← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
515. Unlocking ADHD: Strategies for Success in Work and Life
00:54:28
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Skye Waterson, founder of Unconventional Organisation, to discuss the unique productivity challenges faced by individuals with ADHD. Skye shares her insights on the four key areas...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 515 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Sky Waterson, Founder of Unconventional Organization. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:20]
Sky Waterson
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:36]
Melina Palmer
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. When I talk about mindset work and applying behavioral science into your habits to be more productive, one of the most common questions I get is about how this all applies to those who are neurodiverse, especially those with adhd. I have had a previous guest, Siggy Hale, talk about ADHD within teams and how to optimize them by showcasing the value that each type of brain brings to the group. Today my guest, Sky Waterson and I are focusing more on that productivity factor. She is going to be sharing about the four main areas where ADHD brains are different from neurotypical, including their response to dopamine when it comes to goals, how they experience time and other fascinating insights. And and we're going to talk about tips for those who have ADHD so they can optimize their own work and life to be more productive, as well as how this comes into play when the leader of a team has ADHD and a little bit about optimizing the workplace with consideration to those differences. It's fascinating and I can't wait to share this conversation with you. A little bit about sky before we jump in. She is an ADHD strategist and founder of Unconventional Organization, a multi six figure business helping entrepreneurs turn ADHD into their greatest asset. When she was diagnosed with adhd during her PhD she realized that mainstream productivity advice didn't work for her, so she took matters into her own hands, researching, testing and perfecting strategies that truly help. Today she equips coaches, consultants, founders and executives with the same ADHD friendly systems which which I'm excited to have her share with you here on the show today. Last thing before we get into the conversation, want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with sky and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 515 now let's jump right in. Sky Waterson, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [02:46]
Sky Waterson
Thank you. It's great to be here.
- [02:48]
Melina Palmer
Oh, yes. I am so excited to be chatting with you today. I think it's going to be a great conversation. Definitely on a topic that I get questions about a lot. And there are, I feel like, less people working on this specific area than what we might think. And so really delighted that you had connected and that we were able to work this out. So for everyone that's saying, like, what is this area? What are we talking about? Like, for everybody who doesn't know you yet, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [03:18]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. So I am a former academic. I was diagnosed with ADHD during the first year of my doctorate. So I made it all the way to doctoral level with a lot of burnout and a lot of really excessive systems and a bunch of other bad coping mechanisms. And so when I found out I had adhd, it was a real turning point for me. I started researching, couldn't help it. That's what I do. And, you know, teaching, you know, what I was doing in schools and eventually founded the Unconventional organization, which, yeah, is what I now run today. And we actually help business owners and executives with adhd.
- [03:59]
Melina Palmer
Perfect. Well, and always love the like I had this. And as you're working through it, you're figuring out ways that you can be helping other people. So what, what did you get your Ph.D. in? You know, what were you researching at the time that you were, you know, in that.
- [04:16]
Sky Waterson
My biggest frustration is that I got my diagnosis at the beginning of my PhD and not before it, because what I was researching was nothing to do with what I'm doing now. I, I had studied, you know, spot the ADHD here. I studied psychology, sociology. I did, you know, developmental psychology, which did discuss ADHD and autism, but it was mostly in kids. And so when I got to postgraduate or PhD level, I was studying parents experiences of economic satisfaction in New Zealand. Something fun, but not related to the topic.
- [04:52]
Melina Palmer
Yes, but learning to research and dedicate and focus your time. It's interesting. There's a lot of the research when we think about optimism bias and some planning fallacy. So we talked a little bit about, leading into this conversation about my TEDx about, you know, there's nothing magical about Monday. These four kind of things that keep people stuck in their status quo, including optimism bias, planning fallacy, time discounting and bike shedding. But with the research that has to do with that optimism bias, it's talking about students who are doing their dissertations. And when you ask Them how long they thought it would take for them to get the work done. And I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but you know, they said it'd be, you know, 24 days or something. And then it's a. Like, in the best case scenario, how long do you think it'll take you? And they said, I bet I could do it in 14 or whatever. And then the worst, like, if everything goes wrong, how long will it be? And they said, you know, 30 or something. And then it actually took them an average of 55 days. Like, so everybody kind of gets stuck, I guess, in that way. And where we overestimate or underestimate how long it's going to take us overestimate our own skills. Skills. So would you say that the work you were doing, like, were you kind of self testing as you were going through your own, you know, PhD and kind of working on yourself and learning some of these things of how to apply even if the research you were doing wasn't connected?
- [06:23]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. So I would say, you know, for me, when I got the diagnosis, I had kind of a bit of a split at that point because my PhD was by scholarship. I was lucky enough to do well enough in my masters that I got a scholarship. Actually, if those of you want to know the story, I talk in some article about how I dropped out and went and worked in a bakery for a year because I was so burned out. So once I'd been through that and art school and a bunch of other things, I came back to do the PhD and I was like, okay, I'm going to figure out what it is. If there's something wrong. I thought it might be the story. Dyslexia. When I found out it was ADHD for me, it was really like I had. I had to figure this out. This was like. It just felt like almost like a calling, you know, I needed to understand what was going on. And so I immediately started researching it. I immediately ran a postgraduate group for people who have neurodiversities because I've been running groups and teaching, you know, for yonks at this point. And so it just felt supernatural and. And I ended up actually writing articles which had references in them, which I didn't realize at the time was kind of a big deal because that wasn't happening a lot, and posting them on like, Facebook groups of ADHD groups that I was a part of and like that kind of thing. And that's really where I got traction and attention that then led into what I'm doing today and it sort of culminated, you know, I used a lot of the systems that I developed on over the next few years to write my thesis and you know, do the research and testing. But I ended up in a position where I actually didn't finish my PhD and I went and studied the business full time. Because if you're in academia, those of you who've done a PhD will know there comes a point where you have to just give everything, everything you have to that, to that process. You have to focus and do one thing. And you know, the advice I got from my supervisors was there's always going to be another PhD, but you're not going to get this opportunity again. And so I went full in on the business and that's, that's how it turned out.
- [08:27]
Melina Palmer
Awesome. And I love, you know, being able to have understood what mattered to you at that point and what it was you were looking to do. And like you said, if you had been studying something that was tied to what you then became passionate about, it might have been different.
- [08:40]
Sky Waterson
Right? Yeah. But I, it was the scariest decision I've ever made. I was fully, fully on the academic train. That is what I had studied for since I was in high school. Basically I'd been going through this process and so to sort of throw myself into the world of business was very scary. But ultimately, you know, I run a multi six figure business now and I love it and I'm glad I made this decision.
- [09:06]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, I love that. So as we, you know, kind of dive into the insights and what you help people with and whatnot, I mentioned that I get questions about this a lot from people. So we found some synergies, like we're saying, in the advice I give and how it ties in with the work that you do.
- [09:26]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Melina Palmer
And you know, in this space of like do one thing because our brains aren't really good at multitasking just across the board, like we could all do better in that way. And then knowing though that there are, you know, some things that are different going on in our brains, of course, for, for those with ADHD or other diagnoses, but understanding what that is and helping people, I get people that ask all the time, like, how does this apply? So if I have ADHD diagnosed or not, or I'm, I'm, whatever I'm dealing with, if I'm neurodivergent, what's different for me?
- [10:01]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [10:01]
Melina Palmer
So what would you, what would you share for that?
- [10:04]
Sky Waterson
I think there are a number of Key differences, I would say dopamine differences in how we, you know, receive dopamine. And we can go into the deficit, dopamine transfer deficit. But, you know, there's also issues around time blindness, working memory, and then transition times, otherwise known as set switching. Those are kind of the key points. Ironically, you won't actually see them a lot in the dsm, except for one tiny byline, because the DSM really focuses on this idea of impulsivity, which is a factor that. But when people come to me, usually they're struggling with more of the executive functioning side.
- [10:41]
Melina Palmer
Mm. Well, I definitely want to go in depth on all four of those things. So let's, let's go. You started with a dopamine piece, so let's, let's jump in on that. And I thought this was so fascinating, so please share a little bit about that.
- [10:57]
Sky Waterson
So this is an interesting space and I will say, like, if anyone knows any, send me the research on this. If you find a paper, just send it to me because I love this stuff. I'm always trying to learn more. But, you know, there's a paper specifically, I think, most well written by Trippin Wickens in 2009, if you do want to find it, where they talk about this idea of a dopamine transfer deficit theory, what that essentially means is that it is theorized, based on what we're looking at in the brain, that when a neurodiverse person, somebody with adhd, starts a task, they don't get a little dopamine boost at the beginning in the same way as somebody who is neurotypical or doesn't have ADHD gets. So the way I like to describe it is if you're neurotypical and you sit down to start a task, your brain goes, hey, this is going to be great. You're going to get a reward later on for this. So let's just give you a big thumbs up now and say, whoa, good job. But if you're ADHD and you start the same task, your brain just looks at you and goes, this is so stupid. Like, this sucks. Why are we doing this? And so you're less motivated. It makes a lot of sense when you, when you explain it like that.
- [12:11]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, for sure. And so it's, it's so fascinating because we talk about that with goals and being able to see, you know, like, this is what's going to happen. And so we get the little bit of dopamine and there's one piece in the way of not just resting on the dopamine Laurel, you get at the beginning, you know, being one aspect of it, but, but knowing that that is a key to completing the task. Right. To help us to see that this is something worth, worth doing, that we get that bit of dopamine. And so what's your advice, you know, for someone who does have adhd, to help to overcome that so that they can, you know, focus on those important tasks and get them done?
- [12:51]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, well, my advice and, and, you know, I've tested this on hundreds of people at this point, including myself, is what I call the dopamine dialogue. So, you know, basically what I advise people to do is to imagine, you know, their brain has got like a big dial in it, one of those old school ones, and start giving yourself a reward for starting the task. A good reward. I like to, you know, put on some music. You know, that's kind of a later thing. I think I'll start by, like, grabbing a coffee, sitting down, watching Twitch, watching people play Stardew Valley, which is my favorite game, and kind of going through. And then, and then maybe listening to a podcast and then maybe listening to music. And so, you know, what I'm doing essentially is I'm giving myself a dopamine boost for sitting down at my desk to work, which is so foreign. And you think about it from a neurotypical perspective, if you're getting a dopamine boost for starting the task because you know you're going to get a reward at the end, the idea of then giving yourself a reward for starting the task as well feels inane. It doesn't make sense. But if you're neurodiverse, if you have adhd, this could be the thing that helps you actually do the thing. If you want the full I break it down step by step in a full article, you can always just email me or text me Brainy on Instagram at Unconventional organization, and I'm happy to send it to you. I love giving this to people, but, yeah, just really how to go down the steps of giving yourself a reward, which to a lot of people is just a foreign concept.
- [14:27]
Melina Palmer
Definitely. Well, and the aspect of the dial being like, in the order you were putting there. Right. So the, you know, streaming on Twitch, there's a lot more dopamine coming from that of the, like, action of it and, like, are they going to make it? And this is interesting. There's visual and all this stuff. And so if you. Then once you've had that for a little bit, you dial it down to just the podcast. Right. So the visual aspect is gone, but I'm, I'm. I'm coming off of that big kind of hit of dopamine to then get the next, like you were saying, is some music. So. And maybe it's not high energy or whatever, different type of music to help you. And I know, like in your article, too, you're saying kind of along those lines if you maybe make a couple notes about the thing you're trying to do. Right?
- [15:10]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. Working memory sport there.
- [15:13]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. So as you dial down the intensity of the dopamine that you're getting, you're factoring in and kind of leveling up the work that you're getting done to help accomplish the task and tie the, the benefit from the dopamine to the completion of the tasks, kind of as you're making some progress there.
- [15:35]
Sky Waterson
Exactly. And, and what that allows you to do is it allows you to get back to what we were talking about right at the beginning, which is the idea of doing one thing at a time, because we do want you at the end of the day to be sitting there with maybe a little bit of background music, because there's some research that indicates that actually helps us stay in focus. But, you know, something like that, but really just doing one thing, it's just how we get there. That's kind of the biggest difference. I want you to imagine if you're, you know, if you have ADHD or you think you might have adhd, it's just how you get there might be.
- [16:08]
Melina Palmer
Different from somebody else, definitely. And so I'm guessing there'll be, you know, I'm thinking for questions for the audience members might have here. So is there a set amount of time that you should target for how long you stay in each one or how quickly you're going to be, you know, ramping your way in? Is there a goal that you're trying to achieve and to be able to transition in, you know, a month from now, I can do this in five minutes versus an hour and a half that it takes me today. Like, what. What are some of the things about that?
- [16:38]
Sky Waterson
So this is really part of a full step into focus routine that I teach. This is kind of step one. And you know what I usually say, because you're right, I get this question all the time, is most of the time you should be able to do this in about 15 to 20 minutes. But if you're just starting out, think about how long you've been procrastinating a task in general at this point, because sometimes people will procrastinate for hours. And let's just imagine you could halve that time and let's go with that, you know, so, so sometimes people especially because it can feel a bit like driving a car. It's like the first time you do it, it's a little bit clunky. It doesn't feel supernatural once it becomes a part of your brain. And a lot of the times when people come to me and work with me, they say they. What they really love is it's not tips, it's a system that you can work sort of like a practice. Once it becomes part of your brain, you'll start doing it without even thinking about it. And that's when it starts to be. Become faster.
- [17:32]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. And that kind of, whether it's habit or ritual around it. Right. But your brain then can be anticipating the next thing. Right. And being excited about what it's going to get. And you can be as you. And you know your brain's going to get kind of bored and want to switch tasks anyway. And so you might as well say we're now switching to the podcast because that's like kind of feeding into to that aspect of it.
- [17:57]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. And trusting. Oh, it feels so good when your brain trusts yourself. It's such a good feeling because right now your brain probably doesn't trust you and sounds strange, but think about it, it's probably true.
- [18:10]
Melina Palmer
Right? Yeah. That's interesting. And so what about something like taking breaks then? Right. So we know we're going to get distracted. All humans. Right? You're going to get distracted. And so there are things where it's. Whether it's like Pomodoro tech techniques or being, you know, so it's maybe just for those who aren't as familiar. If it's say after 25 minutes you take a 5 minute break or after 50 minutes you take the 10 minute break and can do something. I talk about that kind of. Not yet. When I'm thinking about I want to go check Instagram and say, oh well, I get to do that in 15 minutes when I'm done with this. Right. But is there any sort of guidance as far as where something like that is actually going to be bad if you work in too many breaks when you're, when it takes you longer to kind of get, get your goals going.
- [19:01]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, I'm, I'm about to say, I'm like I'm going to be a little bit controversial here because. Okay, so. But I have research to back it up. So the Pomodoro method Is awesome. But it's not designed for ADHD or people with executive functioning deficits. It was designed by somebody in Italy who was trying to study. It actually also works really well for, for anybody in a study framework because you're always hyper focusing sort of for a whole day, often on one thing. But in the sort of day to day, you know, business kind of life, what we tend to see with this is that, you know, we struggle with transition times and set switching. So if you go 25 minutes of work, 5 minute break, 25 minutes of work, 5 minute Break, your brain will like what, what tends to happen is people will say the pomodoro really helps me start, but then I tend to turn it off once I've started. And that's usually an indication that you're using it in a, in a different way. So what I tend to recommend is that you stretch the pomodoro so we don't get rid of it. It does work, but we say, okay, I'm going to work for, you know, maybe 45 minutes with a 15 minute break. We just want to give yourself, you know, I tend to even say half an hour. Like it depends on how long you can work at a stretch. And again, stepping into focus control really help with this. Especially if you do the whole system and you write down the tasks so you're not distracted by the fact that you don't actually know what you're doing. But you know, if you can take a really nice long break after a good chunk of work and then do it again, that's going to be just a much more natural way to get in and out of focus.
- [20:37]
Melina Palmer
With adhd, definitely. And I, I think in that way too. Is it a little bit of. I, I don't like when you have that some. If people use a kitchen timer or something and then it's gonna go off and be like, hey, like your time is up. Like you don't want to be taken out of flow if you were in flow and introduce the distraction. Right. So you wanna have something that will stop you if you're gonna go way too long. But then, but knowing when it's an alarm that has a sound or does something and when it's just, this is the method to get me started and have some willpower to know that if I need a break in 10 minutes, I can have one, but if I don't and I can like work through it, it's good. Which feels like a good kind of natural transition into time blindness.
- [21:26]
Sky Waterson
Yes. Yeah. And it's Funny with, you know, we talk about time as people are often really surprised to know that I have like two timers that go off in the daytime and that's about it. Two, maybe three. I have like a. This is the absolute, like, if you've slept in, this is the time you have to wake up. Like that one that's in my office. And then I have the end of the day, you should probably leave your computer. And then I have like, you should go to bed. Like, you need to start getting like, those are the only ones. Like, everything else I do is using this really nice system of, you know, it doesn't have to be pet you all day. Because to your point, we do struggle with time blindness. We see a lot of research into this. And I was so surprised by this. This is one of the things that caught me totally by surprise when I got diagnosed because you don't realize that with people who don't have ADHD or, you know, don't have this executive functioning struggle, their brains are immense, like, sort of. They have a sense of like, oh, it's been about 10 minutes, which is wild to me. Like, I do not have that at all. And so, you know, they've done tests on this. They've seen like, press a button when it's 10, 10 minutes. And if you're ADHD, people go like, maybe now, you know, like, I don't know, usually dependent on how busy they are or whatever. So it does have a, have a plus side. It means that you can get into hyper focus, which can be good if you know how to use it. So it does have that plus side. But. But yeah, very, very wild, very different way of working.
- [22:58]
Melina Palmer
Right. And so that, like I said, so neurotypical we can have a pretty good idea of. I bet it's been about a half an hour. Like it's probably time to go do the next thing. And I can check the clock. Yeah, but yeah, having that capacity. But also like to know, like we're saying this, the flip side of where there's a positive of, you know, if you get into that hyper focus and you can be working for a very long time and it doesn't feel any different maybe than, you know, when you're dedicating 15 minutes or something. And so there's value as we think about how we can like lean into the benefits of any of our brains. Right. And how they're set up to, to work with that. Whether it's understanding your team members better, understanding yourself better, all of that is, is really great. What advice then is there? You know, as far as. If we take the time blindness as a key thing for someone. So if somebody is realizing, oh, my gosh, yes, me, I don't. I don't have that. What do. What do I do?
- [24:06]
Sky Waterson
I've just realized on this podcast, the biggest piece of advice I can give to you is to externalize time. So this is the biggest thing. So our brain doesn't have an internal time clock as much as it should, and so we need to find ways to externalize. Externalize time. So it's not just, I have an alarm on my phone. Because the truth is, time ceases to exist, then an alarm goes off, and if you have too many of them, you don't even remember which one it was, and you cancel them. And so this is why I'm not a huge alarm person. What I recommend instead is thinking about a combination of different ways to see time. So put clocks around your house. You can make them look cool, put them up everywhere. Have a watch, you know, or hang it in different places to. If you have sensory issues. And then have one of those visual timers where if you turn it on, it has, you know, it has, like, it shows you in red how much time is left. And then also just. Just start using little, Little natural timers. So, you know, if you put something in the microwave, you know, it's going to be about this much time. If you boil a cup of tea, you know it's going to be about this much time. If you brush your teeth, you know, there's a little buzzer that goes off after a couple of minutes, so you can do some movement while you're brushing your teeth. Like, things like that just bring time into your world a little bit more.
- [25:26]
Melina Palmer
Hmm. And so I would assume kind of with this, where it's. It's not, though, that you can train your brain to just like. And now I know how long? 15 minutes?
- [25:41]
Sky Waterson
Unfortunately not. Yeah. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. I'd be somewhere very expensive on a beach somewhere.
- [25:49]
Melina Palmer
And so. So I think knowing, though, that the goal isn't to fix that, right. In the way of, like, I'm going to train my brain to do this now. Like, now that I know that that's not something that you can change. And so I think also, just even not fully survivorship bias here, but this sort of so much advice that's out in the world is to the point you're making, like, written by Neurotypical, that's explaining, like, how you can get better at this Thing. But if they don't understand or have the type of brain that doesn't have that dopamine piece that is having this issue with time blindness, it just isn't going to you, you can't be that same way. Right. You can't read the article and say, well, I'm gonna just like they say I should do this thing and it'll be easy and eventually I will like learn this. But if your brain's not wired for that, that's important to know. So you can just kind of remove the burden of feeling like there's something wrong in why you can't figure this thing out. To know that like your brain just does this differently. And so these are some things that you can do externally to overcome that or whatnot.
- [27:00]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think, you know, there is research into brain training because it is quite popular and it comes up a lot. And you know, what the research seems to indicate is that if you trained yourself because you know this is from, often comes from athleticism to do something very specific a lot, you could probably train yourself to be better at doing that very specific thing. But it's not necessarily going to lead to a global shift in how your brain works. And so this is often what people don't get when we talk about brain training.
- [27:32]
Melina Palmer
Right. So the transference of the skill. Right. So if I know that it takes me just when you, because you said athleticism and I was thinking about this from this sort of fitness perspective, but like I'm going to do however many push ups and I know that that takes me five minutes. And so I know that however many, you know, 25 push ups takes this long.
- [27:52]
Sky Waterson
Like then I, yeah, you could definitely figure that out. But you're pretty much making yourself a natural timer at that point.
- [27:58]
Melina Palmer
So. And it's based on like, I, but I'm not. But you do have to, right. When I'm going and doing something else, it's not like I now know exactly how long, you know, five minutes is because I'm mentally doing push ups.
- [28:13]
Sky Waterson
Although I would love to see Molina just drop and give 20 because she's like, I need to know how long this queue is going to last.
- [28:19]
Melina Palmer
Five minutes. Five minutes. Making it happen. I, I, yeah, I know that's where somebody's potentially going like five minutes to do 25 pushups. What's wrong with you? But hey, you know, progress, not perfection.
- [28:34]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, I think it's amazing. I'm like, yeah, sure, okay, it could.
- [28:38]
Melina Palmer
Take me an hour. I don't Know how long it's going to take. We've. My husband and I have been doing CrossFit and I'm training to do. I want to do a single pull up, right? Like that is. That is my goal in life at this point.
- [28:49]
Sky Waterson
It's a good goal. I like that.
- [28:51]
Melina Palmer
I've got a ways to go, but we're making progress, so. All right. So we talked about two of the four items within this kind of process that you found. Can you share the next one?
- [29:03]
Sky Waterson
Yes. The next one is working memory, which is. Which is a big one. I think a lot of people don't understand how this works as well. I'm gonna. I could say that a lot, but it's just crazy when you find out how your brain works. So.
- [29:14]
Melina Palmer
Love it.
- [29:15]
Sky Waterson
You know, when we're talking about working memory, what it essentially means is, the way I like to describe it is somebody says, okay, I need to replace a rug in my house. Seems pretty simple. If you're neurotypical, you go on, whatever. You're gonna go on ebay, you buy a new, you buy it used. Whatever you do, let's say you buy it used, you go on ebay, you go on, you know, whatever your version is in different countries, and you buy a rug, and then you get it and you deliver it. If you're adhd, that process that seems so simple can be paralyzing because when you actually break down what the steps are to do it, we're talking you have to measure the space you have right now, which means you have to find a measuring tape, just for starters. You might have to even buy a measuring tape. Then you have to figure out how much space you have, how big is your current rug. Then you have to go and find something that's the same color, not get distracted, same. You see, not even the same color, but like the same size. Maybe the same color. Whatever it does that you want, maybe it needs to be, you know, not have a hole in it or whatever. Then you have to get rid of the rug you already have. It can't sit in the corner of your room for a year. And I'm listening those of you, you can't put it in a different room. You have to get rid of it. Okay, so then we have to figure out how to dispose of a rug. What does that look like? Do we get a car? How does that work then? Say you buy the rug, you have to get it delivered, or you have to go pick it up, which is complicated. You have to talk to people, you have to Negotiate. It could take multiple days of texting, which could really take your whole time up. Then you have to bring it in, unroll it, put it back down. So that's what it actually takes to buy a rug. And that's what I mean by working memory struggles. If you struggle to hold all of that information in your brain and use it in the same way as we could talk about spatial memory. Understand? Okay, well, this and this, and then I would do this first and then this. You can end up very paralyzed when you're struggling with working memory struggles.
- [31:11]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. And so all the different steps and kind of where they go together and keeping them moving along in the right place. So what's the advice kind of for people in this space? You know, if you're struggling with that working memory, what's the thing to do to overcome that?
- [31:31]
Sky Waterson
So this is a system that I use called the. It's called the focus filter. So it helps you kind of go from overwhelmed to focus based on your tasks. Usually the biggest thing that I would say to you is you're going to need to have a hyperlink or a double click version of whatever that task is that has the subtasks. You can do it in a bullet journal. You just have to write down which page you put it on. You can do it in a Google Drive or a Notion Doc. You just have to have a link that clicks to a separate page. But. But you need to have something where you can double click and you can see the broader version of the task. So if you own one of those really tiny little calendars that you can carry around that just says doctor's appointment and rug, it's not going to help you break through your working memory deficit.
- [32:20]
Melina Palmer
And so it's a physical aspect of I can easily. So if it says rug and I click that and it'll say like, it'll have my list of stuff steps of like, step one, do this, step two, do this, and I can go back and see. All right, I'm on step five. And the next thing I'm supposed to do is to, you know, rent a car to.
- [32:40]
Sky Waterson
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. The principle of that system that I explain is it has to be like a tree. Like, the different sections are all the branches of the tree. So if you click on something, it's like, okay, this is everything I have to do for it. These are all the steps. But eventually the tree has to like, come in and you've got the big list of like rug, doctor's appointment, this, this, and you're kind of all connecting it again, because, again, working memory. If you say, oh, no worries, sky, let me just find a random piece of paper and write a list of tasks for getting a rug on there. Then, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna come back to it and you're gonna be like, where's that list? I have no idea. So you need to have a central space where you store everything. And it's, It's. It takes a little bit of time to set it up, but once you get going. And this is the thing I love people to remind people, once you get going on these systems, you've just supported your biggest struggles. So I'm not a huge ADHD is the superpower fan. I think ADHD has strengths and weaknesses. Executive functioning like this has strengths and weaknesses. The strengths are we're amazing at problem solving, creative thinking, but only if we work on the weaknesses. If we're running around trying to figure out how to buy a rug, we don't really have time and energy for those things. I mean, maybe we'll pull a rabbit out of a hat and figure out how to get someone who'll do the whole thing, you know, remove it, bring it back all at once. But maybe we'll start a business to do that. You know, you can see how the mind works with adhd.
- [34:02]
Melina Palmer
Yes. But I mean, the rabbit out of the hat, that's where task rabbit, I'm sure, is one of those great. Like, take care of this.
- [34:08]
Sky Waterson
We don't have it in New Zealand, so I'm. I'm endlessly jealous. And I always tell my clients, like to use something like that they have it.
- [34:15]
Melina Palmer
Right. And any. When you can potentially.
- [34:18]
Sky Waterson
Then.
- [34:18]
Melina Palmer
So, like, knowing when it's better to outsource something versus having to hold it in your own space feels like it would be really valuable in that way as well. Right. So if it's reasonably affordable enough to have this taken care of. Where if, you know, you would get distracted actually going grocery shopping and buying the wrong things, you know, if you had a list of stuff that you were wanting to get, if you were able to set up in an app or some sort of, like, recurring subscription that, like, your food just shows up every week, so. So that you don't have to even think about that.
- [34:51]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. The best person to do a task is not you. That is, that is the person we want to do most tasks if we can help it.
- [34:57]
Melina Palmer
I mean, in general, I'm on board. I like to outsource all those sorts of things, so. Awesome. So I Was trying to remember when you were talking. I can't remember if this thing that has come to mind for me is something that you said in the pre. Conversation we had a couple of weeks ago ago or if it was something else I had read or whatnot outside of this. But so something to do with the. If we. If you make a note about something like if it was. And like, rug isn't going to be the right word here as I'm trying to remember what it was. But essentially, if you make the note about a thing, you don't necessarily remember why you were making the note about the thing. Like all the different aspects of the context of what it was. And so I'm remembering now and I think it was a conversation I was having with my husband Aaron about this, like after we were having our conversation and something he might have read. Right. But like that it had to do with. And the thing in my brain, which is so weird. But if it's like, if you write raisins.
- [35:58]
Sky Waterson
Yep.
- [35:59]
Melina Palmer
On it and then it's saying. And. And so maybe it's because he had watched some of your content too and it came from you, but it was like raisins specifically. And then you don't know if the note was to go buy raisins or like that you want to go look for your California raisins action figure little like doll thing you had when you were a kid. And so like the context doesn't tie to the note.
- [36:21]
Sky Waterson
Or do we grow something that makes raisins? Do we want to start a reason? Like what do we like, it could be anything. Yeah. So did that.
- [36:29]
Melina Palmer
Did that in some way come from some of your content? And is it tied in here or principle?
- [36:34]
Sky Waterson
The principle, definitely. I don't know what a raisin action figure is. So that one, I didn't. It didn't come for me. But. But yeah, it is. It is very much like the detail. When we're talking about working memory, we're talking about detail. Problem is, can't get overwhelmed by detail. So you can't write a list that contains all the. The small stuff. So if you wrote, you know, get raisin on a list, then I would expect to see a double click option or some way to then go in and say, okay, what this is like, you know, this is an action figure. It's very hard to find. You're gonna have to do abc, you know, things like that.
- [37:12]
Melina Palmer
I know. I feel like action figure was maybe a bit much, but it's like, I know the California raisins were like these characters that helped to sell raisins in the like, 80s or something around here. So they're like more dancing raisins. So it's maybe not an action figure as much as some sort of doll or something. Who knows?
- [37:33]
Sky Waterson
But it's perfectly reasonable that it's written on a list, like an ADHD list. My lists. I have so many things on the list that I actually often recommend that people have a section. It gets. It gets deep when we, when we talk about this in our program. But essentially you think about it as like a tree and there's a trellis that you like, link to the tree called the idea trellis. And that's where the idea of like, do I want a raisin figurine? Like, like that kind of stuff goes in there because otherwise it's going to like choke the tree because there's going to be so many ideas in there. So we try and move that to a different section.
- [38:11]
Melina Palmer
Yes, that's. And that's, I think, in similar way of where I talk about the not yet folders and things.
- [38:16]
Sky Waterson
Right.
- [38:17]
Melina Palmer
So being able to. Because again, we can all. We all get distracted. Our brains are wired for that no matter what. Right. But so to know that, like, oh, I saw this article and like, that's interesting. I should go read about that. And like, maybe I should read about it, but not right now. Maybe that's like something to do a week from now when I'm working on and gonna need that. And so having a place that's set up where, you know, you can go save it. And so, like, I've got, you know, whether it's a trello board or a folder in my email inbox that I can just say when it's time, I know where they are.
- [38:54]
Sky Waterson
It'll come back to me in the right moment.
- [38:56]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. And I can go read it again and then, you know, deal with it at that point. So perfect. Okay, well, that was a really weird tangent and I feel like I'm gonna end up having. I always love when listeners will reach out and say, like, oh my gosh, I was absolutely laughing at your ridiculousness as you were talking about California raisins. So please, you know, world, send me a note to make fun of me.
- [39:18]
Sky Waterson
Send me a raisin.
- [39:19]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, hey, you know, raisins are great. I'm team raisin. That actually made me think of the. So I get distracted here. But this oatmeal raisin cookies are way better than oatmeal and chocolate chip. I don't know why anybody would have an oatmeal and chocolate chip cookie.
- [39:36]
Sky Waterson
But we have something in New Zealand called Anzac cookies. I don't know if you guys have them, but they're like a type of oatmeal cookie that. Yeah. Anyway, look it up, you'll probably be like, what is that? And those are the two things you guys don't have. Chocolate fish, which are. Yeah, they're like, like chocolate shaped candy with chocolate on the outside.
- [39:56]
Melina Palmer
Anyway, love it. Hey, you know. So well, now that we've had many a good tangent along the way, let's go to our fourth item that you like to talk about. So we had the dopamine dial transition and things there. We talked about the time blindness, we talked about that working memory. What's our fourth?
- [40:19]
Sky Waterson
The fourth aspect is transition times and set switching and we've kind of touched on this a little bit already in terms of our discussion of the pomodoro. But essentially set switching is just the concept that you need to give yourself a moment. One of the things that we find in research with ADHD is something called the bleed effect. And what that means, it's not as dramatic as it sounds. It just means that when you switch between tasks, you'll have a little bit of a bleed between the tasks. You're not going to be able to just go, you know, I always like to use this example of like, if you have a meeting and then between meeting one and meeting two, you have an hour and you're like, right in that hour I'm going to get work done. And then you don't. And you're like, what happened? It's because you struggle with transition time. So your brain just goes, okay, I have 15 minutes to defrag from that meeting. And then I have like, I need to take a break and get a coffee and da, da, da. Then I have 15 minutes to get prepped for the next meeting. So I really only have 15 minutes to work on this entire project. So I really only had time to like open it and. And in the end I did something else. So, you know, this is kind of one of the reasons why I recommend changing it. And there's actually a really amazing system called Manager vs Maker Time, which was created not for neurodiversity specifically, but it's a very similar concept, this idea of, you know, try and give yourself maker time, try and give yourself manager time, try and chunk similar types of tasks together so that you can reduce your transition time between separate tasks.
- [41:51]
Melina Palmer
So in that way, if you have a bunch of Meetings, say if you have team members and you're doing one on ones or something to squish them in together and to say like I do this call and then the next call there it's this multiple calls. But they're all doing the same type of function and so you can kind of run through those and then you know, you have a transition before you do, you know, more creative type thinking that you get to do in the afternoon or however it makes sense.
- [42:20]
Sky Waterson
Exactly. And, and we go into it in the program, you know about energy and when you should do things based on your energy and obviously you know how many back to back meetings you have before you need a break. But essentially, yeah, it's about combining similar tasks together in order to actually literally get more time in your week. Once you start doing this, people get hours and hours and hours back and they're always really surprised.
- [42:44]
Melina Palmer
Awesome, I love that. So it feels like a good transition then as we think about ourselves in business. And like you said, you work with people in, you know, executive roles. So when you're the, the manager and whatnot, like how, what are the tips that you give to people just as like a place to start, something to be thinking about. We've of course been covering them along the way. But if you think about this now in that work setting, whether it's for you as a manager, if you're managing someone that is neurodiverse or someone who's working, just whatever the top level advice, what comes to mind for you? What would you want to share with the audience?
- [43:21]
Sky Waterson
Number one, put clocks in your meeting rooms. Don't expect like if you're mad that somebody takes too long and you don't have a clock that they can see when they stand up to give a presentation, that's on you guys. Come on, let's put some clocks up. And then that's a bit of a funny one. But like, and then on a more serious note, you know, I think it's just about understanding how much flexibility is available in the, in the business and then what people are going to need because usually what you find is the most helpful. And you know, there's a reason that people who run businesses are often the ones who need the most flexibility themselves. They're like, I have to work from all these different places because often they can be neurodiverse. Like I said, most people I work with are the boss or an executive and they have adhd. So understanding, okay. It's not to say that the person isn't going to work because everyone's going to get a great job done. That's exactly what we're doing. But they might want to put headphones on. They might want to go to a coffee shop to get like particular deep work done. If you have an open plan office and it doesn't really lend itself to deep work, they might want to start a bit later or start a bit earlier. Maybe they like the bustle, maybe they like the quiet. You know, so just being aware that when people ask for these different commendations, usually what they're doing if they're, you know, tied to the goal that you as a business have is that they are attempting to figure out how to match the optimal stimulation for their brain to get work done.
- [44:49]
Melina Palmer
And with that in mind, do you have any, you know, tips for people if they are needing to go have this conversation with, you know, manager, HR boss, teams like what, what, what are the tips for that?
- [45:04]
Sky Waterson
100. I get asked this question all of the time. So the tip that I have for everybody who's doing this is to understand what is the goal that this organization wants from you. Specifically make sure you know what that is and then come in with the energy of I want to reach this goal and I know that this shift is going to help me reach this goal faster, more effectively, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing. And so then people are coming with a better understanding. If you just say I have this thing and it means that I need to do this, that doesn't really, you know, and it obviously it's hard. We want people to help and sometimes they just genuinely do care. But the easiest way to get people to come on board with you, and this is both if you're a boss who's thinking about the goals of their, you know, employees or contractors, and an employee contractor thinking about the goals of their boss is to connect it to the vision that they have.
- [46:05]
Melina Palmer
Definitely. This is why I use the same framework for pricing and sales as I do for change management. Right. Because you want to understand what someone values in the way that you present the information to them and to know that there are many things that are all true at the same time. And you can focus on something that is going to be important to that person in that moment to help move things along, even if it's not the most important thing to you as to why you are asking.
- [46:31]
Sky Waterson
Right.
- [46:31]
Melina Palmer
But being thoughtful about that can help you get more buy in when you are looking to get those accommodations. And I think, you know, a big lesson just for everybody, whether you're the Boss, whether you're a team member or like you said, a vendor partner or anybody else, is to know that no matter what your brain's got going on, not everyone is exactly like you. And so the thing that works for you isn't going to be necessary or work for everyone, whether that is that you as the boss have ADHD or members of the team or anything else. And so just to know that there's kind of this like openness to understanding what's going to help someone and as long as it's not negatively impacting other people, then you know, there's, you know, value in trying to find a way to make it, make it work 100% perfect. So the last thing I think so we talked about understanding your own self, you know, if we've got this going on for us, we talked about if you are the boss and going in and asking for your own commendations if you need them. I think the last piece that people might be curious about has to do with if you're, if this is sort of a managing up. So if your boss, oh yeah, has adhd, whether they like know or don't like, what are the tips you have for the employee of an ADHD manager?
- [48:05]
Sky Waterson
So similar thing applies, talking about the idea of understanding what their goals are and aligning it with you. So if you ask for things, you know, sometimes you're asking for things for them, so sometimes you're saying, hey, could we get a. If you come with a brand new idea that's different from all the ideas that we had before, there's a seven day Runway on that shift, you know, like, could we have. It's just I want to make sure that I'm not, I'm being efficient with my time and I'm helping you reach this goal, which is my goal and this is going to help. So again it, you're going to have to ask questions. I think understanding the struggles that people have as well. So thinking, okay, I can't probably ask this person about something and expect them to remember it if they didn't write it down. I have an EA who I love. Amazing, amazing. And so often in a meeting I'll be like, can you put this on my list? You know what I mean? She's the one putting it on my list. Sometimes I'll look at my list and I'll be like, oh yes, that thing. Or if it needs to get urgent, can you put it in my calendar? These are kinds of things that often happen. And so these little shifts are going to be so understanding working memory struggles, time blindness struggles. You know, dopamine shifts and then asking for what you want but connecting it to their vision.
- [49:26]
Melina Palmer
I love it. Wonderful tips and advice. And of course I'm sure that there are so many people now that are so excited to learn more, to follow you, to connect. What's their best path to do so.
- [49:38]
Sky Waterson
So you can find me@unconventionalorganization.com that's my website. There you can find access to articles, you can find this amazing go from overwhelmed to focused dashboard that you can download that will help you just do everything you need to. We love to give it away for free. I don't want anyone to feel overwhelmed when they're neurodiverse. And we also have the podcast. So our podcast is called the ADHD Skills Lab. We go deep on the research, fully nerdy, and we interview wonderful people about their own experiences and how they've overcome their ADHD and worked with it in different ways. So it's a good time.
- [50:17]
Melina Palmer
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for that. We'll of course have links in the show notes for everyone. And just thank you so much again, sky, for joining me today. It's been delightful to chat with you.
- [50:25]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, it's been great. Thank you so much.
- [50:29]
Melina Palmer
Thank you again to Sky Watterson for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love knowing these four concrete areas where ADHD brains are different from neurotypical brains and that they go beyond just being distracted easily, which is what I think people tend to use as their only classification for ADD or adhd. And since we all get distracted, I think that makes it easy for people to write it off and feel like others should just try harder or something. But there's so much more to it than that. It's so helpful to understand these tangible differences of what's going on in the brain with proven tips that someone can apply for themselves and others to be more effective. Knowing that there isn't a dopamine hit when starting that task is really important, or understanding about time blindness or how working memory is different for someone with adhd, or how to approach transition times and set switching if you aren't accounting for that bleed effect and stacking the workload of the day accordingly for yourself or others, it could lead to a much less effective day than if you do know about it and plan properly. Again, what I really love about these tips and insights is that they can be super simple to accommodate and for the most part they shouldn't have a negative impact on anyone else, and likely they can be positive for most people that there's some benefit in them, especially you know that bleeding time effect and the way you stack your days. So playing off of Sky's comment about adding clocks on the walls in your meeting rooms that shouldn't have a negative impact on anybody else, and knowing that time blindness is real for those with adhd. If you have a team member who you know has ADHD and you've been struggling with meetings staying on time, what cues can you collectively put into place to help everyone stay on track and know that they aren't trying to do anything to derail the group but in understanding this is a natural tendency for them and finding ways for the whole group to have permission to be supportive and not feel like it would be rude to interrupt or whatnot is really key. Communication is important all around, whether you're asking for an accommodation for your employer or wanting to let your team know how to best work together or anything else and understanding the science behind our brains is a great foundation to make that communication possible. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Skye today. I know I did, and I told her after we're done that I think this has the potential to be one of our most popular episodes because I know how often people ask and think about this. So I love that we were able to make it really applicable in all sorts of ways. With that in mind, I would love to hear what resonated most for you. What stood out for you when listening to the episode? Is there anything you're going to apply right away? Did you have a revelation about yourself or someone you've worked with? We would love to hear about it, so please come share with us on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with sky and myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 515 and thank you again to Sky Waterson for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and and remember to be thoughtful.
- [54:11]
Sky Waterson
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast, Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.