551. The Power Trap: Understanding How Leadership Shapes Our Minds

Summary

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The Brainy Business Podcast | Ep. 551

The Power Trap: Understanding How Leadership Shapes Our Minds

Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Nick Kinley (psychologist, leadership expert, author of “The Power Trap”)
Date: November 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Melina Palmer interviews Nick Kinley about his new book, The Power Trap, exploring how leadership and power fundamentally change the human mind—often in ways organizations don’t anticipate. The discussion unpacks the psychological effects leadership roles have on individuals, why otherwise competent people in power stumble, and how both individuals and organizations can proactively guard against the downsides of power while keeping its benefits.

Central Question:
Which of the six common effects of power do you see most in your world, and which one might be quietly shaping your own decisions?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nick Kinley’s Unique Background and Fascination with Power

• [03:57] Kinley shares his career path from sales and marketing to forensic psychotherapy in prisons, then into corporate consulting and leadership assessment globally.
• Authored nine books around leadership and behavior, focusing on the dynamic between individuals and their environments.
• Interest in power emerged from noticing how often leaders are “caught out” and how even good leaders fall prey to bad decisions:

  “How are there any good leaders at all? Because it’s utterly frightening.” – Nick Kinley [14:16]

2. The Myth: “Power Corrupts”

• [15:29] Kinley forcefully disputes the cliché “power corrupts”, emphasizing:
  • Power does not automatically corrupt people; individuals are accountable for their behavior.
  • Blaming power alone excuses bad behavior and underestimates those who resist temptation.

  “Power does not corrupt people … Power may open the door by making certain behavior more likely, but it is we who walk through.” – Nick Kinley [16:13]

• Power exists at all levels, not just with the “rich and famous”—any person with influence, even within families or clubs, can experience its effects.

3. What Happens to People with Power?

The Six Effects of Power

[19:55–41:55]
Kinley details six ways power can change us, providing symptoms to look for in leaders:

1. Activation & Enablement

   • Power increases impulsiveness, assertiveness, optimism, decisiveness, and risk-taking.
   • Example: Players “wired up” in Monopoly games act more impulsively when made to feel powerful.

     “If you meet someone who’s impulsive, assertive, decisive, optimistic ... power’s only going to make them more likely to do that.” – Nick Kinley [21:00]

2. Cognitive Narrowing

   • Power sharpens focus on goals but makes thinking more black-and-white, stereotype-prone, and vulnerable to biases (notably confirmation bias).
   • Leaders become more likely to overlook dissent or alternative views.

3. Social Distance

   • Leaders become less able to empathize with subordinates and less accurately perceive their team’s perspectives.
   • Power suppresses information flow—people stop telling leaders the truth.
   • Difficult question for leaders: “What do your people find hardest to say to you?” [25:41]

   “The millisecond that you get promoted, it will reduce your ability to empathize with your people. And yet study after study shows that.” – Nick Kinley [25:41]

4. Ego Inflation

   • Power boosts confidence and risk of overconfidence or narcissism.
   • A little narcissism helps leadership, but too much becomes destructive.

   “If you meet someone who’s already got a bit of ego, it isn’t going to end happily.” – Nick Kinley [36:54]

5. Amplification of Internal States

   • Power makes people behave more authentically (for better and for worse), become more self-driven and sometimes, more selfish.
   • Whatever is inside (good or bad) is intensified.

6. Threat Sensitization

   • Leaders become highly sensitive to losing power, which can drive defensive or corrupt behavior.
   • Sometimes it’s not power itself that’s corrupting, but the fear of its loss.

   “Power doesn’t corrupt. It is the fear of losing power that corrupts.” – Nick Kinley [39:33]

4. Practical Advice for Leaders

Making Space for Dissent and Truth-Telling

• The hardest thing for subordinates is to disagree with leaders.
• Defeating ingratiation:
  • Public praise of the leader by the team can be poisonous; leaders should deflect and reorient to improvement (“Thank you, but what can we do better?”).
• “Percent certainty” language: Expressing uncertainty (“I’m 80% sure this is the best path, let’s discuss the 20%”) invites dissent and signals openness.

  “If leaders can show that they’re not always … avoid absolutist thinking, that makes it easier for people to speak up.” – Nick Kinley [32:41]

• Build a culture of “voice”: Routinely ask, “What do you think?” and respond constructively, not critically.
• Demonstrate vulnerability and uncertainty to boost trust and encourage honest feedback.

Making Power Less Damaging

• Organizations rarely train people for the psychological downsides of power.
• Leaders and companies need to bring discussions about power into the open and proactively design checks/balances and cultures that invite challenge and feedback.

• “Power is damaging, is negative because it happens in the dark.” – Nick Kinley [45:30]

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Memorable Quotes

• On Power’s Universality:
  “Power is me over my son in a way. … Anyone who holds any influence of any sort, right? … Even the slightest bit of power can have an effect on you.” – Nick Kinley [17:27]

• On Leadership Selection:
  “The assumption is that the person that they see is what you see is what you get. And you kind of forget that actually, that person is going to change. … Leadership changes people.” – Nick Kinley [09:21]

• On the Need for Openness:
  “Of all the techniques that we suggest, using uncertainty in a way to make it easier for people to speak up is the one we’ve received the most feedback on.” – Nick Kinley [35:29]

• On Self-Awareness:
  “If they’re not humble to start, they’re probably not going to get more humble as a result of their new power.” – Melina Palmer [42:12]

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 03:57 — Kinley’s professional journey
• 14:16 — “Utterly frightening” research on power
• 15:29 — Refuting “power corrupts”
• 19:55–25:41 — The first three effects of power
• 27:35–36:16 — Practical methods to build openness and counteract ingratiation
• 36:40 — Last three effects of power explained
• 41:55 — Summary on leadership attributes and amplification
• 43:51 — The taboo around openly discussing power
• 45:30 — Why power’s effects can be so harmful
• 41:55, 46:07 — Where to find Nick Kinley’s work

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Actionable Takeaways

• Leaders should proactively invite disagreement and feedback; use “percent certainty” language to create psychological safety.
• Organizations must discuss power openly and train leaders on its psychological impacts—not just its privileges.
• Selection for leadership should consider how power will amplify both strengths and weaknesses, not just current behaviors.
• Pay attention to ingratiation and shut down public praise of leaders to prevent echo chambers.

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Concluding Reflection

Melina closes by inviting listeners to try percent certainty phrasing in their leadership communications this week, to actively plan for moments where disagreement is encouraged, and to reflect on how power may be affecting their own thinking and relationships.

“Where specifically will you make it safer for someone to tell you you’re wrong this week? Name the meeting, name the moment, and plan the prompt.” – Melina Palmer [47:57]

Resources:

• Nick Kinley: LinkedIn, nickkinley.com, and major booksellers
• Melina Palmer: The Brainy Business (all links in show notes and at brainybusiness.com/551)

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there, Melina. Here. Really quickly, before we get into the episode, if you've ever wanted to level up your goals or your communication, I've got great news. Two of my most popular courses through Texas A and M's Human Behavior Lab are open now for enrollment. Setting brainy goals helps you to actually achieve those big plans, not just write them down and forget about them. And creating better presentations will totally transform the way you communicate at work and in meetings or on stage. They're part of the certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics. But you don't have to commit to the entire program to join either of these classes. There are no prerequisites, no fluff, just three weeks, all virtual directly with me and some other brainy folks from around the world. If you're interested to learn more and enroll, head to hbl like Human Behavior Lab, TAMU like Texas A and M University Edu, and click on certificate program to learn more and enroll again. That's hbl, tamu, Edu and click on certificate program. I can't wait to see you in class. And when you're ready, let's start the show. Welcome to episode 551 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Nick Kinley, author of the Power Trap. Ready? Let's get started.

[B]

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

[A]

Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. What if the moment you step into leadership, your brain starts shifting in ways that make some decisions easier and some much harder? And what if the real risk isn't that power corrupts, but that power changes us all? And the fear of losing power can nudge even good leaders into bad choices. This matters because power touches every level of work and life. In families, teams, clubs and boardrooms, we often hire for traits like confidence, speed and decisiveness. And then act surprised when those very traits get amplified in ways that create blind spots. Today, we're talking about how power changes people, what to watch for, and how to protect yourself and your organization from the downsides while keeping the benefits. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Nick Kinley. Nick is a psychologist and leadership expert whose career spans forensic psychotherapy in prisons, psychology, senior roles at BP and Barclays, and decades coaching and assessing CEOs politicians and executive teams around the world. He's written multiple books on leadership and behavior change, and his newest, the Power Trap, digs into what power does to our thinking and behavior and what to do about it. As you listen, keep this question in mind. Which of the six common effects of power do you see most in your world, and which one might be quietly shaping your own decisions? And really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 551 now let's jump right in. Nick Kinley, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, excited to be talking about power today. As we're going to be chatting quite a bit about that. Before we jump into the book, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

[B]

Sure. So I am a psychologist and psychotherapist with a fairly circuitous background. I started off in sales and marketing for about six, seven years, then did what everyone does at that stage in their career, which is to go to prison, where I spent kind of 10, 12 years, not at Her Majesty's pleasure, but I retrained as a forensic psychotherapist. So I kind of worked with prisoners, assessing them to see if they should be released, and kind of trying to work to change their behavior so they didn't reoffend on release. And then I moved back into business, working for bp, working for Barclays. And then for the last kind of 20 years I've worked as a consultant and I now kind of work with a variety of kind of worked in the Middle East, I've worked in Asia, I've worked in North America as well, where I've and For the last 15 years I've worked with RMD Business School, leading a research program where we've worked looking at leadership and culture change, trying to figure out and work to see how we can boost performance and see how leaders can drive change, which much to my wife's dismay, has led to us writing kind of nine books. And I haven't quite figured out how I can tell my wife that it's going to lead to a tenth book as well. I'll kind of figure out how I'm going to tell her that later. Maybe she'll just listen to this podcast and that will save me from telling her the last of which was about we had a Look at power. And so, yeah, really, for the last 20 years, we've been working with businesses around the world looking at how they can drive performance and drive culture. Culture change, yeah.

[A]

So what got you interested in Power as a topic that had it to feel worthy as the ninth book in the grouping? And I guess, what are some of the others about? Just to understand some of the scope of the work that you've been doing.

[B]

So the first book was really having a look at was called Talent Intelligence. And we was driven by the work that I was doing then, which was looking at how do leaders select the right leaders that they need to drive the performance in their businesses that they need to drive the strategies that they. That they've got. It was really about leadership selection. Right. So how do you choose the leaders that you actually need? We then had a look at. We wrote a book called Changing Employee Behavior, which really kind of was. Went into your space because we had a look at behavioral economics. We wrote a book that was kind of drew together, learning from behavioral economics, but also from psychotherapy and psychology too, and drew from these behavioral change fields and tried to apply learning from them to practical techniques that leaders and managers could use to actually improve the performance of their teams. And we kind of pulled them together to. It was a how to book with about 100 techniques leaders could use. It was a smorgasbord of techniques that they could use to try and improve the performance of their teams. And then we kind of had a look at actually how we put together a book called Leadership OS or Leadership Operating systems that leaders could create the right environments for their teams. So the operating systems that leaders did. So we were looking at leadership cultures, leadership environments that leaders could draw together. We then wrote a book called the Leadership Code. It was a really bad title. It was all in the subtitle, really, which was how your childhood made you the leader you are and what you could do about it, which was really about exactly what it said. Right. How we got to be the people that we are. That really took me back to my psychotherapy background. But throughout all of this, the common theme was for me, right. The way from the assessment time through to the behavior change piece was really how the environments that we grew up in and the environments we make for other people. I've always had a very systemic kind of approach. And what I mean by that was the touch points between the environments that we're in, how they affect us, and how we affect the environments that we are part of as well. So it's always the touch points between us and the context that we're in. So we. What they trigger in us and what we trigger in the environments that we're in. And so it's always those touch points that I've been interested in. And that's what kind of led me to this whole power piece. Because more and more, one of the things that I was seeing, because an awful lot of the work that I do at the moment is in selections. So a lot of the work that I do at the moment is working with private equity businesses post acquisition. And I get involved in helping them select leaders for the businesses that they've acquired. And I Help them select CEOs and C Suite leaders. And often when they are trying to select those leaders, they come across a leader and they think, oh, that's going to be a really great person. They're going to fit the team. And the assumption is that the person that they see is what you see is what you get, right? This wysiwyg, what you see is what you get. And you kind of view the person that you see as this static kind of thing. And you kind of forget that actually that person is going to change. You kind of forget that the person is going to change during the period that they're going to be a leader. And you kind of forget that leadership changes people, that being a leader actually changes people during the period that they're in it. That actually being a leader, you make a person a leader and it actually does. Does something to them. And so what I was curious about is actually what does it do to them, right? And so that was one of the things that was driving my kind of curiosity and then piled onto that was just everything that we see around us, right? And you only have to see the newspapers. And it's just, I mean, just even the last week, right? Just pick a. I mean, I don't know when this is going to go to air, but pick a week, any week, right? And there's just story after story after story of just leaders being in trouble, right? And decent people, right? I mean, I mean, leaders don't seek out trouble, right? Leaders don't, you know, people don't seek out trouble. People don't. I'm an optimist, right? I tend to believe that people are. And maybe I'm naive, right? But I like to believe that there are more good people out there than bad, right? And people don't come into roles seeking trouble, right? And even if they're bad, they don't seek out trouble, right? They don't seek out bad situations. And yet there's just story after story after story of leaders being caught out. So actually, even if they're bad, they're not stupid, Right. So how come they keep getting caught out? You'd think that they'd actually not be that stupid to get caught out so many times, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how come they keep getting caught out? And so that begs questions, what is happening? And so it was. It was partially just these newspaper stories again and again and again, right. Of how come they're getting caught out? Partially just me kind of thinking, okay, so what is happening to leaders in terms of how are they changing when they become leaders? Partially, it was because also I do a bit of work with politicians as well. And I think our view of politicians is just that they're not very good. Right. The popular view of politicians is that they're not very good. And yet I know from some of the people that I've worked with is that some of the people who go into political roles have actually been very successful in business and they go into political roles and political roles seem to spit them out. At least in the UK they go into business, they're very successful in business, and then they go into politics and politics just seems to spit them out. Right. They do a term in politics and they just seem to get spat out of these political roles. They just seem to chew them up and it spits them out again. And so something is happening to people in leadership roles. And the question is, so what is leadership doing to people? And that's what I was interested in. And so I went out to the research, to the academic research to say, what is leadership? What is power doing to people? And that's what I was interested in. And that's what the book was about. And I tried to translate what is the academic research saying about what does power do to people? And I have to say it was really, really frightening about what does power do to people? Really frightening. Because when you have a look at it, you have to wonder, how are there any good leaders at all? At all? How are there any good leaders? Because it's utterly frightening.

[A]

Yeah. So as you did dig into that research, right. And what you started to find, I really appreciated at the beginning of the book, you know, you start with, at start, it's not like the very, very first thing, but it's pretty early on in there talking about that quote we've heard about power, right. Of that, you know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Right. Is it true? Is it the power? Is it the people? Is it a mix? Kind of like what's happening? You give so many amazing examples in the book. I know we can't go through all of them here, but if you were going to give some of the highlights of what happens to people and how power really changes people, what would you share a couple of those key points?

[B]

Yeah, so. So, I mean, thanks very much for picking up on that, because that's. That's one of the very first fights I pick, right. Is that I say, no, power doesn't corrupt. And I think that's really important that we say that because power does an awful lot of things to people. But I think it's really important that we say that power does not corrupt people. It certainly does some things to some people that makes bad behavior more likely or easier, but it does not corrupt people because. And I think it's really important that we say that, because every time that we say that, we are almost excusing people for their bad behavior. And there's a whole bunch of leaders who may be tempted but do not engage in bad behavior. Right. And it is. Individuals are accountable for their own behavior. And it is really important that we do not excuse them by blaming power. And every time that we say power corrupts, we're almost excusing people by saying, oh, well, it's not their fault. It's power. It's power's fault. And it's really important that we do not do that. It is not power's fault. It is the individual's fault. And power may open the door by making certain behavior more likely, but it is we who walk through is we who choose to engage in that behavior. And there are certain people who refuse temptation. Right. And it is important that we acknowledge them and praise them by holding those who do succumb to power's temptation, by making very clear that power does not corrupt. So, yeah, power does not corrupt. And we must make that very clear. Yeah, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. And I make that very clear. And I think the other thing that I say early on in the book is that we tend to, when we talk about power, we tend to think of Elon Musk or we tend to think of power as being the rich and famous, and it's not. Right. Power is anyone who holds any influence. Or we tend to think of the Kardashians or. I don't know, it isn't. Power is. I hate to say it, but power is me over my son. In a way. It's power is anyone who holds any influence of any sort? Right. We hold power within our families, if we hold a senior position within that family. If you are a first line manager, you have power. If you are a leader in a club, in a local club, you have power. It is anyone who holds any influence or any authority, you have power. It is certainly true that the more power you have, and the longer you have it, the more likely it is that power will have an effect on you. But if you have even the slightest bit of power, it can have an effect on you. So it isn't just the rich and famous who are affected by it.

[A]

Yeah. So what are a couple of the things, you know, you talked about when you go to, when you're looking to hire a leader and it's hard to know what they're going to change into and how the role might impact them. Especially without, if you don't know the research with which most people don't. Which is why you wrote the book. Right. But what are some things you could be on the lookout for? What are the, you know, signs that someone will be good or not? Yeah. And how do we think about who they're going to be, you know, five years into a role?

[B]

Okay, so there are six things that power can do to us. They're not going to do all six to everyone, but there are six ways in which power can change us. And so if, if there are signs that they are already like any of those six things, there's a pretty good chance power is going to make them worse. Right. So, so let's go through those six quickly. Right. So first of all, power enables us, right? It makes us. So power makes us more impulsive, it makes us, it focuses on goals, it makes us more optimistic, it makes us more assertive, it makes us more decisive, it makes us quicker to take action. Right. It activates us, it enables us, it makes us more. Which is why more powerful CEOs are more likely to pursue more novel, more risky strategies. Right. It activates us, it enables us, it makes us more impulsive, active. There's actually some really in the book, I go into it, but there's some really interesting neurological evidence in it. Right. There's a whole theory about a network in the brain called the behavioral activation system, which is this set of pathways within the brain. And there's some really interesting evidence that power, that people who just feel powerful. So if you, you know, some interesting evidence with playing Monopoly, right. And you give them a set of houses or hotels within Monopoly and you wire up their brains and Then actually it literally lights up their behavioral activation system and then they're more likely to be more optimistic about their chances in their games and they're more likely to take risks within the game. So it enables us, it activates us, it makes us more impulsive, it makes us more likely to take risks. All of those positive, active, enabling things. So that's the first thing. So if you meet someone who's impulsive, assertive, decisive, optimistic, very goal focused, all of those positive kind of active things, well, power is only going to make them more likely to do that. The second thing is that power changes how we think. So it makes us more likely sharper, focused on what we think is very, kind of makes us more blinkered, right? More likely to focus on what we think's goal focused, relevant information. It makes us more likely to use general rules of thumb, right? More likely to use stereotypes. Makes us more, and because of that makes us more likely to use assumptions, right? Makes us more vulnerable to biases. And what that is is that we are, because we're focused on our goals, we are. There's some really interesting research done in terms of how we use, and it's all about how we use focus on higher level abstract thinking, that we use very general kind of ideas and rules of thumb. And because of that, we use stereotypes. Because we use stereotypes, we use assumptions, we're more vulnerable to biases. We're more likely to use data that aligns to what we already think. We're more vulnerable to confirmation bias. And it's all of the biases just roll out from that. It's quite scary when you start rolling out the biases one after the other, but it simplifies and sharpens our thinking. So if you meet people who have this kind of very general generalized assumptions kind of rule of, you know, they, they, they've got this kind of style of thinking which is very rules of thumb generalized thinking, right? If they're prone to very kind of black and white kind of, oh, it's all very like this, you know, very, very generalized thinking, right? They think in very black and white general terms, that ain't going to get any better. The third thing is, and this affects everyone, power makes us more distant. It just makes us more distant. The more powerful you get, the higher up you get, the more distance you get. And this is one of the hardest things for leaders to accept because it just sounds nasty. You are less than able to empathize with the people you lead. And no one likes to hear that, right? But study after study after study shows it that leaders are less accurate in being able to gauge and to accurately perceive what their people are thinking and to accurately gauge the perspectives of the people that they lead. So it reduces information flow. It reduces your ability to accurately gauge what your people are thinking. Right. So power kills information flow. It kills kind of your ability to gauge your people's perspectives. It reduces our understanding and our empathy. So it undermines your ability to make informed decisions. And for a leader, I mean, that is just. I mean, it's killer, right?

[A]

Yeah. Not the dream. Right.

[B]

And that is built in. That is absolutely built into your role. And no one tells you that. No one tells you that. I am yet to come across a leadership development program in which it trains you for that, which it tells you that you're. Or a leadership potential program in which it tells you that the millisecond that you get promoted, it will reduce your ability to empathize with your people. And yet study after study after study shows that that is what happens. Right. It reduces our ability to understand others perspectives. And it also means that people are less likely to be open with us. The millisecond you become a leader, people will stop telling you the truth. Does my bum look big in this? Right. If you ever meet anyone who is completely 100% open, then they are probably single, unemployed and friendless. You are not completely open with your boss. The chances are that your people aren't with you. And yet almost every boss I meet, when I say, are your people open with you? When I first meet them, they typically go, yeah, of course they are. Of course they are. Yeah. Because we all like to think that people are. Because we all like to think that we're a nice boss. And one of the questions that leaders typically find hardest to answer is when I say, what do your people find hardest to say to you? And it's one of the hardest questions for leaders to answer. And yet it's also one of the most important. Yeah.

[A]

Before we get to the next three on the list of items here, are there some common themes that you find in the responses people give once they can actually understand what it is that people find hardest to say to them? Is there theming there or it kind of is a mix, you know, for people.

[B]

So the most difficult, I mean. Yeah. So the most difficult thing for people to do is to disagree. It's always to disagree. To say, I think you're wrong because it's always to disagree.

[A]

Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense. Right. It can feel scary to do that. Where the person, the other, whether the person is above or below or whatever. Right. That. That sort of process can be hard. We'll take a quick sidestep before we come back to the other three, because I think this is a great aspect in the book. You give some really helpful tips with really good language of ways that people can present information in the way that they would ask to help people be more open with them. You know, one of them being, you know, I'm 80% sure about this and would like to hear. I also made a note about, you know, I really appreciate your support, but like, I also want to hear the truth, you know. So go ahead and tell me what are some other tips or if you want to elaborate on one of those. Of ways that someone who does want to make it so that people will actually give them that good feedback and help kind of close that gap. What are some of those tips for people?

[B]

Yeah, so there are. There's a couple of things, right? So one of the most poisonous things you can for any leader is ingratiation, right? It is utter poison. It's awful. And public ingratiation in particular is terrible. And if you ever experience anyone praising you publicly, you should stop it stone dead. Just because if one person praises you publicly, one of your team praises you publicly and you don't stop it stone dead, then everyone else thinks they need to do it as well, right? Ingratiation is poison for you publicly because people will feel that they need to do it.

[A]

Well, that's. As the leader, having one of your team praise you as the leader and you know how smart you are, what a good idea you had or something. And you don't put the, like kind of move along and be able to shift that approach, people will feel like that's all they can do. But as a leader, you should still praise your team.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You should praise your team, but you should never accept it. Back from. So the. So the. So as a leader, the general rule is praise in public, criticize in private from your team. If someone starts praising you publicly, you say, I really appreciate it. That's really kind. What do you really think? Or give me something we can improve upon, right? Or how could we do this better? So you say, thank you, but what can we do better? So that's how you. So you thank them and. And then you ask them for an improvement, or you say, what could we do better? Right? So that's one thing. So push back on ingratiation. The second thing is you've got to try and do what I would call build voice. Right? So you need to, so the first thing is really simple. Ask people questions, right? Again and again and again and again, right? So there was a CEO I knew who almost used to terrorize people by asking them, what do you think? Right. If you went into his room, you knew he would always say, what do you think? And you knew that the absolute worst thing you could do would be to not have an opinion, right? It would be the worst thing you could do would be to not have an opinion. Now the thing following that up is you need to be careful how you respond because sometimes people are going to say stupid things. They're going to say stupid things. They're going to say stuff which is going to irritate you and you need to not let it show. So you've always need to go to say thanks for that. And you need to not say, well, that was stupid. So you need to say, okay, thanks, thanks, thanks for that. You don't have to take it on, right. So there are stories of, of CEOs who've then kind of like hammered people down when they respond with something stupid, right? So you need to ask people their ideas. The other thing is that is to not sound overly certain, right. So I think there's some really interesting research, recent research done showing that actually CEOs when they're doing their quarterly reports, or although I now hear there's actually in the US you're going to move more over to the European system, which is I actually think really good idea, where you're going to move to half yearly reporting rather than quarterly, where that actually just with shareholder reports, where your CEOs who sound less certain can actually increase confidence in their reports. And what I mean by that is that where they report their degree of uncertainty. So rather than saying I'm 100% sure that actually we'll say, well, we are 80% sure that we are 70% sure that can actually increase trust in what they are saying rather than pretending to be sure when it's obvious that there's a degree of uncertainty. So leaders can actually increase confidence in their people and increase confidence in their people to speak up when they themselves can display a degree of uncertainty. If you see what I mean by saying I'm 70% sure that. Right? I'm 80% sure that. And I think that's what you're referring to when we say in the book, you know, there's a, that if leaders can show that they're not always can avoid absolutist thinking Right. Absolutist, black and white. You know, the world is this way. We shall do. You know, it is this. It is that, you know, well, there's a 70% chance of this. There's a 90% this. I'm 90% sure that, you know, if they can say, I'm 90% sure that. I'm 80% sure that that makes it easier for people to speak up and say themselves. Right. I'm 80% sure that. I'm 90% sure that. Right. If you can encourage that way of speaking, it becomes easier for people to speak up and voice their own opinion.

[A]

Yeah, I like on that, too, that you're able to say something like, you know, 80% sure this is going to happen and we should spend some time talking about the 20%. Right. Like what might change, what would be different. Right. It's a good segue into, you know, know, getting out of the optimism bias and the confirmation bias and all the, you know, illusory truth and all the things that come from, you know, when you're a leader there to help people want to speak up and share and know that it's helpful and that you can put some focus on that other area. You know, you talk about what you're going to make salient in the book. Right. So if we're going to say, it's easy to say, this is what's going to happen and that's great. But let's plan for this other stuff because we know our competition isn't going to. So let's really focus on. On that. Right. And dedicate some time to it.

[B]

Yeah, so. And since we published the book, one of the, I have to say, of all the tech techniques that we've. That we suggest in the book, that's probably the technique that we've received the most feedback about of people saying that. Actually, that seems to be having a big impact of this kind of idea of using uncertainty in a way to actually make it easier for people to speak up.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I think, as you said, not only does it make it easier for people to actually speak up, but it also actually opens up this whole new avenue of conversation, which is, okay, well, let's talk about the uncertainty as well then, and actually drill down into that and actually mitigate for that as well.

[A]

Perfect. Very useful in leadership and for companies. And so making sure. Thank you for taking that sidestep with me. I think that's really helpful for people to hear some of the examples of how that can come together. You've shared the first Three of six things that power does to people. If we summarize in a quick five minutes, what are those last three that's going to leave people excited to go read the book to learn more about them.

[B]

Okay, so the fourth one is simple. Power boosts our ego, full stop. Makes us. Makes us more confident, more likely to be overconfident. Simple as it increases. So I'll do a little sidestep now. It makes us more like. So there's some really interesting research to say that power makes us more narcissistic. I say more narcissistic. Most people would think that narcissism is bad, right? Narcissism equals bad. Actually, there's some really interesting research just to show that a little narcissism is good for performance. And if you think about it, that's because you want. So narcissism is being confident enough to say, no, this is what we're going to do. And actually, sometimes you need that in a leader, right? So a little narcissism can actually be good. But the problem is that too much narcissism is. Is always bad. So power can actually make us too narcissistic. So power boosts our ego. So if you meet someone who's already got a bit of ego, it isn't going to end happily, right? So if they walk into that and you think, well, they've got a bit of ego, they're a bit full of themselves, that isn't going to end happily, right? It almost certainly isn't going to end happily. The fifth thing is that power amplifies our internal states. It makes us more led by our emotions, instincts, and biases. There is a lot of research to show that. It makes us more disinhibited. It makes us more authentic, better, and for worse, it makes us more selfish. And what I mean by that is more led by our personal goals. And sometimes those personal goals are fully aligned with the company. So sometimes our personal goals are to do what is expected, you know, to do well. You know, it's to be ambitious, which is great for the company. And sometimes it's really not. It is to line our pockets. That's why we say power amplifies what's inside, right? It reveals what's inside, for better and for worse. And the very final thing power does is that power sensitizes us to threats, and it gives us a whole new threat, which is the fear of losing power. And that is the. There was a really, really good academic paper written which was. And it was called Power doesn't corrupt. It is the fear of losing power that corrupts. Which I thought was really a quite snazzy title. And it is the fear of losing power can do amazing things to people. And it does. The final three things are that power boosts our ego and makes us, renders us very prone to becoming overconfident, which can do terrible things to our decision making. It amplifies what is within, making us disinhibited, making us focusing, focusing us on our personal goals. Which is why by the way, leaders can become very focused on very pro societal goals sometimes, right? Steering their company on very proud pro societal goals in a very positive way. Or sometimes steering some whole governmental departments on goals that they personally believe in for better and for worse. And then finally, power can sensitize us to threats to power and they can then become very defensive. So look, power can do all of those things. They won't do all of those things to everyone, but they will do at least some of those things to all of us to varying degrees. All of us will be affected in some of those ways at some point and we will all be changed. We are all changed by the power that we hold. And the question is only how much in what way? And none of us like to think that it will be for worse. But we are all affected. And it can sometimes be quite difficult to think of, right? We don't like to think of it. Think of a leader, a leader that you really like and admire. And it's very difficult to think of them being negatively affected in this way. But they will have been. They will have been because we are all changed by the power that we hold. Sooner or later it gets the better of us and it's the terrible thing of it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I really appreciate in the book and people, when they get their copy of the Power Trap, they can learn a little bit about how to hire better for this. Understanding how to train teams better, how to be thoughtful about themselves, you know, in a better way of how this might be impacting them, what to be on the lookout for. So many great insights and aspects. And I'm sure everyone listening is hearing too that you know, the things that you were listing in in a small form like in the initial piece, that's actually what people tend to hire leaders for, right? Having being goal oriented, being able to be ambitious, be able to make quick decisions that are thoughtful, go with the instinct and understand how this is mo forward. Like that's a lot of stuff that, you know, we tend to think is what leaders Are. But if someone is too much of any of those things, especially at the beginning, then we should be cautious of how that can amplify down the road and don't expect that they shall be. If they're not humble to start, they're probably not going to get more humble as a result of their new power, right?

[B]

No, no. Leadership power doesn't tend to make people more humble.

[A]

Yeah, it does a lot of things, but that's not.

[B]

It doesn't tend to make people more humble, less confident.

[A]

Yeah. Kind and gracious and.

[B]

And it doesn't tend to make people more inhibited.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think the thing is, though, and what I would want to leave people with, is that there are things that organizations can do and there are things that people can do to mitigate the negative effects of power. And I begin the book by saying that we have an entirely messed up relationship with power because we all want it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Power isn't something that any. I think we all want power. Right. It's something we all desire quietly or loudly. Right. We all quite like it. We all like the sound of it, but we don't talk about it. It's not something I actually say, you know, that these days I think it's more socially acceptable to talk about sex than it is about power. I don't think anyone can sit down at the dinner table and say, I really like power. Right. I really enjoy having power over people. You can't do that. Right. But. And you certainly. I've never come across a work, an organization that runs a program about having power. And yet power does affect people. It does change people. And you could. There are things you can do to mitigate its effects on people. And if only we talked about it more, if only we publicly talked about it and acknowledged it and talked more about those effects, there would be things that we could do about it. And I think partly the reason that it is so negative and it can be so damaging is that we don't talk about it. And so all of those things that it does to us are happening beneath the table in the dark. And if only we brought it in the light a little bit more above the table, you know, and we did it and we brought it into the light and we, you know, we made it a little bit more public, it wouldn't be so damaging. Power is damaging, is negative because it happens in the dark.

[A]

Well, the good news is we now have the power trap to help people to learn more about that, to start to have those conversations with their teams and to look inward at themselves. We will of course have links in the the show notes, but for everyone who's now so excited to get their copy of the book, what's the best way for them to grab that to follow you? Learn more where do they go so.

[B]

They can find me either on LinkedIn or they can find my website nickkinley.com or they can find the bookseller of their choice. All good, reputable booksellers.

[A]

Perfect. Well, like I said, we'll have those links in the show notes and I just want to thank you again, Nick, for coming on the show to talk about power with me today and starting to shed some light on the subject.

[B]

Melina, thank you very much indeed.

[A]

Thank you again to Nick Kinley for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I love seeing all the ways that power changes people and having clear, definitive research that we can't blame power for corruption. People need to remain accountable. That paired with the uncomfortable truth that leadership roles can still change all of us. They narrow our focus, boost our ego, reduce empathy, and amplify what's already inside. No matter what you do in work and leadership, having this in your new span of awareness is really helpful so that you can start to be on the lookout for where maybe power isn't really impacting you in the best way or something you might want to change. One tip that I would encourage anyone to try this week is that percent certainty language. I really liked that. It resonated with me and I feel like it something easy anybody can do. So saying something like I'm 80% confident in this path. Let's spend a few minutes on the 20%. I like it because it both invites dissent and reduces the ingratiation spiral that shuts down real feedback. That tiny phrasing shift opens up space for your team to think with you and not just nod along. And with that in mind, here is one final question to consider as we close out the show. If disagreement is the hardest thing for people to say to leaders, where specifically will you make it safer for someone to tell you you're wrong this week? Name the meeting, name the moment, and plan the prompt you're going to use and whatever resonated with you most from this episode, I'd love to hear about it. Please do come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere. And as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn, there are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, including the Power Trap, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 551 and thank you again to Nick Kinley for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brain episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

[B]

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops, and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit the brainybusiness.com.