526. Bridging the Gap: How Simple Conversations Can Combat Loneliness

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Brainy Business Podcast – Episode 526

Bridging the Gap: How Simple Conversations Can Combat Loneliness
Date: August 26, 2025
Guest: Dr. Nicholas (Nick) Epley, Professor of Behavioral Science, University of Chicago Booth School of Business
Host: Melina Palmer

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the psychological barriers and hidden benefits of everyday social interactions, drawing on Dr. Nick Epley's research into why people often avoid simple conversations—and how those small moments can meaningfully improve well-being, combat loneliness, and even strengthen organizational culture. Melina and Nick discuss why reaching out is so much more rewarding than we expect, practical tips for fostering meaningful conversations (as individuals and in business), and why we need to challenge our default assumptions about connecting with others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Loneliness Epidemic & Value of Everyday Connections

• Almost half of U.S. adults report feeling lonely, yet small interactions (with a stranger, colleague, or acquaintance) can have an outsized impact on happiness and belonging.
• Research Focus: Dr. Epley studies why people misunderstand or underestimate the value and outcomes of reaching out (03:57).

The Mindset Trap: Why We Don’t Reach Out

• Many people have the urge to connect but hold back, fearing they’ll be seen as “weird” or their outreach will be unwelcome (04:48).

• Nick Epley [06:51]:

  “There are also systematic mistakes...systematic gaps between our beliefs about someone else and reality. And if we can understand what those gaps are...the hope...is that we as psychologists have an opportunity to close those gaps and make people wiser.”

• Perceptions of “costs” (awkwardness, rejection) outweigh anticipated benefits, but these perceptions are often inaccurate (07:16).

Social “Risk” & Mismanagement of Social Calculus

• Every social interaction is a choice—to speak up or stay silent, to reconnect or hold back (10:49).
• We consistently overestimate how risky it is to reach out, and underestimate how positive and reciprocal most interactions will be.
• Memorable Story (12:52): Nick describes talking to a stranger on a sidewalk despite initial hesitance, leading to a surprisingly positive (and memorable) chat.

The Myth That Adult Friendships Are Harder

• Adults claim it’s harder to make friends, but Nick argues it’s more due to self-imposed mental barriers than actual difficulty (15:15).
• The same conversational “equipment” and social reciprocity functions in adulthood, but we use it less (16:14).

The Magnetic Quality of Conversation

• Conversations naturally surface commonalities—creating connection by reciprocity and the discovery of shared interests (16:31).
• Nick Epley [18:43]:

  “Conversation is like searching for a needle in a haystack with a magnet. It pulls for [commonality].”

• People are surprised by how much they have in common with strangers and how enjoyable conversations can be.

Depth vs. Small Talk: What Conversations Work Best?

• Both deep and shallow conversations can provide value, but people enjoy deeper conversations more when they try them (20:09).
• You don’t need a “runway” to go deep; simply ask more meaningful questions—like “Is that the job you always wanted?” instead of “Where do you work?” (20:50).
• Practical Tip: Take an active interest in others—ask questions that require depth and reveal yourself, as this fosters a better, more memorable exchange (23:50).

The Workplace: Building a Stronger Culture Through Connection

• Organizational cultures benefit greatly when people feel connected, share openly, and are willing to help each other (27:52).
  • Increases curiosity, reduces silos, and improves ethical behavior and creativity.
• Examples: MBA orientations at Booth use guided “deep conversations” to set the tone for openness and collaboration (29:45).
• Nick Epley [29:55]:

  “A culture where people are open and honest and willing to engage...is the kind of culture that every organization wants to have.”

• Practical suggestions: host regular lunches, start meetings with gratitude/appreciation, institute recurring informal “fika” (Swedish-style social coffee hours), both virtual and in-person (34:11, 36:32).

Using Technology for Real Connection

• Digital tools aren’t inherently antisocial, but typing at people is less effective for connection than talking out loud—voice humanizes and builds rapport (41:40).
• Use tech to actively engage (calls, video chat, real-time voice) not just scroll passively or blast information.
• Nick Epley [43:29]: “The voice is humanizing... [through it] you’re connected to another person’s mind.”

Actionable Advice for Individuals

Dr. Epley's top tips for building meaningful connection—both in personal life and at work:

• Share Kind Thoughts / Compliments (44:24)
  • Most people withhold about one-third of their compliments. Stop holding back—share positive thoughts openly.
  • Nick Epley [44:51]:

    “When you have something nice about somebody...it feels great for them to hear it. So start sharing that. Just be more open.”

• Express Gratitude
  • Writing a quick note of thanks, especially on a rough day, can instantly boost well-being for both parties.
• Talk to Strangers
  • A simple “hello” or question can significantly lift your mood and create unexpected joy.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (by Timestamp)

• On Social Anxiety About Reaching Out (10:49):

  “One of the big barriers that we find to people being more social in their daily lives is that they underestimate how social others are.” – Nick Epley

• On Conversation as Connection ‘Magnets’ (18:43):

  “Conversation is like searching for a needle in a haystack with a magnet...it pulls for [commonality].”

• On Meaningful Questions (20:50):

  “Person sits down next to you on the train...you can ask, ‘Is that the job you always wanted?’ And right there, you’re in meaningful conversation.”

• On Workplace Culture (29:55):

  “A culture where people are open and honest and willing to engage...is the kind of culture that every organization wants to have.”

• On Using Technology Wisely (43:29):

  “The voice is humanizing, we find in our research...you’re connected to their mind and that comes through their voice.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:57] – Dr. Epley’s research and mission
• [09:10] – Host/guest reflections on why we hesitate to reach out
• [12:52] – Sidewalk story: positive effects of talking to strangers
• [16:31] – How conversation builds connection and reveals similarity
• [20:09] – Deep vs. shallow conversation insights; Fast Friends technique
• [27:52] – Connections in the workplace, culture-building tips
• [34:11; 36:32] – Making connection habits stick: orientation, routines, “fika”
• [41:40] – Social media, technology, and voice as a connector
• [44:24] – Final action tips: share compliments, gratitude, and talk to strangers

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Further Resources

• Dr. Nick Epley’s Work: Find his research and writings by searching “Nicholas Epley” (he’s not on social media; contact via academic email).
• The Fast Friends Procedure: A list of questions for building rapid rapport.
• Related Episode: Melina’s episode on Vulnerability Loops (recommended for follow-up).

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• We systematically underestimate the positivity and value of simple social interactions.
• Building connections is much easier—and more beneficial—than we expect, both personally and professionally.
• Start small: Compliment someone, express gratitude, or say hello to a stranger. These moments are powerful, often more so than deep conversations.
• For organizations: Make opportunities for meaningful interaction routine and visible; model openness and connection as part of your culture.
• Challenge your assumptions about “awkwardness”—the science says your outreach will almost always be appreciated.

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“When you have something nice to say, say it. When you feel gratitude, share it. When you have a chance for connection, take it. It’s easier than you think—and it matters more than you know.”

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Transcript

[A]

Have you been thinking about diving deeper into behavioral economics? Now is the perfect time. Our Virtual Applied Behavioral Economics Certificate from Texas A and M University is enrolling now and I'm going to be teaching both foundations of behavioral economics and pricing strategy and product development this fall. Both courses run just once a year and they start September 5th. You will learn directly from me, including the option of live virtual office hours and you get to be a part of a global cohort of curious brainy professionals from around the world. Get all the details and claim your spot at HBL Tamu Edu. That's HBL like Human Behavior Lab, TAMU like Texas A and M University Edu and click on Certificate Program. Your future self will thank you and when you're ready, let's start the show. Welcome to episode 526 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Nick Epley. Ready? Let's get started.

[B]

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[A]

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. At a time where nearly half of us adults report feeling lonely, it's clear that many of us are craving connection. But does meaningful interaction always require deep conversations with close friends or family? Or can a brief exchange with a stranger on your commute make a difference? While I was speaking with Emily Kasriel about her book Deep Listening, which comes out in a couple days, she shared a powerful story about a spontaneous conversation with a stranger that had a lasting impact and it had me reflecting on the work of Dr. Nick Epley and this episode. His research looks at the underestimated value of everyday interactions. And we had such a great chat about why you should in fact talk to strangers and I knew it was the perfect refresh to to get you in the mood for that episode with Emily, which like I said comes out in just a few days. So here's a little bit about Nick. He's a professor at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and the director of the center for Decision Research. His work explores how we perceive others minds and the barriers that prevent genuine connection. In this episode he shares insights on how simple acts like saying hello or offering a compliment and can significantly enhance our well being and a sense of belonging really quickly. Before we get into the conversation. I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Nick and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 526now. Let's jump right in. Dr. Nick Epley, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[A]

Absolutely. I feel like I should say welcome finally to yeah, yeah.

[B]

Normally it's easy to hop on these sorts of calls and yeah, the world has been conspiring against me joining you, but I'm happy I'm finally here.

[A]

We made it happen. It's important. Yes. So I'm so glad that we battled through technology for you to be here and I'm so glad that you are. For everyone who's not yet familiar with you, I feel like we're like so entrenched now that we're like best friends having been through this. But if share a little bit about yourself and your background for people who don't know you yet.

[B]

Yeah. So my name is Nick Epley. I'm a professor of Behavioral science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. And I'm not a technophobe, but we did have some issues getting this to work out. I do, though, believe in low tech social interaction that actually involves really engaging with each other. And that's mostly what I study for a living. Not so much how that kind of engagement helps people connect more effectively or be happier, healthier, but rather what we've been studying for the last decade or so is trying to understand why folks who are happier and healthier when they reach out and engage with each other, when they connect with each other, when they talk with each other, when they engage positively with each other, are sometimes so reluctant to do it, sometimes avoid each other's in ways that might not be optimal for their own well being.

[A]

Yeah, it's really interesting. And of course I've been thinking about this a lot after reading the articles that you kindly sent over of some places where your work's been featured. And I'm one that reaches out to people more often than most and still not even close to all the times I think think about doing it. And it's been interesting in reading your work, of all the points where you think you want to but just totally underestimate, like the other person's going to think I'm weird or they might wonder why I'm Asking for them right now. And I'll just, you know, put that off until later. But like, why, why is that?

[B]

This connects with a more basic interest of mine that I've been focused on for my entire career solidly in the mid 20 year mark by now. And, and that is I, I study mind reading for a living. I study the kinds of inferences we make about each other's thoughts and beliefs and attitudes and mostly how we screw this up and misunderstand each other. And there are a bunch of reasons why it's hard to accurately understand the mind of another person. Chief among them is that's just a really hard problem. Another person's mind is the most complicated thing you'll ever think about. Not surprising that we make mistakes, that we're imperfect at this, even though we are the most socially sophisticated primate on the planet, as far as we can tell. But it's not just that it's a hard problem and we make mistakes. We don't really understand how another person thinks about something or how they feel about something. What's interesting to me is that there are also systematic mistakes, systematic gaps between our beliefs about someone else and reality. And if we can understand what those gaps are, we can understand why those gaps exist, then the hope, I think, is that we as psychologists have an opportunity to close those gaps and make people wiser. So it's not that you would want to reach out and engage with everybody all the time whenever you could have thought about it. You should reach out when it's optimal to do so. And I think people are suboptimal in that regard.

[A]

So how would we define that? It's, you know, what's optimal? I'm assuming that's not the same for everyone and every situation and every encounter.

[B]

Well, you know what's interesting, we'll get into this about how much this varies across people as it's easy to have beliefs or it's easy to have intuitions that connecting with other people, social interaction is more positive for some than for others. I don't think the data actually support that. But by optimal, I think we mean in ways that give you as much positive affect and as least negative affect as you can without incurring other costs. So in general, the way thinking about optimal here, as in maximizing your well being, and by well being we typically mean kind of two different dimensions that are often closely aligned. One are the momentary feelings and emotions you have. So is this a positive? Am I happy at what I'm doing right now? Right. And we do lots of things that don't make us happy because we know they're good for us and. But still, are we feeling good about what we're doing now and not sad or miserable about what we're doing now? And second is, are we satisfied with the life we're living now? And I think the data from around the world are just crystal clear in documenting that the quality of our social relationships is a critical determinant for our happiness. Probably the most important. Other people are the single biggest source of our happiness as well as our misery. And so when we reach out to other people in ways that are rewarding and can do that as often as it would be rewarding, we'd be likely to live better lives. And if we're avoiding opportunities that we could take easily. Right. Not hard, that are positive, then we're missing chances to increase the quality of our lives and I think the quality of others lives too.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. It is such an interesting conundrum is the word that I will use here. But that, you know, we know in general when someone reaches out to us out of the blue, we, I think overwhelmingly just think, oh, that's so nice. That's so great that they. So great to hear from them. It's been such a long time. Delightful.

[B]

Absolutely wonderful.

[A]

We think about reaching out to someone else and it's been a long time. Layer all the weirdness, like, why don't we.

[B]

Yeah, are they going to be interested? It's going to be weird.

[A]

Yeah. They're going to think I have some ulterior motive or, you know, they don't want to hear from me. They're going to be mad that I haven't talked to them in such a long time. It is, I find it so funny all the, so there are people, you know, you get the messages that say something like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I haven't talked to you. I know you're going be upset, but. And it's like, hey, I, I'm not mad. I don't like, I'm glad to hear from you. Now who cares, right? About that other thing. That doesn't matter. There's also the, this reminds me of some of the conversation having, I think with Vanessa Bonds when she was on the show. And there's this like kind of that spotlight effect and everything and where you say, like the people that make the grand announcement that they're going to be stepping away from Facebook or something for a while. Right. We think everyone is paying so much attention to us. And like, even though we don't sit and look at other people and go, they haven't checked in in a while. We feel like everyone's really monitoring us. You have any thoughts or anything you can share on this kind of weird disparity?

[B]

So one of the big barriers that we find to people being more social in their daily lives is that they underestimate how social others are. So the way to think about social interaction is there's that there is some, there's some choice moment, typically for us where we have to decide, am I going to engage with you or not? Person sits down next to you on a train, you have to decide, are we going to talk or am I going to keep to myself? Once you're talking, you have to decide, well, are we going to go, are we going to go deep here and have a meaningful conversation or am I going to just stay on the shallow end and talk about the weather? Right. A kind thought comes to your mind. You have to think about, do I share that with this person or do I hold it back? You feel grateful to somebody. Do you express it and share your appreciation with this person or not? You're thinking about somebody you'd like to reconnect with. You haven't talked to them in a while, you want to reach back out to them. Do you do this or not? On and on and on. You need some help. Do I ask for help when I need it? Right. All of these social interactions are preceded by a moment where you're making a choice about doing this. And in these moments there's a obvious risk, reward, trade off that you're dealing with. Other people are risky, right? They're risky and we have to decide whether the benefit outweighs the cost. And when you're ever in a situation like this, you've got two things pulling at you. You've got an approach oriented tendency, right? The benefit of reaching out. But then you've also got avoidance oriented fears, right? Things that reasons that make you nervous about doing this. Right. And I think what our data suggests is that we get that, that risk, reward, trade off with other people. Wrong. We miss management. Mismanagement. Mismanagement such that we think that it's going to be less positive. It's riskier to reach out and engage with someone than it actually is. And the bulk of that risk, I think, or a good chunk of it comes from thinking that other people just aren't as interested in engaging with us as we actually are. Somebody sits down, well, I was walking. I'll just tell you a story. From, from Monday. Earlier this week, I was walking downtown to go and give a talk downtown. Guy walks up next to me, we're on the sidewalk, somebody's coming down the road with a. On a bicycle, has a really bright, like strobe light on the front. The kind that would send you into a coma if you had, you know, some sort of sensitivity to light. And I just turned to this guy and I mentioned this thing, but he had his headphones in. If I had noticed that, I never would have said hello to him, never would have commented to him. But he took him out right away and then was happy to talk. Happy to talk. Right. But he wasn't. When I looked at him, he wasn't suggesting he was interested. Even though I was happy to talk, when I looked at him, he didn't seem so interested. It wasn't obvious. And as a result, I would have been hesitant, but because I didn't notice that I was happy to engage. And we had a lovely conversation for like a block and a half before I realized I was a block beyond where I needed to turn. But failing to realize that other people are social, they're not always showing us that is something that, that's a barrier to us. You're happy to talk to a friend who you know is happy to talk to you. Right. So there are times when we do this, but it's in those cases where there's some uncertainty. How's the person going to respond? Do they really want to talk? Where we underestimate how positive those interactions are going to go.

[A]

Yeah, well, and that's like, we talk about how hard it is to make friends as an adult, you know, and we kind of forget that, you know, I'm forced to, to make friends. My husband, so I have a. He's now officially 16 months. I have a 16 month old and he. So my husband and I are eyeing all the other kids and their parents at the daycare to see like. So who are we going to be stuck being friends with? Like, and do we want to be scoping out and trying to pick the best of the parents here, you know, to like nudge Hudson to go play with because their parents look like ones that might, we might want to talk to. But I think we, we underestimate, you know, how you even friends these days. When we were kids, it was so much easier to start up conversations and make friends. And so, yeah, I don't know, we, we get what, you know, what happens.

[B]

I don't think it was easier. I think it's just as easy now. It's just we don't. We don't do it so much. And I, and I do think even, you know, years ago, there's always been some element of anxiety about interacting with others. Now we have tools, technology that we sometimes use as a substitute for interacting with others. That's not quite as rewarding. But in principle, it's not any harder to connect with other people now than it's always been. You can still talk to the parents of your kids, friends, in person, with your face, making the sounds that come out of our mouths. All of that equipment still works just as well as it ever did, even if we don't use it as much as perhaps we ought to.

[A]

Yeah, we have those. Yeah, I think perhaps maybe it's more. More mental barriers and you can have more ridiculous conversations with yourself. I'm. You know, we like to think we're different than other people. I'm sure other people do this just as much as I do. But the, you know, you play out the conversation in your brain. Like, if I was to say this, then they might say this, and that would be weird. Or I say that, and then what if I did this? And then, you know, you spend 10 minutes having a conversation with yourself and, and no one else. And that's not rewarding either.

[B]

No. One of the common things that we find just if we just stick to something simple like having a conversation with a stranger. One of the common things that we find is that people are often surprised at how much they learn. Right? So that's one. One thing that we fail to see. They're surprised by how enjoyable the conversation is, and they are also surprised by how much they have in common with the other person. Right. Now, notice when you just look at somebody, they don't show you anything that they might have in common with you, unless you're wearing your alma mater's sweatshirt or something and they happen to be wearing the same thing. There just are not that many signals to the things. You can't look at somebody and guess that they grew up in the same town that you did or happen to know a friend that you have in common, or, hey, they like to go roller skating too, or whatever it is. You can't always tell that. But conversation. Conversation has a particular quality to it that generally makes them very rewarding and enjoyable that people don't seem to anticipate, and that is that they. They do elicit interest and they also elicit similarity. So conversations have kind of a magnetic quality to them. You go back and forth you reciprocate. There's a kind of cooperative element to it. That's the very nature of conversation. That's the very nature of almost all social exchange. I reached out to you, you reach back to me. That's the way it works. Reciprocity governs almost all social interaction. But conversation also has a unique quality to it in that you don't talk about anything and everything you could talk about. Like here you and I are not. We could talk about. I mean, the range of things we could possibly talk about is massive. Of course, the things we actually talk about are the things we have in common to talk about. And conversation with a stranger in particular, very quickly starts to go down that road and find those things you have in common with that person. Right. We sometimes think of, you know, friendship or as, as something that's really rare. Right. Or you're going to sit down and have a conversation with somebody and you're, you're not sure what you're going to talk about. Like what? I don't know you at all. What are we going to discuss? Right. It's like a needle in a haystack to find what you and I have in common. But conversation is like searching for a needle on a haystack with a magnet. It pulls for it. Because of course I said, hey, I grew up in Iowa. Oh, I'm an Iowan too. Or I know so. And so really, that was my neighbor. And, you know, off you go. It's got a magnetic quality to it that draws people together, that surprises people, catches people.

[A]

Yeah. And I, I know in. So. And you're alluding to some of it here. And I know from, you know, reading some of the papers and you talked about this a little bit. But it's not just, do we have just the surface level conversation or do we have the deeper level conversation and we assume that the other person probably doesn't, like, they don't know me. They don't want to have this deeper conversation. So I'm just not even going to do that. But most people are open to that. We like it better, we feel better after the fact. And there is a lot of value to just, you know, jumping in with some of those deeper types of questions or points of conversation. Do you have tips for people of the types of conversations to have?

[B]

Yeah. So I would say that our experiments that we've run on relatively shallow or deep conversation don't always indicate that deeper conversations are wildly better than shallower ones. In fact, people really kind of like just conversations when they Just talk about whatever. They enjoy those too. And they often get deeper as you talk to somebody for longer. But when people have both of these kinds of conversations, they do like the one that was deeper more than the one that was shallower. When they have both of them, even though they think going in no, they'll prefer the shallower one and the deeper one is going to be too much here. So I think what our data suggests is that if you don't like small talk, stop having it. It's okay. You don't need a long Runway to do. This. Person sits down next to you on the train, like I had somebody do here just yesterday morning. Person sits down to you next on the train. You ask them, you know where they work. Tell you, I'm in computer support downtown. You can ask them, is that the job you always wanted to have? And right there, like you are now, you're in meaningful conversation. Now you're learning something about what this person really wanted and they are happy to respond. When you take an interest in other people, they reveal interesting stuff and take an interest in you. And how can that conversation not be better? So are there secrets to doing this? What do you talk about? What do you say? When we run experiments on this, we do give people questions to discuss. So we pull from a procedure in social psychology that's become a little bit famous called the Fast Friends procedure, thanks to an op ed in the New York Times, which is how everything becomes famous, as far as I can tell from psychology. But, you know, we've, we adapt these a little bit. The, the, the deep conversations that we have involve questions that require you to reveal meaningful stuff about you. And we start right in. The Fast Friend procedure has like 30, 36 to 30, depends what you're doing. Has a lot of questions that start out really shallow, but you don't need to fiddle with that. You can jump right into the deep pool. Questions like, if I was going to become a good friend of yours, what would be important for me to know about you? What are you most grateful for in your life? Tell me about it. Can you tell me about one of the last times you cried in front of another person? And people just start right in, into those. But I don't think there's anything magical about those particular questions. What those questions do is they require you to be interested in another person and reveal interesting things about yourself. So I think, I mean that the, the tip that I give people here, and we're just now starting to run experiments that looks at what happens when people Actually follow these instructions is to just take an interest in another person. That's how you have good conversations. You be interested in them. And if you are interested in them, you will ask them questions that are interesting to you and likely interesting and in general. And the conversation is going to go well. What you talk about is going to vary from one person to another. Every conversation is different. But if you change your mindset about this interaction so that you're more social yourself, more interested in the other person, I think that's what's going to make it a lot better. That's how you have a deep conversation.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. The, the 36ish questions I featured recently. I did an episode on Vulnerability Loops, which I'm going to have be the top recommended next episode for everyone in the show. Notes from this, because I think it's really closely, you know, tied in here and you have to put yourself, you know, out on the ledge a little bit or you, you like it says in that paper, you know, you're willing to jump and know that the, you know, the land of trust is going to manifest beneath your feet. Right. That it's. You're going to have that better connection if you're willing to speak first, to ask the question first, to share a little bit about yourself, go into that kind of territory a little bit and then you can just have those better connections and conversations. And I really like that. The way you, the statement about the train, like you said, the person said they were in IT support. And the question that you ask there is so slightly different than what most people ask. Right. So. But it's meaningfully different in the. Where the conversation ends up going. It makes the person stop a little bit and go, huh? Because you don't typically get asked that. So you don't have that default response. So instead of like, oh, I'm in IT support, oh, where do you work? Would be the common type of question.

[B]

As if that matters.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Right? Or oh, my brother's in IT support, you know, and then you start talking about you.

[B]

Yeah. If you care about somebody, then you ask them questions that matter to them and that just I think then starts to come naturally. And I think what, what are. What our research suggests is that people are overly reluctant to do that, to adopt that approach to interacting with other people, to actually treat other people like they are friends, good friends, because they don't think the other person's going to appreciate it.

[A]

Yeah. But research shows that that's wrong, right? They. They do, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The effects Are. So I do. I often run experiments and talks that I give. I did this yesterday and I did it on Monday in downtown Chicago. We're talking on Thursday, for whatever it's worth, whenever this gets posted or listened to. Regarding. So just yesterday and three days ago. And I give a, you know, when I give a talk on under sociality, which is the stuff that we're talking about, people's tendency to be overly reluctant to reach out, engage with others. I will run a deep talk demonstration where I pair people up randomly and have them discuss a few meaningful questions with each other. And I have them report how they expect it's going to go, how awkward it's going to be, how much they're going to enjoy the conversation, how much they're going to like their partner. And then when they're done, I have them report how they actually felt about it. Normally, when you're a psychologist and you're running an experiment out there in the world, you're a little nervous about how it's going to go because, you know, a lot of, you know, effects vary a lot by context here or there, whatever, depending on the day and who you're doing it with or whatever. Right. There's some noise in it. And, and our effects aren't always so big. These are just crushing, just crushing. When people imagine having a meaningful conversation with a stranger, they think the other person's not going to want to hear it or care about it. And when they get into it and they open up to each other just goes, well, not always, but generally way better than people expect. And it is extremely robust effect. Extremely.

[A]

Yeah. Well, as we tie this into the business aspect of things, you know, for anybody who's listening and maybe so, yeah, that's great for individual people, but that's not a company problem. It's not our job to be manifesting these relationships. And, you know, managers and employees shouldn't be treating each other as if they're good friends because they've, there's a job to be done. You know, what would you say to those people?

[B]

So I would say two things. First off, there is a job to be done, but you got to want to do that job. And feeling good about where you're at, feeling connected to the place, liking your colleagues and coworkers, being willing to engage with the them. Feeling happy when you're at work is critical for wanting to do your job, period. The second thing I would say is that this matters a lot for the culture of the place that you are at. So most businesses Thrive when people are feeling good, when they're open and honest with each other, when they're willing to share information with each other. Right. When they're willing to engage with each other, they actually learn from each other and they wither and die. When people sit alone in their own silos, they're not creative, they're not engaged, it increases the likelihood they behave unethically when they're not engaging with each other so much. And so I think having a culture where people are open and honest and willing to engage and connect with each other, they feel connected to the place because they're connected to each other, is the kind of culture that every organization wants to have. And it's the kind of culture that helps get the job done wherever you are.

[A]

Yeah. And I know, I feel like I keep bringing this up, this particular piece of research and I don't know, it's like, is it top of mind for me, is it related to what we're talking about, is the type of conversations I'm having. But you know, the research showing that people that have a best friend at work, that say they have a best friend are more likely to be engaged and loyal with the organization, they're more likely to stay, they do better work, they're happier. And so you can do some stuff to help people have friends at work. And it doesn't have to just be, it shouldn't just be like mandatory zoom happy hours, because nobody wants that.

[B]

So I'll tell you that here at the University of Chicago, in our business school at booth, in the opening week of the MBA program here, the MBA students in orientation go through a session with me where I have them have a deep conversation. And I do this, we do this as part of, depends on the year, whether it's an hour and a half session with me or a three hour session with me. But we do this as part of an orientation session on culture. And the point I make to the students is that here at the University of Chicago, we're trying to figure out what's right and what's true. And that's our job. That's, that's, that's what it means to be here as a student or as a faculty member. And in order to do that, we've got to be able to be open and honest and real with each other, able to have hard conversations, able to talk honestly with people. And we're going to start doing that right now. And I make the point that people shouldn't let their own mind be a barrier to having the Kind of culture that, that we want. Other people appreciate it when you reach out and engage with them. So I think under sociality, people's reluctance to reach out and engage with other. Those psychological barriers that keep us from being connected to each other are exactly the kind of barriers that organizations would want to get rid of. Both to increase people's connection at work, but also to help them do the things that they need to get done at work, which often involve interacting with other people, sharing ideas, remembering who knows what, being willing to reach out and ask for help when you need it. All of that important stuff, feeling comfortable to blow the whistle if you see something bad happening. Right. That could avert disaster within an organization. Having that kind of culture is the one organizations want. So I think this is, I think it's deeply important at work.

[A]

I 1000% agree. And so I know we were joking, you were joking a little bit with me about how, you know, if you ever get your act together, that this topic is what your next book will be about. Like, yeah, this thing right here that you just said, that's the book like go write that book of the, like how to go do this at work and how you can use that to have better organizations. And what. I mean, people will love that. I guarantee that.

[B]

Maybe my follow up book or my, my.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's book three that's coming a chapter.

[B]

So. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. I think, I do think this. So I'm a psychologist at a business school who never thought I would be at a business school. There are lots of us here at the University of Chicago who are like that. And I don't particularly care about business in a unique way. The stuff that we have to tell our MBA students or the things that psychologists, basic psychology has to teach folks in business is the same thing that we have to teach people in their everyday lives. Right. The brain you carry with you to work is no different from the one that you have at home or on vacation or anywhere else. Right. So it's, it's bigger than that. But you're right that, you know, there are certainly a lot of practical implications to that particular domain of being at the office. They work for you at home, too. I often have students in my class who tell me, I teach an ethics class called Designing a Good Life. You tell me this is really, really good for work, really good for business and what I want to do in my career. But I really learned a lot about my family, how to be a mom or how to be a dad. Right?

[A]

Yeah, all related, for sure. Yeah. So for. To dig in on that business side a little bit more, where the. For someone who does want to build this out as a culture, to have a team that's going to be. Be more likely to be better connected and have all the value that you're talking about, that they get to be better individuals and helping to lift the, you know, team as a result as well, and building that great culture. Do you have advice about, like you said, when MBA students, you do either 90 minutes or three hours one time at the beginning, you know, with an organization, is there a bit of like at an orientation, or you do something once a quarter, or you pair people up with random people once a month that they have to go meet up with and have a conversation. What if it's a virtual culture? You know, Any. Any thoughts on. On any of that?

[B]

Yeah. So I think what you're wanting to think about what. What you're wanting to think about is how to. To do two things. One is to change the way people are interpreting what they're doing and what they're about. So this is what happens at the orientation session, I hope for our MBA students at booth is we are giving them very explicitly a description of what it means to be a booth student. What it means to be at the University of Chicago. What that means is to be open and honest and connected with each other. Not to be a mathematician or a quant junk of some kind. It's not that it's about being open and honest and real with each other. That's what it means. That alters, construal. You do that at the beginning. So if you're bringing people into your organization, think about interviewing with this part of your culture very much in mind. Interviewing, for instance, is really. We often think about it as an opportunity to select people for our organization. We're not so great at doing that. But what it really is good for is indoctrinating people, telling them, this is what we're about, this is what we're here for, this is what we do, this is what we're like. And so making sure that people have that construtor. This is a place where we're open and honest with each other, where we connect with each other, where this is expected and appropriate. We're a nice, decent place to work, where people are sociable. Having that up front is important and good. But the second thing you want to think about are seeding these practices. So none of this social stuff happens because you think about it. That is you might one time remember this conversation we had and then you go off and do it. But when it really happens and when it really becomes a part of your daily life is when it becomes a habit you're not really thinking about. It just becomes a practice that you do over and over and over again. And the way you get, you know, behavior change to work is you get it started, started doing something routine and fairly easy and fairly common. So if you are a, if you are a manager, an organization, you want your folks to be better connected. Make sure you have weekly lunches where you actually do this, right? Where it's routine. Start your meetings by asking folks, you know, somebody tell me what they're grateful for. Right? Let's, let's hear, let's hear what we got today. Or start a meeting by, you know, somebody sharing what they need help with. Tell me what you know. Where's a need? Can somebody meet this thing? Make it a habit. In those meetings, those regular practices, make sure that you've got maybe a Friday lunch where you get together and do this. If you're on Zoom, have an interactive coffee hour. So the Swedes are ahead of the rest of the world on this. They have a habit that they refer to as fika, which is a social coffee hour. They have, you know, in Swiss, Swedish organizations. Sorry, not Swiss, Swedish. So Volvo, ikea, those places, they have regular coffee breaks for everyone in the organization. That is the idea. But it's not just where you go down to get coffee. It's coffee with conversation. That's the idea of fika. You sit down and you engage with each other and that's just a part of their day. That's just a part of their daily life. Like it's like getting up, putting your shoes on 1030. This is what we do here. So when you make these activities routine and common and easy and just part of the habit, some people aren't thinking about it. You've just designed the situations or the context so that they happen this way. That's how you get them to spread through an organization and that's how you sustain them.

[A]

I love that. I was giving a talk to for a company recently. My new books about change management and working with teams and someone was talking about their working from home and then having to change and be coming back into the office and how you're wanting to talk to all the people, but then you end up just talking to everybody all day and you're not getting anything done when you're in the office. And do they want to talk to me. You know, a lot of this stuff coming up with it and you know, my recommendation to, to her was saying is, you know, you want to be taking advantage. You know, there are things you can do when you're in person that you can't do elsewhere. And if you make sure that you have dedicated time for that when you're in the office, there's value to welcoming people that are new faces and where she said she's been there for a long time and you can see like hey, I've never met you, we should talk. Like it's good to help those people to feel like they're valued, important part of the organization. You should do that. But if you just let it control your whole life, you know, and you're just a, at the whim of you seeing somebody and like I must get up now, you know, that's probably not great for, for things any either. But this idea of a dedicated time and a company could very easily say like you said at 10:30 here, no one has another meeting that's anything other than this. We're having a coffee chat time and it's not your time to go, you know, have coffee by yourself at home or whatever. But. And if you don't have someone to talk to, if you're virtual, you can like get randomly assigned someone or something. There's like an app that would pop up like this is your, your conversation partner of the day and you get put in there and there are some question prompts if you want them or you can just say hey how are you? And go from there. I think that's such a great way to help use technology and you know, people that are in the office and you can be able to set that up and have it be structured where. But it doesn't feel like structured but it's like a nice brain break and value in conversation.

[B]

Yep, yep. Just routine. Something that's habitual. Not all the time. Right. You can't be interruptions can't come at all random times. That's a problem.

[A]

Right. It's not like wait for the pop up and then everybody has to drop what you're doing for random social hour. That's probably not going to go over well.

[B]

I think often, I mean often in organizations, people, people don't do these sorts of activities that they kind of know would be good for everybody. Not because they can't imagine that it would be good. It's just that they just don't choose to make it a priority. If you choose to make It a priority. You would then start to think about, well, how do I create these opportunities in the organization that are not too costly? Right. So you want to maximize. You want to maximize their value, which means minimizing the cost and maximizing the reward, making it a habit that's easy to do, that other people see and can reciprocate. That's how you do this.

[A]

I love it. Well, the last thing that I was really thinking about that came to mind for me here is social media and how it's not quite social for most people. It's more bullhorn, you know, blasting about yourself, not asking, engaging conversations if you do, you know, the passive of a like or whatnot. So, so. But I think social media does have the capacity to fill some of the void for, for people that aren't, you know, getting out and meeting people if it's done right. Do you have thoughts or tips on how someone who wants to be able to connect better with others and they're looking to do that on social media, you know, what might, what might they try?

[B]

Yeah, so I think, I think the cost. So technology is a tool and, and we can use it well or use it poorly. Using it well, using it wisely requires knowing what it's, what it's good for and what it's not good for. It's often not good for the things that we use it for, like trying to make conversation or learn from people or understand their beliefs. That just isn't very helpful. Typing to each other doesn't communicate that much about what people are actually thinking or how they're feeling about something. So using technology for what it's good for is a value. What we find in our own work is that when you're interacting with someone, if you're trying to connect with somebody, typing at them is not so helpful. People think it's going to be weird to call folks out of the blue and talk to them. Turns out it's not. When you do it, and people feel more connected when they talk to each other, they also seem more. The other person seems more mindful, more thoughtful and intelligent, more human. Like the voice is humanizing, we find in our research. Whereas typing to each other text itself, just the words they lack, they lack the emotion and the mind, the thinking behind those words that you get from a person's voice. You can tell, for instance, that I feel strongly about something by how I sound. And you can tell when I'm thinking about something by how long I pause. You can hear my mind working when we talk and that's what connects you with another person, that makes you feel connected to another person. You're connected to their mind and that comes through their voice. And technology allows us to do that. Right. Like we're doing right now, talking to each other. I can hear you. You can hear me. And so I think we can use technology more, more wisely. Use it to talk with each other more than to type with each other. Use it more for active engagement than for passive scrolling and just looking at things. Social media, that doesn't create a whole lot of connection, but using it in an active way that allows you to use your voice. Shoot. You can connect with people around the world that way. That's amazing.

[A]

Well, I love that. And I think that I'm very hopeful that a lot of people are going to be making a connection today. Right. So what's the. As we close this out, I guess would be the. If you were going to give someone one tip of something they can go do today and to build their habits in this way, you know, what should they start doing? What's a simple thing to start doing right away?

[B]

I would say two things. Both involve kind words. One is share kind thoughts with other people. We find in our work that people report withholding. 30, 36%. They told us, on average in this survey, about a third of the compliments that come to their mind, they report withholding.

[A]

I bet it's more than that. That seems low.

[B]

Maybe it may be.

[A]

Yeah, stop doing that. Yeah.

[B]

When you have something nice about somebody, when you feel good about somebody, they probably don't know it and it feels great for them to hear it. So start sharing that. Just be more open. I think you're great. I really appreciate you. Love your podcast. Appreciate the work you do. My colleague thinks you're terrific. A yellow fishbuck who's been on your show before. Right. You have these. You have these kind thoughts you can share. Why are you holding them back? That's not wise. The other thing that you can do, I think on almost any given day, this is particularly if you're having kind of a crummy day. I think without question, one of the most positive things you can do, at least by yourself, is to think about somebody who you feel grateful to and write them a note. That's easy to do, very powerful. And then there's one other thing that I would. That I would suggest too, I guess, which is to try to connect with a stranger, talk to somebody. Our effects on people's happiness before and after having a conversation are some of the biggest positive activity interventions that we've ever field's ever seen, I think perhaps some of the most robust, that when you have a conversation with somebody, including a stranger, maybe even especially a stranger, that's just really good. It's not hard to do, but it's a habit. You can pick up, say hello, ask somebody how their day is going, find out about somebody else. That's going to be way more rewarding and positive than you think it will be. That's easy to do often.

[A]

I love it. Wonderful advice. Easy to do if you focus on it. Easy to forget if we don't. So that's where it's important to take the initiative, do the thing. It's easy. It's worth it. So we'll let people go do that right now.

[B]

You don't have to believe me or you on this. You can go out and try this. Yeah, just do it. You'll find out.

[A]

Yeah, easy. Perfect. Well, we'll have links for people to learn more about you. We didn't even begin to scratch the surface on your first book on mindwise, but it'll be linked in the show. Notes for everyone as well and, and some information on, you know, where they can learn more about you at the Booth School of Business. Is there anywhere else where we should be sending people if they wanted to get in contact and learn more?

[B]

So I study social connection for a living, which means I don't use social media, I'm afraid. So you can't follow me anywhere, but you find, find everything I've ever written that I would care for you to read on my website. Just Google my name, Nicholas Epley.

[A]

You'll find it perfect. Well, we'll make sure to link it. We'll make it even easier. And for everyone who has nice, kind thoughts, I'm sure you can find, you know, academic emails are easy to find to send a nice email to Nick, since you can't connect with him on the socials, to tell him how you're.

[B]

On the non socials, the antisocials.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I love getting emails. Appreciate that. Thank you.

[A]

Perfect. Well, thank you again, Nick. It was so much fun to talk with you and I look forward to the next. You know, we'll do a coffee chat, maybe in person next time I make it to Chicago.

[B]

That would be lovely. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you again to Dr. Nick Epley for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, it's the realization that we often overlook the profound impact of simple everyday interactions, loneliness is now being referred to as an epidemic. An article in the Science survey says that while loneliness was once considered only a personal affliction, it's now likened to a public health epidemic exhibiting consequences as dire as smoking or obesity. In a time where nearly half of people in the US Say they feel lonely, these brief moments of connection, like chatting with a barista or greeting a neighbor, can play a crucial role in enhancing your own well being and the well being of those around you. It's a little gift you can be giving to yourself and others every day. It just takes a couple minutes. So worth it. You know, one thing that really stuck with me from this conversation is how inaccurate our predictions are about these interactions. Nick's research shows that we tend to assume they're going to be awkward or unwanted, but in reality, people are almost always glad we said something. That disconnect between what we think will happen and what actually does can keep us from reaching out, meaning both people miss out on the benefits. This conversation is a perfect reminder that connection doesn't always require hours of deep talk and that we can all benefit from being better listeners. As you'll hear in my conversation with Emily Kasriel, which goes live in a couple days. A small moment, a kind word, a brief exchange. These matter too. You don't have to wait for the right moment to start building connections and deeply listening. Just start. Ask a question, see what opens up. And with that in mind, let's start a conversation on social media. I'm curious. Have you had a small, surprising chat lately that brightened your day and interaction? Or maybe you're thinking of someone who you should reach out to just because I'd love to hear about it. Come share it with me there on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 526 and thank you again to Dr. Nick Epley for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Thursday when I sit down with Emily Kasriel to discuss her book Deep Listening. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

[B]

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.