← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
545. Epic Disruptions: Uncovering the Innovations That Shaped Our World
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- [00:01]
A
Hey there, Melina. Here. Really quickly, before we get into the episode, if you've ever wanted to level up your goals or your communication, I've got great news. Two of my most popular courses through Texas A and M's Human Behavior Lab are open now for enrollment. Setting brainy goals helps you to actually achieve those big plans, not just write them down and forget about them. And creating better presentations will totally transform the way you communicate at work and in meetings or on stage. They're part of the certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics. But you don't have to commit to the entire program to join either of these classes. There are no prerequisites, no fluff, just three weeks, all virtual directly with me and some other brainy folks from around the world. If you're interested to learn more and enroll, head to hbl like Human Behavior Lab, TAMU like Texas A and M University Edu, and click on certificate program to learn more and enroll again. That's hbl, tamu Edu and click on certificate program. I can't wait to see you in class. And when you're ready, let's start the show. Welcome to episode 545 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Scott Anthony, author of Epic 11 Innovations that Shaped Our Modern World. Ready? Let's get started.
- [01:40]
B
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [01:56]
A
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. Take a moment to look around you at something totally ordinary, like a diaper, a recipe, or a fast food chain. Would it surprise you to learn that it potentially quietly and completely reshaped the world? Today? We tend to only think of app launches and flashy pitch decks when it comes to disruptive innovation. But things we take for granted now were once massive innovations. And that's the kind of disruption we're talking about today. You know, the word disruption gets thrown around a lot these days, especially in the context of AI and emerging tech. But most people misunderstand what it really means, how it starts, and what makes it stick. And that's where today's guest comes in. I'm excited to introduce you to Scott Anthony, a seasoned innovation expert and co founder of innisight. And Scott had the opportunity to work closely with Clayton Christensen. You've potentially heard his name or maybe one of his many books, including the Innovator's Dilemma, Scott brings a sharp, engaging perspective on the patterns behind how real transformation unfolds and how people, businesses and industries can learn from the past to reduce their risk of being left behind. His latest book, epic disruptions, explores 11 moments in history that quietly but radically shifted the way we live, learn, and lead. As you listen today, I invite you to think about this. What's one behavior or process in your own life or business that might be so familiar, so embedded, that you haven't even considered how it could be reframed to serve you better really quickly? Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes, books, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 545. Now let's jump right in. Scott Anthony, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
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B
Melina I am thrilled to be here. Looking forward to the conversation. Yay.
- [04:03]
A
Oh, me too. And our pre chat got me even more excited, if that was possible. I don't think it is, but really, really thrilled to be able to chat with you today. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [04:19]
B
Well, I'll do the professional bio. There's a lot more I could say, but I'm a professor of strategy at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth College. My focus is on how do you navigate the very complex challenges of disruptive change? And of course, my most recent book is Epic Disruptions, talking all about 11 innovations that shaped our modern world.
- [04:38]
A
Yeah. So innovation and disruption. I know you had the opportunity to work with some big names in the space. Can you share a little bit about how you even got into the space? Were you always interested in disruption? Did you kind of stumble upon it? And innovation and getting to work with clay? How'd that all kind of come together?
- [04:59]
B
I can actually trace the origin story of my interest to a specific date. So it was October 21st in the year 2000. So 25 years ago, I was taking this class that Clay Christiansen was teaching at the Harvard Business School called Building and Sustaining a Successful Enterprise. And on that date, and I can place the date because I was on a plane to go to Phoenix to go meet my friend Chris and see the band Pearl Jam. That was to be my fourth Pearl Jam concert. I've now seen them 24 times. So, yes, I am a fan. On that trip, I read Clay's book the Innovator's Dilemma. And it was one of these moments in my life where it just all came together. I could suddenly see my own family's history in a different way. I could understand back when I was a management consultant at my young age, I could understand clients in a different way. I looked at my classes in a different way. It was like a new set of lenses had been given to me and all of a sudden the world was crystal clear. So I didn't quite at that moment say, okay, I will dedicate my life too. But that was the moment when I began the journey that led to 25 years of exploring the idea of disruptive change.
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A
Oh, I love that. And hey, as a Seattle girl, you know, Pearl, Jamie, nice. But so we've got the aspect there. So you find the book, you jump in and realize this is something you're so into, you're excited about. How does that then turn into. Of course, Clay had many students and people he worked with over the years. How were you? Just more excited than everyone else, I guess.
- [06:34]
B
So what happened was right around then. So I get back from the trip to Phoenix and the band puts on a good show. As it does, timeless melody is played for one of the few times it plays live. Anyway, that's distracting. But I get back and, you know, going through the first term of my second year, it's a two year program. So, you know, in my head is, what am I going to do next? And Clay says, you know, I've got some funding from the school. I can hire a researcher or two. You will drag down the average salary of the graduating class because the researcher does not pay as much as going back to McKinsey where I started my career, or going to work at a software company where I had an offer. But I thought, why not? This is a moment in life where I could do something really different. And I really thought Clay's ideas were incredibly powerful. So I said, let me go and spend a year. It ended up being two. As his research associate, we wrote a book together called Seeing what's Next. He had founded this little consulting company called in a site. I decided in 2003 to join that the next 20 years roughly was working for that consulting company before I made a big switch into teaching in 2022. So it was really that opportunity to do research directly with Clay that started really down the path. And why exactly I decided to do it, I don't know. It just sounded cool. Why not?
- [07:51]
A
I said the serendipity and good opportunity to be able to jump in and try something even. I mean, I think in so many ways, potentially inspired by what you saw in the cases of innovation and disruption, right, where it would be easy to just go back to the safe choice at McKinsey, because that had been working and, you know, that's a proven path, but, you know, disrupted your own life, I guess, in many ways. In a way that worked out quite well for anyone who isn't familiar with maybe they've heard of the innovators dilemma or the, you know, some of this other work, but haven't read the book. But they'll add that to their list to read after epic disruptions, of course. What can you share a little bit about, you know, this piece of innovation disruption, defining those terms for people, just like in the way that it works really should be looked, looked at. And that approach of how it's like kind of shaped business and our lives over the years.
- [08:48]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the reasons why I ended up writing the book. So in 2022, Harvard Business Review said, here are four ideas that have transformed the world of business throughout all of history. So there's shareholder value maximization, there is scientific management, there's emotional intelligence, and then there is disruptive innovation. So if you go back to the innovator's dilemma, that was Clayton Christensen's first book. It essentially summarized his doctoral research. His doctoral research started with what I think is one of the best questions you could possibly ask. His question was, why is it that sometimes smart, really well run companies do everything that looks right and still fail? That is a great question. Why stupid companies fail is an obvious question. They fail because they are stupid. Why smart companies fail is a juicy question. And what Clay discovered is every once in a while, there's someone that changes the innovation game. They don't make things better through traditional means. They go and compete differently, they make it simpler, they make it more affordable, they make it more accessible. It's in plain sight. The market leader can see it. But for lots of reasons, they don't allocate resources towards it. We one reason why this connected so much with me, a personal experience. Back when I was an undergraduate student, I was the managing editor of our college newspaper. It was 1994. It was the year that Marc Andreessen and team introduced the Netscape browser. So you had this really disruptive change in media where people could get content online. And the first thing we did at the newspaper was to hesitate. We said, well, we don't have that many resources. We can't invest in this new technology. And, and then when we got over that, we did not think about all the new things we could do. Instead, we said, can we make it easier for people to access the print version of the newspaper? So we didn't allocate the resources. We didn't reimagine the business. That's the innovator's dilemma. You do what feels right and it ends up being wrong.
- [10:53]
A
Right. And when you are the. The incumbent, the market leader, it's that much harder to do. And like, the, you know, there's an obvious thing that people talk about a lot being where like Kodak invented essentially the digital printing process. And they, you know, the story being that someone said to squash it, like, that's cute, but don't tell anybody. Of course, then, like, bummer, right? Like, it obviously didn't work out, you know, super well for them. But that I think maybe is the case people are familiar with. And it's not one of the 11 that you really showcase in the book. So how did you come to tell the book in this way of stories? I know you also, maybe we do a little sidestep to say you pitched the book differently to start with, so however you choose to approach that. But, you know, looking at this through the lens of these 11 innovations that you talk about, like how. How to pick those and. And what are some key stories that people can learn from from your seat?
- [12:01]
B
Well, let me start with just a little bit of origin story. So it was 2023. I had started teaching, and I was teaching this class called Leading Disruptive Change and having a lot of fun teaching it. So I went to my publisher, Harvard Business Review Press, and my editor, Kevin Evers, and said, I've got an idea for you. I want to do this book based on what I teach in the class. I. Kevin said, that sounds nice. We published a couple books that feel kind of similar to that. And anyway, we had a brainstorming session and we have kind of a seed of an idea for you. And the idea, of course, ultimately became epic disruptions. The idea was go and interrogate the history of disruption by telling deep stories about disruption in history. And I thought, when I heard it, I thought, gosh, that is a really interesting idea. I've been thinking about disruption at this point for more than 20 years, but I still have some really open questions, and the world still misunderstands pieces of disruption really deeply. So maybe taking a Different approach where we go and look at deep history will show us something that we haven't seen before and find new ways to communicate the concept. So I was hooked and decided to go and do it. The 11 was kind of a organized random walk, if that makes sense.
- [13:15]
A
So.
- [13:15]
B
So I went back to Clay's second book, the Innovator's Solution. He had a compendium of every disruptive innovation that he and his co author, Michael Rayner, could identify in history. I went for ones that I thought would be interesting stories and would teach a lot and then did a little bit of external searching to come up with a couple extra ones, tried to get some good historical representation, and we ended up with the 11. Why 11 versus 10? Well, it was a quiet inside joke. I'm a huge fan of the movie Spinal Tap. And of course, In Spinal Tap One Ladder, it goes to 11. Little did I know when I was doing this that Spinal Tap 2 would come out roughly the same time as epic disruptions, which I just think is a sign of something from the universe, who knows what. So that's the origin story and that's how the case studies performed.
- [14:02]
A
Oh, my gosh. Funny, so many of the little side mentions that I'm like, oh, my gosh. So I'm a vocalist and my choir director in high school, also very much loved this is Spinal Tap and so familiar with that. But I have to. Haven't actually seen it, so I will. But I know lots of things from it. So that'll come into the mix of nostalgia there. And actually, for the sake of having that specificity, 11 feels actually more truthful to people than 10. It feels like you had to pick something versus that, you know, friend Richard shot in his book is about 16 and a half, you know, principle pulls of behavioral economics. So. So there's. There's some, you know, behavioral stuff in there too, I'm sure. So you picked the 11, I'm sure. Started like you said, there was this long list going through. And as people would think about them, even if they think about, like, you think, listener, you know, the history of where this might have started. If you were to go all the way, all the way back to these innovations, I bet you you wouldn't make it back to gunpowder and to, you know, the printing press for the Gutenberg Bible. Right. And I think people listening wouldn't think about the human elements and the individuals that tie in as well as companies. Right. So Florence Nightingale and Julia Child and like, they would have, like, okay, iPhone, sure. Right. Like that makes it in there, but also like, why McDonald's and not something else, Right. All these amazing and cool stories. So what are the. If you were going to pick one to be a representative story to share a bit about, what might you like to share with the kind of audience about how it really showcases this and can show the depth of one of these stories?
- [15:49]
B
It's a very hard question to ask. We were talking before the show about our children, as you often do. I've got four children. That's like asking which is your favorite child. I love them all. I love all 11 of the chapters. Since I used the word child in the answer, I will say probably my favorite is the chapter on Julia Child, partially because I think it's unexpected. I didn't fully expect it. It kind of was this thing that got in my head. At some point I started looking at it. I'm like, oh, this is really good. And there's a lot of depth to it and it's really interesting. Three reasons why I picked that one. Number one, it allows us to understand what disruptive innovation is in a way, really simple way. So what did Julia Child disrupt? Well, if you go back to before her first book, Mastering the Art of French Cooking with Simca Beck and Louisette Berthold, if you wanted to enjoy a great French meal in America, you were pretty much out of luck. Unless you got on a plane and flew to France, it just wasn't available. So Mastering the Art of French Cooking took something that was complicated, expensive and inaccessible and made it simple, affordable and accessible. That is disruptive innovation. Is it as good as going to a great restaurant in Paris? No, of course not. But something in many cases is better than nothing. So that's number one. Number two, it helps to showcase one of the most persistent patterns that you see in all the studies of disruption. And that is you get big rewards if you're patient and you persevere. So 1951, Julia Child meets who turned out to be her two co authors. They go and sign a book deal. It's 10 years until the book comes out. There's three different publishers. There are two near death experiences. When first her publisher, Hoffton Mifflin says, no way can we publish this. You've written 750 pages just about sauces and, and fish. When is this thing going to end? Redo the book. She does it, gives it to Hofflin Mifflin, and they say, you know what? It's still too complicated. We can't publish this. This is after eight years, found a third Publisher. The book ultimately comes out. It's a big success. But again, the point is you have to persevere, often through long struggles. Then the third reason why I like the Julia Child story is, is because there's a person at the center of it. This is something that I really learned from my research. I used to say, Apple did this, Nvidia did this, Microsoft did this. No company in the history of the world has ever done anything. It's people who do things. Julia Child is a person. She followed particular behaviors. And those behaviors are things that any of us can do. We can be curious, we can be experimental. We can, we can persevere through struggles. These are things that we have the capabilities to do. It makes it more human, therefore, makes it more accessible. There's more that I could say about Julia Child. Much more. At one point, the chapter was almost 11,000 words long. It got edited down a lot in the process, which is good. But those are the three main reasons why I picked that one.
- [18:58]
A
Oh, I also really loved that one. And I think just even for anybody, like these days, everyone kind of has to be a thought leader in some, some way, right? You're sharing content out in the world. You're trying to stand out in a sea where people are doing the same things and, and whatnot. And knowing that really, like, as you talk about one of those original influencers really being Julia Child and being on television, and I've always been pretty fascinated with her story as well. And of course, you know, got the couple movies and, you know, shows and things that you can see some of it. But also knowing, like, if anyone was going to go and say, who's going to be the tv? Start. Start it all like, you know, it's not Julia Child. Like, if you could pick her in groups of, you know, a million times, you would never have picked her. But the, like, realism of it, the way that she, like you said, persevered, but also just like, I'm going to be me and I'm going to do the thing. And, um, people just can really see that, I think. And the, the mind for the business and, and sticking it out where everybody else says you can't, but you keep, keep going. I, you know, it's just really, really cool story. So.
- [20:18]
B
And just to add a couple details to what you described, you know, she was 6 foot 2, which is an unusual height today. You go back to when she was born, now more than 100 years ago, and even more unusual heights. Her voice was described by one of her biographers as A warble. It was not a voice that was meant for television or for radio. And she couldn't cook. So one of the stories from one of her biographies is the nephew. One of the. I'm sorry, the son of her brother. Of her husband's brother. Son of her husband's brother wrote a letter saying that when she first came to visit, the word around the house was she couldn't boil a pot of water. So in her early days, she really struggled to actually cook. The first time she took an exam at the famous Les Cordon Bleu cooking school, she failed. So this is not somebody who, as you said, was clear from day one that she was going to do these things, but she had a passion. She followed that passion, and she persevered and had amazing impact.
- [21:17]
A
Yeah, I think, too, there's so much of serendipity in that particular story as well. And the, you know, whether you want to say luck, serendipity, what have you. Right. But. So where she comes back into America realizing, like, what do people actually have access to that you don't have in France? What are real human people that would be trying to do this? They're struggling with the size of the oven or they're going to deal with what they can get at the market. Like, being able to really think about the actual American housewife that is trying to do these things and present information for her or for her, the reader. Right. Being able to do that and say, saying, like, hey, we're gonna separate out. I learned this in your book. As far as the ingredients on one side and, like, what you do on the other side. Julia Child innovation. Like, thank you, Julia Child, you know, for making that work.
- [22:09]
B
And it is a reminder that everything comes from someone. So that was. I like that fact, and I'd like to tell it at cocktail parties. And the world does not exist because there's some master plan and some faceless person. At some point, someone said, why are we doing it this way? Couldn't we do it differently? Doesn't this make more sense? And then in hindsight, it's obvious. I have a footnote in that chapter that talks about wheels on luggage, which you look at it now, it's like, why did it take until the 1970s until people did it? Well, you know, people didn't travel as much, and the people who were traveling were relatively wealthy, so they had people who would carry their bags for them. So the problem with. Wasn't as apparent as it became when lots more people started traveling. But still, it took someone Coming up with that idea and doing it. And why can't it be me or you or any of your listeners who does something similar? There's no reason why it can't be.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah, Yep, definitely. And I think the timing piece, too, just as you think about some of these elements of, like, something might not work because you're too early or. Or whatnot as well. And so the where it was 10 years of working on the book that was an overnight success. Right. As happens with so many of these stories, but also the same bringing in a French chef to the White House at the time that the book was coming out. It was really close, right? It was within a couple months.
- [23:33]
B
It was almost overlapping in 1961. And you know, it. Also, in those 10 years, you had the television really take off as a communications medium. And of course, one reason why we remember Julia Child is not just her writing, but because she did all the fantastic things on tv. And it just turned out, as you said, she had kind of a knack for being on camera. Just very natural. Looked directly at the camera. When she screwed something up, she didn't stop. She just kind of rolled with it like you would if you were a normal person in a kitchen. And people just found it incredibly relatable. And had the book come out in 1953, as was originally planned, who knows? Maybe that doesn't happen because there's not as much TV as there was in 1961. And beyond, impossible to know. But timing, of course, really plays a part in all of these things. That's another theme that runs through the book. I say that if you go and look at the stories, disruption is predictably unpredictable. There are always twists and turns and unexpected things, but there are basic patterns you can see. So it's not Newtonian physics, it's not deterministic. But there are things that you can do to tilt the odds in your favor, like running good experiments. And as you describe, putting yourself in the shoes of your customers, making sure you don't look too inwards if you're inside an organization, because then you have the Kodak moment you were talking about before and so on. So patterns and principles you can follow. Not necessarily a checklist or rules or even, dare I say, a recipe.
- [25:05]
A
Nice. I like that. So for someone who now, you know, we have these disruptive. Whether it's technology or anything else happening, you know, feels like much more frequently and AI being at the forefront of what's, you know, conversations of today. But how can someone tell, like, if they are on the inside like, what advice would you give to that senior leader, you know, someone in the C suite versus a manager or a small business owner, kind of anybody to be able to see? Well, we'll start with that someone who's more likely to be disrupted than to be the disruptor. Right. But like, so how can you tell that this is a thing I should really pay attention to and jump? Like, if you're Kodak, how do you know to lean in versus to wait it out? Because there are plenty of fads that don't turn into anything. So what's the advice there for people to jump at the right time?
- [26:03]
B
For sure. So the general advice I give is look for the three building blocks that you see in every disruption. Number one, you see the market looking for something different. Number two, you see the provision of something different where you've got something that is trading up your performance and giving something different. Simplicity, affordability, convenience and so on. And number three, you find somebody who is making money in ways that look uncomfortable and unfamiliar to you. You see those three things. It means that there's a reasonable chance that this is one you ought to pay attention to. Now, the key thing in this is it rarely shows up day one, right in the middle of your mainstream market. As an example, 1947, a trio of researchers in Bell Labs come up with the transistor. It ushers in ultimately the modern computing age. Everything we use now depends on the transistor. But that's not where it starts. Because in the beginning, like any disruptive innovation, it's got new benefits. It's small, it's rugged, it doesn't give off heat. But it's got some downsides. It's not totally reliable, you have to re architect systems around it, etc. So where does it start? Well, it starts in hearing aids. It used to be that people would have a battery pack that had vacuum tubes in it that they would carry on their waist. The transistor is a great replacement for a vacuum tube there. It's a simple design, it's easy to replace it. Vacuum tubes give off a ton of heat. You don't want that on your waist. So you have something that it's a perfect market for an imperfect product. Now, if you're a mainstream incumbent in the communications world or in the device world, you're not looking at the hearing aid market because it looks minuscule and insignificant. But those are the places where disruption typically starts. So you look for the ingredients, you look in, out of the way places, you increase the odds you're Going to see it.
- [27:58]
A
That's like one of the things I talk with people about all the time, too, is as you think about bringing that customer, some of that human element into things, right? So from the side of who's going to use this, why, how big can it get? Are we ripe for being disrupted here? Right. But if you look at, like, it's so easy when you're in a company to just see that, like, we offer this thing and it does this, and this is how we help people, and this is where they use it, and they can't compete with us in this, right? But, like, but people maybe don't actually want that thing. You know, this is where there's the, you know, classic HBR article going back to the buggy whips, right? So, like, if we say we're in the, like, spirit of making buggy whips, that's what we do. Like, great. Like, now that there are cars, nobody wants that. So, like, your market's gone, right? But if instead you say we make things go, you know, you can think about things in a different way. I think the example with the iPhone and talking about, like, how you think about the problem and you think about the solution that you're providing for people and saying, like, well, if you think about it as disrupt, is it going to disrupt phones? Maybe not. But even Clay, I guess, thought at one point that iPhone wasn't going to be as big as it was because. And saying, like, thinking about the disruption differently and putting it in a different category of what it can be doing.
- [29:21]
B
For people, it's so important, the things that you said here, you know, so it was Ted Levitt in the article Marketing Myopia back in the 1960s.
- [29:29]
A
Yeah, one of my favorites.
- [29:31]
B
You have to ask the question, what business are we really in? And when you define yourself by the product and its attributes, you will always miss things. Looking at things through the eyes of the end consumer and asking, what problem do people hire our solution to solve? What job are they trying to get done? That's a really key thing that you need to do. Buggy whips. Going back to that, there was a company that made buggy whips and saddles and all that, that saw what was going on when the automobile came and said, you know what? There are other things that we can take our capabilities around, using leather and other materials and crafting things to make suitcases and bags and so on. And that's the Hermes origin story. So, you know, they're there and they're seeing the same thing that Other people are saying, but they say, how do we reframe and see the opportunity in this? And it really does require looking at things through different lenses. And it is not easy. So 2007, Apple's getting ready to launch the iPhone. Clayton Christensen says, through my theory, this looks like a late entrant in an established market of mobile phones. Therefore, I predict it will fail. And he was horrifically wrong, because, again, he framed it as a mobile phone. Steve Jobs was wrong. He framed it as a mobile phone. He was asked, what is the killer app of the iPhone? And he said, well, it's the ability to make and receive phone calls. But that's not what left the iPhone be the iPhone. It was the App Store. It was having a computer in your pocket. But here's the thing people forget. The App Store was was not in the first version of the phone. The first version of the Apple iPhone was actually pretty limited and didn't sell that many units. It was only when Steve Jobs was convinced to add the App Store to the ecosystem that things really took off. There's a lot in this. So we miss things when we look at the snapshot. We miss things when we have the wrong frame for things. We really have to step back and look at things to understand how change will take place. And I have lots of empathy and I've worked with lots of business leaders because this is really hard and you and your listeners understand so well why. Because we're humans and we are wired in certain ways. We have confirmation bias. We see what we expect to see. When there's failures in the past, we say, well, that was dumb luck. The successes are due to our brilliance. The fundamental attribution error means we overstate our capabilities and on and on and on. It is a really deep rock, really persistent problem, definitely.
- [31:58]
A
And I have episodes both on confirmation bias and fundamental attribution error that we can have linked in the show notes for People. And we talked a little bit about the, you know, kind of functional fixedness is where I put the buggy whips problem too. So so many of these things, we get stuck in that status quo and how we've done things. Like you said, our successes are because we're great and the failures are because of something out there that happened, which it's easy to see that in other people. We don't necessarily see it in ourselves as often as we should. And I loved that, you know, even in the story with the iPhone, that there's this. I think, throughout the whole book, you do a really great job of showing how, like, this one paved the way for this other thing. Or remember we talked about that when you learned about the printing press, like, that actually matters here again. And, like, when we're talking about the iPhone and the, you know, corningware invention from however many decades before that, like, sat on a shelf somewhere that became the glass that's in all the iPhones and, like, good on them to have made that invention. But it didn't do anything, really, for a long time until somebody needed it. So there is that patience and kind of just digging deeper. And like you say, there are humans at the center of all of it, like, where there's the person, right? Like Julia Child or Florence Nightingale or Steve Jobs. And it can't happen, like, all on its own with nothing happening. Right. There's all these other innovations things are building upon. And like, finding the right thing in an area that is often just, like, so disparate, right? Like, they're not connected, but you had to find it to realize what you can do, to innovate there. I just. I love all this stuff too, right? And seeing all. One of my very favorite books is a more beautiful Question by Warren Berger. And this, like, as you look in different areas and ask all these questions, I. That. That's what got me really interested in this space. So I saw a lot of similarities through your book of, you know, tying all these things together and all the stories and can just tell how much work went into that research and that process.
- [34:08]
B
You've hit on another one of the themes that runs through the part of the book saying that innovation disruption is predictably unpredictable. The predictable part of it is that magic happens at intersections when you have different mindsets and backgrounds colliding. And I think the printing press story shows that really well. Where the question is, why was it Gutenberg in Germany? Well, he was doing his work in Strasbourg. There were a lot of presses in the area. They were used for wine, not for printing. But the technology is there. There's a big engraving industry there. People are putting things on bells which can be used for molds. It's a big trade route. So you got lots of people coming through. There's a big outpost of the Catholic Church, which was his first customer. So you had all the different pieces. And at those intersections, Gutenberg was able to make magic. And I hope through the writing, I'm having intersections of ideas across time where people can then see, oh, this really is a pattern that applies across hundreds of years, across really different stories that I can then pick up and use. Because that's one of the reasons to do the book. We are in an era now where, as you said, it's happening faster, it's happening more frequently. 1620, Sir Francis Bacon, in his magnum opus opus, Sorry, Novan Organum, said, in world history, three innovations have been ones where you can draw a line before and after the printing press, gunpowder, and the compass. In world history today, I can get to four without leaving the letter A. Autonomous vehicles, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and artificial meats and artificial proteins. And I haven't, again, gotten past the letter A. So the world is a really different, more complex world, which means the timeless stories have a fierce urgency to them because they help us make sense of what can sometimes seem overwhelmingly complex.
- [36:02]
A
Yeah, definitely. And I love that. And I think there is so much to learn in the stories themselves, as we were saying here. And you do a really nice job of helping guide the reader to see, like, this is something to remember. And like, don't forget this may feel familiar because. Right. You're. You're helping those themes stand out for people as they're learning the principles in a way that whether you're brand new to this and it's your first book in this space, or you've read all the other ones and it's just new, there's definitely so much depth in those stories and the way that you bring them together that there's something for everyone in there for sure. So I'm really excited for everyone to get their copy of Epic Disruptions and to learn like I did in this. As you look to. Let's imagine it's. We'll say it's 20 years from now, and you've been asked to do a revised version, and now we want 12 disruptions. Right. What do you think would be something that's kind of on the horizon, that is out there for people that you might want to write about or things to be looking for that would be making it in the future version of the book.
- [37:15]
B
Well, Spinal Tap, of course, is. We have to include Spinal Tap. But beyond Spinal Tap, the conclusion of the book, what I try to do there is say, okay, there are 10 chapters that have things in them. Can we now have things that echo off each of those chapters? So the first chapter is Gunpowder. Let's look at Clean Tech, because there's energy in both of those things. And that's one that I think is a good answer to the question where you are seeing some things that are obvious now. The rapid decrease in solar cells and wind turbines in some Countries at least really driving huge growth in new technologies. And some small things at the fringe where you've got new forms of nuclear power through modular reactors, you've got direct carbon capture technologies, you've got ideas around geoengineering, which still are incredibly fringe and nascent and inclusive. Classic disruptive fashion are not yet good enough for mainstream applications. But you fast forward 20 years and you could see a very different world. Or McDonald's is one of the chapters in the book, the modern echo is what I called new food, which is lab grown meat, alternative proteins and so on. Again, you've got some things that are there. There are things that are kind of at the edge of your supermarket, most supermarkets at least. Or things that aren't yet in supermarkets where you could imagine 20 years from now going to a McDonald's, you have a very different experience. I actually the first version of the book that I wrote, the conclusion was speculative fiction where I imagined the world of 2050 and I imagine my children in that world which everybody who read it hated it. So it got shelved. But I had fun writing it. But what I did for the McDonald's chapter is I said I could imagine 20 years from now we go out for a family meal at McDonald's and if you want to get a actual hamburger that's made of cow, you could still get it, but you have to pay a massive price premium for it because most of the products are now things that are created artificially. They're cheaper and they're better. But if for some reason you want the vinyl equivalent, you can go and buy the actual old school product. And I could very much see that happening. Obviously there's a lot of steps between here and there, but I think that is something that is a very possible outcome. There's more, but those two clean tech and new food I think are ones that are still quite niche and quite fringe today, but could be epic disruption featured in the 20/ Whatever, 2045 edition.
- [39:42]
A
I love it. The, the new food is so fascinating too. That's in the book. I had the authors of the book Proximity on talking about this and that's where I was first hearing about, you know, 3D printed meat. I'm thinking what about this? But I actually one an influencer I like from YouTube who does a lot of weightlifting and things. He actually ate a 3D printed steak like as part of the show that he had some and seen like it's there but where you can think about then the innovation sites, if you think about like McDonald's as like, well, not everybody's gonna want this. It's not a thing. And why would we do that? But when you look at people who are really paying attention to macros and the protein and carb level that you need, and you can say, like, this is the Molina steak because it has what I need for my weight training goals, like, that's really nice. Like, I would pay for that. There are other people who would, too. But if you think just about mass market, but that, like, side space is something that is actually very big, and there are a lot of people that would be interested in investing in it if you frame it in that right way. Right. About achieving your goals for your body type and where you can be adjusting, you know that in. So, yeah, I think there's a lot to learn there too.
- [41:03]
B
You know, I was with an executive of a big food company, and they said, you know, I'm always on the lookout for early signs of change. And say, we've got GLP1 inhibitors that are used now by 15% of the population by some counts. You've got smart connected devices that are throwing off all sorts of data about your body. You got people who are using continuous blood glucose monitors to get really detailed information about the impact of food on their glucose levels and so on. And this company makes a lot of money from selling not super good for you snack foods. And it's like Red Alarm. I mean, our sales are great now, but you see these things put together and you say, we've got to be paying real attention and have to think about what are the new things that we put in our portfolio that get ahead of trends like this. And that's one of the most important, important things. I teach this to my students in my class. I call it the Information Action paradox, which is a mouthful, but the basic idea is by the time the data are clear telling you what to do, it's too late to act on the data. So you have to act, paradoxically, when the data tells you not to. You have to act when the data tells you not to, which means you're looking for weak signals and you've got a good theory or model, like disruptive innovation, in my view, to make sense of it. And that's what it takes to be a leader these days.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah. In the randomness of the world, I feel like we can call this the Wayne Gretzky paradox. Right. You gotta skate to where the puck's gonna be.
- [42:30]
B
Exactly right. Perfectly put.
- [42:34]
A
So easy to say, Difficult to do right as we look at these. So with that in mind as we go to close out the conversation here. If you were going to give one piece of advice for people for things that they would be learning from the book or just kind of, you know, the spirit that's there, you know, what's one thing in addition to, you know, buy the book, read the book. We'll have links in the show notes for that. But what do you hope that people would learn? How might they think differently? What's like one key thing for them to do?
- [43:05]
B
You know, the line is, history may not repeat, but it certainly rhymes. And that's the thing that I hope people take from the book, that there is a timelessness to the stories that gives them a new way to understand the fiercely urgent moment we're in right now where you can say, of course it's not exactly the same, but I see something that's a parallel that helps me make sense of things. So I did not study history. I studied economics, that I went and got my mba. But now I see the people who were studying history. I see what they were onto. The history is an indispensable guide to make sense of a complex present and then create a positive future.
- [43:43]
A
Yeah, definitely. And I love that. Whether it's the like, anthropology, ethnography, like digging in, in the history and asking those why questions as you start to unearth these stories. I am very inspired whenever I see a book like this one where it digs into a thing that, like, everyone knows about the thing, but you still find new things that, that we didn't know from, you know, that research process. I, I aspire to do such things one day. Well, thank you again, Scott, so much for your time, for coming onto the show, for writing this amazing book for everyone to be able to learn from. Like I said, we'll put links in the show notes to make it easy. But for everyone who's so excited to follow you, to learn more, maybe to work with you, you know, what's their best path to do any of those things.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah. Thanks, Melina. This has been a great conversation. I feel like we could go on for another few days about many of these topics, but LinkedIn is the network that I hang out on most of the time because there are a bunch of Scott Anthony's, if you throw in a tuck, epic disruptions, whatever, you will find me. And there is a website, epicdisruptions.com that has a compendium of all the podcasts and articles and other fun stuff related to the book.
- [45:02]
A
Perfect. Like I said, we will make sure to link it in the show notes so people find the right Scott Anthony on LinkedIn and can go from there. So again, thank you so much for joining me. It's been delightful to chat with you today.
- [45:13]
B
My pleasure. Thanks for the time.
- [45:17]
A
Thank you again to Scott Anthony for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always love digging in on real stories from the past, especially when they reveal new angles and that aren't as commonly known. And I of course love how Scott's work reinforces that real disruption doesn't usually start with a breakthrough. It starts with behavior. Whether it's Julia Child changing how we learn or Pampers changing the way people buy diapers, disruptive innovations are ultimately about making things easier, more intuitive and more human. That's behavioral economics in action. Reducing friction, tapping into identity, making the unfamiliar feeling feel familiar, and just really understanding real human people out there and the way that they act and think and behave. And as Scott said, the best ideas often look like toys at first until they ripple out and reshape entire industries. You're going to be able to hear about so many of these. As we said, you know, from the title, there are 11 of them in the book. But being able to understand that deep level of what happened, why it happened, how it can apply to you, things to learn, how it relates to what's on the horizon, you know, echoes of these items. It's such a fascinating read. I really highly recommend it. And before you head out there today, one more thing for you to consider. You know, what's one small, weird or easily dismissed idea in your world that might actually be a spark of transformation? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere. And as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links for related past episodes and books, including epic Disruptions, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 545 and thank you again to Scott Anthony for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
- [47:35]
B
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers Virtual Strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.