503. Innovating Through Adversity - Lessons from the Great Depression

Summary

Episode Summary: 503. Innovating Through Adversity - Lessons from the Great Depression

Introduction

In Episode 503 of The Brainy Business podcast, host Melina Palmer delves into the fascinating intersection of history and behavioral economics with guest Jason Vojovic, author of Bullfrogs Bingo and the Little House on the Prairie. This episode explores how the Great Depression served as a crucible for innovation, challenging common perceptions of consumer behavior during economic hardship.

Guest Introduction: Jason Vojovic

Melina Palmer welcomes Jason Vojovic, highlighting his extensive career spanning over 25 years in product development and innovation. Jason's unique background, rooted in a family of artists, immigrants, and entrepreneurs, has equipped him with the ability to observe patterns and derive insights that fuel innovation.

Jason's Background and Expertise

Jason shares his journey as a fractional Chief Marketing Officer, working part-time with various clients to drive innovation. He emphasizes the value of historical knowledge in contemporary business, stating:

"If I can take lessons from history, we'll take it. You know, so that's really my value proposition to as a fractional CMO that helps other clients innovate."
[05:29]

Research Process: Uncovering Untold Stories

Melina inquires about Jason's research methodology, to which he responds by describing the treasure hunt-like process of primary source research. Jason explains:

"There's no prompt for this. It can get you started. There's a lot online now with digitized old books, archive.org being a valuable resource."
[07:00]

He also mentions the importance of collaborating with historians to mitigate his own blind spots, ensuring a comprehensive understanding of historical innovations.

Overview of Jason's Books

Jason discusses his literary works, starting with Booze Babe and the Little Black Dress, which examines the consumer culture of the Roaring Twenties. He transitions to his latest book:

Bullfrogs Bingo and the Little House on the Prairie: How Innovators of the Great Depression Made the Best of the Worst of Times
[14:03]

This book challenges the notion that economic downturns stifle innovation, presenting the Great Depression as a period of significant creative breakthroughs.

Key Innovations Discussed

1. Masking Tape and Scotch Tape

   Jason narrates the story of Drew Gurley from 3M, who invented masking tape in the late 1920s to aid in painting, which later evolved into the ubiquitous Scotch tape. He highlights how necessity drove the creation of temporary adhesives, which became essential for both industrial and household use.

   "Scotch tape was a really interesting invention, but it was more than that. It was the innovation—people finding uses for it."
   [17:30]

2. Flour Sack Dresses

   During the Great Depression, rural women repurposed cotton flour sacks to create durable clothing. Recognizing this trend, manufacturers introduced patterned sacks to facilitate dressmaking, leading to a vibrant marketplace of colorful fabric used for fashion.

   "Flour sack dresses are an excellent example of iterative innovation between a user and the inventor."
   [21:54]

3. Pet Care Innovations

   The era saw the rise of dedicated pet food and veterinary services. Jason explains how economic stress paradoxically led to the domestication and valorization of pets, fostering a new market for pet-related products and services.

   "Pets became part of the family during the Great Depression. This cultural shift led to innovations like dedicated pet food and veterinary care."
   [33:38]

4. Color Film Cameras

   Despite economic hardships, consumers invested in color film cameras to capture and preserve memories. This investment was driven by a psychological need for joy and documentation, illustrating that even in tough times, discretionary spending persists when aligned with emotional needs.

   "People bought color film for their cameras because they wanted to capture memories, even during the most depressing times."
   [32:03]

Behavioral Economics and Consumer Behavior

The discussion underscores that consumer behavior during the Great Depression was not solely dictated by financial constraints but also by psychological factors. Jason emphasizes:

"It's not about the price or the rational reasoning behind buying. It's all about the psychological stuff that happens before you get to the price and that comes in truly understanding your consumer."
[46:49]

Lessons for Modern Innovators

Jason offers valuable advice for today's innovators facing economic uncertainties:

1. Understand the Ecosystem: Innovators must grasp the entire ecosystem surrounding their product, ensuring that all necessary coordinating innovations are in place.

   "Understand the entire ecosystem around that innovation. What does it mean, for instance, to have pets in your home that are part of your family?"
   [37:35]

2. Cultivate Curiosity: Curiosity is paramount. Jason advises innovators to engage directly with their target audience beyond online forums to uncover deeper insights.

   "The number one trait that you can cultivate is just be interested. If you're not curious about your domain, you might as well stop."
   [43:40]

3. Embrace Iterative Innovation: Learning from historical examples like flour sack dresses and Scotch tape, innovators should adopt a flexible approach, allowing products to evolve based on user interaction and needs.

   "Innovators can learn to make things usable in new ways, fostering creativity and community engagement."
   [27:50]

Closing Remarks

Melina Palmer concludes the episode by reflecting on the profound insights gained from Jason's exploration of historical innovation. She underscores the relevance of understanding consumer psychology and adapting to shifting economic landscapes to drive business success.

"Smart companies and marketers understood [consumer needs] and were able to appeal to the masses and succeed at a time where others might fail."
[46:46]

Jason encourages listeners to connect with him through various platforms to continue the conversation on innovation and behavioral economics.

Key Takeaways

• Necessity Drives Innovation: Economic adversity, such as the Great Depression, can be a powerful catalyst for creative breakthroughs across industries.

• Behavioral Insights Are Crucial: Understanding the psychological motivations behind consumer behavior is essential for successful product development and marketing.

• Historical Lessons Inform Modern Strategies: By studying past innovations, businesses can glean strategies to navigate current and future economic challenges effectively.

• Community and Iterative Processes Enhance Innovation: Engaging with users and fostering a community can lead to iterative improvements and sustained product relevance.

Connect with Jason Vojovic

For more insights into the history of innovation and behavioral economics, you can find Jason Vojovic on Substack, Amazon, and LinkedIn. The show notes also provide direct links to his works and additional resources.

Final Thoughts

As businesses navigate the complexities of modern economies, the lessons from the Great Depression offer timeless strategies for innovation and consumer engagement. By embracing curiosity, understanding the broader ecosystem, and leveraging historical insights, companies can not only survive but thrive in challenging times.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Hey there Melina here. If you've been thinking about raising your prices, maybe waiting for the right time or the perfect plan, consider this your sign. Clients expect prices to rise right now. The key is making them feel good about saying yes. And that's exactly what we do in our four week pricing sprint. Aligning your strategy story and price with behavioral science. I I work directly with just 12 clients a year on this and there are only three spots left. In 2025, you'll walk away with more than just new prices. You will have a behavioral pricing framework you can confidently use again and again and again. Is now your time to raise your prices and sell more confidently? Email me at molina the brainy business.com and let's talk. And of course, when you're ready, let's start the show.

Welcome to episode 503 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to reintroduce you to Jason Vojovic, author of Bullfrogs Bingo and the Little House on the Prairie. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy, help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

[Jason Vojovic]

Hello everyone.

[Melina Palmer]

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Jason Vojovic]

Okay, I'm guessing a book name like Bullfrogs Bingo and the Little House on.

[Melina Palmer]

The Prairie might have you a little curious, right?

[Jason Vojovic]

And some of you might be thinking.

[Melina Palmer]

That sounds a lot like another book you featured recently.

[Jason Vojovic]

And that's because Jason Vojovic, author of.

[Melina Palmer]

Booze Babe in the Little Black Dress.

[Jason Vojovic]

Is back to discuss his newest book.

[Melina Palmer]

With a similar naming convention, but a brand new era of innovation to share with us. The last book was about the Roaring twenties and this one is taking us into the Great Depression, an era that most of us think is a time where no one was buying anything and likely don't think much about inventions of the era. But as necessity is indeed the mother of invention, being in a time of extreme scarcity meant there was a lot of opportunity for people to get scrappy and innovate, both as consumers and the companies providing goods and services during this difficult time. I don't want to spoil it and share too much here, but trust me, this book and today's conversation are jam.

[Jason Vojovic]

Packed with amazing stories.

[Melina Palmer]

Before we get into it, let me tell you a little bit about Jason with a career that spans more than 25 years. He has launched hundreds of new products, everything from medical devices to virtual healthcare systems to non dairy consumer cheese to next generation alternatives to the dreaded cone of shame for pets to reproductive aids for cows. He is a graduate of the University.

[Jason Vojovic]

Of Wisconsin and the University of Minnesota.

[Melina Palmer]

And has completed postgraduate studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management.

[Jason Vojovic]

While he says that his formal training.

[Melina Palmer]

Has been invaluable, he he credits his success to growing up in a family of artists, immigrants and entrepreneurs. They taught him how to carefully observe the world, see patterns before others notice them, and use those insights to create new innovations. History is Jason's favorite way to observe the world, and he believes the people from the past have plenty to teach us about the challenges and opportunities we face today. And you'll definitely learn more about that as we dig into the Great Depression today. We're really quickly before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in.

[Jason Vojovic]

The show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get.

[Melina Palmer]

In touch with Jason and myself, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 503. Now let's jump right in. Jason Vojovic, welcome back to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Jason Vojovic]

Welcome and thank you for having me. It is ex. I'm really excited to be here.

[Melina Palmer]

Yay. I am excited too.

[Jason Vojovic]

I have loved now both of your books that I have had a joy to be able to read and I'm so excited to be able to share.

[Melina Palmer]

These amazing stories and insights with the audience. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

[Jason Vojovic]

Yeah, you got it. I am a practicing chief marketing officer, a fractional chief marketing officer. That just means I work part time for a number of different clients. I have been in the new product development and innovation business for the past 25 years or more. I help my dad and my family.

I come from a long line of.

You know, entrepreneurs and immigrants and inventors and those sort of people who made something of themselves. So there was a lot of pressure on me as a kid to choose.

This as a career.

So not no big surprise that I.

Am where I am now.

So. But yeah, that's I originally got into writing history because I simply was interested in it and I, you know, for, you know, for my clients, for my business, the more insight and the more.

Knowledge I could bring to the table, the better off they were innovating, inventing, is hard.

It is really, really, really hard work. The failure rate is very high. Any advantage we can have, and if I can take lessons from, from history, we'll take it. Uh, you know, so that's, that's really my value proposition to as a fractional CMO that helps other clients innovate is I don't just have my experience. I don't just have, you know, kind of recent case studies or whatever you read, might read on Harvard Business Review. I've got hundreds of years of other.

People who have done really similar things.

So that's what I try to bring to the table.

I love it. And I think that's a good sort of a segue into wanting to ask about. And I know you and I have.

[Melina Palmer]

Talked about this a little bit and.

[Jason Vojovic]

I, I can't remember if we talked about it on air when you were here before, but it is worth all the time. So as far as how you, you know.

[Melina Palmer]

So how do you go about finding these stories these days?

[Jason Vojovic]

Right. So is it all online research? Are you going into old libraries and finding stuff?

[Melina Palmer]

Are you calling companies and getting access to their archives?

[Jason Vojovic]

Like, how do you go about finding some of these untold stories these days? It's a, I feel like it's a lost art. Like very few people know where to.

[Melina Palmer]

Go search to find this sort of cool stuff.

[Jason Vojovic]

Yeah, there's no, there's no prompt for this. Right. You know, it can get you started. There's a, you know, when you really think about the process of primary source.

Research, which is really what this is.

It'S a little bit like a treasure hunt.

Yes.

You can find online.

There are lots of great resources online.

And I don't want to, you know, I don't want to create the impression that I'm traipsing through old libraries all.

The time and kind of digging, you.

Know, dumpster diving and 3M or General Mills, you know, it's nothing like that. There are plenty of places. And what's. What's nice online now is a lot.

Of the really old books have become.

Digitized and you can go to archive and you can, you know, check out. Basically it's kind of an online digitized library. So there's a lot of great stuff there. I do have an entire bookshelf in front of me of very smelly old books. I have a first edition copy with. Yeah.

Of Bullfrog Farming for Pleasure and profit.

Which is Dr. Albert Bruhl's book on exactly what it says it is. And it has his own notes and in it, his own, you know, his own scribbles, his own stuff and, you.

Know, from basically the 1930s.

So there's getting those books from the archives.

They're sitting in research libraries.

And a lot of the archivists are.

Great about sending you those sort of.

Materials, but you do have to know what you're looking for. And that's the thing. You know, I am an innovator.

I'm not a historian.

So I've had to, you know, it's kind of how I explain it to people is let's say you were going to write a history of farming, but you've never grown anything before. Yes, you can, you can do that history, but you bring something different to the table when you've actually been a farmer who will train on the history versus a historian that's going to get trained on farming. I think there's something that I know to look for in the primary sources that historians really don't. And when I read histories of innovation from other historians, I'm often frustrated by.

Why did you not ask that question? Why did you not look into this?

This is like you are glossing over something that is really, really hard and just kind of skipping over big parts of that development process. So I can look at those primary sources in a different way than a historian can. That means, obviously, I need to teach myself all of the tough tradecraft that.

Historians need to look at.

What is that source? Where did that source come from? How valid is it?

What was out?

What else was going on at the time? There are a lot of blind spots that I have.

So I have a number of historians.

That I have as readers of mine that help catch some of those things for me. But yeah, it's a, it's a wonderful process. It's when you look at the history of innovation so often you read a case study in Harvard or wherever, they're so sanitized, even book case studies that are a little bit longer are just, they're so linear. They're like, hey, this happened, then this, then this. What you really realize when you go in and you look at these primary sources, you look at the notes from.

The inventors themselves, you realize that they.

Had no clue what was going on and they had to figure all that.

Out as they went.

And for people who are innovating and inventing, it's actually really empowering to see that, you know, people who you look up to really struggled with the same things that you're struggling with. And it's, it makes you feel like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it. They kind of had the grit. They had the. A little bit of luck.

They made it through. You can, too.

It's. That's what's so great to me. That's why I love doing that type of work.

Oh, definitely. And I think, you know, as you're saying there. There's that hindsight bias when we're doing the case studies these days, Right. And you say, well, like, it's so obvious that this would turn into this and look at how, you know, ingenious it was. And so I think that's really cool.

[Melina Palmer]

To be able to see the notes.

[Jason Vojovic]

And realize that, you know, like you said, there's. There's luck and serendipity and thoughtfulness and a lot of trial and error. And so much that that goes into that. And just that curiosity that is important in innovation, I think is really shows up in the way that you're doing that research, right? Where it's saying, like, but what about this and what about that? And just wanting to find a little bit more and dig deeper, I think is really great. And we can all be very appreciative that you do that work so we can do less of it if we don't have the time and can learn from your. Your insights. So really quickly, we'll do a. You know, what was the first book we talked about and what's this new one? What's the difference? Why, you know, write two and, you know, like, I can talk, right? I've got the three, but, you know, what's the tell A little bit about what we got going on and what's different about them?

Yeah, the. The first book in this trilogy that will be a trilogy of books. Yes, yes. Was Boo's Babe and the Little Black Dress, and it was all about the Roaring Twenties. So this was about the creation of consumer culture when we got all kinds of new things as Americans. We got radios, we got cars, we got all fast food, we got all kinds of things in the 1920s. It was a tremendously disruptive time. Now it was, you know, for those of us who lived through.

Through the creation of the Internet and.

How much that changed our lives, that.

Was not even close.

You know, if I were to take you back a hundred years, you would recognize the world as it was in 1925. If I took you back 10 years past that to 1915, you would be utterly lost. You know, so we had grocery stores, we had department stores, we had Big Box store. We had all those things. So the, the stories in the book are all about how we as Americans coped with all of that.

And we became consumers.

We became, it wasn't really consumer culture because it's all that implies that it was always this kind of monetary transaction. It was about choice culture. So we learned how to do, you know, how to make choices en masse. Doesn't mean we were always perfect at it, but we learned how to. This next book is really a continuation of that. What would happen after October 29, 1929 when the stock market crashed and everything hit the fan? So for the next decade, where we had the Great Depression, would that just go away?

Would all of those skills just say.

Oh well, gosh, no, that's all gone now. What's going to happen when we don't.

Have all this money, we don't have.

All this roaring and everything? Like people are starving, you know, people are migrating. What would happen then to innovation? Would it kill innovation or would it accelerate innovation?

And the whole point behind the new book.

And again, titles, I do kind of love the titles. I a shout out to John Arms, who originally helped me with the first title. The new title is Bullfrogs Bingo and.

The Little House on the Prairie.

How Innovators of the Great Depression Made.

The Best of the Worst of Times.

This book is all about how necessity is the mother of invention and that it actually the Great Depression, rather than being a hindrance on innovation, was an incredible accelerator of innovation in lots of.

Different areas of our lives.

What we kind of live with today, many of the things we live with.

Today are Depression era inventions that most people kind of take for granted and don't remember came from that era.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's always so fascinating reading your books and all the stories and I love that you, even though there's crossover, of course things are happening at the same time. I think most people would look at sort of a chronological place, right? So it's like chapter one is this.

[Melina Palmer]

Year and then chapter two is this.

[Jason Vojovic]

Year and then this. And so by having the story of so Scotch Tape and the story of Penny Restaurants and Monopoly, slash the Landlord's Game and all these, they each, you know, have their own chapter and you get to learn about them just as a story and see how that all is. And it can build on itself, but they don't have to be like a little of this and a little that.

[Melina Palmer]

I think it just makes for a really great read and that you can.

[Jason Vojovic]

Just pick up a chapter and read about it, which is very nice and.

[Melina Palmer]

Not have to have read everything before to have any context in it.

[Jason Vojovic]

If you were going to. I mean, you know, Scotch Tape was the first in the.

[Melina Palmer]

Of the chapters in the book.

[Jason Vojovic]

Is that the right place to start if you were going to pick like a top one that you like to talk about? But it's not in the title, so I don't know.

No, it's not in the title. But I thought it was first because it was. It was a nice bridge between the.

1920S and the 1930s.

And Drew Gurley was the inventor. He was from Minnesota. He was a banjo player, of all things, really. He dropped out of college. He talked himself into a job at 3M.

3M immediately hired him to deliver sandpaper.

So just kind of crazy guy. There are lots of stories of musicians as inventors.

So if you're a creative person, you're.

A musician, you're a singer, you're something like that, and you think, well, I can't.

I can't be an inventor.

I can't be an innovator.

Well, you would be wrong.

There are lots of, lots of people in there.

Richard Gurley.

Drew was a great bridge between the 1920s and the 1930s, 1920s. One of the big things that people were doing, like, people thought, okay, this is Henry Ford. You can have any color as long as. As long as it's black, right? Well, if you were trying to compete with the Model T, paint was one of the big ways to do that.

Imagine painting something without masking tape.

I mean, just.

Just shockingly difficult.

Drew and the folks at 3M figured out how to add basically temporary adhesive.

The same thing that Post it notes.

Are famous for today.

He was the person who invented that.

The late 1920s, that basically created masking tape.

Awesome.

That was really cool.

As we get into the Great Depression.

People were starting to figure out how.

To package food and how to save food.

And okay, we have cellophane. Well, there's no way to seal cellophane. You're not going to seal it with masking tape.

It was.

That's not a really good way to seal it.

You want a clear tape.

Well, Drew figured out how to basically add. Do the same thing with cellophane tape. And that's where we get magic tape. You know, the little scotch tape you get at the store. That came from the Great Depression when people wanted to save food. You know, if you, you know, it's 1932, 1933, and you are trying to make the most out of every dollar, and you could, you know, put Tape on. You know, you could repair things, you.

Could repair money, you could repair books.

You could even use Scotch tape to repair cracked eggs in your refrigerator. Farmers use Scotch tape to repair, you know, eggs that were fertilized and they would hatch that way. So all of those sort of things. And it was. It's really a great story about the culture that had changed that. Yes, Scotch tape was. Scotch tape was a. Was a really interesting invention, but it was more than that. It wasn't just the invention.

It was the innovation.

And the difference is that an invention is an idea. An innovation is people finding a use for it. And Americans during the Great Depression, their.

Psychology changed from kind of a culture.

Of abundance in the 1920s to a culture of scarcity, where you wanted to.

Make sure that you saved every penny you could.

Well, if you could save meat in the fridge, you could, you know, tape.

An egg before you used it so.

That it wouldn't go bad.

You did it.

So it's a. It's a great way to understand how such a little simple thing made such a major difference and helps us tell that story. It's a great way to kind of introduce this culture that had changed from the 1920s to the 1930s. That's why I started.

It's a great bridge.

It's fun.

Drew is a fantastic character. His archives at 3M.

By the way, we talked a little bit about archives, archives at 3M. Thank you to everyone at 3M. What a fantastic organization.

Great records.

I am in their debt.

Love that. And as you said, I really love this story and the way that people were. Just how much it showcased that mindset, right, of how you can. One thing, multiple uses. And there's this mix of what I love throughout the book and the lessons learned there, I think, is the mix of the companies that understood what their.

[Melina Palmer]

Customer base was going through and that.

[Jason Vojovic]

They were able to innovate in a way that would help people to be more like, have some more ingenuity and like, figure something out. And based on then how you see people are starting to use the thing.

[Melina Palmer]

In a way that they never would.

[Jason Vojovic]

Have before, you can then innovate more to help you to stand out and make it so that the thing kind.

[Melina Palmer]

Of sells itself in that way.

[Jason Vojovic]

And the story that comes to mind for me here now, knowing we're going to be jumping all over the book for you, but, you know, for the audience, they won't necessarily know. But the flour sack dresses, I think it's one of my favorite aspects and one of the reasons for it is because the, you know, today flour comes in a paper container and, you know, everybody talks about how it's like such a mess.

[Melina Palmer]

Right?

[Jason Vojovic]

But like, whatever. But when you think about. So knowing that it wasn't that way before and seeing how people were starting.

[Melina Palmer]

To use it, how the companies responded.

[Jason Vojovic]

With patterns and things to help, is amazing. And I love this just like sort of cyclical piece. And you know how again we see those items showing up today and it was this kind of, you know, reuse, recycle. Before it was cool, but because it was necessary. But so can you share a little bit about flour sack dresses?

Yeah, I think you hit it right on the head that flour sack dresses are an excellent example of kind of iterative innovation between a user and the inventor and the innovator. And what was interesting is before paper bags and those of you who lived on a farm totally understand this, you know, take a knee on this one. But for us city folk, you need to understand that flour and feed and not was it just flour, it was.

Manure, it was sugar, it was.

All other things came packaged in flour and in cotton sacks. So, you know, These were either 20, 50, 100 pound sacks. Usually £50 were about right. The only reason they didn't make them bigger is because people couldn't lift them. So when you'd got, you know, a 50 pound flour sack, what, you know, during the Great Depression, what the bag manufacturers started to notice was that, you know, rural women in Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, those that sort of area, that's where all of this innovation happened, were reusing the bags. They were making clothes out of them.

The cotton was really nice. The cotton was better quality than most.

Clothes were made of at that time. It was thick, it was sturdy. You know, it was. Not only did you have the clout.

The cotton, you had the string that tied the bags.

I mean, the whole thing. So women were making these and, you know, making clothes. What the bag manufacturers looked at is.

Huh, well, that's interesting.

We might be able to encourage that. So they started to talk about, you know, having patterns on the bag so that women would know, like, okay, well, how to cut out a dress, how to cut out a shirt, you know, things like that. And kept looking at, okay, one of the companies that was the most popular made gingham girl. So basically the gingham check pattern. And as they did it as kind of a trademark thing years ago. But what they found was that the women were using that because that was kind of nicer than just the white cotton.

So they would use the gingham pattern.

So the bag manufacturers started making other.

Patterns, other colors, other.

All kinds of things. So what used to be, when you go into the feed store in rural Minnesota somewhere, and it was just white sacks and tan sacks everywhere, it became this, like, cornucopia of color, this like.

Huge rainbow of colors in there of all the different sacks.

And, you know, women would start to trade, like, hey, you know, I, I.

Need more of this type of sack with this pattern.

You have that type of pattern. So the feed, the, the feedlot folks would establish swap meets to try to figure that out. One of the biggest additional innovations, though, that which is really different than how people think about upcycling today. Now, people think about, like, Patagonia or Eileen Fisher, you know, doing like, hey.

Patches and kind of repairs. These folks actually innovated and took it to the next level.

If you've ever used a washable ink or a permanent ink, they came from this era. And they, they both of them were invented at the same time.

Here's why.

Let's say you had the bag, you wanted the permanent pattern, like the gingham pattern. You wanted that because you're going to.

Make a shirt out of that. But the bag also needed to have.

On it, hey, this is 40 pounds of whatever company's flour, whatever, but you.

Wanted that to wash off.

So when the women got it, and this is almost all mostly women, they would get those, they would wash the, the, the washable ink out and then.

Produce the clothes with it. So the bag manufacturers had to invent.

Washable inks, you know, to do this. So over and over again. And this is, you think, well, you know, what has happened from then. It's, it's permanent inks, washable inks, you know, materials, sewing. Think about this kind of culture that has grown up. If you're in a rural area, you see this today. I mean, how many, you know, how many dresses do you have that have little flowers on them?

How many men, how many shirts do.

You have that have a gingham pattern?

They all come from this era. A hundred years later, we're still using all of this.

Now. I think kind of the fashion industry, especially fast fashion, could learn a lot from the innovation that happened during that era. It's a lot more than just repairing.

Clothes or reselling old clothes. Like, I got news for you, Patagonia, do better.

Like, you can take a step up. If some bag manufacturer in rural Minnesota can figure this stuff out with no money.

In the Great Depression, when they Were almost broke.

I've got higher expectations of the fashion industry today.

Thank you for that. And I think for any industry, we're able to see how we can look and say, well, it's just the bag, it's just a box, it's just a container that the thing comes in and people are just going to throw it away. But like, what if they didn't?

[Melina Palmer]

Right?

[Jason Vojovic]

And it doesn't have to be. It's great when you have things that you can do to say like shoes that are made from recycled bottles, like, love that, that's amazing. And I like, you know, I wear, I like my Rothy's that they come from that space.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Jason Vojovic]

But like, I can't do that. I can't turn this bottle into anything. And so, you know, then the process of asking someone to send something back to you and then how does that whole process work? And that's still important. But if you think about like, like.

[Melina Palmer]

We were talking about, that kind of.

[Jason Vojovic]

Led into this when you looking to pitch, looking to sell, thinking about product innovation and that it can come in something that makes it so everything becomes.

[Melina Palmer]

Usable in some other way and somebody.

[Jason Vojovic]

Gets to be creative and they can, you know, riff off of your pattern and make their own. And like you said, the sense of community that comes from the swap, being able to have this conversation when you're able to get people together at the same time and so, and being able to kind of show off what you made and you can learn together and just a really cool, cool thing. And where like you were saying in the book, you know, that the, you know, wives would give their husbands, you know, it's like you're going to the store and you better get this pattern because I need this one. It has to look just like this to finish the dress or, you know.

[Melina Palmer]

Whatever that happens to be.

[Jason Vojovic]

And so then you look at where price isn't about the price anymore, right? People want that flower. And you might stock up and get a little extra flower this month so you can get, finish the pattern for the clothes that you need for, you know, a get together that you're having.

[Melina Palmer]

Next week or whatever that happens to be.

[Jason Vojovic]

And I think that's just such an important aspect.

[Melina Palmer]

There are so many stories in the.

[Jason Vojovic]

Book of things where we think about the Great Depression. Like you've already said, you know, grapes of wrath, dust bowl, which, you know, lots of truth in those, right? But like as difficult times, but you feel like nobody has anything and there's no money to spend on anything ever at all. And to know that people bought refrigerators.

[Melina Palmer]

And invested in a refrigerator, they invested in cameras.

[Jason Vojovic]

And you'd say, like, why. Why would you buy a camera when you're struggling, you know, to get food.

[Melina Palmer]

Or whatever that happens to.

[Jason Vojovic]

To be. But those innovations and that people were.

[Melina Palmer]

Willing to spend money on things like.

[Jason Vojovic]

That at that time, and that the.

[Melina Palmer]

Companies knew and understood their customer base.

[Jason Vojovic]

To make that those different innovations for people at that time. Can you share a little bit about kind of the thought process that comes, you know, in that way as you're looking to shape and look around you, of what those opportunities are?

Yeah, I would say that people think about. And since the Great Depression, there's. We have kind of, as a society and certainly as a government, and this won't be kind of a government thing. I promise I will not go down that road. But I will say that we really work hard to try to smooth out.

All of the rough patches.

You know, we don't want, like, oh, if inflation is too high, or, you know, unemployment is too high, everyone goes into collective freakout. And, yes, totally get it. You know, there is a lot of pain there.

I'm not trying to minimize that at all.

I am trying to say, though, that, you know, for instance, unemployment in the Great Depression peaked at about 25%. More people than that were underemployed. But think about that the other way. I always kind of flip a statistic on its head, you know, 75% or more. That was the peak, was 25%. You know, you. The average unemployment during the Great depression.

Was about 10%, which is very high.

90% of people had jobs, they had income.

They were spending money.

Now, psychologically, they were thinking about that differently. But there was money to be spent.

People were making investments in things that mattered to them. And companies that understood innovators, that understood customer needs, realized that it wasn't about the money, it wasn't about the price. It was about how do you satisfy that need.

People will find the money to do it. People found the equivalent of $3,000 in today's money to buy a refrigerator because they looked at it and they said, wow, this thing is going to save me money in the long run because.

I can save food at home.

I don't have to go every day.

I could stock up on meat.

If I found a good deal, I could stock up on that and get that.

Awesome.

But it isn't just kind of the rational side. You know, people bought color film for their cameras because they're like, wow, I want to Take photos of things. I want to travel, I want to.

See all this stuff. I want to capture these memories.

So even in the most depressing possible time, people were buying cameras in huge numbers because they wanted to, they wanted.

To see the world around them. They wanted.

It was kind of a fun thing. I mean, how many people take photos on their smartphones? There is basically, there's an argument to.

Be made that your smartphone is a.

Smart camera with a phone attached. You know, that most people, the camera.

Is the number one app they use and by far takes up the most space, you know, on their phone.

So it's so important, you know, especially as, you know, we go into more challenging economic times, people think, oh, well, it's just, this is going to be bad. We're all going to hunker down and nothing will happen.

Quite the opposite is very likely to happen.

More things will become, you know, kind of, you know, it puts pressure on people. And when there's pressure, people will kind of feel free from they, what decision making process they had before and will kind of have an excuse to look anew at different things. Actually when, when there are lots of.

Stories in the book, my personal favorite.

Is the chapter on dog food that basically during the Great Depression, what is really shocking, and no one had put this research together before. So it's one of those chances where, yes, this sort of look at it.

Really will change the conversation.

Pets became a thing in the Great Depression. You know, the, the not just a thing. Pets became part of the family during the Great Depression. So if you have a dog or if you have a cat and you treat them like family, that comes back from that era where we had, the first time we had dedicated dog and cat food, the first time we had toys for dogs and cats, the first time we had vets that would actually.

Treat dogs and cats.

This was an entire kind of cultural shift. And people thought, well, why on earth. I mean, this is another mouth to feed.

Quite literally another mouth to feed in the family.

Well, think about that. When you're stressed, what do you do?

You know, dogs and cats and pets are one of the best ways to reduce stress.

Does it surprise us at all in retrospect that people would bring dogs and cats and make them part of the family when it was the most stressful time that you could possibly have? You know, we decided to spend what limited resources we had on bringing new.

Family members in, creating more of a mixed family.

As the number of kids was going.

Down, the number of pets was going.

Up almost in lockstep so it was just thinking about like when people talk with me all the time about like, oh gosh, what's going to happen over the next X number of years? Recession or bad things and tariffs and all this stuff and say, look for the opportunities because they will be there. This is kind of an innovator's dream. It's kind of a nightmare for everyone else, but it is an innovator's dream when things go bad.

Oh, definitely. And I, I too really enjoyed the chapter on dog food. I was thinking about that while we were talking about the, the cameras and, and things you spend on, and knowing that also for everybody, miniature golf, ski resorts, place to go, take those color pictures, right? You want to be, be doing that. And how the innovations came throughout were, you know, mentioned and you know, they have their chapters in the book as well. And so to know that like you said, the, what's cool about something like the pet food, right. And so you talk about the process of creating the kibble and that, you know, it helped companies where they were having to get rid of stuff that would have just been, nobody, no human wants to eat that thing, but you.

[Melina Palmer]

Can turn it into something that is.

[Jason Vojovic]

Sellable, that is able to be able to, you know, a better process for the companies to be making more money using scrap, you know, because the pets aren't going to complain about the taste of the food and whatnot. And so then the family gets something that's of value. And just thinking about this, this shift of, you know, people having pets, right, that that's like a thing I can have. And even realizing, like you said with the vet, all the innovation that has.

[Melina Palmer]

To happen kind of around to make.

[Jason Vojovic]

It work, I think is really interesting. So for someone who is thinking, is an innovator or a product designer or.

[Melina Palmer]

They'Re thinking about repositioning, the way that.

[Jason Vojovic]

They talk about their product pitching and selling in a new environment, right where we're saying we are at the time.

[Melina Palmer]

Of this recording, you know, there's some economic shift about.

[Jason Vojovic]

So if we're keeping that in mind, knowing that the things ebb and flow, but, you know, we're at, at a crux of a shift.

[Melina Palmer]

Things are happening. And if you have to be thinking.

[Jason Vojovic]

About repositioning, you know, what advice do you give to people as we look to apply lessons that they'll get from, from your books? You know, what are some key things that you would advise for innovators and inventors and the like?

I think we train innovators to understand.

Their audience and understand their audience's needs, which are critical.

And obviously that's like Innovation 101. If you want to kind of take a step up. What you really need to understand is the entire ecosystem around that innovation.

What does it mean, for instance, to.

Have pets in your home that are part of your family? And you kind of brought up a number of those things, but they bear repeating that. Okay, well, I need medical care, I need veterinary care. And there were no vets. Vets were horse vets or livestock vets. There were no small animal vets in before the Great Depression. So, okay, we need, we need vets, we need veterinary offices.

There were no veterinary offices. There weren't doctor's offices back then, by the way, either. Medical doctors stole that idea from vets who had to have individual rooms to treat pets because dogs and cats would fight each other.

So they need to have lobbies, they needed to have individual exam rooms. Doctors stole that from vets. Just understand that. So, okay, well there's. You needed vet rooms, we needed food for pets.

We needed dedicated food that needed to be shelf stable.

Okay, well how is that food going to be cost effective? So we're going to use parts of the animal that were often not eaten by humans. Okay, well we make that. You also needed to invent co packaging which was, okay, one factory could make lots of different types of kibble for.

Lots of different brands to meet lots of different needs.

Okay, great. Well, now that the you've got basically.

A new family member in the home.

Is that family member going to get a Christmas present?

Probably.

Probably going to get a birthday present.

Probably going to have toys, probably going.

To have clothes, which are completely unnecessary by the way, unless you've got one of those hairless cats in a northern climate.

They don't need clothes. All of those things.

If you think about this entire ecosystem and you really start to draw the line to in order to satisfy this one new need, what are all the.

Things that might happen around it?

Then you're going to be able to start to spot the opportunities and you'll really see is my invention or is my idea going to coordinate or kind.

Of fight against all of these other things?

And you want to make sure that.

You are kind of part of a.

Community where you are understanding all of.

The new things that are going to.

Have to happen in order to make.

This one idea work? So yes, a customer in their needs.

Critical must do you have to make money on your own thing? You know, if you can't make money on your own thing, you're in a lot of trouble. The industry might do well, but you won't. You need to find out, what are those? What are. What does that ecosystem look like?

What are all the coordinating innovations that.

Are going to have to happen? Because sometimes your idea just might not be timed right. Let's say in 1925, you created an entire line of little clothes for dogs.

You had a few people who are really super early adopters, and they put.

Clothes on their dogs. How many dog sweaters do you think.

You'Re going to sell in 1925? Not many.

How many you think you're going to sell in 1935?

A lot. You will sell a ton more.

It's kind of a timing thing. You know, you have to be really conscious that what needs to change. And many innovators struggle with time and timing as part of that.

And the more you can understand the.

Ecosystem and how things are going to kind of develop, the better you will be in knowing when to. When to release and what your expectations.

Should be when you do.

[Melina Palmer]

Absolutely.

[Jason Vojovic]

So for someone that is thinking about.

[Melina Palmer]

This today and they're looking for their.

[Jason Vojovic]

Opportunity that exists, would you recommend they start making friends that might be in these other industries or spaces and other innovators, are they finding something where there's stuff that's starting to, like, fall into place and you're just going to insert yourself in a spot that's like a.

[Melina Palmer]

Blind spot for these other companies?

[Jason Vojovic]

A mix of it. You know, what, what's the thing to be looking for for those who are getting ready to get scrappy?

Yeah.

When you're.

When you're thinking about whatever domain that you're thinking, whatever idea, the best thing you can possibly do is go make friends. Just get out there. I think many innovators today are too.

Comfortable behind a screen. You know, they're too comfortable kind of.

Online and on forums like, hey, I'm hanging out on Reddit. Just understand kind of a rule of online engagement that you kind of have the 1:9, 90 rule. You know, 1% of people are engaged, 9% of people will comment or like, and then 90% of people are lurkers. And then that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Most of the iceberg are people who.

Are just not engaged at all. They're just not in it at all. And if you are designing your product based on the 1% of people who are commenting and who are engaged, you're kind of like the tail is wagging the dog. To kind of continue the metaphor, you need to be out talking to the 80% of people who are not posting on Reddit, who just aren't out there. You need to get out there, you need to talk with people, you need to like, hey, if you are into.

Like, hey, you think that iguanas are.

Going to be the next big pet, whatever, I don't know, I doubt it.

But let's say that they are. You need to figure out, you need.

To get out there and you probably should have an iguana at home.

You probably should be talking with vets, you probably should be making friends with.

Pet food places like, okay, well, I.

Better know that in Florida, for instance, they consider them an invasive species.

So, okay, well, what are the laws around that? You just have to get, you have to kind of get into it. You have to, whatever domain you're in, you've gotta be interested. You have to have that curiosity. You gotta get out there and experience it.

And a lot of inventors that I.

Talk to, they're not quite prepared for that.

I don't think they're curious enough.

And when I think about what makes the difference between a successful and an unsuccessful innovator, there are a lot of things. Luck plays a big part of it, but people think it's like money and connections. It's much more luck and curiosity. That's the big thing. I mean, like, yeah, grit is important. You got to kind of see it through. You got to be patient. There are a lot of other things.

There are a lot of great qualities, but if you're not curious about your.

Domain, you might as well stop, you're done.

Like, that is the number one trait.

That you can cultivate is just be interested. And if you find yourself like, well, I'm not really interested in that. Don't try to innovate there. You won't be successful. Yes, you know, it's kind of write what you like, you know, write what.

You love, write what you know.

You have to be interested in it. Simple as that.

Awesome. Well, great advice for people as they are going to be looking for. Whether it's just reframing the way you talk about your existing product and service. If you're looking to add things on.

[Melina Palmer]

Either side or you're looking to, to.

[Jason Vojovic]

Enter into a new market or space or create something brand new. Lots of options, lots of insights and.

[Melina Palmer]

So much more within the book.

[Jason Vojovic]

So for everyone now that is so excited to go get their copy of the book, you know, what is and to follow you and all the things, right, what's their best path to do so.

Yeah, the easiest place I am one of the good things and the bad things about having a name like Jason Vojovic is that I am. I'm like Tigger, I am the only one. So if you search for me on.

The Google, you will find me.

I'm pretty easy. The best place though, I write innovation history on Substack, so I would invite you to go and subscribe to that. You'll get an email from me once a week or so with different kind of historical tidbits, you know, notes about the books coming out and things like.

That, different opportunities for innovators and inventors.

Or on Amazon is the other good.

Place to find me. You find the books on Amazon really, really easily.

If you're a professional, you want to connect with me on LinkedIn again, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn as well. I'm really open. I am interested in talking with, connecting with anyone who is inventing innovative, creative, anything like that. I would do this if no one paid me it was it. It's something that is kind of a passion for me. I'm very interested in it. So find me, connect with me and I will help you any way I can.

[Melina Palmer]

Awesome.

[Jason Vojovic]

Well, we will of course have links.

[Melina Palmer]

In the show notes to make it easy for people.

[Jason Vojovic]

For those who don't instantly know how.

[Melina Palmer]

They would spell Vojovic, we'll have that.

[Jason Vojovic]

For them and we've got lots of options. So thank you so much again for joining me. It was delightful to chat with you once again.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate the time.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to Jason Vojovic for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really love the difference in the background and experience between the.

[Jason Vojovic]

Stories from this book and Jason's last book.

[Melina Palmer]

The foundation of Choice Culture was amazing and a great insight into behavioral science itself. And then transitioning to the innovation of need and how brands had to shift their product offerings to meet a different type of consumer mindset was really fascinating. I also of course love how this really emulates how whether or not people buy isn't about the price or the rational reasoning behind buying. Instead, it's all about the psychological stuff that happens before you get to the price and that comes in truly understanding your consumer. Like I talk about in my book the Truth About Pricing Refrigerators, for example, being a huge expense for people, but knowing how much it can save you in the long run made it a great investment and something worth saving up for and buying now, even if it kept you from paying for other things. The same, of course, went for cameras and color film and domesticated pets and veterinary services. It was definitely not a need, but they mattered to people when they logically, looking back, might feel like it was a frivolous expense, but it wasn't about that at all. Smart companies and marketers understood that and were able to appeal to those masses and succeed at a time where others might fail. Similar to those flour sack dresses, which might just be my favorite chapter in the book, to see how a company could innovate about the bag. Something came in what arguably didn't matter, but turning it into a value add opportunity that made it so people wanted to buy a specific, specific brand because of the bag it came in and might stock up in patterns and being able to connect with others and showing how a brand really understood the customer base and invested in innovation to develop the different inks to make it possible is so cool and I love that. It's another one of those things that I'm sure other flower brands would have said it was a waste of time, money and resources. I'm sure that short term mindset made it so simple. Some brands lost a lot of market share to the brands that did invest in the bigger picture and provided so much added value to their customers. While we touched on a lot of.

[Jason Vojovic]

Stories today, we barely scratched the surface.

[Melina Palmer]

Of the insights in the book. The history of Monopoly, penny restaurants, the Little House on the Prairie, King Kong, Ripley's Believe it or Not, Snow White, mini golf and ski resorts, Superman and so much more are waiting for for you in its pages.

[Jason Vojovic]

If you're at all a fan of.

[Melina Palmer]

History, I highly recommend checking out Bullfrog's Bingo and the Little House on the How Innovators of the Great Depression Made the Best of the Worst of Times and as we enter into a new chapter in our own world economy, it's probably a good time to consider your own business model. What products or services that you offer aren't going to be a good fit into this new era? What pivots might you make? What innovations could be built into your packaging or peripheral opportunities? Is there something new to make?

[Jason Vojovic]

What will people care about?

[Melina Palmer]

Even if you know the most logical out there, say they shouldn't? What's your dog food or flour sack dress pattern?

[Jason Vojovic]

If you have any ideas, we'd love to hear about them on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz.

[Melina Palmer]

Pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show, notes to make it easy to connect with and tag both Jason and myself, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, including Bullfrogs, Bingo and the Little House on the Prairie and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 503.

[Jason Vojovic]

And thank you again to.

[Melina Palmer]

Jason Vojevic for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

[Jason Vojovic]

It's going to be a lot of fun.

[Melina Palmer]

You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops, and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.