← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
500. Celebrating Episode 500 with Pat Flynn
00:56:20
In this milestone 500th episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer celebrates with the incredible Pat Flynn, host of the renowned Smart Passive Income podcast and author of the upcoming book, Lean Learning. With over 60 million downloads...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 500 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Pat Flynn, host of Smart Passive Income, which has over 60 million downloads and two popular YouTube channels with billions of views and downloads between them. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:27]
Pat Flynn
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:43]
Melina Palmer
Hello.
- [00:43]
Hello everyone.
- [00:44]
My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast, y' all. I can't believe we're really here. 500 episodes? You kidding me right now? We have been hanging out together weekly since July 6, 2018, which increased to twice a week in October of 2022. In that time, the show has received, as of the time of this recording at least, which is still a bit in advance of the airing, 1,493,625 downloads. So close to one and a half million. And we have downloads in more than 170 countries. I haven't done this in a while, but it's fun to shout out and give thanks to listeners around the world. So really quickly, thank you to the top 10 countries with downloads, which are of course the US followed by the UK, Canada, Australia, India, Germany, South Africa, the Netherlands, Mexico and Spain going into the top 20. We can also give shout outs to everyone tuning in from Brazil, Sweden, France, Taiwan, Ireland, Switzerland, New Zealand, United Arab Emirates, Denmark and Israel. And we always shout out the top states with downloads too since some of them are quite large. And California is still overwhelmingly the state with the most downloads, followed by Texas, New York, Washington, Florida, Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina and Pennsylvania, which only has six more downloads than the next highest state of New Jersey, which is pretty crazy when you think about it all time, right? So shout out also to the next states on the list of Georgia, Colorado, Minnesota, Massachusetts, Arizona, Michigan, Oregon, Wisconsin and Indiana to round out the top 20. Wherever you're listening from, however long you've been here, I want to genuinely, deeply thank you for tuning in to the show. For everyone who has subscribed, shared on social media, emailed me or otherwise reached out to let me know what has resonated and what's worked for you as you've applied the insights into your life and work, thank you so much. You're amazing and I appreciate you. Let's keep that brainy goodness going for another 500 episodes, huh? I evaluated a lot of options for what to do to celebrate this milestone, and when I found myself with the serendipitous opportunity to interview the amazing Pat Flynn with his new book, Lean Learning coming out next week, I knew it was meant to be and the perfect fit for episode 500. So let me tell you a little bit about Pat. Since you listen to podcasts and especially if you're an entrepreneur, you've potentially heard of his. It's called Smart Passive Income and it is amazing. That podcast has more than 60 million downloads and he also has his SPI online community for digital entrepreneurs. He also co invented the Switchpod, which is a minimal, versatile handheld tripod and hosts a the Deep Pocket Monster and short pocket monster YouTube channels which are about Pokemon and they have over 3 million subscribers and billions of views between them. He's also the founder of Card Party, a large scale live event for the community of Pokemon collectors. Pat also serves as an advisor to dozens of companies and is a sought after keynote speaker. I can attest his session at Social Media Marketing World was fun. Fantastic. Highly, highly recommend. He's also a father, husband and lifelong learner from San Diego who's built a reputation as one of the most influential voices in digital entrepreneurship. Through this diverse portfolio of businesses and award winning podcasts and newsletters and YouTube channels and thriving communities, he reaches and inspires millions of people each month. Now do you see why I called him the Amazing Pat Flynn? Trust me, this is going to be an awesomely fun and inspiring conversation about his work and new book, Lean Learning. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with me and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@thebrainybusiness.com 500. Now let's jump right in. Pat Flynn, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
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Pat Flynn
Okay, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.
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Melina Palmer
Yes, I'm delighted. Thank you so much and appreciate. I feel like we have to start maybe with shout out to Mike Stelzner for Social Media Marketing World and making all the things happen, even though he didn't realize. But I'm sure lots of people jump on the ability to go talk to you when you're at Social Media Marketing World or any event.
- [05:42]
Pat Flynn
Well, Mike. Mike and I are in a mastermind group and one thing that I know about him is he knows that when you just bring people in a room together who Share common interests or who share the same values or goals, like, great things will happen. And this is exactly that. You and I connected at this event, and then we were next to each other on the bus on the way to one of the speaker parties, and then we connected the next day. And like, here we are on a podcast now, and you're helping to support my book, and I'm just so appreciative of that. So thank you, Michael.
- [06:07]
Melina Palmer
Appreciate you.
- [06:08]
Yes, for sure. Well. And, you know, for everyone who doesn't yet know you, I feel like there are so many avenues that people could know you from, which is very cool. But for everyone who doesn't yet know.
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Who you are, can you share a.
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Little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [06:23]
Pat Flynn
Sure. So my name is Pat Flynn, and I live in San Diego. Primarily a husband and father of two. My kids are 15 and 12 now. So we're at that amazing time in life where a lot of things are happening all at once. So it's just incredible. But I'm grateful because the way that my wife and I raised our kids was based around designing a business and lifestyle around them. And that really all started in 2008 when I got laid off, in fact. And I'm so grateful for getting laid off, even though I didn't know it at the time. I was in the world of architecture, and it was what I. It was my passion. It was what I love to do. And then in 2008, I got let go. And to initially survive and then later thrive, I had built a business teaching people how to pass a particular exam in the architecture industry called the lead exam. And I built the website in 2008. This was back when, like, blogging was, like, the main thing to do. And I had built a blog to help people pass this exam. And it took off, and lo and behold, it started generating more revenue than what I did at my day job. And people started asking me how I did that. So I started posting everything I was learning, things I was doing wrong, how much money I was making, how many customers I was gaining on smartpassiveincome.com, which later became a YouTube channel and then a more popular podcast. And I've since written books and have done public speaking all over the world to teach online business and do it in a way where it's like, you can serve in the way that you know how to do best. And when you help others first, you will get back. Right. I try to teach this sort of serve first approach. I'm Actually, even wearing a surfer shirt right now, actually, I live it, I breathe it, I teach it. I want to teach that to my kids. And every time I've leaned into a space, a niche or market, and just kind of delivered as much as I could, I've always gotten that back. And so a lot of people today, more so than even smart, passive income, now they know me for a recent focus on the Pokemon stuff, which is interesting. So in 2020, my kids got me into Pokemon. They outgrew it. I did not. I became a creator in the space, and I now have 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube, on. On my channel, almost a billion views. And then I host a couple live events, speaking of live events called Card Party each year, and this year, we have an estimated 6,000 Pokemon nerds coming to enjoy each other's company and buy, sell, trade, have fun, that sort of thing. So I do a lot of things. And, you know, my book Lean Learning is a really, a response to a lot of people who've asked me, like, how are you just learning how to do all these new, different things so quickly? Right. I invented something in 2019 called the SwitchPod. It was a tripod, which I have, uh, right here. And I had never invented anything before, but I have this process, this framework of approaching things that allows me to move rather quickly and acquire skills quite fast. And, you know, all while the purpose of doing it is just to help others faster and help others better. And it's not perfect. I make a lot of mistakes, but I've learned to embrace those mistakes along the way versus try to shy away from them. So if. If anybody asked me, like, what do you do, Pat? Like, I have to go through the whole thing again. And my wife, like, rolls her eyes. She goes, okay, here. He's going to go through the whole story again. So it's a lot. And I also feel like it's just the beginning. Like, everything that I've learned has led itself into performing well into the next thing, into the next thing, into the next thing. So who knows where the next thing is, but wherever it is, I'm going to try to show up in my best format.
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Melina Palmer
Oh, absolutely.
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And I think, you know, so serve first. Love that you have the shirt. And do you have every color of serve first or just the.
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Pat Flynn
No, just. Just this one. I actually. There was an artist, his name was F Dot. He spoke at my first event, actually, and he has an amazing story where he lived in an apartment and the whole thing burned down. He lost everything. And as an Artist. It was really hard because he had a lot of his stuff there, but he had one thing that he saved and it was inside. Remember those bed scanners where you'd scan paper, but it was like not one that you sift a piece of paper through, but it's like a bed scanner. There was actually a piece of artwork stuck in there that didn't get burned and, and it was a lettering he did of the word optimist. And it like really was a sign for him to always look at the bright side of things. So I've connected with him and he's the artist behind this, this shirt and he's incredible. He's done art all around the world now.
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Melina Palmer
Oh, amazing.
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And just a, you know, Phoenix type of story, right?
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With that and literally.
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Yeah. Well, here at the Brainy Business we end every episode with be thoughtful and it's signature line and everything that. So it's very aligned in that like, serve first reciprocity aspect. And you of course, you know, talk about reciprocity in the book and you know, throughout the work that you do. And I can attest that you are just the kindest, most like, thoughtful human that I've met in a really long time and just putting in the effort to remember like names. And you made a video for my son. Like, so I came up to the world here, right? Like so I came up and said, okay, my, my 12 year old will be devastated if I don't come say hello to you because the Pokemon side of things. And I knew you from smart passive income and you know, you made a video for him and my husband and gave some cards to people. I mean, so nice and amazing and thoughtful and knowing how much that comes back. And in your talk that you gave at Social Media Marketing World this past year, which I loved. Such a great talk. So one hearing in the book that you turned down so much public speaking for a very long time, like opportunities for that. I think for people to understand that you can adjust and focus what you're going to work on and not feel like you have to learn everything all at once, like you talk about in the lesson in the book and be good at everything. Right. And how if we can kind of turn that into that story of some of your public speaking which you talk about in the book, I think that would be really great for people to know that when you feel like you have to learn everything, you don't make very much progress. But this kind of gets into this.
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Concept of lean learning.
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And I know I have touched on Everything possible. And so however you want to jump into the story, please do. I'm just too excited about it.
- [12:43]
Pat Flynn
No, no, there's a lot to unpack there. You know, we live in a world now where information isn't as valuable as it once used to be. It was valuable because we didn't have it. We didn't have access to it. And if you, for example, purchased an Encyclopedia Britannica, you were seen as smarter because you literally have access to this stuff now. But now we all have access to the same information on our phones. And not only are we continuing to hoard all that information because our brains aren't evolved to understand how to sift through all this. We're being force fed it through algorithms and other things and we're just getting so confused. And one, one concept I talk about in the book is junk sparks. This idea of like, yes, it's cool to get inspiration and be connected to all these things, but like, if we don't control ourselves, we're going to go this way and then that way and we're going to try to want to learn everything because we see other people doing it and we're just going to lose control and our energy is divided everywhere. So it's, it's really a matter of, I mean, if we were to boil this down, you know, a lot of great books are boiled down to like one or two things, right? Like Mel Robbins books, like five second rule is just like count down from five and go do the thing. Like, oh, you need a whole book for that. Yeah, but it's like the research and the, you know, and her new Let them theory book. It's just like, yeah, let, just let people be who they are. Like, don't, don't worry so much about that. Okay, well, here's a whole book about it. And same thing with this one. It's like, just take action. Like your learning will come from the doing of the thing we. If you look at like a pie graph that includes all the things there is to, to know about a certain topic, there's only a sliver of that that you need to take that first step. And all the learning will come from you doing the thing and trusting the fact that there are plentiful resources for you when you hit that next step, when you hit that next, you know, that next rung in the ladder. And it's this difference between just in case learning, which is what we've all been doing, just in case learning, and just in time learning, knowing what your next step is, and Just focusing on that and learning and only absorbing things that are related to that. This is how we progress faster. So going back to the public speaking, I mean, this is. Was a huge deal for me because I turned down every talk in the beginning. I was getting very popular as a blogger and podcaster, and people wanted me to come on their stages to speak. And I said no immediately because I was deathly afraid, afraid of going up in front of people in person. Until 2011 came by, and my friend Philip Taylor, who was launching an event called fincon, very popular event, the Financial Blogger Conference. And he was like, pat, I need your help. I would love for you to come and do a little breakout session. It'll just be for, like, 30 or 40 people, and I'd love for you to show up. I know you don't normally speak, but this would be a huge favor to me, and I think it would be great for you. You know, he was a champion of me and my work and my life, and he wanted. And he knew that I could grow as a speaker if I just, you know, had the chance to. And he was giving me that chance, and I wanted to help him out. So I said yes. And this is what I call a voluntary force function in the book, where you kind of put yourself in a pressure situation to finally do the thing that you want to do, right? Something with a date that's incoming, and then you're going to be able to focus. And I was. I then learned from a bunch of people who have spoken before what books to read and kind of what to look out for and try to kind of get my way into that space. About two weeks before the event, PT Philip Taylor called me and said, pat, our closing keynote dropped out. Like, I need you to come and do the closing keynote for our event. And this was gonna be in front of, like, 300 or 400 people. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, sure, I'll do it. Sure. And I. I mean, after I finished, you know, patting down all my sweat, I got to work and I delivered a talk that wasn't the best, but it was good enough. And since then, I've spoken, I think, on 350 different stages. I've gotten over a million dollars and speaking fees. And it all started because I put myself in that situation, and I got some help and also encouragement from others along the way, which is. Which is all key. But it wasn't something that I learned in the beginning with everything else. Right. If you look at my chronological order of how I did things 2008 was the blog. Once I got systems going there and I started to understand that, then I moved on to YouTube in 2009, the podcast in 2010. Speaking in 2011. My first book came out in 2013. My first course came out in 2017, my first community in 2020. So these things kind of progressed one into the next, where when people see all that, they're like, oh, I want a business like Pat. So I'm going to do all of those things. And then you're just going to spread yourself too thin. Every single platform can be successful if you put yourself and actually fully focus on it. It's where if you only show up 10% on TikTok, then people are only going to get 10% of you. How are people going to connect with you there? Right. You need to show up 100% somewhere, build those systems, maybe hire a team or get tools or even just do the reps so you can get faster and better and optimize that and start to understand that to then get time back to put into something else. So a lot of this is energy allocation, time allocation. That's. That's a lot of this as well. And again, we live in a world now where we're just so bombarded with noise everywhere. I mean, I wrote this book for my kids. I mean, they're in the dedication because 15 and 12, I mean, they're about to enter this world. It's so different than the one you and I grew up in and entered as, you know, as people going to college or entering the workforce. And it's so important to be able to navigate this, or else you're just going to get lost. I mean, the world is so different now. We don't need. As a creator, what I love about this is there's enough information already. Anything that you ever could say has already been said, but nobody's ever said it like you with your experience. So if you're listening to this, you're an entrepreneur or a creator. This. This is an amazing time because if you can lean into storytelling, how you wrap or package that information, then you will be able to stand out. Because trying to come up with anything new today is difficult unless you put yourself into it and your own unique experiences. So, anyway, I'll stop talking, because that's a lot, but hopefully I covered some of what you wanted to talk about.
- [18:33]
Melina Palmer
Because I started with a lot. I had such grand visions of was like, I'm gonna ask this, and I want to make sure to touch on this. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. So. And I totally just said way too many things as.
- [18:45]
Pat Flynn
But that's a great lesson, right? Like, you could plan for something, but only when you do it will you find out really where it's gonna go. And as long as you have your North Star in place, which I know you do, you want to have the best episode possible, you want to collect some of these stories, then it'll be great. And we're learning as we go together, which. Which I think is great. Verses again, building the whole business plan, and then usually never even taking any action at all because you're so overwhelmed. Right. And so, I mean, this was on the calendar. You knew it was going to happen. So you were going to show up, I was going to show up. It was going to happen no matter what.
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Melina Palmer
Yes.
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Pat Flynn
And that's. That's the importance of a deadline and your calendar to push yourself to do stuff. That's a part of lean learning as well.
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Melina Palmer
Oh, yes.
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And I love that you give the example of like, okay, so it's on the calendar. Someone asked me, I've got two weeks to do the thing, so I better learn how to do this real fast. And actually, as we say that when I launched my podcast in 2018, I was trying to figure out. So actually kind of along the path of what you were saying there, where people can look and say, wow, like, Pat does all these amazing things and is successful on YouTube and books and a community and a podcast and this and that, and it's easy to look at all of it and say, I have to be in all those places and maybe one will take off first and then I can lean into it. But if you do it that way, the chances that any one of them is going to make enough progress to be worth it is very, very, very, very low. And don't want to say impossible, but I mean, pretty darn close to that. And so I had my business, and I met with a very successful podcaster at the time in 2018, and I said, I can see the empire at the end. I see where I'm going, but there's like 85 paths to get there, and I'm not sure which one is the right one to start with. She had said to me, like, I never tell anyone to do a podcast because they're a lot of work, but you need to go do this yesterday. And that was in May, mid May. And there was an event I wanted to, that I was going to early July. And so it's like, and I wanted to have business cards and say, I have a podcast. I was like, I needed to launch before that. So I had like six weeks to. And I totally rebranded. I'm like Google how to podcast. Like, how would I even do this? And found a team with editors and whatnot. I started with not editing opposite of.
- [21:02]
What you talk about that you did with your show.
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But I had to, right? I had to do the thing. And I went live with my first three episodes on July 6th of 2018 and went weekly ever from there and committed to do every week for a year. And then I can determine if it's working or not. But this is like most important thing. That's what I have to do. And like late nights and talking to myself in the dark, assuming someone's gonna laugh eventually.
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Pat Flynn
Did you record in your closet? I know a lot of podcasters who record in a closet. Cause the sound better in there.
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Melina Palmer
I didn't, but I know that I had this room that was available in the house and actually for us too, as we were moving. Like, we had put in an offer on a house on the day that I got that advice from her. And so we were also having to move in the midst of starting this new podcast and redoing all my branding and all the things.
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Pat Flynn
Everything and everything all at once. Always.
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, right. But it. But it works. And so with that, were you saying there's a little bit of feeling like we need to know everything just in case.
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Right.
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And you talked about this a little bit versus just in time. So that being like, I could have known all the how to do all the podcasting stuff just in case someday I'm going to start a podcast and I need to know all this information. But instead knowing there's a place to go find it when I need it, we really embrace the power of not yet here. And say, like, YouTube would be interesting, but not yet. Because the podcast is first and because I committed to the year, I can not yet everything while I'm working just on the podcast.
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Pat Flynn
Yeah. I call that the joy of opting out. Right? There's fomo. Right? Which is why we do a lot of this stuff where we collect a lot of this information. And there was once a point where people were like, no, not fomo, Jomo. Joy of missing out. But I feel like that's just kidding ourselves. Like, we don't. We're not joyful that we're missing out on stuff. Right. We're just kidding ourselves. Rather, the joy of opting out. It is Me making this choice to say, I see that but not right now, or like you said, not yet. I love that. And it's like you're, by doing that, by saying no to this, you are re upping the yes that you once made. You are recommitting to the thing that you committed to. And I love how you have a time boundary of a year. I did a shorts experiment recently where I said I'm going to go daily for 60 days straight and I'm going to. My buddy Alex said this really well. He's like, count uploads, not likes or count uploads, not views, just you. If you do what you said you're gonna do, no matter the result, you've won because then you can assess whether or not you want to continue or not. So I did this shorts experiment. It was a Pokemon channel, brand new. I didn't link to it from anything else I had. I just wanted to experiment. And I was opening a pack of cards every day and I created this little jingle. Should I open it or should I keep it sealed? Is the jingle. Some people have maybe seen that or heard it. And day 30 goes by and I'm just getting hundreds of views per day. And I'm what once took, you know, maybe 45 minutes to an hour to edit each day now is only taking 20 minutes. So number one, by just doing it constantly and getting the reps in, you can't help but get faster and better and more efficient. But also on social platforms and on YouTube, on podcasting, you're also collecting data during this time. And the more you put out there, the more data you're getting that informs your next move. So day 30 came by. I was only getting 200, 300 views. And then all of a sudden on day like 33 or 34, one of those videos exploded. It hit 750,000 views. And ever since that day, all videos have arisen. And now if I get a million views after 24 hours on a new video, that's like average, which is bonkers. And one video I published a couple weeks ago had has 37 million views. Melina. That is more than anything that I've ever created in my entire life. And it took 15 minutes to create because again, I've gone through the reps and I know, like I know the process. I have the same jingle and a master template file because I've become very efficient with this. And now across TikTok, Instagram and Reels, these videos have nearly 2 billion views, have now a five figure income just on their own from ads and brand sponsorships. And it's allowed me to connect and collab with people who I never thought I'd be able to do in because I did a 60 day experiment and I said I was going to do it and I stuck with it. So kudos to you for sticking with your podcast. Congrats on episode 500. A lot can happen when you focus.
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Melina Palmer
Yes.
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Yeah, absolutely. So congrats to you as well. Amazing. And glad you opened it and didn't keep it sealed. I don't know exactly how that'll tie in with the.
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Pat Flynn
Yeah, my wife would say otherwise, just like sometimes you should just keep your mouth sealed.
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Melina Palmer
That's so funny. So how do you. What advice do you give to people to help them to prioritize? So in my case, I had a guru that had a very successful podcast that said, you should do this. Like, I never tell people, but you need to was what she said to me.
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Right.
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Pat Flynn
Because they saw something in you, right? Yeah.
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Melina Palmer
And that was that permission to, like, jump in and say, well, like Natalie said, so I should go do that thing.
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Right.
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And I've shouted her out before.
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Natalie Ekdahl of the Biz Chicks podcast.
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But that said, you should go do that thing.
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Right?
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And I think a lot of times people are waiting for someone to say they should lean into something. But if you're trying to decide, you know, is it YouTube or do I focus on my email or do I.
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Do the blog or the podcast or.
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This, like, what advice would you give someone to choose as they were going to narrow and pick, you know, one thing to start with?
- [26:47]
Pat Flynn
Yeah, I mean, first of all, having Natalie in her corner is amazing. And in the book, there's an entire chapter about having champions in your life. And there's. There's a few different types of champions, right? There's the emotional champions, like friends and family who will be there for you. There's your peers and colleagues, and you have your mentors. And either way, like, you can't read the label when you're inside the bottle. So you have to have outside perspective and when you can get it from somebody who knows you and sees kind of stuff that you can't and also has gone down these paths before, like, that's such a huge advantage. Right. When I, When I was learning how to do a triathlon, right. I never raced before. I never biked or swam in a race. I've done runs. But I found a person who had done triathlons to coach me so I wouldn't A, injure myself, but B, I can just get to that result faster. And I had a race coming up in six months. Voluntary force function. So in terms of understanding what to do, a lot of it is related to, well, what have other people done or seen before that they can point me in this direction and give me permission? When I coach a lot of people, a lot of times they answer that. Like, the response I get after I coach and ask questions is like, yeah, I know. I thank you for letting me know. I, I'll go do that thing that I knew I was going to do anyway. I just needed somebody to tell me, right? Like you're saying other times. We have so much on our plate currently. This is, this is a common problem. We need to lay it all out, right? And if you take a post it note or a pack, a pack of post IT notes, which I always have handy, and you just start writing down all the things you do, like even maybe today, for the next 12 hours, or as you work, as you work, write down every little action that you take and you're, you're going to start to see this collection of post it notes kind of pile up and you're going to start to go, oh my gosh, like, I do all this stuff. And then you can actually go into the sea of post notes that you have, look around and go, okay, what is necessary here and what is not necessary, right? So before you start seeing what to do next, ask yourself, what can you stop doing first? This way, we don't just add more time on top of time that we're already using, but we actually reallocate certain time that we have elsewhere that might not be important. And that's a big thing, right? We just usually default to what should I do next? Versus what should I stop first? It's a huge sort of mindset shift, and it just takes a little practice. It takes some understanding, and maybe hearing it today on the podcast, it'll open up some more time for you. And then asking yourself, like, what is the highest leverage thing that would A, help me get results that I want, but B, that I could stick with, right? Those don't always match up. And it's important to try to find the thing that does or make a compromise or negotiation so that those Venn diagrams overlap. Because the highest leverage thing might be the thing you dread the most, in which case you're never going to do it, but also you might love doing something that doesn't move the needle at all. And so again, you need to try to find that happy medium and again, doing kind of like what you and I did, which is say, say, okay, here's what I'm gonna do. Here's my hypothesis that if I stick with this for X number of days, that it's going to work. And here's what, here's what it would look like if it did. And then just clear the Runway for that. Right. And get those reps in and, and, and, and do it so that you can learn and kind of adjust or persist or pivot, as I say, into it. So, you know, a lot of times we don't end up where we thought we would, but it wouldn't have gotten to there if you hadn't at least taken that first step and made a decision. In many cases, actually with, with a lot of my students, when they have, like, decisions on where to go, we literally just flip a coin or, or a dartboard kind of situation, because you just need to move right as. As you kind of like, wait every day to decide whether this is good or not. Like, none of it's good if nothing happens. Right. So action over kind of consumption, really.
- [30:41]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. There's actually a lot of scientific research into that. And especially where. So in a decision from something like the coin flip, where it feels like it's that, like the sign from the universe that it was the thing I was supposed to do, people will, like, lean into it harder. Whereas if you made a choice and you have that, it's called the counterfactual thinking of the, like, what ifs and why didn't I and if only and this, that you can kind of get stuck in your own way if you make a choice and, you know, you could go back to the other thing, that you will kind of just ruminate and dwell in a way that's not great. But even if you flip the coin and you could have done anything else but you just, like, go into it, you will be more likely to be committed to it in a lot of cases and actually feel better about what you're doing. Especially if you're the type of person that kind of believes in that, like, sign from the universe sort of approach.
- [31:36]
Pat Flynn
Yeah. And sometimes that's the right way to go about it. Like the. Your gut feeling, as they say.
- [31:42]
Melina Palmer
Right.
- [31:42]
Pat Flynn
And a lot of times our first gut feeling is often the right feeling. Right. But again, that combined with champions and people who will hold you accountable and look out for you, combined with knowing that those resources for the next step is available. I mean, as long as you keep going, you're pretty much guaranteed to get to a point that is way beyond where you are now. It's just a matter of, like you said, make a decision, get the right help and guidance, have those sort of guardrails in the place that. Not yet to this, not yet to that, and give yourself a chance and great things will happen. Right. You're kind of placing a bet. It's not. It's never guaranteed, but you're stacking the cards in your favor as much as possible so that when you place that bet, things are likely to kind of return for you. Versus what a lot of us doing is we're kind of placing bets without even looking at our cards. We're just kind of playing poker blindly.
- [32:30]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. One of the things I say in my first book is like, understanding behavioral economics makes it to where you can at least be throwing darts where everyone else is just throwing noodles at the wall.
- [32:41]
Pat Flynn
Yeah. Oh, that's good. Plus, it's a waste of food. Like, don't do that.
- [32:44]
Melina Palmer
Oh, I know.
- [32:45]
Don't do that.
- [32:45]
I mean, we need those noodles. I love the whole book. And that being said, I. I really resonated, really liked the chapter on micromastery and quantum leaps and particularly how you talk about rowing in the power tens, because I haven't really seen that come, come through. And you know, being from Washington, the shout out to go dogs. Yeah. I went to the University of Washington, so shout out. That was good school. Yeah. Yeah. So can you share a little bit about that? You know, the micro mastery and quantum leaps and how they work to help have these like, bursts and of productivity.
- [33:33]
Pat Flynn
Yeah, that's really what this is about is while you're going and you're finally kind of making progress, if you want like a boost or surge in your results, you implement some of these kinds of things. So micro mastery, for example, we'll go back to the speaking thing. Once I knew that I was going to be speaking often and I was getting paid for it, I wanted to take it seriously. I wanted to be a master of it. Instead of just going, okay, I'm going to just do my best every time. And that's like such a general way to approach things. Right. If you then break down the skill of public speaking into all the different components, from storytelling, to where you are on stage, to what do you do with your hands, to the intonation of your voice, to the slides. I mean, there's a lot of components. Micromastery means when you go into your next talk, pick one of those things and just learn Everything you can about it. Try to find the best ways to go about doing that. So, for example, when I was learning how to public speak and I was really focused on my slides, I was micromastering on my slides. I said, okay, what makes a great slide? I started doing research on that. I started watching a lot of presentations with slides in mind, paying paying attention to my energy levels and asking around, running surveys. And I eventually found out that people hate slides that are just walls of text, right? Just death by PowerPoint they call it. And so I was watching a lot of presentations and found my own style where it was just an image with one or two words on it to almost be a marker for me in my storytelling, but also just be something visual that people can remember related to the thing I was talking about. And so I just started experimenting and playing with that, and that's now become my. My style. And it's not something that I don't even have to think about anymore. It's just a part of who I am. Because I. I had that time to focus on it. Another time I focused on what to do with my hands, like, getting so granular that it was okay. What do people do with their hands that really helps a presentation or. Or not, right? A lot of people will do presentations with their hands kind of clasp like this, and it kind of comes across as either defensive or. Or kind of nervous, right? When. When hands are kind of together like this all the time versus T. Rex arms. Yes, T. Rex arms versus kind of, you know, kind of overdoing the hands on a stage in front of thousands of people, like, kind of over exaggerating, but then kind of using this to kind of really under, like pinpoint and even amplify what it is that you're teaching. And I've learned those things. I watched them. I got in training on that. Even hiring a person to literally watch me and tell me what I should do with my hands or what I was doing wrong with it. Like, getting to that level, then stacks that skill once you learn it, into the next talk, into the next talk. And this is how you get much better. It's like a lot of athletes and even musicians do this, right? When. When musicians try to get better at something, they don't just like, play the same song over and over and over and over again. They focus on a little part of it. And then even within a little part, they focus on one bar. And even on one bar, they focus on one note. And they practice their scales over and over again just so that that's ingrained in them. And then when they play those scales in the same key signature and music, then it's like it's automatic at that point. Right? It's the same thing for us and how we learn anything. So that, that's micro mastery in a micro moment for you. Quantum leaps. There's, there's a couple of ways to go about quantum leaps. A quantum leap is like a huge, bold sort of situation, right. Versus a micro thing that we were talking about. The story I talk about in the book is when Nathan Barry, who's the founder of kit, decided that he was going to pass on his very successful six figure business to focus all in on developing Kit, a software company, an email software company that I'm not an advisor for. And that was a tough decision for him, but it was a bold leap that he had to take and a bold move that allowed Kit to turn into a business that was making $20,000 a month to now basically a million dollars a month as a software company because he, he took that leap. But my favorite kind of quantum leap is, is one where you don't have to take like the giant leap of faith, but you take within a moment a heightened level of, of, of focus and energy, almost like you power through for a certain period of time, knowing that that time is going to end. And the example I use in the book actually comes from when I used to be on the Cal rowing team. I was on the lightweight rowing team. If you're looking at me, you can obviously tell that, um, and in the boats with the, these are the boats with like eight people. And then the ninth person is like the tiny person who's yelling the commands. And when I was rowing in these boats, we, we would do something called power tens during races, which is, you know, we're, we're, we're in a rhythm and during the race and we're, you know, stroke, stroke, stroke. And as soon as we want to like have a burst of speed, we implement what's called a power 10. So the coxswain, the person yelling the commands, says, okay, power 10 in three, two, one, go. And then every stroke for 10 strokes, you kind of just give everything you got for 10 strokes and 10 strokes only somehow you find more energy because you know that that's going to end. And what happens in the boat is you just like, it's like butter. It's like knife through a butter. It's like you just fly. But the problem is if you did a power a thousand throughout the entire race, you would burn out. But if you never implemented a Power 10, you'd get left behind. So in our lives, every once in a while, we need that, like, that. That moment of. Of heightened energy and focus to, like, just crank on the thing that we're doing right. So it might be. For example, if you podcast every single week, a Power 10 for a podcaster might be okay. For the month of. Of May, I'm gonna go every day, just. Just for the first week in May. So we're gonna have. We're gonna call it the, you know, whatever week. And I'm going to have a podcast episode come out every day for one week, even though I usually come out weekly. And that's going to be my power 10 in this moment where I. Yes, I'm going to spend a little bit more time these weeks prior to record these episodes, to schedule these interviews. It's going to be a lot of additional work, but it's going to pay off because we're going to fly during that time. And because in the world of podcasting, more velocity gets you more ranking, which gets you more views, which gets you more ranking, which gets, like. Things can start to spiral during that time in such a good way that. That you'll see this, like, incredible huge burst, right? It's like a hackathon, right? Hack, like, imagine like developers, right? If you just kind of went to work nine to five every day and did your thing, cool, you kind of make progress on your work. But if you're like, hey, everybody, all the developers in the company, we're going to do a hackathon. So for 24 hours, starting now, go develop something new. And like, here's some chick fil. A freedom for you to stay up in some pizza. It's like so many amazing things happen in that 24 hours when people are focused because they know it's not going to be a forever thing. So you're able to put more energy, you're able to build the resources or bring them all out for that moment. And that's such a special thing that we often forget how powerful it is because we're in sort of this rhythm of life and this cadence. We're in automatic mode, which it's hard because as creators, we're supposed to be, like, consistent and automatic, but at the same time, kind of un. Automating yourself every once in a while and going in hard can. Can be the right thing to do.
- [40:38]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, absolutely. And just knowing that the. So behavioral economics, behavioral science is all about understanding our habits and how that Goes into play and a lot of things, you, you need those habits so you can focus on one change at a time. Like you're saying, instead of trying to say, I'm going to be the best presenter until I can give the best possible talk, I'm not going to get up on a stage. That's bad. You also don't want to try to work on all the things before you go do the next one because. Yikes. That's also just so mentally taxing and everything too. But I think it's just, it's. It was amazing in reading through the book, how kindred I would say we are in our style. So for my books, you talked about writing your book and kind of this Power 10 approach. And I actually have where I rent it at house. Like, go. Go for it. Go be in a house for like 10 days or two weeks at a time that it's like just me. My husband is the greatest too. He'll. He'll stay home with the kids while I go do this. But it's like existing with the book and like, I know I have to get this done while I'm out here. And I can't be procrastinating on other things because they sacrifice so much for me to be able to be away for these 10 days or whatever. And so I have to get the draft done and to the publisher and then I can just exist with it. And if I feel like I want to write until 11 o' clock at night, cool. If I need to take a nap, awesome. If I want to go for a walk.
- [42:04]
Okay.
- [42:04]
Because it's just me and my own time and living with that book and so sounds like you had kind of a similar process but not actually stepping away.
- [42:14]
Pat Flynn
No. I mean, you have to know what works for you. Right? And it's like diets. Every diet works differently for different people and it takes trial and error. And I love. And you're not the first person I've heard to kind of like lock themselves in a cabin to, to write and come up with amazing stuff. Whereas me, it's like my, my productive area is right here in this office. So my door was locked most of the day. And again, same thing. Communicating with my wife and letting her know, hey, for the next two weeks, I'm pretty much going to be mia. I mean, I'll be here in the house and, you know, we'll have dinner together, but I'm going to be hunkered down and. And you know, hopefully we'll have something to look forward to. On the other side of that. And you know, it's, it's again like so many amazing things happen when you have that level of focus where nothing else matters and you have that pressure, like you said too, like, you know, you're not going to be there forever, so you make it work. And I think that that's again something that we, we forget about when we live in sort of the day to day different people will have different amounts of time and access and we kind of have to again find what works for you. Like another. This is a version of a Power 10. It's NaNoWriMo National Novel Writers Month every November writer is usually fiction writers, although nonfiction as well will use just the month of November to write an entire book from scratch. And this is like a cultish kind of club thing that has now kind of come about. And in 2018, I used the month of November to write my previous book, Superfans. I just wrote it in that entire month.
- [43:48]
Melina Palmer
Great.
- [43:48]
Pat Flynn
I was like, you know, especially when it's like other people are doing it with you kind of, you know, and you don't want to be the last. You know, there's a lot of again, psychological factors that come into play with this. What did you, I'm curious, when did, did you Write for like 9 hours, 10 hours a day or, or like what was your work ethic like during that time?
- [44:11]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, it's funny, it, it does end up having some of that, but it's the first couple of days is just sort of adjusting mentally and like decompressing from all of what I had been doing and so starting to kind of think about an outline or something. And it's, you know, now being three books in and you think it's going to be like the same from one to the next. And it's, it's not, it's not like I have a process and the ne.
- [44:35]
Then all the books will be the.
- [44:36]
Same and they're all completely different. But I, I've taken to picking up like whatever feels like an easy thing to go in and work on. Right now I'm going to jump in and just do that thing and write it, even if it's in chapter two 12 or you know, whatever else. So yeah, for the most part though it is kind of in that like eight, nine, ten hour days. But it's broken up in such a way that it's like I'm going to go for a run or I'm. And I have rented. It's like a house out in this amazing beach Town here in Washington. So it's like get to go see beautiful views. I mean, you have this just at your home in San Diego, but it's different here in Washington.
- [45:17]
Pat Flynn
But you're like out there, like getting inspiration, getting some fresh air, then coming back in with more energy. Like, do you find that you. You're in like major flow state when you're putting yourself in that position?
- [45:27]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, and thankfully I have because the, the books are taking information from my podcast episodes. And so it's like I'm gonna do a chapter on framing. I have a one hour episode and a full script from that that I'm gonna dig in as a starting point, you know, as I kind of go and get to, to research and things like that. So what I've always said about it is it's, there's like around day three or four, like being just like by myself. Maybe I'm going a little bit crazy out there, but it's like the book becomes this like, tangible thing that it's more like I can experience and see. Like, okay, this shouldn't be over here. I want to move it to this place. Like, I can just exist within it in a way that you don't when it's kind of choppy and being like mom and wife and like all this stuff at home.
- [46:14]
Pat Flynn
Yeah. Love it.
- [46:16]
Melina Palmer
Yeah.
- [46:16]
Pat Flynn
So you practice Lean learning? I love it. It's great.
- [46:19]
Melina Palmer
Oh, for sure. Like, when. So I had said, like, I want to have you on the podcast no matter what. You then had mentioned, oh, I have this book coming out. I'm like, cool, Amazing. That means you're open to talking to me. Like, whatever the book is, I know it'll be amazing. And then when I saw your presentation and looked and saw it's lean learning and what it's about, I said like, this is obviously such a great fit with everything that we talk about. So serendipity is the name of the game. As we go to wrap up the conversation. What is one, like, last thing that you think is like, so important if you could share with people for them to keep in mind or think about do next?
- [47:00]
Pat Flynn
One big thing I had to unlearn was that I had to be perfect at everything. I mean, I grew up in a household where I would come home with like a 95% of my math test and immediately I'd be asked, what happened to the other 5%? And then I'd sit down and basically get tutored by my parents for the next five hours and probably cry most of the time because of it. So I never really thought that anything else mattered other than 100% perfection all the time. And it wasn't until I got laid off and started building my business that I realized, like, the only way I was making progress was that when I was actually making mistakes. And so I've now learned to embrace the mistakes and actually try to fail faster, get to that failure point faster. Because true failure is giving up. But those mistakes that you make are the guide posts for you on the way to whatever it is. Right? I mean, imagine a golfer and I talk about golf quite a bit in the book because I had a couple people who were completely different when. When it came to their learning. A buddy of mine, Terry, he was subscribed to every golf magazine. He watched all golf programs. And he even had, like, a putter in his office. You know, one of those ones that, like, return the ball to you. He was terrible. He was absolutely terrible. No offense, Terry, but he just overlearned. He. He was learning from a hundred different sources a week, and as a result, just nothing was working. And George, who was my project manager, he just learned from, again, a coach or a mentor and just made small adjustments every time in his putting. He would micromaster on that, and he would micromaster on his driver. All this kind of stuff to help him literally become a scratch golfer. And he was. He wasn't anybody who golfed when he was in college or anything like that. So it was pretty amazing to. To see. And of course, I've adopted that style as well, but. But he did teach me that the way to learn is just to do, to. To get the right information. But then do. And I mean, there's a point at which information can slow you down. So, like, let's just. Let's just move forward and embrace those mistakes along the way. Cause those will be your guideposts to success.
- [49:03]
Melina Palmer
Awesome.
- [49:04]
Well, thank you for that wonderful advice. Uh, I don't typically do these, like, fast questions, but I feel like I have to ask at least one which is. Which is the best Back to the Future movie Number one.
- [49:16]
Pat Flynn
Number one, I knew you were going to ask that. I knew you were going to ask that because I know you're a fan, too. They're all great for different reasons. Like, I love it so much. It's some of the best storytelling ever. But number one, just the classic is great. Number two, did a good job, and they're all great. That's almost an unfair question to ask.
- [49:37]
Melina Palmer
But I know I told you before we started recording that I have Always said. And people will be surprised because I actually haven't really talked about Back to the Future much. I talk about Harry Potter because I love Harry Potter. But, like, when I was sick, like, and you have, like, your Go to movie, and I would watch the Back to the Future trilogy, and it's like, you have to watch all three movies, right? That you're gonna sit down and watch them all. And so when people would ask my favorite movie, I always say the Back.
- [50:02]
To the Future trilogy, because I feel.
- [50:03]
Like it's just one story. But if I had to pick, actually, I think the third. The third one is my favorite. And I know that's an unpopular opinion. Most people kind of tune out by that point, I think.
- [50:15]
But I love it. The history or something.
- [50:17]
Pat Flynn
I like that one, too, because it just. And the train seamlessly wraps all the stories together.
- [50:23]
Melina Palmer
Right.
- [50:23]
Pat Flynn
Like, it's so smart. And please do not make a fourth. Like, I think Zemeckis, as long as he's alive, said that there will never be a fourth. And I hope they don't ruin it. Like, they've ruined a lot of these other things. Like Toy Story. Toy Story was perfect at three. Why do we have a four? I don't know. As much as I love. Was it forky?
- [50:43]
Melina Palmer
Oh, yeah.
- [50:44]
Forky's pretty fun.
- [50:45]
Pat Flynn
Yeah, Forky's cool. But, like, the story at the end of three is perfect. Yeah.
- [50:50]
Melina Palmer
So many have such good story arcs.
- [50:51]
They're perfect.
- [50:52]
And. I know, but what's the. What's your favorite or what's the best Pokemon?
- [50:57]
Pat Flynn
Well, I have a couple of my favorites. Houndoom is. Is one of them. It's like a dog with, like, fire and stuff. And then Miltank is the other one. And Miltank is. Is. Is. I guess we'll finish here. Become the mascot of my channel. And it's just a cow.
- [51:14]
Melina Palmer
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Pat Flynn
It doesn't do anything. It makes milk.
- [51:16]
Melina Palmer
It's.
- [51:18]
Pat Flynn
It has. It does not breathe fire. It does not spray water out of cannons or have any of these psychic abilities. It's literally a cow. And it was kind of a joke at first. People were like, what's your favorite Pokemon, Pat? Like, something like Miltank, because Miltank's not special. So they were trying to make fun of me, and it was. It became this, like, running joke. But then I kind of thought about it more, and I was like, you know what? When I was growing up, I almost kind of feel like I was a Miltank. I didn't have anything special that I thought about me, I didn't have any superpowers. It felt like. And you know, it wasn't until I like joined the marching band with other people who also felt the same way that I felt like I found a home. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to make my channel's mascot, Milton. Because this is where if you feel like you're a miltank in life, like not special, this is where you are special. This is where we see you and you belong. And so that's, it's become sort of a, a symbol for us. And you know, milk makes you stronger.
- [52:09]
Melina Palmer
Calcium, you know, strong bones.
- [52:12]
It's, I think that's the, the power too in the like Magikarp to Gyarados world. Right? Like that's like Magikarp sucks and is absolutely the worst. But when you get you, you will be Gyarados. Your moment just hasn't even come yet. You don't even know Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for joining me. For everyone who's now so excited to get their copy of Lean Learning to learn more from you and about smart passive income and follow you and all the things you know, what's their best path to do.
- [52:42]
Pat Flynn
So thank you. Lean learningbook.com in fact, if you pre order before June 3, which is when the book comes out, there's some pre order bonuses and stuff like access to me and some other fun goodies and stuff if you wanted to go there. So again, lean learningbook.com and thank you again, Molina for having this come out. First of all, honored to be episode 500. Congrats to you. That is amazing. And then also for it to be just timed perfectly for the pre release of my book, like this was meant to be. So I'm so glad that we were able to connect and you know, I'll ask you after the call for your address. I want to send your, your family some cards. Thank you.
- [53:20]
Melina Palmer
Well, thank you so much. As I already said, you are such a kind, wonderful, generous person. For everyone who's listening, since this is coming just before the book comes out, go to leanlearningbook.com to get your copy and all the bonus stuff, whatever's there, support Pat.
- [53:37]
He's amazing.
- [53:38]
Thanks so much for joining me on the show.
- [53:39]
Pat Flynn
Thank you.
- [53:41]
Melina Palmer
Thank you again to Pat Flynn for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, this milestone moment brought such a powerful reminder. You don't have to know everything to get started. In fact, it's often better if you don't. Pat's idea of just in time learning instead of just in case learning, trusting that you know enough to begin and being able to learn more as you go is something I hope you take to heart. Whether you're launching a podcast, writing a book, or trying something totally new, taking action is the most brain friendly way to move forward. I also loved what Pat shared about the joy of opting out In a world filled with inspiration overload. Choosing where not to focus is just as important as choosing where you do. Maybe even more important that discipline. Giving yourself permission to focus fully on one thing at a time is how real momentum happens, and something you've definitely heard me talk about in my TEDx talk. There's nothing magical about Monday. So what's one thing you've been waiting to start because you didn't feel ready yet? I'd love to hear about it. Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. And of course, since we're celebrating episode 500, it would mean so much to me if you'd mark the moment by sharing this episode with a friend, subscribing to the podcast, leaving a review, or all of the above. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links to my top related past episodes and books including Lean Learning, Ways to Get in Touch With Myself and Follow Pat and more. And if you're listening to this the week it comes out, be extra extra sure to go order your copy before June 3rd so you can get those awesome bonuses that Pat mentioned. Links to make it easy are waiting for you. All that in the app you're listening to and@the rainybusiness.com 500. And thank you again to Pat Flynn for joining me on the show today. It was delightful to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [55:50]
It's going to be a lot of fun.
- [55:51]
You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
- [56:04]
Pat Flynn
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.