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The Breakfast Club
Best Of Full Interview: Jay Shetty Talks Healing, Purpose, Forgiveness, Grace + More
00:45:24
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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
DJ Envy
Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.
- [00:35]
Charlamagne tha God
Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlemagne, the guy we are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. My guy, he's an author, New York Times best selling author. He's a entrepreneur, he is a podcast host, and now he is a model as well. Ladies and gentlemen, Jay Shetty.
- [00:53]
Jay Shetty
A model.
- [00:53]
Charlamagne tha God
A model.
- [00:54]
DJ Envy
By the way, Jay Shetty's more than a podcast host. He has one of the top 10 best, biggest podcast in the world.
- [01:00]
Charlamagne tha God
That's right.
- [01:00]
DJ Envy
Okay. Like, I think that's very important to note because everybody got a podcast. Okay. Jay said he has one of the top 10 biggest podcasts in the world. What is it? Number five, I think.
- [01:08]
Jay Shetty
I think so. That's on Spotify. I think that's what it came out as. But no. Thank you for having me, guys. I love being here with you guys. I'm so grateful to be back with you. Congrats on the new studio. I know it's not new for your. For your viewers, but it's new for me being in here with you. But thank you. Thank you, guys.
- [01:20]
DJ Envy
You're one of the people I always use as a model, man, when people tell me, like, you know, how do I get started in podcasting or broadcasting? I always say you gotta be your true, authentic self and you gotta provide something that you know may be missing. And you came with healing, you know, conversations about mental health, love, and you filled a very big void in the marketplace, a void that I didn't even think people knew was missing.
- [01:45]
Jay Shetty
Wow, that means a lot coming from you. I think whenever you're starting anything right, it's about finding the space in the market and then figuring out what you just said, that authentic part that you can match with that space. And I think for me, I love all the podcasts that exist in the world and they serve so many different purposes. There's so many that I listen to, but for me, I was. I Remember, I was at this event, and the event was called Building Meaningful Lives, and Tom Brady was speaking at the event, and then they were asking questions, and I don't know Tom Brady. And, you know, we. We. We know we don't know each other. We've never connected. But I saw a lot of questions being asked to him, and all the questions were about the rings and the games and the sports. And I could tell that he was trying to talk about meaningful things because the conference was building meaningful lives. And again, I don't know him, so I've never checked this with him. But from my perspective, I could. I felt. My intuition suggested that he wanted to go in a direction that he couldn't go in because everyone just wanted him to talk about sports. And I was like, okay, I want to build the platform where someone like him could go in the direction they want to go in. That's like when you came on the show and you need to come back. We need to have you back on. I love you. You know, when you came, it was like, we could go in the direction that you want to talk about that. Some people don't have the platform to do that for, you know, so that's where it came from.
- [03:00]
DJ Envy
You know, we had Kevin Gates up here. He's a rapper, and he. He has a song called. I think it's called I can heal you, you know, and he's talking about, you know, the fact that he feels like he can heal women.
- [03:12]
Nissan Advertiser
Right.
- [03:13]
DJ Envy
But just in general, do you think you can heal people?
- [03:16]
Jay Shetty
I can't heal people. I'm not that powerful. I don't. I don't think I have the power or the capacity to heal people. But I believe the universe does. I believe energy does. I believe frequency does. And I think that all we're trying to do is introduce people to all of these ideas, concepts, practices, habits, mindsets that they can then implement. I think people taking on that power is too much pressure. I think taking on that pressure of, I'm going to heal you, I'm going to heal people. Wow. I think I would crumble if I felt that way. I would. I would not last two seconds. And so I have never felt that. And I've always felt that I've been a vessel for my teachers and mentors and guides. I feel that I've been so invested in. A lot of people will say to me, like, jay, you're so young. How did you learn this? And I'll say, I just got lucky. I had great mentors, great teachers, great guides. And I'm just trying to share what I've learned through me. And, yeah, I don't want. I don't want the pressure of trying to be a savior, messiah, or a leader.
- [04:15]
Charlamagne tha God
You can heal people through your experience, though, because people, you know, I think a lot of times they feel like they're alone. And if you explain your story and tell them how you got through your tough times or whatever that you've been through, it can, like you said, give somebody a roadmap of what they can do.
- [04:28]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely.
- [04:29]
Charlamagne tha God
You know, for every situation that you try. Might not work for somebody, you know, but it'll give them a guide to maybe something that can put them on their healing journey.
- [04:37]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. But I feel like that is still so much on that person, and I feel like that's what we've seen, whether it's mental health, whether it's growth, whether it's personal development. So much of the accountability and responsibility is on the receiver of knowledge. My teachers would always give this beautiful example. They'd say, because sometimes, right, I'd go to listen to a talk or you go listen to a podcast, and the person who's teaching you is maybe not the best orator. They're not the best communicator. They're not the person who's coming at it with all the, you know, gems and everything else. And my teachers would say to me, if you're sitting in a class like that, that you may think the speaker's at a zero, but that means you need to rise to a 10 to extract greatness from them. Whereas if your speaker's at a 10, you get to coast at a zero. And you may extract nothing from them because they just entertained your mind. And so I think as a listener, as a practitioner, we've got to raise our game to extract greatness from who we're listening to and implement in our lives, if that makes sense.
- [05:36]
DJ Envy
Does everybody. No, I feel like everybody deserves healing, but does everybody deserve healing?
- [05:47]
Jay Shetty
I would say that let's go around down this thought experiment to answer that question. So I've been thinking a lot about this. If we could simplify the purpose of life to be. To love and be loved. If we could agree that we think that loving others and being loved by others feels like a meaningful purpose in our lives. Right. What's really interesting about that is that because of how we've been loved growing up, we chase to do things in order to be loved. So we start thinking, well, in order for Me to be loved. I need to build a big business. I need to look a certain way. I need to have a certain amount of followers. I need to build a podcast, whatever it may be. So we start doing lots of stuff in order to be loved, because we think to be. To love and be loved, we need to do big things. Then what ends up happening is we end up in a space where we realize that doesn't lead to love. I'm not loved more because I have more followers. I'm not loved more because I have more money. I'm not loved more because I have more. Which then begs the question, going to your earlier question, we need to heal that idea. So I think everyone deserves healing because everyone's been misled, whether it's by the system, whether it's by society, whether it's about conditioning. So if you look at the journey as to why everyone deserves healing, it's because everyone started from a purer place, or everyone started from a more naive place, but got led down a certain path that then requires them to have healing. So I think everyone deserves healing. What do you think, Charlemagne? Thinking about it deeply, I do.
- [07:23]
DJ Envy
I just hear people say that, you know, and I think what. What I. What I would tell folks is, you know, that's. Like you said, that's really not up to you to decide. You know, if a person, regardless of what they've been through, if they decide to go on their healing journey, that's between them and their creator, and that's between them and their trauma. Who am I to say that person doesn't deserve healing?
- [07:46]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
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DJ Envy
You know?
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Jay Shetty
Yeah.
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DJ Envy
I guess the other question, too, would be, does everybody deserve forgiveness and grace?
- [07:52]
Jay Shetty
I mean, here's how I like to look at it. Let's pretend that we lived in a world. Actually, we don't need to pretend. That is the world. Let's live in a world where there is no forgiveness and grace.
- [08:03]
DJ Envy
Lord have mercy.
- [08:04]
Jay Shetty
Right, Exactly. Let's see, what would that look like? Like, let's do a thought experiment. You have a planet. There's no forgiveness, there's no grace. I would struggle to live in that world because I know I need forgiveness and grace, not only from myself, but from the people around me. If my wife wasn't forgiving and giving me grace, that would be a really tough relationship. If my mom didn't forgive me and give me grace, that would be a tough relationship. If my boss, if, you know, whatever else in my life, I think we'd actually all be living with more anxiety, more stress, and we'd internalize that lack of forgiveness and project it back onto ourselves. And that would perpetuate a cycle, by the way. That's kind of where we're at right now. And I think a lot of our lack of capacity for forgiveness and grace for others actually comes because we don't give ourselves the benefit of the doubt. Right. Like, you know, amazing things can happen whereby we literally will. You know, I think I'm sure you've heard this too, where it's like, I loved you until you did this. I believed in you until you did this. And it's almost like we don't give ourself a second chance. And because we don't give ourselves a second chance, we don't give others a second chance. And I believe that everyone deserves forgiveness and grace if they are willing to choose the path of reformation.
- [09:23]
DJ Envy
That's right.
- [09:23]
Jay Shetty
If they're willing to go on the path and do the work of saying, I have had some challenges, I made some mistakes, I'm willing to grow. That's. But sometimes it's a chicken and egg situation because sometimes for someone to have that reaction, they need to feel that there is an opportunity for forgiveness and grace. So often people are so scared that people won't forgive them that they don't want to admit it. Right. Let's take a very basic example. Like, you know, someone's. Let's. Let's take something that I think, you know, someone's cheated on their partner. Not. Not an ideal situation, not a great thing. Do we just let that person get away with it? Of course not. But partly that person may be scared of sharing it because they're scared there won't be forgiveness and grace.
- [10:08]
DJ Envy
That's right.
- [10:09]
Jay Shetty
Now are scared to lose, or scared to lose now, they've made a mistake and they should be held accountable regardless, because if they were in a committed relationship. But it's this chicken and egg situation of like, what comes first. And I don't know the answer to that because it requires so much from the person who's been hurt. And it's sad because you've already been hurt and now more is required of you. And I think a lot of people feel that way, that they're the one who've been hurt, but they've got to be the bigger person.
- [10:35]
Charlamagne tha God
I think a lot of times with forgiveness, sometimes it's why the person asks for forgiveness or why the person is sorry. Right. So like you said, in a cheating situation, right. It's quick and easy for a person to say, okay, I'M sorry because they got caught. You know, same thing with somebody when they see something wild online, right? The first reason they want to apologize, really, is they want things to get back to normal. But are they really sorry? Did they really understand what they did and hurt somebody? And I think that's the problem when it comes to forgiving somebody. Right. It's easy to say, I forgive you. You slap me in my face, and I say, okay, I forgive you, but no, I don't. Not until we have the conversation of why you slapped me in the face, why you said what you said, how did you affect me? And then we can get to that path. But I think a lot of times it's easy for people to say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do it. I went to rehab. It's over. Right? And the world is supposed to open back up. But if you can't explain to me why you did what you did and assure me why it can't happen again, I can never forgive you. And people will be like, well, forgive you means this, that, and the other. No, I don't think about you. But that's, that's my reasoning of feeling that way.
- [11:38]
Jay Shetty
I. That's. Yeah, that's the best. I fully agree with everything you just said. That's, that's, that's what's missing is you. You just hit. You said something so subtle and so passive. I want to highlight for everyone because I'm like, that is it. It's like we want to say sorry often because we want things to go back to normal.
- [11:53]
Charlamagne tha God
Correct.
- [11:53]
Jay Shetty
And that, that is the mistake. Like, that isn't worthy of forgiveness, and we need to go deeper than that.
- [11:59]
DJ Envy
You just sat down with First Lady Michelle Obama. Conversation was everywhere. Right. And she expressed how terrified she was about this election year. What was it like hearing that from her? And how do you process that? Does that give you anxiety when you hear that?
- [12:17]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, it's an interesting thought process because I can't vote in this country. I moved here eight years ago. I have a green card, but I don't, you know, I don't have voting rights. And I moved here the year Trump became president in 2016. And so I've had an interesting education in the United States, and I haven't, you know, I didn't grow up learning American history or American politics. So I'm also very uneducated in this, in that space specifically. I think for me, I look at most things as things I can and can't control. And when I think about Things that make me anxious on a global scale. I often ask myself, what is the root of that anxiety in my community? So if I'm seeing whether it's ignorance, whether it's a lack of understanding, whether it's a lack of curiosity, openness, compassion on a global scale, I'm asking myself, where does that exist within me and my friends and my society? And how do I start impacting that? Because that I can control. And so I've been practicing that for a long time because I feel that there's a lot of things that give me anxiety. Like there's a lot of things that can stress me out. There's something new in the news every day that can do that.
- [13:29]
DJ Envy
Right.
- [13:30]
Jay Shetty
But for me, what's really interesting is saying, okay, where is like I read this beautiful quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald a few years back and it's beautiful. And he said that I don't have my phone other than I'd read it, right.
- [13:42]
DJ Envy
But what is it?
- [13:43]
Jay Shetty
I Google type in, type in the, type in two opposites and F. Scott Fitzgerald.
- [13:53]
DJ Envy
Two opposing ideas.
- [13:54]
Jay Shetty
Correct. But look for the full quote because they only quote half of it sometimes and it's so. And read a longer version of that quote.
- [14:00]
DJ Envy
I see the test of a first rate intelligence to hold two opposing sides in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise.
- [14:14]
Jay Shetty
That I love that right? Like to be able to hold two. This is, I think the biggest challenge we're facing in the human mind is that we're not able in our micro world and in a macro world to be able to hold two opposing ideas at the same time, still retain the ability to function. So as F. Scott Fitzgerald said, I should be able to see that everything seems hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise. That to me is where I like to live and where I like to function is that how can I accept that things are beyond my control, I'm not powerful enough yet control what I can try to do. And so I kind of look at ignorance in my own community, in my own friends group, in our WhatsApp chats, in our text threads. Like where is that ignorance? Where is that? You know, where, where are the missing links? And how can I start to impact and influence my friends to be more open minded, to be more curious, to be better learners and myself by the way too to question where I'm quick to shut people down. Like I've noticed that so much in me recently, like, if I'm judging someone, I've really been asking myself, can I look for that quality in me? Because I really believe that the reason I'm judging it and I'm so triggered by it, is because I know it's inside myself, and my judgment is just a reflection of me not introspecting enough. So to me, I try and bring down global events into the personal and intimate because otherwise it's so chaotic and so hard to deal with.
- [15:41]
Charlamagne tha God
I believe some people's judgment is a reflection of. Of. Of the masses. Right. And that's my biggest thing I have with social media. And sometimes when people talk about their healing journey or some of the things that they do, I think they look for out without actually doing the necessary work. Right. So somebody might see Charlamagne and he's evolved, and he'll explain the ways that he evolved, and somebody might jump on it because they've seen it work for Charlemagne, but it won't work for them because it's not in their heart. You know what I mean? I think a lot of times with social media and what you said about the masses, I think people follow a fake way of doing it to pray for healing instead of trying to find their own journey. And I think that's. That's the difficult part. And I try to tell people, and I think, you know, with some of the things that you're doing, you're trying to find your own healing journey.
- [16:24]
Jay Shetty
Yes.
- [16:25]
Charlamagne tha God
You know, you give an example with yours. Charlamagne gives an example of his, I give an example of mine. But a lot of times people will try to follow that, and it doesn't open up their own mind to some of their other thoughts.
- [16:34]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, that's. That's so powerful. And I think the beautiful thing about anyone who has gone on a healing journey realizes how unique yet similar it is. Like, if we sat down and we talked about healing journeys, all three of us, we'd find so many similarities, yet so many differences. And that's. That's the beauty of it, that when you go down that path and, yeah, I would encourage everyone to not try and imitate. It's almost like, you know, a few years ago, people's morning routines became really popular, and all of a sudden everyone's trying to do the Einstein morning routine or whatever it may be. And it's like, you're not gonna become that person by doing their morning routine. That's a part of who they are. But what you're saying is that there's an essence there's a heart there that you're totally missing out on. So. Yeah, I fully agree. You can't imitate someone's morning routine and suddenly become them.
- [17:21]
DJ Envy
I like what you said too. Can you. Can you really find truth in this world of extremes? Because it feels like everybody gotta pick a side.
- [17:29]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [17:29]
DJ Envy
And like, we talked about it before you came in. Like, I can sit down and have a conversation with somebody and. And people will look at that as an endorsement. But no, we're just having a conversation because there's got to be some nuance in all of this, right, that, like, I got a spiritual, you know, leader. One of my spiritual teachers, she always says, she says there's no such thing as right and wrong in humans. Do you.
- [17:49]
Jay Shetty
Do you believe that there's no such thing as right and wrong? I mean, you could see that from the. I guess it depends what level of. I guess it depends on what level of humanity you're talking about. Right, like legal, there's right and wrong. I guess morally, there's right and wrong. And then I guess thought wise or perception wise, then you get into muddier territory because then what is right and wrong? Because everyone's looking at everything. If you just think about the multiple lenses that we've had, it's like if you imagine that every life experience you've had is a crack in the mirror, right? The parents you had, the town you grew up in, the friends you had growing up, the school you went to, your first job, your first love, your first heartbreak. Imagine all of those are cracks in a mirror. Now, every time you're looking in that mirror, imagine how many different reflections and destroyed reflections you're seeing. We're basically dealing with that, with 8 billion people. So the amount of distortion in perception, reflection, perspective is so variegated that how can any one of us know what the truth is or what right and wrong is? Because it's. There's the options. Unlimited. Like, you would need an algorithm. And even an algorithm couldn't compute the depths of the trauma, the impact, the experience. Like it would require. It would require a God brain in order to formulate and contextualize all of those experiences. So I do think there was this. I don't know where it's from, but I remember seeing it in Cobra Kai, of all places. But there was this great line that said, there's always three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.
- [19:30]
Charlamagne tha God
That's right.
- [19:31]
Jay Shetty
But I think the challenge is that the truth part is not. We're not even. It's objective it's objective. But I don't even think what you just said rightly is in order then if we're saying there's three sides to every story, but we're only living on one side, the only way to get to the middle ground, and by the way, the middle ground has been a philosophical standpoint. The Buddha talked about the middle path. We talk about living a balanced life, we talk about finding the core, the heart, the center. If you look at all philosophical, spiritual, well being traditions, it's always about the middle, the heart, the center, the core. Yet the only way to get to the middle is by looking at both extremes. You're not going to get to the middle by being on any of one side of any thought. And so I think what you just said, Charlamagne, and what you do here so beautifully is I love, and I try and do this too, to have conversations that people don't expect me to have with people, that people may be confused as to why I'm sitting down with them in order to understand the cracks of the mirror. That's what I'm fascinated by. I'm fascinated by the cracks on the mirror. Because how they got to how they think is even more important to me than how they think. Because if we understand how someone got to how they think, we can help save the future. Because we can make sure that their experiences are slightly more variegated, diverse, supported in order to have healthier ideas in the future.
- [20:55]
DJ Envy
Do you, do you feel like most people are just performing?
- [20:58]
Jay Shetty
What do you mean by that?
- [20:59]
DJ Envy
Because when, sometimes when you sit down with these people, you realize like, oh, this is, this is just an act. Like, you know, I mean, yeah, you're just doing this because of what can, what, what can come, come from it. So it's like when I'm having a conversation with somebody, I try to remove all of that.
- [21:14]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [21:14]
DJ Envy
And get to what you just said, like.
- [21:15]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [21:16]
DJ Envy
And you usually get to that by seeing how a person got to where they are. And then when you, that's when you realize like, oh, this isn't.
- [21:24]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, I think it's hard right now. Like there's this meme on social media that I love and it's all text and it says society says be yourself. And then society says, no, not like that. And it's brilliant. Right. And so what I've realized is society says, I want to know what you feel. And then he goes, but if you. Let me tell you again, society says, I want to know what you feel. But then if what you feel doesn't make me feel good, then I don't know what you want to feel. And so I think people have actually kind of regressed into performing because they're so scared of being judged for every word they say. And then there's the side of people performing because they think that they have to abide by certain rules or they have to, you know, sit with a particular thought process or whatever it may be. But I think in our attempt to be more authentic as a society, we've actually started blocking authenticity. Because if your authenticity doesn't make me feel good, then I'm rejecting it. And that doesn't actually make sense. Like, you know, it doesn't. You can't. If you say something that I don't like, I can say I don't like it, but I can't tell you that that's wrong.
- [22:38]
DJ Envy
Yeah, don't say I'm real until I say something that you don't agree with. Yeah, it can't be that way. I got to still, I should still be real, right? Like come.
- [22:45]
Charlamagne tha God
But is it all an interpretation? Right? Cause like you've been married eight years. Sometimes when you get into an argument or a disagreement with your wife, it might not be right or wrong, it might be how you interpret things.
- [22:58]
Jay Shetty
Right.
- [22:58]
Charlamagne tha God
So if your wife says something, you'd be like, you had an attitude and it makes you upset. But really she didn't have an attitude. So I think a lot of what we see in this world is interpretation.
- [23:07]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely, I try. And that's why I think the self interpretation point is so much more important. I think we get so lost in social media. We've mentioned it here and by the way, obviously I love social media. Without it I wouldn't even have had a career, I wouldn't be here today. So I'm very grateful to social media. But the point is that I think we get so lost in other people's marriages, other people's careers, other people's failures that we don't make the time to reflect on our own. So when I find myself being agitated with my wife or being irritated with my wife, I look back as to why did I behave that way. And 99% of the time it's because I have a certain fear, I have a certain insecurity. Sometimes my fear is actually a positive fear of, let's say my wife asks me a really important question. But I'm about to walk into this interview. My agitated non mindful response is going to be, I haven't got time for this right now. I'LL talk to you later. Right. Which is the worst thing to say. But I've been there. I'm just going to put my hand out. I've done that. Right. Like I've said, hey, I haven't got time for this right now.
- [24:06]
Charlamagne tha God
I would never say that, but you.
- [24:07]
DJ Envy
Got more balls than I have.
- [24:08]
Charlamagne tha God
I ain't got time for this.
- [24:09]
Jay Shetty
I've been honest and said, I've said that in the past. Right. I've said that before and I feel terrible for saying that now. When I look back at that and I've reflected on that and my wife's very forgiving and kind and so she tolerates me deeply and I appreciate her for that. But when I reflect on having made that mistake, the real reason is twofold. One is it's not that I haven't got time for it. I actually really care about her and I want to give her a really good answer. I just am scared that I won't be able to do that in 30 seconds. And so now I'm just trying to pass it off because I don't want to take on the fear. So there's actually a well intentioned thing there. It's not that I actually think I'm too busy and then sometimes I'm like, well, my life's more important. Like, I remember this time my wife would come up to me and say, I've had a really bad day. And I'd say, tell me about it. I've had a really bad week and I was using her pain.
- [24:57]
Charlamagne tha God
You're trumping her pain.
- [24:58]
Jay Shetty
Exactly. I was using her pain to validate my pain because I haven't spent time validating my pain in private because I haven't taken that time to acknowledge and recognize that I'm having a challenging week. I'm now using and taking her moment of connecting with her partner to make it about me. And so again, when I reflect on that, why am I doing that? It's because I haven't taken time for myself and I think that's where I want people to live more. Because we could actually heal so many of our daily irritations and agitations simply by going, got it. I'm scared, I'm being insecure and I'm not validating my own pain.
- [25:35]
DJ Envy
How many times do you, I mean, how often have you broken your own eight rules of love?
- [25:38]
Jay Shetty
Oh, every day. Every day. Every day. I don't think it's, you know, it goes back to that, how can I heal someone? I'm still healing myself. And it goes to the reality of. And I think we all know this at this table. Everything in life is a process, right? Like, even if you took something really tangible, like we say this person is rich. We talk about them as if they can never lose it, and I will always be theirs. That's actually not true. People could lose all their money. We talk about someone being famous. You could lose that. So in the same way, healing, progress, development, you can lose it. And I think we've got so lost in that destination addiction, the belief that you get to a point from which there is no return. And I think that destination addiction is really misleading in the wellness space because we feel like, oh, now I'm healed. And I think it comes from this idea of, if you think about it, right, Social media is full of before and after pictures. This is where I used to be. Look at where I am now, right? And it's always like saying, I used to be in a bad place. Now I'm in a great place.
- [26:43]
DJ Envy
No process, though.
- [26:44]
Jay Shetty
No process. And linear. When the real life life is this every day, it's just cyclical. And I think we've made our minds feel that journeys are linear. It's like A to B, like going from LA to New York or New York to L. A, it's linear. But we know that life is so much more cyclical. And so, yes, I have broken the eight rules of love every day, every week of my life.
- [27:05]
DJ Envy
One of the things you said, man, that I think is so important that I want people to really get from this, if they don't get nothing else from this conversation, is like, there's no manual for any of this. So you're not going to be the perfect husband. You're not going to be the perfect father. I spend so much time simply apologizing to my wife and apologizing to my kids because I don't ever want them to think that I'm trying to come off as some perfect human who never gets anything wrong, Right? And I think that is. That's very important to do. And just being present, like when your wife calls you, your child calls you, even if you in that moment, you weren't present. As soon as I'm done, whatever I'm doing, I'm so sorry that I had to do that, but I had to go do X, Y and Z in that moment.
- [27:48]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the thing about the point you just made, and I hope this is what someone takes away from this as well, is I think a lot of us in our minds, when we do introspect. We're quite heavy and harsh on ourselves. I think a lot of people are walking around with a internal, inner critical voice that is completely making them feel terrible. And so when anyone says something externally, it's worse. And I just want to remind people that you can't hate yourself into change. Like, you can't guilt yourself into growth. You can't blame yourself into. Into a breakthrough. When was the last time you changed who you were because someone hated you? Never. When was the last time you supported someone you hate deeply? So if you're hating, blaming, guilting yourself, it may get you started, but it won't get you there. And so anyone who's giving themselves a hard time, I'm not saying to give yourself an easy time, but that inner grace, that inner forgiveness is such an important part of you actually becoming better. So you're not doing it because you're trying to take it easy on yourself. You're doing it because it's gonna let you get through the hard times.
- [28:55]
Charlamagne tha God
The most important thing, I think, for a lot of people is back to what you said with forgiveness and grace. Right? A lot of things that we do is learn behavior. Right. Why do people pop their children? Usually because they got popped as a child. Why do people talk the way that they talk? Usually because their parents talk to them or their parents did the same thing, or they do that. But a lot of times when you're in the moment, you don't see that. Right. When my dad told me, don't go out, don't do this, don't do that, my first reaction was like, I hate him. My other friends can do it and I can't. But now as a parent, it's the same thing. Now I understand why he said what he said. But you always pray that you get it before that family member leaves this earth. You know what I mean? And I thank God every day that my dad is still here, that I didn't leave being mad at him. And, you know, I try to explain more to my kids because I never want them to feel that way. But I know they must feel the same way when they be like, I can't go to my friend's house for a sleepover. Y. And I know they might be mad cause their friends do it. But that grace and forgiveness. We have to understand that a lot of the stuff that we do is learned behavior. Even if it's not right. We have to realize that a lot of the things that we learned and were taught were fucked up.
- [29:59]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. There's there's that famous quote you just reminded me of that says by the time you realize that your parents are right, your kids are telling you that you're wrong, and. And it's that. That awkward position that we end up in, and. But you know what's really interesting about that? I was talking to someone about this at dinner last night, and there's this old story that I heard a while ago, and it's always resonated with me, even with my own childhood. Not in particular, but in essence. So the story goes that these two men were interviewed and one was an alcoholic, and the other one had never drunk alcohol, and they were brothers, and they interviewed them, and then they asked the one who drank alcohol and was an alcoholic. He said, why are you an alcoholic? He said, my dad was an alcoholic. And then they asked the other brother, why don't you drink? And he said, my dad was an alcoholic. And so I think a lot of us got an education in what not to do, but we ended up repeating it instead of breaking the cycle. And I feel like in my life I had to. I got a great education in a lot of my areas of life, in what not to do and who not to be. And I took all those little notes down, and I think that's what's improved my life. So I think if we're constantly waiting for the perfect example and the perfect space and the perfect surroundings and the perfect aunt and uncle and the perfect parent, it's like we may be waiting forever because no one's perfect. So we almost have to make a list of what not to do, but. What not to do, but also how to.
- [31:20]
DJ Envy
That's why. That's why podcasts, like, on purpose is so important. That's why podcasts like, you know Debbie Brown deeply well is so important, because we learn how to.
- [31:29]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [31:29]
DJ Envy
You know, break. Break a lot of these cycles.
- [31:31]
Jay Shetty
Absolutely.
- [31:31]
DJ Envy
Are you wearing Gap right now?
- [31:33]
Jay Shetty
No, not right now.
- [31:34]
DJ Envy
Okay. I'm just asking.
- [31:35]
Jay Shetty
No, cuz you saw that. You saw that.
- [31:36]
DJ Envy
I saw the Gap campaign. That's.
- [31:37]
Charlamagne tha God
I called you a model earlier.
- [31:38]
Nissan Advertiser
You did the Gap.
- [31:39]
Jay Shetty
That's why. That's. I'm wondering.
- [31:40]
DJ Envy
Yeah, yeah, but you thought he just thought she was handsome.
- [31:44]
Jay Shetty
I was like, all right, DJ Envy. There's, you know. All right, you know, I wasn't expecting that from you, but thank you, man. I appreciate it.
- [31:52]
DJ Envy
No, you and your wife did a holiday. Holiday Gap campaign.
- [31:55]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, we. We were just, you know, when we got asked to do that, it was like we couldn't believe it. We're like, what is this? You know, like we grew up watching the Gap campaigns, like the holiday campaigns especially. And any I've said to my wife, any time I get to do any work with her is my favorite thing because I get to hang with her all day. And so that shoot was fun. They made it fun. The creative team was fantastic. Like, it was a good time. We walked out of there having had, having had a great day. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun. And then it was, it was surreal because, you know. Yeah, definitely never been a model. So.
- [32:26]
DJ Envy
Do you ever question yourself when you get approached to do things like that? Because, you know, people think for whatever, for whatever reason what it is you do. Oh, you shouldn't have. Yeah, ad campaigns, like you're supposed to be a guru, you know. Do you ever question yourself about doing stuff like that?
- [32:41]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. I've, I've had, the challenge is I've had to sit with that question so much. And here's what I've come out with. One of the reasons I do it is because I don't want to be the guru. I don't want to be that I'm a normal guy who likes nice things, who is married, who's happily married, who is living in the normal world, who has businesses, like everything. It's like I just, I want to be that because I think that the, you know, the putting anyone up on a pedestal, that person will always let you down because it's hard for anyone to live up to that. And so I would rather take myself off of it and normalize it and be good with that. And at the same time, I think, I look at it and I go, in my opinion, I'm hoping that someone's going to see that and be reminded of wellness and be reminded of well being from the perspective of like, oh yeah, Jane, Rowdy, they do that thing. So I'm hoping that it's actually helping us get the message out there more. And maybe I'm wrong, but I also look at it as things I enjoy doing and things I love doing with my wife. And I live life in that way and a lot of the opportunities come my way. One of the things that I've really been working on, and this is probably the most thoughtful answer I can give to this, is I've realized that a lot of opportunities I give today, a lot of opportunities I get today, they feel like a high five to my sixteen year old self and my twelve year old self and even my five year old self. And then there's the more evolved me of today. And so I'm living these two lives and I think we all are living the life of what our inner child desired and then our evolved today self desires. And I've just found that there are certain opportunities that fulfill it for that inner child that I don't want to abandon. Because what I'm worried about is that if I abandon it, there'll be some more bitterness, some more resentment that will develop that will grow in the future. And so I want to make sure that I acknowledge the needs of that inner child that maybe weren't met at that age or that stage in my life. And so that's kind of what I refer to a lot when I'm trying to make these decisions.
- [34:43]
DJ Envy
I don't have a problem with it because, you know, we always say stop making stupid people famous. So why not? So why not make the small ones? If the small ones can get the light on them, why not? Because when it amplifies your profile, more people, you know, come in and pay attention. I wanted to ask you too. Do you get pushback from people who watch you sit down with a Michelle Obama or a Jada Pinkett Smith? Why didn't you challenge them on this? Why didn't you challenge them on that?
- [35:06]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, I don't get pushback for not challenging people because I think the questions I ask are challenging in a different way. But I think I'll get pushback because someone doesn't like that person. Yeah. But what I've found every single time is that when someone actually listens to the episode or watches it on YouTube, if you look at that comment section, it is spectacular. Like when someone's actually taking out time out of the day to listen for an hour or watch for an hour. And then you see the comment section, you'll see people having complete. I had people reaching out about both those episodes, the President Biden interview as well that we did earlier year, and the comments of people who actually listened to it. And by the way, a lot of people were like, hey, I don't agree with this person's politics. I'm actually on completely on the other side. But I just want you to know that listening to this interview was so enlightening from a human perspective. Thank you for putting it out there. And I respect that approach because I think that's why I do the interview. I don't do the interview for any other reason apart from us looking at the broken mirror and looking back and saying, okay, where can I resonate with the humanity of this individual or where can I relate to this person? So, yeah, I think that's, that's generally the pushback. But the comment section, I encourage you on those episodes to go look at the YouTube comment section. It's. It's phenomenal to read what people are getting. Yeah.
- [36:28]
DJ Envy
Because I think your conversation with Jada Pinkett Smith, the clips, is what set off the Jada Pinkett hate train. Not because of you.
- [36:36]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [36:36]
DJ Envy
You know what I mean? But if you, if you didn't watch the whole conversation in context and you just saw clips.
- [36:43]
Jay Shetty
Yeah.
- [36:43]
DJ Envy
She got attacked for.
- [36:45]
Jay Shetty
Yeah. And Jada's a dear friend for me, so it's. Yeah, it's, it's a tough one because I think any clip about anyone. I, I said, I had someone say this to me today. Yesterday they said to me, Jay. They'd met me for the first time and they were like, jay, you're so much nicer in person. I didn't like you off of your Instagram. And I was like, fair enough. Like, that's cool. But it's like, it's so hard for me to be all of myself in 30 seconds. And I'm trying my best. You're trying your best. You're trying your best, but it's hard for any of us.
- [37:12]
DJ Envy
Like, nothing like about you on Instagram. You're in the kitchen with your wife.
- [37:15]
Jay Shetty
No.
- [37:17]
DJ Envy
You got puppies licking your face.
- [37:20]
Jay Shetty
No. In the sense of. I think he was just like, you know, I feel like you feel a bit like whatever it was, like whatever his. I don't even know what it was. But I think all of us, if you judged any of us off a 30 second reel.
- [37:31]
DJ Envy
Oh, yeah.
- [37:31]
Jay Shetty
I'm sure all of us would agree it's not who we are, you know, so. And that's why I've. I do stuff with my wife, because I feel I'm most myself when I'm with my wife, because naturally it's the person I spend the most time with. And so. But even with, even with all of us, like, I've got to meet you guys in person a few times now. We were in Cannes with Iheart on, you know, for the festival last year together. And I think when you've met people in person, that's the only time you're gonna feel like you've got to know them. I don't think anyone unders. I feel like if someone, if someone, okay, if someone follows me on Instagram, they understand maybe 10 of who I am. If they listen to my podcast, they probably understand 75% of who I am, because they're really dialing into who I am. If they've read my books and my podcast, they're probably, like, at that 89%. If they've seen me live, they're at that 95%. And then when someone's met me in person, it's 100%. And so I think it's all percentages. And I. You know, I hope that we all. Again, going back to forgiveness and grace. I hope that we can all give each other a bit more benefit of the doubt, because I think it would go a long way for people.
- [38:29]
DJ Envy
And you officiated Ben and J. Lo's wedding.
- [38:32]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, that was a year and a half ago.
- [38:34]
DJ Envy
Were you licensed to do that?
- [38:36]
Jay Shetty
I had to do the online kind of. You know, why did they?
- [38:39]
DJ Envy
I mean, why did they.
- [38:40]
Jay Shetty
But I don't think you have to be in. In Georgia. I don't think you need to be licensed. So I don't know. The rules are there. I can't remember.
- [38:46]
DJ Envy
Why did they pick, you know, like.
- [38:47]
Jay Shetty
So I'd collaborated with Jen for a while. Like, we'd done a bunch of stuff together. She came on the show a few years ago. We'd had a few great offline conversations. I went and officiated weddings as part of the launch of her last movie on. On her special. And it was just, you know, it just. I was really grateful for the opportunity. I was, you know, pinching myself as well. And, you know, for me, I love love. Like, I'm a massive lover of love. And I. I'd sent her the book as well, and I think that kind of made it happen, too. I sent the book, and when it was being written, and she appreciated it, and she wrote me a beautiful testimonial for it. And that kind of led to the wedding as well. And it was like, I felt like I was just trying to make sure I didn't cry. Like, I'm that kind of guy who, like, ugly cries during a wedding and, like, gets really soppy and, like, you know, she's walking down the aisle, Ben's there. He's tearing up. I'm like, don't cry, dude. You're gonna ruin this. Do not cry. And I just had to hold it together just to get through. Cause I was like, I'm about to ball. So, yeah, it was special. It was an amazing experience.
- [39:51]
DJ Envy
I know you probably gotta run, so I got, like, one more question for you. You say language has created the word loneliness to express the pain of being alone. And it has created the word solitude to express the glory of being alone. Could you, could you expound on that?
- [40:07]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, it's a Paul Tillich quote. The writer Paul Tillich shared that and to me, I, I extrapolated from his work for my book because I was realizing that language and the way we use words completely defines how we think about things. So when you hear the word loneliness, you think sadness, you think potentially depression, you think negativity. Of course, solitude is spending time alone with yourself, but with strength, with courage. As Paul Tillich says, glory. So what I've realized is we've got to be so careful with the language we use in our minds. Every single word is a seed for either a weed or a flower.
- [40:44]
DJ Envy
That's right.
- [40:45]
Jay Shetty
And so every single word that you say is defining. So if I keep saying, I'm lonely, I'm lonely, I'm lonely, that's going to impact how I feel. But if I say I'm in solitude, all of a sudden there's a strength that comes with that. And so I just want to encourage people to recognize that being alone doesn't have to be a weakness. It can be a time of strength and self awareness and personal growth. But it is about the language that we use with ourselves. And so I would ask everyone to this one activity. Think about the one word that comes to your mind the moment you wake up or the moment you go to sleep. Make that word a word that you want it to be. Don't let the word you go to sleep with and don't let the word you wake up with be a word that makes you feel negative, unhealthy, or weak. Because those studies Show we have 60 to 80,000 thoughts per day and 80% of them are negative and 80% of them are repetitive. Which means you're having the same negative word or thought repeating. It's not like we're having lots of different thoughts. It's the same thought. Now, you can't control 60 to 80,000 thoughts, but you can control two thoughts of the day. So just master the first thought of the day and the last thought of the day and make it a thought and a word that you want it to be.
- [41:51]
DJ Envy
I wonder when that study was done, I wonder was it before social media or after? Because I feel like with social media it's probably triple that.
- [41:56]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, I probably read it that, that stat probably I read in the last three to four years. So I guess while social media is around. But yeah, I mean now it could have totally tripled. But it's interesting because it's the same thought often. Yeah, right. It's a lot of time we keep saying the same thing. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. That thought, could life last a year? Or like, oh, God, I'm so scared at work. I'm so anxious. That could last a year.
- [42:16]
DJ Envy
So one more thing.
- [42:18]
Jay Shetty
Yeah, man.
- [42:18]
DJ Envy
Is there anything Jay Shetty hates?
- [42:20]
Charlamagne tha God
Oh.
- [42:21]
Jay Shetty
Oh, that is. That's a great question. I need to give a good answer for that. Yeah. Think about that. By din of the answer I was going to give, I have to. I can't. So the answer is I don't. Because I think hate, personally, collectively, individually, doesn't lead to greatness. I've never seen hate lead to greatness. I've never seen hate lead to purpose. I've never seen hate lead to a positive outcome. And so I think hating anything is setting yourself up to never see the greatness, the goodness in it. And so I'd prefer not to hate anything.
- [43:10]
DJ Envy
What about the Notebook? You hate the Notebook.
- [43:14]
Jay Shetty
I don't hate the Notebook, but I have heard you. I have thoughts about the Notebook. Charlemagne. I don't hate the Notebook. I find it hilarious as to how many. And I was, like, I said, I'm a hopeless romantic. I've been like that my whole life because I grew up watching Hollywood movies thinking that that's how I was meant to fall in love. I was that dumb person who fell for that. And now I've read about something that they call Disney Princess syndrome, where people walk around, like, feeling like they're going to be saved by their partner. Like, you're going to have a knight in shining armor who's going to come in and rescue you. And I think there's Disney Prince syndrome as well, where we want to go and save someone and we want to be the be all and end all of everything. So the Notebook just has some really questionable lines where, like, Ryan Gosling's character says to Rachel McAdams character, he'll say things like, oh, you know, I could be anything you want me to be. I'll be anything. Right, we've heard that. But then the other thing is, she's on a Ferris wheel. Is that what's called. Yeah, Ferris wheel. Right? That's what you call it. Ferris wheel. I always have to check my British and American. But, yeah, she's on the Ferris wheel. He's hanging off the Ferris wheel, and he goes, if you don't go on a date with me, I will fall. Like, I'll let go. That's really unhealthy. That is really unhealthy. Like say to someone, I'm I'm gonna commit suicide if you don't go out with me.
- [44:29]
Charlamagne tha God
Right?
- [44:29]
Jay Shetty
And those. And we may think, oh, it's a movie. It doesn't matter. I know people who've heard that from people I've had people who've stalked. I've know people who've stalked people who've had people chase them down, who've said things like that to people.
- [44:40]
DJ Envy
So I think I'll kill myself if you leave me.
- [44:42]
Jay Shetty
Exactly. So I think we've got to be careful about these ideas. If you're watching his entertainment, it was really funny. I was talking to someone the other day and they were like. They're like, I didn't sleep so well. And I was like, what did you watch last night? And they went American Nightmare. And I was like, yeah, obviously, what do you expect? So whenever anyone tells me they wake up with anxiety, the first question I says, what did you watch last night? Because that is going to tell me what was in your brain. So, yeah, I don't hate the Notebook.
- [45:04]
DJ Envy
You think it's a horror movie, though?
- [45:05]
Jay Shetty
Basically, it will make your life into a horror movie for sure.
- [45:10]
Charlamagne tha God
Well, Jay Shetty, ladies and gentlemen.
- [45:11]
DJ Envy
Where can they follow you, Jay? Tell them.
- [45:13]
Jay Shetty
Come and check out the podcast on purpose. It's where I'm pouring my heart and soul and, you know, excited to share so many more amazing, maybe thought provoking, maybe even pushing you slightly conversation to come and join us at on purpose.
- [45:26]
DJ Envy
And his latest book was eight Rules of Love that came out last year, how to Find It, Keep it and Let It Go. Yeah. A new book coming or you just.
- [45:32]
Jay Shetty
No, no, no. This was just. I was just excited to be back with you and hanging and. Actually, you know what? Sometimes I love these conversations because I came here not knowing where it was going to go. And then you guys just guided beautifully. So this was wonderful, man. Yeah. Thank you, guys.
- [45:44]
Charlamagne tha God
Jay Shetty, it's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.
- [45:46]
DJ Envy
Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.