← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
520. Designing for Behavior Change
00:47:52
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Amy Bucher, author of Engaged: Designing for Behavior Change. Together, they explore the intersection of behavioral science and design thinking, discussing how to create solutions...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 520 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, we're talking about Designing for behavior change with Dr. Amy Buker. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:18]
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:34]
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Have you ever looked at a product or campaign and thought, who's this even for? Or wondered how some products solve a real problem while others just feel like fluff? Today's conversation dives into how behavioral science and design thinking can work together to build solutions that truly matter and avoid wasteful, ineffective noise. This refreshed episode, which originally aired in August 2021, is a replay of my conversation with Dr. Amy Bucher, author of Engaged Designing for Behavior Change. Amy's work has spanned healthcare, wellness, and consumer products, including her time at Johnson and Johnson, where she helped teams apply behavioral science to promote healthier habits in ways that truly worked for the people they were designed to help. I chose to bring this episode back now because it sets the stage for my conversation with Diane Osgood coming up in episode 521. Diane is a longtime leader in sustainability, ethics and impact. And in that conversation we talk about how companies can position themselves to be boycotted instead of boycotted. Love that framing. And if you aren't familiar with this idea yet, you're gonna love it too. I'm sure. At its core, you want to be a brand people seek out because of how well you serve them and the planet. And to do that, you have to start by understanding what people need and how they behave. And that's exactly what Amy and I talk about here today with tips to help you design for behavior change really quickly. Before we get into the episode, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com520. Now let's talk about how to design for real behavior change. Dr. Amy Buker, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [02:34]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to talking to you.
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Diane Osgood
Yay. Me too. As we were saying in kind of our pre call call pre interview discussion, I guess that we've been connected on LinkedIn for a while. You've been somebody on my list for quite some time to reach out to. So I'm glad that we were able to find a time. But let's start with you telling everybody who's listening about you and your work and how you got into behavioral design. Yeah.
- [03:04]
Dr. Amy Bucher
So I am currently at Leirio as vice president of behavioral design. This is a new role for me. I think this is my fifth week. Prior to that I was the vice president of behavior change design at MadPow, which is a consultancy. So I've moved from the consultant role back to an in house role, which I feel like is kind of my roots. My first real behavioral design job was for a startup called Health Media that was associated with the University of Michigan. Professor Vic Strecker from the School of Public Health there had done a lot of research on tailoring and creating really tailored interventions to change health behavior and was able to spin it out into a company. So I joined that team, really learned a lot about digital and technology and then we were acquired by Johnson and Johnson. And what was really cool about that is it let me dip my toes into the consulting world through an in house role because I was working inside Johnson Johnson, which is a huge multinational company with about 250 sub companies within it. And as a behavior scientist I was able to go and work with all different brands, all different companies, really get the best of both worlds. So I sort of, you know, product consulting, consulting product. So back home it feels like. But even prior to all that, I have my PhD in psychology and I think like a lot of people in my generation of behavior scientists, I wasn't totally sure what to do with my qualifications. The path that was laid out in front of me was really, if you're getting a PhD, you're going to become an academic, you'll be a professor at a research university and do what your mentors have done. And I realized really early that that was not the path I wanted to take. For a variety of reasons kind of stumbled into the job roles that I had. But I feel really fortunate because I love behavioral design. I really think it's a wonderful application of the skills that you learn in academic training. And now that I've been doing it for over 15 years, I'm seeing this rising generation of new behavioral designers that I am just so excited to have as part of my professional community, you know, people that I can work with and, you know, sometimes mentor, sometimes learn from. But it's just been this sort of wonderful evolution now that I look back over all of these choices in my career that that didn't always feel as logical as they turned out to be.
- [05:15]
Diane Osgood
Yeah, it's a common theme I found amongst people in the behavioral sciences of. Because it wasn't something that we were able to as children be like, someday I'm going to grow up and become a behavioral economist. Because it wasn't a thing that anybody knew and there weren't classes for or anything that you could have that be the plan. And so people that go through all these random routes to get here, I love just that combined brain space that we're able to have where we have people with engineering degrees, like Katie Milkman, psychology, philosophy, and just all kind of coming together to be able to create.
- [05:58]
Dr. Amy Bucher
A really cool field.
- [06:00]
Diane Osgood
So you mentioned. So you ended up working with, you know, Johnson and Johnson through a couple things. But. So was healthcare something that was really interesting to you or, you know, that type of like consumer product, something that you, when you went into industry and kind of started or in your PhD program that you thought was something you were focused on or it just sort of happened that way.
- [06:22]
Dr. Amy Bucher
It just kind of happened that way. But again, looking back, I think the seeds for it were planted pretty early. I've always actually, it's funny, I think a lot of women there was that SNL skit about, you know, I sit down and I watch my murder show. Yeah. Similarly, I also have always enjoyed reading sort of murder mystery type things, real life forensics, like, things that had that medical angle to them and like, you know, how do I solve this medical mystery? So that's long been a preferred type of reading material for me. I briefly, like, very briefly considered becoming a physician. But the premedical requirements, I kind of looked at them and like, oh, no, I'm not doing that. And sometimes I regret that because I think I would have been a good doctor. I, you know, my stomach doesn't turn when I see blood. I can kind of get in there and appreciate a situation for the problem it is and help to solve it. My first job out of grad school, which was really not a behavioral design job, was in health care. That was by accident. I was just actually, I bought a new computer and I was transferring files and looking back and I had all of my cover letters from my first foray into the job market and there were like 50 or 60 of them. I looked back and I just, oh, girl, you were trying so hard. Some of the things I said in those letters, I'm glad that nobody took that seriously, but ended up in a healthcare focused agency. I was doing research for them. So I was, you know, running focus groups and doing surveys and doing sort of market scans, that kind of thing. Really didn't like the job that much. It wasn't exercising my psychology background the way I wanted it to, but I realized in that job that I really liked working in the healthcare space, that there were a lot of challenges to work on that were relevant to behavior science. I just find it interesting, honestly, as part of it. So I guess getting back to that whole murder mystery thing, like there's an elements of it that I just find appealing on kind of an intellectual level. And then I was lucky to find Health Media as my next job. The company that J and J acquired because that was a healthcare. Well, this name is Health Media. You can probably guess it was a health focused company. But that's where I really started to dive deep into healthcare as a behavioral focus.
- [08:28]
Diane Osgood
Awesome. And so if you were to, I mean, let's just talk a little bit about the behavioral design. I know for some people, if it's maybe a term that you're not as familiar with, you know, knowing it's kind of a newer space, there are probably a lot of people that aren't as familiar with it. When you talk about design, I know people then probably say, well, is this just like design thinking? Is it graphic design? Where what's the crossover like? How do you explain behavioral design? And I guess that sort of work that you do and why it's important.
- [09:02]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah, so it depends on the audience how I describe it. I have a lot of different metaphors and euphemisms that I use that I find work depending on who I'm talking to. I think in its essence it's really applying the scientific method to the process of design. And I consider it to be extremely compatible with human centered design. Because human centered design is really about understanding the experience of the person at the center of whatever it is you're designing for. And similarly, behavioral design really requires us to understand the experience of the person whose behavior we're hoping to influence. So a lot of the methods and tools are really compatible with each other. The behavioral design process is very front loaded. So there's a lot of. Actually I've been saying this a lot recently. It's really very much a measure twice cut once type of discipline. We want to really do a lot of research up front to understand the problem space, to understand the work that's been done before so that we can build on it, not Repeat mistakes of the past and, you know, then from there begin to solution, testing those solutions, implementing them, and putting them out in the world. And I think I've already mentioned measuring and testing a couple times, but really that measurement is a constant in the behavioral design process. We really want to be at every step of the way gathering data that lets us know if we're on the right track or not so that we can adjust and optimize our results and of course, in the end, know what our results are. Yes.
- [10:24]
Diane Osgood
I have an episode about the importance of understanding the problem. And the biggest mistake everybody makes is not spending enough time upfront. And so I always get very excited whenever anybody says the same thing that.
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Dr. Amy Bucher
Yes.
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Diane Osgood
Whether you're looking specifically at behavioral science or behavioral economics or just any project, everyone please spend more time thinking about the problem you're trying to solve.
- [10:49]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Absolutely, yes. Cosine.
- [10:52]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. Amy and Melina, say yes, do this. That's good. Do you have an example? This could be a favorite case study from Mad Pow or anywhere else, knowing that, like you said, at this point you've been at Lirio for all of five weeks, so probably don't have much from there yet. But you know something. So if somebody was going to be working on a project, what's the inspiring one? Something cool that you enjoyed?
- [11:18]
Dr. Amy Bucher
So one of my favorite projects I ever worked on was at J and J and as I mentioned, Johnson Johnson's organized as a number of smaller companies under the parent umbrella and they're semi autonomous. So this was a pretty typical JJ project in which there were, I think, three different operating companies working together. Almost like, you know, it was almost like we had a lead company who'd hired others as vendors. But the Wellness and Prevention was what they named our part of the company after they acquired us. So the behavior science, the digital health coaching folks, we were one of the teams. And it was LifeScan, which was a JJ company at the time. They do diabetes care, so test strips and meters, things that you would use to test your blood sugar. And then Johnson and Johnson Medical India is actually a group that they have in India that handles a lot of their operations there. And so the project was to look at tier 2 cities in India where there is an increasing incidence of type 2 diabetes, and try to figure out how we could intervene behaviorally in order to help people manage those, you know, their diabetes. And specifically, the problem that they had observed is that people in India were not testing their blood sugar at clinically recommended levels. So clinically speaking, if you are testing Your blood sugar and you have diabetes, it's roughly five times a day. And of course, that varies on the patient, but just as an average five times a day. And the data for India showed that it was probably two times a week for most patients. So real big delta there. What I loved about the project, first of all, on a personal, selfish note, I love to travel. I love to experience new cultures. This was an incredible opportunity, not just to go to India, but to go to India and really see. I spent time in clinic clinics and doctors offices and hospitals, really seeing behind the scenes how life is lived in a different context from the one that I belong to. So that was just amazing, both as a person and a behavior scientist to get to experience that. But what was also really rewarding about it was developing this very intricate intervention that didn't look the way we expected because we did all of that research on the ground and really tried to understand the problem in context. So one of the things that we learned, I mentioned our product was called Digital Health Coaching. It was online. It was primarily something you'd access through a browser. And when we were doing our research, one of the things that became clearer is that we couldn't just rely on data about Internet access on kind of a city level. The patients we were seeing in the clinics that we were targeting to receive our intervention mostly did not have Internet access. Like, they would not be able to use a digital coaching solution. And so we pivoted in terms of our modality, and we actually built something that the clinician would interface with during a visit. So, you know, instead of taking notes in an emr, they could actually input some information into the system. It would tailor and personalize a coaching plan for the patient based on that conversation. There'd be a printout that the clinician could provide, but the patient never had to go online. And then as they were tracking their data and updating the system, they could do it through a simple SMS text message, because people do have cell phones. This, by the way, was 2010. So some of what I'm saying may no longer be accurate. But at the time, to me, it was kind of a revelation to see not only that that upfront research influences the content of the intervention, but sometimes the modality of it, that we really had to go back to basics in some ways and rethink how we were offering the solution at all. So I learned a lot from it. I had a lot of fun doing it. It was extremely rewarding.
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Diane Osgood
Yeah, well, and I mean, just like you're saying, there Is may feel like, well, we just need a better system. Like, we need it to, you know, in the way of the. Like, we need to make sure that they know up front that they doing it five times a day. And if they only knew this, right. If the logically, the logic part of the brain, right. If they only knew the consequences of not tracking as much, then they would change their behavior. That's what's needed. And if you actually take a step back and say, well, actually they can't upload it, right? So what's the point? They don't have the means to make that happen, no matter how much they want to, until we change our process.
- [15:25]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah.
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Diane Osgood
And I mean, the other thing that.
- [15:26]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Was really interesting about that, I think as a behavioral designer, it's really critical that I have respect for the people that I'm designing for. And that's a place, again, where there's overlap with human centered design, because that whole discipline comes with a strong sense of empathy and respect for the people who are the recipients of your design. The barriers that people had to testing were very real because just like you said, my logical brain was, okay, the science says this is a good thing. Like, why aren't people doing it? And the strips are cheap. They're 10 cents each. Well, they're 10 cents each in the US and they're also 10 cents each in India, where income levels are very different. So the price was a real barrier that honestly, we didn't do anything to address in that project. And I've spoken recently about this a little bit as I look back, like now with my level of seniority, and I feel a little bit more empowered to speak up about things sometimes I feel like if I were doing this project today, I would push as hard as I could on what can we do in terms of cost relief. At the time, I didn't do that. I don't know that it even occurred to me. We also saw there were cultural beliefs around insulin use that were influencing how people manage their diabetes. And those cultural beliefs weren't ones that resonated with me as someone who grew up in the United States, but they were very real and they were quite common. And I had to be respectful of the fact that people had a certain perception toward this medical care that I wasn't going to break through or change.
- [16:46]
Diane Osgood
Mm. Yeah. Just really interesting to think again. Like you said, some of it, you know, we're talking, like, got some hindsight, 2020 hindsight bias coming in. Even like, when you're talking about your cover Letters from earlier, like, where you look back and go, oh, why didn't I? Or I should have thought about this. But I'm sure that shapes other projects you work on now. Like, you said things where you will. Or have kind of stood up and said, yes, this all matters, and what about these other things and bringing that to the table.
- [17:19]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah, absolutely. I have worked with a number of health plan clients over the years, and I did one project recently with a health plan client looking at behavioral health and behavioral health care. And one of the primary barriers to people utilizing that type of care is the cost of it and finding care that is covered by insurance. Because a lot of providers actually don't accept insurance. They don't get reimbursed at the same kind of rate with insurance as they do through cash pay. And so with my client, I was very direct that, you know, the cost is a barrier. The more you can find ways to offer people lower cost options or to reduce, you know, or reimburse the providers at a higher rate that is closer to what they get in the cash market. That's definitely something that's inspired by my earlier experience. I don't know that I would have been so bold to bring that up because it is uncomfortable. We're not comfortable in general, I think, talking about money with our clients when we're talking about behavior. So. Yeah, absolutely.
- [18:14]
Diane Osgood
Well. And I think too, just even not to say that hurting is like. Hurting is one of those things that no matter how much we don't want it to impact us, it does. And to the, you know, we like to be. We'd rather be conventionally wrong than unconventionally. Right. And it can be hard to. Especially when everyone in the room, you assume they must have thought about it. They've been here longer than me. It's their product, they probably talked about it. So I just won't bring it up.
- [18:41]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Something like that. Yeah, yeah. And especially, you know, it's not that they weren't aware that cost was an issue, that they. They are not ostriches with their head in the sand. And I know that the people on our client team are not necessarily the people who are able to influence the cost or the way that money flows through the system, but the more that we can give them leverage to take back to the people who are the ones who make those decisions. I think that's part of our responsibility. Just even if we know we're not going to make the change with speaking up in this one moment. Speaking up in the one moment is like a grain of sand. That ultimate, I hope will add up to something more meaningful.
- [19:15]
Diane Osgood
Yeah, absolutely.
- [19:16]
Dr. Amy Bucher
I love that.
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Diane Osgood
I also just wanted to touch on where you were talking about understanding the real problem. Taking a look, as we've been talking about already, I wrote an article and I believe it was the 2019 Nobel prizes that one went to a team that had been increasing attendance in school and grades and things that they were looking in Africa and rural parts of India in trying to help the students to perform and be able to get good grades and go to school and all of that. And with looking at the problem, the first kind of surface level is saying, well, they don't have textbooks, they don't have good textbooks or access to textbooks. That's got to be the problem. And I think anybody looking at that pretty easily would say, well yeah, like A to B, easy connection point. Let's start our nonprofit and we'll get all these textbooks sent. Yay. Yes, we did it right. We raised all the money and sent the textbooks. Thankfully, you know, with this team doing some research and seeing what was really going on was that the teachers weren't going, there wasn't the motivation for them to go in. So addressing that incentive, even where they, you know, tested against some places where they sent books, it didn't matter when there was nobody to teach the kids. And so finding that right problem, you know, whatever that happens to be, is just again so, so critically important. Even when it seems so obvious what the issue is, just hit pause, make sure it really is. And it might be part of it or it could be the whole thing, but it's better to be sure. Like you said, measure twice.
- [20:55]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yep. What you just said reminds me actually my father in law gives very practical gifts all the time. And one year he gave me this pink solar powered flashlight and he bought it from a nonprofit. I forget what part of the world they work in, but it's you rural, they don't have electricity. And similar to what you just said, they were having issues with girls in particular not succeeding in school and they thought the issue might be that they didn't have lights that they could use to read their, you know, do their homework once night fell. And so they were distributing these flashlights and it didn't solve the problem. And it turned out the reason why is the boys were basically stealing all the girls flashlights. So they made the flashlights pink and there was a stigma against boys stealing the pink flashlights. So my father in law found out about this and they were running a thing where if you bought One flashlight, they would donate one to this, this place. So I have this pink solar powered flashlight. And I always think of that as an interesting example of you kind of knew what the problem was. But that extra research really got you to an accurate place.
- [21:53]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I love all those sorts of stories. It also makes me think of one which I don't remember where I heard it or I'm sure it's I read in a book. But again, I can't place where it came from. But it was talking about, you know, where malaria obviously being an issue and mosquito nets, simple solve in a lot of places. But even when they were essentially giving them away, people weren't hanging them in their houses because they didn't like how they looked. It was an esthetics piece. And you would think, well, it's got to just be functionality. That's all that matters. Who cares? But the humans in us still want things that look nice.
- [22:32]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah. Yes, we do.
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Diane Osgood
All right, so just looking at, you know, so your book engaged designing for behavior change for people that are listening and they are wanting to kind of start this process. If we assume it's someone, maybe they're in, in marketing or anywhere else in an organization. What's kind of the first piece of advice other than understanding the problem that you would be giving to people or if you have, you know, a specific framework want to share, kind of what's the best way to go about designing for behavior change?
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Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah. Wow. So as you were asking the question, I had about six different things flash into my head and I can't have six first things.
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Diane Osgood
Well, you know, yeah, no, I.
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Dr. Amy Bucher
So I have been trying to compile a list of resources for people to read that are accessible to a non academic audience as kind of like here's your 101 reading list to start to understand behavioral design as a process, but also some of the frameworks and tools that you might use. So that's something I do need to update it. I haven't touched it in a while. I will add your book to that because I think that's a wonderful overview of behavioral economics that I haven't seen anything quite like. But similar sorts of books that are extremely accessible. So that's the first thing I guess that I recommend to people as a general process. I mean it's really going through discovery to design, to testing and trying to make sure that people think about those as distinct phases. When I was at Madpo, I really liked the way we talked about it. So I'll say it now, even though I'm not part of that organization anymore, I mean, we'd had diagnose, prescribe. I think it was developed. I'm already forgetting the third one, and evaluate, but just breaking down that process in a systematic way. And I always think of it as aligning with the scientific method. You create your hypotheses and you test them, and then you revise based on what you learned. And then the other thing I tell people is if. If they've gotten to the stage where they feel like they have a sense of what behavioral design is and they want to actually test it out, what are some tools that are accessible to someone who's new to it? And there are three that I tend to recommend. So one is trying to do a literature review. And I always feel like that is a bit of a boring recommendation, like, you know, go do a book report on the published research. But it's such a critical step in behavioral design to understand the science that has come before, the methods that have worked, and the methods that maybe didn't work as well as they we want them to. And I think it saves a lot of pain if you can build on the success of other proven interventions. So. And it's a great exercise in understanding what behavioral design has looked like for other researchers, other practitioners in other contexts. So lit review is one. The second is creating a simple outcomes logic map for yourself. So really identifying the outcomes you hope to achieve with your project, the behaviors that you're trying to influence in order to get to those outcomes, and then what are, you know, what are the barriers that exist to people performing those behaviors? What are the things that you need to put into your intervention you're offering in order to overcome those barriers, get the behaviors to happen, and get to your successful results. Just laying those out in a systematic and logical way, I think, really helps put people into that behavioral design mindset and get them to approach their project activities in a more, I guess, appropriate way for that skill set. And then the third is doing a lens brainstorm, because there are these really fun points in many of our design projects. Or if you're a marketer, like, maybe you're creating a new campaign and you're in this sort of creative, generative phase of the project. And this is an opportunity to use behavioral lenses as you generate those ideas. So this is where some of the specific frameworks might come in. One that I use a lot and I talk about in my book is the combi model part of the behavior change wheel. Combi is an acronym so the B is behavior and then it's capability, opportunity, motivation. If you're doing a lens brainstorm, you could say, okay, we're going to try to change our customers behavior. We want them to click purchase on this website. How can we enhance their capability to do that? How can we enhance the opportunity for them to do that? How can we enhance the motivation for them to do that? And really separate out your ideas in those buckets, it helps get it better aligned with the proven theory of how you might get people to take action. Another one that I use a lot in those sorts of things is the self determination theory of motivation. And I won't go too into that, but one of the basic ideas is that if you want to get somebody really intrinsically interested in something, like really interested to the point where they're likely to pursue it, you should support their feelings of autonomy, competence and relatedness. And so again, using those three things as the brainstorming lenses, can we think of ways that we can get our ideas to align with that?
- [27:19]
Diane Osgood
So kind of like where you said, I asked the question, you had six things and now for each one I was like question, oh, but no this one. No this one. So you provided so many valuable pieces there. Of course, you know, we'll link to the book as far as the what should people do to find out what these are? You know, read the book, there'll be a link. So we've got that. But do you have an example of where you could share and maybe it's something that you kind of make up as we go of an amalgamation of processes of how this might work? But assuming, you know, if a client was to come to you and they have a problem, like what might that problem be in the way that it's stated to you and how would you kind of walk through from, you know, getting from A to Z using some of what you were just talking about to make that a little bit more practical for somebody?
- [28:14]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah, actually I can use that example that I just mentioned of the project that I did for a health plan around behavioral health. So that's a recent ish real example, it was less than a year ago. So health plan, they, the team that hired us was totally focused on wellness and had been given responsibility for behavioral health, especially in terms of their digital tools. So there's kind of the whole healthcare side of the business, but then they have these additional tools that are, I guess more consumer facing. Like if you're a health plan member, you get access to these additional resources. So the team we Were working with owned those things. And they wanted us to help them understand what people needed for behavioral health. And some of the questions they came to us with were, we have a wellness offering. Does it make sense to make behavioral health, mental health, part of that? Or does it need to be a standalone? Like, how different is it? And where does the line? What kind of tools will people find valuable? How can we offer them something digitally that enhances their experience working with a provider, you know, a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a counselor? So kind of a loose amalgam of questions. But we knew that the end result they wanted to get to was, what can we give this team where they can go out and build either a new offering or something into their existing offerings so that they are providing behavioral health support to their members. So it was kind of a big question. We. We often in behavioral design, do work with ambiguous questions. So one of the things that I advise people is be comfortable with the gray area. You will go through a lot of the process, not really knowing yet, but the process works. So what we did, we do a light literature review. So just in general, what are some of the issues that are in the field of behavioral health? And unfortunately, this is a little bit broad because behavioral health covers everything from feeling like, stressed out and not sleeping well to having more severe clinical issues. So it was a little bit broad, but we wanted to understand with the literature review, we spent quite some time with our clients. So we do stakeholder interviews where we talk to folks in the organization who have knowledge and expertise around the problem area. We're trying to understand it from different angles, because whatever solution we put out there, it will probably hit multiple teams at the client organization. You know, if we put a new app out, there may be people who call the customer support number with questions about it. There may be people who go to their doctor and say, hey, I'm using this app. What do you know about it? So we're trying to understand where those touch points might lie so that we can anticipate them in our design, as well as get partnership with the people who will need to support it. We don't want someone calling the call center six months from now Complaining about.
- [30:50]
Diane Osgood
An app we helped build.
- [30:51]
Dr. Amy Bucher
And the call center person's like, I've never heard of this, and I don't think you should use it. We want them excited about it, too. We want them to feel like they had a voice in building it. So we're trying to build a coalition as well as learn so that we design appropriately and Then primary research is a really big part of it. So for that project, we interviewed, I want to say, 30 patients and caregivers who really fell across that range of behavioral health concerns, as well as a number of providers who had all different specialties and focus areas. And when we're doing these interviews, you know, they're very pointed towards specific questions that we've generated with the clients, you know, really around how, how can we get people to utilize mental health care services? What are some of the tools and supports that a health plan could offer you, that you would find a value that would make your outcomes better? So, of course, we want to have that change in clinical symptoms and have people feel better, have them function better. But also, you know, for our client, they want to build loyalty. They want people to like them as a brand. And so we're also thinking, like, what reflects well, what fits with their image, what builds their credibility in your eyes. So we go through all of that research I mentioned, you know, behavioral design, very heavy up front. This was. This was the bulk of the work, I would say. And it really happens up front. And then from there we start to go into identifying insights. What are some of the themes, what are the things that we learned from this research? And then based on what that we've learned, what are the solutions? This is where models like that Combi model I mentioned can come in really handy, because in our insights, we can start to tag things as being capability, opportunity, motivation. And the model also includes almost a decision tree that says, if you observe issues in this area, these are the types of solutions that are likely to be effective. So we can start to narrow down what our solution set might look like. And again, that's calling back to the literature so that we're building on existing proof points. And then from there, it starts to resemble, I think, more of a typical design project for people who are familiar with those, where, you know, we might prototype things and put them in front of people and get their responses to it. Do you like this? Would you use it? Do you know how to use it? Is it meeting the client needs, but actually building the thing? And as a behavioral designer, at this point, my role really becomes someone who's making sure that all of the ingredients that we talked about, all the intervention ingredients, are being brought to life with fidelity. So if we're talking about adding some loss aversion here, is that content really reflecting loss aversion? Does that functionality work in a way that brings this behavioral element to life? And then ultimately we are launching whatever the Thing is, we designed. Sometimes it ends at a strategy report and it's on the clients to go and make choices about how they want to implement it. Sometimes we actually build the intervention and put it out in the world. If it's that latter case, we want to measure whether or not it works. Works. So we'll have a plan in place to collect data and to evaluate the quality of the intervention.
- [33:36]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. So you mentioned with the, you know, with the comb that you would have, you know, some standard ideas or that you got from the lit review of. If we see something like this, this is what we would maybe be looking at intervention wise. Is there a set kind of. You have in mind that, like, in general, these types of questions lead to priming or loss aversion as a tactic, and then the literature review is just sort of ends up confirming that. Or does that change with each project, really, based on the literature review? And I'm guessing you're going to say.
- [34:14]
Dr. Amy Bucher
It'S a mix of both, but it is a mix of both. There's certain types of behaviors that are compatible with certain types of interventions. So, I mean, you mentioned loss aversion. Whenever I'm in a project where I know I'm asking people to make choices, that says to me that loss aversion might be in the toolkit. So I've done work with benefits administrators, like when you join a new job and you have to pick your health plan. I've just gone through this. You go to that website, you have to pick which health plan you're going to choose. I've done work on those websites where the administrator has an opinion about which plans people should choose. And I will say I'm as cynical about some of the insurance stuff as anybody, but typically they want to push people towards the plans that are more affordable for them. So it's high deductible health plans, but they look more expensive. Actually, you should. I feel like you would be the perfect person to solve some of the language around high deductible health plans. They're so confusing. Right. They scare people. But ultimately for most people, they are a more economical choice. And so I've done a couple projects where it's like, how do we create this webpage so that when someone comes through, they understand that this is the better choice for them? Because the way the plans are described, it doesn't sound that way. It does exactly the opposite of what they would hope to do. So when I, whenever I see that, I'm like, okay, I have an idea what might be in the toolkit. I think where the surprise comes in is back at what we were talking about before, where sometimes what we think is the problem doesn't turn out to be the problem when we do the research. So, you know, I did one project recently that I probably can't get into a lot of details around, but our client said, our employees, there is this list of five or six behaviors that they're not doing that we really need them to do. We have data that if they do these behaviors, they will have better results. So we said, okay, we'll do the research. We'll understand why they're not doing the behaviors. We'll figure out how we address that. And when we did the research, we discovered out of the list of behaviors they gave us, there was one that we're like, this is actually probably not really a great behavior. People hate it, and it doesn't actually seem to be driving the results that you're after. And there was another one that the client thought people weren't doing, but it turns out they were. So we had to pivot the problem a little bit. And we did uncover some nuances on the other behaviors as well. It was really interesting. Like, one of the things they wanted people to be recording details of their interactions with customers and the customer Relationship Management System, the CRM. So in Salesforce or whatever it was they were using, and they were complaining that people didn't do that, and it turned out that they were capturing their data by hand oftentimes. So it was a slightly different problem. It wasn't that they weren't capturing the data. They weren't capturing it in the right place ways.
- [36:47]
Diane Osgood
Right.
- [36:47]
Dr. Amy Bucher
So not a surprise in terms of the interventions, we needed more. More like, this isn't the project we thought it was.
- [36:54]
Diane Osgood
Yeah, well, that's. Even so, as I had mentioned when we were getting started, here is I take handwritten notes, and you saw it before. Look at all these notes on here now. Blank sheet of paper, but now it's full of stuff. Whenever I'm doing interviews, I'm. I always have to write them by hand for one, because we're recording a podcast, and I'm sure, you know, for people that are on the phone with people to hear, click, click, click, click, click, click, click while you're typing would be terrible. And it's not really great. But then I have to go back and put that in when I'm creating the show notes. Technically, you know, it's maybe a little bit longer. And the only reason I get stuff out of the Notebook is because I actually need them for the episode to go live.
- [37:37]
Melina Palmer
But if you're thinking those notes are.
- [37:38]
Diane Osgood
Just for you, making it easy for people to get over that one barrier of just placing it into where they need it.
- [37:46]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah. Let me add another really interesting thing we found is that for some of the people we talked to, they didn't like entering it into the system because that felt really impersonal. They felt really warm and fuzzy toward their clients and like, this is a real personal relationship. And now I'm going to put into the cms or is that right? Yeah.
- [38:04]
Diane Osgood
CRM.
- [38:05]
Dr. Amy Bucher
CRM. Thank you. I'm in acronym Lance. CRM. I'm going to put it to the CRM that, like this, this person has a grandson named George. Like, that feels cold, that feels impersonal. So that was, you know, one of the things that we recommended is if they have the ability to do the, you know, handwriting, to text scan, like have people write it on their tablet and see if maybe that's a way to overcome the problem because then it still feels like you're making the personal note, but it's getting into the right database.
- [38:30]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's all the, you know, they have the notebooks these days where it's transferring over. So I keep thinking I'm going to get one of those. Time discounting hasn't worked out so much in my favor yet, but someday I'll get one of those. Yeah, well, I think that's. I love all of what you've talked about there. Thank you for walking through, you know, kind of what this might look like or has looked like on projects, knowing, of course, every project is different, which is, you know, why having a resource like a book or something, you know, the options you want to go through is so important. I am curious. So you talked about, you said a simple outcome logics map. Is that something that is a. There's a standard type of format for one that you really like or that people, where people are going to, if they wanted to go look that up and start that process, you know, where do they start for that? Yeah.
- [39:25]
Dr. Amy Bucher
So I have an example in my book and I actually evolved it from something that one of my colleagues at Johnson and Johnson used to do. So I'll credit Dr. Steve Schwartz. He actually was one of the technical reviewers for the book as well. So someone who's been really influential in the way I approach this work. So there's an example in the book where I did sort of a basic blank one and then I build it out and those figures are actually available on my publisher's website for anybody they have a Creative Commons license. So if you go to rosenfeldmedia.com and you look for Engaged on the book page, there's a click where you can see all the images in the book. So that's a great place to see an example, you know, very high level of what an outcomes logic map might look like. I don't think there is a standard version of it. I think that the concept is really common among behavior scientists. But I haven't seen like the version of what it might look like. The version in my book is where I usually start.
- [40:18]
Diane Osgood
Cool. Well I was thinking through. So I don't know if you've ever heard of Stormboard as a online resource. So it's software just. But like online that it's virtual post it notes and you can have multiple people on a team and you can change the colors of them and move them and turn them into index cards. I love using that as a post it person but not being worried they're all going to fall off. I'll come in one day and it was someone opened a door and they all fell and you go no, like where do they belong? But they have, you know, the standard customer empathy map and they actually have the hooked model from our friend Nira Al in there and you know some of these other human centered design type stuff. They have Kanban and like all those are. Are all in there. So you know, just curious if there was the like oh yeah, it's very much like this versus something else but.
- [41:15]
Dr. Amy Bucher
But there's a great place for people to go now. They have that great resource.
- [41:19]
Diane Osgood
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Dr. Amy Bucher
And actually as you I've used a lot of similar sound or at least I think they're similar based on your description. But Mural also has some templates if you're a Mural user that would lend themselves to this. They don't have behavioral logic map template but there's stuff in there you can work with for sure. And it is really good. If you're collaborating, I will say with the pandemic and switching to working from home. One of the things I missed the most was the rooms that we had with the dry, dry erase walls and putting up the post. Its like I really have grown fond of thinking in 3D space.
- [41:54]
Diane Osgood
Yeah, absolutely. Our last house my husband had painted. One of the walls in my office was a whiteboard wall. So I was able to do that. It was still mostly just me in there but it was great. I still was able to use It.
- [42:08]
Dr. Amy Bucher
I think some of it is the visual reminder of what your brain is doing is really helpful.
- [42:14]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. Priming, it's there. It matters for sure. Keep us on track. All that good stuff.
- [42:20]
Dr. Amy Bucher
By the way, I wanted to say, you cited my undergrad advisor in your book talking about priming. Priming was the thing that first got me interested in behavior science. So as an undergrad, I was in Nalani Ambati's lab at Harvard University, and so she did some of that early work on stereotype boosts like the Asian American women and stereotypes. Margaret Shee, who was her grad student and then went on to University of Michigan. I basically followed her there for my PhD because I wanted to continue working on this. And I was just. Every time I see that research cited, I get so. Just so excited like there, you know, it was such a formative thing for me. And I think really what captured my imagination was this idea that such small things can produce such big changes in the way that we perform.
- [43:05]
Diane Osgood
Yeah. Ooh, that's so exciting. That's fun. I'm sure it's one of those where anytime if I read a book or listen on a podcast and someone starts to say something and you go, I think I know what that is. I know that person. Very exciting. So thank you. I have used. I reference that research often, and so formative and important for me as well. Definitely not as significant as you, but that's amazing. I'm so glad to hear it.
- [43:33]
Dr. Amy Bucher
So thank you for letting me know.
- [43:35]
Diane Osgood
So, as we go ahead and wrap up here, for everyone who is now just so excited, I know you mentioned your publisher's website, but for people that want to get in contact with you, what's the best next step for them?
- [43:50]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah, there's a couple things. So I do have a website. I have been really poor about maintaining it between writing the book and getting into a new job and just being really busy. But I have aspirations to get back to blogging on there. But anyway, It's Amy Bucher PhD.com or I think I also have a redirect from Amy B. PhD, which is my Twitter name. So Twitter is also a place you can find me, but on my website, I try to archive links to things I've written, you know, talks I've given podcasts that I've been a guest on, things like that. So it's a good place to find, I guess, my work product, if you.
- [44:24]
Diane Osgood
Want to do that.
- [44:26]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Rosenfeld Media is a great place. They have a lot of information and resources around my book. And and I guess now I'm at Lirio so you'll see some thought leadership type activities for me on lirio.com awesome.
- [44:38]
Diane Osgood
Well thank you so much again and we will have all the links as we talked about. They're available so people can get in contact with you. And just thank you again for coming.
- [44:51]
Dr. Amy Bucher
In and having just such a lovely conversation.
- [44:53]
Diane Osgood
It was really fun to chat with you.
- [44:55]
Dr. Amy Bucher
Yeah, thank you.
- [44:58]
Melina Palmer
So what got your brain buzzing as you listened to this conversation with Amy today? For me, it's such a great reminder that behavior change often doesn't start with the clever idea or flashy campaign. Rather, it starts with deep understanding. And when companies skip that step, they build solutions that don't solve the right problem. A Met unneed. As the great Rory Sutherland says, that wastes time, money and energy and can erode trust with the very people you're trying to help. Amy's example of what it looks like to pause, reassess and truly meet people where they are is one I find myself sharing. Often it shows what's possible when teams commit to real world empathy and data informed design. That same thinking carries right into my conversation with Diane OSGOOD in episode 521, coming out in just a couple days. We talk about how businesses can shift from performative marketing to practices that actually drive positive impact, and how consumers are paying closer attention than ever. Instead of worrying about the negatives and avoiding being a brand people might boycott or cancel, consider the reframe of becoming a brand people choose to buy. Cot this is some of my favorite framing and I can't wait for you to hear the conversation with Diane to learn more and get her advice to show you how you can be in that coveted category. If you aren't yet subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now is a great time to do so to ensure you don't miss that or any other episode. Now I'd love to know have you ever seen or been part of a solution that worked because it was built with behavior in mind? Or one that missed the mark because that step was skipped? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy bit pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, including Engaged Ways to Get in Touch and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 520 and just like that episode 520 with Dr. Amy Buker is done. Join me Thursday for a brand new episode with Diane Osgood to explore sustainable shopping, ethical business practices and how we can all become more intentional consumers and brands. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.
- [47:34]
Thank you for listening to the the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.