← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
555. Press Play: The Power of Gaming in Business
00:49:21
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to episode 555 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Bastian Bergman, author of Press Play why Every Company Needs a Gaming Strategy. Ready? Let's get started.
- [00:23]
B
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [00:39]
A
Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. What would change if your brand or your team approached engagement the way a game designer does? Game designers don't just hope people will show up and stick around. They study motivation, design for curiosity, and create experiences that people actually want to return to. They understand what makes us feel immersed, challenged, and rewarded and achieve a level of connection most organizations can only dream about. And that's what today's conversation is all about, how understanding the psychology of play can help you create deeper, more meaningful engagement no matter what your industry or business type. Trust me. We're going to get into some really cool stuff today with my guest. His name is Bastian Bergman and he's the co founder and COO of Solsten, a company that helps brands like Activision Blizzard, Peloton, Zynga and Sony design experiences that resonate at a psychological level. His new book, Press Play explores how companies across every sector, from luxury, fashion to healthcare, are using the power of gaming to build loyalty and connection. As you listen, I recommend you keep this in mind. How might your experience change if you focused less on compliance and instead designed for curiosity really quickly? Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 555.
- [02:17]
Now let's jump right in. Bastian Bergman, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.
- [02:22]
B
Thanks for having me, Melina. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [02:25]
A
Yeah, we are of course going to have so, so much fun today. Nature of the beast, as they would say. But before we get into all that, and I'm sure your background is super fun too, but for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- [02:42]
B
Yeah, sure. Happy to. Yeah. My name is Bastian. I'm a co founder of a company Called Solsten. I'm CEO there. Been doing this for almost eight years now. We basically use or we've built our own psychological AI to help companies understand what I like to say, the human being behind the consumer a little more, a little more deeply and intimately. So really getting to what drives consumers, what drives us as people, what motivates us. Yeah. And in any spare time that I, that I sometimes have, I do write a lot. And I'm the author of a book called Press Play why Every Company Needs a Gaming Strategy that just came out and hit your local bookstore. Yay.
- [03:22]
A
And I am so excited to talk about the game aspect. As I was telling you, kind of leading into our conversation here, we don't talk about. We talk about having fun, incorporating fun into things and how important that is for humans and human nature. But even gamification haven't had too many conversations about. Because it's one of those things that became a buzzword and then people did it really badly. And so now it's like the that doesn't work deal and like it feels like something that is, you know, underrated or whatever, I don't know. But overrated. Right. So that people think it's not a thing. It's not going to work for me. But gamification is not the same as games. While there's some overlap and whatnot, can you share a little bit about kind of how you got into the gaming space and why it's so important for people?
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, you, you nailed it, by the way. You know, there's a. There's this book from Yukai Chow called Gamification, which was like the landmark book 15 years ago and it's such an abused term and people thought if you throw confetti on a screen when a user checks out and makes a purchase, you're done and you just did a great deed. And you can check the gamification box and yeah, it's obviously more than that. But yeah, how I got into gaming is actually through my co founder, Joe of the company, because he was working at one of the top mobile gaming publishers back in the day called Big Fish Games, and he went specifically into gaming because of the overlap with psychology and the ability through games to actually just learn a lot about people because they're so rich in engagement, they're so rich in data. Games are next to none. If you look at all of the different consumer touch points that exist, and that includes social media that are able to create a level of engagement and a level of immersion that are just Completely unparalleled. I always say to people when someone says, well, I feel pretty immersed on my couch in the evening when I'm doom scrolling on Instagram for three hours, I'm like, that's not the same level of doing this. Just flicking up your phone screen is not the same level of immersion. Than Henry Cavill, for example, the Superman actor, he almost missed his call from the director that he got cast as Superman because he was playing World of Warcraft with his friends. So it's like that level of immersion and there's something about games that connect with us on a very fundamental human level and that connect to our brains and how we're wired as people. And it has to do with the fundamental principle of play, because to play is human. If you've ever, I've got two young girls, if you've ever watched a toddler learn about the world and experience the world, they do that through unstructured play. And even us as adults, or even as you get older and you look at my parents or grandparents, if they're still around, the best way for adults to learn new things and rewire our brains is through play. And effectively what video games are, it's a digital manifestation of play and that's what makes them so engaging and that's what makes them so powerful because they're by nature human.
- [06:33]
A
Absolutely. And I too, I have a newly four year old and so we get to play lots of games and things like that and it's just like laughing all the time and so fun as your, you know, rhymes and whatever. It grows up different for the most part. But like these days, so much of what, you know, you get to. I love watching and seeing how he learns. How my 9 year old, my 12 year old, like seeing the things that they're learning in school and also thinking about just human behavior in general. I think it's so fascinating to see what's happened through schools and what games they like to play and all these different aspects and knowing that there are adults that play so many of these games too. And so for any of the people who are listening, whether it's when they think about from their business angle or just from them, and they say, well, I'm not a gamer, there aren't that many gamers. So like, why would we want to be targeting this small demographic? What do you have to say?
- [07:29]
B
Yeah, I think that's one of the very common misconceptions around the stereotype of what makes a gamer. You know, it's this idea of whatever the 20 year old young dude in the basement with the monster energy drink, you know, the can in their hand and the neon lights in the, in the background and they're playing a shooter game on their PC or something like that. Those people exist, absolutely. But they're actually an absolute minority. And it's been, it's been the stereotype that stuck with us. Whenever we think about people that game or people that play games or people that would consider themselves gamers, which is also not the whole population, not everyone that plays sports considers themselves to be an athlete for good reasons, sometimes for wrong reasons. And it's the same with gamers. So a lot of it also just has to do with a complete lack of self awareness. If I asked my wife who's very self aware, it's like, are you a gamer? No, she would completely deny that. And then you look at her phone and you go, well there's Wordle, there's 2048, there's strands, there's, I'm doing like marketing for the New York Times right now. But there's all those different games and apps or that you would consider apps that are games. And I think that's the key thing. So the first starting point, whether it's people looking into this space, people thinking about the opportunity, if you're a company, if you're a brand, you have to shift your mindset and you have to shift the perception away from the stereotype. And you have to realize that at this point close to three and a half billion people play video games almost daily. Like to put that into, into context, that's more than the populations of China and India combined. That's also bigger than any religion we've ever had on earth, you know, as humanity. So it's a, it's a, it's, it's a completely different magnitude than people make it out to be.
- [09:23]
A
Right. I'm glad that you brought up the New York Times and of course this was on the list of ones to want to talk about anyway. But I talk with my clients a lot where so a lot of my clients, let's say if it's in like a fast moving consumer goods type category, people talk a lot about habits, right. And how do we get into someone's habit and we want them into our app or something, let's say, or to use our product regularly. And I end up talking about the New York Times a lot because like the way that the game goes away, like you have to play it in that day, they've like now different things. It's like you can go back and play last week's or something, but for a time you have to log in at the right time to play the thing and know everyone else is playing. And if you missed Wordle, it's gone. Right. You have to do it. And you only get the one time there's this little bit of activity and you're going in and just reusing it and you think about that pull that people have to come back, right. Where it's like, oh my gosh, and how often where it's like, I just need to log in to get the, the one thing before this goes away. Like, oh no, it's 11:55 and I didn't play Wordle or whatever your other, you know, game is. People don't have that about. They will not. They'll stay in bed and not get up to go brush their teeth. Even if they realize or they forgot to floss. It's like, well, that's a bummer. But oh well, right. So like what's the pull of the game that would make you want to go do it and maybe floss or brush your teeth. Right. Or whatever the other product might be. When you think about it, that pulls someone in and I think the New York Times, many others, but they've done such an interesting and amazing job of getting people to where it becomes that like, cultural phenomenon.
- [11:05]
B
Absolutely. And what they've done well is it fits their audience really well because what works for them is not necessarily going to work for, or I don't know, maybe the washing post or someone else's audience, whether it's maybe Red Bull or Monster. Back to that. So I think what's paramount for any of those gaming strategies or efforts, or honestly consumer engagement strategies in general, is if you're a brand or a company embarking on this journey, step one has to be to get a very clear understanding of who your audience is actually is. And what I mean by that is you have to move beyond, you know, the type of, typically the superficial data that companies have access to that we use to describe audiences. It's like, well, you know, our audiences, I don't know, I'm making this up. 35 to 45 year old women in the Sunbelt states of the US which is like saying they all drink the same iced tea, they all like the same color and they all eat the same food and they all have the same daily routine, which is obviously not true. So how do you move beyond superficial data? That's actually not really descriptive of who people really are. To get to people's underlying drivers, their needs, their motivations, to then be able to embed yourself in. Well, if those are the daily habits, if those are the routines, what is my pull, what is my hook that I could latch onto to become a part of that daily habit? Because it's more than embedding yourself in the context, right? If you mentioned brushing your teeth and if you're a company in that space and you have this really cool toothbrush or you want to be part of that activity, whatever it is someone's brushing their teeth, that's contextual, you know that that's going to happen. Just because that's going to happen and you position yourself in that context doesn't mean that people are going to adopt your solution. It's about how do you embed yourself, how do you show up in that moment? And what's important is that understanding and the how has to be authentic to who you are as a company. And that's typically the second extremely important step to lay the foundation is companies and brands have to do soul searching. Who am I and what do I stand for and what are the values that my brand represents? And don't try to be something that you're not. There's a reason why the New York Times is so successful with the example that you gave. You know, notice all the different games that they have in their app are word games and puzzle games because that's authentic to who they are. That's the New York Times crossword puzzle from the 19, whatever, 40s, whatever it was, it's authentic to who they are. If they were starting to show like home renovation games or interior design or shooter games, be like the poll would go away, People wouldn't really be adopting it because it's all of a sudden completely inauthentic. So understanding your audience, soul searching around who you are, those two things, have them meet, align them as much as you can to give yourself the ability to show up authentically in those spaces. And that's the baseline to become part of people's daily habits in the first place. Because that allows you to define the hook that is right for whichever given audience that you want to interact with and engage.
- [14:13]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And like you were saying, it's the, when you think about the age, demographic, basic info, it just has so little to do. I, I always kind of go back to as being something like a parent, right? So like drop off at my kids school where I will potentially have more in common with someone who is 25 that has a kid the same age as me, then someone who is my same age that has teenagers that are like when I'm thinking about my four year old, right, like, or that has, you know, had their kids early or whatever else. And so it's not. And in that context of like if you're trying to target me as a mom or a parent or whatever that happens to be thinking about stuff that you're aiming toward my children or whatever and what it means getting them to practice and all that, then like th those aspects, I'm going to relate more to this person who is 15 years younger than I am than I would the other, you know, spoiler alert. I'm 40 now, but the other 40 year old, you know, who potentially has older kids. And so with that, you know, you're able to see that like those moments of decision, understanding, identity and like when I'm playing something. When you think about New York Times and the crossword, right. There's also that status of like playing the crossword with pen, right. That people would talk about and it's hard and that's a lot of the point, right? Because there's the status of being able to do it and being kind of smarter than everybody else if you can do that. New York Times especially, I think Sunday, right. In Penn, big deal, right. And so getting your percentage on Wordle and seeing how you compete against everyone else and how many moves you can get it in or how many different combinations you can get on the other games, if they were super easy and everyone's going to win, then that's not gonna fit and nobody's gonna be coming back. But yeah, it's interesting to. You have to know those things about who you're targeting, why it matters for them. And like you said, if you are the Washington Post or local paper, you don't need your just like version of Wordle because that might not fit your audience and demographic. There may be something else. So if we can take a step to one that I feel like is a brand that people would associate with gaming gamers in general, that feels like an obvious fit. First, the one that comes to mind for me is Chipotle. I think there were some interesting stories in the book and where you'd say like, sure, like gamer types eat burritos. So like easy a thing that makes sense. But I love the way that they've applied everything there. And then I think we can after that, you know, break into some other brands that you would say would never fit into gaming type culture that have done very well in the space. So what can you share about the Chipotle and their approach to games?
- [17:08]
B
Yeah, Chipotle started with exactly that foundation that we just, that we just talked about. So they did a lot of upfront work in being really clear on who are we as a brand and then, well, who are we really trying to engage, interact with and resonate with? And it was more than, okay, gamers. So they gravitated very much towards, we want to make sure we get in front of younger people. So it was all about younger audiences. They looked at all of the different touch points where younger audiences were. They did a lot of deeper research to supplement that. So they didn't leave it at the high level, you know, demographic or these are young people, because there's different types of young people. So they really solidified that. And what they took as a baseline for their was really kind of like their breakout foray into gaming. Because they first started with sponsoring and I don't know if you've ever seen this, there was a Fortnite House. It was like Twitch streamers. It was like three of the top global Fortnite players that were all living together in this house, the Fortnite House. And they were eating Chipotle all day while streaming themselves. So Chipotle partnered with them because the idea was, well, let's go where the product and the people and the affinity for who we are as a brand already naturally is. So they started with sponsoring streamers. That was kind of like the baseline. But then when they wanted to take it a step further, per what we just started talking about and really thinking about, okay, what are some game integrations that we can do? They quickly looked at Roblox just because the fit with the audience was there and they got to integrate with some other games pretty quickly and efficiently. So after having completed step one, that audience understanding step two was okay, where is the place where our audience shows up? They landed on Roblox. And then step three was, okay, well, what is something that is so uniquely Chipotle in the real world that we could transport to the physical world? Because that's a special thing when it happens in the physical world. How do we transport it into the digital realm? And they landed on Halloween. Not only is it, obviously it's a very special holiday for all of us, but secondly, it's a very big event for Chipotle every single year. So they have know the. It's called Burrito. They have all these special characters like Walkenstein and there's a bunch of other ones. And it's, it's actually this like fan holiday where people come dressed up to Chipotle stores to enjoy a special menu. So it, it's this whole thing. And they said, well, why not take that into the digital world? That was the, where they felt they had the strongest overlap between being able to engage that younger audience that they were targeting being, you know, authentically and Chipotle very true to that. While doing something that the Roblox platform and the gaming environments would allow them to do. So it was that trifecta that they orchestrated really, really effectively. And the outcome of that was a couple of different things. It was a very simple maze game called Burrito Maze. So you could run through the maze, collect different items, unlock different clothing pieces and special items for your Guatenstein character and other menu items. And then there was also a virtual Chipotle store restaurant that you could go into. And they were handing out, I think it was $1 million in free burritos while people were playing it until they were up. That event, that gaming activation, there's a fun fact if you Google it, there's headlines where Chipotle crashed Roblox. Because when they launched it, Roblox actually went dark for like four hours. And everyone thought it was like, because there's such a craze around Chipotle. And it actually helped boost visibility. They weren't the cause, but they were, you know, they were, they were being perceived as a reason. So it actually gave them an additional boost. But what it led to was a top 10 digital sales day in the history of the company because people would redeem their free burritos and then buy additional items either ordering online or going to their direct store. And the second thing that it led to was one of their top, I think it was also top 10 enrollment days for their rewards program, which is even more valuable than the initial, you know, money that they made in one off sales. Because now you have our loyalty member that signs up on the back end. They know how valuable these people are over the course of their, you know, their lifetime. And I asked the CMO, Chris Brand, I said $1 million in free giveaway. That's, that's a good chunk of change. And I said, did you guys make that back? And he just smiled at me and he said, yeah, it's, it took minutes. And we, because we knew based on the, basically the lifetime value of those rewards members, it was extremely profitable, it was extremely lucrative. So but yeah, they, they followed those steps pretty much, pretty much by the book. And what it did was it really set the tone and it set the stage internally to make gaming a core part of their consumer engagement strategy. So they're treating it like a dedicated platform. Like you have social media teams. They have, they have teams and people dedicated to those gaming initiatives. And it's not a one off campaign. It's a continuous effort year round where they're working on different things in different gaming platforms and different activations.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah, I love that example. And just showing kind of the evolution for one. Right. To see in their case they were fortunate to be able to see like okay, so people are, they're already eating Chipotle. So we can very quickly just sort of layer in and sponsor someone or do something. Right. And then you can kind of dip your toe in there and then you go to this next space into Roblox and setting that up which is just such a fun story. And also like good to know. I guess I'm not cool enough to be dressing up and going to Chipotle.
- [22:56]
However that. Yeah. But so cool that they're able to then find something that people are already passionate about that are the Chipotle people. Right. That get it. They're gonna go find it. And I think they had maybe it was like some of the different like skins or costumes or things you could get in the game as well. Right. And they're limited edition type thing and they, you know, those, you know go went away very quickly too. And people love that scarcity aspect. Right. So it's one thing to say and we're here all the time and like now we're, we're here and you can always get whatever you want and nothing ever changes and there's no stopping point that's not super compelling for humans to go do anything. So that scarcity that comes with that virtual space is really key too. And I know you talk about this in the book about how you can track that better now and things like that with blockchain and whatnot. So we can get into that example potentially if it makes sense like layering that in of the value. But then if we look at something that's even like where someone say okay, but like Chipotle is obvious. But when you look at maybe high fashion brands or things like that, like they're, they have no space, there's no, no need to go there and they're not going to make that money back because they're not selling something like a burrito that's really easy to go redeem no matter what. Like not everyone's gonna go buy, you know, Balenciaga or Louis Vuitton. And so there's just no point.
- [24:24]
B
But yeah, yeah, but. And I think that's the, that's the, it's a, it's a big all caps. But.
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I would put there. You know, one of my favorite examples in the book and as a part of this whole universe is actually what Burberry did because they fit that description of like, you know, high fashion luxury perfectly. And I mean they use scarcity too.
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They effectively integrated with a Blockchain based game, Web3 based game called Blankos, which is like a sandbox open environment game where you can build a lot of different things. And they launched a limited edition character set, 750 of them at a very high price point. So it was like 300 bucks, which typical for those of you who are not as familiar with that typical items or characters, especially in mobile free to play games, you're more looking at a $2, maybe five if it's expensive. So for someone to launch a $300 character in a free to play game. I remember the mythical CEO John Linden told me this story and he says I laughed at them when they said this. He's like, there's no way this is going to work. But why it was important is because to your point, the exclusivity was important to signal that because that's what Burberry is about. Not everyone has the means to purchase that trench coat or the scarf or you know, the famous, you know, plate pattern and all that. So it, it had to signal that again to stay true to that specific brand and the values. But that that character edition, the 750 was accompanied by a full virtual clothing line. It was like the summer collection of that year. It was like 2023 I believe when it launched the characters, all 750 of them sold out in 22 seconds. So that's like $225,000 in revenue, which that's already impressive in its own right. So there's absolutely a place for luxury in this because games are kind of like the place where culture lives, engagement exists, people use it to express themselves. So self expression is huge and the money is real. There was players in Counter Strike literally that spend a million dollars on a limited edition. It was like AK47 or something like a million dollars. So there's real money in these environments where people are spending serious cash on certain, you know, certain items. So all of that's, all of that's real. But I think the more important part for Burberry you know, revenue aside, was the fact that now they were actually engaging and continuously engaging with an audience who has completely different shopping behaviors than their current core customer that wears a Burberry trench coat, which is, you know, maybe people like you and me, maybe even a little bit older, who are, what's their shopping behavior? They're going to go into a store. They don't shop online first or digitally. They're old school. So they're going to go into a store. The young audience don't. They don't do that. Their initial starting point is digital and predominantly gaming. So how I look at it is they, in addition to the revenue, they actually secured access and interaction to.
- [27:37]
You know, their audience of the future who now has exposure to the brand, who can work their way up to, ooh, I want to check out that trench coat. Maybe they go to the store, maybe they buy it online. But otherwise you would have had a massive gap just driven by radically different shopping behaviors between different demographic cohorts and generations of consumers.
- [27:55]
A
Yeah.
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I know you shared stats in the book and like no pressure to have exact stats on anything, but there was something also about when someone buys a thing in a game like for their avatar, they're much more likely to then buy it for their physical self out in the real world as well, right?
- [28:16]
B
It's 86%. Yeah, it's the conversion rate from virtual to physical. So people that have purchased a virtual item, like in a gaming environment, 86% of them proceed to buy the corresponding physical item. And I think that's just, that's crazy from both an activation perspective, but also if you. This is where I love how Adidas thinks about games because they're actually thinking about it as it's a business model. It's their new business model. Where, you know, I think as long as brands are looking at gaming just like another advertising or marketing channel, you're missing the whole point. You know, you can't just go copy paste the old Playbooks, you know, look at it like social media. Let's throw a banner ad in here. Let's just do product placement in one other game. Those are interesting starting points, but if that's your idea and your strategy for this touch point, you're leaving way too much potential on the table. Where Adidas actually went as far, I mean, yes, this took them a few years, but they went through those motions. They now have an entire business unit for virtual goods. Virtual goods only. It's a dedicated business unit and it's profitable and it's. I Think, I don't want to misspeak, but I think it's the most profitable business unit internally with like 40% profit margins. It's insane. And now if you go back to the statistics of 86% conversion from virtual to physical, you have the ability to effectively monetize a consumer twice because. And I think that's the mindset shift that has to happen. A lot of people in those virtual environments, it's a second place for them. It's the second life. It's the virtual representation. They're going to go through the motions of, yeah, I'm going to buy it. I'm going to buy sneakers for 100 bucks because I want to wear those when I go to my Fortnite concert. You know, I know that can still sound crazy, but the numbers, the numbers don't lie. And if you as a brand think about connecting virtual to physical and what that could mean, that type of thinking for your business, that's when you're starting to really get to the golden opportunity that gaming can be.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah. I mean, fascinating with all of that, for sure. And like you said, building a totally new division around it, which of, like, you don't have to actually make any real clothes or sew things together. Of course, you're, you know, sewing together the ones and zeros or what have you. Right. But like, it's the worst analogy or metaphor I think I've ever used, but I accept it. It's fine, it happened. We're moving beyond. It's okay.
- [30:41]
B
But I'd like to see someone saw, you know, together.
- [30:48]
A
It'll. It'll happen now. We're just going to make it. But with that too. It feels like a really great testing space too. Right. Because you can see if you're thinking about making a new type of shoe or a new color combination or whatever it is, you can go put it in your store in that virtual space and you can see, let's like for ab testing purposes, right. Before you go create the actual physical product. You could have it, be there and see, oh, yeah, actually the red one did way better than the blue. And then you're able to go create the one. But also this, like, camaraderie that comes from the people that would be in that blue group if it did come around, they might be really passionate about those blue shoes and you can market directly to them. Right. Like you have them here. The way that, you know, you're able to use that information to help people to see, hey, this now exists as a real thing. And you can go get it. Super cool. As we consider now for people that are, I'm hoping, you know, excited about what some of those possibilities are. You do a really great job in the book of kind of listing out, you know, where we start. Do I have to make my own games? Do I, or do I have to go into someone else's game? Do I have to hire someone to do this internally? Do I need a whole department for virtual goods when I get started? You know, what are the paths that people can take as they consider this? Like, and what should they be thinking about as they figure out what's going to be a good fit for them and their brand?
- [32:16]
B
Yeah, it's a great question, Molina. I would separate it into. Well, there's the actual strategies around how do you enter the gaming space and then what do you do organizationally? Because that's, there's both of those are really, really important and they're not necessarily going to be or they're not necessarily related to people depending on what you do. But there's some good high level learnings that apply across all spaces, all companies, all types of organizations. So in terms of entering video gaming as a space and using that for your own company, I lay out honestly four fairly simple strategic pathways. The first one is, and they all build on each other with increasing complexity. And the first one is enter and integrate with a video game that already exists. So that could be product placement. You could do maybe a themed event inside of a game. Henkel, the big German consumer goods company is like one of the top 10 consumer goods companies globally. They have this hair care brand called Schwarzkopf, which they did an integration with Final Fantasy 14 where now you could color the avatars in the game in different types of colors with hair dyes that are branded. It's a, I'm not saying that that's a good example. I, I looked into that like they could have got a lot of other places, but it's, it's that type of example where you can integrate with a game that's already there. Big benefits are there's a live audience, you don't have to work about, attract, you know, worry about attracting people. They're already there. Your technical lift is much, much lighter. You can do something that's contained in a contained environment, lower lift, learn, iterate and then scale from there. The second pathway is you build your own game. Obviously a lot more complex, bigger lift, you need different resources. The big benefit is you get to build and shape and control the environment from scratch and literally Build it around who you are as a brand and what you want to accomplish, which is one of the fundamental differences compared to social media channels. Because you can't shape your Instagram channel as a brand, you can shape the content, you can't shape the experience on the channel or in your meta newsfeed or TikTok, you're confined to what the platform gives you. It's a very different story with, with, with brands, with, with games. The third one is basically either of those two first ones, but you layer a Web three technology element into kind of like the Burberry example. That's this third. The third strategy with the difference being blockchain technology just offers you additional opportunities around monetization, tracking, data, ownership of facets, and basically a long tail engagement, because typically in after sales, in a marketplace where you have continuous engagement with the audience and your brand. And the fourth one is how do you make games a part of your own product? Which is. That's the one that gets closest, but actually does gamification. Right. So we're kind of coming full circle to how we started the conversation. So rather than again slapping confetti on a screen, how do you do what Peloton did, which is an example that I cover in depth in the book, where they actually build workout content in form of a full fledged standalone video game. So you're cycling on your peloton bike and you're going through the motions of you're actually riding your Peloton bike and the game is simulating that now just over more than half of all Peloton workouts on a Peloton bike are conducted in a video game and not through instructor LED content. So rather than having a person yell at you while you're biking, you're actually playing a video game while you're biking. People come back for more workouts on a weekly basis. The workouts are longer, so it has lasting effects on engagement and retention as well. That's the closest to quote, unquote, gamification. But you're actually taking it a step, a step further. Duolingo is another great one in that quadrant where they had a standalone, you know, language learning app. They gradually shifted that through gamification towards the thing literally feels like a mobile game, that when you're learning your language, it's like you're playing a game, you know. And to take it another step further, they just acquired a mobile game studio with a music mobile game to start offering, you know, musical classes and classes for learning music and different instruments through playing a Video game. So that's that fourth quarter quadrant, obviously a lot more complex and you can work your way through those different quadrants. You could start, you know, at any point in time. But they, they, they do connect in terms of the challenge and the complexity to go through them. And that brings me to the organizational setup and, and what do you have to put in place internally? And there's a lot of different learnings in the book that are really important that I lay out. But if I had to just pick maybe two, I would say the first one is.
- [36:59]
Don'T go with your knee jerk reaction and make this a marketing initiative that might be the right home internally to have your marketing team lead this. It might not be. So instead make it a cross functional initiative. If you're starting out, get people from product, from marketing, from Insights, legal, finance, get them all on board from day one so that everyone has skin in the game and everyone is involved and knows what to expect and what this can be so that there are no surprises down the road. And then the second one is related to that. I would say when you're starting, don't go with titles, don't go with the obvious fit of this is the person that should do this per their job description. Recruit the willing and the curious. That's what I'd like to say. Because people that are passionate about this topic, they're going to go the extra mile, they're going to dig deeper, they're going to go into the culture, they're going to spend time in Reddit threads on Reddit forums, they're going to spend time in Discord and they're going to come back with the actual insights and the actual things from a cultural perspective that matter to help shape you how you best show up in, in, in these places. So those would be my definitely number one. Number two, maybe a third one for bonus is if you're just starting out, it's your first one. Don't go it alone. Get it, get a partner. Get someone you don't have to hire a full team and build a team internally. Hire a really good partner. There's tons of great parties out there that can help with this type of work. Find a good partner, find a good consultant who's been in gaming in the past to have an outside partner that can help spar with you on this to help with the educational ramp up. Because there will be a ramp up in terms of just learning about the space and what it means to go into it.
- [38:39]
A
Absolutely. Of course. So many directions I could go from as you were talking, it's like thoughts here, thoughts there. But I think one is, I'm guessing the big fear. What should be a fear for people that's maybe holding them back a little bit is this idea of if you.
- [38:58]
You go in there being yourself and you do the thing and you think you're gonna land and everybody like eye rolls you and walks away because you're, you're so obviously in your own world. You don't get us. Right. And so I think that, that there's the identity of the way that we in Fortnite, the language we use or the way we act is different than in Roblox, which is different than in whatever other games that would exist. And so knowing how those people talk, what they're looking for, what they're interested in, those, the social norms that exist in the game you really want and need to understand before you go fit yourself in. And so, you know, potentially even like as you were saying, someone who's curious and passionate, interested. I would think if you had someone on your team who was really into a game enough that could say, could see the vision of I could I get how we could bring Burberry or like Balenciaga in here. It'd be like really cool. I think people would like it. You can kind of go maybe with a hunch of somebody who really gets it, doesn't have to be the perfect game but like that right person that fit, that gets it, that sees it and can help bring it together versus like nobody's ever heard of this game at our company. But we're going to try and just like drop a shop in there and see what happens.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [40:24]
A
Yeah. So I know there are so, so many questions. I'll say do you have any favorite games, what do you like to play and or do you have another example that you think is helpful for companies as they're thinking about how they might be moving forward with, with this idea of games in their organizations?
- [40:46]
B
Yeah, I have a lot of favorite games and I wouldn't consider myself a gamer. Back to, you know, the early first part of this conversation. I grew up on, I've always played more on console than anything else. I grew up on all the different sports franchises. I remember playing FIFA and NHL with my dad back in the day.
- [41:08]
Favorite current ones that I'm playing right now is an RPG game, Ghost of Tsushima. They actually have the follow up, the sequels coming out in October I think Ghost of Yotei, which looks really cool if you're into Japanese culture and Japanese history. You definitely check it out. And then my oldest daughter, she's six and a half, she is allowed to play Nintendo Switch now and we play Mario World. So we play Super Mario Kart together and race around the racetracks, which is an insane amount of fun. Yeah, those are the ones that I play. I think in terms of examples, there's so many different ones in the book. What I will say is this really applies to any company in any industry. I was giving a talk a couple of weeks ago at Gamescom, which is the world's largest video gaming conference on this topic, and I had two partners from a law firm come up to me afterwards, a multinational law firm, saying, well, we didn't know what to expect from this, but this is even relevant for our line of business. Which is true. I started my career at the Boston Consulting Group back in the day. One of the first projects that I worked on was we actually built a video game for both internal education and then also for clients to help people think about business strategy differently. So, yes, it is for fast moving consumer goods, yes, it is for luxury fashion houses and it could be for some of the most seemingly boring or mundane or traditional, even B2B businesses that could leverage this. So I think I gave Henkel and their Hair Die brand as one example with the Final Fantasy one. I really want to stress this point again, like use tools that are out there to get a quick valid understanding of where the audience is. So for example, I used a tool called Alaris. And when you actually look up the Schwarzkopf brand audience for that particular tool, there's no Final Fantasy to be found in the top 200 games that this audience plays globally. It's just not there. There's no affinity, there's no overlap. But the top fifth game is a game called Design Home, which is a pretty popular mobile game. See, there you go.
- [43:19]
A
I was going to say it's one of my favorite games.
- [43:22]
B
There you go. And the overlap between that audience and the shampoo and the hair care brand's audience is significant. And they align from visual perspective, a value perspective. So. And it didn't. It took me five minutes to get to those conclusions and to find that information and then go to, okay, let me take some next steps. And what could a marketing brief be? How would we do an integration? What are some of the ideas? So I just want to stress that point for anyone that's listening is don't, don't just go off of gut feel, don't go off of high Level assumptions don't go off of what is the game that you would like to see the brand and what is the game that you like to play. That's not necessarily the best starting point. And also don't start this conversation internally with we need a gaming strategy. That's the outcome. You're going to get a lot more buy in internally if you start with well, what is our business, what are our business objectives, what does our company need to do, who's our consumer, who's our audience and how do we achieve our business goals with our audience. Okay, great. Gaming is one important piece to that puzzle. Now let's talk about what could a strategy for going into that space look like. So don't start at the end, start at the beginning. And you're going to get a lot more buy in internally from especially the finance and the CFO function because they're going to have to sign off on something that nine out of ten of them have probably never signed off budget for in their career. So that's going to be new to them as well.
- [44:54]
A
Awesome. Well, I am intrigued to see how the haircare brand is going to make its way into design home because they should. It's Yes.
- [45:03]
I love. I have been fascinated with this game for years as I've played it and I find myself I'm always, you know, begging my husband to buy me diamonds but it's just in the game that I can use to buy it new wall art or rugs or things. But the way that and my mom's an interior designer and so seen actually we have some, some furniture that I have. I've seen the pattern and thing in the game. Right. But it's actual brands and actual things at the real price points that it would be the way that it normalizes it. And if you buy things another shop it gives you credits that you can be buying it is super cool and we'll find we'll have another maybe conversation all about that game because I think it's fascinating but we're out of time today. So for everyone who is now so excited to get their copy of Press Play and to learn all about this moment more in depth and to follow you and learn more in addition to links we'll have in the show notes, what's the best way for them to follow you? Get the book. Learn more.
- [46:02]
B
Yeah, if you want to check out the book there's a dedicated website called pressplaystrategy.com there's all your favorite book resellers, all the different platforms out there. Obviously you can hit up your local bookshop, which I'm always a huge fan of. If you want to follow me, connect me. We could talk about any of the ideas that you guys might have around this find me on LinkedIn, add me. It's a great place and also my own substack called Technically Entertaining. There's also an Instagram profile around that. But yeah, I guess we'll put the links in the show notes but the usual places LinkedIn substack and press playstrategy.com for the book.
- [46:40]
A
Perfect. Well like we said, we'll put those links in there. And thank you again so much for the conversation. I am looking at all my games in a whole new way as we move forward and can't wait to see what's on the horizon. For everybody who's been been listening and is inspired from today's conversation, of course from when they get the book as well. It's really cool stuff.
- [47:01]
B
Thanks for having me. Melina.
- [47:03]
A
Thank you again to Bastian Bergman for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, it's the reminder that a gaming strategy isn't just about self identified gamers and it's way more than sprinkling in a few points or badges. It's about understanding and designing for real human behavior. Building for curiosity instead of compliance helps you shift from an experience that feels like it's forced upon you that people might resist into something that they can't help but engage with and keep naturally coming back to. And that made me think about how powerful play is as a learning tool. When we play, experiment, fail safely and try again. That's how habits form, innovation happens, and teams grow stronger. So whether you're thinking about your customers, your employees, or your own personal development, there is so much to gain by asking what would happen if instead of chasing attention, we designed for immersion. After all, if 3 billion people play every day, what might your business be missing out on by sitting on the sidelines? So what about you? I would love to hear what stood out for you from today's episode. Whatever it is, come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere. And as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn, there are links in the show notes to make it easy, along with links to my top related past episodes and books, including press play, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com555.
- [48:40]
And thank you again to Bastian Bergman for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
- [49:04]
B
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.