← The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics
570. Navigating the Emotional Landscape of B2B Sales
00:52:36
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- [00:01]
A
Hey there, Melina. Here. Really quick. Before we get into the episode, I want to let you know about something exciting happening right now. If you enjoy learning about behavioral economics and are ready to start connecting more of the dots, I've got a class for you. The Advanced Concepts of Behavioral Economics course, which is part of the certificate program in applied Behavioral Economics via Texas A M University, is enrolling now. Over 10 weeks, we look at how behavioral science concepts start working together in the real world. Each week we explore behavioral economics through a different lens. Things like context, clarity, confidence, and choice so you can start successfully applying the science in your everyday work. The class kicks off on April 10th. It's fully virtual and you're going to be learning alongside a cohort of curious brainy professionals from around the world, including optional live office hours with me along the way. To learn more and claim your spot, go to the brainy business.com class. Again, that's the Brainy Business class. To learn more and claim your spot. You don't want to wait another year on this one. I can't wait to see you in class. And when you're ready, let's start the show. Welcome to episode 570 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Ben Wise and Darren Chu, co founders of Captivate. Ready? Let's get started.
- [01:36]
B
You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.
- [01:52]
A
Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. You know, I love questions and I get a lot of them, which is awesome. As you might expect, some of them come up more often than others. And over the years, one of the questions I hear pretty regularly goes something like this. Melina, I get how these concepts apply when you're selling to consumers, but I sell B2B when we're talking about large budgets with buying committees. In that corporate environment, it isn't like selling B2C. See, this is a more logical experience. So I don't need to think about this behavioral stuff in the same way, right? Well, of course I understand why people want that to be true. But when you actually look at how decisions unfold inside organizations, they rarely follow a clean, logical path. Instead, you have people with different priorities and incentives. There's someone trying to look smart in the meeting, someone trying to not be blamed later thinking about their career. And sometimes there is a quiet influencer super user shaping the outcome who isn't even on your org chart or radar. So when you start to see how those dynamics play out, it becomes pretty clear that understanding people is just as important in B2B as it is anywhere else. And because it includes more people creating additional complexity and this interwoven web of sorts, I'd argue it's often even more important than it is with B2C. So when I started talking with Ben about an episode we could do together, I knew this would be a great topic to explore. Ben and Darren both work at Google and have spent years operating in complex B2B environments, incorporating their love of behavioral economics and behavioral science into that B2B selling and more so there. And through their company Captivate, they share practical tools for applying ideas from psychology and behavioral science to persuasion, communication, sales, and decision making. They're frequent speakers at conferences and corporate training programs on these topics. And while we are going to talk a little bit about their work at Captivate, our conversation today mostly centers around tips that you can use to apply behavioral science and psychology into your B2B selling. As you listen to our conversation, here's a question to keep in mind. When you're working on a B2B sale, how confident are you that you understand who is really influencing the decision? And if there's someone that you don't know about yet, who might that be and how can you find them really quickly? Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@thebrainybusiness.com 570. Now let's jump right in. Ben, Darren, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
- [04:55]
B
Thank you. Great to be here. Excited to chat.
- [04:57]
C
Thank you.
- [04:58]
A
Awesome. Well, I'm super excited to be chatting with you both today as well. But for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourselves and the work that you do?
- [05:08]
B
Sure thing. So my name is for listeners who can't see who's talking. My name is Ben. The other voice, Darren, you want to say hi?
- [05:16]
C
Hello. Hi.
- [05:18]
B
Not at all. Awkward. So we together are the founders of a company called Captivate. We're kind of on a mission to take the research from psychology and behavioral science and make it useful for people in the business world. So we run a monthly newsletter. We do lots of social content. We do public speaking, whether it's conferences, corporate events, corporate trainings, podcasts like this. All about psychology in persuasion and communication and change management and storytelling. Just to make it more accessible to people in a way that's actually going to be useful in their day to day jobs.
- [05:54]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And like kindred spirits, which of course is, you know, why I wanted to have you on the show. Darren, anything to add?
- [06:02]
C
He nailed it.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah, he knows what's up.
- [06:05]
C
Yeah, what he said.
- [06:08]
A
Perfect. Well, today we are going to be digging in on, you know, B2B sales and behavioral economics. And I know I get this question from people all the time. You know, if it's someone who's thinking about like, well, should I read your book? Or is this class actually for me? Or whatever it is, because they'll say something along the lines of like, well, like that stuff for like, consumers are that way. But like B2B is different. We're less emotional. It's all more rational. It's not the same. This stuff doesn't apply. I of course have thoughts on that. But what do, what do you all think about that?
- [06:44]
B
I suspect we have similar thoughts on this.
- [06:46]
C
Yes, the answer is no, don't do it. No.
- [06:53]
B
I mean, to be like, this is probably the most common. Not sure if I'd call it an objection that we hear. We do a presentation and someone raises their hand and says the exact same. Like, I can see why that works for consumers, But I sell B2B or I market B2B and they're rational because it's like, you know, I'm selling to a corporation as though there is this faceless entity that is the corporation that has a robot making decisions, which obviously isn't the case when you're selling to a corporation. There's a human there, there's a. Whether it's a procurement person or you know, whichever stakeholder you're talking to, you're across the table from another person. And all people have some similarities in the way our brains are wild, in the way that we interact with information, the way that we make decisions and they are emotional. And so I love when people push back because the irony is they get so emotional about not being emotional. And it's like, if only you could appreciate how emotional you sound right now. You're proving my point without even realizing it. But this is, if anything it's, it's, it's more important, I would say, in B2B because it's going to be smaller conversations, a lot of bnb especially in sales is one to many or sorry, one to one or one to a few. Whereas consumers, you're doing one to many. So you've got to kind of smooth things out a bit. If you know your audience in a, in a one to one or, you know, we've got two or three people on the other side of the table, you can think through some of these psychology principles. You're going to have a way bigger toolkit to help get to the outcomes and be successful in the way that you want to.
- [08:23]
A
It's an interesting way to present that. Go ahead, Darren, what were you going to say? I think you're having similar thoughts. Go ahead.
- [08:29]
C
Yeah, I was saying that it's funny that Ben said that B2B almost seems like it's arguably more important. And I think we know this intuitively because if you watch all the Hollywood movies, all these big deals, very massive deals are happening in a very confrontational or intense scene where you win the deal all over. It's very often a B2B situation. I think a lot of that situation actually gets heightened to Ben's point when the stakes are higher or you have more of a one on one conversation that you need to have.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah. And that's with. When it comes to my kind of argument on this is like, you know, you have, it's actually, you need to know these things even more because you have not just like one person you're trying to convince, they're like 10 people. Right. It's this buying by committee and if you don't know about the like random super user in whatever department who has a like heavy status quo bias and says like, well I'm not going to use that new system and so like you'll have to fire me if you're going to do it. Like that can just derail everything and if you don't think about them, you know, you're, you know, dead in the water, as it were.
- [09:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean that just comes down to so much of applying all these, is the way that you listen and, and being able to understand like the underlying true meaning of what they're talking about or what they're saying and, and figure out what they're feeling or what those objections are or when it's, you know, oftentimes the objection's not in the room with you. Like you said, there's that power user somewhere in some other department that has an amazing amount of sway because they're the biggest power user and people go to them. And if you don't know that because you haven't been listening, you haven't been uncovering that stuff, then you're dead in the water.
- [10:09]
A
Right.
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C
One of the questions we like to tell people to ask at one point the meeting is, is there someone else who's not in this room might have reservations about what we talked about today? And it's just a great way to open that conversation.
- [10:24]
A
Right. And do you. So that's a good, that's a great question. When you're in the meeting, is there any other stuff that you advise for people or as you think about, like if you were training a new salesperson and wanting them to be thinking about some of the behavioral stuff and where it comes into play, like stuff to prep before the meeting, in the meeting, like, what are some, you know, key points you would advise for anybody who's getting into or is already in B2B sales?
- [10:49]
B
I, I think, I mean to, to start, I would say getting a sense of who's going to be in the room in the first place and the level of influence and power that they have. Like, are they, you know, a lot of times the first couple of meetings you have are not with the decision maker. You've got to get through some layers to get to that person who can sign on the dotted line and different people, you know, getting the right folks in the room or getting access to them as follow ups, but also understanding, you know, so much of B2B, you have a functional area that's buying something from you and then you have a procurement team who's the one that need to like grill you to get a better deal. And everybody on that side has a different objective and cares about different things that's coming back to that emotional side. What, what does this person care about? And if you have a sense of like, I'm talking to the, an end user, I'm talking to the person who's going to use the data to report to the C suite or to the board. I'm talking to procurement, who needs to show a win. Understanding their emotional state and their emotional drivers is going to be different from person to person and conversation to conversation. But like starting with, do you have the right people? Who are you talking to and what are the, why does this matter to them? Not at a functional level. It's not like, well, this goes 14% faster and you'll be able to do this 2.4 times more often or blah, blah, blah. It's what, what do they emotionally feel about this? Is it, they don't like change, is it the status quo bias? Is it, hey, maybe this is a great opportunity for me to look like a hero and get a promotion and understanding that emotional motivation that's going to be kind of you're starting and ending for everything.
- [12:27]
A
Definitely. I absolutely agree with all of that. And having that list, like you said, even just knowing with like pure procurement typically wants and needs a win, it is fascinating how it's like that we think about anchoring. Right. And so it's like it may seem, it's like haggling or whatever it is, right. But it's like they need you to come in and say it's going to be a hundred thousand dollars so you can get a win and get it for 90 sometimes, even if it was always going to be 90. And if you would have said if you need it to be a hundred, then just say it's 120 at the beginning. Because you know that there's like a weird negotiation when not every company has that, but some have a percentage they're needing to aim for. And if you know those things, it can help so you aren't caught off guard and lose the sale over it. And also, like, it's kind of a weird policy. It's a, it's a weird. It's a very obvious, like, COBRA effect problem, which I think is so funny. Right. Like that. Okay, so we know we just have to ask for more to get the win and they'll feel like they're checking the box, but that's neither here nor there.
- [13:31]
B
But surprisingly common at the same time.
- [13:34]
C
Yeah, very common.
- [13:35]
A
Yeah. Yes, we can see how that came into play. So I know one thing I found over the years is having an internal champion that you know, can help continue that sales process on the inside, when I'm not there is helpful and for my clients, too. Is that something that you, you know, would advocate for or any, if so, any tips to find one and how to support them in that process?
- [14:01]
C
It's definitely important to have one for sure. And. And I think that kind of goes to what Ben was saying earlier about knowing your customer. Because sometimes you go into a room and you think you're talking to someone from the C level, but you just don't know who else is in that room, who has the year of that decision maker. And if you don't really know who you're talking to or if you're not treating everyone with respect and then really trying to listen to what everyone has to say and understand what their needs are, you could easily Ignore or neglect someone who has the ears of the CEO or the coo, whoever. In terms of how to find that person, my guess is really, really different from client to client. I can only say from my own personal experience that that person kind of just naturally surfaces as you have that interaction. One thing I would say, though, is whenever I find that person, very often is when the company is going through some sort of change. Whenever a company or team going through change, opportunity or opportunities or challenges will present themselves, and usually there will be one or two people who will step up to the challenge, whether because they didn't have a choice or they just naturally are, you know, more inclined to. To address the change or the challenge that arises. So I like, I like to observe when that happens and be, oh, this is my champion. This person is all of a sudden more leaned in because of this change that we are trying to push forward. So I don't know. I have a great answer for that, but I think it's something that I just try to pay attention to.
- [15:32]
A
Ben, what about you?
- [15:33]
B
I would build that. Like, I think the psychology behind finding that champion is really interesting. Part of it is going to be the idea of credibility. If I'm trying to sell you something, and I'm from a different, like, you know, it's my job to sell you something, so you will like, automatically take everything I say with a bit of a grain of salt and that's normal. Like, that's a natural human reaction. And having an internal champion who says the same things that the seller might say, but as an internal person, that is going to come across just way more credible than having having the seller say it. Another, like, I think key element there is the idea of the endowment effect, where if you build, if you're part of creating something, you are more bought into it being successful. So if you have an internal champion and they're. They're like, people know they're the champion for it and they have put in some of that effort and made some commitment towards that outcome. They are going to be so much more bought in. So. So being able to cultivate those internal champions, just not only does it get the credibility, but it makes you that much more successful because they're going to want it, whatever it is you're selling, they're going to want your product or service that much more if they are championing it too.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And so there's that balance of having a set like, this is the thing we pitch and this is what we do, and having a bit of room or space where that person is able to be a part of, like, well, do you think we should go A or B or what feels like the best fit for your team? If they can be part of shaping the ultimate proposal that's coming into play there, they're going to be more on board with, you know, helping to fight or advocate for it as time goes on.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah. And you think about most things that are getting sold B2B, it's not like, oh, here, here's my widget. There's one version of the widget. Here you go. It's. We have this package of stuff, and let's figure out what within this giant menu makes the most sense for you, and they can help you build out what. What is the, like, suite of products or things that we need from this offering. And again, that's a way getting them involved, getting them committed to it. It's that endowment effect that is going to make them much more bought in.
- [17:47]
A
I'm so glad that you said that, because I definitely want to talk about the overwhelm paradox of choice friction data nightmare that comes in a lot of B2B sales. Right where it feels like I need to tell you everything. I've got all the charts and these are all the options, so pick what you want. I'm not even going to ask a question. I'm going to say, that's like, enough of a setup to say, like, thoughts about how terrible that is and how to make it? Yeah, I mean, it's.
- [18:13]
B
I mean, lots of. Really. I'm going to nerd out for a second, but you said, like, that's a perfect fit, so I'm going to go for it. I mean, Yes. I can't remember the exact details of the study where they took a bunch of jams to a farmer's market and when they had six options, they sold lots. When they had 20 options, people bought lots of. Bought far less because they were just so overwhelmed by too much choice that they couldn't make a decision. Our brains are, like, inherently wired to try to be quick and efficient and kind of lazy. And if I. If the choice is too hard, then even if the outcome is good, even if I want jam, I can't make this too. I'm just gonna go, it's too much for me. And it's the same anywhere. So if you're, you know, when you're selling B2B, you put too much in front of them, especially at once. Like, let me just show you this giant menu of services. Here's the. You know 47 different things we offer. You're. You're not going to go far that way. I think it's really understanding. And again, what we said, are we coming back to that? Like good discovery, really listening what are their pain points and then adjusting. So it's not about your product. It's like we are going to solve your problem. And your problem is X, Y will do that for you. And we can get into the technical stuff later, but you don't want to overwhelm with them with that. You're selling them not your features. You're selling them a solution to what problem or opportunity they need to chase. Right.
- [19:32]
C
You guys heard of that the shoemaker story?
- [19:35]
A
I had something pop into my brain that is probably wrong. So you say what you're.
- [19:39]
B
It's probably the one.
- [19:40]
C
Maybe there's only one.
- [19:42]
B
I'm curious too.
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A
No, I. I'm thinking of like fables of shoemakers and elves and I don't think that's right. So you go, no, think.
- [19:47]
C
I don't think this was a real shoemaker. I just. But the details of the story escaped. Escaped me. But there was a shoemaker in a small town. He was very successful in his whole life. Built a giant business through. Just. Just tightened to the shoe shop. And before he retired, someone asked him that, what is your secret? Because a lot of shoe stores in this town didn't make it. And he said, my secret is two, not three. He said every time when a customer comes in, they ask for first pair of shoes to try out. I'm like, great, go. Here's your first pair. They asked for a second pair. I give them their second pair. They ask for a third pair. He goes, okay, great. Which pair of these three would you like me to take away before you try on the third pair? So no matter how many more pairs he brings out, he always keeps it at 2. Not to say 2 is wherever the magic number, but just the idea of always trying to help him filter out noise and just easier for them to make the decision. So I think it's just like when our clients are bombarded with so many things. One of the things I always love to ask them is if you have to rank these four items from 1 to 4, how would you rank them? And they usually will rank them for me and I'll just try to remove the last one or last two just to help move the conversation forward.
- [21:01]
A
Absolutely. That's great. I have not heard that story, but I love that and that continual choice.
- [21:07]
B
And I'm going to Google Elves later. Yeah, I'm very curious about the fable with the elves and the shoemakers, but maybe for different. Different podcasts, we'll do that.
- [21:17]
A
Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, it's like. I think it's more cobblers and whatever and having, like, no shoes or whatever for their family sort of deal. Because you don't take care of your own stuff. Right. When you're a marketer, you have the worst marketing sort of approach. Right. Yeah. I knew it was the wrong thing, but it was like you said shoemaker, and it was the only thing that was in my head. And it was like, that could be someone's last name, name. I don't know what we're talking about, but I'm guessing what I got here is not it.
- [21:42]
B
Well, change yours, Darren. You should change yours to, say, cobbler instead of shoemaker and it becomes, like, 20% more persuasive. Right?
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C
That's so true.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Yeah.
- [21:54]
A
Well, I do love that, though, too. It also kind of gets people in the habit of making decisions. There's the, like, decision snowball that. So there's a balance. Right. So I can see one side of it is if I'm continually, like, filtering and making some choices, it's helping to. Where we don't have 87 pairs of shoes or whatever it is we're deciding on. But also there's the other side. If you do that too much, where it's like, okay, I said one new thing, so make a new choice. Make a choice, make a choice. Someone could have that decision fatigue very quickly and be just like, I can't deal with this anymore. You've stressed out my brain, and I'm like, out of here. And then, like, status quo all day. Have. Do you have any sort of advice of, like, a sweet spot on that, Darren, or just kind of like, intuitive?
- [22:38]
C
I mean, I guess yes and no. I mean, one of the most common one is three. It's like three. And then this kind of goes a little bit back to what we talked about earlier around anchoring. It's like, very often it's a very common strategy you see in marketing, that people will present three offers and one of them is usually ridiculously high, and one of them is usually with ridiculously reasonable. And then the one that was usually ridiculously basic. And most people would just go for the most reasonable one. That's a very common tactic that you see a lot now. Three or two. Which one's better or worse? I'll be honest, I don't see any studies for that. But I do know that by just by how common we see this, you know, three marketing, three tier marketing strategy that we see is it. I would say it works very well for the general public. I definitely have heard that 2 is even better than 3 just because it's A and B. It's easier a choice for the consumers. But I think that three things I see everywhere in marketing.
- [23:43]
A
Yeah.
- [23:43]
B
The way this comes to life I think is going to be very different for B2C versus B2B where if I'm selling phones, I only have so many lines of phones. Whereas a B2B sale is probably much bigger, much more complex. So I think that's a good call out that idea of decision fatigue. Like you could have your client fully bought in or your prospect fully bought in. They want it but they still need to figure out some of those details with you. And I think it's important as you called out like you got to break it up into bite sized chunks or manageable chunks with a bit of a plan. Otherwise like you got 18 decisions to make in the next half an hour and then we can sign the contract and like you're going to lose the deal doing that. You know, we've got a whole bunch of things we need to sort out. Can we set up three or four follow ups and we can probably bang through two or three at a time in each one of those and keep it, keep it bite size.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah. And the choice architecture is a big piece of that. Right. So being able to in the case of like using the phones as an example for the B2C easy comparison. Right. Being like so are you here for Apple or anything else? Right. Do you want an iPhone or something else? And that's like a common thing. Right. And then it's maybe do we want the, the Google or Samsung, Android, whatever other options there are, you know, we're able to see if somebody has a preference. So maybe you can choose. Like for you is like, you know, if you're leaning away from like an Apple phone, you would say like hey, what's your favorite brand? What would you be loyal to? What are you looking for? Are you open to something new? Right. You can think about the questions you're going to ask. Whereas you know, if you work for, for Apple, you know, you would ask a different question that when you're encouraging someone in, in how you would be asking those things and that can help to say like do you care most about pictures and storage? Are you doing a lot with video? You can ask some thoughtful questions that they're able to explain how they use that, that you can then be narrowing down and make a recommendation of like, based on, you know, people like you. We've got social proof here to say, like, here's option A, B or C. You can work your anchors in there, but they've answered some questions to help you give them a recommendation versus you. Then don't want to say, okay, thank you for telling me those things. Here are the 47 things we could talk about. What do you want to, where do you want to start? That's a good way to not sell anything.
- [26:04]
C
Yeah.
- [26:04]
B
And if you have a good relationship, which is so much of the foundation, like they're going to trust a little bit of your judgment on filtering. Like, based on what you've told me, I think these three options probably are going to be one of them that's going to be the best fit. Can we go through these in more detail? And if they trust you, they'll be like, sure, I don't need to see the other 10 because I believe that you have filtered those accurately for me.
- [26:24]
C
One last thing I'll add is whether your choice, the choice you're presenting is two or three or four. I think the biggest important, the most important part is actually how you frame those choices. Like for example, if you, if it's, if you give them three choices, you know, the business context, maybe with a B, B2B situation, you're trying to talk about how they're going to grow their business. Maybe you're saying that, hey, this is a crawl, walk and run. So there's three stages to your business and you're framing as three different stages. And you know, they care about all those three stages. So it's very business relevant and they can really contextualize what each choice represents for the business. Or if it's two, then maybe you can say one is about defending market share, the other one is about attacking market share. Completely different ideas, but both beneficial for their business. But just frame it for them properly so they're making choices more based on how it relates their specific problem.
- [27:19]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Useful as you're thinking about those conversations and what's going to, you know, care what someone's going to care about in that, in that process. I really love your, you know, in your TEDx you talk about three basic human truths. I think we want to at least talk a little bit about what those things are and you know, how that layers in, you know, into B2B type sales would be really great.
- [27:48]
B
Sure. So I guess we can start with what they are. So basically we, you know, talking earlier about how emotional we are all as decision makers, which can be very daunting because you're like, oh, people are so irrational. How are we going to ever deal with this? And then when we go into a lot of the research, what we found is they kind of all those different quirks of how our biases often they tend to fall in kind of these three consistent patterns. So that that is what we refer to as our three basic human truths. The first one, people are lazy and they hate change. Whether that is, you know, we make a lot of jokes about the, you know, don't want to get off my couch to change the channel. But it's also like the mental shortcuts people will take in order to make decisions. The second one is that perceptions can and do change constantly. So you know, the joke we like to share on this one is, you know, when you just had dinner and you go shopping for milk and eggs, you come back with milk and eggs. You go shopping before dinner and you're hungry, you're going to spend $300 and come back with eight bags of chips. Because your perceptions are easily altered. And there's lots of ways to do that in a B2B setting. You know, we talked about anchoring as, as a prime example of, of how you can change someone's perceptions by the way that you might anchor something. And then the last one and like, the most fundamental is that people buy from people. And you know, going back to your very first question of like what people say in B2B, I don't care if you work for a company, you are still a person and people buy from people. And that individual relationship is going to be foundational to, especially in bnb, to any, any deal you're ever going to cover or any deal that you're going to win. It's going to be so important.
- [29:25]
A
Yeah, absolutely. With that think about the relationship piece. I think like you said, we've talked about some of the aspects of the first two kind of a little bit more and not really dug in on that. Like trust building relationships, like so often when it comes to, you know, these B2B sales, they are very long term. It might be years of talking to someone before you actually close that deal. Like, what's the advice of like. And I know Ben, you were saying earlier where it's like, you know, I'm here trying to sell you something and people are kind of like expecting you're trying to win them over, but you actually want to build genuine relationships, but you can't get too close or whatever else.
- [30:06]
C
Right.
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A
Like what, what are your tips and thoughts on building those connections in a good way over a long span of time in B2B?
- [30:15]
B
Darren, you want to go here?
- [30:17]
C
Yeah. One of the things we want to talk about, and we kind of talked about this in our change management keynote, it's about painting a future for your customer. And also the way we talk about painting a future is like, you know, it's going to be a long term sale. One of the most important things that you need to have a shared vision. And the best way to convey a shared vision is to tell them where we're going, how we're going to get there and what it's going to look like once we get there. And this will just keep everyone continuously in line and just march under the same drum beat. So any one of these three elements is missing. These people will easily drop off, easily lose their connection. You're not one team working towards one goal anymore. So in the case of long term sales, I think that's very important. Always talk about, hey, where we're going, you know, a year from now, here's what you're trying to achieve. We're going to be a million dollar company. You know how we're going to get there. These three things that you've incorporated into your business through our help, we can help you get there. What is it going to look like? Well, once we get there, it's going to enable you to do this. It's going to, you're going to grow your sales by this much, you're going to grow your resources by this much and so forth. So if you keep continuously reiterating, that will be a really good way to just either, either build a connected connection with your people and also making sure that we're not swaying away from our goal.
- [31:46]
B
Yeah, I, I think especially in, you know, B2B tends to be a long sales cycle. So and, and often a lot of B2B relationships, it's not like, okay, I signed the contract, I will never see you again. It then becomes an ongoing relationship and your firm farming for more business with them. But you have a, an ongoing thing with that counterpart. And I think that just shows why that relationship is so important in the first place. If you take a bunch of tactics that are going to get them to close the deal and then kind of screw off and never talk to them again and kind of sell them smoke and mirrors, you're like, okay, yeah, you closed that first deal, your reputation is going to go around that everyone's gonna hear it. You're never gonna close another deal. And when you go back to that client for the upsell, they're not gonna take your call. So I think just the idea of really understanding the value of the relationship because yes, there's a bunch of specific tactics. You know, we talk about priming, we talk about mimicry, a whole bunch of little things you can do that will, you know, get you to a. To be seen as trustworthy or more likable. And those are important and they're effective. But at the end of the day like having a solid relationship with someone is, it's just a basic human thing. Listen to what they're saying, understand their needs, show that you show some compassion and empathy for what they care about. And there's no, you know, there's no shortcut or trick to do that effectively in the long term. You just have to do that repeatedly all the time. Like you just have to be that kind of a person. And I think sales, especially B2B sale, like it gets a bad rap. I think you tell someone, oh, I'm thinking of going into sales for my career. They're like their, their immediate picture in their head is a used car salesman. Almost every single person. It's, it just, it, it feels like a sleazy thing. But then when you get into it and you see what it actually involves, you're like, actually no, this is a long term relationship. It's about providing two way value. It's about understanding each other's needs. It's not about like I'm gonna get you like in the movie and then I'm gonna sucker you into buying this and I'm gonna get a giant bonus and you'll never see me again. Like that's not how it actually works.
- [33:53]
A
No. Maybe a few bad actors out there, but you know, 99.9 repeating of the people are very good.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah. And those bad actors have short careers. They get filtered out pretty fast because that, that reputation gets around.
- [34:07]
A
Right? Yeah. I know you mentioned a little bit about the, you know, priming, mimicry. If you do have examples of some good like questions or things you might like, is there a way that you prime before going into a pitch meeting or things along those lines to help it, to like smooth the way or you know, we've talked about framing. What are some, like if we have some actual language that you might use or ways you've seen where it's like I've heard people Say this, don't do that, and here's why, right? Let's get some, some real, some nitty gritty examples.
- [34:43]
B
Some, some brass tacks here.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:45]
B
I mean, one that I think about, you asked about priming is, is the, like the, the first one or two sentences you say to kick off a meeting and, and it's, you know, everyone thinks, oh yeah, of course, you know, first impressions are important. And yes, that's true, but that's not enough. Like it's. You've got to think about what is the outcome, what is the mindset you want them to be in that will make them more receptive to what you're trying to convince them of. And so when we do, you know, if we have a keynote about, or a training session about the psychology of persuasion, we'll often start by saying something along the lines of, if you're the kind of person who finds human behavior and decision making interesting, I think you're going to really find this, this a fun session. And, and that's specific enough to what we do, but also who's gonna be like, no human behavior, that's boring, that's irrelevant. You know, you're probably not in a room with people who think that, so you get a pretty high hit rate and then that just kind of primes them to be more open to the type of stuff you're about to, to share. So I think really thinking about what is the mindset that's going to make them more receptive in the way that you want. And then kicking off the meeting aligned to that.
- [35:51]
A
How does that line up with. I was thinking about all the, like, banter and like chat before the meeting actually starts. Can either be good or bad. Right. And so it's like, do you do pleasant of like, you know, we had the, you know, how was. We're recording shortly after the first of the year. The episode will come out later. Right. But it was like, how was your holiday? Happy New Year, like those sorts of things. How's the weather out there in Toronto or whatever. Right. Is like the thing that people tend to do all the time and like, is that working for you? Or if you get people like complaining about how bad the weather is or like, man, I wish I was still on vacation. Is that actually priming you to be in a negative sort of space? And there are some better suggestions for someone who is selling, you know, cloud services or airplanes or whatever it is that people are doing in the B2B space? Probably more likely, yeah. Some version of digital sales. But what do you think about that?
- [36:50]
C
I have some thoughts about small talk.
- [36:52]
A
Yeah.
- [36:53]
C
And then I'll add to the priming piece Ben is talking about. I don't mind. First of all, I think we should all get used to small talks. We're not as a human species, we're never going to be able to get away from having small talks. It's just our nature to soft launch into a relationship. And I think it's a good opportunity to just be in the same place on common grounds because you're not. Hey, do you like the weather? Oh, weather's so nice. Yes, you love the weather too. Awesome. Yeah. Now we like the same thing. So what do you think about Gaza? Just like you're having a common ground that escalated fast. But you know what I mean, you want idea on the same thing first before you have the tougher conversation. I mean, I don't mind this. I think that's just a good way for you to get to know your audience a little bit more. Because it's through those small talks you learn about like oh, so and so is going on pet leave, so and so is pregnant or so and so is having a family dinner. You get to have just a little tiny connections. I don't think that it's harmful unless something terrible happens in that small town, which really happens. But in terms of priming, I think is what happens after that. Small talk is what becomes very, very critical. Earlier Ben talked about you want to know what kind of conversation you want to create, right. And we also talk about this a lot in our talks. Is that what kind of emotion you're trying to drive? Are you trying to drive a sense of urgency? Are you going to try to drive a sense of collaboration? Are you going to try, you're going to try to drive a fear of missing out. There's many things you could drive the same message. You just have to frame it differently, right? Because the company, because you can go in to say that, hey, you know, you know the company has a million dollar upside. You can say that this is so exciting, you have that upside. But you can also say that holy crap, what have you done about this? Are you not going to execute any anytime soon? Right. You're still addressing the million dollar upside, but you can really frame it differently depending on what the situation, what the context and also how well you know your customer. So I think all that stems from small talk and onwards one I would
- [38:57]
B
add of, I mean, yes, small talk often, oh, how was the weather? We talked about the blue jays and the Mariners. And I think if you can get in like one level deeper and understand a little bit about them, and then you. Then you have like some, some stuff you can then weave into your presentation. And if all of a sudden you have like the regular, you know, you're talking through slide of this feature, and I remember you had said, you know, you were really struggling with whatever, this would be the perfect thing for that. And you can like it. It gives a more direct connection to what you're selling, to what they're feeling, and it makes them feel listened to. And I think that idea of showing that you are listening to them makes them feel good. Like, it's very validating to you when someone reiterates what you said. And that's, you know, a common thing that lots of training say. You know, when somebody says something before you reply, paraphrase it back to them. And that's really effective. But also if you can do that throughout your presentation because you've teased those out of them, it's going to be really effective.
- [39:52]
A
Yeah, and that also helps with. I was thinking about the unity principle, right, From Cialdini and being able to. You can't really find those things if you don't actually have conversations with people and listen to them and look for those liking opportunities. Right. And so maybe you say, hey, did you. Are you watching the World Series? And they say, no, I don't really care about baseball, but, like, I'm more of a soccer fan or, you know, football, how we want that to be for whoever's listening from wherever. But also, you know, or they say, oh, I'm more into college sports. I went to Texas A and M and like, that's all I really care about. And then, you know, okay, like, I'm going to watch and maybe bring up something about college football because they're going to care more about that. And when someone wins, or you can commiserate a loss or whatever it was, or anticipation for the game, you can find those things to be able to connect on. And then that also gives you maybe a reason to follow up. So I was going to ask about your thoughts on one. You know, ghosting is real and, and in many cases in the land of B2B, it's because people have, you know, back to back, quadruple booked meetings during the day. There's a lot going on for people, constant shift in priorities. You just don't have time to get to everything. So they're not intentionally ghosting, even if it feels like that person hates me. Uh, so do you have some rules about like how many times you should follow up, how often to follow up and how to avoid being ghosted in this, you know, years long relationships you have with people.
- [41:24]
B
Yeah, I think, I think the first thing I would say is like you want to avoid having a follow up in the first place and an effective meeting. You have already done the follow ups at the end of the meeting. So it's, you know, we've only got five minutes left. We talked about a few action items. Can we set up our next call before we leave the room? How does next Tuesday at 4 o' clock work? And you get that in then, then you're not going to have to chase them. So like step, step one, if you can avoid it, have that as part of your meeting. That's going to be super effective in terms of like, you know, you can't do that every single time. It's not going to work every, every, in every scenario. Darren, do you want to talk about the power? No, because this is one of my favorites that you have.
- [42:04]
C
Yeah, I mean this is coined by Chris Voss, the famed FBI negotiator. And the whole point of power, no, I'm sure a lot of people have already heard this by now is that it's always easier to frame a question in a no oriented way, meaning it's easier for them to say no to. You should reframe your question whether the desired outcome is no. So instead of saying that do you want to have coffee? You would say, is it a bad time to have coffee? So then they say no, it's not a bad time. So the whole point is that you are putting the power of no onto the other person where they have the chance to disagree with you and in their disagreement with you, they are actually in turn agreeing with you. And it just takes a pressure off of it because if I say hey, hey, you know, do you want a coffee? I'm like, oh yeah, sure have it. It feels like I'm, I'm being forced to agree to it. But if I say that hey, is this a bad time? It feels like I'm in control. I'm like, no, it's not a bad time, let's do it. So this is where the power of no Chris Voss is talking about. And this works equally well in emails. Ben and I will have so many screenshots where people ghosted us and we'll just reply, just be like, hey, have you given up on this project or have you decided not to move forward with this? Any language like that, you really sort of sends everyone into like, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm not giving up. We're still going to move forward. And they were very often reply. It's quite useful how that happens. It's pretty crazy actually.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah, it's so simple and so effective. I have screenshots of threads where it's like two or three months, every couple weeks I send them the email to follow up, no answer. And then I change it. Like, are you, are you no longer interested in pursuing? And it's a no oriented question. Like eight minutes later they get back to me, I think, and, and it's not 100%. Nothing is. But man, does it, does this one help.
- [43:57]
A
Right? So, okay, so we've got the loss aversion there, right? There's the, you know, something with the identity or like, no, don't give up on me of what I want to be. I'm guessing there are a lot of people listening. If they have not used that tactic before, they're feeling like I am going to come off like such a jerk. They are going to hate that. Like people are going to totally bail. Advice or thoughts on, I guess like getting over that.
- [44:22]
B
But try it, see how well it works. And you'll be like, oh, actually that's not an issue. This is one. I like that we cover this a lot in training where like we do a training and say, here's a framework. And then they're like, oh, that just. It feels so forced, it feels so contrived. And then you always ask the recipient in the training, like, did it feel forced or no, it felt so natural.
- [44:42]
A
Right.
- [44:43]
B
And so a lot of things, like before you've done it, you're like, oh, that sounds so awkward because you know, like why you're doing it or the background to it. The other side isn't thinking that way. They're just thinking you're asking a question. They're not like, oh, this is their fourth follow up and they've swapped to a no oriented question. Like nobody reads an email saying that, right? It's. It can feel word, but it's not.
- [45:03]
A
Oh my gosh, can we say though, you gotta not. I get so many random pit. I get a bunch of pitches for podcast guests and things like that. Right? And it's like, well, I guess this will be the last time I email you because obviously you're busy and like, yeah, bye.
- [45:17]
C
Oh my God, people.
- [45:20]
A
It is so ridiculously how over the top people are when I've never shown any interest in talking to you. So we don't want to be aggressive like that before we have some sort of not saying it was aggressive. We don't want to be aggressive like that ever. You don't want to necessarily be in the, like, well, are you still interested when they were never interested and they haven't talked to you? Right. It's.
- [45:43]
C
Yeah.
- [45:43]
B
Are you no longer interested? Sorry, I'm not interested. Okay, cool.
- [45:47]
A
Right. And actually getting to know is a good thing sometimes, right? Because we can just be done. I know when I used to be on the, like in an organization running a marketing department, I would get pitches for stuff all the time also. And I do this now, too. I'll tell people, like, if you can please just, like, send me the pricing, tell me the thing. I know you've got a way you like to pitch, but I promise you I will let you know if it's a no. Like, I will tell you if it's a no. And people would say, oh, my gosh, thank you so much. Because getting ghosted is the worst. It's so terrible. I'd rather just know instead of feeling like I'm bugging you all the time. So.
- [46:20]
C
Yeah.
- [46:20]
B
And spending the effort to keep chasing them.
- [46:23]
C
Right.
- [46:23]
A
Not worth it.
- [46:24]
B
A quick no. The only thing. The only thing better than that is yes. But if you're going to get a no, the faster the better.
- [46:29]
A
I know. If it's not a fit, just tell
- [46:31]
B
me if you're going to fail. You want to fail fast?
- [46:34]
A
Yes. Awesome. Well, as we go to close out our conversation, if people were only going to pick one behavioral principle to embrace as they consider their B2B sales, what do you think would be the most important thing you would tell them to look into first?
- [46:51]
B
Yeah, we get that question a lot. And I never say it's this tactic or it's this specific experiment that shows this. It's. It's changing your mindset to think of your customers as emotional decision makers, not rational decision makers. And then everything that will flow from that because that will change the way you present, the way you engage, the way you ask questions to them. And if you. If you take that piece as your foundation and you're only going to take one, it's definitely that perfect.
- [47:20]
A
Darren, what would you add? You guys get a sort of like a cheating bonus here that you get to have each of you have a perspective. So we get, like, two tips.
- [47:26]
B
Oh, but I already took the best one. So, Darren, you're just going to do what he said again, right?
- [47:30]
C
I don't, but I think my My thing is, if there's one takeaway is just please don't debate your way into a win. You know, a debate is the exact opposite of a good negotiation. Right? I. We talk about this a lot like, like, like a debate. It's, it's kind of like a, like a triangle, like this one. And a negotiation is like this. A debate is like, we're starting at this one point. I want to keep adding more and more logic and then just try to win you over until you have nothing to say. And look at this giant foundation of logic I have created. And now you can't say no. And the other side just feel that we lost and we don't want to do business with you. This sucks. Right? And negotiation should be opposite. Negotiation should feel like, wow, there's so many things we have to address. Are we ever going to win this case? Are we ever going to come together? But I said, well, no, let's keep on finding common ground. And then there's eventually something that we both care about. And then at the end it feels like a collaboration as opposed to like, I won. So always lose the battle and win the war.
- [48:35]
A
Yeah, for sure. Right there. There are so many win wins out there in the world and helping. Yeah. Winning that conversation or that point and making someone feel dumb is probably not a great way to sell something that's
- [48:52]
B
a very short term victory. It'.
- [48:55]
A
Yeah. If it's even a victory at all. Right. It depends on what game you're playing, I suppose. But if you're actually trying to close the sale, probably not. Great. Perfect. Well, for everyone who is now so interested in continuing to learn from you, to connect and follow you, all of that, you know, we'll have links in the show notes, but what are their best routes to do?
- [49:16]
B
So yes, there are a few things. Thanks for the chance to plug ourselves. Love to connect with Anyone directly on LinkedIn. You can search for us, Ben Wise, Darren Chu. We tend to be the first that come up with those names. We're on socials, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn page, all@captivate2026 and then our newsletter is captivate newsletter.substack.com would love if you were to check it and subscribe.
- [49:44]
A
Perfect. And like I said, we'll have links in there to make it easy. So thank you both again, Ben, Darren, it was great chatting about brainy goodness with you here today and B2B sales.
- [49:56]
B
You bet.
- [49:56]
C
Thank you so much.
- [49:58]
A
Thank you again to Ben Wise and Darren Chu for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, one of the things that stands out most in discussions like this is how often B2B sales gets framed as if the organization itself, that entity, is the buyer. But organizations don't make decisions. People do. And when you're working on a complex sale, what you're really navigating is a network of people who each have their own priorities, pressures, and definitions of what success looks like. That's part of why the conversation around internal champions is so important. Like it or not, credibility travels differently inside an organization than it does from the outside. The message you share as the seller is always going to be filtered through a certain lens. But when someone inside the company helps shape the solution and then advocates for it, the idea lands in a completely different way. That outcome someone needs to be able to claim internally. It's a story they need to tell about the decision that can influence how a deal evolves, what questions get asked, and what ultimately feels like a win and something they're ready to fight for for. And the good news is, when you're thoughtful about it, you can help shape that story in a way that gets remembered and showcases your value without getting lost in the game of telephone if you've read the Truth about Pricing, you know this is something I talk about quite a bit. Pricing decisions aren't about the numbers. They are wrapped up in perception, identity, incentives, and the stories people need to be able to tell about the choices they make. And if this conversation has you thinking about how these ideas apply in your own organization, that is exactly the type of work I do with corporate teams. I regularly give talks, trainings and workshops on applying decision science and storytelling to messaging, pricing, sales strategy, and change initiatives. And I'd love to help your team think through how these concepts show up in your own work. If you're interested in learning more, please visit the brainybusiness.com contact or you can email me melina the brainy business.com to start a conversation. I'd love to hear from you no matter what. Please. If you're on the fence, reach out. I'm always open to chatting and seeing if we're a fit. And if we're not, I'm happy to still chat and hear from you, especially as a listener of the show. I just love it. So anyway, as we close out the episode, I invite you to consider this what story does your customer need to be able to tell internally for choosing you to feel like the right decision when you have an idea about it? If you want to share, please do come tell me on social media. Or if you want to share about what stood out for you in the episode, come share that too. You're going to find us the show as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and I am Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 570. And thank you again to Ben and Darren for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and and remember to be thoughtful.
- [53:32]
B
Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.