← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
527. Deep Listening: The Secret to Connection and Understanding
00:47:50
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Emily Kasriel, author of the insightful book, Deep Listening. Together, they explore the transformative power of deep listening in fostering better communication, stronger...
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Melina Palmer
Have you been thinking about diving deeper into behavioral economics? Now is the perfect time. Our Virtual Applied Behavioral Economics Certificate from Texas A and M University is enrolling now and I'm going to be teaching both foundations of behavioral economics and pricing strategy and product development this fall. Both courses run just once a year and they start September 5th. You will learn directly from me, including the option of live virtual office hours and you get to be a part of a global cohort of curious brainy professionals from around the world. Get all the details and claim your spot@hbl Tamu.edu. that's HBL like Human Behavior Lab, TAMU like Texas A and M University. Edu and click on Certificate Program. Your future self will thank you and when you're ready, let's start the show. Welcome to episode 527 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Emily Kasriel, author of Deep Listening. Ready?
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Let's get started.
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Podcast Narrator
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain free. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.
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Melina Palmer
Hello. Hello everyone.
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My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. What if the most powerful part of a conversation isn't what you say, but what you don't? In a world where everyone seems to be talking, posting and sharing constantly, the skill of truly listening deeply, intentionally, without rushing to respond is rare. But it might just be the secret to better leadership, stronger relationships and resolving conflicts. That's why I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest, Emily Khasriel. Emily is an award winning journalist, executive coach, mediator and visiting fellow at the London School of Economics. She spent more than two decades at the BBC and developed the Deep Listening Project to help people truly hear and understand one another, especially across lines of disagreement. The concept of deep listening is important.
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In every area of life, from our.
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Personal relationships to our business decisions. And when we think about behavioral science, listening is a behavior and an incredibly powerful one that often goes underappreciated.
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You'll hear us discuss how the steps.
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Of deep listening can be transformational, including a live demonstration with where Emily shows.
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Just how easy this can be by.
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Listening to me live in the moment.
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And of course, we talk through those.
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Eight steps clearly in the conversation. As you listen, I encourage you to consider when's the last time you felt heard and when's the last time you made space for someone else to feel that way? Even if you've got some room to.
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Improve, don't worry, this episode's going to.
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Give you lots of tips really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, including Deep Listening, ways to get in touch with Emily and myself, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 527.
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Now.
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Let's jump right in. Emily Kasriel, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
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Emily Kasriel
Thank you so much. Great to be here.
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Melina Palmer
Yes, I'm very delighted to have you. I really enjoyed your book, as I know I was just saying with you, I'm excited to be able to talk about deep listening with you here today.
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Before we jump into that, for everyone.
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Who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and.
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The work that you do.
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Emily Kasriel
So I was at the BBC for over two decades, reporting, editing, being head of special projects at BBC News. Lots of mischief. And that included working on solutions, journalism and leading a season we called Crossing Divides, which is something I came up with because I wanted us to tell stories at the BBC of engaging across race, class, religion, age, politics barriers rather than merely the conflict stories. So I got the whole of news and sports and religion and children's programs and local radio stations to tell these stories and it's that that made me realize I needed to know more. How can we have these more profound encounters? And so it was my background as an executive coach for over a decade and also as an accredited workplace mediator I drew upon as well as a lot of academic research and interviews in order to evolve this eight step deep listening approach.
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Melina Palmer
I love that. Well, so, so what drew you to like you said that Crossing Divides. Can you tell a little bit more about like the inspiration behind that? Was there a specific catalyst that you remember that was exciting about getting that set up or like why you wanted to to do that program?
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Emily Kasriel
I think it was actually a season, so it was loads of programs. Not of course all made by me, but I encouraged and got a bit of funding to support all these different projects. And it was because it felt to me so important that news and all these different parts of a big media organization like the BBC showcase people engaging across difference because so often the media and we know this is so important, just show two extremes in battle with each other and in doing so we normalize conflict. And in fact, the research by. More in Common, a great NGO who did research for me also for this book with YouGov in the US shows that a lot of the time people have these misunderstandings about the other side. Take the political other side. So, for example, Republicans think that Democrats are much more supportive of abortion than they actually are, and we simplify what the other says and therefore we avoid them, almost like a moral imperative, rather than actually listening to them. And it feels so motivating for me to be able to encourage people through the book and being on podcasts like yours, to take that step of courage to engage with people and listen to people, even if they think differently. And what makes this easier is this realization that if you listen, it does not mean you will agree. You will not be contaminated by ideas you might find abhorrent, but instead you might understand more. And in fact, the person you're listening to might also understand more about themselves and perhaps introduce some complexity into their thinking, and you'll both feel much more connected, even if you still disagree.
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Melina Palmer
Definitely. I really liked. And so I said I wasn't going to jump around too much before we get into the eight steps, but I feel like it's tied in, at least in here. I really liked the example you gave about the dairy farmer and being able to talk about climate change. And this, you know, this I think, kind of showcases the example you're saying here of where you disagree with someone but can still hear their story. Can you share a little bit of that?
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And if, if you wanted to tie.
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It in with the eight steps, you know, feel free to, to do it that way. But I think I really enjoyed that story particularly well.
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Emily Kasriel
I wanted to actually see about how deep listening can be used in a journalistic context with somebody you don't agree with. So I went and talked to some dairy farmers who do not agree that climate change is induced by humans. It's quickened because of our activity on the planet. And the vast majority of scientists believe that it is like me. And so when I went to talk to this farmer, I went with an open mind. I was aware about my own beliefs, but I was really curious, especially when I spent more time with him. And he was obviously really thoughtful, really intelligent, and had spent decades as a dairy farmer. And in fact, he was a long line of dairy farmers. His family had been looking after cows in the same fields, but almost, in fact, over a hundred years. So I had respect for his lived experience, his knowledge. And yet I was surprised. How could someone who knew so much not believe in the reality of climate change. And I was listening to his perspective and trying to make sense of it. And I stayed the night at a local pub just near his farm. And in that morning, after I had first talked to him, I went for a walk amongst the fields. And in my mind I was like, what's going on here? What's his perspective? What does the world look like from his eyes? And I realized that he was very, very frustrated and angry because he felt that these people who sit in Westminster at the very sort of a bit like the DC Swamp, the very epicenter of power in the uk, had little lived experience of dairy farmers. And they had a whole lot of regulations that dairy farmers had to deal with. They had regulations about tb, about what was called mad cow disease, and now about climate change. And he saw climate change as yet another thing invented almost by these mandarins, these politicians who. The civil service, who didn't really know his reality. And what was so interesting is when I wrote this story, I put it in the context of a lot of climate science, because it's a BBC story, and I didn't want to in any way convey the wrong impression to people. But he still felt heard, he still felt like I had really wanted to understand him. And in fact, I gave him a call because when I wanted to include the story in my book on deep listening, I wanted to check in with him because an article's different from a book. And he said, yeah, perfectly happy. In fact, why don't you start your second book on deep listening here on the farm?
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Melina Palmer
I love that. And it was nice that, like, you can, like you said, he felt heard even when what you were saying was.
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Contrary to what he believes.
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Right. And that this was able to feel like that kind of checked a box for him, I would say, in that. In that way, right. Of saying, like, somebody listened to me, someone paid attention. I know you talk about confirmation bias a bit in the book, but even when we get so rooted into the thing that we believe, and like you said, in that polarizing world that we're in, which you also, of course, talk about in the book quite a bit, but we're feeling that that person's not like me, and we color them in this grand extreme that's very different from us, and it feels like they're out to get me, and I have to be, like, ready for battle in every conversation that I'm going into, especially with.
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That difficult person who will always be.
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Difficult and they always have been, and it will Never, ever change, because that's what they believe. And I appreciate that the book helps.
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To show that that doesn't have to be true.
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But can you share a little bit about the, you know, how confirmation bias kind of comes into play with some of those conversations and as it has to do with just one, both listening and just any sort of conversing?
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Emily Kasriel
I suppose, yeah. Because when we listen, we think we're listening to everything, but of course we're not. We're super hyper selective on what we hear, what we take in. Which is why often you might find, for example, in a work context that you've given instructions which you think are perfectly clear and somebody else goes and does completely the opposite. I've certainly had that experience on both sides. So we know. And I found that when I'm giving workshops and I say, for example, you don't need to deepen deeply listen in every conversation, people will always say, well, do I really need to listen in every deeply listen in every conversation? So I know that we don't hear everything, we have to be selective because otherwise we'd get inundated. And the selection that we choose the filter is based on our own assumptions and biases. But what's really exciting is that when I did this very large scale deep listening project, when we recruited with the BBC and the British Council, a thousand people in over 100 countries and we're talking about a really diverse set of countries, by the way. The countries most represented were the uk, New Zealand, Malaysia and Iran. A mate of mine runs the BBC Persian service, so help recruit on telegram, which was helpful and we found with this project. When I was doing this project, I thought, I don't want to do such a large project without actually testing how my deep listening worked, especially when we disagree, when we'd be more likely to be caught up in that confirmation bias and all those other traps that prevent us from really listening. So I reached out to some academics at the University of Reading and University of Haifa and we set up a control group and the results have just been published in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology. Your bedtime reading not. But the results showed that people who practice deep listening, they felt much more open to re examining, to examining their own attitudes. And so they came to understand that more than one perspective is possible. They also felt much more understood and connected with their conversation partners even as they discussed these subjects which they selected to disagree about the most. Like social media is a good, you know, force for good, or we should pay reparations to the descendants of Slaves. So even when you really fiercely disagree and I know in the modern workplace context how many disagreements they are from whether or not we could do remote working and how much to D and I and how much we need to have a policies of inclusivity and intergenerational differences as well. Of course. And then in these contexts, as demonstrated in this big study, because studies that are on in academic research rarely go so global demonstrated that we can learn to listen and we can, when we practice deep listening, be far more connected even when we still disagree.
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Melina Palmer
Well, thank goodness. And let's get this in the hands of everyone possible to help, you know, change some of what it feels like the direction things have been going recently. Let's. Let's get some of that deep listening going for sure to be helping with that connectedness and just. And again, knowing it's not about changing people's minds. I have, I made a note, it was a quote that I really liked and I'm now gonna see if I even have it. But it was so that changing the mind of the other person can't maybe an ambition but or should not be the ambition, but it may be an outcome which I even where I wrote the quote and I paraphrased it badly. But essentially I really thought, you know, like when I talk about confirmation bias, someone will always say like oh good, I know this person's wrong. How do I show them that they are and say like no, no, that's not the way. Like I can tell you all the ways that's not gonna go well. And no, we look at ourselves first and whatnot. But I really liked and the way you said it, like I said is much better than what I wrote down. But essentially it should not be your ambition in the conversation to change the other person's mind. And if instead you go into it with this open perspective, yeah, that might happen.
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And ideally your mind is going to change a little bit as well.
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Right? We have to be open to this being a two way street. And if you're not open to your own change, how could you possibly expect that the other person's going to be open to change?
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Emily Kasriel
Yeah, absolutely. And what is really exciting is that other research evidences that when people feel truly heard, they dial down what's called the technical jargon, their attitude, extremity, so they feel less strongly about their position because they've lowered their defenses, because they feel on some level that you've accepted them as a person. And after all, we are all so desperate to feel heard and we are heard so rarely. So this is a beautiful, precious gift you can give to people who you disagree with, but also to your colleagues, to your families, to your neighbors, and even to strangers. Let me tell you a little story. Actually, it's not in my book. It happened to me just relatively recently. There's a local pharmacy just around the corner from my house, and I was picking up some drugs for my daughter, and there was a lady sitting waiting on a plastic chair for her own drugs. And the pharmacist said, so what's the date of birth of your daughter? And I said, third of July 21. She said, are you sure? And I thought for a moment, no, no. How could that be? No, no, no. It's 3rd of July, 2001. Whereupon the lady sitting on the chair said, for goodness sake, how could you not know how old your daughter is? And I replied, you know, you're quite right. That's pretty silly of me. Pretty silly of me, indeed. I mean, she's a, you know, grown adult woman. And we then had chatted with a woman waiting, and she. She talked about her grandmother and how proud she was because her grandmother had just reached an important 90th birthday. And I said, you're so proud. And she says, yeah, I am proud. And I had a sense something else was going on. So I said to her, I sense you're proud, but I sense there's something else stopping you feeling fully proud. And she replied, yeah, I think I'm going to die before my grandmother. And then we talked some more, and she shared her condition, and then she cried, and then she apologized for crying, and I thanked her for sharing with me what was going on in her life, and she thanked me for listening. And I went back home around the corner, and it made me realize, you know, this stuff about how rarely we are heard, but how we can offer this opportunity. Because I had a sense that this lady hadn't shared with many people. There was a lot that she was carrying on her shoulders all on her own. And we know about the scourge of loneliness that's affecting so many of us. So if any of us can do something to help tackle that, as well as the polarization challenges we were talking about earlier, that would be really warm my heart and be a fantastic outcome of this podcast and the book.
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Melina Palmer
Oh, definitely. And thank you for sharing that story as well. That's one of those things where just knowing as we go through stuff, right, that there are things that feel the heaviest, often are the hardest to share with those that we're Close to. Because like in some ways it's like I don't want to have a whole thing about this. Like I don't want to have a whole conversation and be you're going to check in with me again and I have to have 50 conversations.
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It's like I feel this in this.
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Moment and I kind of want to say the thing and have it exist, but I don't know that I actually want to. And I can say it to a stranger and maybe they'll hear it. Not every stranger. Right. But like feel like there's this sense that you can have that conversation and then we just don't have to talk about it again. But you feel that like connected and closeness. I know you talk a bit about the up in the book as well about. It's not that we need a higher quantity of conversations per se, but we need better, deeper connected conversations to be helping with that loneliness aspect. And so knowing that you can have a deep conversation with someone you just met and will never speak to again and have great benefit from that, I think is a really good lesson for people as well.
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Emily Kasriel
Yeah. And I think it was also looking back on that conversation, the fact that I was willing to be vulnerable and tell her, yeah, I messed up when she was teasing me about forgetting my daughter's birth date allowed her to be vulnerable. And I think there's a lot of research actually, in fact recent research with robots that found that even though people knew they were robot in a conversation and they were vulnerable, it encouraged other people, especially the people who share less often to share and share for longer, which is so interesting. And I think that that's really helpful for people when they are in conversation in whatever role they're playing. It makes things more authentic, doesn't it? It suddenly changes from a pre script to a real conversation, which is hugely valuable. And we all, as you say, we want those deeper connections. And it's that Harvard longitudinal study which is the most, I think the study over a greatest period of time, with the most participants that demonstrated that those deeper connections rather than the quantity of connections really aff human happiness and mental and physical longevity.
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, that's such a great study. And it's for those who aren't familiar.
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It was 60, 70, 80 years or.
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Something that they followed people throughout their lives and being able to see how they evolved and over time and relationships and like you said, so so much and where the, you know, so many researchers that changed over the years more than the those who were being looked at for the study and Being able to continue that on, I think in of itself, I think it's a fascinating study that you can have enough people want to like continue the work for such a long time. It's pretty cool.
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Emily Kasriel
Yeah, no, it's really, really moving. Would you like me to talk through the eight steps of deep listening and then maybe we could do a live demo on air. It's a bit risky, but quite fun. Okay, so let me talk you through the eight steps and there's a lot more detail in the book. That's a chapter each, but let me give you a sense so you could try some in your life right now. So step one is about creating the space. So number one, it's really about psychological safety. So if you're in an open plan office and you need to hear why your employee is always late, best not in an open plan office. Even if there's a glass divider, people are not going to feel safe. Imagine what feels safe for them. But even better, go for a walk, go to a neutral space. Even better in nature because research evidence is that nature makes us feel more relaxed. So you'll be able to listen more acutely and your speaking partner will be able to share more authentically. Even better with some water going by that is truly helpful. So you can even in step one, think about how to make a person feel truly cherished. Which is why I spent time in Japan with tea ceremony practitioners. So if they're holding a special ceramic cup, they will rotate it so that the design which suits you is exactly facing you. It'll cover it with a fresh bamboo leaf from the garden garden everything to make you feel cherished and feel ready to share more authentically. Step two is about listening to yourself first. Because you can't listen to somebody else until you really know what's going on with you. What's your hidden agenda? Maybe that person, you know, you don't really feel you're listening to that person, but you're listening to your bullying older brother and you feel five again. Because that person who you need to listen to your colleague at work just reminds you of him. And taking time to listen to ourself is difficult. If we face traumas, we probably need the help of a professional to help us understand what's going on in our psyche. And in fact, in the book, which I also illustrated, one of my favorite illustrations is one where I painted all the kind of demons that are happening inside us when really kind of causing chaos when we just just a focus and trying to listen. But if we do Listen to them first. If we can even learn to acknowledge and accept them, we'll be in a better place to be open to the other person. But sometimes they still might raise their heads in the middle of the conversation when something our partner, speaking partner says triggers us. And then the invitation is to take a breath and return to an anchor, something that, that makes you feel safe or you might need to say can I just take five minutes? Because something's just come up and I just need to recenter just be. It's all about authenticity and honesty. Step three is about being fully present because so often when we listen, I mean even on a zoom call like this, do you know what I might be doing? I might be checking my emails below. Yeah, below you can't even see them. I think it's perfectly fine, but you know, I'm not really listening. Yeah, phones number one, even if they're off, the very shiny screen still draws us and compels us. And then there's a distractions in our own mind. Oh God, I've got to finish this. Gotta get home for the big game or going to see the dentist. And again, being aware, learning to be aware of what's going on in our own mind so we can recenter and go back to the speaker is so important. Important. Step four, Be curious. Now, being curious is a fantastic gateway quality because if you are truly curious and if you assume that you do not already know what your speaker wants to share, you can really uncover a whole different array of things from them which then allows you to feel empathetic and perhaps even and respectful of them. Step five is about the gaze. So as I'm speaking to you, I'm actually not looking at your face, which I am now, but looking at the camera virtually it's quite difficult because it feels unnatural in order that the listener, in which case that's you, feel heard and feel that I'm speaking to you or indeed listening to you in real person a hell of a lot easier. And the gaze, unless you're listening to a first nation elder or you're on the spectrum, having a warm, supportive, empathetic gaze can really be powerful. Step six is about holding the silence. Because when I train corporate leaders in boardrooms or people who are involved in conflict in conflict strewn countries, they always mention silence as the hardest thing to use when they practice deep listening because it feels awkward. They feel that it's there to intimidate. They have all the negative connotations about about silence. The type of silence that you practice as a Deep listener is much more empathetic. It's warm, it's open. It takes time to get used to. So start with small amounts, maybe three or five seconds after the person has finished speaking. And then you can really have the space for them to perhaps think deeper thoughts, but certainly for yourself to make sense of what they've said. And this is critical for step two. Step seven, reflect back. Now, you might have been on active listening courses where you learn, reflect back, paraphrase, use the same words, nod a lot and go, mm, mm. Yeah, yeah, I get it. Mm, mm. I understand that is not the reflection of deep listening. When you reflect back with deep listening, and that's why you need that sense making silence, you use the whole of you to listen to the whole of them. So you are focused not just on their words, but the notes between the words and what's left unsaid to sum up both in small segments, but also the sort of meta understanding of what your speaker truly means. And you offer it back with humility for them to say, it's not that, it's this. And through that iterative process, they understand themselves more fully, you understand them, and you feel more connected. And you can even go into step eight, the deeper narrative, depending upon your relationship and how much trust is built up to understand their deeper narrative, to think more about their values, their motivations. And I should say, because deep listening establishes trust so quickly, speakers can share more than they might have intended. And so as a deep listener, there's ethical issues you need to be aware of. Are, has the speaker shared something, perhaps that they didn't intend to, perhaps check in with them? Are you sure you meant to share that and keep it confidential? Unless they want it to be shared more widely. And there's also something around your obligations towards yourself. Is your speaker sharing more than you are ready to bear? In which case you need to keep safe and keep your boundaries and say, I really want to listen to you, but what you're saying, I'm really feeling it. And I think perhaps that somebody else might be better placed to hear your difficult thoughts because they sound like they really need to be heard.
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Melina Palmer
That's really great phrasing. I appreciate that, and thank you for walking through all eight of those steps. I resonated with all of them so much, and the. The other quote I had written down that I wanted to make sure to mention through the conversation as we went here today was the. That silence is the absence of words, not communication, knowing, as you said, that, you know, silence can be one that's difficult for people, but is so important. That really stuck with me to.
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Emily Kasriel
Should we try a deep listening demonstration?
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready.
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Emily Kasriel
Okay. So I'm going to ask you, Melina, what food reminds you of home?
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Melina Palmer
Hmm. I'm going to say.
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Mashed potatoes.
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I was debating between. Now I see how that silence did a thing there. Right. So I was also thinking about oatmeal raisin cookies being one that is a very. One that reminds me of. Of home a lot as well. So, yeah, those were two that came up for me. And I guess too, this is having to do with, like, childhood memories for those ones where I would say, like with home today and the memories that we make with our kids, I would say are different that here it would be. I make pizza from scratch most every week and get to make that for the kids. And so I'd say that that would be one that reminds me of our home.
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Emily Kasriel
So I get a sense from you, Melina, that you smiled as you talked about these oatmeal cookies and this mashed potato, and it brought you. You back to a time of joy. And then also you're proud of making these pizzas from scratch with your own family. And both of this idea that your home has moved, has gone on a journey with you as you've become an adult. So you now have this new home. Is that right?
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, I would say that. And I've always been a baker, and so I've always enjoyed that and being able to make, you know, at the holidays, I would always get to bake different cookies. And I also do our, you know, make all the birthday cakes. And even from a young age, I would make my own cake. And people think that's weird. And my daughter was just asking me if I ever feel like, upset that I have to make my own cake or something. But it's like, it's not that I have to make my own cake. I get to try something new and. And to do something with that. But, yeah, the mashed potatoes. So for every holiday, even from when I was, I think, eight or nine years old, I was the one mixing up the potatoes and doing that. And still to this day, we kind of joke that my mom, you know, she can boil the potatoes and do the stuff, but she can't mash them without them turning into glue. So it was always my job to bring the potatoes together.
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Emily Kasriel
And so I'm having a sense that from quite a young age you assumed quite a lot of agency. And it's not that you felt the absence of your mother's love, that she didn't want to do it, but you wanted to take control. You wanted to sort of have this outlet for your creativity, whether it was mashing potatoes and knowing you could do it better than your mom or even baking your own birthday cake, not as a sign, as I said, of not being loved, but a kind of an opportunity for you to try out something really special. And this has continued into your life as an adult and as a mother in your own family. And you're really proud of this aspect of yourself, Is that right?
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Melina Palmer
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's definitely more in the empowering side of being able to do it right and to be able to try a new recipe. And I am definitely a person who, you know, whether it's the, like, nurturing side of making and presenting, I made this for us all to enjoy together. I think there's a lot that comes together from baked goods and. And different things that you get to consume together. And I think there's a good, like, experience and story with it. And I definitely can admit that I like when people say how delicious something is, and you get the praise of that. And from, you know, young age, like you said, creatively, whether I would start to mix in a different, like, spice or try something a little bit different, or learning about how you would whip the eggs separate so for the whites, you know, so that's going to have more rise or something in that. So, yeah, I think. Think it's definitely fun to be creative. And I will even just say show off a little bit, perhaps.
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Emily Kasriel
So creativity and showing off, roughly. Melina, in that conversation, how many questions did I ask you?
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Melina Palmer
4?
- [36:14]
Emily Kasriel
5 was actually just one. What food reminds you of home? If I asked you questions, which I thought I was brilliant at as a journalist, I would have found, you know, wanted to know. Mashed potatoes, that's a kind of what, what, what recipe. That's an unusual thing as a kind of, you know, that was special to your home or, you know, there were so many questions I could have asked, but I didn't. I just authentically tried to embody those eight steps, even on a virtual course, even though we've both got plants behind us, so maybe that makes us feel more relaxed with nature. But trying to embody that, to capture what you said and what you. You didn't say. And because I let you run the conversation, I found out so much more about you. And I was thinking, you know, in my mind, I was thinking I love to bake bread. I can't do cakes because I can't do recipes. But I love. I've got crazy bread being baked downstairs now for friends. We're going to tonight and but if, if I had said that and had come into that we. What we had done is I would have moved the spotlight from you to me and I would stop listening and instead giving you space to unpack your thoughts. Did you feel that you had any different insights from that, from that conversation?
- [37:35]
Melina Palmer
What I thought was interesting is like you said just something as simple as being able to know that the. Because of the way that I said that I made my own birthday cakes or whatever and. But you could tell that I felt I was proud of the baking and, and that it was something about the being entrusted with it versus like oh, and I always had to make the mashed potatoes and it was my job to do birthday cakes even my own. Right. I could have said all the same words in a slightly different way and it would have been different interpretation of it. And that's where you know, if you read the. A transcript even, right. Like that's where you lose so much in a transcript in the. The tone or where they were looking or if there was a pause or you know, something that doesn't get captured and is it a reflective pause? Is it a frustrated pause? Like there's so much that can be happening there. And so I was surprised when you said that in the non question question as you know we're having that. That you were able to pick up on it from the conversation because it just doesn't feel like it came through necessarily. But it's like cool that that I guess was emulating from how I answered the question.
- [38:51]
Emily Kasriel
Yeah, you're quite right. In the research evidences that tone of voice is so important. Obviously the content of your words. Super important. They had some research which was discredited. I write about in my book where they said that, you know, the verbal was only 7%. That is not true. Obviously the content is super important. But oh of gestures, of facial expression and then tone of voice. Tone of voice by far the most significant really helping you understand what's going on. And you're quite right also to highlight pauses because sometimes when people trail off after they've said something, you might think they're not interested but actually that's because they're wrestling with a new thought. And that's what's so precious about deep listening to someone I know as an executive coach when I'm talking and listening to somebody, they'll go silent, they'll trail off, and then often their eyes will go top right and they'll go on this journey. And because I am looking at them, they will come back with so much richer gatherings which are new, which they haven't thought of before. And that is ultimately what's so exciting about deep listening, that you invite people to imagine new worlds, new possibilities.
- [40:07]
Melina Palmer
Definitely. Well, I think that is, is fantastic. And so as we go to close out the conversation, I could deep listen and have good conversations with you for a very long time. But as we consider, I'm going to give you, I like to have kind of choose your own adventure as we move into end of the show here.
- [40:27]
So one would be, as you think.
- [40:28]
About this, applying into business, specifically, like, what sort of you talk about doing executive coaching, like, how does this help leaders, people on teams who go that route. The other side being if you were to just say, you know, if there's one thing people are going to get from the book, you know, what your kind of hopes are moving forward, what might that be? There's always option C of if you don't want to talk about either of those things and you have something else you want to say, the floor is yours.
- [40:54]
Emily Kasriel
Thank you. Well, in a work context, we often listen because it's expected of us, especially if we are a leader. We're pantomime the act of listening while we're preloading our verbal gun with ammunition ready to fire or to provide a solution or to cheer someone up. But we treat the speaker most often as a resource, someone to extract value from them. And I think when we really deep listen in a work context, especially when we're the boss, we can really impact not only the mental health of the people in our team, but their efficiency, their loyalty, their desire to feel like we're in it together because they will feel valued. And at work, it is so important to feel valued. We all know you don't leave a company, you leave a boss. And so enabling the people in your team to feel that their contributions matter, and it doesn't mean you need to necessarily do what they want, but just that you're taking the time. And some people, particularly in a business context, when I'm training people in the boardroom about deep listening and they say to me, we just don't have the time. And of course you can't really listen very deeply to every conversation, but even when you only have five minutes, you can give your full attention. You can reflect back what the person really means. So to check in with them that you've got it right and they feel you get them or they have the opportunity to raise an issue or a concern or a brilliant idea which otherwise would remain hidden. So I feel that in the work context, people in power, especially research rich evidences that when people in power listen, it's even more impactful. And that can feel so exciting. I think leaders at work or everybody at work, can really change the lives of the colleagues and the people around them and even showcase what deep listening is so that it can cascade and ripple out to more people in the organization. And to me, that feels hugely impactful.
- [43:02]
Melina Palmer
Oh, definitely. Thank you for that. And I'm sure everyone listening, you know, here today is thinking about a time where they wish someone would have listened more and can also think of a time that they maybe should have listened a little bit more or a little bit differently. And knowing that, you know, there's power in those silences, we can get curious. We make sure we're ready to hear whatever is being communicated. We're making that space, you know, being patient and open. So many great steps in the eight steps that you have, which I did not, not accurately summarize there, but I will in the outro as we go back through this. So for everyone now who is so excited to go get their copy of Deep Listening and to follow you or connect or any of that, you know, what's their best path to go do.
- [43:48]
Emily Kasriel
That, if they want to read more in depth or listen. In fact, I also recorded the audiobook so they can listen to that. It's Deep Listening transform your relationships with family, friends and phones. That's fantastic. You can also find out more on my website, emilycasriel.com or follow me on LinkedIn. And I very much want to hear your stories about if and when you've tried Deep Listening and what the impact has been because we can only learn by trying. If you were to read the whole book and do nothing, that would be as if you hadn't read the book. The idea is to practice this out in the Wild Child.
- [44:27]
Melina Palmer
Absolutely. And we will of course have links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone so that they can get their copy of the book and go check it out and follow you and, and all the things and you know, pick one of these things that they'll go try today maybe. And I think like we're saying that silence being the easiest one and I'm guessing as people were listening and I said, like, I can I feel the silence silence that you are putting in here. And I know what we're doing in a way that that's really good. So, yeah, adding in some silence, having some opportunity to get curious. Love it. So thank you again, Emily, for joining me on the show. It was delightful to chat with you.
- [45:06]
Emily Kasriel
Here today and thank you so much, Melina, and so fantastic that you've actually read the book. I really appreciate that.
- [45:13]
Melina Palmer
Yes. Happy to.
- [45:15]
Emily Kasriel
Brilliant. Thank you. And thank you for listening.
- [45:18]
Melina Palmer
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Thank you again to Emily Kazriel for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, it was the reminder that deep listening is something we can all begin to practice right away. As you heard in the live moment when she listened to me about a food that reminds me of home as well as in her story about the woman in the pharmacy, it doesn't always have to be a major planned out conversation to make a difference. Deep listening can happen in a moment and with one thoughtful question and a lot of silent restraint.
- [45:52]
And while there is of course value.
- [45:54]
In taking time for structured learning like Emily's workshops and coaching, it's encouraging to know that we can start practicing these steps in small, low stakes situations where the cost of getting it a little wrong is low, but the habit building potential is high. Over time, those little choices compound and can fundamentally shift how we connect with.
- [46:16]
Others and how they connect with us and others, hopefully creating those positive ripples.
- [46:21]
We love so much.
- [46:23]
Before we close out the show, I.
- [46:24]
Want to take a quick moment to list out the eight steps of deep listening that Emily shared today and that are central chapters of the book. If you want to take notes, this is your moment. So step one is to create space, remove distractions, make room for the conversation. Two is to listen to yourself first. Notice your own internal chatter so you can quiet it. Three is be present, give the other person your full focused attention. 4 is one of my favorites. Be curious, ask questions without judgment and wonder about their world. Five is hold the gate. Maintain that soft gaze with intentional eye contact. 6 Hold the silence. Let meaning emerge in the pause. Don't rush to respond. STEP 7 Reflect back. Share what you heard and show you understand without sounding like a parrot. And finally, step eight is to go deeper. Invite more by asking thoughtful open ended questions. Now, which of those eight steps steps stood out to you most or which one do you want to start with today? Even if it's something as small as pausing a second or two longer before jumping in? In that next conversation, come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books including of course deep listening, ways to get in touch and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 527. And thank you again to Emily Kasriel for joining me on the show today.
- [48:09]
It was a delight to chat with.
- [48:11]
And learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [48:17]
It's going to be a lot of.
- [48:18]
Fun, you don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
- [48:31]
Podcast Narrator
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources visit thebrainybusiness.com.