507. Navigating Money and Love

Summary

The Brainy Business | Episode 507: Navigating Money and Love

Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Abby Davison, Co-Author of Money and Love
Release Date: June 19, 2025
Duration: 50 minutes

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Introduction

In Episode 507 of The Brainy Business, Melina Palmer delves into the intricate relationship between money and love, exploring how these two fundamental aspects influence our major life decisions. To unpack this, Melina welcomes Abby Davison, co-author of the insightful book Money and Love. Together, they navigate the psychology behind decision-making, leveraging behavioral economics to provide listeners with actionable strategies for both personal and professional growth.

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Guest Background

Abby Davison brings a wealth of experience to the conversation. With over two decades dedicated to helping individuals within organizations, Abby transitioned to entrepreneurship by founding the Money and Love Institute. Her academic credentials include a BA from Yale University and an MBA and MA in Education from Stanford University. Abby's professional journey spans roles at Gap Inc., Tipping Point Community, and the New York City Department of Education, where she focused on social impact and sustainability.

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The 5 Cs Decision-Making Framework

At the heart of their discussion is the Five Cs Framework, a comprehensive approach to making informed and balanced decisions. This framework is detailed in Abby's book and serves as a roadmap for navigating life's most significant choices.

1. Clarify What’s Most Important (00:01 - 15:42)

Abby emphasizes the Clarify step as the cornerstone of effective decision-making. "The first C is to clarify what's most important to you," she explains (07:17). This involves identifying your core values and priorities, which act as a North Star for all subsequent decisions. Clarification prevents wasted time on irrelevant steps and ensures that every choice aligns with your fundamental goals.

Abby Davison (07:17): "The first C is to clarify what's most important to you. And that step, I'd say is the hardest step to get right. But once you get it right, it actually makes all the other steps fall in place more easily."

2. Communicate (03:56 - 12:42)

The Communicate phase involves discussing your priorities and decisions with those who will be affected. Melina shares a personal example where she and her husband conducted thorough discussions before formalizing their relationship, ensuring mutual understanding and alignment.

Abby Davison (12:42): "The communicate step is about talking with the other person or people who are going to be affected by any decision."

3. Consider a Broad Range of Choices (28:04 - 30:08)

Abby advises expanding your consideration set beyond obvious options to foster creativity. For instance, instead of viewing moving to the suburbs as the sole solution for more space, she and her family explored alternatives like renting an office space, ultimately finding a more flexible and suitable arrangement.

Abby Davison (28:04): "Exploring likely consequences is about overcoming our innate biases and thinking not just short-term, but medium and long-term."

4. Check-in with Trusted Resources (40:18 - 42:29)

This step involves seeking input from trusted individuals who share your values and can provide diverse perspectives. Abby cautions against seeking advice from those whose values misalign with yours, as this can lead to unhelpful or conflicting guidance.

Abby Davison (40:18): "You're trying to broaden the set of consideration, not just ask the people whose voices you already have in your head."

5. Explore Likely Consequences (26:04 - 33:27)

The final C, Consequences, encourages foreseeing the long-term outcomes of your decisions. Abby highlights the evolutionary bias towards focusing on short-term obstacles and stresses the importance of considering both positive and negative future implications.

Abby Davison (33:27): "Consider the effects of your decisions and how that may impact all aspects of your life now and into the future because they're going to shift."

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Types of Decision-Making Styles

Abby categorizes decision-makers into three types:

1. Analyzers: Individuals who rely heavily on data and thorough analysis, often risking "analysis paralysis."
2. Gut Trusters: Those who depend on intuition and quick judgments, which can sometimes lead to overlooking critical information.
3. Middle Ground: People who balance analytical thinking with intuition, adapting their approach based on the situation.

Abby Davison (08:31): "We all have one [decision-making type], not because we think, you know, once you're an analyzer type, like you always have to analyze, but actually because then you can put the guardrails in place..."

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Real-Life Applications and Examples

Melina and Abby share personal anecdotes to illustrate the framework's effectiveness. Melina discusses how she and her husband conducted detailed Zoom meetings to address potential issues before solidifying their relationship. Abby recounts her family's move during the COVID-19 pandemic, highlighting how they creatively solved space constraints without the need for relocation by renting an office space.

Abby Davison (24:49): "We've dealt with health issues for our aging parents, you know, all the things that, you know, we could be thrown at by life."

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Common Pitfalls in Decision-Making

Abby identifies several common mistakes:

• Analysis Paralysis: Overanalyzing data can prevent timely decision-making.
• Premature Communication: Sharing decisions too early can limit collaborative input.
• Framing Bias: Viewing decisions in binary terms (A vs. B) without considering alternative options.

Abby Davison (33:27): "There are so many shades in between, so many choices that might let you get more information before you make an irrevocable decision."

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Key Takeaways and Notable Quotes

1. Don't Slide Decide (43:13)

   "Don't slide decide" serves as a mantra reminding listeners that inaction is, in itself, a choice with its own consequences.

   Abby Davison (43:13): "Don't slide decide. That is intended to remind people that sometimes you people think that not making a decision is just a way of delaying."

2. Building Communication Muscles (24:49)

   Regular, open conversations with significant others strengthen decision-making partnerships.

   Abby Davison (24:49): "Those conversations are a muscle. Right when you first start out, you have to build it and you certainly have to build it together because it's awkward."

3. Creative Problem-Solving (28:04)

   Expanding the range of choices and thinking creatively can lead to solutions that were not initially apparent.

   Abby Davison (28:04): "Having an array of choices is important. That goes with the fourth C, which is to check in with trusted resources."

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Conclusion

Episode 507 of The Brainy Business offers a profound exploration into the interplay of money and love in decision-making. Through Abby Davison's expertise and the structured 5 Cs framework, listeners gain valuable insights into making deliberate, balanced choices that honor both their financial and emotional well-being. Whether contemplating career moves, relationship milestones, or personal investments, the strategies discussed provide a robust foundation for navigating life's complex decisions.

Call to Action:
Melina invites listeners to apply the Five Cs to their own decisions and share their experiences on social media. For those interested in further exploring the topics discussed, Abby's book Money and Love and her newsletter, Practically Deliberate, are highly recommended resources.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• Abby Davison (07:17): "The first C is to clarify what's most important to you."
• Abby Davison (12:42): "The communicate step is about talking with the other person or people who are going to be affected by any decision."
• Abby Davison (08:31): "We all have one [decision-making type], not because we think... but actually because then you can put the guardrails in place..."
• Abby Davison (43:13): "Don't slide decide. That is intended to remind people that sometimes you people think that not making a decision is just a way of delaying."
• Abby Davison (28:04): "Having an array of choices is important. That goes with the fourth C, which is to check in with trusted resources."

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For more insights and resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com/507 and connect with Melina Palmer and Abby Davison through their respective websites and social media channels.

Transcript

[Melina Palmer]

Hey there Melina here. If you've been thinking about raising your prices, maybe waiting for the right time or the perfect plan, consider this your sign. Clients expect prices to rise right now. The key is making them feel good about saying yes. And that's exactly what we do in our four week pricing sprint. Aligning your strategy story and price with behavioral science. I I work directly with just 12 clients a year on this and there are only three spots left. In 2025, you'll walk away with more than just new prices. You will have a behavioral pricing framework you can confidently use again and again and again. Is now your time to raise your prices and sell more confidently? Email me at molina the brainy business.com and let's talk. And of course, when you're ready, let's start the show.

Welcome to episode 507 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Abby Davison, co author of Money and Love. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. Life is filled with decisions. Some are small, like what to eat for dinner tonight.

[Abby Davison]

Others are big, like whether or not.

[Melina Palmer]

You should get married, start a new.

[Abby Davison]

Job, quit your job, move, have kids.

[Melina Palmer]

How much to save for retirement, when to retire, and more. While we all make these kinds of decisions throughout our lives, it can still feel like the Wild west when it comes to how to decide in these scenarios. There are so many options and variables. How can you possibly make the best decision and not waste time in analysis paralysis? Thankfully, there is a framework for that. A simple set of five Cs that provide an intelligent roadmap for life's biggest decisions. And you know my guest, Abby Davison, co author of the book Money and Love and I are discussing that on today's episode. Abby has dedicated her career to helping others achieve their goals. First as a social innovation leader and now as an author, speaker and entrepreneur. Prior to founding the Money and Love Institute, she spent nearly a decade driving social impact at global retailer Gap Inc. Where she served as president of the Gap foundation and co founded the company's employee resource group for working parents. Abby's prior professional experience includes strategy focused roles at Tipping Point Community, the New York City Department of Education and the Bridge Span group, as well as experience serving as an alumni career advisor and coach at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. She holds a BA from Yale University and an MBA and MA in Education from Stanford University. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Abby and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com507.

[Abby Davison]

Now.

[Melina Palmer]

Let'S jump right in. Abby Davison, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

[Abby Davison]

Thank you for having me, Melina. I'm excited to be here.

Yes, I am so excited to have.

[Melina Palmer]

You here with me today.

[Abby Davison]

Excited about the topic and the new book. Before we jump into that, let's, you know, take a step back, which I.

[Melina Palmer]

Guess leads us to the book.

[Abby Davison]

But for those who don't yet know.

[Melina Palmer]

You, can you share a little bit.

[Abby Davison]

About yourself and the work that you do?

Sure. So I am an author, as you mentioned, co author. And I spent the first two plus decades of my career working to help people from within organizations. And then a couple years ago took a leap and started my own organization, the Money and Love Institute Institute. And so I like to say my mom was a librarian and my dad a public health executive. So I like to say that I was born with a book in my hands and a desire to help people improve their well being. And I've just been doing that from in different ways for my whole career.

Oh, I love that. So as you look to like you said, the Love and money or Money and Love Institute, you know, how did that come about? Tell, tell us the history. There's some in the book. But you know, how did you get into that type of, of work? How did this come to be?

Well, I have always wrestled with decision making. Some people say, oh, you wrote a book on decision making, you must be great at it. And I say actually you we often write the books we most need to read. Right? Yeah. So I, you know, I had no problem making small decisions but and some even big decisions where to go to college. I applied early, got into that university and went there. So those were not big ones. But as soon as I graduated, you know, trying to figure out, you know, did I move to a city even though I didn't have a job there, if a relationship was going well, you know, how did we decide to take it to the next level. Those decisions were really tough for me and it wasn't until I took my co authors course in graduate school that I realized why. Because the ways that we're taught to make decisions, the conventional wisdom, if you will, is really not great. So I was always taught. I don't know about you or your listeners, but when you make career decisions, you should really. Or any decisions around finances, you should really think about them with your head and analyze them and. But don't bring your emotions into it. And then when you conversely think about your relationships and who you might want to spend your life with, just follow your heart. And certainly don't talk about finances because that's, you know, materialistic. And the truth is that all big life decisions have an element of money and an element of love in them. And so you need to make them holistically. If you compartmentalize them, you're more likely to overlook a really important element and therefore make a decision you're more likely to regret. And my co author, labor economist Myra Strober, taught a course in Stanford Business School called Work and Family, which is the less sexy way of saying money and love. And when I took this course, it was a light bulb moment for me to say, oh, you know, this is. I am a big picture thinker. I like to think holistically. And I had just been not doing that when it came to my own decision making. And so one of the reasons we wrote the book and why I started the institute of the same name is to help people make better life decisions that allow them to get more of what they want when it comes to money and love.

I love that. And it really comes in, I thought it was so many good points that I want to dive into all of them. But if I'll start kind of back further from some of what you're saying there, I think it's really important when we think about decision making to know, like, you say you were really good at making this decision, that decision. So, like, what college to go to, job that you want to take or whatever, like, easy enough, I can do that. Right. But then there's this other category. Like people will say, oh, I'm, I'm really good at making decisions, but the likelihood that you are great at making decisions in all areas of your life is probably not very high. Right. There's a small spot where you are not great and maybe overanalyze or just avoid everything altogether. So, like, we all have some component of decision making that we can focus on. And, you know, also, even if you would say I'm terrible at making Decisions, there's probably an area that you are good at that can be kind of like a baseline to build from, you know, as you implement different lessons. What, what do you think about.

I guess that I think it's absolutely true. I mean one of the things we learned in our research and have on our website for the book is a quiz to help people identify what decision making style they tend to default to. Because as you mentioned, we all have one and it's we, we share that. Not because we think, you know, once you're an analyzer type, like you always have to analyze, but actually because then you can put the guardrails in place to make sure that you don't tip into analysis paralysis or if you are someone who tends to trust your gut more, you can make sure you're not making decisions too quickly without turning over some of the right rocks that you might need to make sure you don't miss something. So we can all, we can all kind of fill in, you know, some of the blind spots that we do have and make sure that we are, we're complementing our innate tendencies.

Definitely. Well, and so you mentioned a couple of types there. How many are there as far as these decision making types for people that are going to go take the quiz now, as they should and you know, we'll have a link to your website in the show notes. So what's, but what are the kind of type options that they may fall into that they could find out a little bit more about?

Yeah, there are three. There are those of us are who, who are analyzer types. And that's definitely, you know, where I started my journey where, you know, I have multiple tabs of a spreadsheet open and have lots of like lists of pros and cons. And then there are gut trusters. These are people who are kind of the ready, fire, aim type. Sometimes when it comes to making, making big decisions, they, they have a strong sense of intuition and sometimes that serves them really well and sometimes it doesn't serve them as well. And then there are people who are somewhere in between. Right. Those are, it's a spectrum. And you, as you said, you might make a certain decision a certain way when it comes to one area of your life, but, but in others you're more of a blend. And again it's, you know, what we know from Danielle Kahneman's work is that there are multiple systems of thinking. And so this idea of a system, one that is more impulsive or emotional, quicker to access, is, is how we make a Lot of decisions. And then system two, which is more rational, more logical, harder to access. That's the one where we're in an, when we're in an emotional state, it's harder to get to system two thinking. But, but for big life decisions about, you know, where to live, what career to pursue, you know, whether to have a child or, or multiple children, you know, you, you really do want to make that From a System 2 perspective as much as you can. And so part of the work of the book is developing a framework to allow people to move into system two as much as possible, even if they're someone who likes to trust their gut when it comes to decisions.

And so is that being an advocate for saying that the analyzing type is, is somewhat better for some of these, or there's just a balance for, for all of the different types, there's a balance.

And the challenge, and I can say this as a, as someone who, you know, tended to be an analyzer certainly before I got into this work more fully, it's a very close step from analyzing to being an analysis paralysis. Right. And sometimes those of us who are analyzers like to try to gather as much data as possible before making a decision. But two things. One, you'll never have all the data that you want. Right. We do not have a crystal ball, so that's impossible. And then often as you gather more data, it takes more time and you might miss out on, you know, some of the benefits of making a decision more quickly if you continue to gather the data. So that's something that, you know. Yes, maybe it's better to be slightly more analytical than a gut truster, but you can very easily kind of take that too far.

Yeah. And yeah, I was, we were talking in the pre call about something different, but where that like pendulum swing, we don't want to go too far kind of on either side of, of this.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Abby Davison]

Being somewhere in the middle, finding the balance. I was thinking a bit while you were talking about how this ties back to productivity, right. And knowing if we spend too much time analyzing or we spend too much time dwelling or feeling anxious about a decision and just going back and forth and never actually getting anywhere, then, you know, you don't end up getting things done if you spend too much time. And so is there some, as you think about, you know, this decision making and productivity sort of balance and um, you know, how would you advise for someone, you know, maybe do you use the framework for everything or you can have a line to be able to determine when you should Be more analytical when you kind of jump in to help be more productive and how to get to easier, faster decisions, even on big important things that you're going to be happier with and how that ties in with maybe being overall more productive.

Yeah, well, the first. So I'll just say the framework is called the five Cs and the first C is to clarify what's most important to you. And that step, I'd say is the hardest step to get right. But once you get it right, it actually makes all the other steps fall in place more easily. So if you can get really clear on what are the priorities, what are your values, you know, to the extent that that decision is about you, I mean, there are a lot of applications to of the five Cs in the business world. I spent, you know, many years as an executive focusing on social impact and sustainability. And so there you're solving for multiple bottom lines for a company. The book is about personal decision making. So, you know, the 5C framework certainly applies to your individual choices. But, um, once you get clear on what is it you're solving for what is, you know, what is important to you, then it allows you to be more productive and efficient, if you will, at moving through the other steps. And it's not to say that it's linear. One of the things that I love about this framework is that it is iterative and as you go through the Cs and we can talk more about the other ones if you'd like, you start to gather more information and you might feed that back and that might help you re clarify and something. So it's not to say that what you identify at the outset never changes, but just that that clarify becomes the North Star. That then helps you get better, if you will, and more practiced at making decisions as you continue to use it and repeat the methodology.

I think that's so important. I really love what you were saying there on that phase of clarification. Right. And how it can be difficult.

[Melina Palmer]

Right.

[Abby Davison]

It's hard to get right. But once you do it, everything else becomes easier. And we think about that in the case of productivity, you don't want to be wasting a bunch of time on those, the other steps, if they're not leading back to something that's actually important to you. That's where you end up with a lot of that wasted and unproductive time. You know, it's easy to be working on the wrong step stuff that's not going to bring you this different fulfillment and whatnot that you want in your life. And so as we think about that clarify step before we get into the other four Cs, which I definitely want to dedicate time to. When you think about clarifying what's important to you, do you advocate this being something that people do? Like I've got one North Star and everything comes back to it, or is it based on like, there are a lot of little points of clarification and knowing what you want to be working on or, you know, one for money, one for love, one for career, one for family, you know, what's the right approach, you know, or guidance that you would give to people as they figure out what to clarify and how deeply to be finding those points before they kind of jump into the rest of the seas.

I mean, I would say that I'm a big believer that work fits into life, not the other way around. And so having one set of values, one set of guiding principles is my preference. And I also recognize there are seasons, right. So those do change over time. The things that were important to me that I was solving for in my career before I had kids were different right now than, than the things that I'm solving for at this moment where I have, you know, a 12 year old and a. Almost 10 year old and, and I'll likely shift again. So I, I think that it, you know, certainly depends on the question. But the important thing is to put, you know, have your thoughts get quiet and take tune out all the other things that society tells you should be important to you. Right? Society or your parents or your boss or what have you and try to tune in to what is truly important to you and then continue to move through the process because that is, if you will, that clarify is a placeholder for when you, you know, to have something in place. Don't spend, you know, years trying to clarify what's important to you before you continue to move through the framework because you might get new information that will cause you to re. Clarify.

Definitely. I do love. So I think for one, I think you would be proud of. So for my husband and I thought it was very interesting in reading the book and seeing, you know, some of the advice and things that I think line up with us. He is definitely the analyzer type, by the way. I'm probably closer on the going with the flow side of the world for us, but when we got together, so we had both recently been divorced and we opted to have a, we had a zoom meeting because we, you know, worked at different places. We had been friends before and we sat down and scheduled a lunch meeting over Zoom. And we talked about all of the possible things that could make it to where this is, like, super not worth. Like, not worth jumping into a relationship, right? So it's like, we talked about finances, religion, career, where we. We're living in different, like, cities, but within Washington. We weren't that far away. You know, do you want more? He had kids. I didn't have kids. Like, do we want to have other kids? Do we. Do. Would you ever want to get married again? I was like, what is everything that could possibly make this not worth it? Like, let's see where we're at. So very, you know, worked out, right? But all those hard conversations out of the way before we opted to actually go on a date and change, you know, our dynamic. But, you know, we still have those sort of those meetings where we get back together and evaluate. And I've met people over the years that work in, you know, similar areas to the work that you do, where, you know, they have a. Like, once a year, they meet with their significant other and they go have a retreat and talk about their life plan for the next year and, like, revisit their goals or there's, you know, ways they kind of line these things up to revisit and clarify what's going to be the focus this next year or whatnot. And so is there a particular cadence? I know there were some examples. There's so many great examples throughout the book. But, you know, as you think about clarifying with others, too, and kind of overcoming the fear of the conversation, like, opening up to other people, you know, what's the value in that of knowing, as you said, like, money and love come into everything. And so you have to be thinking about all these kind of areas and revisiting them with the people that matter.

[Melina Palmer]

To you in your life.

[Abby Davison]

Well, first of all, I love that you and your now husband did that. That is, I have not heard of anyone else doing that over Zoom.

[Melina Palmer]

But.

[Abby Davison]

But, yes, you know.

But no, I think. I mean, as you mentioned, there are multiple chapters in the book devoted to every stage of, you know, a decision that we tend to find ourselves in in life, including, you know, is this my person? And we do advocate for talking about those big topics before you feel ready. And so I think you. You definitely are a model in that way for doing that. But you also anticipated, you know, the second step, which is to communicate. So if the first step of clarifying is an internal sort of getting the inside view, the communicate step is about talking with the other person or people who are going to be affected by any decision. And so the clarify and communicate steps are go hand in hand. They definitely are, we like to say a bit of a dance because you might share what is important to you. Your potential partner then listens, shares back what you know, how that lands, what it, what's important to them. And that might cause you to shift your perspective. And so you're, you're clarifying, you're communicating and you're adjusting from there. And so my husband and I actually met in my co author's class. He, we both took it as second year business school students as we were trying to decide, do we accept jobs in the same city, do we live together, then if we end up in the same place? And so we were forced by the nature of the class to have big conversations before we felt ready. We'd only been dating about a year at the time, but it served as a foundation for us to continue to talk about big topics regularly. And so we do, you will not be surprised to hear, have a, we call it a summit where every year we kind of talk about, you know, what are the big rocks that are important to us? Are we, you know, how are we doing on some of those from the past? How do we want to adjust things going forward? And it served us well because in addition to actually, as I, you know, mentioned having two kids, we've navigated multiple career changes, job changes and career changes. We're now both entrepreneurs. When we, when we started dating and moved in together, we were first part of our careers. We're working for existing organizations. We've dealt with health issues for our aging parents, you know, all the things that, you know, we could be thrown at you in life. And I'd like to say that those conversations are a muscle. Right when you first start out, you have to build it and you certainly have to build it together because it's awkward. Like, let's be honest, I think if we had not had the directive of the class that gave us kind of radical permission to say, hey, you know, I'm going to work for a nonprofit after we graduate. You're going to work for a hedge fund. We're going to be making wildly different salaries. Is it fair for us to pay the same rent? Like that was a, you know, a conversation of our, you know, very early on and without that invitation to start talking about money right away, to start, you know, having these conversations. I know because I was in previous relationships where we didn't talk about those things. They don't come naturally and they can feel awkward. But now we've done it so much, we've now been married for over 15 years that that muscle is built and the conversations are more comfortable to have.

Definitely. And I was just thinking as you were talking about the kind of division of the rent as one example within that and that there was an example talking about how Myra and her career that she, I think it said, it said four high profile divorce cases that she had been brought in as a witness, expert witness and testimony of being able to talk about how you. The division of the family income and saying like just even if someone's a homemaker and you have someone who is, you know, bringing in all the money to be able to say like this is a joint entity of like the, the home making decision and me staying home allowed for this, you know, our company of a family to have any income. And so we like jointly made that decision and it's 50, 50 kind of regardless, right. Versus having to say, you know, what's the cost of like if you were going to hire someone to wash your dishes, what does that cost?

[Melina Palmer]

Which brings you to a very different.

[Abby Davison]

Place as you're determining kind of value of the roles in a relationship.

Yeah, no, she, she was such a pioneer. She is a pioneer and she definitely served, you know, for, for states that have community property provisions then that 50, 50 is, is assured. But she definitely served as an expert witness for in cases where that was not a legal stipulation. And. And yet you had someone who was responsible for enabling their partner to kind of get to be a partner in a law firm or get to be, you know, the high profile business person that they were. And you know, how do you value that? And so, you know, as a labor economist, she had lots of ideas on how to do that. And obviously now, you know, there's a section in our book on prenups and how, you know to have those conversations in advance as much as possible so that it's not left to a court to decide that that's, that's not the ideal scenario for sure.

Definitely. I just love that kind of reframing of the value proposition. And we see that in just in business pricing all the time. Right. Where we feel like we have to go based on well, the cost I pay for. The thing is this. And I can only possibly charge this percentage above the cost. It's like, don't think about it in that way, like what's the value you're bringing to someone else? And in this case of instead of you know, you would only pay someone X for laundry or to babysit your children or something ridiculous, right? Like that is not the right way maybe to calculate that out. And if we say instead, you know.

[Melina Palmer]

You were able to do this because.

[Abby Davison]

You didn't have to think about these other things. I just love that kind of flip of the frame and how that value comes into play and makes a very clear and obvious case for the equity in that place, which is important. So I liked that. So we've talked about now two of the five C's. Feels like it's a great time to kind of dig into the other three.

Yeah, so those are. Once you've clarified, you've communicated. The third is to consider a broad range of choices. So now you are starting to get the outside view. And part of making better decisions is expanding your consideration set. So having an array of choices is important. That goes with the fourth C, which is to check in with trusted resources. So as you check in, you're starting to get more of the outside view, more of those creative choices you might not have come up with on your own. And that is why it's important to get out of your head and start to start to talk to others at some point. And then the fifth C is to explore likely consequences. And you'll be familiar with this about all the ways that our innate biases help us to see the short term and negative consequences. And so what you're trying to do in this step is to overcome those biases, think about not just the short term, but the medium and long term, and then start to think about not just what could go wrong, but what could go right. So you're doing some forecasting, but in a way to kind of trick your brain to overcome sort of some of those mental biases we all have.

I really love. Well, obviously all five I think are so important. And there are so many points where you can say, I can see where.

[Melina Palmer]

People would misstep here, I can see.

[Abby Davison]

Where people would shortcut this thing right, all the different pieces.

[Melina Palmer]

But there was a point in the.

[Abby Davison]

Chapter or one of the chapters in the book where it was talking about, you know, people moving, you know, if it's worth moving for the career or for whatever else. And I think this might have been a family that was moving to, considering a move to Shanghai. But as in this process, and we think about how hard it's going to be to move now to go do the thing and. But the. And then you just sort of stop at like how hard it is to do this move. But you don't think about, you know, so you think about how it'll be.

[Melina Palmer]

For the first week or the first.

[Abby Davison]

Month or maybe the first year as you're adjusting. But don't think about as you, you'll make friends there, like are you gonna want to come back? What will that be like? And as you think further out in this 2, 5, 10, however many years later, what mindset you'll be in then I thought that was such an interesting and important factor that I would guess almost everyone doesn't do very well kind of naturally thinking about that. Can you elaborate on kind of that aspect a little bit?

Yeah. Well, we are all very good at thinking about what's going to be hard about, particularly about a move because it is, it is so hard. It's one of the, you know, a very stressful thing. And you know, even from my own life, I know that we, we ended up moving both of my kids schools a couple of years ago. And when we first told them that, you know, they were going to be shifting to new schools, they were not happy, particularly my older son. And I think his exact words were, you're ruining my life. And you know, we told him, you know, I understand it's really hard because you're thinking about how you don't know anyone in this new school school and it's going to be further away because their old school was a block and a half away. But here's the thing, this new school goes until eighth grade and your old school only goes until fifth grade. So you'll have to switch schools eventually. And if you switch to this new school, you actually get longer to stay there and you'll be able to have fewer transitions. And there are lots of other advantages that we mentioned. And you know, he was nine at the time, so he kind of was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. But, but I think, you know, part of that we were reminding us ourselves, you know, as, as grownups that yes, there are, there are these short term pain points and yet there is long term benefit that we have to remind ourselves and, and now we are reaping and now, you know, he loves his school and it was definitely the right choice for him and for our family. And part of that is reminding yourself about these long term benefits because we just don't see them as, as humans because of the way that we're wired evolutionarily.

Yeah, definitely. And Vol had our kids maybe tell us we're ruining their life for some reason or another. So you know, we got to make.

Good Company for sure.

So. Or, you know, said that to our own parents or whatever it is. Right. So. But yeah, I think that is so valuable as you think through that consequences the understanding who to bring into the equation as you check in with others and whatnot, and who maybe not to bring into the equation because they're not going to be helping the process.

[Melina Palmer]

As you look at the five Cs.

[Abby Davison]

And thinking about, you know, decision making for people, where would you say that most kind of get hung up? Or is there a point where most people forget or a best place, I mean, you know, to start, which I think is, you know, they go in an order for a reason. So forget I asked that. That seems obvious. But yeah, yeah. Where do people tend to get stuck or really miss or have the most of an aha as they go through the process?

I'd say a couple things. So we already talked about clarify being the hardest but the most important to get right. Another place where people get tripped up is to have the communication step early on. We find that sometimes particularly analyzers want to think through and go through all the steps before they bring in the other person who is important because they want to have, you know, thought through it all and have it perfectly wrapped up and provide the three to five points of evidence that support the, you know, reason that they want to make the decision a certain way. And the reason why the communicate step is as early as it is in the process is that, you know, think about, you know, if, if someone, you know, if your husband came home and said, you know, I think we should move. I've talked to a bunch of realtors. I've even gone to several houses. I, I found the one that we should move to. I've, you know, modeled out the mortgage and I think you're going to love it. So does that work for you? It's like suddenly you're like, wait a minute, you've done all this research without bringing me in and you think you're doing, you know, them a service, but really you're, you're actually kind of missing the ability to bring them along and to have them propose or ideas that you might not have thought of. And so you think about this idea of, you know, making a decision as a partnership, which is, you know, when you decide to spend your life with someone, that's really what it is. It's important to bring them along even when your thoughts aren't fully formed sometime and that can feel uncomfortable. So that's, that's a part that I think sometimes people get tripped up and then the other place that is just harder and certainly I've experienced this. But so critical to success is framing the choices. Because we tend to see the extremes, especially particularly when we're in a state of high emotion, right? We tend to see should I go for the promotion or should I quit my job? Should I, you know, marry this person or break up with them? Right. And the truth is that there are so many shades in between, so many choices that might let you get more information before you kind of make an irrevocable decision that might let you kind of have your cake and eat it too. And you know, be creative. And I'll give you an example. When my, when I was actually writing the moving chapter of our book, it was, you know, about a year into Covid and my kids were still zooming into remote school from my dining room table. I was still working full time in an executive role from my kids bedroom. And we were all kind of on top of each other in our small footprint home. And so when we clarified what we wanted, we thought it was to get more space and to find schools that were open. So we thought we'd have to move. So we went through the whole five seas process. But this idea of moving from the city to the suburbs. And so we thought our choices were really about what suburb do we move to and then what house within the suburb. And long story short, we did the math and we realized actually what, what mattered more to us was career flexibility and the ability to start our own businesses rather than to be tethered to a big mortgage which would require us to work in our corporate roles for a lot longer. But once we made that decision, the choices opened up to us in a different way. And so I mentioned we actually ended up switching my kids schools to find a school that was more suited to what we were looking for and their needs. And then I had the idea of renting an office. So you know, not to move to buy a bigger house that had a home office, but to find an office couple blocks, you know, seven minute walk from my home that allows me to not zoom in to this from my kids bedroom with LEGO bricks underfoot, but my own dedicated space. And that was sort of a creative option that wasn't on the table when we first started thinking about this because we, we thought to get more space we would need to move. So sometimes it just takes the extra bit of creativity and that's where talk. I actually got the idea from someone else who had a similar setup. And so talking to Others seeing how other people have solved a challenge creatively can give you ideas you might not have thought of yourself.

Definitely. And the glad you found a solution that worked and that's in that creative space there. I definitely, I was thinking of other, you know, C's as I was listening, you know, in on the book and thinking about it. Right. As far as this, you know, we're being creative where we're getting curious about different options here and how that like you said, reframing the choices in a way that isn't getting into that polarized A or B and knowing that there are other options if you can pause and give yourself the space to think about them in a more creative way, which I think is so key. Right. And in the, you know, just even the title of the book, you know, being Money and Love, it's not or right. And it's not your head or your gut. It's like you gotta go with all.

[Melina Palmer]

Of this in this process.

[Abby Davison]

Right. We, we need to be thoughtful to the more like complex scenario. There were so many great examples in the book, you know, if there was someone who or two women that both wanted part time work and they had a similar role in mind and they went and I think it said, you know, they spent two years searching for a company that would let them both co own a position that they were able to, you know, build this out when they knew what they wanted. They just had to find someone that had a similar vision and they were able to find this dream job for the both of them that, you know, nobody else would have even seen or would have even thought to try for when you feel kind of stuck in the way things have always been.

Definitely. And I think sometimes those creative solutions are just not what come to mind for us when particularly when we're in a state of stress or high emotion. So yes, I'm all for getting the perspective wherever you can.

Yeah. Do you have any sort of tried and true. I do love all throughout the book, you know, every chapter really has these, you know, examples and questions in summary and things to be thinking about, activities, exercise at the end of them to help people apply what they're learning as it comes to this idea of asking better questions, seeing more choices, I always kind of gravitate toward that. Do you have any sort of methods for kind of getting out of our own way and seeing choices that might not have appeared otherwise that you found have worked kind of over the years for people?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, when it comes to the check in step, I Think one misunderstanding or misinterpretation of that is that you should go and ask people what you should do. You say, like, so I, you know, I need to find more space, like, what do you think I should do? And it's really not about having the other person give you their perspective on, on your challenge. It's trying to get at, I know you faced a similar challenge. Tell me how you approached it. Right. So you're trying to look at, you know, what was their process, you know, what were the choices they evaluated as opposed to kind of asking them to give you the answer. And it's also important to only check in with people who have. Are people you admire. Right. Who's a decision making you trust someone. You know, I've had readers say to me or when I, you know, when I facilitate workshops for companies, sometimes, you know, inevitably someone will raise their hand and they say, well, I already know what my boss is going to say, like, do I have to check in with them? And I'm like, no, if you already know, you do not in fact have to check in with them. But maybe you want to go to other senior leaders within your organization and get their perspectives on, you know, how have they approached things for their team. Bring that back to your boss and say, you know, I, I'm anticipating you might say, you know, we should choose X. However, I've talked to this team and this team and this team and all of their leaders, you know, gave me these other options we might want to consider. Right. And so you're, you're trying to broaden the set of consideration, not just kind of ask the people whose voices you already have in your head.

Right. And, and also the people that, you know when it is on the, you know, personal decision making, if it's someone whose values don't align with your own or someone who, like, I appreciate that this is a great life for you and I know I would hate that. So, like, don't ask them what they think unless you want to see, like, what their decision making is so you can avoid it at all costs or something.

But yeah, definitely think about the people whose, whose lives you do want as opposed to who've made choices that you already know are not the right ones for you.

Yes. And just because if it's your mom, sister, whatever that has, like, feel like you have to ask, even though you wouldn't want to live the scenario that they're in, like, maybe we don't have to feel tied to those relationships and feel like you have to ask before you move into making whatever those decisions are. So. Well, as we go to wrap up the conversation, any other things as you think about, if there's one thing to make sure that the listeners know and can consider as they, you know, go into their decision making future, you know, what would be kind of top of mind for them.

Yeah. So the. So I'd say if you take nothing else away, here is my favorite phrase, don't slide decide. And that is intended to remind people that sometimes you people think that not making a decision. Right. Not choosing is just a way of delaying. Right. So I'm just going to continue to. On the status quo. That's not really choosing. I'm just kind of, you know, kicking this decision down the road. And not choosing is in fact a choice. Right. There are certain options that may not be available to you, you know, down the road when you get to that point. And so make sure that, you know, if you're making a decision, for example, to move in with someone to save on rent or because your lease is up, that you are doing that deliberately. Right. Because you believe that that is a person you want to combine your life with and combine your finances with. And you've had all those conversations in advance. And so you, you know, take inspiration from you, Molina, and have the zoom meeting to make sure you know, you know, if you know how much they're comfortable spending on rent and if you what their FICO score is even. Right. Like just some, some things that we don't think are important. But really you need to be deciding deliberately wherever you can. So don't slide decide.

Oh, I love that. That is such a great line. And something, you know, that helps to make it feel very tangible to know that, you know, as the time goes on, you know, every non decision is still a decision, right. You're doing something in that. I'm reminded for anyone who wants to open those vulnerability loops and have those uncomfortable conversations. The other thing that my husband and I did early on is we played a game that we called the worst thing about Me. And you'd say like the. Well, the worst thing about me is. And it was all that stuff that was kind of weighing us down from past relationships where like someone made you feel bad about something or you couldn't talk about something else or. And so being able to say, you know, for me it was worst thing about me is that I really love glitter, like sparkly things. Right. Because, you know, people in my life had told me that I was like an adult now and I shouldn't like.

[Melina Palmer]

Those things and think I hate that. Right.

[Abby Davison]

And so opening up about maybe some silly things and then you work in some serious things can help make those hard conversations easier. So you know, whether you do a full zoom meeting or play that game or not just having conversations and opening up, I, I'm an advocate for as well.

That's brilliant advice and one of my favorite questions. I'm going to add your favorite question to my next conversation with my husband. One of mine is what do you like to spend reckless amounts of money on?

Ooh, I love it. That's fun. Or, or time in might be a big piece too. Right. Because time is life and money in that way. Right. Exactly. Perfect. Well, I love it and thank you so much for everyone who is now so excited to go get their copy of Money in Love and to, you.

[Melina Palmer]

Know, learn more and follow you.

[Abby Davison]

Connect all the things you know, what's the best path for them to do so?

Well, the book website is moneylovebook.com and I also have my personal website, abbydavison.com where you can can sign up for my monthly newsletter. I write called Practically Deliberate, which is my adventures in living deliberately and making Deliberate Decisions as much as is reasonable.

I love it. Great title. We'll of course link to all that in the show notes and you know, to LinkedIn and whatnot for people to follow you and connect as well. So thank you again so much Abby for the book and for joining me. It's been really delightful to chat with you about money and love and all the things here today.

I loved our conversation and for the record, I think glitter is fabulous. If that's the worst thing about you, then you know.

It can do. Thanks.

[Melina Palmer]

Thank you again to Abby Davison for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really appreciate how simple this framework is and knowing that it can be applied to so so many scenarios. As a reminder, the five Cs are clarify, consider what you want and don't through self reflection. Then you want to communicate. Include input from those who are going to be impacted by your decisions in your decision making process. Next are those choices. Broaden your perspective to open up your options. You also want to check in, ask for advice, guidance and resources. And finally, can't forget those consequences. Consider the effects of your decisions and how that may impact all aspects of your life now and into the future because they're going to shift. Got to remember that reframe. Also remember that this framework can apply to essentially any big decision you have to make in life and business. Where to live? Should I move? Go for that promotion. What's my ideal life? Is now the right time to get married?

[Abby Davison]

To have kids?

[Melina Palmer]

To get divorced? To change careers? There are so many examples from real people throughout Love and Money to help inspire you and show you how you can apply those five C's to your life. And remember, it isn't love or money for a reason. Every decision, every opportunity includes both of those things. It isn't head or heart, it's all both. So it's time to clarify what's important to you. Communicate that with the important people in your life. Evaluate lots of choices beyond obvious options. Check in with yourself and others and consider those consequences so you can decide and not slide. And now you're ready to go. So what decision will you focus on first? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. And if you haven't already, check out my TEDx talk. There's nothing magical about Monday for more tips on doing one thing at a time and getting more of the right things done. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books including money and love, ways to get in touch with Abby and myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 507 and thank you again to Abbey Davison for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.