← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
530. Building Authentic Brands
00:48:22
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes back Dr. Tessa Misiaszek, co-author of the insightful book, Branding That Means Business. This refreshed conversation dives deep into the importance of aligning internal culture...
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- [00:00]
Melina Palmer
Welcome to episode 530 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to bring back a powerful conversation with Dr. Tessa Mishazak. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:20]
Podcast Narrator
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:35]
Melina Palmer
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Have you ever worked at a place where the values on the wall didn't match what happened in the halls? If so, you're not alone. We talk a lot about values in business. Posting them, marketing them, sharing them on company websites. But what does it really mean to have a values based brand? And how do leaders build that kind of alignment between intern culture and external promise? That's what today's conversation is all about. This refreshed episode, which originally aired in 2022, is a replay of my conversation with Dr. Tessa Mishazek, co author of Branding that Means Business. At the time, she was the head of research at Korn Ferry Institute. And while she's recently stepped into a new chapter professionally, more on that soon. I'm sure the insights she shares here are timeless and more relevant than ever. So why bring back this episode now? Because in just a couple days, I'm going to be joined by Sebastian Page to talk about his new book, the Psychology of Leadership. And when we were recording that episode, I found myself thinking again and again about this conversation with Tessa. Her lens on culture, authenticity and trust is a powerful foundation for what makes leadership effective in today's complex world. If you aren't yet subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, subscribe now is a great time to do so to ensure you don't miss that or any other episode really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 530. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Tessa Mishazek, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [02:30]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
- [02:32]
Melina Palmer
Oh absolutely. I am so, so delighted. And we're going to be chatting just a few weeks after your co author's second episode on the podcast, Matt Johnson comes out. I would love if you can tell everyone a little bit about your background, there's maybe a little bit in the book that people will already know. We're going to talk about a different angle about, like we've already said in kind of our pre call, but if you can share a little bit about you and the work that you do to kick us off, that'd be great.
- [03:01]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Sure. So I actually currently am the head of research for the Korn Ferry Institute. Korn Ferry is a very large executive search and talent management consulting business that is worldwide and has. I think we have about 13,000 employees now globally. So quite a big organization. But I haven't always been in the corporate world. I actually recently transitioned back to corporate. Prior to that, I was actually a marketing professor serving at Halt International Business School for the past few years. And then prior to that have actually had quite the entrepreneurial experience having run three different startups, always doing work in this space around communications, organizational culture, building human capital, strategies for organizations. And then as I moved into academia, actually started to have more of a focus looking at marketing and then was able to really prioritize my research around looking at the intersection between organizational culture and the marketing function. And how do you leverage employee engagement and culture in order to build an authentic brand? So that's what brings us here today.
- [04:18]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. And so I'm. Did you know Matt before you started teaching at Holt or.
- [04:24]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
I did not. I actually met. Met Matt. Gosh. I think the first time I met him, although I think he would have the same story, was we were in England at Ashridge, the castle outside of London that's part of Halt International Business School. And we started talking about empathy. And I had been the CEO for an empathy training company called Empathetics that was founded by a neuroscientist out of Mass General. And we actually got into quite a debate about empathy. And that's, that's where we first met, but then decided to start working together. So we have really complimentary skill sets and research interests. So thought it would be fun to venture on a book together.
- [05:05]
Melina Palmer
Okay. Well, you know, you have to at least give some insight into this debate. Right. So share a little bit about the empathy conversation. Cause I, I would guess that a lot of people listening, you kind of have empathy. Is empathy, right? Like we empathize or we don't. That must be just something. And you kind of look at is it good or bad to empathize. May. So of course, I'm sure you're looking at this at a much deeper level. Can you share a little bit about that.
- [05:32]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah. So it was interesting, the context of the work I had done with empathy, again working with a neuroscientist, her name was Helen Reese out of Mass General Hospital. She had looked at the impact of empathic communication between providers, doctors and nurses and their patients. And what. How did that impact clinical health outcomes? Of course, out of that comes all sorts of really cool research as it relates to other aspects, such as does it empathy help with burnout? And does empathy help with building trust between the provider and the patient so that you actually perhaps could lower your rates of medical malpractice and so forth. So it was a very positive look at empathy and the impact and its benefits. And the debate with Matt was, does empathy have a scaling issue? And can you have. Can empathy deplete you as a person? Because if you give too much, you get burnt out. And so we used to have these debates around, well, you have to have some self empathy first. Develop those, the four quadrants of emotional intelligence and really pay attention to have self awareness before you can actually give empathy. So those were the very exciting conversations we had with empathy while, you know, drinking wine in England. So that's what kicked off our friendship.
- [07:03]
Melina Palmer
Sounds like a dream to me. Well, and I was actually gonna make the point where what I thought you were getting to was kind of the angle that Matt was coming from, where it's empathizing too much could be depleting to where you then totally forget about your own self and you've given too much and then that can lead to burnout. But like you're saying, then if you completely stop empathizing and become more robotic to not feel what's going on with your patients, like working in oncology unit or, or whatever, that you get too much and you feel like you can't do anything, then that's not helpful, you know, for anybody either. So, yeah, interesting balance.
- [07:42]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
So absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
- [07:46]
Melina Palmer
So I always love to ask everyone who has written a book, because I know there are lots of people that listen to this show that either have written books or aspire to write them. And even just for any sort of content, which everyone is a content manager these days, you can't be in business and not be creating lots of content. So what sort of tips do you have in writing a book? What was that process like for you, especially with a co author? I am just working on a single article with a co author and I was realizing I've never really co authored anything and it's so strange for me so I'm very intrigued about that process.
- [08:28]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yes. Well, I always say having. I used to tell my students this, that if you go into business or create a startup with a partner, that you have to realize it's like a marriage, and if it goes bad, it can go really bad, like a bad divorce. So you want to make sure that you have that right partner from the outset, that you're really, you know, creating with and creating value. I think for both Matt and I, we had the same intention that we really wanted to do, say something different about brand strategy in the world of branding and really come at it with a new lens that would add value to marketers who are examining this or even for consumers or anyone interested in learning more about brand strategy, especially in today's environment. So I think having that kind of common purpose and that value system around, having that intention to add value helps you get through some of the challenges. But I think the other thing is we had really distinct ways that we were approaching the book. So he had a social psychology lens. I was coming at it with more of a marketing function type lens. And together, I think we created a pretty unique approach to building brand strategies. So that helped us as well. But we also did this over the course of the pandemic. And so, honestly, I don't. I know you write lots of books. I don't know how you do it with young children and working. But I, you know, we had. I had lots of time at home and lots of weekends of writing. And, you know, the pandemic kind of gave us that opportunity, which I guess was a gift from that perspective to get that. To get the writing done. But it definitely took a lot more iterations than I thought. As far as, you know, we, gosh, we probably rewrote the same chapter three or four times to kind of get it right and to feel really good about what's our messaging moving forward.
- [10:33]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, well, I was telling Matt, you know, so he co authored Blindsight with Prince, who's also been on the show. And I'm going to be, you know, linking to lots of episodes in the show, notes for everyone listening here, but then co authoring with you. It was interesting to have read them both and to see that there's a common feel to the language and yet it's a little bit different and it's hard to kind of pinpoint anything within it. But it's got really useful stories that help carry you along, but they don't drag on, which is really nice. And I don't know how you Manage to make it sound like one person. But you did a really great job in that process to where I almost don't even know which questions to ask because I was saying, you know, I don't know what, Kate, what's from Matt's side, what's from your side? I don't know. But we're going to talk today more about the internal function of marketing, branding and culture, which is something that I care a lot about. So people who are not in the marketing function or who are maybe in a marketing function, but in an organization that doesn't think culture belongs to marketing or within marketing at all, and maybe doesn't value that marketing voice, what are your thoughts on that and how important marketing is to an organization?
- [11:59]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Sure, It's. Well, first of all, if you think about the definition of marketing, what is the function of marketing? It is value creation. And you really think about what are the levers you can pull to create value for the customer. And so at the most basic form, when you think about how do you create value, you think about what are those levers? It's your product, your service that you're developing. And then, of course, how do you price it, how are you promoting it and how are you distributing it? That's kind of the core function of what marketing is. And how do you create value and have that value realized for the consumer? What's interesting about, you know, as a. As an entrepreneur myself, and as someone who taught entrepreneurship for the past 10, 12 years at the collegiate level, it's interesting because I think a lot of people are quick to jump to sales and they kind of think about marketing later or marketing comes, you know, when it. When they're thinking about when they have more venture capital and they can spend more money and so forth. So there's not that real strategic perspective on what is marketing, and then how will that help me sell and how do I differentiate the two? And then, of course, enter social media. And everyone is quick to say, okay, well, I, I gotta get on social media. But again, that that's marketing. But you have to take a similar lens to your. Your presence on social media and really thinking, okay, not just how do I kind of get messages out there and post to the masses, but how am I creating value through that, through that media channel? How am I positioning my product? How am I adding value to what it is that I can communicate with my consumers and so forth. So when we think about brand in particular, and, you know, should brand be a strong consideration at the outset of a company and well, what If I have 100-year-old brand and it's, you know, it seems pretty set in stone. Do I really have to think about brand anymore? There's a few pieces that I think matter here. First of all, understanding that brand is not marketing, that brand is an asset to your marketing strategy. Right? So you, you have the strategy for how you're going to create value for the customer. And brand is a piece of that, a very important piece of that, but it's a piece of being able to say something, position the product and to add value through your brand messaging, your brand identifiers, the way that you talk about your brand. And you know, for companies that have really well established brands, you know, we're in a new day. And as someone with an 18 year old and a 15 year old, you know, this next generation of consumers is very, they're very different as it pertains to not just the fact that they're our first post digital generation or digital natives, where they've never known a world without social media or iPhones or smartphones, but that they really think about their purchases from the perspective of values and purpose and that the brand is what they're looking to, because it's really an extension of their own personal brand, that they're making those consumer decisions based on what they want to tell the world about themselves. And that there has to be alignment with the consumer based on those values and that purpose. And so even for well established brands that you might be appealing to a younger generation of consumers, it's important to think about, okay, what is our strategy moving forward and how can we be more authentic in the way that we represent how we do business, what our value systems are, how we treat our employees and so forth. So, you know, I hope that answered your question, but it's, it's. The marketing function is, is important to that, but brand is, is certainly a strong asset to make your marketing strategy successful.
- [15:57]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, and so my original, my undergrad's in marketing and I worked in brand strategy and, and whatnot for before getting my master's in behavioral economics and going down that route. So the marketing piece is still very central to me. And it is just, you know, who you are. You don't just get to say something these days like you're saying with social media, it's not unheard of for a brand to get canceled if they were to be treating employees in a way that's out of integrity with what they're saying they're about or what they care about in the world and what they represent. That authenticity needs to really tie through everything. And yes, the outward messaging of what you're saying to customers matters, but you need to be living who you are really authentically throughout the entire brand, including the hiring process and how you talk about things on LinkedIn. And everything really just needs to be consistent. And if you don't have that central touchstone from what the brand is, who we're about, then it's just going to be a mess.
- [17:06]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of examples in just the last two to three years of companies who, you know, they're trying to connect, they're trying to leverage social media to say something about themselves, they're trying to jump on the bandwagon of sustainability or the environment and climate change. They're wanting to say something about gender, pay equity, they're wanting to say something about Black Lives Matter. But you know, what we're seeing from these digital natives, this younger generation of consumers who are incredibly digital savvy, is that they know how to skirt around the curtain of information asymmetry, and they can quickly look in and call out companies who are not living their values, their brand promise. And in doing that, a lot of brands and companies have been called out for saying, wait a minute, you can't hashtag BLM if you don't have any racial or ethnic minorities on your board. You can't talk about gender pay equity if you don't have any women in your executive suite, you know, or these are the actual statistics. Not to mention that there's a number of new apps and sites that are connecting communities of employees together that, you know, people are going online anonymously or not, and saying, hey, listen, this is, this is what's happening at my company. And they're really having a voice and sharing their own experiences. And so for companies, the antidote to that kind of challenge you have as to, am I going to go viral for an event or are one of my employees going to call me out, or will I be found out if I haven't done this is just to be transparent and just to say we're doing the work, this is our goal and this is our journey and our process to get there. Both Matt and I found in our research for the book is that at the end of the day, it's the transparency that builds trust. And once consumers have trust that you're doing what you say you do, even if you're on a journey to get there, they're more likely to, to be loyal and forgiving. If if you happen to as a company, you know, not being pure and in what it is that you're espousing.
- [19:25]
Melina Palmer
So yeah, once you get essentially what I hear in that is. So in my first book, I talk about how brands and why they matter in the beginning. And in saying, you know, if you go on a blind date with someone, you are filtering out, like looking for like, this person's a hero or a zero and even the smallest thing, you know, that example I use is like they slurp their soup in a weird way. And someone who would have been a 10 is totally out because that weird slurp because you go, oh man, I can't live with that for the rest of my life. Whereas if my husband was to slurp his soup in a weird way tonight, not gonna be like, well, we're done, I'm out. Right? So when we have a brand that we really love, that's one of our favorites that we identify with, like you were saying, that's part of who we are. We're more willing to forgive. They're part of team us, you know, as far as we adopt. And I've been talking about these sorts of things quite a bit on the show recently with my new book, well, I guess, which will have just come out when we're taught when this airs. Oh, how exciting. So we'll have that, you know, a lot of these things linked in the show notes, some of the quotes, you know, I wrote down some things while I was reading and have to hold back because I wanted to make lots and lots of notes and things to ask about. But you have a piece in here saying, so consumers are humans who buy stuff they want and need. Brands matter when and only when they matter to humans. And another related quote there saying, why bother creating a brand at all, much less a meaningful one? Products can be copied. A strong brand provides stability in the face of transience. So like I said, the outward side of a brand is pretty intuitive in a lot of ways. And like I said, we talked with Matt about that. But how does a company go about having that authenticity, choosing what their brand is going to be based on? Is there a, a point where you say, you should always start here, so we'll say you there's an established company that is looking to update and make its brand stand for something. We won't say they're like in the hundred year realm, but something that's been around for a little bit. Where do you suggest they start in creating a more authentic brand?
- [21:47]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Sure. So I think it is a collaboration that happens between the founders of the company or those leading the company and the customers. I think that moving forward, the more that you can collaborate with the customers and really understanding what their value systems are, what their needs are, to quote Clayton Christensen, what job does the does the product or the service do for them and how is it adding value to their lives? The greater understanding that executives or leaders or chief marketing officers can have of that consumer experience. And getting back to that empathy word, the more empathy you can have for the way that your consumers live their lives and think about how your product or service is integrated into the way they live their lives, then that will allow you to build a more authentic brand, more connected to them and really help lead you in determining what is that purpose and what are those values. Now it's this kind of chicken in this egg conversation, what comes first, the brand purpose and values or the consumer's purpose and values? And if you haven't done this exercise from the outset, then I think it has to be a collaborative process, right? So if you have a year old startup and you're thinking, we don't even have company values or brand values, we haven't started, well, then get started. And it should be a collaborative process with your consumers. If you have a startup that you don't have customers yet you have a new product. What's important to understand in this product age that we're in, in the world of Amazon, where everything can be replicated, is that really at the core, especially with technology and the ability for things to be replicated and copied so quickly that it's really brand. That's the great differentiator, right? So if you look at, and that's what people want, people want to wear a brand that says something about themselves or to use a product or a service that makes them feel good about themselves because of the way that product or service was made or because of the way that company, what its values are or what they do for society or what their greater impact is. And so it's really the brand that can differentiate more than any product characteristic or attribute. Yes, we want to make widgets bigger, better, faster, and 15, 20 years ago, that was when we had smaller communities and smaller sales regions and our competitors were fewer then. You could think about that differentiation based on a product's characteristics. But today, in a global market, with the Internet, with huge platforms like Amazon, who can really replicate your product tomorrow? Right. Then it's about, okay, well what can make my product or service stand out? How can I differentiate from the competition. How can I create something that is not easily replicable and that is through building a strong brand?
- [24:55]
Melina Palmer
Do you have some examples that come to mind where maybe it could be a super commoditized type of industry, but where people really value the brand and don't care, even when, you know, someone tried to copy them or anything else, where that brand has really carried through the value for that organization?
- [25:17]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah, I mean, there's. Our book is chock full of examples. And so I'm quickly going through the index in my mind of all the different examples. But, you know, there are certainly brands that have been so steadfast and true in their purpose and their values. Patagonia is one of them. Right. That it's always been about environment consciousness. And even though their products are really expensive and, you know, not that accessible. And so as a result, it's not a very inclusive brand. But it hasn't ever made excuses for that. And they have always been so focused on environment and doing the right thing for society. That again, I think that's one of those brands that has been very authentic in its approach to the market. Of course it was interesting. Our publisher said, don't you dare use Apple in the book as an example. But if you think about. Only because it's used over and over again, but hey, it's a fantastic brand. And not only is it authentic and so highly correlated to its founder, to Steve Jobs and the way that he kind of thought about the world and also that kind of artistic value creation that came through in his products, but it's also about creating community and being able to really think very differently. Not just about the products that they were making, but the experience that people had as associated with the brand. So walking into an Apple Store, they were one of the first who eliminated the barriers of being able to access someone in customer service and that you could go to a genius bar to get help with the product and the computer. And that was incredibly intuitive to the point where you can just plug it in and it immediately starts working. That you don't have to have a degree in computer science to get it going, really just empathizing with the customer. Steve Jobs did this amazing job about building a product and a service and a brand that you know, everyone, if you think about the word Apple, you probably don't think of the fruit anymore. You immediately think about the computer and what does that mean to the customer as far as the intuitiveness, the design, the creativity piece, the access to information and so forth. And so that's when we talk about that quote that you read from the book around brands having meaning, but they only have meaning if they're meaningful to a customer. It's really about, again, through that collaborative process, understanding how that brand's going to resonate with the customer. And then how do you continuously reinforce that level of experience with the customer?
- [27:54]
Melina Palmer
For sure. And so since I'm sure it's a piece of science, perhaps that maybe isn't in the book. I can't remember specifically if it's mentioned in it because it's one I've seen a lot. Right. But is when people were shown the Apple logo versus the IBM IBM logo for just, you know, a fraction of a second, didn't realize it, and then were asked to do a task. Those who saw the Apple logo were more innovative and creative in the process and the project they were working on than those that saw that IBM logo. And that's where you think that is a brand Apple, like you said that up and down, side to side, people think innovation and creativity and intuitiveness and enough that the flash of a logo, it means something to you. And you don't necessarily have that from a lot of other brands. So you have to really live and breathe who you are for that to be so quick that your little tiny image means something. So for a company that's trying to build out culture for their, their brand, do you have any recommendations of picking, you know, what your culture is going to stand for? I would assume people, as with so many other things, we have trouble limiting to a certain number. So they want to be everything to everybody. So if you have tips maybe about narrowing down a focus and how to maybe pick what matters, do you have any thoughts on that?
- [29:19]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Absolutely. Well, first of all, as a brand, you can't be all things to all people. So don't try to be understand. And again, this is part of the differentiation process. I mean, at the end of the day, these businesses, whether they're nonprofit or for profit, still are trying to generate revenue. And understanding the competitive landscape and understanding, you know, ways in which you can differentiate, including on brand, is important to think about at the very outset. And then we talk a lot about purpose and values. So from a purpose perspective, we actually give the stepwise process around finding purpose and really getting to that why we exist, you know, what is our impact on the world? What's that kind of higher piece that allows us to operate as a company. And from an employee perspective, if you think, you know, companies are only as good as the people who run them and Being able to really connect that purpose to the employee organization. The culture that you develop within the company is very important to have well defined so that it's not just words or a mission statement on a website, but that it's actually operationalized and felt throughout the company. And then when you look at value systems and what values are going to help you with your business decision making so that you can reach that purpose and really develop a business strategy that is not only profitable, but actually helps you make that societal impact or help you reach that purpose in that industry or perhaps just in your lives or in your work, that those values again have to be authentic to the organization, to the culture and to the brand. I think we quote in the book, it's like upwards of 82% of companies have trust, integrity, teamwork as their company values, which is, those are fantastic values to have. But if we all have the same values as companies, we are not going to be differentiating from each other right in the way that we do business. And if we're all doing business the same way, then what really differentiates our brand? And so being able to go through this exercise of saying based on our purpose and what really distinguishes us in the market, then what are the values that are going to help us get there? How do we actually think about the types of business decisions and how we want to make those decisions through our value systems in order to help us get there? And what's unique about our organization and our culture that we want to develop so that we can have those be guiding principles to help us garner or create that type of culture. And so developing those values is an important part of that exercise. And then from there it's building infrastructure. Everyone thinks, okay, I got the mission and the values on the website. We're all set now. Nope, that's just the beginning. Now you've got to think about what's the infrastructure and the operation and you know, your entire talent management strategy from that point forward should be guided by those values. The type of people that you're hiring into the organization, the type of environment in which they're working, and then of course, how do you retain them and also how do you guide them in the rest of their career. All of that is connected to purpose and values.
- [32:38]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, definitely. When you were talking, I was thinking of a brand that I'm sure has come up either in your teaching or as you're working on the book, which is Zappos. As far as a brand that I think, and we don't want to say it's the first, but the first that really publicly lived their values in a way that no one else did, where everyone would know all 10 at any given point, and you were bringing them up. I don't know if you've ever. Have you done the tour at Zappos? Have you been able to go do that?
- [33:12]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
I haven't done the tour. Is it in Las Vegas?
- [33:15]
Melina Palmer
Yes, it is.
- [33:16]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yes. I'm actually headed to Vegas in September, so maybe I'll put that on my list.
- [33:20]
Melina Palmer
Yeah, I've done it before as part of a marketing conference that I was attending actually, years ago. It's really cool and interesting to be able to go and tour. And with your background, I'm sure you would. Would love that. If they're doing tours right now, worth it.
- [33:35]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah.
- [33:37]
Melina Palmer
But when you think about Zappos and values, I'll just let. We'll say here is like, do you have thoughts on Zappos more and what other companies can learn from that?
- [33:46]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah. So it's interesting. I entered into entrepreneurship in 2004, and I would say it was, gosh, it must have been 2009, 2010. You know, I was kind of in the thick of it. We were trying to shop out the company. I was partnered with three physicians. And that's when I actually learned about Zappos for the first time. And Tony Hsieh and the way he thought about his company, really, again, it was that intersection between really thinking strongly about culture and how to build a culture that really engages the employees and then to be able to deliver on that and have that really drive everything about the company, its business decision making, its marketing function, its customer service elements. And I think if I remember, the purpose of Zappos was to. To deliver happiness. Right. So that's the overarching purpose, which is to deliver happiness. And then all their different cultures, I think it was like, be wacky or whatever. The different values that they had were all around. How do you make decisions based on those values? To deliver happiness to people. And shoes was just the catalyst to do that. Right. So when people, yes, I love shoes, and I'd love to work for a shoe company someday, but I also love to deliver happiness. And that's something that really, I think people connect to when they're developing culture. And when you're thinking about organizational culture, it's certainly, I think, something that it gives more meaning to people's lives. If you can actually, as a company, say that's what your purpose is for.
- [35:27]
Melina Palmer
Sure. Well, and so, yeah, Tony's book is Delivering Happiness, which is a great book. I'll link to it in the show Notes for everybody if you haven't read it yet. I felt compelled now to look it up as some inspiration for core values. It was very easy to find and as something here they have an oath of employment as well, which you can read and download. As far as that transparency piece again, so their 10 core values are deliver wow through service, embrace and drive change. Create fun and a little weirdness like you were saying, that kind of wacky side. Be adventurous, creative and open minded. Pursue growth and learning. Build open and honest relationships with communication. Build a positive team and family spirit. Do more with less. Be passionate and determined. And 10 is to be humble. So I mean all good stuff and I think showing a way that I don't know that for most companies we would Recommend Starting with 10. 10's a lot of things to try to if you're just jumping in.
- [36:29]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah. I tell startups to start with five. Five is, you know, you can always build as you grow. But I think it's, it's to come up with five very unique, authentic values that resonate within the industry that you're in that will resonate with your employees, that connect to your consumers. It's a good number to start with.
- [36:49]
Melina Palmer
Yeah. Oh, and that authentic piece reminds me the other thing I was thinking while you were talking is so like you said, the 82% or whatever that have trust and whatnot. I know a lot to have a lot of background working with financial services so banking and credit unions and everybody says that they one of their values and I don't have a stat. I feel like it's higher than 80% that have part of their values being that they have the best service, that they differentiate on their service. But if every, if everyone says that, you know, it kind of gets to the. I love the Carrie Fisher quote from When Harry Met Sally. Like everyone thinks they have a great sense of humor but not everybody can have a great personality and sense of humor. Right. So it's the same if we all say we have the best service, then nobody has the best service unless you're really, really living that. And so whether it's trust or service, it's not enough to just say it. You have to show it to where people can just say you're about this in the same way that they do with Apple is about innovation or intuitiveness or beautiful design things that everybody says. And you don't have to just keep saying it or say, oh no, it's on our Website. And if your employees don't know what your values are, just off the bat, where, like I was saying, 10 is a lot. But every employee of Zappos, at least back in the day, would know all 10 immediately, no questions asked. And you could say, what's number eight? And they would have it right. They know what those are because they really live them. So whatever it is you're going to pick, make sure it's something that your employees can live and embrace. And I would love for you to expand on that if you have thoughts.
- [38:32]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
No, absolutely. And I think your example about financial services and the service component is so important because again, if it's an authentic value to the organization, it drives your business decision making, then one of your pillars of innovation should probably be service. And that's getting redefined over and over as we move to this digital transformation. Whereas great customer service is walking into a bank and being greeted with a smile, today great customer service and financial services is making sure you have an app that is seamless, that if you, for my college student, that's safe, but that mom and dad can transfer money into, that he has immediate access to emergency funds, that it's well protected, that there's great security. I. It's completely redefined. But those companies who do have service at the, at the core of one of those values are continuously innovating based on that because that's what they want to be known for. And you have to think that it's going to change. The meaning of service is going to change over time in every industry, especially as we move into a much more digitalized space. I had the experience just two weeks ago. I was in New York City and I went to a hotel, to the Hyatt Hotel in Grand Central. And you know, this is the hospitality industry, which is all about people. And when I was in college, I had friends who were HRTA majors in hospitality, and it was all about customer service. I walked into that hotel, it checked me in on an app. I went to a kiosk, I got my key, I went up to my room, I checked out on it. I never talked to a human being. And it was a fantastic experience. Experience, right. It was seamless. I had access to everything. I had no lines. I had anything I needed access or help with I could do through the app. And I had to instant someone at my door. It's been redefined. So again, it's not just words on a board. And if you created these values 10, 15 years ago, you have to think about how these values will evolve over time. And then, you know, to stay true to that as part of your core identity as a company, you have to continuously innovate based on those values. So I think that's, that one's a good example.
- [40:50]
Melina Palmer
Oh yeah, and I love what you were saying there. As the other thing is in general, and I say to people all the time, you know, and I'm by no means the first person to say this, but in that you are not your ideal customer, you're not selling to you and the thing that you want is not what the people on the other side want or need that you're so far in to what it is, what it was, what you've been about. And especially if you have, you know, you know, people that were innovative, you know, 30 years ago when they created an organization and now they've kind of forgotten what, what's cool for the, for the new kids these days, you know, that idea of service and people wanting to interact with people, you can't will them to do it. And the idea of like you were saying in that hotel experience as a company, you would say, well, we want to make sure we've got the best people. And there is something like a Ritz Carlton, which is, I mean, there's no question, everyone knows Ritz Carlton is about that service and having empowered employees. And it means something for, in, in a different way, but for most of us staying at, you know, a random, I think you said a Hyatt in there or whatever else. And it's nothing by any means against that in that brand, but just random business travel, having to pop in or like you said, potentially dropping kids off at college or whatever it is where going and we want a nice experience. But my best service is to not have to talk to anyone because I just got off a plane or I just had a really long drive. I want to just be able to go to my room and sleep because, you know, that's a better service than even if the person on the other side is incredibly kind, how much better would it have been? You know, that's like taking that step back and to say, you know, what does service mean today? If we still want to deliver that and that is our value, what does that mean moving forward and to understand. I love the thesaurus. It's one of my very favorite things. So finding, you know, a word and its related words and see what that means for you as, as an organization. Do you have tips as we close this out here of how often people should look at their values and Revisiting them. We obviously don't want to do it too often, but we don't want to, you know, not look at it ever again either. Do you have a kind of guideline for that?
- [43:10]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Yeah, I mean, I think there should be an inventory at least once a year to say, are these still relevant and are we doing our best by these values? Or is there one particular value that we're tripping up on enough? And, you know, are there new values that we need to think about? Right. I mean, digital enablement might be a value that you didn't have 20 years ago, but you might need to have now. And that, that should be a focus of innovation or that should be a focus of the way people think about their work. So it's, you know, values don't need to be always warm and fuzzy and they don't, you know, always need to be, you know, profit oriented either. But I think it's about how do you want to think about your business decision making? And again, how does that connect to your purpose? And with the world changing and having a different kind of, you know, place in the world as we move forward as businesses, then these things evolve over time. So I think of, you know, doing a quick inventory of what are our values, how are we mapping against our values? Are we doing a good job? Are we innovating against them? I think is a healthy thing for our business to think about in order to maintain an authentic brand.
- [44:23]
Melina Palmer
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for all the insights. And of course, we'll be linking to branding. That means business in the show notes, so everyone can go pick up their copy if they were still on the fence or got busy and forgot after hearing Matt talk about it, definitely are ready to jump in there now and get their copy. Where else should people that are excited to interact with you and learn more, what's the best place for them to do that?
- [44:47]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Sure. Well, I mean, the best place to do that is. Is to link in with me. I'm always happy to link in. And as I mentioned, I also have. Have a. A podcast, Happy at Work podcast that they can listen to more around organizational culture and employee engagement and how to create a positive workplace environment.
- [45:09]
Melina Palmer
Perfect. Well, we will definitely be linking to your podcast to. We'll just mention LinkedIn. Oh, no, we'll link it. We link LinkedIn. We don't do email addresses because I care about your spam filter. So. But we'll have that in the show notes for everyone. So. So again, Tessa, thanks so much for joining me on the show. It was great to chat with you.
- [45:28]
Dr. Tessa Mishazak
Thank you Melina. It was great to be here.
- [45:31]
Melina Palmer
Thank you again to Dr. Tessa Mashazak for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love this reminder that branding is not just a marketing exercise, it's a leadership responsibility. A brand isn't what you say about your company, it's what your team feels when they come to work every day and what your customers experience experience when they interact with you. Alignment between those two worlds is what builds trust, loyalty and long term success. We talked about how clarity of purpose helps both employees and customers feel grounded in their decisions and that authenticity isn't about being perfect, it's about being consistent, transparent and real. This is especially true in today's market where people are more skeptical than ever and brand loyalty has to be earned. If you've read my book what your employees need and can't tell you, you know how much I believe in the connection between internal culture and external results. Tessa's insights amplify that message beautifully and they also lay the groundwork for what's coming next. In just a couple days, Sebastian Page will be joining me to talk about the psychology of leadership, where this conversation focuses on the foundation, values, purpose and authenticity. Sebastian takes it into the psychological twist tools that can help leaders influence and inspire both themselves and their teams. These ideas go hand in hand and I know you're going to get a ton out of that conversation. So how do the values of your brand show up in daily decisions? Are they real or just rhetoric? Is there a brand that you feel like absolutely shows up the way that they intend that those values really live through and through in everything they do. Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, along with links for related past episodes and books including Branding that Means Business, Ways to get in touch, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 530. Thank you again to Dr. Tessa Mishazak for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Thursday for a brand new episode where I'm going to be speaking with Sebastian Page on the Psychology of Leadership. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
- [48:05]
Podcast Narrator
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.