← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
508. Unlocking Consumer Insights: The Power of Implicit Testing with Dr. Keith Ewart
00:48:15
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer revisits an insightful conversation with Dr. Keith Ewart from Cloud Army, focusing on the power of implicit testing and its ability to enhance business outcomes. Keith shares his expertise...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 508 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Keith Ewart of Cloud army to talk about implicit testing and how it can improve your business outcomes. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:23]
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:39]
Hello.
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Dr. Keith Ewart
Hello everyone.
- [00:40]
Melina Palmer
My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Have you ever created something like a marketing campaign or a new product that seemed great on paper but didn't connect.
- [00:52]
Dr. Keith Ewart
The way you hoped it would?
- [00:53]
Melina Palmer
You're not alone, and it might not be the big idea that's the problem. It could be what's happening deep within your audience's subconscious. Today's refreshed episode, which originally aired back in December of 2021, is a replay of my conversation with Dr. Keith Ewart from Cloud Army. Keith shares fascinating insights into how implicit bias testing works, getting at Those fast emotional system 1 reactions that people can't consciously articulate. This matters so much when it comes to advertising, branding, packaging and customer experience. Because what people say they want and what they actually feel and really want aren't always the same thing. And I brought it back now for a very specific reason. It pairs beautifully with this Thursday's brand new conversation with Dr. Jake Teeny. In that upcoming episode, Jake and I unpack a question I know many of us have asked. How do bad ads get made? Especially when they're created by smart people with great intentions and solid creative teams. One of the biggest culprits is not testing early enough or not testing the right things. And that's exactly where today's conversation with Keith comes in. With decades of experience, including his time at Procter and Gamble and now at Cloud Army, Keith shares how brands can tap into the real responses people have to packaging and advertising the gut reactions, the system one stuff, the kind of feedback your audience can't always articulate, but that drives their decisions all the same. We talk about tools like implicit association testing and emotional resonance analysis, methods that go far beyond the typical focus group or post campaign survey. These insights are key when you're designing messaging, packaging, or products that need to land instantly in the hearts and minds of your audience. So if you want to create work that connects and avoid the classic how did this flop? Moment, this is an episode you'll want to hear and rehearse really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@thebrainybusiness.com 508. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Keith Ewart, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [03:12]
Dr. Keith Ewart
Hello. Thank you very much.
- [03:15]
I feel like this happens a lot where I introduce people and they are laughing and it's usually because I ask how to pronounce their names. And I think then it's that question of if I'm actually going to get it right when it's a little bit of a different pronunciation, like when Ingrid Nguyenhus was one, which I know I'm still not doing correctly or justice to, and I apologize, Ingrid, but.
- [03:41]
Well, no, the amusing thing is that when I go to America, if people don't ask, I get called E Wart. Right. And then the other one is that when they hear my accent, they go, are you Mrs. Doubtfire or Shrek? So in both cases, they're not actually the most joyful, let's put it that way.
- [03:59]
Well, I think that Mrs. Doubtfire and Shrek are both very delightful.
- [04:07]
Thank you very much.
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Yeah. So on that note, go ahead and tell everybody where you're from and who you are. I mean, you don't necessarily have to go back into all your history of where you're from.
- [04:17]
When I was born. Exactly. So I was born in Edinburgh, so I'm a proud Scot, but have lived most of my life actually down in London. I worked for 24 years with Procter and Gamble in a senior insights packaging role. And upon leaving P and G, I then started working with a company called Neurostrata. And then subsequently, the last four years, I've been working with a company called Cloud army, which I'd be more than happy to talk to you about, but also more than happy to talk to you about my life and works at Procter and Gamble as well.
- [04:56]
Yeah, well, let's go ahead. And we are definitely going to talk about Cloud army stuff, but, you know, you talked about doing some packaging stuff at P and G. And is that like with your doctorate, is it directly tied in or was it in something a little different?
- [05:11]
Totally different. So I did a doctorate in extraction of gold from gold or using bacteria. So, you know, you talked earlier about some strange experiences with worms. Well, here's another one for you. So we Used to look at, not look at, but we used to watch the these bacteria chew away at rock at pH2 and effectively release the gold from the iron pyrites. And sponsored by an Australian gold mining company. So how did I get from there into one of the world's largest consumer goods companies? Well, I actually started off in microbiology so I was very lucky to work at Proctor in basically nappies. I used to look at analyzing nappies and their poo and Milton was one of the brands they had. And so my job was to understand how much bug kill they were getting. And that involves scraping nappies. Absolutely. You could always tell a breast milk fed baby from a non breast milk. So there you go, there's an insight for you. I also worked on denture cleansers. So I went from one extreme age to the next. And then having worked in microbiology for about only a year and a half, I saw the wonderful world of Insights and requested a move and was very lucky to get a move into Max Factor Cosmetics. So my job from going from the whole microbiology was to then go and speak to women about what they were looking for in a mascara or a lipstick or a foundation and beyond. And worked there for quite a few years before doing skincare. So worked for Ole all in the R and D world. So we were looking very much at developing the next latest and greatest product. And then the latter years of my career with Proctor were spent both in a packaging role. So an Insights role for packaging. And then the last seven years was with Gillette which was absolutely wonderful, you know, as an organization and you know the technical nounce that they had, it was, it was unbelievable. But I'd say another key part of my, if you like, life at Procter and Gamble was in packaging and thinking about how we would get, well, develop better packaging solutions. And it was there that I really came across far more of the wonderful world of in store and communications and the packaging impact, but not only understanding all of the communication side, but also what it had to do, what it had to deliver. And I think that helped me in the, in the long run. And certainly it's an area I always draw upon now as I, as I work with clients as well.
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So what are some of the generalized, I guess, insights of packaging that you're able to share as far as you know, tips or tidbits?
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Yeah, I mean obviously you know, I signed my life away when I, when I left, but I think it's out there and it's in the public domain now. Proctor were very Much into the. Into what they would call customer journey and thinking about all of the touch points. So touch points I think is. And these models will hold true in many, many different companies, I'm sure. But the idea of understanding the packaging impact, whether that be at the advertising stage and they used to call that the. I don't know if you've heard the expression zero moment of truth. And then we get into what they call so that think about that as the first time they've kind of been, maybe it's advertising or the first time they've seen it, then they're thinking about maybe making a purchase. Now in our days and that many years ago, that was all about the. In store laterally, it's now become as much about the Internet as well. But it's then how is it appearing? How is it, how is it, how does it look? Is it standing out? How easy is it to find your product on the shelf? And then if they make, they're going to go to make a purchase, is it engaging? Is it emotionally appealing? What does it then evoke to you? And then if they do eventually make that purchase, so we always used to talk about a thing called stop, hold, close, rather does it drive that purchase? Does it make them then buy it? And then a key component of all of that is then they use it. So they then have to, in the case of the packaging, they have to take it home. It has to be transported, it has to be taken, taken from the store, from the trolley, into the car. Then from the car, you have to then take it into the home. Then you're taking it from the home. Where are you putting it? Where are you storing it? Is it visible? Are you putting it in a cupboard? Are you putting it away from sight? When you first open it, what is that sensation? And we were encouraged very much to be thinking about multi sensorial signals. So when it's first opened, is there a smell of oat? Is there a sound? What does that sound connote? Is there a tactile feel to it? What does that tactile feel connote as you make that first pour or as you first dispense it? What's that like? Is it gloopy? Is it running smoothly? Because all of those has connotations for the brand and the brand experience. And then the next time they use it, in fact, after you've used it, you're then putting it away. Where do you put it away? How do you put it away? After you put it away, how is it then displayed? Does it look Messy? Does it look a Scottish expression? Does it look clatty? Is it something that then encourages you to want to use it again? Then finally, when you get to the end of its life, what then happens? How is it then disposed of? Now again, I'm harking back to 10, 12, 15 years ago, all of those things would have been considered as important. I think now when we think about the world of recyclability and disposability follow with great interest. Some of my ex colleagues work in this whole area, this kind of whole circular economy and what's going to go on. And I think that's really, really critical. All of those things kind of come to bear. And then finally we call it the third moment of truth, which is, was that whole experience so good that you'd want to tell your friends about it? You might even want to go online, you might want to write about it. In fact, I think in your book I refer to some of this, some of the things you were referring to there were this whole idea of testimonials and people actually endors it and actually becoming real brand advocates. So it's not just about celebrities. It's also about your best friend saying something or, you know, you're sitting in the pub with a mate and you say maybe not so much about the laundry product. Then they might talk about a bottle of whiskey they've had and have you had a taste? And have you tried this? And wow, look at this. That's the kind of thing you're looking for?
- [11:58]
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you. I know you mentioned my book and I know that we talked before that you went through and read the book before our conversation. So thank you for that. That's good dedication that we don't always get on the guest side. So thank you so much for doing that and putting in that extra effort. So there's so much that you talked about that I have some past episodes on and things that people can find in the show notes. There's a whole series on the senses and we're talking to about some of the priming. There have people that have been on, we talked about customer experience before and that social proof, like where you're talking about in those referrals and recommendations. I love that, you know, going from, you know, zero moment of truth is a thing I think, you know, we learn about in business school, right? It comes up and you go, oh yeah, the zero moment of truth, that's a thing. But how often people are just done after that, right? It's the zero moment of truth. And then it's everything else. But, like, where you're talking about, well, this is the. Not just then the first, the second, but even that third of, like, are you going to be sharing, you know, are you going to be encouraging others to go in and buy? And while people do think about those moments in an experience, to have it be the like, third moment of truth, I think is something not enough people talk about.
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Yeah, I mean, I think the really interesting thing, I mean, one of the things since leaving Procter and Gamble, what I realized is that there is no such function in many companies. So I was called what they call product research. So I was actually, as I said to you, I think before, when we talked about cosmetics and skincare, my job was to talk to consumers about their experiences going all the way through. We didn't focus so much on the advertising. It was far more about the product and package usage experience. And you'd go and do things like in homes, you would literally sit. Now, nowadays, it's still advantageous to go and do in homes, but equally you get people doing this now online, and people are quite happy to expose their lives online and sort of show you how much of that is true. True. You know, you're onto a good one with a good interview. When the house is a mess, when it's all neat and tidy, you're kind of going, hang on a minute here, this looks a little bit dodgy. You know, either that or they're clean freaks. Now, we do talk to clean freaks. We talk to, you know, we talk to extreme users in many cases, because actually the insights you get from extreme users is great. But equally you get great insights from talking to people who are not as involved. Why are you not involved? And we do a lot of things around barriers. What are the barriers to people doing stuff as well as what are the drivers we want to drive, the habits. Again, another area that you kind of covered in your book. And at the same time, we want to uncover what those barriers are. Because if we understand those barriers, then we can put solutions in place. Now, we would focus on the product and the pack solutions, but at the same time, by working closely with the marketeers, we would then be able to understand where the sweet spots are. How would we talk about that now? Again, I go back to my old world. That would then entail a whole lot of concept development. We'd get a big company in, we'd go and spend a whole lot of money with them to create some new ideas. But it's all based on Core insights. Insights, insights, insights. Equally, the R and D team would go off and we'd create lots of prototypes, create lots of packs. And one of the things that we started to do was really try and speed things up. One of the biggest barriers to innovation is speed. Two things, speed, cost and dare I say it, politics. Politics of just trying to get alignment, just trying to get communication. And that's one of the reasons why small lean companies can often get really quickly in there because they don't have all of this hierarchy and everything else going on. But the other thing is nowadays, and this is the thing that we will touch upon as we get into the conversation is we can do things really quickly because of these new online capabilities. And that's really exciting. I go back to my old world where months would be spent with agencies crafting and fine tuning and then often, and this was a real frustration they would come to us with, here's our final pack, please go and test it. And off we go, we test it. We use all the existing big companies methodologies, etc. And they come back and say it's not working, it's not performing. Okay, that's fine. Have we got time to make changes? Actually no. Do you know what? We've got to get it out there and then what that means. And that was where my biggest frustration was. There's no time, there's no time to make changes, no time to make iterations. So I'm a massive, massive fan of what we call fast cycle learning, rapid prototyping, bringing ideas to life earlier on and get the voice of the consumer in the room as quickly as possible.
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Yeah, it's, I can't even imagine how frustrating it would be where you know it's not working or going to work and that you have to move forward anyway. It's so demotivating for everybody.
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Absolutely. But you know, then it's not necessarily going to be a rip roaring success or if it's a rip roaring success, as a rip roaring success, despite the fact that it could be even better. And that's the key kind of, that's the key kind of challenge in all of this is, you know, to, to how do you get, how do you make judgments and inform judgments? Now I say judgments. I don't like being in situations where the person in the room with the most seniority is the person who makes the decision. I would far rather get the voice of the consumer in the room to the point where we have run ideation sessions. So I used to facilitate what we call prototyping sessions, ideation sessions. We would be able to get consumer feedback literally overnight. Therefore, you don't have then the most senior person. I've seen situations where. Have you heard of power dot exercises, where everyone has a certain number, you've got a whole lot of ideas, you've got an idea as well, and people then put dots on those ideas. What happens again is you get this thing called herd mentality. Wherever the senior person puts their dot, you almost feel obliged to kind of put your dots in there. And what inevitably happens is you end up with ideas that are skewed by certain individuals. It's a bit like. Have you ever watched the dynamics of focus groups where the alpha male, alpha female, or maybe just even somebody who's maybe not an alpha, but it's actually got very good reasoning behind them, but before you know it, everyone's gone in that direction. And actually what you're really wanting to do is you want to understand different people's perspective. A good facilitator does a great job of getting that, but it still can be clouded by individuals. And what you really want is an individual's true response to things. And ideally more than just one focus group or two focus groups, because decisions shouldn't be made on that basis. They're great for qualitative insights, they're great for revealing things you might not have thought about before. I would advocate you'd be even better doing some big. Some deeper in depths with some key targeted individuals and do things like. Have you heard of a thing called metaphor elicitation?
- [19:28]
I don't believe I've heard that one. So let's. At least we'll announce it for the world.
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Yeah, it's an idea of using mental metaphors. So getting people to use imagery.
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Oh, metaphor elicitation.
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Yes, absolutely. Is my accent.
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So funny enough, your episode is going to be coming out right after we're having two amazing guys from Olson, Zaltman talking about the work they do. And it's. Yeah, definitely metaphor.
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Fantastic. Spot on. And this lines up because what you're doing there is you're using imagery to get people to describe their thoughts and feelings about something. And then you're probing and you're looking to understand what's going on there. So, so. And you're. You're going deeper and you're always asking why, why, why? And ultimately you're then understanding those underlying. So we work closely with individuals who are experts in that area. And the beauty is because you're using imagery and you're then looking at Associations with that imagery. And if you think about us as having a capability that's able to measure associations using reaction times, then actually there's some great synergy there. So not only are you using imagery to understand at a deeper level, but then you can also use imagery to then evaluate as well. So in other words, you can start to think about concepts, positionings and using imagery to then convey those particular brand positionings or brand benefits you want to get across.
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Well, I think we have made the perfect segue into what Cloud army does and what you do with Cloud Army. So do you want to talk a little bit about the type of research and maybe sharing for any client stories you're able to actually talk about what you've done?
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Yeah, I will talk broadly enough that you'll be able to see what's going on, because what I don't want to do, obviously every company, we have our NDAs, we have all these confidentiality and I can talk broadly enough because there's enough things in the public kind of domain. But effectively, how did I end up working? Cloud army might be a nice kind of segue as well. So what, what started off when I left Proctor is I did get involved with a startup. We were doing crowdsourcing using people using mobile phones to reveal consumer insights in store. And that's great, really interesting. However, there were some things still I still had, if you like, passion for packaging. And I came across two people, Tom Noble and Darren Bridger, who part of a company called neurostrata. And neurostrata were very much into an understanding consumers at a deeper level. We'd actually used them at Proctor for some shaving work and also some other work in the company. And they said, look, you've left now, love to get your perspective on some packaging work that we're doing. So I was able to kind of go back and look and see what they were kind of doing. But one of the key components that they were looking at at that point was to look at, at true implicit look at Fast Choice and to look at using standard. You're familiar, I've read it in your book, Daniel Kahneman, System 1, System 2, and they were looking in particular at implicit as a methodology to truly understand consumers at a deeper level. Fast Choice being another very good tool, if you like, for understanding consumers reactions and associations with particular stimulus. And then obviously System two is more of the standard, if you like, survey. And as I went through it and talked to them, well, we love what was going on, but there were potential add ons that we could see. And at that point, so we were early enough in the relationship that we were speaking at that point to a software company called Cloud army, who are basically real wizards. I mean, I can't ever profess to being able to do what they do. But they're programmers. But they're also programmers who have, if you like, a background in the whole field, if you like, of Neuro. So they were able to understand what we were looking for, translate that into creating this platform. And this platform that they've created now allows us and our clients to then assess different stimulus using what we call a multimodal approach. In other words, the platform has been developed in such a way that it can flex. So when you do implicit reaction time testing, and I don't know if anyone on the podcast has talked about that before, I'm happy to give you my Mickey Mouse view. I'm not the world's expert, but I will do it effectively. There are two components, let's say true implicit. So for true implicit testing, you'll be. Or people your listeners may be familiar with. Thing called the, Iet implicit association test, came out of Harvard, was being used for to understand underlying racism. That's one form of implicit testing. There are other forms. One of the tools that we use, I think, called evaluative priming, there's things like single category, Iet there's a number of others. And our chief Science officer, Darren Bridgers, a real expert in these and has written a couple of books. So that's another reference to you on all of these. But my takeaway. So the beauty of a true implicit methodology is that consumers don't even realize that they're being evaluated. It's based solely on reaction times. Put simplistically, if I wanted to understand whether somebody was positive or negative about something, we would call that something like emotional attraction. Are they drawn towards it? Are they kind of drawn away from. Then the simple thing would be you'd sort. I'm keeping it really simple here, but if I wanted to sort positive and negative, what I do is I'd have two buckets. I'd have a bucket called positive and a bucket called negative. The word positive would come in, and I have to sort that to the positive bucket. The word negative comes in and I'd have to sort it to the negative bucket. It's as simple as that. And then we record their reaction times. You then flash up images just before they're doing that same sorting task. And what you're doing is you're looking at the delay or speeding up because if the image comes up followed by positive, but in their heads they're going, no, I feel a bit negative about that. Then what you get is something called cognitive dissonance. And what that then means is that there's a delay in the reaction time in the sorting positive to positive. And then likewise if the word negative comes in, but they're going, well, I feel quite positive about that. Then actually there's a delay in sorting negative to negative. And sometimes they actually sort it to positive. They sort the word negative to positive because their brain's going, you know, I'm feeling quite positive about that. It's a bit similar to, have you heard of the Stroop effect where you're asked to shout out colors? So red comes up and it's in red, red comes up and it's in blue. And you're not able to shout it out as quickly because you're looking at a blue color with a red. It's not dissimilar to that. It's cognitive dissonance. So we're picking that up and then just through our solutions, we're then able to understand whether an image, a message is more associated with positive or more associated with negative. The consumers are not reacting and saying I'm more positive or more negative. It's solely based on reaction times. So that's what we call a true implicit test. Where are we using that? We're using that for packaging, we're using it for messaging, we're using it for advertising, we're using it for across the board. It's the kind of thing that can be used across the board. What's the watch outs, what's some of the concerns? It's a true non conscious, it's by its very nature a little bit more noisy. So you have to have more replicates. So it's not a simple one number answer. You have to put number of things through. You have to then manage all of that. And that's exactly where the platform comes in. And we're able to do all of that automatically. The clients don't have to worry about all of that. They just need to know that they're getting a true non conscious response to a set of stimulants.
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Yeah, and like you said, as far as the consumer doesn't necessarily know that what's happening in the moment or why they're being asked these questions. And even if they do, you can't stop the microsecond pause to trick the system or something.
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That's the Beauty of it. And unlike if you like standard fare, where you can get flatliners, have you heard of that? Where people have got a paper questionnaire and they literally just draw down the line because everything's excellent, everything's excellent. And I want to get through and get my money. In this particular instance, with a true implicit, you cannot cheat the system. You have to get the answer right. Because we'll bleep you if you don't sort positive to positive or negative to negative. We can put a warning sign up, we can do what we want back to what the platform is. If we want to sort left to right, we can do that. If you want to sort above and below, it's click of a button and it all gets switched around. That's the beauty of the platform, because we understand that people want to set their own tests up. So I explain it now as an Insights person working hand in hand with a software development team, it means you're a bit like a kid in a candy store. Because if I decide actually, oh, this single category, it, we've got two things on the top, we want to sort them. Oh, yeah, no problems. We can do that for you. So in other words, if I want to design my own test, I can do that. You know, it's not a problem. The key thing is, what's the objective of the client? What's the objective? And then what's the best tool to then understand and utilize.
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Melina Palmer
Right.
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Dr. Keith Ewart
And so everyone knows it's not that it always has to be positive, negative as the terms. Right. So we can do other things that we're looking at.
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Spot on. I'm just using that as an example. You could use high quality, low quality, you could use good value, poor value. You know, you can even use the words yes and no if you wanted to, or you can even use iconography. You could have a smiley face and a sad face if you really wanted to get at the underlying metaphors and you want to take it completely away. The point is that the world's your oyster here in terms of test design. And as we said before, this is something you can't cheat.
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Melina Palmer
Yeah.
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Dr. Keith Ewart
So one of the things I'm doing with this series itself, like the. So I'm doing, like I said, I talked with Olson Zaltman, Eye Motions with Cloud army, you know, talking about just some of the ways that people can be doing tests and trying to, I think, shed some light on this. One of the things that I found and I've said for years on the show is I don't want you to wait to call me if you have something you're interested in or that you think you might have a project because you don't have the perfect question yet. Like just because you don't know exactly what you need to ask to run the test, don't wait to call because that's what the experts are there to do. So your problem statement could be very vague of saying like, we're not sure about X, I don't know how to solve this problem. How might you be able to help us?
- [31:00]
I think, Melina, you've hit the nail on the head. I think the critical part of taking any brief is to truly understand what's going on and to go through different scenarios. I think we spend more time probably up front just trying to understand the problem. Because once you understand the problem, then you can put your problem statement together and then you can start to go, okay, now that we truly understand the problem. And I think another thing I'd call out and you again did it in your book, which I was delighted to see, is context. So what is the context in which you're testing this? Because this is a standalone or do you want to provide some context of actually the world has changed or is it a particular situation? Again, on our platform we can put little videos together beforehand to provide the context. We can use virtual to help people understand that as well, or just even a series of slides. But I think context is key. Defining what you're really trying to get at and then what does success look like? And again, if you like, this is part of critical kind of P and G training is making sure that whatever your, your, your problem statement can be defined and can be measured and then once you've defined that, then making sure that when you get your data back, and that's the bit I'm involved with now heavily is, is taking the data and translating it into what we call actionable insights. Because it's all very well saying something is higher than another thing, but then this is so what? Well, what are you going to do with that data? Ideally this is higher than this. And the reason is as we look through the all the data. So a typical test for us would be something like an implicit component, fast choice component with a series of attributes, some sort of preference, maybe most preference with. Why? Because verbatims help. You know, I'm not. We do not throw away the baby with the bathwater. We are here to help augment. We talk about augmenting existing methodologies. I don't want to diss I think every tool has been there and has historically been there for good reason. But that's not to say that there are other things that people should consider. And whenever I look at a problem or an objective, I always think about the different pieces of the jigsaw. What will this give me? What will this give me? What will this give me? And sometimes you get conflicting bits of information, but I'd rather have those conflicting bits of information because what it does is it provides a rounded story. So our job is to take that and then translate it into the so what? There's no point in saying X is greater than Y. There's job done. X is greater than Y. And we believe the reasons why are the following. And that's where we talk about neuro optimization. We talk about drawing upon our own experiences, but also the. And what we've learned through the years of working in this area as well. We have a high point. We put a hypothesis together, it could well be this. We hypothesized based on previous experience that this is one of the things the number of times we tell people. And this again comes back to cognitive load. Keep things simple. The number of times we test things and everyone's throwing the kitchen sink at it. And people's brains are tired, they can't cope with so much information. So keep it clean, simple. What's the message you're trying to get across and if so, amplify that. A rich area that we've just been looking at recently as well and you know, is the whole distinctive assets. So you know, Byron Sharp and understanding about mental availability and everything. Well, one of the things we can do with the tools and capabilities we have is we're able to understand what are the things that your brand uniquely owns and what are the things you then want to be amplifying. What are the associations those elements have. So a rich area for me of understanding is how many people can truly say they know what their brand stands for, not just what their brief says, what their brand pyramid, their brand Apple, all of these. What does the consumer really think is the most important component of, of their brand? Because that's the thing that people will then always remember or at least be first. Top of mind, top of mind, mental availability.
- [35:11]
Right. That's in the Priming chapter. I'm pretty sure I included the same and I think I talked about it in the episode on Priming, on the podcast as well about the, you know, a test where they did the flash of an IBM logo and an Apple logo and the people were More creative and innovative with when they had that microsecond of an Apple logo. And you think about how many brands, like if your logo comes up for boop, like barely recognizable that it would have that resonance to impact behavior. And for a lot of brands that's not the case.
- [35:49]
Well, and not just visual, but things like audio and then scent as well. So the whole multi sensorial all kind of comes brings to bear but it's truly understanding because in a world where we're proliferating, proliferating skus left, right and center. You know, used to be that the retail environment had a kind of constraint. Well now with the Internet and everything else, it's just multiplied. So how in amongst all of that noise is your, is your brand voice being heard or being seen or. And if so, what is it about that that you can then truly amplify and then make a big deal about?
- [36:28]
Right. And so one of the, I guess boiling down and I know there are lots of benefits in doing research with Cloud army, but I think one of the things, and like you've sort of alluded to here is when you're talking about the issue with the packaging and the testing with P and G that you would go through the process and you're too far down the line even when the insights come in to make a change. And so with this implicit reaction rapid testing that you're able to do earlier on in a process, it can help you make better decisions earlier on. So you're going down the right path. And like you said, so I have an entire chapter about what problem are you solving. I have an episode of the podcast I talk about all the time. Everyone should spend more time understanding the problem. So I'm so glad that that is something you said that you all spend most of your time making sure you're asking the right question and then the test is easy. In the Einstein model, you spend 55 minutes understanding the problem before you go about solving it for your one hour of time that you have. So someone being able to use that experience that you all have from years and years and years in all these different industries in this neurospace and understanding what's happening and like you said, having context from, you know, another client saw something like this. So I bet this is what's happening here so you're able to understand those problems and then test quickly and adapt in a way that you can then find what's going to be optimized packaging or an advertisement or whatever that happens to be.
- [38:03]
Can I give you a Little anecdote, of course, and without necessity, disclosing the client. But we recently did some work with a large retailer and what was really exciting is that they got us to work hand in hand. So they saw us as the quant agency and we worked hand in hand with the qual agency. And in parallel, we turned a project round in, I would have said probably a couple of months max with a number of iterations. And that went all the way through from the name of the product. Okay, so the first bit of research was, let's find out the name of the product. So we did literally a 24, 48 hour turnaround because it was a broad enough base that we could get sample through. We use a number of online recruiting partners. We've got it all set up. So that's really quick. And they were really pragmatic and didn't say, I want 200 people, but they all have to be brand owners. They all have to have this amount of purchasing power they all have to have. Because what happens is the more constraints you put in place, the longer things will take. And at this precise moment, the thing to do was to keep the sample broad. And they were smart and pragmatic enough to say, yeah, no problems, we'll do that. And as a result, they get results, turn around really quickly. So within a 48 hour turnaround and at the same time they had their qual feedback from their groups. This agency were really smart as well. They were doing it dynamically so the client was listening into the consumer groups. We were doing quant groups literally in parallel. We all then came together in a workshop. We shared our learnings really quickly and literally the design community and team were off then making those iterations. They then came back and said, right, we've got some new pack proposals, can you come? We just want to screen these same approach, bang, bang, bang. 48 hour turnaround, then into the next stage. All right, we need to spend a little bit more time here. We now want to start thinking about some of the images and the graphics that are going on on there. But we now know what the right pack is, what the right name is. So we've reduced down. So instead of waiting and waiting, they've put a number of things in. And for us working together with creative agencies, it's the most powerful thing. Because when creative agencies work, the way that things are typically evaluated is that the extremes, the ones that they've got real fire in their belly for, often will get knocked down as being, no, no, it's too creative, no, no, our clients can't handle that. Well, actually, they're fantastic to get into the test because they'll either migrate to the top, they'll float to the bottom, or if they're good enough, then they'll still migrate to the top. So we encourage more diversity. And actually, for creatives, this suddenly gives them an outlet. And actually it also encourages the client to then start taking more risks as well. Because it's not expensive, it's quick, it's cheap, it's deeper, it's faster. There's no downside to all of this. And actually, we're just making lots of iterations. So in the end, we had four rounds of iterations in a short space of time, whether that be the name, whether it be the pack form, whether it be the pack graphics, whether it be the pack color. And ultimately we then came out with a winner that landed in the similar vein to what the qual was doing. So they had the qual insights, the messaging all kind of coming together that typically in my old world might have taken years. Condensed all the way down. What it was, it was fun. Do you know what? It was fun because basically the shackles were off. The agency were loving it because they're getting this quick, iterative feedback. Actually, if everyone's in the same place, that can be really, really powerful. I used to run multifunctional brainstorming, and when you get a marketer together with a packaging, a designer, you know, a finance, you know, all in the room together, all trying to create, and then you've got the toolkits around to be able to help evaluate these things quickly, you can make decisions quickly, you can actually develop and be innovative even quicker.
- [42:10]
Yeah, and like you said, it's a fun experience when everybody's part of it and you, you get that real great team mentality. I just had Dr. Dominic Packer on talking about the power of us and this ability to have everybody coming together for the same purpose and being part of that group. And when you're not, like you said, dragging this out over years and people are working on multiple projects and think, oh, that's just going to sit on a shelf forever, it loses some of that momentum and energy, I think.
- [42:43]
Spot on. It's about. I'm not saying you just launch something for the sake of it because you've got the consumers telling you whether or not you've got something, but, boy, it does create momentum. And if you've also got some naysayers in there, that's fine. It's not a problem. Because listen to what they have to say. But at the same token, the consumers will tell you. The consumers won't even necessarily tell you, but by the reactions, you can then tell the client, this is what the consumers are both telling us. This is how they feel about it and this is how they're reacting to it. And that's just incredibly powerful.
- [43:18]
I love it. Well, thank you so, so much for coming on, you know, because we've known each other for a while now. I could just talk to you all the time. So we could talk all day and just keep going. But we've reached our time and I want to be considerate of your schedule. So for everyone who is now just itching to find out more and have a conversation and learn from Cloud army, what is the best path for them to take?
- [43:43]
More than happy. If people want to reach out to me personally, which is keithloud army, they can visit the website and there's a form in there that you can fill in and we'll definitely get back to them. We've just recently done some work, a thing called nudge stock. So if people want to also look through there, they can see some of the work that we've done. But I think Infoloud army is another good place to go to. But I'd suggest that the website perfect and more than happy to deal with anybody who wants to chew the fat and, you know, put the world to rights, so to speak.
- [44:17]
I love it. And so everyone knows and maybe you've heard this if you've been listening to the show for a while. Sometimes guests say their email address aloud. I will not put it on the website for the show notes because I respect your inbox and I don't want you to get spam bots so those who are listening can hear it and they can go write it down and get a little edge. But we'll have the website. I feel like Infoloud army is potentially okay to put in there versus yours.
- [44:46]
I was going to say it's probably easier to spell than Keith because, yeah, let's use info at Cloud army and if that changes, I'll tell you afterwards and we can sort of.
- [44:58]
Sounds good. So we'll have those connections points in the show notes. And thank you so much again, Keith, for joining me. It was a lot of fun to talk to you.
- [45:05]
Thanks, Melina.
- [45:08]
Melina Palmer
So what got your brain buzzing as you learned about implicit bias testing from Keith today? For me, there were so many fascinating insights. I especially loved his explanation of how implicit association testing taps into those rapid, automatic judgments our brains make before we even have a chance to form a conscious opinion. That kind of deep System one level reaction is exactly what drives so much of our behavior, especially when it comes to ads, packaging and messaging. And yes, I've said System 1 a few times in the episode here because of the conversation, and know that that's what I typically refer to as the subconscious here on the show. And the fact that Cloud Army's platform can test for all of that quickly, early in the process, and without tipping the participant off to what's really being measured is incredibly powerful. Another key takeaway was how important it is to build space for iteration. Keith talked about how frustrating it is when big companies spend months developing a new idea, only to find out at the very end that it doesn't work and then move forward anyway because there's no time left to fix it. That's a problem so many businesses face, and one that rapid implicit testing can help solve. When you can test early and often, you not only improve your outcomes, but you actually empower your teams to be more creative because you're giving them real feedback from the people who matter most, your customers. This ties directly into my next conversation with Jake Teeny. In that episode, we're going to talk about how good people create bad ads and how understanding subconscious reactions can help you avoid those pitfalls. You definitely don't want to miss it, so if you aren't yet subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now is a great time to do so. All right, what about you? Have you ever been surprised by what people actually responded to versus what they said they liked? Have you used implicit bias testing at your work? We'd love to hear all about how it's worked for you or not. Are you interested in it? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy biz pretty much everywhere. And as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn, there are links in the show note to make it easy as well as links to my top related past episodes, books, ways to get in touch with me and Keith and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 508 and just like that, episode 508 with Dr. Keith Ewart of Cloud army is done. Join me next time for a brand new episode with Dr. Jake Teeny to discuss how bad ads get made and how to avoid making them yourself. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.
- [47:58]
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help business businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.