← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
534. Shifting Perspectives: The Science of Changing Opinions
00:45:40
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Dr. Andy Luttrell, a social psychologist specializing in attitudes and persuasion. They explore the fascinating dynamics of how opinions are formed and changed, delving into the...
Loading summary
Transcript502 lines
- [00:00]
Malina Palmer
Welcome to episode 534 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Andy Luttrell. Ready?
- [00:13]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Let's get started.
- [00:18]
Podcast Narrator
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Mal Melina Palmer.
- [00:34]
Malina Palmer
Hello.
- [00:35]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Hello, everyone.
- [00:36]
Malina Palmer
My name is Melina Palmer, and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Have you ever stopped to think about.
- [00:42]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Why you believe the things you do.
- [00:44]
Malina Palmer
Or what it really takes to change your mind or someone else's? Whether we're talking about politics, pineapple on pizza, or that brand you swear by, our opinions shape how we move through the world. That is exactly why I wanted to bring back this insightful conversation with Dr. Andy Luttrell. And as a social psychologist who specializes in attitudes and persuasion, Andy unpacks the science behind how opinions are formed, why some stick more than others, and what it takes to truly shift someone's perspective. We're revisiting this now because it ties beautifully into Thursday's episode with Laurier Mandin, author of I Need that, a book about how brands create desire and meaning in people's lives. Understanding how opinions are formed, after all, is just as important for individual growth and mindset as it is for marketing and branding. When we understand what makes an opinion feel strong or weak or deeply held versus fleeting, we can be more thoughtful in how we influence others and ourselves. As you listen today, I invite you to consider what opinions in your life feel unshakable. And why might that be? And is it serving you well? Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 534. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Andy Luttrell, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [02:23]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Happy to be here. Thanks.
- [02:24]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, super excited. So we got connected as quote, fellow psych nerds, I believe was the title from our mutual friend Kwame Christian. And he said, hey, you two gotta have a convo, right? You gotta chat. And because you're part of this greater Columbus, Ohio contingent with Brian Ahern and Kwame and many others that I have been introduced to over the years, just super excited. And like any friend of Any of them is a friend of mine. So perfect, we'll have a chat. But tell the listeners a little bit about you and what has your psych nerd dom is built upon.
- [03:09]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure, yeah.
- [03:10]
So yes, I identify as a social psychologist.
- [03:13]
I got my PhD in Social Psychology in 2016 and am currently an assistant professor of psychological science at Ball State University.
- [03:21]
And the research that I do in that world has to do with what.
- [03:24]
We call attitudes and persuasion. So I like to just easily refer to that as opinions and when they change. So our attitudes are things like our consumer attitudes, which might be of most interest to listeners.
- [03:36]
Right.
- [03:36]
Like my attitude or a product or a service or a particular person that I have some sort of ongoing relationship with.
- [03:42]
But you know, as far as I'm concerned, the basics of that apply broadly. So that stuff about attitudes and when.
- [03:49]
They change applies to our political views, they apply to our moral views, they.
- [03:53]
Apply to the views we have of ourselves.
- [03:55]
Right.
- [03:55]
Self esteem, what is it but an opinion we have of ourself?
- [03:58]
So that's sort of the background of.
- [04:00]
What I do and have always been.
- [04:03]
Interested in, not only doing the original.
- [04:05]
Research, but sharing that research widely. Because for decades and decades, social psychology has really been in the business of.
- [04:12]
Understanding the stuff that runs our everyday.
- [04:16]
Lives and people around the world, both for curiosity's sake, but also in ways that we could apply it and maybe strategically to accomplish some goal. We have.
- [04:26]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah. So when you talk about opinions and being opinions of ourselves, which I think in general, whether it's from a confirmation bias or status quo bias or what, we, you know, we get kind of ingrained in our own ways. So like how much of that is ever changing sort of thing? How much is static? Is there a way of really knowing some of that, you know, what, what's guess, what do we know? What can we learn from that?
- [04:55]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah. So you mean the just attitudes and.
- [04:59]
Opinions in general or specifically how we see ourselves?
- [05:02]
Malina Palmer
Well, I was asking about specifically how.
- [05:04]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
We see ourselves based on the intro you gave and would say answer it however you want to.
- [05:10]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure, yeah. So I mean, there's a few different interesting angles to take that with, but the part about how we see ourselves is probably actually where that work has been the strongest over time, I might say. So there's been a bunch of interest.
- [05:24]
In whether our sense of self is this kind of like static, ever enduring quality of who we are.
- [05:31]
Right.
- [05:31]
There's one me, and it's always the me. And cross cultural psychology seems to show that that can be the case, but.
- [05:38]
Often is the case for more Western cultures. In other cultures, our view of ourself is ever changing. The metaphor is of a river, right? You don't ever dip your toe into the same river twice. It's always something different.
- [05:49]
So too, are we a different person.
- [05:51]
From moment one to moment two?
- [05:53]
And so in some sense, right, the.
- [05:54]
Question of which is true, is it static or is it ever changing?
- [05:58]
I don't know. There's different ways to answer that question. What's more important is how we think.
- [06:03]
About that question for ourselves, right?
- [06:05]
So some people, some cultures, some places.
- [06:08]
Prefer to think of themselves and whether they themselves are good or bad people.
- [06:12]
As sort of an enduring trait of who they are. Other people or cultures or situations instead.
- [06:19]
Emphasize this ever changing nature.
- [06:21]
And that has lots of implications for.
- [06:23]
How we pursue goals, for how we.
- [06:25]
Try to talk to each other. Do we see the world as static.
- [06:28]
And fixed, or do we see the world as constantly changing and evolving?
- [06:33]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
And so when you look at, from a marketing or a brand perspective, so if you're at a company, do you just pick one and like you're going to appeal to either the people that think, you know, I'm ever changing or the people that are more static and that's what our brand is about, or should you have separate messaging for both types or something that might appeal to both? Would you say?
- [06:57]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't have any work specifically on there, but there's definitely plenty of work.
- [07:02]
Showing that there is this conundrum of I have a diverse audience with a bunch of different ways that they prefer.
- [07:10]
To see me and my product and my brand. And so I only get to give.
- [07:14]
One message at a time. So what message should that be?
- [07:17]
And if, you know, I think that your audience has this, what the researchers call dialectical view of the world, which.
- [07:24]
Is to say that like, yeah, things are constantly changing. I can't depend on something being the same every time.
- [07:29]
They might be totally open to a.
- [07:32]
Brand that shifts strategies or images or approaches.
- [07:37]
And there is some cross cultural, like advertising and marketing work that I think tends to show that in some places people are totally cool with a brand.
- [07:45]
Doing like a million different things, right?
- [07:46]
Like for Coca Cola to come out.
- [07:48]
With a line of socks would be like, fine, because I just care that.
- [07:52]
This is a respected brand.
- [07:53]
Whereas, you know, that's pretty unusual in the west, right?
- [07:56]
You go, well, no, no, no, I have a very specific idea of what.
- [07:59]
You'Re supposed to do.
- [08:00]
And the second blue Pepsi turns its head and becomes a thing, I'm out.
- [08:05]
I can't. I can't abide anymore.
- [08:07]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, so, yeah.
- [08:08]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
So I do think that the meta lesson of a lot of communication research is that your audience is going to have its own way that it prefers to navigate certain questions. And the way you present yourself, either.
- [08:21]
Your brand image or the messages that you communicate, ought to be aware of that audience's preference.
- [08:29]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, I'm gonna definitely link in the show notes. So my friend Will Leach, who also teaches at Texas A and M University with me in our certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics, his book Marketing to Mind States, he does talk about, you know, how you pick kind of what side you're on and what the goal is someone's looking at. So it is related to the question that I was asking for those who are listening and very intrigued by that. But, you know, if you pick a message for your brand essentially to say, you know, we want to be about this ever changing growth, and I think if you look at something like health, right, you could go either way and say we're going to appeal to the people who want to be ever growing and changing and not feeling stuck. And it's this journey of life message. And that's just going to appeal to someone very differently than, you know, if, you know, you have people who feel like they're very stuck in their, their life and this is who I am and what I have to be. Trying to force them out of that mindset or mind state, to use term from will, is going to be really difficult. But how might you message to them in that fixed spot and still get them to make a change? You know, that's a different type of communication and you just kind of pick what works for your brand and go with it. So anyway, you were talking about also. So like matching the message to this was before we got into the conversation. So those who are listening and going, when did he say that? So when we were talking pre call having the message tailored to the recipient and specifically that you've done some work with morals and when you want to use the kind of like right thing and when you want to avoid it. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [10:19]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure, yeah. So the genesis of that line of.
- [10:21]
Research really came out of this interesting.
- [10:24]
Question of how do people who moralize.
- [10:28]
Their views respond to persuasive attempts.
- [10:33]
And there's lots of reason to think.
- [10:34]
That if someone sees their stance as.
- [10:37]
Rooted in morality, they're just not going to budge.
- [10:40]
Right?
- [10:40]
They're going to go, now I already made up my mind. This is what's right. I decided. But we realize that there's this approach.
- [10:49]
To persuasion that talks about morality.
- [10:52]
Do the right thing. This is the right way to do it. You think about how we talk about the environment.
- [10:57]
We say, this is your opportunity to.
- [10:59]
Reduce harm, to think about future generations. These are moral appeals that we use. There's this long history in psychology and communication research of showing that if the message matches the kind of opinion the audience already has, it's going to go further. So there was this interesting opportunity to look at, like, okay, sometimes people already.
- [11:23]
See an issue through a moral lens.
- [11:26]
And so if I use a moral argument, are they going to be super.
- [11:31]
Resistant because they moralize it and they.
- [11:33]
Won'T budge, or are they going to be especially open because I'm talking about.
- [11:37]
Exactly the thing that they care about.
- [11:39]
And going into it, I had no idea it could go either way. They could talk. Totally hate that we're trying to change.
- [11:45]
An opinion that they see as morally relevant.
- [11:48]
Or they go, oh, yeah, no one's ever talked about the moral side of.
- [11:54]
The other position that you could take.
- [11:57]
And so that's what we find across a few different.
- [11:59]
To give one example is recycling. So pretty much everybody is super positive toward recycling.
- [12:05]
And so we thought, what if we try to convince you that recycling is.
- [12:07]
Actually not ideal, it's not perfect, it doesn't do everything that you think it might do.
- [12:11]
I can either try to say recycling.
- [12:13]
Isn'T great for moral reasons.
- [12:15]
Right. It has these kind of maybe unethical side effects, or I could try to.
- [12:19]
Argue that it has these pragmatic issues.
- [12:22]
And so what we find is that when people had a moral, pro recycling stance, they were actually a little more.
- [12:28]
Open to the ethical arguments to oppose.
- [12:32]
Recycling because it matched.
- [12:34]
Right.
- [12:35]
It talked directly to the reasons that.
- [12:38]
Were at the heart of this person's opinion to begin with.
- [12:40]
And so we've expanded it out a little bit.
- [12:42]
But the basic notion is that when.
- [12:44]
We'Re trying to talk about these moral issues, sometimes we feel like we want to retreat from talking about that. But that's exactly the dimension that the audience cares about.
- [12:53]
Right.
- [12:53]
And so if you make a moral.
- [12:55]
Issue all about saving money, people go, I don't care about saving money.
- [12:59]
I care about doing the right thing. And so if you keep trying to.
- [13:02]
Tell me that this is cheaper or.
- [13:03]
More efficient, I just don't care. But if you can actually convince me that the ethics are not what I thought they were initially, that might be.
- [13:12]
A stronger communication method.
- [13:15]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense when you know, not to say it's something that I would have like known going in to the research, like you said, we just sort of see what's going to happen. So knowing that plenty of people have their issues with Myers Briggs, but there that there's a, you know, that thinking versus feeling conundrum or you know, whichever side you come up on that dichotomy. And so being a thinking type myself, you hurt that person's feelings or that made them sad argument, it's like, well, you know, but that's not relevant to this work issue at hand because they something was done incorrectly or whatever. You know, you go logic for those sorts of things. And so if someone has a logical argument that's better than where I started from, I'm more likely to appeal to it versus the emotional impact of something because that is who I am. Whereas someone who is on the more feeling side, I can throw logic at them all day long. And perhaps it's ethics and morals just to use what you're talking about here and say logically this is why this is unethical or whatever, but if they're all about emotion, it just isn't going to land well.
- [14:36]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Totally.
- [14:37]
Yeah.
- [14:37]
And that's sort of some of the most matching research and persuasion is about.
- [14:42]
This sort of logical emotional divide, right?
- [14:45]
Where there's this question of well, what should I do? Are logical arguments the most persuasive or.
- [14:50]
Are emotional arguments the most persuasive?
- [14:52]
Should I get you to feel your way to my side or reason your.
- [14:56]
Way to my side?
- [14:57]
And the answer is neither of them.
- [14:58]
Are like the answer.
- [15:00]
It depends on who you're talking to, right. There are going to be people who either because of who they are and how they approach the world, are more just have a preference for that kind of like thinking approach to things and.
- [15:12]
Other people who really have a preference for emotional stuff.
- [15:15]
And even if it's not the person, right? There are some issues that I go, I, you know, I don't care about.
- [15:21]
The reasons, the like logical reasons for this. Like I do this because it feels good, right?
- [15:25]
Like if you try to convince me.
- [15:27]
That your pizza is the most economical pizza, I don't care.
- [15:33]
I want it to taste good, right? For pizza I'm an emotional person. For other things I'm a logical person, right. And so yes, there are individual personality types that can sort of underlie these things, but they're not perfect, right?
- [15:47]
Like I'm not only a logical person and most people aren't only an emotional person. There's also this nuance to it too, that depends on what you're talking about.
- [15:55]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yes. Because we are not robots, most of us, which is why behavioral economics and the behavioral sciences are even existing and why we have podcasts and talk about this both of us. So yes, and I would love if we can expand on, I know I mentioned in that pre conversation I get quite a few questions that have to do with personality type and if there are, you know, if we're looking at these concepts of behavioral science to say, you know, is someone more likely to be persuaded by loss aversion if they are X personality type or not or you know, if we know something big five being one that comes up more often versus like a Myers Briggs. But if you have a type of personality scale you like to look at or something, do you have any thoughts on or you know, I guess background research is maybe more what we're looking on versus just specific thoughts. But that goes to help with understanding on those personality types and how that might align with some specific appeals that may be most useful when we're looking for persuasion.
- [17:13]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah, so there's, there are all sorts of ways that personality variables could intercut.
- [17:19]
With the persuasion process.
- [17:20]
So in a lot of times in psychology we'll use this term individual differences.
- [17:25]
To mean sort of like basically personality.
- [17:27]
But when we hear personality we think.
- [17:29]
Oh, extraversion and conscientiousness.
- [17:30]
But there are all sorts of things.
- [17:32]
That are like traits of a person that aren't those kind of classic personality traits. And I think all of them are, can be relevant.
- [17:39]
So on one level, what these personality variables could do is determine just an overall openness to influence. Right. So some people call it open mindedness.
- [17:50]
Call it, you know, gullibility, call it.
- [17:53]
Any of these things could be like there are some people who are easy.
- [17:57]
Marks and other people who are not. Right. So that, that's sort of the pessimistic.
- [18:00]
Way to look at it. And I don't know that it's that helpful because that's such a wide brush.
- [18:06]
That you're painting with.
- [18:06]
But, but people have tried to do it. Right and they've even tried to do like intelligence.
- [18:09]
Right.
- [18:10]
Like if you're smart, are you more persuadable?
- [18:12]
And again, it's like I don't know.
- [18:13]
That that's the right question.
- [18:15]
Right.
- [18:15]
It's just there will never be a.
- [18:17]
Satisfying answer to that question.
- [18:19]
But I think it's more interesting is.
- [18:20]
A level where you think about personality as determining how a person approaches the persuasion dynamic.
- [18:28]
Right.
- [18:28]
And anyone has the potential to change their mind.
- [18:32]
We, we do. Contrary to popular belief, people do change.
- [18:35]
Their minds about things.
- [18:36]
It might take some nudges and time, but it, but it does happen. And so some of these personality variables.
- [18:42]
Can have something to do with just.
- [18:45]
One'S willingness to engage with certain ideas.
- [18:48]
So there's an individual difference variable that we study sometimes called the need for cognition.
- [18:53]
So some people are very high on.
- [18:54]
Need for cognition, some people are very low, like we were talking about before, about logic and reason.
- [18:59]
Some people just love to think about stuff. And if, you know, yeah, if you know, people love to think about stuff, then you can go, oh, well, I can give you a message that really is like the strongest version of my argument, right? And if I know that you're going to love to, to pick this apart, I'm going to like, give you the goods and like let you convince yourself.
- [19:19]
Based on my arguments that I've got something good to say.
- [19:22]
But some people go, oh, God, I hate puzzles.
- [19:25]
I would never touch a crossword. I don't like to think at all.
- [19:28]
Then I go, okay, I'm not going to waste my time outlining the 16.
- [19:33]
Reasons why what I have to say.
- [19:36]
Is worthwhile, but instead I might use.
- [19:39]
Sort of flashier tactics, right?
- [19:41]
I might say, listen, most people agree.
- [19:44]
Experts agree, this is just like the right answer to the question, right?
- [19:48]
And if you don't like to think very much, that is like the best strategy, right? Because you go, I'm still getting my message through, but I have to change.
- [19:55]
My approach based on how you're going to process the information I give you. So those are the first two levels.
- [20:02]
And the third level, I think is.
- [20:03]
What are the kinds of arguments you do give people?
- [20:06]
Right?
- [20:06]
And that's going to depend on personality as well.
- [20:08]
So classic big five type personality stuff.
- [20:12]
Openness to experience and extroversion and conscientiousness.
- [20:15]
There is some research to show that, you know, I could sell my product.
- [20:20]
Or idea framed in terms of the.
- [20:23]
Personality traits that define you best, and that's going to have more leverage, right?
- [20:28]
So like, the one thing that comes to mind is this dates it a.
- [20:31]
Little bit, but it was an advertisement.
- [20:33]
For a vcr and it was like.
- [20:34]
I could sell this VCR by showing how it's going to make you the.
- [20:37]
Life of the party.
- [20:37]
People are going to come to your house, you're going to throw movies on, have karaoke.
- [20:41]
It's going to be wonderful.
- [20:42]
Or I say, this is a great vcr. If you just want a Quiet night at home, watching some of the best.
- [20:47]
Movies that are available. This is, this is the way to go, as you might be following, right.
- [20:52]
That that's going to appeal differently to.
- [20:53]
Introverts and extroverts, right.
- [20:54]
So extroverts who get that first message are going to pay more attention.
- [20:58]
They're going to say, oh, this is actually there's something to this and introverts will prefer the other one. More recently there was a big kind.
- [21:05]
Of Facebook based study where they look.
- [21:07]
At ads floating around Facebook and they.
- [21:09]
Know, you know, if I have my ad tailored toward extroverts, more extroverted Facebook.
- [21:15]
Users are going to click on that ad more often.
- [21:18]
Right.
- [21:18]
So we know that just throwing a.
- [21:20]
Message out into the void is certainly one strategy, but if you can be.
- [21:25]
A little nuanced about it, right, the.
- [21:27]
Personality of the person you're trying to.
- [21:28]
Influence is going to determine which message.
- [21:31]
Is going to be most impactful.
- [21:34]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Well, and so looking at like you're saying with the Facebook ads, I would assume in that, that if you did have messaging for both extroverts and introverts or those who are have a tendency towards extroversion or you know, however we want to say that properly, but the introverted style potentially won't even really notice the ad that was targeted towards those that are more leaning towards extroversion. It's not going to make it through that subconscious filter. And so you, it's not like you're damaging that you could never appeal to them, but you just kind of know that when you're looking for a specific audience, you can kind of go a little bit further into appealing toward that personality type with the message that you're looking at. And ideally you can pick, you know, if you're running ads on Facebook, they're one of those that lets you pick specific interests or things that can be pointing towards extroversion or introversion to help determine and see if it's going to be most appealing to the audience. Where people aren't saying like my big five personality is this like people don't know. So if they can't, how do they, if they can't tell you, you know, how do they, you find them feel like is part of the problem as well. Which, yeah, yeah.
- [22:54]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Implementation wise, that's the thing.
- [22:56]
So I'm not, you know, I'm just.
- [22:58]
On the theory side of things.
- [22:59]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
I was going to say, I'm guessing you don't have that answer, you know.
- [23:02]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
But yeah, but it is, I mean it's, that's an important part of the equation. So the first thing you mentioned is maybe I just shotgun out all the.
- [23:09]
Versions of this possible.
- [23:10]
Right.
- [23:11]
And it's going to land in the right places.
- [23:13]
What I don't think we know enough about is the possibility of backfire. And maybe personality is not one of those that will work.
- [23:20]
But think about, like, moral values or political values.
- [23:23]
Right.
- [23:23]
If I'm framing something in terms of a very specific political audience and the.
- [23:29]
Wrong person comes across it.
- [23:31]
Right.
- [23:31]
That might actually tarnish the image.
- [23:33]
Right. Or backfire.
- [23:35]
Whereas, sure, an introvert who sees the.
- [23:37]
VCR ad about having parties just goes, not for me.
- [23:40]
But then I come across a different.
- [23:42]
One later and I go, oh, actually, maybe it is for me.
- [23:45]
Probably fine. I don't think we know where that line is, but intuitively it feels like.
- [23:49]
There'S a line somewhere where it actually could do more damage to mismatch or wrongly tailor to a particular person. And so that shotgun approach may not always pan out depending on what kind of matching you're doing.
- [24:02]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, definitely agree. I think. And political and all the things we try not to talk about too much in the religion and whatever, you can get any of those topics, you know, something can go wrong much more likely than it is to go the other way. So if you are working in a sensitive space, you know, be aware, if you're selling candy bars, you're probably okay.
- [24:28]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Right? Or at least if you're selling candy.
- [24:30]
Bars by matching to personality, if you're trying to politicize candy bars also, maybe not the way to go.
- [24:35]
Right.
- [24:35]
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
And I mean, what an interesting concept. We won't get go down that particular rabbit hole.
- [24:41]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
I did think, oh, yeah, I'd like to see what happens with that.
- [24:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
We'll do. We'll do a research project soon where we'll see about the politics of candy someday here. That'll be good times. When you think about persuasion, what gets you excited, like, when you're teaching? Maybe it's some of the classes that you teach or the areas of research that you're most interested in. You know, like, what do you look at these days that you think is.
- [25:09]
Malina Palmer
Just the most intriguing stuff out there?
- [25:12]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
What's cool about persuasion is it's, I.
- [25:15]
Think, one of the earliest topics of study in lots of the social sciences.
- [25:20]
And social psychology in particular.
- [25:21]
Like, a lot of that came out.
- [25:23]
Of kind of like the Second World War and the military being like, we.
- [25:28]
Need to gather up all the scientists.
- [25:30]
To, like, figure out how to do some things.
- [25:32]
One of them being how do we.
- [25:33]
Convince people to support this war effort? How do we increase morale?
- [25:37]
And so we really have like this.
- [25:39]
Foundational understanding of persuasion that goes back to the 40s because it was just.
- [25:43]
By necessity and it has branched out. What I think is so cool about persuasion is that I look at it from a psychology point of view, but.
- [25:51]
There are people in marketing and business and communication and political science and sociology.
- [25:56]
Theology and all of these fields that are bringing their own sort of perspective to it.
- [26:00]
Right.
- [26:01]
Because I think it's really at the heart of what we do every day.
- [26:03]
Right.
- [26:03]
It doesn't feel like we're trying to.
- [26:06]
Constantly influence the people around us, but.
- [26:08]
We are talking about our opinions almost all the time. Like, we can't help ourselves if we have a view on something. Right? Sure. Sometimes there are four where we go.
- [26:19]
Okay, I'm going to keep my mouth.
- [26:20]
Shut, but if you go see a movie that you love, you go, I.
- [26:23]
Want to tell people about it.
- [26:24]
I want to recommend it to them. And that's a form of persuasion, right. I'm through a message that I'm conveying.
- [26:31]
I may end up changing someone's mind or influencing someone to do something.
- [26:36]
So I think that's what's so interesting.
- [26:37]
About persuasion is it's really at the heart of so many things.
- [26:40]
It also means that it has been.
- [26:41]
Very well studied, which means, like, the.
- [26:44]
Question of like the new frontiers sometimes can feel like, wow, we've really, we've.
- [26:49]
Got a lot of it mapped out.
- [26:50]
But I don't think we have enough of it mapped out to know, like, with certainty.
- [26:55]
Here's the strategy that will work in your setting.
- [26:59]
There's always going to be some growing.
- [27:00]
Pains of the application process and some.
- [27:03]
Of our theories just maybe need to.
- [27:04]
Get a little tighter in the wake of COVID stuff. Everyone's like, how do we use messaging to increase compliance with health behaviors or to convince people to get a vaccine? We're like, actually, I don't have the perfect answer.
- [27:18]
We all could come up with a guess, but until we start to deploy.
- [27:22]
These things, we don't actually know.
- [27:23]
I think we're going to see a.
- [27:25]
Lot more of this work being done in the field, both for those kind of big public health related things, but also individual people implementing these things in their own businesses and marketing efforts.
- [27:36]
Your specific situation is a unique combination.
- [27:39]
Of factors that no one study has ever put together before. And I think we just need better tools to know like, okay, maybe how.
- [27:48]
Do we get a better sense of.
- [27:49]
This before we start or even devise a tool for applying these things to unique situations.
- [27:54]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah. I often talk about generalizability and its lack of existence when we look into applied. When we're taking something like where you're on the theoretical side and you read this research paper and go, oh my gosh, amazing. Like this is this. And it will always work and go, well, no, probably not. But there's a lesson there. There's something to know when you create study within your business context or life context. But know that there were parameters in a lab or whatever it was, that study was done in Australia and you're in Japan, you know, they're not necessarily going to be exactly the same. So sounds like we're thinking the same way on that.
- [28:42]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Totally.
- [28:43]
Yeah. The way of thinking of that that.
- [28:45]
I like recently is to think about all the stuff about human behavior being multiply determined.
- [28:50]
Right.
- [28:50]
So any one study can isolate a handful of factors.
- [28:54]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Right.
- [28:55]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
But just think about like, why did I have a breakfast taco this morning? God, I don't know. There's like 3,000 things that led to.
- [29:04]
That very, very specific decision.
- [29:07]
And there's no study out there, like.
- [29:09]
I said, that has all 3,000 of those vectors together.
- [29:12]
And so yeah, anytime we're going to be like, well, I want to know, I want to know how to get.
- [29:15]
My friend to change his mind about this topic. You go, okay, well there's, there's a.
- [29:20]
Lot at play, there's. And we can have good guesses better than nothing. But it's hard for me to say, you know, it's not like physics where.
- [29:28]
You go like, okay, this math equation will determine exactly how far this thing will travel once we launch it out of our rocket.
- [29:35]
Right.
- [29:36]
We don't have that kind of specificity.
- [29:39]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah. Out of curiosity, do you think that this area is kind of in a field to where it can never be that way, or do you think at some point in the future, probably not so close, but that that can be a physics of approach that we will know or it'll always have that sort of gotta test it out vagueness because it's just too complex.
- [30:04]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah. I think I'm optimistic enough to think.
- [30:07]
That it would be super cool and.
- [30:09]
Maybe possible for us to get to.
- [30:11]
A place like that.
- [30:11]
Right.
- [30:11]
Like if we really just hunker down. The problem is we have too many.
- [30:15]
Things that are interesting and if we're.
- [30:17]
Going to do this, we have to.
- [30:18]
Like pick a couple and just put our heads down and do that work to really figure it all out.
- [30:24]
Right.
- [30:24]
But that's Not, I mean, just to.
- [30:27]
Peel back the curtain a little bit. That's not how our world really works.
- [30:31]
Right.
- [30:32]
Like, I am rewarded for doing totally.
- [30:35]
New, original stuff no one's ever thought of before. When really I think science would be a little better off if we were like, hey everyone, we're going to spend.
- [30:43]
30 years trying to figure out how to get people to brush their teeth.
- [30:47]
And once we do that, we'll have this grand model of all these pieces that are at play and that's going.
- [30:52]
To inform all sorts of other stuff.
- [30:54]
But I think it's hard to like.
- [30:56]
Really get down to that, that narrow specificity.
- [30:59]
But you know, at the same time, I also think there's an error of.
- [31:02]
Randomness that's always going to be part of it.
- [31:04]
If you run the same simulation of.
- [31:06]
The world a dozen times, it's not.
- [31:10]
Going to go exactly the same.
- [31:11]
Right.
- [31:11]
There's, there's a bunch of stuff that you just really can never account for. But you know, cross your fingers.
- [31:17]
Hopefully that becomes a smaller and smaller piece of the pie as you look further into it.
- [31:21]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the machine learning AI, big data stuff is going to be, would be very critical in a process of being able to have any of that be more easily mapped just when there is so much complexity. I've had a couple guests on recently talking about how they're using that for predicting behavior. And you can do predictive eye tracking based on what other people have done. Just amazing stuff. So I think that's, there's a mix of all these things coming together to make things like that happen.
- [31:57]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
It's tricky because the big data stuff is helpful because it's a.
- [32:01]
You're able to just like have all the pieces that you never thought were relevant. But you also run into this problem.
- [32:06]
That like, if I have all the pieces, I can be too easily wooed.
- [32:11]
By something that actually doesn't matter.
- [32:13]
Right.
- [32:13]
Like it's sort of by accident mattered.
- [32:15]
In this one observation, but it doesn't actually matter.
- [32:19]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Right.
- [32:19]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
And so you do run the risk.
- [32:21]
Of chasing stuff that isn't relevant if you have too much to account for.
- [32:26]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Right. And it would be arrogant to think that you actually got everything.
- [32:31]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah, well, sure.
- [32:33]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
And so there's that like false sense of confidence and security that comes in something like that. So lots of things to be worked out. But that's what makes it a fun time to be in the field, Right?
- [32:44]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Totally.
- [32:45]
Yep.
- [32:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah. Well, as we are getting sort of close to closing out the show, what is something that you Wish I would have asked. Or something that you just love to talk about or a big focus for you. Now's your. Now's the time. Share something else that I didn't even know to ask.
- [33:09]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure, yeah.
- [33:10]
Goodness, what a question. I mean, the thing that comes to mind is I spend a lot of.
- [33:16]
Time working on this idea of attitude strength, right?
- [33:19]
So in addition, I guess to one.
- [33:21]
Step backward from that is when we.
- [33:23]
Think about persuasion, people have different implicit ideas of what our goal is. Like, what are we trying to persuade people of? From my vantage point, it's opinion related, right?
- [33:34]
Like, persuasion is about changing your evaluation.
- [33:37]
Of something just to get as technical.
- [33:41]
And boring about it as possible.
- [33:43]
An evaluation, an attitude is just, I.
- [33:45]
See something and is my reaction positive or negative?
- [33:48]
Ultimately, that's what an opinion boils down to. Oh, I like Life cereal. What that means is I have a little positive sticker and I put it.
- [33:57]
On Life cereal in my brain.
- [33:59]
Or I go, I don't like broccoli.
- [34:02]
Which is a lie. But imagine, right?
- [34:04]
I see broccoli, I have a little.
- [34:05]
Negative sticker, and I stick it on.
- [34:06]
Broccoli in my brain. And persuasion is about altering that, right? So if I go, how could I get you to like broccoli, Right? How can I get you to take.
- [34:14]
Off the negative sticker and put a positive one on instead?
- [34:17]
And so that. That's a lot of what. What persuasion is Now. Some people really are more interested in behavior. They're like, I don't actually care if you like broccoli. I just want you to eat it. Which is fine.
- [34:27]
It's just a slightly different version of persuasion.
- [34:29]
But if we stick with that evaluation components, we often, I think, get into.
- [34:35]
This trap of thinking that, like, oh.
- [34:37]
Opinions are just one thing, right? You have an opinion, and we maybe agree or we disagree, but there are.
- [34:44]
A bunch of different layers underneath those opinions that are related to the strength of it, right?
- [34:49]
And so you might see two people who would, on the surface, look like they're in perfect agreement, but are actually totally different. Like, maybe one person is 100% willing to shed that opinion for another one, and the other person goes, I will.
- [35:04]
Never, ever, ever reverse my view on this.
- [35:07]
And that's essentially what we mean by.
- [35:09]
A strong opinion is one that people.
- [35:10]
Say, I will not change it, and it will be the thing that guides.
- [35:14]
The decisions I make, right? So if we think about product attitudes, right?
- [35:18]
If I have intense loyalty to some brand, I not only like it, but.
- [35:23]
You can't convince me it's bad. And I'm going to spend my money on that brand over other brands.
- [35:29]
Right.
- [35:29]
That's a strong opinion.
- [35:31]
And so I think a lot of persuasion research could start to look at not only how do we get you to like this brand, but how do I get you to have a strong.
- [35:39]
Opinion about my brand?
- [35:41]
Right. How can I get you to be.
- [35:42]
Like an advocate for my brand, go.
- [35:44]
Out and tell other people about it? If we screw up, at least temporarily, how do I get you to stick.
- [35:50]
With us until we can sort things out? And so this is this domain of attitude strength.
- [35:54]
Right.
- [35:54]
How do we get people to be confident, unconflicted, see this as an important part of their identity.
- [35:59]
That to me I think is a layer that people don't always appreciate in persuasion.
- [36:03]
If you're just focused on changing a mind, period. But that actually turns out to have a huge impact on how we talk about our opinions.
- [36:12]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah. So the ultimate question on there, knowing that theory is more in the space that you are versus applied. Is there some sort of a tip for the brands out there for getting to have more of those strong opinion advocates for them, like a place to start or what they should be looking at maybe to find people who are already advocates of theirs, things like that?
- [36:36]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah. So I think a couple things come to mind. One is it's still sort of new.
- [36:41]
In terms of the work that's being.
- [36:43]
Done in it, but identity related attitudes.
- [36:45]
Right.
- [36:46]
Some people call them self defining attitudes.
- [36:48]
Right.
- [36:48]
This is an opinion that really is.
- [36:50]
Like about who I am and, and.
- [36:52]
Are there ways that you could take.
- [36:55]
Your product or brand and make it self relevant?
- [36:58]
Right.
- [36:58]
Like it's not just coffee, it's like me, it's, that's who I am.
- [37:02]
Right.
- [37:03]
This is part of my day, it's.
- [37:04]
Part of who I am to consume this product.
- [37:07]
Right.
- [37:07]
And so once it gets attached to.
- [37:10]
My sense of self, it it's a little harder to shatter later.
- [37:14]
And the other is if you think about like where confidence comes from, one place confidence comes from is consensus.
- [37:21]
For better or worse.
- [37:22]
Right.
- [37:22]
If I look out at the world and I at least seem to think most people hold this opinion, I become confident in it.
- [37:30]
Right.
- [37:30]
Sometimes we think about social proof as a way of changing minds, but it's just as important a tool as getting.
- [37:36]
People to commit to something they already believe.
- [37:39]
Right.
- [37:39]
So sure, you're already on my team, you already are buying my product. I want it to be clear that you're not alone.
- [37:47]
Right.
- [37:47]
You're part of a community of people.
- [37:49]
Who all have agreed that this is something that's worthwhile and that that could be enough to help stoke some confidence in it through that consensus.
- [37:59]
Malina Palmer
Love that.
- [38:00]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
I will of course be linking to the interview I recently did with Robert Cialdini, or I guess like I said, Bob. Bob Cialdini. Now that I have the permission where, you know, any of that persuasion and involved influence stuff, we can't have a conversation about it and not link him.
- [38:17]
Malina Palmer
Into it at some point.
- [38:18]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
So that'll be in here. So thank you so much for sharing that and about being self relevant. So this is part of me and who I am. An identity piece versus just, yeah, I like that cereal versus like I eat Cocoa Puffs.
- [38:36]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah, I am Cocoa Puffs. Yeah. Right.
- [38:38]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. The I am.
- [38:41]
Malina Palmer
And for me it would be like.
- [38:43]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Kate Spade, one of my brands. Right. I love Kate Spade. But that can still change as we say, you know, I'm more of the river approach than a fixed person. So we'll see.
- [38:55]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
And everything is relative.
- [38:56]
But.
- [38:57]
But it at least gets. It makes it less likely that you.
- [38:59]
Would jump ship as quickly.
- [39:01]
Right.
- [39:01]
Because you go, oh, wait, for me.
- [39:03]
To totally do a 180 on that.
- [39:04]
Means that maybe I'm wrong about myself.
- [39:06]
And that's much more uncomfortable. So I would rather like just kind of hold onto things for a little bit until I can be convinced otherwise. Which also means that as a persuasion.
- [39:14]
Strategy, one of the things you can do is chip away at these strength things first.
- [39:18]
Right. So I go, maybe I'm not going.
- [39:19]
To get you to totally reverse your.
- [39:21]
Position, but maybe I can get you.
- [39:23]
To sort of distance yourself from this.
- [39:25]
Thing or get you to doubt this thing or realize actually there are people who don't think this way that may not change your mind right now, but.
- [39:34]
It sets the stage for change later.
- [39:36]
Right.
- [39:36]
So you can reverse this.
- [39:37]
Right.
- [39:37]
How do I get people on my side versus how do I get people.
- [39:40]
Away from that side? Strength is an important part of that equation too, I think.
- [39:43]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, it's a long game for a lot of these and there can be some priming in your messaging or something now that we're looking down the line of getting someone, like you said, chipping away at that to where when the time comes in your selling process that they're ready to be more likely to be open to the change conversation when you're looking to persuade them way down the line.
- [40:08]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Yeah. And there's just an interesting aside.
- [40:10]
I don't know why this came to.
- [40:11]
Mind, but there's a.
- [40:12]
Speaking of the Identity relevant thing.
- [40:14]
One of the interesting ways that people.
- [40:15]
Have looked at persuasion is through self affirmation. I don't know if this is a.
- [40:19]
Familiar thing, but if I can basically.
- [40:22]
Remind you that you're a good person.
- [40:24]
Just let's just get it out of the way. You're a good person, you have values that are important. You do things that help people. Now all of a sudden people get less defensive because sometimes people go, well.
- [40:35]
I can't be wrong about this thing.
- [40:37]
How could I have loved this thing for so long? And now it's bad. Now I'm defensive about it. And in some ways that kind of.
- [40:44]
Reminds me of that chipping away thing.
- [40:45]
Which is to say, let me first remind you, you are all great all on your own. And also this thing that you've believed, I don't know that it's really true or I don't really think it's the best product out there. Now all of a sudden you go, oh, I'm now able to let go of this because I'm not, I don't. I'm not gripping onto it as tightly because I'm not using it to fulfill.
- [41:06]
This sense of being a good person.
- [41:08]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Yeah, one of my favorite sort of, I guess it would be I'm trying to think of the right word of totally escaping me. But not a proverb, but something in that realm to which is the you are perfect with room for improvement. Like we are all perfect. And like, you know, tomorrow's another day. Do something to be perfect then too. So as we now officially close out the show, for everyone who I know is so interested in your work and what you are looking into and they want to hear more from you, what's the best way for them to do that?
- [41:49]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure.
- [41:50]
So academically my website is andylattrell.com, where.
- [41:54]
You can find the research and stuff that me and my lab have done.
- [41:57]
In the past and ongoing but that can get a little technical. So to. To. To look at these things from another perspective.
- [42:04]
I also host a show called Opinion Science, which is a podcast that comes.
- [42:08]
Out bi weekly, mostly featuring interviews with.
- [42:11]
Other social scientists who study our opinions, where they come from and how they change. Occasionally doing deeper dives into bigger topics like dissonance or contact hypothesis that bring.
- [42:21]
Lots of perspectives together and then other times talking to professionals who do work.
- [42:25]
Applying these things, but maybe not from a scientific angle.
- [42:29]
So the one that always comes to.
- [42:30]
Mind is I talked to a film critic about how she approaches reviewing films.
- [42:34]
And talking about them to the public.
- [42:36]
Political campaign manager about how you actually.
- [42:39]
Do that kind of stuff. So I think there is sort of.
- [42:42]
Lots of different ways of getting of this question of what are our opinions.
- [42:47]
Where do they come from and why.
- [42:48]
Are they so important? When can they change? So implications for politics, for brands, et cetera. So you can find more about that@opinionsciencepodcast.com or any of the podcast places or on the social medias Opinion Scipod Perfect.
- [43:03]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Malina Palmer or a guest host)
Well we will definitely have links to the podcast, to your website, to the socials. They'll all be in the show notes waiting for everyone. And I just want to say thank you again, Dr. Andy Luttrell for joining me on the show today. It's been a joy chatting with you.
- [43:20]
Dr. Andy Luttrell
Sure thing. Super fun.
- [43:22]
Malina Palmer
Thank you again to Dr. Andy Luttrell for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I'm always fascinated by how confident we can feel in our opinions, even when they're based on little more than gut instinct or a fleeting thought. Andy's insights on moral conviction and the illusion of understanding are such important reminders that our beliefs aren't always as solid as they seem. And that's not always a bad thing. It's actually an invitation to stay curious, to check our assumptions, and to open the door for meaningful dialogue and change. This is a great setup for the next episode of the show, my chat with Laurier Manden, where we'll explore how brands tap into identity, meaning and desire, those very same forces that shape and solidify our opinions. If you aren't already subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now is a great time to do so to ensure you don't miss that or any other episode. So now I'm curious, what opinion have you changed your mind about recently? Or what's one you've never questioned? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as molina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Andy and myself and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 534 and thank you again to Dr. Andy Luttrell for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for my conversation with Laurier Mandan to discuss his book I Need that. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
- [45:23]
Podcast Narrator
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.