The Brainy Business Podcast, Episode 553

Removing Barriers to Drive Engagement with Matt Sucha

Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Melina Palmer
Guest: Matt Sucha, CEO of Mindworx & author of The Hidden Yes

Episode Overview

In this episode, Melina Palmer sits down with behavioral economics expert Matt Sucha to explore the hidden barriers that keep customers from saying “yes.” Drawing from his decade of work with major firms and insights from his new book The Hidden Yes, Matt introduces the SURF methodology—a four-step, practical framework designed to help businesses systematically remove friction points, making engagement and conversion smoother and more brain-friendly. The conversation centers on tangible examples, illustrating how minor tweaks, especially around addressing psychological hurdles before defaulting to motivation or incentives, can trigger outsized positive results in sales and engagement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Removing Barriers Matters

• Many businesses instinctively respond to low engagement by piling on “more”—incentives, information, persuasion—rather than investigating what’s getting in the way of a “yes.”
• The most common obstacles are not lack of motivation but psychological barriers or subtle frictions that prevent action.
• Matt’s experience: “More often than not, when a customer doesn’t do what you want them to do, the problem is not a lack of motivation” (07:45, Matt Sucha).

Genesis of The Hidden Yes (Book Inspiration)

• Matt’s journey began with Predictably Irrational, igniting a passion for consumer psychology.
• A long gestation for his own book: “Books have been kind of reserved for those who really have something to say... I didn’t want to add just another mediocre book” (05:04, Matt Sucha).
• Feedback from licensees and fellow trainers helped crystallize the practical need for an actionable framework.

The SURF Methodology – A Four-Step Framework (07:45)

• S – Set Behavioral Goals: Get crystal clear on what you want the customer to feel, think, and do—mapped out in each stage of the user journey.
  • “There are only three things that you can change with communication. And that’s how the person feels, what they think and what they do” (07:45, Matt Sucha).
  • Avoid jumping to solutions before clarifying intended outcomes.
• U – Uncover Barriers: Ask “why not?”—why might someone not take the desired action? Identify, often via research, sources of friction, uncertainty, or reactance.
• R – Remove Barriers: Tweak communication, copy, or processes to directly address and remove those points of resistance.
• F – Focus on Motivation (last): Only after barriers are removed, focus on boosting motivation—preferably by changing context, not just via discounts or added incentives.
  • “We try to avoid the usual suspects, discounts and benefits, because that costs a lot of money and might not be so effective” (11:20, Matt Sucha).

Case Studies & Practical Application

1. Job Description Overhaul (14:39)

• Problem: Telecom company’s call center job ad attracted few applicants; default “widening the net” and trying to motivate more wasn’t working.
• Solution: Focused on removing uncertainties (education level, payment reliability), used employee testimonials to counter reactance. Concrete results:

  “When it was A/B tested, the results were just amazing. It attracted three times as many people. And even more surprising, the people were more qualified than those before” (19:15, Matt Sucha).

  • Key quote: “Forget about Start With Why. Start with Why Not? That’s the very first question you should ask yourself. Why not? Why isn’t my customer... doing what I want them to do?” (21:04, Matt Sucha)

2. Digital Insurance Funnel—New vs. Used Car Question (23:20)

• The simple question “Is your car new or used?” created confusion and halted progress:

  “If you bought your car two months ago, is it new or is it old?... If you simply cannot answer, you will not move forward. You’ll just postpone the decision or abandon the process altogether” (23:55, Matt Sucha).

• Tweaking with specificity—“Have you had your car for more or less than six months?”—removes ambiguity and increases form completion.

3. Loan Retention Call Redesign (27:55)

• Standard approach: Banks call clients trying to “save” them after they ask to close a loan—resulting in customer resistance and pushback.
• SURF applied:
  • Removed reactance by aligning with the customer’s goal (“I’m here to help you do just that.”)
  • Broke call into stages with clarity on desired outcomes for each.
  • Used “permission questions” and offered alternative choices instead of upselling outright (“Can I tell you about those?”).
  • Results: Double or triple conversion rates; higher retention; dramatically improved customer experience.
  • Agents reported, for the first time, customers thanking them for the call—a sign the process benefited both sides (34:56).

Insightful Quotes & Perspectives

• “So many times people get excited by behavioral economics… but very quickly they hit a wall because...they don’t know how to apply it... That’s where the biggest hurdle lies in my experience.” (06:28, Matt Sucha)
• “You all know the book, Start with Why. Forget about it. Start with Why Not?” (21:04, Matt Sucha)
• “It wasn’t just the quantitative result that was interesting, but also the qualitative feedback we got from the agents...We made it much more pleasant for both the agents and the customer” (34:56, Matt Sucha)
• Melina Palmer: “You have to be able to get out of your own expectations as you’re not the person that you’re trying to sell to” (22:45)

Changing Context Instead of Adding Benefits: The Pizza Defaults Experiment (38:04)

• Demonstrates the effect of reframing choices:
  • Group 1 builds a pizza from scratch by adding toppings.
  • Group 2 starts with a fully-loaded pizza and removes toppings.
  • “The second group ends up with roughly two to three times as many ingredients...Sometimes these tiny little things...don’t require you to change your strategy, just the context” (39:25, Matt Sucha).
• Applied to sales: Instead of asking “which add-ons do you want?” ask “which don’t you want from this package?”—resulting in up to 33% higher accessory sales.

Actionable Takeaways

• Don’t instinctively add more incentives—identify and remove sources of friction first.
• Use the SURF method for every step of the customer journey:
  • Set behavioral goals
  • Uncover barriers
  • Remove those barriers
  • Then focus on motivation/context
• Small changes in language, order of information, or the specificity of questions can unlock outsized improvements.
• Research and user feedback are critical to uncover the real, often invisible, barriers to action.
• Changing the context—rather than the content—of choices (defaults, order, framing) can have a powerful impact on outcomes.

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “More often than not, when a customer doesn’t do what you want...the problem is not a lack of motivation. It’s some psychological barriers.” (07:45, Matt Sucha)
• “Forget about Start With Why. Start with Why Not?” (21:04, Matt Sucha)
• “The main thing was...psychological reactance. If you focus first on removing the barriers, it’s not only more effective... but much more pleasant from the customer experience point of view.” (34:56, Matt Sucha)
• (On defaults) “Which of those services you’re not really interested in? This works like magic... the average value of accessories package sold increased by 32-33% just by switching the conversation.” (39:25, Matt Sucha)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:41 — Matt Sucha introduces his background and company
• 07:45 — Introduction and breakdown of the SURF methodology
• 14:39 — Job description overhaul case study
• 23:20 — Digital insurance funnel friction point example
• 27:55 — Loan retention call full walkthrough using SURF
• 38:04 — Pizza defaults experiment: changing context, not content

Closing Thoughts & Further Learning

Melina wraps up by emphasizing the value of applying behavioral science in simple, structured ways using frameworks like SURF. Practitioner-friendly, highly actionable, and rich with real-world case studies, Matt’s approach makes behavioral economics accessible to anyone seeking to increase engagement, sales, or customer satisfaction.

For links to The Hidden Yes, more case studies, and related episodes, visit the show notes at thebrainybusiness.com/553.