that in the book. Or is it more like, hey, I feel like I'm all over the place, I need a rock or something that's like tethering me in this like community that's going to be helping me to stay, stay grounded as I'm going into this space of, of exploration or, you know, door number three?
- [28:40]
Melina Palmer
Is it both?
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Elizabeth Weingarten
Huh?
- [28:42]
Yes, I think, I think it's both. Plus so many other things that vary based on the person. But I'll tell you, you know, community really evolved to enhance our sense of security during uncertainty. And research shows that a sense of being connected in community actually reduces our cortisol and. And it activates parts of our brain that indicate we're getting a reward and that we're safe. And it puts us in this kind of optimal place to explore questions rather than rushing towards fast, easy answers or kind of giving in to that need for cognitive closure, premature cognitive closure. And so I had this question when I started my research. What did communities designed to help people love questions look like? And what I found was that community didn't always look the way I thought it would. And through this exploration, you know, I'll tell you about a couple of people who I met, Megan Rundell and Joan Sutherland. And they were practitioners of Zen coons and Zen teachers who also hosted these koan salons for folks in the community to meet and kind of share their reflections about Zen and about these. These koans. And for folks who may not be familiar with Zen koans, I sure wasn't before I wrote the book. A koan is like an enigmatic tale or a paradox or a question, and it's designed to kind of take you past your. The thinking mind. And so an example of a koan, a famous example, is what is the sound of one hand clapping? And the idea with a koan is you can't understand it by just kind of thinking your way to the answer, which is hard for those of us that are. That are used to doing that. But you have to kind of live it. You have to carry it around with you and start to connect and relate it to the experiences that you're having in your life. And so Megan Rundell, one of the koan teachers who I met and who I profile in the book, she found coans at a time in her life when she was feeling really alone. She was a young woman at the time, searching for who she was and fundamentally really hungry for community and feeling like, you know, I think like many of us feel when we're in our late teens and early twenties, or at least I felt this way, just like, who am I? You know, like what. Like, who are my people? What am I doing? Am I, you know, I'm this way when I'm with other people, but am I really that way? And what do I want to do with my life? And am I ever going to. Am I ever going to figure these things out? And so, you know, it was at that time that she. That she found koans and she also, a little bit later on, met Joan Sutherland. And Joan had been pioneering these koan salons. And a big part of what made them really special was the idea that, like the koans themselves, these. These groups, these communities were opportunities for people to accompany each other in what they were going through. And the big insight here was, you know, across so many of communities that I found designed to help people hold questions was it really wasn't about meeting up with somebody and giving them an answer. Right. But it was just about being with each other, being with other people, witnessing their experience and seeing them for who they were in that moment. So I think, you know, to your point, it was these communities, a lot of it was about recognition that, yes, maybe we're holding similar questions or similar uncertainty together, but a lot of it was just the kind of being there and not trying to force someone else into an answer, which is harder, harder than it looks. Because I think, you know, a lot of us want to help the people in our lives that we see suffering, but sometimes the greatest help we can give them is just by sitting with them. So, you know, that was, to me, you know, a really. A kind of powerful insight. I will say, too, another piece that I found really interesting was that the questions embedded in these Zen koans had been around for centuries, Right. And so folks who I talked to really felt that there was something comforting, too, about being connected with all the people who had struggled with similar questions before them. So there were kind of entire communities that were embedded inside the questions themselves.
- [33:49]
And it's interesting because on one side, you could say, like, well, if no one has been able to answer this, so, like, how am I going to do it? And you could stress about it, right? But then being able to have that reframe, and I definitely, you know, reframe in the way that you think about the question and why you're asking it and why the answer matters and living around the question and knowing, I think, in that way, like you're saying with the. In the Meaning of Life, I keep, of course, thinking about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, right? And like, you know, the answer is 42. And like, well, okay, right. What is. You know, there are more questions, and that's sort of the point in that way.
- [34:29]
Melina Palmer
Right?
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Elizabeth Weingarten
But. And so knowing that it's not that there's one right answer, one of the tips, you know, that you have with these ideas in the book and kind of embracing that the point is in.
- [34:42]
Melina Palmer
I guess, whatever it means to you and the.
- [34:44]
Elizabeth Weingarten
What the like, your answer, my answer can be different from yours, and we can both be right, and that's okay. And, like, we're. We're kind of good in.
- [34:50]
Melina Palmer
In living in that.
- [34:53]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Before we get into the other tips. Right. So you have some of these ideas of things that people can do to help as they're working through those questions. I really appreciated some of the reframes you shared about the questions. And so knowing in the book, you talk about this question that you were struggling with in, you know, pandemic days of should I get a divorce?
- [35:12]
Melina Palmer
Right.
- [35:13]
Elizabeth Weingarten
And how you were able to think about once you were able to reframe the question, it actually allowed you to see the problem in a different way and kind of come to terms with it and have, you know, different conversations with your still husband. Yay on that. Right. So can you share a little bit about that way of reframing and thinking about when you get so stuck on something like, well, should I get a divorce? It's like, all you can think about in that way, but sometimes getting unstuck is about just reframing the question that you're hung up on.
- [35:47]
Yeah, definitely. And I'll. And I'll give folks a little bit of background on that question and on the relationship, which I explore kind of throughout the book. But at that point, when I'm facing this question of should I divorce my husband? We had been together for about five years, but we'd officially been married for only a few months. And what was happening at that time was just kind of a confluence of a lot of different factors for me. So for years, I'd had doubts about my relationship with him. And for anybody that's ever, you know, had doubts about their relationship, it's a really. It's a really tough place to be. Right? Because on the one hand, I felt so drawn to him, and I loved him kind of more than anyone. And the kind of fundamental challenge, and this was something that took a while to work out, was that we both expressed care in different ways. To me, care was about validation. So if you think about, like, you come home from a long day and you tell your partner about something that kind of went wrong at work, what I always want, wanted was the person to be like, oh, yeah, well, you definitely. You're in the right, you know, that whatever happened with your boss, like, they definitely were wrong. And, like, you're, you know, every. Everything you said is right, and they're such a jerk. And, like, you should, you know, you should be given some kind of medal for what you did, right? So that, like, just validation. And to him, care was actually about critical exploration. So not to say that he wouldn't be supportive in those moments, but a lot of times he would be like, oh, well, why do you think, you know, this person said that? Or like, oh, well, do you think maybe actually you, you know, you. You could have improved this thing? You know, so. So asking these types of questions in the moment that to me, I was like, well, I was expecting this. This type of response. And so, you know, I think I it. This difference. And of course, I just used kind of a. A superficial example there, but led to a lot of kind of misunderstanding and fighting and hurt on both sides because he also wasn't getting the care that he wanted from me in. In moments where he would come to me. And at the same time, you know, we had this connection over inquiry and a willingness to explore. Explore uncomfortable questions together. So it was just kind of this. This kind of push and pull of loving these parts of him, but also sometimes feeling like I couldn't stand these parts. And it was really, really hard. And so, you know, part of me thought that getting married would somehow kind of resolve all these questions. Um, and not. Not exactly sure why I thought that, but I think there's some perception, right, of like, once you get married, you make this big decision and things are just decided and you. And. And you're not as worried about, well, did I make the right choice? Um, but of course, the questions that I had about our relationship just kind of seemed to. To be amplified after that. And part of it was I had also recently left my job to work on a creative project, and that wasn't panning out. So I was burning through my savings and I was in this place of not knowing what I was going to do next, felt deflated that this project hadn't worked out. My husband was working at this startup that was demanding a lot of his time, and I. And I just felt, you know, for anybody out there who, you know, might also be dealing with a lot of uncertainty, a lot of the predominant feeling was like, loneliness, right? Like, I just was like, I was asking these questions. I did not know what to do. And I just felt so, like, afraid and lonely. And, you know, it was around that time that I came across Rilke and Letters to a Young Poet, which we've talked a little bit about. And I was struck at that time by how comfortable I felt with uncertainty and questions in my professional life, which perhaps you can connect with too, in applied behavioral science and Journalism questions or currency. Right. But this kind of completely broke down in my personal life. I hated these questions. They were my tormentors. All I wanted were answers, and I wanted to figure out how to get answers to those questions, and it made me want to understand how to change that. But ultimately, across the book, a big part of the journey was recognizing, as you said, that some of the questions I was asking early on, questions like, should I divorce my husband? Am I married to the right person? What I began to realize from talking to many others and research was that these questions were not the right questions for me. And part of that was what I get into in the book was they, you know, if you think of kind of what makes a great question, again, this is going to be something that's different for everyone. But something that I learned was that a great question is a question that really kind of opens you up to a larger field of possibilities for your life. And to go back to Joan Sutherland, this Zen leader who I was talking about, she told me that I'll quote her a good question will always make the room bigger or open a door in the room to let something else in or blow down the walls of a room entirely. And I loved that because I think it's a great way to think about what I've come to consider is what makes a great question. And again, that's. Is it opening you up to a greater field of possibilities, or is it kind of closing you off? Is it a binary? You know, that's a really good way to. To know if your question is. Is kind of narrow or vast or wide. And so if you go back to this question that I was asking, should I divorce my husband? You can easily see, well, that's like, you know, I have kind of yes or no. I have these two paths, right? And neither of those paths felt right to me. I didn't. If I was being honest, I didn't want to divorce him, but nor did I want to say no and have nothing change. That didn't feel like the right path. So ultimately, the question that I was asking kind of broke into a new question, which was something like, you know, how. You know, what would it look like for me to stay married to this person? And how would we kind of continue our relationship together? What, you know, how would we both need to change in order for that to kind of move forward? And so. And this was a long process that I. That I get into in the book and didn't just. I wasn't just spontaneously combusting into enlightenment as you said many, many conversations led to this point. And. But this was a big moment for me in realizing, oh, I could. I can still address this kind of root uncertainty and this discomfort that I'm feeling over something being off in our relationship and wanting to. Wanting to kind of work towards a resolution to that. And the best way to do that was with a better and different question.
- [43:58]
Melina Palmer
Perfect.
- [43:58]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Well, and the great thing is that we can ask a lot of questions on the path to whatever our. Right. Beautiful question to use Warren Berger there. Right. But of what's going to help us. And I think to know, as you shared there and in all the stories from the book, being able to show that there isn't one right question, just like there isn't one answer. And there are ways to just be open to asking more and to learning.
- [44:28]
Melina Palmer
And being curious and all of this.
- [44:30]
Elizabeth Weingarten
And to just like you say, when you fall in love with the idea of the question and know that that uncertainty is part of the process, I think it makes it so it's easier to exist with it and to know that the answer is not going to give you the peace that embracing the uncertainty can.
- [44:51]
Melina Palmer
Right. When you're willing to be open to.
- [44:53]
Elizabeth Weingarten
It and to, you know, live whatever your best life is, whatever that happens to mean and answer those questions, how. How they exist for you. I. Of course. So I want to give you an opportunity to respond to that, of course. Because I'm sure you have additional thoughts. So we'll do that first, and then we'll just kind of wrap it up.
- [45:12]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I will say, you know, the thing I do want to share with folks is it the experience of feeling uncertain, particularly when it's that flavor of kind of painful uncertainty. It's so aversive to us. And I'll just kind of wrap up by saying, I think one of the reasons is. And one of my favorite definitions of uncertainty from a couple of psychologists who were writing about how decision makers conceptualize uncertainty, is it's a sense of doubt that blocks or delays action. And one of the things that I offer up in the book is a kind of a questions map, which is a tool to help guide you through the uncertainty that you're experiencing in your life. And the idea is not to guide you to an answer. Right. But to guide you to some more clarity over what it is you might be looking for and whether or not you're asking the question you want to ask. And so you can kind of think of it as a series of prompts to help you navigate that uncertainty and work through it. So my hope is that again, throughout the book, been trying to kind of figure out how do you take some of the ideas that are a little bit more kind of rooted in philosophy or poetry and make them as practical as we can to kind of figure out how we can use them in our lives, but particularly in those moments where we feel really stuck, which is really, really hard. So I'll just say that. But happy to share any more about that too.
- [46:57]
Definitely. Well, I know that there is so much more that we could talk about with all the time and all the opportunity for questions. But you know, for everybody that is now so interested to learn more one about that questions map, which is so.
- [47:12]
Melina Palmer
Valuable and helpful, they can see what.
- [47:14]
Elizabeth Weingarten
That looks like when they get their copy of how to Fall in Love with Questions, they can check that and.
- [47:19]
Melina Palmer
Make their own ritual around it with advice from the wonderful Michael Norton, who's.
- [47:23]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Been on the show to talk about the ritual effect. So love that and that you talked.
- [47:26]
Melina Palmer
About him in the book. So for everyone who is now so.
- [47:29]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Excited to get their copy to learn more, to follow you, you know, what's their best path to do? So.
- [47:35]
Yeah, absolutely. So they can go to ElizabethWingarten.com and you can find more information about me and the book. And the book is sold wherever, wherever you can buy books.
- [47:45]
Perfect. Well, we'll of course have links in the show notes. And thank you again so much for joining me on the show. It was delightful to ponder on questions with you today.
- [47:55]
Well, thank you for your thoughtful questions, Melina. It was very fun chatting with you.
- [48:00]
Melina Palmer
Thank you again to Elizabeth Weingarten for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I could go on and.
- [48:09]
Elizabeth Weingarten
On and on about all the things I enjoyed from this book and conversation. But. But I think the thing that stuck.
- [48:15]
Melina Palmer
With me the most is the importance of embracing uncertainty. Even if that doesn't come naturally to you, and knowing that it's natural to want to have certainty because that's how we humans are all wired. While some feel the need for that.
- [48:30]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Cognitive completion more than others, we can.
- [48:32]
Melina Palmer
All learn to let go a little and embrace the uncertainty while falling in love with questions. Leaning into uncertainty is not easy, but it's very freeing. And in many cases to me, that means it's worth it with these big questions of meaning, feeling that freedom is where the power and peace come from.
- [48:52]
Elizabeth Weingarten
How do you do it?
- [48:53]
Melina Palmer
As Elizabeth shared, you want to look for those four Cs get curious, have conversations, make a commitment and find community. At the end of the book, she provided a list of ideas you can use as you learn to talk to yourself. In addition to creating that amazing question question map. While I'm not going to get into all of them here because there are.
- [49:13]
Elizabeth Weingarten
So many amazing ones in the book.
- [49:15]
Melina Palmer
And we did talk about a few here in the episode, a couple things.
- [49:18]
Elizabeth Weingarten
That they include here. Three top ones are to drop the reins.
- [49:21]
Melina Palmer
Just like a horse can feel your.
- [49:23]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Anxiety when you pull too hard on.
- [49:25]
Melina Palmer
The reins, letting them go and feeling calm is the best way to help the horse to calm down. An insight you can take to your own haunting questions that are holding you back and causing anxiety.
- [49:36]
Elizabeth Weingarten
What could happen if you dropped the reins? Let go of that control a little bit.
- [49:41]
Melina Palmer
Next way that you can be looking to talk to yourself ideas to actually write those thoughts down.
- [49:46]
Elizabeth Weingarten
This practice can help you to find clarity, connection and just get outta your own mind.
- [49:51]
Melina Palmer
Even if you never share them with.
- [49:52]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Anybody, even if you never go back and revisit them again, writing it down can really help. And the third thing, just, you know.
- [49:58]
Melina Palmer
Break away from that one right answer now.
- [50:01]
Elizabeth Weingarten
We talked about this one a lot today and I think it's a great place to to start as you look.
- [50:06]
Melina Palmer
To embrace and love questions. If there are no perfect answers or perfect questions, how does that open up your possibilities as you contemplate whatever it is you're seeking and look to reframe the questions, the answers and what they mean to you? There are more tips in the book, as I said, and so many other amazing insights and stories that can guide your question journey. When you get your copy of how to Fall in Love with Questions and I'm curious now, what has your relationship been with Questions in the past?
- [50:37]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Would you say that you love them.
- [50:39]
Melina Palmer
Or that they make you feel stuck and anxious?
- [50:42]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Come share it with me on social.
- [50:43]
Melina Palmer
Media as we celebrate 499 episodes together.
- [50:48]
Elizabeth Weingarten
You'll find me as the brainy biz.
- [50:50]
Melina Palmer
Pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes.
- [50:55]
Elizabeth Weingarten
To make it easy as well as.
- [50:57]
Melina Palmer
Links to my top related past episodes and books including how to Fall in.
- [51:01]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Love with Questions, Ways to get in.
- [51:02]
Melina Palmer
Touch with Elizabeth and myself, and more.
- [51:04]
Elizabeth Weingarten
It's all waiting for you in the.
- [51:06]
Melina Palmer
App you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 499.
- [51:13]
Elizabeth Weingarten
And thank you again to Elizabeth Weingarten.
- [51:15]
Melina Palmer
For joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you join me Tuesday.
- [51:21]
Elizabeth Weingarten
For the 500th brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun.
- [51:27]
Melina Palmer
You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and.
- [51:31]
Elizabeth Weingarten
Learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
- [51:40]
Melina Palmer
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.