INTERVIEW: Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cam'ron, Trump, Kamala, Cancel Culture + More

Summary

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The Breakfast Club Interview: Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cancel Culture & More

Podcast: The Breakfast Club (iHeartPodcasts)
Date: October 28, 2025
Hosts: Charlamagne tha God, Jess Hilarious (Lauren LaRosa sits in for DJ Envy)
Guest: Abby Phillip (CNN NewsNight Host, Author of A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Breakfast Club features a wide-ranging interview with Abby Phillip, acclaimed CNN anchor and author, focused on her new book about Jesse Jackson’s transformative impact on politics, her approach to journalism on CNN NewsNight, the challenges facing modern media, cancel culture, criticisms of political parties, and viral moments from her show. The conversation is lively, engaging, and grounded in both historical and contemporary debates about American democracy and representation.

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Key Topics & Discussion Highlights

1. The Legacy of Jesse Jackson

[02:48–14:23]

• Purpose of the Book: Abby wants to educate people (especially younger citizens) about Jesse Jackson's nearly successful presidential runs in the 1980s and his immense political influence.
  • “Before Obama, there was Jesse Jackson… He really transformed Democratic politics.” (Abby Phillip, [03:28])
• Jackson’s Inclusivity: Emphasized the "Rainbow Coalition," building multi-racial, cross-class alliances, not just campaigning as a Black candidate.
  • “He was also in Missouri with white farmers… San Francisco with Asian American activists... he called it the rainbow coalition.” (Abby Phillip, [07:10])
• Barriers and Myths: Jackson was often underestimated, pigeonholed as a "Black candidate," and faced racism and skepticism from both media and political establishment.
• Mistakes & Obstacles: Candid talk about Jackson's missteps (notably his slur about Jews surfacing in the '84 campaign), lack of establishment support, and a hostile media environment.

“He was discounted as a candidate... if he had the Internet, it would have been a different story because so much of his message never got to people.”
— Abby Phillip ([09:32])

2. Message, Charisma & Criticism

[13:02–16:22]

• Abby and Charlamagne discuss Jackson’s media savviness—his “attention-seeking” sometimes being a double-edged sword, especially among other Black leaders.
  • “Any person who runs for president has a massive ego, has a massive desire for attention, and he fits into that category.” (Abby Phillip, [12:00])
• Modern Democrats, according to Charlamagne and Abby, often lack Jackson's messaging and connecting skills.

3. Being in "the Arena" & Criticism in the Public Eye

[14:23–19:22]

• Discussed Theodore Roosevelt’s “man in the arena” quote from Abby’s book introduction, reflecting on the importance—and difficulty—of public engagement and leadership.
• Abby reflects on her own role in cable news:
  • “We all have a role and this is mine… It’s super easy to say you shouldn’t platform this or that, when you’re at home watching.” (Abby Phillip, [16:58])
• Advocates for hearing all sides, including voices from MAGA, to ensure the audience is informed—not just comforted.

4. Navigating Tough Conversations & Platforming Debate

[19:22–22:42]

• Abby explains her philosophy on handling confrontational debates, setting boundaries as a host, and drawing lines when guests cross them (with references to viral or controversial moments).
  • “If you watch... you’ve seen the times when I’ve had to draw some lines at the table… when I’ve reached my limit, it’s the end.” (Abby Phillip, [19:41])
• The goal is honest, sometimes difficult conversation—not sanitized, predictable TV.

5. Viral Moments and Media Criticism

[29:27–32:40], [73:03–78:45]

• Abby decries critics focusing only on controversial right-wing guests, noting that her show platforms many underrepresented and progressive voices.
  • “We look for people to bring on who bring a different unique perspective… not just the typical talking head.” (Abby Phillip, [30:03])
• Discusses viral, sometimes awkward moments—specifically Cam’ron’s appearance (with the Pink Horsepower moment!) and how she handles unpredictable live TV without shying away from future risks.

“Television… sometimes you have guests and you don’t know what they’re going to say. The whole point of TV is not to be predictable and boring.”
— Abby Phillip ([78:26])

• Emphasizes the importance of not letting a viral fiasco (like the Cam’ron incident) scare her team into being "safe" or avoiding difficult guests.

6. Cancel Culture & The Evolution of Political Debate

[42:48–46:08]

• Abby contends that “cancel culture” has gone too far, especially on the left, resulting in people losing jobs or being ostracized for opinions or even mistakes.
  • “The principle is… people ought to be allowed to say things that other people disagree with without risking losing their livelihood… Sometimes people make mistakes.” (Abby Phillip, [45:26])
• Warns that if everyone continues to pursue "vengeance," it only deepens polarization.

7. Diversity on CNN & The Future of Media

[39:32–41:13], [56:42–59:15]

• Debunks the notion that CNN is just another echo chamber, emphasizing the broad range of political, racial, and cultural voices appearing on her show.
• Stresses that for CNN to remain relevant, they must balance authoritativeness and relatability—hence increased streaming, social clips, and innovative programming approaches.

“Legacy linear media has been very slow… they don’t want to sacrifice being authoritative for being relatable. But I think there’s a way to do both.”
— Abby Phillip ([56:52])

8. Advice to Politicians: Authenticity, Coalition-Building & Social Media

[59:15–67:15]

• In-depth on why politicians—especially Democrats—must meet people where they are, be authentic, and show up everywhere. Points to Kamala Harris's struggles to connect as an example.
  • “Politicians have to be able to talk in 30 second bites, in three minute clips, and in three hour interviews. That’s the future… in 2028 the bar is, can you show up anywhere and authentically reach people?” (Abby Phillip, [61:22])
• Trump’s willingness to "buck the system," for better or worse, is contrasted with Democrats becoming too "establishment."
• Strong critique: Democrats often say the right things but don’t act, leading voters to doubt their effectiveness.

9. Speculation: If Jesse Jackson Had Become President

[69:13–72:55]

• Explores how the American presidency and expectations for Black candidates might have changed if Jesse Jackson had succeeded in his era.

“If the country had elected a Black president running on a progressive platform 30 years ago, would today’s Black candidates like Kamala Harris or Barack Obama have to clear such a high bar? Maybe not."
— Abby Phillip ([69:39])

10. Personal Notes: Motherhood, Career, and Inspiration

[32:40–35:12], [48:53–56:11]

• Abby dedicates her book to her parents and daughter, reflecting on motherhood’s impact:
  • “I never knew how much I could do until I had my daughter... everything I start, I finish because of her.” (Abby Phillip, [32:51])
• Shares her career arc—from Maryland to Harvard to Politico to CNN—and her drive to provide context, not just headlines, in national conversation.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Had [Jesse Jackson] not run, Obama wouldn’t have been the nominee… he really transformed Democratic politics.”
  — Abby Phillip [03:28]

• “The double edged sword of Jesse Jackson was that he was a chaser of attention… it was both a gift and a curse.”
  — Abby Phillip [11:21]

• “Any person who runs for president has a massive ego… and he fits in that category.”
  — Abby Phillip [12:00]

• “We all have a role and this is mine… It’s super easy to say you shouldn’t platform this or that, when you’re at home watching.”
  — Abby Phillip [16:58]

• “The principle is… people ought to be allowed to say things that others disagree with without risking losing their livelihoods.”
  — Abby Phillip [45:26]

• “Legacy linear media has been slow… but I think there’s a way to do both [authoritative and relatable].”
  — Abby Phillip [56:52]

• “Politicians have to be able to talk in 30 second bites, in three minute clips, and in three hour interviews. That’s the future.”
  — Abby Phillip [61:22]

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Memorable/Lighthearted Moments

• Pink Horsepower, Cam’ron, and Viral CNN Moments:
  Abby recounts Cam’ron’s “getting some cheeks” viral moment, how she landed the segment as gracefully as possible, and why unpredictable guests are part of genuinely interesting TV:
  • “The whole point of TV is not to be predictable and boring... sometimes it goes left, but I’m not gonna come down on you for booking this interview.” (Abby Phillip, [78:26])
• Charlamagne jokes about “booking” and “Dipset on the playlist,” keeping the vibe informal and fun even through serious topics.

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Episode Timestamps

• Jesse Jackson’s Legacy & Book Insights: [02:48–14:23]
• Media, Charisma, & Mistakes: [13:02–16:22]
• Being in the Arena, Criticism in Public Life: [14:23–19:22]
• Debate Culture, Limits as Host: [19:22–22:42]
• Viral Show Moments & Criticism: [29:27–32:40], [73:03–78:45]
• Cancel Culture Reflections: [42:48–46:08]
• Diversity at CNN & Future of Media: [39:32–41:13], [56:42–59:15]
• Advice to Politicians, Kamala Harris, and Changing Media: [59:15–67:15]
• Imagining a President Jesse Jackson: [69:13–72:55]
• Abby’s Personal Story & Inspiration: [32:40–35:12], [48:53–56:11]

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Final Thoughts

Abby Phillip’s interview is a masterclass in thoughtful journalism, blending historical knowledge, self-reflection, cultural commentary, and practical media advice. The episode oscillates between deep political analysis and behind-the-scenes stories, all in the energetic, authentic Breakfast Club style.

“We want to bring interesting people onto the show... sometimes it goes left, but I’m not going to… play it safe.”
— Abby Phillip ([77:33])

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Recommendation:
If you want real talk on the intersection of Black political power, modern media, what politicians must do to succeed with today’s voters, and how to build an engaging, inclusive debate, this episode is for you.

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Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Charlamagne tha God]

Wednesday at 10, 9 Central on BET. An all new episode of 106 in Sports from executive producers LeBron James and Maverick Carter. It's a new top five countdown with hosts Ashley Nicole Moss and Cam Newton. They're breaking down the top moments in sports, culture and entertainment and highlighting both established pros and the stars on the come up. Watch the all new series 106 in sports Wednesday at 10, 9 Central on BET or catch up the next day on BET.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Hey, I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City or just the Internet Stand. I have a new podcast called what Are We Even Doing? Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture. Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me to talk about navigating this awesome high speed roller coaster we call reality. Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what are we even doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Charlamagne tha God]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[True Crime Narrator]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club Finish or y' all done. Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, the Breakfast Club Charlemagne. The guy just hilarious. DJ Envy. Envy is out today, but Lauren LaRosa is in. And we have a very special guest man, the host of my favorite cable News network show, Abby Phillips is here. Good morning.

[Abby Phillip]

Good morning.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I say Phillips, but it's Phillip.

[Abby Phillip]

Phillip. Yeah. That's okay though. Everybody S. Everybody puts an S on it. It's cool. It does not bother me. My friend says it's a sign of respect in our community. Like Selenas.

[Charlamagne tha God]

We do that with people name. Why do we do that?

[True Crime Narrator]

I don't know.

[Abby Phillip]

It. It sounds right, it feels right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How are you?

[Abby Phillip]

I am good. I'm good. I'm hanging in there.

[Charlamagne tha God]

New book out.

[Michael Lewis]

A Dream Deferred.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. I'm from South Carolina, so I completely understand Jesse Jackson and why he deserves all the praise. But why did you decide to write this book?

[Abby Phillip]

I think that there are a lot of people who have no idea that he ran for president honestly. And if they know that he ran for president, they probably don't have any idea that he came second in the Democratic nomination in 1988. So he was the runner up. And before Obama, there was Jesse Jackson. And I think this chapter really is more important now than ever. Back in the 80s, I think people didn't have any way to know that what Jesse Jackson did really mattered in the long term. But it clearly mattered because had he not run, Obama wouldn't have been the nominee. Had he not run, I don't know that you would have like a Bernie Sanders or an AOC or even a Zoran Mamdani. I mean, these are people who are running on basically the same platform that Jesse Jackson ran on. And he really transformed Democratic politics. Not to mention registering millions of voters and putting in place place a lot of the people that you know, people like Donna Brazil, Mignon Moore and so many others who are leaders in the Democratic Party, they are all there because of Jesse Jackson.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What?

[Podcast Announcer]

Okay, I was gonna say in the back of your book, the praises.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

You say like the first one talks about how he doesn't. How Jesse Jackson doesn't get credit for how influential in American politics as he was. What credit do you want people to give him after they read your book?

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, I mean, I think that he. He transformed the structure of the Democratic Party. That made it easier for outsiders to come in and disrupt the system. I think that's really what his original goal was when he was running for president. He was basically saying to the Democratic Party, you have to take us seriously as black voters. And not just black voters, but all kinds of other voters. He brought Arab Americans into the voting process. He insisted on women being on the ticket. That's why Democrats had a woman on the ticket in 1984. He insisted on Asian Americans being part of the political process. So what he was arguing for was a political system that actually takes everybody seriously. And I do think we're closer to that. Now than we were in the 80s. And he deserves a lot of credit for that. But I also think, you know, especially younger folks who, and look, I count myself among them. I was born three weeks after the 88 campaign was over.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, I was 10.

[Abby Phillip]

Right. So, so. But I'm just saying, like it's, this is not about any kind of judgment about what you know or don't know about this particular chapter of history, but it's, it's important to know that Jesse Jackson, like so many other of these leaders in our history, they had a lot of chapters and this was a really significant chapter. I mean, he ran for president two times. He almost won the nomination. He, during one of these campaigns, he went to Syria and Cuba and brought prisoners of war back to the United States. I mean, he was doing a lot of things that if candidates were doing that today, we would be like, what? Is that real? But he doesn't get a lot of credit for it. And I think a lot of it is because it was the first time that so many Americans had ever seen a black man try to do what he did. And I think it's important to remember how much of a, you know, just a barrier breaker he was at that time.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What was the single biggest myth or misconception you discovered in your reporting about either of those campaigns that you wanted to correct?

[Abby Phillip]

That he was only running as a black candidate for black voters? I think that's the biggest misconception. He was obviously very interested, motivated by the desire to make sure that black people utilize their power, not just cast a ballot, but had leverage to get changes on the platform, policy, things that mattered to their day to day lives. But he was also in Missouri with white farmers. He was also in San Francisco with Asian American activists. He had, that's why he called it the rainbow coalition. I think people remember him as being the candidate for black people, but he actually brought, as he said he would, a rainbow of people into the political process. And he does not get very much credit for how much appeal he had among white voters, especially when he ran the second time around. There's this great picture I have in the book of him at a rally with a bunch of white farmers in like their overalls and they all have paper bags on their heads with their eyes cut off because they're, they're trying to hide their faces from the feds who were trying to basically foreclose on their farms. And there's Jesse Jackson in the background with all of these white people rallying alongside them. And that's for me, an iconic photo that kind of shows that he had the same energy for our community as he did for all of those other people. And he was arguing to them, look, we have the people who are trying to divide us along racial lines, are trying to make you think that you don't have as much in common as a working class black person. And that's a lie. And a lot of people diminish that part of his campaign because it's easier to sort of just put him in a box of, oh, he was just a black candidate for black people.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I wonder where he fell short, because, you know, you talk about a lot in the book about the unlikely coalition he put together. Yeah, it seemed unlikely back then, but now it's like the norm, Right?

[Abby Phillip]

Exactly.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What President Obama did or what DP tried to do, I mean, all candidates tried to do it. Where did he fall short back then, you think?

[Abby Phillip]

There were a lot of things that happened. I think some of them were his own mistakes, and I write about those in the book. I mean, he had a very big controversy.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The Jewish slur.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, he used a slur against Jews in private, and then it became public, and he had a hard time figuring out how to deal with it and was slow in addressing it. And that really dogged him for the. Especially for the 1984 campaign. But it had an impact on 88, too. I think the other part of it was that he was a true outsider candidate. He had almost no establishment support. He was like what Bernie Sanders was in 2016, where nobody wanted to touch him among establishment Democrats. And so it was harder for him to build a real campaign that had the infrastructure that he needed to take advantage of the momentum, which when he did encounter momentum. But I would say the other thing is that he was completely discounted as a candidate. I mean, I went back and I read virtually everything that was written about Jesse Jackson in those two campaigns. And the way they talked about him as if he was a gadfly candidate, as if, you know, they really did not take him seriously in the media. And back in that time, there was no way to bypass the mainstream media. And I do think a lot of times, if he were running today, I mean, he was such a master of the press, of narrative, of really breaking through, but there was no Internet. And if he had had that, I think it would have been a different story because so much of his message just never got to people.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's a lot of the critique he gives. You know, a lot of people say that he was just an ambulance chaser who used to seek publicity. Like, you know, there's the infamous story about how he wiped Martin's blood on his shirt. I don't know if that is even.

[Abby Phillip]

That's in the book. Look, so read. I mean, you should. That part of his story is, and I'm glad you brought it up, it's important because that is. The double edged sword of Jesse Jackson was that he was a chaser of attention of cameras. He loved having a microphone in his face. And it was both a gift and a curse. He used it extremely well for decades and decades and it made him one of the most famous people in this country for a time. But at the same time it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including black people.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Especially black people, it seemed to me.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In some cases, especially black people. There were, there are a lot of stories in the book about why all of these people that he came up with in the civil rights movement, all these elected political leaders who were, you know, they ran in the same circle, some of them were his friends, did not endorse his campaigns. And it was for a myriad of different reasons. But I do think that a lot of people were, were rubbed the wrong way by his constant attention seeking, what seemed to be attention seeking. And I, and I think that even while you can recognize how important he was as a figure, it's like all of these people, they're all flawed in some really profound ways, but especially in this particular way. I mean, any person who runs for president is, has a massive ego, has a massive desire for attention, and he fits into that category like a lot of these other guys.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I don't mind it though, because, you know, we say now one of the Democrats biggest problems is not knowing how to message, not knowing how to communicate, not knowing how to connect with people. Jesse did not have that problem.

[Abby Phillip]

He did not. He was, he was a master connector. I mean, he really was. And I do think he probably got more dogged for it than he deserved because that skill was so rare at the time and it's rare now. I mean, he, he was a black man in the 80s, filling up stadiums of 15, 20,000 people. There are many candidates right now to this day that absolutely cannot do that. And he was able to do it because he had charisma, he could deliver a speech, he could connect with people who were otherwise not that interested in him as a candidate. And look, it's a skill, it's a, it's a, it's a particular gift. And I think that gift was completely. You know, it was just kind of ignored at the time. And I think we understand now how rare that is. People like Obama have it, people like Donald Trump have it, people like Bernie Sanders have it, but not that many people have it. And he had it. And at that time, it was just kind of like, well, he not a serious candidate.

[Interviewer]

In the opening of your book, you have a quote from Theodore Roosevelt.

[Abby Phillip]

Right.

[Interviewer]

About criticism and, you know, critics.

[Abby Phillip]

The man in the arena.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How do you think social media. Well, young people growing up in the social media area these days, how can they learn from a quote as strong as this one?

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, I mean, the. The quote speaks to the fact that the reason I chose it is because I think people often throw stones at people who are in the arena doing the work and getting bloodied up and muddied up by doing the work, because it's really easy to be on the outside and criticize. But by being in the arena, you are actually doing the thing, and it's messy, and it doesn't require you to be perfect. And I thought that was a good quote that kind of describes Jesse Jackson. I wrote this book, and it paints the full picture of this man in all his flaws and all his gifts. But the one thing you have to say about him is that he was in the arena. That's right. He was there at all these different junctures. He was involved in 1972 at the historic black political convention in Gary, Indiana, where black people gathered together and asked themselves, how do we exercise our power? He was there in the 80s. He was there in the 90s. So he was there in all these moments. And I think it can be very easy to criticize those people who seem to be everywhere a little too much. But being in the arena matters. Actually. Getting up off your couch and going and doing something about what's happening in the world is something that very few people do. And when they do it, we should learn from them.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Do you feel that way being, you know, one of the few black women on cable news with their own show? Especially you, because, you know, you have your own rainbow coalition that you bring together every night.

[Abby Phillip]

Okay, that's one way of putting it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

With all of these different voices, do you feel like you get a lot of that, too? A lot of criticism?

[Abby Phillip]

Look, I don't want people to misunderstand this. I am not at all saying that I am at the caliber of people like Jesse or anybody else who's really putting their body on the line to make the world a better place.

[Charlamagne tha God]

However, what you do is important.

[Abby Phillip]

But I play a role, like we all have a role and this is mine and I. And in a way, yeah, people are very easy to be like, well, she shouldn't give this person a platform, she shouldn't do this, she shouldn't do that. And I do think it's super easy to say that when you're just at home like watching the clips on your phone and this, I've been covering politics a long time. This is a time in our like, political life where we have to really know what's going on and we have to know what everybody is saying on all sides of the issue. Because I don't think that ignorance has served anybody well. And particularly I get a lot of criticism from the left, from people who are like, why does she have MAGA people on the show? And it's like, well, you should know what they're saying.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, I agree.

[Abby Phillip]

Because just so you know, half the country voted for Trump and for Trumpism and it's not helpful to be completely unaware of what is happening in those media ecosystems. So I personally think it's super important and I, I want the debate, like we need to have that debate. I want it to be right there out in the open. And I also think that it's important for people on both sides to practice being challenged because what we found on the show is that a lot of people are not used to being challenged. And when they, when they have somebody literally staring them in the face saying I disagree with you, for some people, they, they're like really taken aback, like they don't really know how to deal with that, how to counter it, how to be quick, how to respond. And I think that is a really important skill in our politics that we can go back and forth on the issues and we can really hash it out. And I, I, you know, I'll take the criticism from all sides, but I am very proud of what we do because I think that very few people are willing to do it. Very few people are willing to take the chance of even being criticized. And I don't mind it, like that's part of the job.

[Podcast Announcer]

What about. Cause I know with your show there's some moments that are like very hard hitting, right? What about when that becomes like too much for you? Cause I've seen people step away from those debate style shows because personally it becomes too much and it's triggering for them, especially for black women. How do you kind of, cause you get back up and do it again.

[Abby Phillip]

The next day like what is your, that's my responsibility. I unfortunately can't step away, but I understand when people do. And I actually think that is totally good and healthy. I think it's important to know your, your limits. And, and you know what? The good news about me not being able to step away is that it's my show and I can draw the lines when I need to draw the lines. And, and if you watch, as I know, I know you do every night, like you've seen the times when I've had to draw some lines at the table. And I don't do it that often because I want it to be not that common because when I do, it's like when your mom, you know, really tells you it's time to stop. That's kind of how I want it to be. Where it's not like that happens all the time. But you know that when I've reached my limit, it's the end. Yeah, that's the limit. And I think that's, that I can, because I'm the host, I can draw those lines around the kind of conduct that I will accept at the table.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Abby Phillip]

And I have control over who shows up and who doesn't. And so for me, I, I take that on the, the weight of having to show up every single day. But I don't discount any person saying, I need to take a break. It's. I need a, I need a moment. Because I think that's actually healthy for all of us, that we, we should take care of ourselves and our own well being, even while we try to stay engaged. And I fully, I fully support that. And, and I, and I also will say, Lauren, that I think there are definitely people who cross the line. And that's part of the dynamic that is not within our control.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And it was an example.

[Abby Phillip]

And that's okay.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I mean, I think I know one.

[Abby Phillip]

Well, look, I mean, the, the more the mo. Maybe the most famous one was the Jillian Michaels. Well, yeah, there was Jillian Michaels, but I, you know, I, you know, I'll say honestly, Jillian Michaels crossed the line in the sense that she said something that was kind of embarrassing and we addressed it, but we never said to her, you're not welcome back.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah. And I don't, I don't think she crossed the line either. I just think she just wasn't informed.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, that was, that's her. She made a decision not to want to come back. But yeah, she, the thing about that was that she actually was talking about something that was important for us, for people to be aware of was actually happening. Because right after she said what what she said about slavery and how it's overemphasized at museums and in the Smithsonian. Guess who said the same thing?

[Charlamagne tha God]

The President.

[Abby Phillip]

The President. So if you had watched our show a couple of days before, you would have known what was coming. And it's not just that she said it, but the President said it.

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[Kyle McLaughlin]

Hey there. I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just the Internet's dad. I have a new podcast called what Are We Even Doing? Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Daddy's looking good.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me. Actors, musicians, creatives, highly evolved digital life forms. And we talk about what they love. Sometimes I'll drizzle honey in there too.

[Abby Phillip]

If I'm feeling sexy in the morning.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

What keeps them going?

[Abby Phillip]

And you're maybe my biggest competition on social media.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like when a kid says brah to.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Me and how they're navigating this high speed roller coaster we call reality.

[Abby Phillip]

In Australia, you're looking at out for snakes, spiders and boys, right?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Hey, he's no Trey McDougal. Chill.

[Maggie Freeling]

This is like the comments section of my Instagram.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what are we even doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Abby Phillip]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Abby Phillip]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.

[Abby Phillip]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That y' all said.

[Abby Phillip]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured.

[True Crime Narrator]

Gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Charlamagne tha God]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Abby Phillip]

It actually became the policy that they're trying to implement at the White House. So I thought it was actually super important that that was put out there because I think people were not aware of, of the extent to which slavery was the core thing that they were mad about in terms of how it was being represented in our museums. So she. Again, I think you're right. Like I don't think that we, I just would describe that as crossing the line, but we addressed it as an important conversation that needed to be factually addressed. But there was another incident with a person who was on the show who said to another guest that a Muslim guest that their pager would go off to Medi. To Mehdi. It was a reference to the Israeli. They had like put bomb materials in pagers of the Houthi terrorists and they went off and that that was an actual line that was crossed because you wishing death on a guest on the show is completely unacceptable. And, and he was told, and I said publicly on the show he was not invited back. And so there are lines that are crossed and I think people understand that. I'll draw them when they need to be drawn. But I also think that we wanna have real conversations. Sometimes they get a little bit messy and that's okay. But I also think disrespecting people in a way that is inhumane or you know, just. There are some lines that we don't want to cross and we'll draw those lines publicly and I'll let everybody know what's going on. But for the most part we're not, we're trying to encourage speech, not trying to squelch it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The thing that bugs me out about your show is people will say, you know, they'll talk about Scott Jennings or the Kevin o' Leary or you know, the guy who said made the comments to Mehdi Hassan. But you have Anna Casparian on there and Nina Turner and Teslin Figaro and Bakari Sellers and Tiffany Cross and Mehdi Hassan and Michael Eric Dyson and Charles, all of these powerful people with powerful voices who push back on all of that nonsense. I, I don't understand why nobody ever highlights that you have voices on TV that don't get on tv. Tesla figure is only, they only put her on Fox News and it's only on the Young Turks network. They don't put these people on television.

[Abby Phillip]

We, we look for people to bring on who bring a different unique perspective. That's the whole idea is that people like Anna and Teslin and others, when we bring them on the table, it's because we Don't. We don't want just like the typical talking head that you hear on television.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's right.

[Abby Phillip]

Because I also think that what they do is they represent more people, they represent regular people and how they think. And one of the things that I love about the show because I hear it from people when I go out into the country, is that they watch. And when they hear something, regardless of what part of the political perspective they're on, they'll say, yeah, that's what I was thinking. And I want people to think that. That their POV is rep. Their point of view is represented at the table in some way. And so, yeah, we try to find unique, new, interesting, dynamic, energetic voices. People who are smart people who can get in there in the conversation and are not passive. They're actively listening, they're actively responding, they're thinking on their feet. They're not just regurgitating talking points. We don't get there every single day, but that's the goal that we try to get at. And, and so, yeah, we. On both sides of the aisle, by the way, because we also look for fresh voices on the right. Because I just think that there's. People are tired of the same old, same old, the kind of talking past each other where, you know, one. One person is saying one thing and then the other person is saying another, and they're not ever responding to each other and the ideas that are put on the table. And. And we try to move past that because I think it's not that interesting to be doing that in this day and age. And what I am also really proud of is that we get into the actual issues. We're not just talking about the politics and how it's going to play with the right and how it's going to play with the left. I'm going to ask you, who are tariffs really helping and who are they really hurting? And like, we're going to talk about the actual issue, not just quote, unquote, how it plays, because I think that's kind of like a lazy way to approach real issues that have an impact on people's real lives. Nobody cares how it plays. They want to know how it's affecting their actual pocketbook. Go ahead.

[Interviewer]

You had dedicated this book to your daughter and your two parents. I wanted to ask your question. You said to my daughter Naomi, who showed me how. How did your daughter show you how? What did you mean?

[Abby Phillip]

I never knew how much I could do until I had my daughter. And I think I know a lot of moms, parents can relate to that. That I was probably limiting myself before I had her. Because being a parent, you're like doing so much every single day, and there's nothing more motivating than your child. There is nothing that wakes me up faster in the morning than my daughter and knowing that I have to get up. And Adam not only to put food on the table and a roof over her head, but to show her what it means to work really hard. And I started working on this book, like two months before I found out that I was pregnant with her. This was kind of a surprise.

[True Crime Narrator]

Yeah.

[Abby Phillip]

And I was like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? And then the morning sickness hit and then I was launching a show and I was like, I don't know if I can do this, but I did. But I did it. And then when she was born and I was, you know, trying to raise a newborn as a first time mom and then trying to work on this book, the thing that kept me going was that I cannot quit on this for her. And so, yeah, she. She showed me how to do the things that I set out to do.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Abby Phillip]

And everything that I start, I finish because of her. Because that's what we have to do for our kids is to like, we are showing them the way. And she watches me and you know, she knows, like, mommy's going to a speech, Mommy's going to an event. Yeah. You know, she like, she really. She clocks it. She recognizes everything that I'm doing and it's in that brain somewhere. And I know that when 10 years from now, she's 4 now. 10. 10 years from now, 15 years from now, that's gonna be her normal. And that's what I want.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And child care is expensive, so. You know those speeches. Yes.

[Abby Phillip]

And it's ridiculous.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes.

[Abby Phillip]

Out here to raise and educate a child. So. Yes.

[Interviewer]

That is so powerful. I do love how you shed light on that for me. That's really dope.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And I wanted to ask you too, Right. When you did get the backlash from the Jillian Michaels thing, it was a lot of people making comments. And the social media is one thing, but when the comments come from people you actually know, like whether it's other, whether it's prominent writers or journalists, I'm not gonna say no names, but what. How did that make you feel?

[Abby Phillip]

I think it was disappointing because I. I really hope that we understand how important it is for people to be free to say things that other people disagree with. Because when the tables turn, we want that ability. And I also Think it does not do us any favors to pretend like a lot of people don't agree with Jillian Michaels and that it's an opportunity for us to correct the record.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Educate.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah, to educate, to inform, to put facts on the table. And I know, can I be real? I know black people who agree with Jillian Michaels. I've heard, and not just recently. This is a, her talking point about how slavery existed all in the world and we overemphasize it here in the United States. I have had black people say that to me, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. So it's not like this is a new talking point. She didn't invent this out of nowhere. So it's an opportunity for us to correct it. And I feel like people who, if you call yourself a journalist, you, you should never. I don't think we should be in the business of saying it would be better for us to just not hear the thing that we disagree with. It is an opportunity for us to do what we're supposed to do, which is to, to actually give people something real to counter it with. Gives people facts to arm themselves with. That is what our job is as journalists.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, I heard Andrew Gillum say he never, he said this when we did. It was the night of the election, maybe it was a couple weeks later, I remember. But he was talking about, in reference to the election, he said, I never want to be blindsided about what the other side is thinking ever again.

[Abby Phillip]

Absolutely.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And then I think about that and I also think about, man, think about somebody, think about a 8 year old child or a 15 year old child that might be just up watching CNN one night or see that clip go viral. If there's nobody there to correct that woman, Jillian, in that moment, they might believe that too. They might take that information and run with it. So you need people there to educate. I don't know why they're upset because you platform both.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah. I mean, and look, there's a whole, as you know, the media is so fragmented right now. Everybody is consuming media in their own silos and a lot of people on the left, liberals or whatever, they, they have no idea what's being said in those conservative ecosystems. And one of the things that we do is sort of try to merge those information lanes a little bit more so that we're actually hearing each other and so that you're not blindsided because there's a whole other world that's happening over here that you don't even know about and you don't find out about until people vote. And by that point it's too late. So there should be more of this happening where we hear each other, we're able to fight information with information, but facts, facts against facts, and have people pick, based on their own judgment, what makes the most sense. And I trust people enough to do that. I have enough respect for other human beings that they can make decisions on their own. But I do think that it requires that we really understand what we're even talking about. And so I don't. You know, I mean, look, it is a disappointing, yes, but I also think that many of the people who criticize what we do spend a lot of time just talking to other people who agree with them. And that's a choice, but it's not a choice that I'm making. And I think actually a lot of people want to know. They actually do want to know.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How do you know the difference? Oh, I'm sorry, go on.

[Podcast Announcer]

How do you feel when people say that CNN is a network that just does what you just said you don't want to do? Like your show is different because you bring on these different voices. But I've even seen people say that they feel like sometimes the other voices that are brought on are kind of brought on just because they have to be there, not because, like anybody truly wants them there, because CNN is known to be, or people think CNN always leans one way. How do you feel about that?

[Charlamagne tha God]

It does.

[Podcast Announcer]

I mean, yeah. And it's your network, so you don'.

[Abby Phillip]

I mean, well, look, I would say it's fair to say that cnn, we're not Fox News, but we're also not msnbc. That's true. We're probably center left, and I think that has a lot to do with our audience. But we watch, when you actually watch cnn, we have Republicans on every hour of the day. Every single one, I'm pretty sure, maybe with very few exceptions, but virtually every hour of the day. So they're not always on in the context that we put them on, but we as a network have a diversity of viewpoints on the air, more so than our competitors. And so, I mean, liberal media is a criticism that I think we hear a lot, but there's also way more liberal media and way more conservative media. And so I don't, I don't know, I don't put that much stock in it. I think it's, I think it, it, it's, it's a little bit a reflection of the cable news audience. But I also think that there are extremes on both Sides, and we're not in the extremes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I think. Real quick, Lauren, I think another thing is, like, y' all show conservatives who aren't necessarily maga, like the SC cups in the world that Adam Kinzinger.

[Abby Phillip]

There is a range.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Michael Steele was on your show last week, I believe.

[Abby Phillip]

No, no, not Michael. Yeah, he's on msnbc. But there's. There is a range to your point. And it's not just, you know, there are MAGA conservatives. There are people like SE and Alyssa Farah who are sort of somewhat anti Trump Republicans. We have libertarian people. We have progressives. We have just establishment Democrats. There is a range of political views, and we try to have them represented in one way, shape or form. We have people who. I cannot put them in a box. I don't know how to describe their political views. We bring those people on, but we also bring on people who are just not, you know, we have Roy Wood Jr. On all the time. We have Wendell Pierce comes on. Like, we bring on people who. Yes, just people who are just insightful and smart. Van Lathan, you know, they're just interesting and they bring depth to the conversation, and they put things on the table that regular that. That, like the classic New York and D.C. types don't put on the table. And so I think that we are so much more multidimensional than left and right, than Democrat and Republican, and that should be better reflected in who talks on television.

[Podcast Announcer]

You brought up. This was like. I think it was like a few weeks ago you were talking about Cancel Culture, and I saw people reacting to this, too. You said that liberals need to take more onus for where Cancel Culture went wrong. And this was after Kimmel was pulled from air. Yeah, there's been a lot of, like, conversation about if Cancel Culture is even a real thing at this point. But where do you think the liberals went wrong with Cancel Culture?

[Abby Phillip]

I think that there were some specific moments, you know, not just around race, by the way, but even around, you know, around Covid, around all the other things where gender identity. Gender, whatever. Yeah, whatever you want to call it. I'm not endorsing any viewpoints that are right or wrong, but I think it's asking the question, should people be forced out of their jobs or should the weight of sort of public opinion force people out of their livelihoods because of things that they say, maybe because of mistakes that they make? I think it is just a fair conversation to have because, as we saw when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, you had people making comments on Facebook about how they didn't like what he said and then losing their jobs over it. The government pulled people's visas and revoked their citizenship over comments like that. And I just think globally. Look, I think one of the criticisms of me making that point was that even long before this, there was cancel culture in the 80s and the 90s. And I think that's 100% true. But shouldn't we evolve to a point where we don't do this kind of thing anymore, where we think really hard about what is the bar for us to say you should be, you know, run out of society for something that you said for an opinion that you have? And I think that's a fair question to ask. Look, I don't think we should be operating based on what was done to us in the past, because I think if we do that, we're just. It's like a ball rolling down a hill. We're only going to dig ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole that we cannot get out of. And I think every single one of you would want to be able to say, I disagree with X, Y and Z person and not lose your job over it.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely.

[Abby Phillip]

So that's the only point I was making, that the principle here is not that we want to be able to do what they did to us. The principle is that people ought to be allowed to say things that other people disagree with without risking losing their livelihood and their. Their jobs over an opinion or even a mistake. That sometimes people make mistakes, they say things that they regret, and people should be allowed to. To make mistakes and atone for them without their lives being completely ruined forever. Yeah, I think we would want that for us and I think we would want that for people we disagree with.

[Interviewer]

My last question is going back to your book. Is there a politician that you see today? Right.

[Abby Phillip]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That you would say is a reflection of Jesse Jackson's legacy.

[Abby Phillip]

You know, I. What I would say is that there are. There are several politicians that are influenced by Jesse Jackson, but none of them have. Have so far proven that they can actually do what he sought out to do and be successful at it. So I would say that, you know, Bernie Sanders is a Jacksonian politician in the way that he talks about economic issues. AOC is like the next level of that. She brings in the sort of social justice piece that I think is lower on the list of priorities for someone like Bernie Sanders. And I think so I think that there are. There's sort of like this new generation of populist politician who are talking about issues in the way that he did basically arguing to voters that the system isn't set up for you, that it's not. You know, it's sort of like this idea that you're. As working people, the system is set up for the rich and the powerful and the corporations. That's the. The type of message that Jesse Jackson had, and you hear that in a lot of other politicians. But to me, the thing that's been missing from so many of them is being able to bring together the diverse coalition, because if you're a Democrat and you're trying to run for a national office and you can't rally black people and Hispanic people and Asian Americans and, like, the whole coalition, you're going to fail. Yep, you're going to fail. And that's where Bernie Sanders went wrong, is that he never really was able to get people of color on board. He had the economic piece, but he didn't have the other piece. And so I think there. The. The book kind of has a question mark at the end of it, because it's. It's a real question. Are there any politicians who can do both of those things at the same time? Because that's what's required in order to build a true coalition in the Democrat, in today's Democratic Party, you can't have one without the other. You can't have the economic peace without the other. And. And so it's. I think it's an open question, who's gonna be able to do that?

[Interviewer]

Are you doing an audio version? An audio version of it?

[Abby Phillip]

Yes. I did it. I did it. And it'll be available for people like me who don't have time to carry around a book. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Or people who just love to hear you speak. Because, to be honest, your voice has a calmness to it that would be great for me to learn all of this stuff.

[Abby Phillip]

You know what I'm saying?

[Interviewer]

Like, a lot of the stuff that I don't know, like. Yeah. Your voice is really. Call me.

[Abby Phillip]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How did you get here, Abby? What school did you go to and everything? And did you always want to be, you know, doing what you're doing now?

[Abby Phillip]

I went to Harvard or whatever. I went. But look, I. I grew up in Bowie, Maryland. Okay. Maryland girl. I'm a PG girl. And I. I went to Bowie High School. I just. I was a real nerd. I worked really hard, and I got into Harvard, and that really changed my life. And. But the reason I ended up as a journalist is because, first of all, I always loved politics, but I didn't know. I didn't want to be in politics. I don't like, to be honest, I don't like politicians. But I love current events. I love history, I love government. And when I was in college, I went on a civil rights and service tour to. We started in Memphis at the Lorraine Motel. We went to Mississippi and we traveled around to all these different sites and I blogged about it. And it was like a bug. Like I was so convinced by the power of the people who were journalists at that time and took the things that were happening in these tiny towns and brought it to the entire country and really helped change the trajectory of civil rights in the country. And I really identified with that and I identified with the power of being there to tell history. And that changed everything for me. And at that point I decided that I wanted to be in journalism and I decided to pursue it. And I got kind of lucky that my first job was at kind of a startup, Politico, which now is not a startup anymore, but at the time it was. And I was their very first class of interns. And they just kind of let me do whatever and gave me an extraordinary amount of opportunity. They hired me after college. I was covering the Obama White House. I have a late birthday, so I was 21 when I was out there, literally at the White House in the briefing room. And so they gave me an incredible opportunity to dive right into national politics. And I've been doing it ever since. And the medium has changed. I've gone from print to television, but you know, the. I've covered two presidents, I've covered several presidential campaigns. I've done a lot in politics. And I think it's all culminated to this moment where I have an opportunity to help people. Not just. Not just tell people what is happening, but help them understand it. Because I think that people are over. They're oversaturated with just all the.

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[WashablesOfSofas Advertiser]

And stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back. Featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Hey there. I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just the Internet's dad. I have a new podcast called what Are We We Even Doing? Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Daddy's looking good.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me. Actors, musicians, creatives, highly evolved digital life forms. And we talk about what they love. Sometimes I'll driz a little honey in.

[Abby Phillip]

There too if I'm feeling sexy in the morning.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

What keeps them going?

[Abby Phillip]

And you're maybe my biggest competition on social media.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like when a kid says Bruh to.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Me and how they're navigating this high speed roller coaster we call reality.

[Abby Phillip]

In Australia, you're looking out for snakes, spiders and boys, right?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Hey, he's no Trey McDougal. Chill.

[Maggie Freeling]

This is like the comments section of my Instagram.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what Are we even doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Abby Phillip]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Abby Phillip]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.

[Abby Phillip]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That y' all said.

[Abby Phillip]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured.

[True Crime Narrator]

Gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Charlamagne tha God]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Abby Phillip]

Stuff that's happening. Yeah, and they need a lot of help just understanding what really matters, what should break through to them. And that's what I get to do in my job right now.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I've heard people say things like, you know, you're the future of cnn, but, you know, how do you handle being labeled that when legacy media itself is kind of like fighting to stay relevant?

[Abby Phillip]

Yes, we are fighting for our lives out there. I mean, look, I think in the media, everybody is fighting for attention. It doesn't matter what medium you're in. And so we're in that. We're in that fight alongside everybody else. But television isn't really going anywhere. It's just that we have to evolve with people. We have to meet them where they are in both the method that we talk to people, but also the content. And I'm really grateful that we, about a year ago, a little over a year ago, is when we started to do my show this way. And I'm really kind of grateful that we did because it really speaks to what people are looking for, which I know you talk about a lot, Charlamagne, which is they're looking for more authenticity in media. And I think legacy linear media has been very slow to that because they don't want to sacrifice being authoritative for being relatable. But I think that there's a way to do both. And there's a way to kind of give people information while also speaking to them in a way that they understand and leveling with them and identifying with them or putting people on TV who they identify with. And so the innovation is happening. And CNN is going to be streaming soon, so people who don't even have cable are going to be able to literally just open up their app and, you know, pay a small monthly fee and you can watch it. And that's the future. And we're on Instagram and, you know, these. Our clips go crazy viral because that's how people are consuming information. I mean, I wish they watched the whole show, But I also appreciate that people who don't even watch TV are seeing what happens on the show because cable TV still remains incredibly relevant. That, to me, tells me what the relevance is. People may not be turning on their TV every night at the same time, but the clips are getting millions of views because they still think it's important when they see something with a CNN logo on it, that there's some authoritativeness there. So we still have that responsibility, but we're. We have to evolve just like everybody else does.

[Podcast Announcer]

With media changing, and it's now because media is changing, politicians and politics is changing as well, too, in the way that people speak to people. Kamala Harris said to BBC that she possibly may run again.

[Abby Phillip]

How?

[Podcast Announcer]

Because I know you were also very honest about what she did and do right. And what you thought she did do right when she ran, if she was to run again. Like, where does she meet in the middle with that? Because I think that's one of the things that fell off with her last campaign is that that was happening with media. But she didn't meet us where some people were at and speak straight to certain people. So what does she do this time around? And should she even run again?

[Abby Phillip]

You know, I've been talking to a lot of people about that because, as you know, this book was very controversial, and it was even more controversial than you think.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I loved it.

[Abby Phillip]

In private. In private, I think there's a lot of controversy around it because I think that there are a lot of bridges that are burned here, whether she wanted to or not. And I think it will Be very difficult for her to mend those fences that she'll need in order to run if she just decide to run again. I think this book read kind of like somebody who was kind of done with it. So I, I will be interested to see if she decides to do it. But one thing I'll say, I mean, I, I think that she still has to figure out how to tap into authenticity in how she presents herself to the public. Because this world is not getting more kind to politicians who cannot level with voters and cannot show up any and everywhere. And you know my Fred Asted Herndon, who just left the New York Times, but he's going to be at Vox. He just wrote a piece about Zuran Mamdani and he had this line that I think a lot of people quoted that was about how politicians have to be able to talk in 30 second bites, in three minute clips and in three hour interviews. And that's the future. You have to be able to do it all. You have to be able to show up in any medium and people get in a second who you are and what you're about. And I think that she still has work to do in that respect. And maybe this book is the first kind of foray into that because I read her last book and the tone was completely different. This is a different kind of book and it was an opening foray into her showing people more of herself. But she's going to have to catch up to the speed and the kind of realness of media and politics that will be the bar in 2028. Like in 2028, the bar is going to be are you a politician that can show up any and everywhere and authentically reach people? And I think she is still straddling the old world and the new world and she's gonna have to figure out which one she wants to be in.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I, I agree with that. I think it's actually more important just to show up any and everywhere as your true authentic self. I don't think you should worry about whether or not this is gonna be a 30 second sound bite or a three minute clip or three hours. Just go have the conversation. Because the media is gonna do that for you. The media is gonna chop it up for you.

[Abby Phillip]

Yes, but. Yes, but I also think, look, I mean, I'm a journalist, so I deal with her campaign and all of that. And I'm telling you the answer is not yes to everything in terms of where she's willing to show up. And some of that is maybe staff and how they try to kind of protect their principal. But in the future, I agree. You have to be willing to talk to any and everyone. You have to be willing to take risks. You have to be willing to sit in front of people who are. Might very well be hostile to you and win them over. And I think that. And you might fuck up and you might. Yeah, so what? Exactly. And I'm just telling you, it's. That was not how they ran that last campaign, period. It wasn't. And they're going to have to. She's going to have to be willing to do that, which is going to. It's. It's going to require taking a lot of risk. But that is the future of politicians, the ones who will thrive in tomorrow's media environment. They. They. You got to be willing to go everywhere on a dime, prepared or not, briefed or not. That is how it works. And that's not how they ran in 2024. And if she's gonna run again, it's gonna have to be a complete overhaul strategy.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like, don't wait, don't. And this is for all of them. Don't wait until it's actual 20, 28, 27, not do it now. Like, start going to these places now. And I think that a lot of them should be launching their own platforms. They should have their own podcast.

[Abby Phillip]

Gavin Newsom. I mean, and look, I mean, you say what you want about Gavin Newsom. This is what I'm talking about. He had this podcast and he was bringing on all these conservatives, and he got a lot of criticism for it. But I think what he was trying to show was a willingness to talk to anybody and to debate anybody. And again, I think there's a lot of that that's going to be required in the future. You've got to prove to people that you can win the argument. And if you can't do that, it doesn't matter how polished you are, how experienced or knowledgeable you are. I think that's the baseline bar that you're going to have to cross for a lot of voters in this future media ecosystem.

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, I, I agree. You know, the, the interesting thing that the VP is doing, I think the book tour, I think this book is going to help her a lot. Yeah, because it's the first step to being completely honest. And then going on the book tour, but also going into these cities and talking to, you know, locals when you're in these cities, I think that's going. That's going to go a long way. Yeah, but, but I think it's always.

[Abby Phillip]

Important to do that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But. But none of these candidates are going to really stand a chance in hell if none of them are really willing to challenge capitalism.

[Abby Phillip]

Well, do you know what I'm saying? Well, you know, I mean, there's some truth there. Okay. The part of that that I, I would say is true is that when you look at what Trump is doing as president, in a way, he's challenging capitalism. He's putting tariffs on, on countries indiscriminately just because he wants to, making the case that he's doing it for Americans. He is taking government stakes in private companies. That's a Bernie Sanders idea, by the way. He is creating a government website where people can shop around for prescription drugs, another Bernie Sanders idea. So his willingness to just take some of these ideas the Democrats have been talking about and just do them, no matter how controversial they are, has been one of the things that, whether you like him or not, what people will say about Trump is that he does what he says. And I think the Democrats, one of the big problems that they have is that voters don't think they're going to do what they say.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's a fact.

[Abby Phillip]

They say all the right things, but they don't think they're gonna do what they say. And so whether it's challenging, you can call it challenging capitalism or challenging whatever, voters wanna know that you're willing to buck the system for them. And I think Trump does that right now in a way that really, like, shakes people up and makes people really mad. But that is also why a lot of voters, whether they like him or not, they will describe him as effective.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I wonder how, though, because it's like he's bucking the system, but it's only benefiting the rich right now, so it's not even benefiting his voters. I wonder why they still feel.

[Abby Phillip]

And even, you know, look, the tariff thing, he, he's making the case to Americans that this is a benefit to them. But the economics don't work. No, they don't make sense. Farmers would beg to differ. Right at this moment, they are struggling mightily under these tariffs. Small businesses are struggling mightily under these tariffs. So there is obviously a really big difference between what Trump is doing and what he's saying and what is actually happening. But I do think that it's breaking through. And my only point about that was just there's a. Democrats have become way more establishment in the last 15 years because Trump is so anti establishment. They've defined themselves in opposition to Trump and So they've become sort of an avatar of this system. And I don't think they realize the degree to which voters do not like the system at all. And the next Democratic nominee is going to have to be able to tap into that one way or another to say to people, I get it, you don't actually like the way things are working. Stop defending the status quo and figure out what an alternative is that isn't just opposition to Trump. And do I see anybody actually doing that right now? No, not really. But, look, time will tell. We've got a long way ahead. And if any, if history tells us anything, sometimes the person who ends up rising to the top is not the person that any of us are thinking about or talking about. It's somebody who's going to come seemingly out of nowhere, but not going to come from the center of the political universe right now.

[Podcast Announcer]

So we'll see if to your point of everything you just said, right, if Jesse Jackson, right. Was able to actually become president. President and get in office, just do things for people that he cared about, how would Barack Obama's presidency have been different? Kamala Harris just on this run, feeling like she has to dodge certain things and can't speak straight to black people. How would all of that be different if he had been able to get in office and do what he was doing before he was voted president or not voted president?

[Abby Phillip]

That's really interesting. It's such an interesting question. I mean, I think one of the reasons that Vice President Harris and Barack Obama have had to present a certain way to the American public is the perception that. That a broad swath of the electorate, especially white voters, won't take a black candidate seriously unless they are very buttoned up, have the resume all lined up, the whole thing. And that's accurate, right? That, like, we, we all understand that you kind of have to clear a higher bar in order to even be let in the door. And I do wonder if the. If the country had successfully elected a black president who was running on a progressive platform 30 years ago, whether they would have that same burden. And I don't know, maybe they would not have. You know, one of the things about Jesse Jackson is that his fluency in a wide range of issues as somebody who never was elected to political office, who came out of the segregated south, who came out of a civil rights tradition, he was right up there with all the other candidates on the debate stage, talking about foreign policy, talking about economic policy, giving speeches. I mean, I would talk to people who would say that they would give him, you know, like a 30 minute briefing, and he would go in there and he would weave a whole speech around an issue. He could take information in and very quickly turn it around into something that was compelling to an audience. And so he had a kind of intellect that was not very respected at the time. And I do think that, you know, if. If the country had elected a black president, I think candidates today who are running, who are like Kamala Harris or Barack Obama would not have to. Would not have to do so much to show white Americans in particular that they're qualified and that they have the basic qualifications to fit the job. I think that added burden is one of the reasons that it's hard then to turn around and say to those same candidates, well, you've got to be authentic. Because that same authenticity is what they get knocked for early on in their career. So it is. I'm not suggesting that it's easy. I think it is difficult. You have to be able to do both things. And actually, I would say Obama actually did both things pretty well. He had. He was incredibly credentialed, but he was incredibly authentic in the communities where he needed to be authentic in. And I do think that it is possible to do it, but it is absolutely a higher bar. And it's a higher bar still to this day, because we've only done it once, elected a black person to the highest office in the land. And so there's still a lot that has to be dealt with in terms of people's preconceived notions of what people of color can do at high levels of political office.

[Charlamagne tha God]

My last question, when. When Cameron took a sip of pink horsepower on your show, like you just took a sip of that.

[Abby Phillip]

Is there something known in the industry about how Diddy treated his artists?

[Charlamagne tha God]

So I'm gonna get some cheeks after this horsepower joint.

[Abby Phillip]

I knew you were gonna bring this.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And then when Cam said he was gonna get some cheeks after your interview, did you understand what was happening in that moment?

[Abby Phillip]

I knew that we needed to end the interview, and obviously I knew we needed to end the interview. We were up against the end of the show, and we didn't. We had to get to a certain time. So, you know, I had to land that plane, and. And I did. And look, I mean, it was ridiculous, but as we know, that was the point.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So did the person who had to transcribe the show afterwards ask you what that meant? What did he get some. What did you mean he had to get some?

[Abby Phillip]

Well, we all were just like what just happened? Yeah, you know, I mean, whatever. It's. I'm not gonna give this much more oxygen because I know that's part of the point. I know he was here a little while ago talking about it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Let me ask you, because what was your favorite viral news network moment was the 60 Minutes joint? Was it the Bill O'Reilly or the CNN drinking pink horsepower?

[Abby Phillip]

CNN. CNN. CNN.

[Charlamagne tha God]

By far. He said he sold out after he did the show.

[Abby Phillip]

I'm sure he did.

[Podcast Announcer]

And he said before it wasn't like, it wasn't personally anything with you. He just felt like the up for things that aren't about what he does outside of.

[Abby Phillip]

All I will say is that we were told by his team that he wanted to talk about this, not the other way around. So that's. We, obviously, we don't book people about things they don't want to talk about. So we would never bring someone on the show and force them to talk about something that they didn't agree to talk about. So, I don't know. I mean, everybody. We have free will. We can do what we want. Um, but like I said, I knew immediately. Actually, we. We knew pretty early on in the interview that we needed to get out.

[Interviewer]

As quickly as possible.

[Abby Phillip]

It was. I mean, it was from the. From the get go.

[Interviewer]

You could read the room.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You can. Yeah.

[Abby Phillip]

I'm not new to this. Like, I know from the beginning when somebody is not interested in being in being interviewed. And so we knew we needed to get out, but it was just a timing thing. You know, when you're at the end of the show. And he was actually supposed to be on the show earlier but was late. And so we. We were just figuring out how quickly we could hand off to Laura Coates at 11 o'. Clock.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That puts you in a good class, though. Cam's got some really good interviews with news anchors. Anderson Cooper, Bill O'Reilly, now Abby, Phillip. He got some great moments.

[Podcast Announcer]

No dipset on the playlist no more, huh?

[Abby Phillip]

Absolutely. Listen, Absolutely not. We are not. That is not a class of. And I think he said, I want to be.

[Charlamagne tha God]

He said Abby's was his favorite. I asked him which one was it? The Anderson Cooper 60 Minute Snitching Interview. The Bill O'Reilly when he was like, you mad? You mad? Oh, Abby, Phillip. He said, yos. Cause he sold out of Pink Horsepower.

[Abby Phillip]

I'm. I'm happy for. Yes, I'm happy for him. Um, but, you know, do you take.

[Podcast Announcer]

Stuff like that personally when it happens?

[Abby Phillip]

No, Abs. Absolutely not.

[Podcast Announcer]

Not personally. But just like, why you? Why my show? I'm a black woman, I'm here on cnn. Like, why me?

[Abby Phillip]

No, I, you know what? Let me just, I'll just say this because I, I don't, I've never talked, I've actually never talked about this before. But when that happened, our booker who booked that interview was a young woman and she was very upset about it. And I said to her afterwards, and I said to my entire team, I was like, this is not going to be a reason that we play it safe. We are not going to take this as a moment to say, oh, this happened to us. We can't have people like that on our air again. I don't believe in that. I think that we are out here trying to hear from people who are interesting and different and maybe sometimes it goes left. But I'm not gonna, we're not gonna come down on you for booking this interview because we want to bring interesting people onto the show. And it was important to me to convey to them that we're not gonna go into a little ball and be like, oh my God, this went viral and this was embarrassing. No, this too shall pass. Like, he had his moment. It was fine. I don't really care. I do. I wish he didn't do that on the air.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, it was great.

[Abby Phillip]

But, but I'm not using it as an excuse to say that we're gonna play it safe on television because that's not what we're doing here.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So you book a fantastic job, fantastic booking. What's her name? Fantastic book. Okay. Did she book your show every night?

[Abby Phillip]

No, she, she, unfortunately she moved to a different city, so she's no longer with us. But she was over. We, listen, we, I, I, I, it wasn't just her. I told her boss too.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Abby Phillip]

And I was like, we are not, we are not going to treat this like some kind of major mistake because it was not. It is television. And sometimes in television you have guests and you don't know what they're gonna say. And the whole point of TV is not to be predictable and boring. That's right. So let's not do that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I thoroughly enjoy your bookings. I thoroughly enjoy your show. Make sure y' all watch abby Phillip on CNN News Night every night at 10. And then this table for five comes.

[Abby Phillip]

On at 10:00 o' clock a.m. on Saturday. And don't forget to buy the book.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes. A Dream Deferred is out right now. Jesse Jackson in the fight for black political power. Abby Phillip, keep doing a great service though.

[Abby Phillip]

Thank you guys for having me. Come on the show sometime, all of you, really. Yeah. I know you have. I know you have some political viewpoint.

[Interviewer]

I got some law stuff. You know what I'm saying? I got some little stuff.

[Abby Phillip]

Even. Table for five. I know it's. I know it's late at night, so table for five. You can. Come on. It's a different time.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's more of a Charlemagne.

[Abby Phillip]

Earlier for your schedule. Yes.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Podcast Announcer]

He can go in there, argue for us. Yeah, we'll be supporting.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I enjoy watching. It's Abby, Phillip, it's the Breakfast Club.

[WashablesOfSofas Advertiser]

Hold up.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Hey, I'm Kyle McLaughlin. You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City or just the Internet stand. I have a new podcast called what Are We Even Doing? Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture. Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me to talk about navigating this high speed rollercoaster we call reality. Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way. Listen to what are We Even doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Charlamagne tha God]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[True Crime Narrator]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Lewis]

Michael Lewis here. My best selling book the Big Short tells the story of the buildup and burst of the US housing market back in 2008. A decade ago, the Big Short was made into an Academy Award winning movie. And now I'm bringing it to you for the first time as an audiobook narrated by yours truly. The Big Short Story. What it means to bet against the market and who really pays for an unchecked financial system is as relevant today as it's ever been. Get the big short now at Pushkin FM. Audiobooks, or wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.