← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
535: I Need That: Unpacking the Psychology of Perceived Need
00:51:21
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, Melina Palmer welcomes Laurier Mandin, author of the insightful book I Need That. Together, they explore the powerful psychology behind perceived need and how it influences consumer behavior. Laurier...
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to episode 535 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Laurier Mandan, author of I Need that. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:20]
B
You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:36]
A
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Have you ever looked at a product, maybe a new piece of tech, a beautiful piece of design, or just something surprisingly well marketed and thought? I need that. Not I want that, but I need that. What exactly flips the switch in our minds from want to need and what does it mean for businesses trying to break through the noise and become indispensable? That's the core of today's conversation with Laurier Mandin, a seasoned product marketer and founder of Graphos Product. His new book I Need that explores the psychology of perceived need and what it takes to create products people are compelled to buy. If you've been listening to the show for a while and especially for everyone who's read my first book, what your customer wants and can't tell you, you're going to find a lot of synergy here. Laurier's lens brings a thoughtful and actionable perspective on how emotion, identity and behavioral cues shape the way we perceive value and how businesses can tap into that for amazing impact on customer loyalty and sales. In our conversation, Laurier shares memorable stories including one about a solar powered bike computer changed his life. Also eye opening insights and what it really takes to move from nice to have to non negotiable. As you listen today, I invite you to consider what does your product or your personal brand help people to become? Are you selling a thing or a transformation really quickly? Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 535. Now let's jump right in. Laurier Mandan, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [02:37]
B
Oh I've been looking forward to this so much as as I mentioned earlier to you getting ready. I've been listening to your other podcast episodes and watched your TEDx talk and everything I find that you've created. I just Gobble right up. So this is going to be great.
- [02:53]
A
Well, I am so honored and delighted to hear that. And I have loved your book as well, and I've been so excited to be able to have you on the show. Before we jump into that, for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [03:09]
B
Absolutely. Well, I've been a marketer for more than 30 years now. I started my company called Graphos product in 1993, and we started off as a generalist marketing company, so we were just Graphos at that point. But I very quickly learned that I like to help clients not just create new things, new businesses, but also develop products. And in doing so, really got into understanding what made some products succeed while others didn't. And I found also that very often the people that would come to me with their product that was already either fully developed or very close to the finish line in development would have these fatal problems with the product. They would have gotten way too far along the line with all the optimism in the world that this thing is going to succeed. They had this inventor optimism, this entrepreneurial optimism, a combination of different things. But as an objective person, I could see right away or very soon what the tripping points were going to be and what the blockers were to success. And just watching this happen, having it happen year after year after year, I got to thinking, there's gotta be a way that I can help people to set themselves up better to avoid this. So a little over five years ago, I started writing this book, and I didn't even know when I started what it was going to be. But it turned into my book called I Need that. Creating and Marketing products People are compelled to buy. And really the goal of that book was to end this problem. I wanted to create something that when somebody who is thinking of creating a new product or business or any other new thing, if they read this book, they would have no excuse to repeat the problems I had seen. Really no excuse to fail, at least in traditional ways, where they're not meeting actual need, where they don't understand how the brains of their customers work, where they. They don't really have a strong enough connection between the purpose of what they're doing and what customers feel they actually need. So that's how I got to where I am right now. And the book has kind of taken on a life of its own. I'm spending a lot of time talking about that, but I work directly with clients every day that are developing Products and taking them to market. And it's kind of the most fun I've ever had in my life because of this combination of things. Working with inventor entrepreneurs and business leaders and talking to people like you. And it's the kind of. It's opened up this whole new world of discovery that kind of makes me feel childlike, and I'm really, really having a lot of fun.
- [05:51]
A
No, that's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that. And it's like just the. When you go all in and you put the thing in a book. And this is one of those where, you know, having gone through the process and written three, like, you. You go. And it's like, you think you know what you're gonna say, and then you realize, I have no idea what I'm gonna say. And then you start talking to people, and it, like, comes together, and it becomes something, like, bigger than what you ever imagined. And I think that's a really fun process. It sounds like you've had some of that. And then you have to go, like, let it exist in the world, which is a scary thing because, like, what are people gonna say? And so, you know, great that Having positive response and people loving it, as they should.
- [06:36]
B
Well, thank you. And, yeah, other things keep coming out of it, right? I mean, in writing your books, you find that then you've got to promote the books, which is a huge amount of work, but it's also. It opens doors again that you didn't know existed. And one of the things I started doing when I came out with the book was I started writing daily emails and going from. I had a separate company subscriber list, but starting from scratch in promoting the book and creating content around that. So writing these daily emails for me has been a really great exercise. I was not sure I wanted to commit to that at the start, but now I'm about two weeks ahead in my writing, and I'm just constantly coming up with ideas that, you know, that just. I can't wait to get them into it, maybe a little bit deeper exploration, but turn them into my next one. And so it's, you know, I find that, you know, I'm 56 years old right now, and one of the things you start worrying about getting into your 50s is mental decline and cognitive decline and things like that. But having these things that really excite you and, you know, that constantly get your juices flowing about excitedly and willingly and just, you know, with a passion, discovering new things, to me, that is. There's a magic elixir in there somewhere where it just starts to, you know, you got this flywheel that just gets going. So it's. I'm sure you've experienced some of that too, because I know you do so many things and, you know, I really admire that. I look at what you're doing and very often that happens. I look at, you know, what other people are doing and I think I'm, I think I'm so busy and I think I'm getting a lot done. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, this lady's a powerhouse.
- [08:10]
A
Oh, thank you. Well, and I mean in the same way where you said that, and I go, oh, man, we've talked about daily. And you go, no, no, no, I can't do daily. So what made you choose to do the daily email versus something like weekly? And then do you have it's, you know, shorter form so you can just get like one little blip? Do you have something that you follow? I'm sure everybody who is listening and thinks about creating content would love any of those tips. And like, what, how that's been working for you.
- [08:41]
B
Well, there's a. I've been listening for years to Jonathan Stark and he does a pricing based daily email and he does podcasts and other things like that. He has the Ditching hourly podcast and he's very good at responding to people. And I very often email him back and ask him questions. And so he inspired me to start doing daily and to try sending daily emails. And, you know, his philosophy was kind of what I explained is that once you get in that rhythm, that it's the best way to write emails, because I did, you know, I've done blog post writing and I write for my clients and it's, you know, even though I love to write it, it can be daunting. And when you're writing every week or every month now, it's something that you've just got to somehow get something in that hopper and do it. But when you're writing daily, there's this magic that happens that you're always kind of on the lookout. And when you're always on the lookout and noting things down and you realize you got more than one idea a day. So my process is I keep notes in a number of places because I'm using different tools. When I get these ideas. I've got all kinds written down on my desk right now and on my phone and in a notes app on my computer. I use Joplin for, for writing down quick notes and that type of things. Or I'll dictate. So I've got these sources of ideas and very often I don't get to the ones that I've kind of got on the list because it's whatever, I came up spontaneously. It's like, oh, I had this conversation today and to me those are the best kind. If I can get in and start just telling about an experience I just had or something that just came to me and I dug into it. I listened to one of Molina's podcasts. Now I've got to write about this mirroring effect that you get when you, when you, when you talk to other people and you see or you see what someone else is experiencing. And so very often, you know, things just bring back ideas. They're like, I understand there's, there's, there's something to this that I've got to write about. So that's continuously happening in just seeing that there's, oh, I just recognized a bias in myself when I made this purchase. So I'm going to write about that particular cognitive bias. And you know, the ideas are just kind of fun to harvest and I wish I had more time sometimes just to do that. It's just to chase more ideas.
- [10:54]
A
Yeah, I love that and I think it's nice too because it's like when you have the, you know that there's another one tomorrow. It's one thing when it's like, but this is the monthly newsletter or it's the big blog or it's the one thing I'm going to do, then you can see it and just procrastinate for your whole life about having the best possible idea and the perfect way to talk about it. When it's like, man, like, this is today's, this should be good. And then tomorrow I'll write about something else and it's like you can kind of convince yourself it's more like a blip, but to just get the thing out there.
- [11:31]
B
Yes. Well, I've got a client that's a fairly large B2B and we've got a team of writers that write different types of log pieces. And I usually write, you know, some of my job is to write kind of the, the bigger idea ones and to me that's a challenge. I was working on one yesterday and yeah, it's not something where I just dash it out, refine it a bit and, and you know, I usually stick a nice AI image at the top because I've gotten good at creating these kind of Disney style cartoon images that I put at the start of mine just as kind of a bit of eye candy to bring people in. And so I've got this process for doing my own stuff. And it's not just painless, but it's fun. But working on client stuff is. I wouldn't say it's not fun, but there's this obligation of hitting a certain mark of quality and making sure that when it's going through editing that people don't have to edit things they shouldn't and not being redundant. And my job with that is always, if I'm writing a piece for a client, it's. I want to make this the best piece on that subject on the Internet. I don't have that kind of standard if I'm writing a. A daily email. So, you know, to me, that's probably what another thing that makes it. It fun is. You know, this is. It's for my audience and I. My goal is to make it worthwhile so they don't unsubscribe and they're getting value, but nobody else is holding me to a certain level. And I just feel that it's a lot more judgment free on my own end as well as anywhere else. When you're just doing something like that, like, if you're doing. When you do your podcast, I feel that you're just having a great time with it that I can almost see, you know, I'm listening, but I see the sparkle in your eye. I see that this is something you're doing because it's what feeds you. It's because this idea excites you and this was something you thought you wanted to talk about and just happens that lots of people want to hear about it too.
- [13:13]
A
Yeah, it's. It is definitely one of those things. And when I give people that advice as they pick something up or whether, you know, don't do the podcast or write the blog or start the YouTube channel or do the thing because of all the, like, big, like, people that are going to want to listen. And the whole thing it's going to be, is like, you know, a lot of time. You know, you should expect you're talking into a vacuum of nothing for a lot of these. And, you know, podcasts don't necessarily get as many downloads as you think, and some are very successful and some are less. And if you don't love talking about the thing and you don't like reading the book or doing whatever it is and doing the prep, like, don't bother. It's not. It's a lot of work. But it should be fun. Like you said, when I first started.
- [13:58]
B
Writing those daily emails, I had no subscribers, so I was writing to an audience of nobody. As the first few started to come in, it got more and more exciting. And the funny thing was that the feeling didn't change that much. I still felt like I'm writing this to make it so that someone can come back and read it and it'll be interesting. And now I do think about more about. I don't want to make people upset with this, or I do think more about the greater audience and. And just how things will take than I did when I was writing the first ones, because I was like, nobody cares that I can kind of write whatever I want. So it was really liberating. I think starting with an audience of zero is kind of good that way, because there's. You don't have a safety net, but you don't really need one so much.
- [14:40]
A
Right. It can shape itself. Well, that's. I actually. So here at the Brainy business, you know, we have been working and talking for what feels like eternity about YouTube and doing more with video and stuff. And so at the time that we're recording, we just, like, put out the very first of a new YouTube channel, which of course had zero. And I think we, as of today, because it's been like, you know, two days since the first little short went out. You know, we have, like, when last I checked, we had seven subscribers, so. To the brainy Molina channel, which, you know, seven, you know, because it's getting ready to grow. Look out, Mr. Beast. You know, I'm coming up with my seven subscribers, but by the time this comes out, we'll see, you know, Maybe I'll have 12 subscribers by then, you know, and be living the dream.
- [15:35]
B
You're going to get people reaching out to you now saying, hey, Malene, I. You should have more than seven subscribers. Let me help you with that.
- [15:41]
A
Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah, we definitely. Those are always there with that. Well, in speaking of things that we need or not. So the big question I told you I had something that I have been so excited to ask from the moment that I saw the title of the book. So I know for what your customer wants and can't tell you, my first book, I debated for a long time and had a lot of conversation about whether or not I would have it be want or need in the title. And I, of course, settled on wants for my own reasons. That's why I chose to go with. With that. And so when your book Has I need that I was so excited to say, like, why I need what a what, not a want. Tell us about the difference there and why you, I'm sure, debated to come to the title for that, for the book.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah. And I was on a podcast not that long ago where the host challenged me on that and said, but I agree with almost everything you say, but wants are more important than needs. And that's where I do push back because I think there's a different way that I interpret what a need is. Because when I look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it goes, you know, it starts off with these existential needs that we have at the bottom of the pyramid. And it goes up to, you know, these, these transcendent things, these really bigger than you aspirational needs at the very top. But anything that's higher on the pyramid, anything that's, that's not life and death to you is a choice that you make. It's a prioritization of what you have, the resources that you have, you have the space you have to put things in, and it's up to you, it's on you to choose what resources you're going to allocate to the things that you're going to acquire and still hopefully have enough to cover, you know, all those fundamental functional needs that you have as a human being. So that's our, when we're creating products, it's our job to help customers to feel that they need your product. Because there's a flip that goes on in your mind. You see something, you're interested in that something, you may want that something, but it's only when the flip happens and that want goes into need that you're now going to prioritize that. Because, you know, we're subjected to 10,000 plus messages a day that are trying to get us to do things and buy things and do what someone else wants us to do. And we have to based on what we feel we truly need. What, what makes that flip from want to need. That's how we, that's the point at which we decide to. This one is non negotiable. This is what I need. And as soon as you say that in your mind, I talk about, you know, how the word need has evolved in our minds since we were small children and our mother told us, you need to do this. And when she said that that wasn't someone, it wasn't you wanting to, it was, it was imperative you were going to do that thing that mom said or, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna lose privileges, you're going to lose screen time, you're going to, you're, you're not going to have a happy life until you do the thing that mom says you need. So, you know, right from the way that that word gets established in us, it stays that way. And when we, even when you say kind of jokingly, because you see a product that you like on, on TV or in a store, you say, I need this. When you say that, just processing that word and, and you're automatically putting that in a much higher priority. You're flipping that into a place where the negotiability of whether or not you're going to have that is on a whole different level. Right? You might not get it right now, but it's in a place that it's on your need list and not just your wish list or your want list anymore.
- [19:38]
A
And that aspirational piece of. As you start to visualize yourself as the type of person you will be when you have that thing and start working toward it, you have a great story. And in the book about a piece of cycling tech that helped you to have that first moment of need where that really happened for you, can you share a little bit about that story?
- [20:03]
B
And that story came out of me going back into my own mind and trying to think about, you know, the very first time that I ever felt I needed something. And yeah, I was, I was a young cyclist. I was like 15 years old and I lived in a small town and it was hard for me to get to road races. And my training was, was pretty arduous and I wasn't finding it to be very rewarding. And I had this crappy old analog speedometer that wore the side of my tire and was absolutely miserable. And I was literally on the verge of giving up cycling and I was getting interested in other things anyway. And I was flipping through. My dad had a subscription to Bicycling magazine because he was the guy who got me into cycling. And I was. A new issue had just arrived and I kind of despondently flipped this thing open and took a look at it and tossed it on the floor. And it opened up by fate, I guess, or something right on the page where there was this ad for a Cateye solar cycle computer. And I looked at that thing and it was like no tech I'd ever seen in my life. It was like no device. It was wedge shaped and aerodynamic looking and solar powered. And I picked that thing up and I was like, okay, did I not just give up on cycling, but it wasn't this cool before. And I started mowing lawns. I got myself enough money because I didn't have a job to buy this Cateye solar cycle computer. And it really changed the way that I rode. It gave me good data. It was fun to look at. I was tracking my cadence and all these things I didn't even know existed. As I was riding and I could feel myself, you know, I was riding more often. I was enjoying it again. This one little tool made my life more exciting. And it started to, you know, it came from the idea that when I saw this, I had this fantasy about who I could be. And with that thing, I wasn't just wanting to own that piece of technology. I wanted to use that to leverage it, harness it to become a better me. And I saw that happening. I started winning races again. I got back into what I liked. And then I took my Cateye Solar after a winter ride and I put it over a hundred watt bulb to charge it so I could go back on my wind trainer that I used for doing my winter training. And I went the next day to pick it up and 100 watt bulb had melted it. So I went and got myself a real job just for the purpose of. Because I needed that thing. Just for the purpose of buying myself another Cateye Solar. And, you know, there was nothing that was going to stop me. And I recognized that was for me. It wasn't the purchase, it was what I now call the coveted condition. It was the person I wanted to be. And when I look back and think about it, I actually think that thing, if I'd become less active, if I hadn't gotten back into cycling, I'd probably be in a different place than I am right now. Not just physically, because I've always been kind of committed to fitness since that time, but. But just in terms of goal setting. And, you know, sometimes you, in your life, you just know that there are these pivotal moments. And for me, that was one of them. That was a time when, you know, I was going to parties with friends and I was at risk of just kind of drifting off and becoming a different person than who I became when I saw myself as an athlete. And I see that in my two daughters right now is that they're into sprint canoe and sprint kayak and they do cross country skiing in the winter. And they've really seen their athleticism grow. They're now 11 and 15. And to me, that's beautiful because I just recognize that, you know, when you've got those kinds of goals, they're also really brilliant. Much smarter than me kids, they clearly got it from my wife. But watching them, you know, them have these opportunities, these choices to make and on their own, picking the best way is so exciting for me. It's like, wow, they're going to make me succeed here. These kids are. You know, you do your best to guide them, but it's really cool when you see them making choices and going ways that sometimes didn't even have to prompt them to go. It's like they just naturally found a good way. It's amazing.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. And definitely love that. So congrats for, you know, good dadding and parenting along the way that they. There's. There's definitely stuff that you are doing that they are emulating. I am confident in that and. But just being able to look back and like you said that like that moment of the thing where you go, oh my gosh, I need that. And like we said, it's visualizing it. And I love the framing you have on there of that coveted condition. Right. And I think far too few brands think about that thing that someone is aspiring to be. And I think that language there that it's that that coveted thing I'm going to be. It's one thing to say, like, oh, my identity or like, in the future I might be this person and who are they going to be? But like that we aspire and dream in a way that's different when we think about coveting who we will be in the future and like protecting, nurturing, building, becoming that thing that you're striving for. And like, in so many ways, not every brand is going to be so innovative or different and amazing that it's going to help me be my coveted feature future self. Right. But they could be, if you chose to think about it in that way. And those brands that break the mold, that become different, that are something that change a whole industry. As I'm like drinking my Starbucks right to where it's like just coffee, but it doesn't have to be, if you think about it different. And so I love this approach and thoughtfulness. I really enjoyed the way you talk about Apple, too. As people start to think about what they're going to be as they frame up what their business is, if they were wanting to create this coveted condition. Can you share a little bit about kind of where brands get that wrong and what they could be doing to think about that in a different way?
- [26:06]
B
And Apple has always done that so well. They recognize. They probably don't call it the coveted condition, but they have a way of recognizing. Not just that people aspire and buy for aspirational purposes, but they also recognize. I talk about in the brain science parts of the book, which you're very familiar with is I call the limbic system the dog brain because it's so driven by emotion, it's so impulsive and it's so important in making decisions. And Apple understands the combination of that. Getting the dog brain, getting past the rational brain, which I call the tank brain because it's much, much slower. It has a job of rationalization, usually kicks in after the fact to do that. And Apple doesn't get caught up in those tank brain details. It doesn't get caught up in the long list of specifications. When they launch a new iPhone and they want to tell you it has a really great camera, they don't get into the specs of the camera at all. They post user generated content that shows what people have created with their iPhone, what average, the beautiful photography that they've done. And with that, now you can aspire to be like that too. All you need is this device. That's the only thing holding you back from achieving those results. Right? So, and you know, there's, there's the old story about when they first introduced the ipod with the 1000 songs in your pocket. That was, there was no tech data on that at all. They didn't even tell you how that was going to happen because you didn't care. You just, that was something you couldn't get. Other MP3 players existed, but they were, you could have 30 songs in your pocket and you know, it was hard to get them there. They didn't automatically sync with the itunes store and put them there for you. So Apple is, has been a big player in my life because I've been in marketing for all those years and Apple came into my life even before that. The first computer I ever used was an Apple II that was owned by a computer science Prof. Friend of my father's and who left this thing at my house for weeks on end and I could just play with it and do stuff. And so I became this Apple fanboy before I even knew what any other kind of computer was. It was, it was, it was, that was a computer to me. And, and so Apple has just always been this really important brand. And the chapter I have about Apple though in the book is called you're not Apple. Because I do find that when, you know, when I talk to clients. And I ask them who they want to emulate, like what is it that they, what drives them? What would they like to be like? It's always, well, you know, that's the first name that's going to come up. Is this always going to be Apple? And you can copy what Apple has done in terms of, you know, I think what I'm trying to do with that is to show, well, here's what you should emulate. Emulate their understanding of that dog brain. Emulate their understanding of how that ties in with the coveted condition. Because your buyers are aspirational human beings too. They're motivated by emotion and they're going to make decisions based on emotion. But they like anybody listening to this podcast, you're listening to this not just to pass time, but you're listening to this podcast because you want to be something better. You're hoping that Molina and hopefully I will give you some ideas that are going to help you get to a better place. You've already got that in your mind right now. And if you listen to a really good episode here, you're going to be able to, that is getting me there. And you're, you're going to feel that dopamine and you're going to be like, this is, I feel rewarded by this. I want more. Molina so it's, it really, really is. The most effective way to market is to get people to say I need that. But to get them there by giving them the stuff that feels good and by helping them to get to that long term desired future state, their coveted condition. And sometimes you have to put that in their mind. They don't necessarily know yet that they want to be that better version of themselves, but give them a taste of it. And, and that's all you've got to do. Give them a taste and let them feel that they can get there from here.
- [30:11]
A
Definitely. And I know like you, you give a lot of good and important stats in that Apple chapter about how like all the advantages that they had and like you, you can't possibly, you don't have the same brand equity. Like it's too far. You can't be that, like it doesn't exist. You can't be that thing. And so, and actually by wanting to be Apple is like the least Apple thing that you can do because they're not following people right in that idea there. One of the other aspects that I think there's such great, like metaphors, analogies, like little things that popped in throughout the book that I really love. And I also, I always enjoy short chapters with actionable takeaways. Perfect. Perfect for everybody. They're going to love this when they read it themselves. But one of the things as you try to find the right problem to solve, you want the thing to be able to do, like knowing that it's not and it's not enough to just be like, a little better than what they're doing now. And the how many times better you need to be, I think, is fascinating and important to share here in this. But also the idea of poking the bruise I really love. Can you share a little bit about that?
- [31:19]
B
The idea of poking the bruise. I'm trying to remember where that idea first came to me, but it just, when it did, it kind of grew on me and stuck with me. And I came to realize that bruises, they can be all big and purple, but they don't hurt most of the time. But if I know you've got a bruise on your shoulder and I'm going to come up to you and give you a poke on that bruise, it's going to bother you. And every time I do, you'll either punch me back or you're going to do something about it because it's not pleasant. And so, yeah, I came to call it that is recognizing. So people have these little bruises all over them. And, you know, to go back to Apple, when Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone, what he did was he talked about all these things. He said, you know, you've got a smartphone, but you don't like it. I know it. You've got, you know, you got the stylus, the silly stylus that you always lose. The touchscreen isn't really a touchscreen. You got to press on it ridiculously hard. The web browsing sucks. There's nothing good about this terrible, stupid smartphone you've got. But here's what I've got for you. This thing that you can aspire to have, too. And. And, you know, so you really poke that bruise of this is good enough to tell people, no, it's not good enough. And here's something so much better, you know, and this thing was literally at least 10 times better than what they had. So that was another thing you have to do is when you were talking about how much better does something have to be? And I think most people that are creating, you know, a new business or a new product or anything like that, they feel that it's just, it's got to be better. You know, twice as good would be lot like, but twice as good, especially if you're developing, developing a product twice as good as is the Kiss of Death. It's just we have so many. And I started writing this series about cognitive biases we have against change. These status quo biases, and there's so many of them that stack up, one on top of another, on top of another, on top of another, that there isn't a status quo bias. It's like everything about us is this compilation of status quo biases you have to defeat on the buyer end to get them to change their status quo and invest in something new, take the chance on something heck, if it's a new way of doing things and a new product maker, a new brand that's going to present this thing to them. So you've got all that stacked against you. And so essentially the theory is that you have to be at least 10 times better than the status quo to even have a chance. And that comes from that. The people making something, the innovators behind a new idea, a new product, tend to overweight the value of what they're doing by a factor of three. And there's a basic analysis of how you get to that. And the consumer tends to love and overvalue the status quo by a multiple of three as well. So those two threes come face to face and you get a factor of nine. And just to not end up at a stalemate, just to trigger a change, you have to be at least a 10. You have to be 10 times better than whatever is out there. It's really important to think about that. Once you start thinking about 10xing the value of what the person is already doing, it puts you in a different place mentally as well. I mean, now let's go in 20 exit. But don't double it. Don't just incrementally be better. And that's where products that have really made a difference. You know, Tesla is so controversial, but how did Tesla come out and make an electric car be desirable to people who were driving internal combustion engine vehicles and felt it was absolutely perfect, just fine? No problem with that is that they had to be a better driving experience. They had to have way better acceleration, more power, better interface, upgradable over the cloud. You know, it's just all this stuff where, you know, it was clearly and then built infrastructure for the thing. So it was, you know, clearly a 10x plus change to the game that had to be applied in that case.
- [35:18]
A
Definitely. And there are so many examples of that. When we look and see the things that really like, stand out and move the needle and that you have that like, I need that moment is. Yeah. It has to be so much better than that status quo. Because otherwise you're like, I mean, yeah, but. Right. It's so easy to just be kind of stuck in our own ways because we're wired that way, that that's how we're. We're made in, in that sense. So as we go to like get started, closing out the conversation, which I hate because I could talk to you forever and I know this will be the first of many conversations for us, but as we look at this and look through kind of like that framework and that model I know told you before we started recording, I would love if there's an example you're able to share maybe from an actual client you've worked with or a fictitious one, you know, if you put it together. But this kind of, if you walk through the process of like problem people come with how you would help ways to think about being the thing that people need. What would, what can you share to really make that feel actionable for someone who's ready to take those steps?
- [36:26]
B
For sure. And I've worked with a number of clients where that's the big challenge is they just have this sense that people are going to feel a need for the product just by seeing it and don't necessarily recognize what kind of a transformation needs to go on or what kind of decision making process has to happen in order to get the customer or their customer from seeing something and saying, oh, that looks kind of interesting to saying, wait, stop everything. I need that. And I think of a client that had a cooking product. It was called the Syra bq. And with this particular product, it was all the stuff that we were going to show. It was all around, or I should say that the original goals were. The original brief from the client to me was just showing the product. We were going to give some recipes and it was, it was just pretty much going to sell itself because it was, it cooked things, you know, twice as fast and with double the flavor. And I had a sense that just advertising it like that wasn't going to be too effective. And we did run all these ads that were just showing the product in use. And we, they had a funny commercial that they had another agency create. And it was, it was really quite funny, kind of edgy and it just went nowhere. And so what I actually did was I wanted to do a demonstration video. And they didn't have the budget to do a demonstration video. So I suggested, well, let's Just take one. One of these recipe videos that we're having. Let's take the one for steak and turn it into a commercial. So we cut that differently and we, you know, we cranked up the sound of the sizzling and used that one just as a test on. On our meta ads. And as soon as we started running those ads with the sizzle, with the cutting of the steak, with the, the. The images on that, the product took off. We sold a million dollars worth of product in about five months from something that wasn't selling at all. And it was just, you know, it was from. From zero to a very successful startup just like that, just with one video. Pretty much then that one video was, you know, it was. It was getting people emotionally, it was getting that dog brain fired up and getting them to see what they could savor and taste out of the product instead of just telling them it was going to be double the flavor in half the time, which wasn't as effective as anybody thought it was going to be. Because when people are barbecuing, they actually like that experience. They don't want to spend half the time doing it. Most of the time, if cooking a steak, that's. If I go outside and cook steak for my family on the grill, that's five minutes. So I'm not trying to find ways to shave time when I'm cooking stuff on the barbecue, usually, but if I show how much more delicious I can make it and I get people seeing and experiencing that. And there's also this image we also played on what the aspiration there is. You want to be a successful chef. So we talked about the consistency of the experience. You get it right every single time. No, more of my own personal experience is having to take, you know, chicken that looks great on the barbecue. It's even looks maybe overdone on the outside, but it's pink on the inside. Well, with this device, you didn't have that problem anymore. So it was. To me, that was one of my, my best examples that I've experienced of going from, okay, just selling the benefit and what you see is. Or what you see as being kind of the. The benefit, but when you show the outcome that you can achieve when you get the dog brain fired up, it's a very different outcome.
- [39:57]
A
That's so powerful too, I think, because people would be listening, be like, hey, like, as the creator of the thing, like, double the flavor half the time. Like, that's such a great tagline. They did it. They've nailed it, right? But like, nope, Not. Not the thing. Not gonna get you to move the needle in that way. And it sounds logically like it should, but there are so many things too, of, like, oh, yeah, that's just a thing you say, right? Sure. That's what it is. But then it's, like, too catchy in that way. Right. Like, and so you go, something's off, and I don't want to get that thing. I. I always think, too. Are you familiar with the Will it Blend? Series?
- [40:39]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. They blend. They blended all kinds of things.
- [40:43]
A
Yeah. I love Will it blend. Yeah. IPhones and different things where, like, to show how powerful this blender is and all the things with the, like, doubts we would have if people say it's like, 10 times better than whatever. And you. And you'll say, like, but what happens with ice? Because, you know, you've had an issue with your blender, hasn't been able, like, got dull or like, something went weird or whatever else, or it leaves big, solid chunks of things in there. And so, you know, doing that. Will it blend? So series and so, like, well, let's put in an iPhone into this thing. Will it blend? And let's put rocks or whatever. I mean, like, they put all sorts of crazy stuff in there, and it blends them into, like, a fine powder. And then they rinse it out and put in, and it will then blend, you know, a strawberry smoothie or whatever. And so it's still sharp. It very much makes the point to say, like, there is nothing you're going to put in this thing that's not going to work. So, like, get that doubt out of your mind. Right. And in a fun way that you want to share. Right. So that social proof and everything. I love that campaign.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah. The power of demonstration with a product that really works is the most effective thing you can do. Almost every time. Like, I think of Cutco super shares where they'd cut pennies into spirals at Costco stores, and there's no. Nothing you can do is going to sell more of these kitchen scissors than doing a demonstration like that and then showing that it's still sharp enough to cut other things, you know, even after doing something you thought maybe was impossible.
- [42:16]
A
Right? Yeah. Like, who's cutting a penny with a pair of scissors? That's not gonna happen. But you assume it's now busted, right?
- [42:22]
B
Yeah. There's no way that's sharp anymore.
- [42:25]
A
Right. Like, just kidding. Here we go. And like, don't get your finger in there because it's gone. That is the important lesson on those two. But so as we, you know, think about, there's so much amazing insight, so many tips, so much good stuff in the book. If you were going to share one other thing that you think is so important for people to know as they are looking to create the product that people need and can't wait to buy. You know what's one more thing you would want people to consider and think about?
- [42:56]
B
The one really important thing, and I kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but is validation is make sure you, especially if you're going and creating something that a lot is going to go into. Since I work in products, validation is the most important thing. Making sure objective people, those strangers out there really will think it's as good as you think it is and that they actually do want to solve the problem that you're solving as badly as you think they do. So doing that testing and I talk a lot. I've got a whole big section about the book on validation that you can apply to anything you do. But if you're going to go and invest in an idea, even big companies too often skip the validation step or do take shortcuts in it. Don't ask friends and family. Don't ask people who are going to say what you want to hear. And I even struggle with that when prospects talk to me and they say, what do you think of this idea? My gosh, do I don't want to tell them that I don't think it's going to take off. I really am, you know, even owing it to them, to be honest. I feel immense pressure to validate their idea for them. So you've got to find ways that people don't know you're seeking a certain response that you're not saying, you know, do you like this? Would you buy this? How much would you pay for this To a friend? And they're going to say, oh my gosh, it's a great deal at half the price, whatever number you're talking about. And they're going to give you a bigger number than they'd really pay. So validating, asking people for real money on whatever it is their idea is to find out. And it's good to prove to investors that you actually have people who are, we're really going to pay for something. But that's a whole different episode is to talk about validation. And to me it is, it's a super important thing when you've got a new idea is kind of drilling down and making sure that it is something that People value. And it's a great opportunity to improve your idea too. If you find that this isn't exactly what people want, find out what the real need is and try and address that. Come at that from a different angle and enjoy that exercise. Enjoy the. Rather than trying to prove your idea is great, find out what is a great idea out of it.
- [45:00]
A
Absolutely. And just even leaning back to what you were saying about the. The 3x and the 3x. Right. Like, in that way, they are even more compelled to tell you that they would buy it because they don't have to put any sort of skin in the game and it's just being nice to you in that moment and they don't know what they would do. Maybe I would buy it if once everything is ready to go. Right. So that is very much set up to fail. And I love the. That idea. It both when you brought it up earlier and then now since it came up again, I was reminded of one of my. What I think is such a good analogy. I heard about this when John List was on the show. We were talking about the voltage effect. He talks about. It's really compelling to try to like hide when you see there's like a fray in your sweater. Right. And you want to like hide that little string or do whatever I said, but you gotta pull at it. Right. And you know, it might unravel, but like you want to be the one to unravel the sweater and then you can go to fix it or you know that before you invest too much money and like, don't hide it. You gotta pull at the threads or snip it off.
- [46:04]
B
That's what I do.
- [46:05]
A
Yeah, Move on. You can. You can always knit it into something else that's just smaller. Right. If you go through that process, but it'll work better. So thank you again so much for joining me. As I said, and like you said, I mean, there's so much more we can talk about and unpack. I. I can't wait for the next conversation for everyone. Now who's so excited to go get their copy? Who's saying I need that about. I need that. What's their best path to go get their copy? To get in on these daily emails you're sending to follow you? What should they do?
- [46:33]
B
Yeah, just go over to Amazon. It's just search. I need that. And it'll come right up. It's a bright yellow and burgundy cover. And if you want to just go the easy route, go to lmandon. L M a n--I-n.com and sign up for my daily emails. You can unsubscribe anytime and I won't be disappointed or sad about it, but I might be a little sad. But my job there is not to sell you the book, but to bring you value every day, to move you forward in like one or two minutes a day, to nudge you incrementally forward. So after a year you'll have moved 365 steps forward. If I'm doing my job right. And tell me if I'm not. If there's things you want me to write about or if I'm getting boring, tell me that too. I really try not to be, but I love reader honesty and I get so much good input that that's, you know, that's the new thing that keeps me excited.
- [47:26]
A
Wonderful. Well, we will of course have links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone. And thank you again, Laurier, for joining me on the show. It was just awesome to chat with you today.
- [47:35]
B
Total pleasure.
- [47:37]
A
Thank you again to Laurier Mandon for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, the framing for a need and how it taps into our identity and aspirations was especially compelling. Laurier's idea of the coveted condition, that future version of ourselves we long to become, is such a valuable lens, don't you think? I love that language and how it just hits different than thinking about something being good or useful. But instead of thinking of that future, state what you're helping someone to become in a way that thinks about how they're dreaming about their future self. That coveted condition, it's just so powerful. We work with our clients here at the Brainy Business a lot on storytelling frameworks and the importance of knowing your role in a customer's journey. Of course, the customer's the hero. And where story, brand and other frameworks may end with just being a guide as your brand, we break it down into one of three roles. On the hero's journey, your brand is either the mentor, the sidekick, or the sword. And you need to know how that ties in when you layer yourself with being a value or a quality brand, layering in those key aspects of identity, habit formation and how brands can position themselves as a piece of that hero's journey as a critical core identity in that story is so key to great sales and proper pricing. And you have to know that the sidekick is going to talk differently than a mentor or a sword. And we love working on those sorts of projects. So if you want to learn more about that type of work and how you might be able to do that with us, Go ahead and reach out@the brainybusiness.com or send an email to Molina athebrainybusiness.com would love to hear from you. One more point that really stuck with me in today's episode that I keep thinking about is that for someone to adopt a new product, it needs to be 10 times better than what they're currently using. And that's such a huge hurdle, way more than what most people consider. But it makes perfect sense when someone already has a solution, even an imperfect one. The effort of switching brings friction and you are gonna love your baby more than someone on the outside will. So your product or service has to offer not just a small improvement, but a dramatic, emotionally resonant leap forward. And that's where the need kicks in. Not just I guess this is better, but I can't not have this. So I'll ask how is your product or message offering that kind of transformation? What emotional job is it helping people to do? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 535. And thank you again to Laurier Mandan for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
- [51:04]
B
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com it.