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The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Alencia Johnson On 'Flip the Tables,' Political Disruption, Reciprocity, Quitting Therapy +More
00:40:21
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- [00:00]
DJ Envy
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- [00:27]
Alencia Johnson
Panoramic moonroof, ambient lighting, Bose and massaging leather appointed seats are optional features.
- [00:30]
Carlos Miller
Taking control of your career is empowering. Just don't tell my boss I said that. Just kidding. I am the boss. This is Carlos Miller from the 85 South Show. And building a career isn't just about a job. It's about creating a path that impacts our community and future generations. Whether you're starting out or even making big moves, State Farm is here to support you with resources to help protect what you're working hard to achieve. They've got your back every step of the way. Because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Find out more@state farm.com Wake that ass.
- [01:04]
Charlamagne Tha God
Up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.
- [01:08]
DJ Envy
Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Jess. Hilarious Charlamagne the guy. We are the breakfast club. Lauren LaRosa's here as well. And we got a special guest in the building.
- [01:16]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yes, indeed.
- [01:17]
DJ Envy
Her new book, Flip the Tables is out right now. We have Alencia Johnson. Welcome.
- [01:21]
Alencia Johnson
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
- [01:23]
DJ Envy
How you feeling?
- [01:24]
Alencia Johnson
I feel good. Interesting to say that in the midst of everything going on. But I feel good taking care of myself and getting this message out.
- [01:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
But we find joy what we can, right?
- [01:32]
Alencia Johnson
Right. We have to.
- [01:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
You got to. That's the only way to survive.
- [01:35]
Alencia Johnson
Absolutely.
- [01:35]
Charlamagne Tha God
I love the title of your book because I think that, you know, people don't ever expound on that part of Jesus enough. You know what I mean?
- [01:42]
Alencia Johnson
That crunk Jesus. Yes, yes.
- [01:44]
Charlamagne Tha God
Flip the Tables. The Everyday Disruptors Guide to Finding Courage and Making Change. Break that title down.
- [01:50]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. You know, I'm glad you mentioned that reference. I'm a pastor's daughter. I love that story of Jesus. And in all of my work, I've worked on a lot of presidential campaigns. I've worked for Planned Parenthood. People constantly ask me, oh my goodness, how can I make change? They think it has to be at this massive scale. But what I realized is that when we find the courage to really be ourselves and to live in our truth and to speak up in rooms and do these small acts of disruption every single day. It doesn't actually require folks to quit their jobs and run for office. I don't think a lot of people should do that. It doesn't require us to be like Dr. King or having these massive platforms, which are really important. But there are things that folks can do every single day. And I found that getting connected to your individual purpose and having the courage to be who you are is directly connected to being an everyday disruptor that propels our communities forward. And I think it's kind of divine that it's such a time as this that it came out when I. And I started writing this book five years ago, and who knew that it would come out three months after. A few months after Donald Trump was.
- [02:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
Elected Again, you worked on the VP's campaign, right. And did you work. You worked on Barack Obama?
- [02:57]
Alencia Johnson
Yep, I worked on. I worked on Obama's campaign, Joe Biden's campaign, Elizabeth Warren's campaign, and Vice President Harris campaign.
- [03:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
What bothers me is I know people like you exist and people like you work for these individuals. Why aren't they disruptive enough? Why don't they flip tables? Why do they keep. Why do they. Don't. Why don't. Why don't they have the courage to disrupt the status quo?
- [03:17]
DJ Envy
You talk about Barack Kamala, all of them.
- [03:19]
Alencia Johnson
All of them, yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because I don't. I don't want to say I look at. Well, I don't think I look at all of them, in essence, the same in Democratic politics. In politics in general, elected officials, I think, tend to follow a certain path. Right. And sometimes it seems as though making sure that the status quo remains. I do think if we step back a little bit, Barack Obama was a bit of a disruptor because.
- [03:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
Because of him, though. Because of his identity.
- [03:49]
Alencia Johnson
Because of him. His identity. But. And because he, you know, folks told him he shouldn't have ran, and he. And he did. Right now, there's a whole system at play that folks, you know, when you become the President of the United States or the nominee for the President of the United States, you know, you uphold this party platform. But the reality is I don't look at them to disrupt what our country needs politically. I actually look at us as the people and the groundswell, which is why it's just as important. Yes, I work for a lot of presidential campaigns, but it's just as Important to work for these local races, to work for these primary races, to work for these governor's races. All of these people who are actually trying to challenge the system and get more reflective folks in position to actually push forward the policies we care about, like universal health care and racial justice and access to abortion and all of those things. And so, you know, it takes a lot of courage to shake the table, and it takes a lot of courage to concede that if you're gonna shake the table, you actually might lose in the short term, but you're going to create a path for other people to, you know, push forward that change. And it'll be a little bit easier because you were there and you started something.
- [05:00]
DJ Envy
How did you get into politics? What got you into politics in that part of the game?
- [05:04]
Alencia Johnson
I think it was always in me. I talk about my late grandmother in the book often. I actually dedicate the book to her, Ms. Ozella Bennett. And she was one people who, much like a lot of our ancestors, their names aren't in history books, but they were foot soldiers. My grandmother was in the church. I'm the daughter of a pastor, so I grew up in the black church. And there's a lot of politics there, right? A lot of social justice there, and just this understanding that where much is given, much is required, that my gifts are not my own, and that they are actually on loan and that I actually have to get those out and help the world around me. And my grandmother, no matter how much she had or what she didn't have, she always felt like she had to in the gap. And voting for me is just all. I mean, I would go with my parents to the voting booth. I had that little sticker, but that was just, like, one part of it. I had to be an active participant in the world that I wanted to create. And so for me, it was just kind of natural that it would be a part of my life. Now, how I got to my position, I talk about it in the book. I didn't know anybody in Democratic politics when I moved to D.C. i was working a corporate job. I just had a dream. I was like, oh, this black man is president. I think I kind of want to work for his reelection campaign and figured out how to network with folks that ended up taking a job that I wasn't even qualified for. But they took a chance on me, and I figured it out from there. And I can't just sit on the sidelines and critique something and not be a part of it. And I also understand how engaging if so many more of us engaged in the process, the outcomes will look different, our communities will look different. But we, for whatever reason, there are so many barriers for us to engage. And that's another reason why I wanted to be part of this, because I felt like, well, if I can do this and people can identify with me, maybe it won't feel as hard. Right. For me to engage in politics. Maybe I won't feel ashamed that I don't know every single term that they're using or every single way that the policy is developed. I'll be honest with you. Sometimes when I have to go on cnn, MSNBC, and talk about something, I gotta research what I'm talking about. Because government class was in high school, I'm 37 years old, I don't remember everything. And so if I can't remember all these things, right, if I have to continue to inform myself, imagine all the other people who are just scared to participate because they don't know. It's not that they don't want to. And so I know that I have to be a representative of that, but I also, again, it's this calling where much is given, much is required, and I'm required to make my communities better.
- [07:24]
Jess Hilarious
I think right now, with politics and, like, how we're seeing people get messages out through, like, TikTok and stuff like that, things are changing.
- [07:29]
Alencia Johnson
Absolutely.
- [07:30]
Jess Hilarious
And I saw an interview that you did where you talked about you weren't the most qualified, but you were the most recommended when it came to working for the Obamas. And then I saw another interview where you talked about your red flag is you chapter in your book. And putting both of those together, I think that there's like a renaissance of, like, new political leaders, but they're afraid that they don't know enough or that they can't challenge the Trumps of the world. You know what I mean? So how do you speak to those leaders that are coming up in this book? Because they're there. They just need to figure out how to do what you did.
- [07:57]
Alencia Johnson
No, they literally are there, which is why I start the book with disruption of self. Right. We actually have to look in the mirror, and that's the hardest thing to do. One thing that I realized in working in advocacy spaces and political space, I'm not in trouble for saying this, but we're telling the world to treat us well and to vote for us, to enact these policies that see us as worthy for humanity and all of these things and fighting for justice, and yet we're not Treating each other well, right? And a lot of that is because we are not healthy. We're not dealing with the things that are. That are holding us back from being who we are. We're not dealing with this trauma. And we are. We are doing this interpersonal harm that is actually not allowing us to do the work that needs to be done for communities. And so I put that chapter, the red flag is you and the disruption of self section of the book. Because so many times we are like. We are the ones that are getting in our own way of our own destiny, Whether it is that professional pursuit, whether it's that personal pursuit. I tell a lot of business in my book. And a lot of this was inspired by a lot of relationships that were going the wrong way. And I was like, I'm dating the same person, but none of them know each other. Like, what's happening here, girl? I'm holding myself back from career opportunities. I'm holding myself back. But yet I knew I had this big vision. And so if we remove those barriers within our own selves that are holding ourselves back, we would be so surprised the change that we could have in the world around us, right? We would be so surprised at the doors that would not just open, but the spaces that we create that somebody else was waiting for us to create. So many times people just sit on the sidelines to critique, but they don't have the courage to actually try and put themselves out there. And that's why, you know, the only thing stopping us sometimes, yes, there's the system, right? Like, there's all of that. And yet at the same time, sometimes it's us getting in our own way.
- [09:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think it's us. Majority of the time, it is. I really feel that way. I feel like, you know, yes, we do know the systems are there. But even just having that mentality, right, like, oh, the system's going to stop me. The system's gonna stop me.
- [10:00]
Alencia Johnson
You're already telling yourself, no, that's right. Or you're already limiting yourself, right? And multiple things can be true at the same time. I say that all the time. I have a friend who hates that I say that. But I'm like, yes, the system's there, but it's you, you sitting over here. And I talk about this as well. I talk about mental health in the book. I was diagnosed with OCD when I was 15. So I've been in and out of therapy my whole life. And at one point, actually in the process of writing this book, which was really hard, I Quit therapy because I was like, I'm sitting here having the same conversation every Monday at 5pm and I'm not doing the work because I'm scared of facing myself. I'm not having that difficult conversation. I'm sitting here theorizing it.
- [10:36]
Charlamagne Tha God
Debbie Brown just said that literally. I mean, that's something she's always told me. But literally she was just sitting there and said the exact same thing. People will go to therapy for years.
- [10:43]
Alencia Johnson
For years and be afraid to actually.
- [10:45]
Charlamagne Tha God
Do the hard work on themselves.
- [10:46]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. And it's like, how do we as a society get to a place that we are scared to sit with ourselves? Part of how I got to this book was very successful career. I'm extremely blessed. I'm sitting in this beautiful corner apartment. I got all the things I bought, all the things I can travel, going to all these places. I was sitting there and I was crying because I was not happy. And I looked in the mirror and I was like, what are you covering up and what are you running from? And what really hit me was when I realized you're running from yourself. And like, how sad is that? That we run from ourselves? Like we are something to be fearful of. And so I had to change the relationship with myself. I had to change the relationship with what success looked like, with what relationships look like. And that, you know, tension and confrontation and disagreement in relationship doesn't mean the end of a relationship. Right. And that shifted my friendships, it shifted my professional relationships and it got me to this bold place of, you know what, I know what my purpose is. I know that this is a means to an end. And if this doesn't go my way, at least I've tried.
- [11:50]
DJ Envy
What didn't you, what didn't you like that you saw, like, what were you running from particularly?
- [11:54]
Alencia Johnson
And myself. Oof. One of the things is how hard I am on myself. I'm a Virgo in four houses and clearly a high achieving person. And I was just so hard on myself. September 3rd, very close to Beyonce, same birthday, birthday, twins. Okay. So you feel me? And I got to a place where I was judging myself so hard, judging myself for. I don't even want to say mistakes, but learning opportunities, judging myself for outcomes that did or did not happen. And I had someone say to me, they said, if people around you that you love heard how hard you are on yourself, how are they going to feel you're going to be with them? I was like, oh, wow. And like to, to really kind of beat myself down with, you should have done this Right. You could have done X, Y, and Z. Now I'm working to take should out of my vocabulary and embracing things as, you know, a learning opportunity. And I also, as a person of deep faith, I talk about grace, and we talk about God's grace, and we talk about giving other people grace. But I had to learn to give myself that. That grace as well, and, like, let go of that. That pressure to feel or strive for perfection. Because what really is perfection? Right. And what is actually the goal? Because there is, like, the goalposts will move every single time. And how do you just become content with just being. I also realized that I didn't again, in therapy, knowing all the language, I didn't like to sit with my feelings. Oh, oh, no, I'm angry. I don't want to sit with that uncomfortable feeling. I'm going to go move on to something else. And it's something that black women tend to do is instead of sitting with our feelings or whatever it may be, we go get another degree. We go get another professional pursuit.
- [13:39]
Jess Hilarious
We were just talking about that in my group chat, like, a week ago, about how, like, now at this age, we begin to realize that the overachieving isn't, like us, a need to achieve. It's kind of like a escapism type.
- [13:49]
Alencia Johnson
Of thing or trauma response.
- [13:50]
Jess Hilarious
Yeah, even you just instantly were even like a breakup. A breakup inspires a new business or like a, you know, something like that.
- [13:56]
Alencia Johnson
It does. And. And, you know, those things are beautiful. Right? You know what is. Birth out of pain can be very beautiful. I talk about that, too. But I also talk about when I was in therapy, this conversation, Black woman therapist. And I had. And she wanted me to answer the question of who are you? And she asked me that question, and I said, oh, okay, I'm about to, like, rattle off my resume. And she said, no, who are you? Unattached to your professional accolades?
- [14:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
And you started crying.
- [14:20]
Alencia Johnson
I sure did. I was like, that's a hard question to answer, girl. And we still had, like, 45 minutes left, so I couldn't really hang up. I was $200. Like, I'm sitting there looking at her, she's looking at me. We both look at each other like. She's like, sis, how you gonna answer that question? And what I found is that the answer is ever evolving. And it was that search for myself, right. And I wanted to drag everybody else with that. So I tweeted that question and it went viral. And now it's a whole chapter in the book. But, you know, I Go back to that question of who am I? Like, when I'm anxious, when I'm feeling like, oh, I gotta strive for something else. No, I've done enough. But who am I? I'm curious. I'm a lover. I fight for people. I love people. Right. I'm actually not this person who's Teflon Don, who doesn't need intimate relationship in all forms. Right. Like, who am I? And let me sit in all of that. And that is enough.
- [15:10]
Jess Hilarious
You're not in therapy anymore. You said when you were and when I was.
- [15:13]
Alencia Johnson
I. So I. And I'm not discouraging people from therapy at all. I think for me right now, in this period of life, I'm just taking a break, and I think mental health care is extremely important. Again, I mentioned I was diagnosed with OCD when I was 15 years old. So I've been in and out over half of my life, majority of my life at this point. And there are times when I need extra support. There are times when I need an antidepressant. There are times when I actually do need to sit on that couch every single week. And then there are times when, okay, I'm going through the same motions again now. When am I going to do the work? And so I think people need to look at it as a support system. It's like working out in a gym. Sometimes I feel like I need a trainer. Even though I've been athletic my whole life, sometimes I need a trainer. Sometimes I can do it on my own and vice versa. And so it's a matter of tapping into your power and your needs at the time. That makes sense for you.
- [16:04]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm so glad that you and Deb are doing a conversation this week, having a conversation about how many books this week or May.
- [16:10]
Alencia Johnson
We're going to do it at some point. It's not public yet, but it's all.
- [16:13]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm sorry, because literally, if she was just here. And a lot of that is her new book, Living in Wisdom.
- [16:17]
Alencia Johnson
She's in it. Yeah. Well. And, you know, here's the thing. I shared with her, too. I'm based in the D.C. area, and I moved back to the D.C. area, not for politics, but to be close to my family. And it's so interesting because friends in politics are like, you're not at this event. I was like, nah, I'm hanging out with my family and my friends and my loved ones. But I said to Devi one time that that area needs so much healing so that folks get off of this hamster wheel. Of chasing what's next, of what's. What is deemed, you know, important to society and really getting into ourselves. And, you know, I'm actually excited for her book, too. I feel like all these books are, like, now all these black women stories are coming out to, like, build upon one another.
- [16:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, you need them now more than ever, especially being that, you know, they're trying to take anything Black history literally at the university.
- [17:06]
Alencia Johnson
Literally. There's a chapter in the book, and so it's in three parts. Disruption of self, disruption of vision. That's the hard part. Disruption of vision. And, you know, especially for, like, black folks and black women, the first chapter in Disruption of vision, Goodbye to the Boss, the T C H. Yep, that's a good one. Because it talks about rest. It talks about disrupting this notion that we are only supposed to labor and give birth to labor. Like, there is so much more to us as black women and how we deserve the rest and all those things. And then disruption of community. And right now, we need to radically change how we think about community and build community. But it really starts with that imperative, healing. And in disruption of community, there's a chapter of storytelling. And I think folks look at storytelling, they think of Ava DuVernay and Ryan Coogler, who are doing amazing work in preserving our history through artistic expression. But individual storytelling is extremely powerful. And I've seen it even in my own life. But I've seen how individual storytelling shifts families and friendships, and then that expands your capacity for understanding of one another. And then so one person becomes 10 people, and then all of a sudden you're understanding a complicated issue in a way that's very personal to you. Right. And so storytelling is. If it wasn't so powerful, there wouldn't be all these attacks on our institutions and our history. And I actually think everybody, whether or not you're putting a book out there or not, figure out a way to preserve your story. I was in Mobile, Alabama. I went to the, I believe the Heritage Museum where the Clotilda is and. Or the remnants of that slave ship. And just going through the. It's a very small museum, but just going through it. And they're talking about how Zora Neale Hurston had captured some oral history. And I'm just thinking about, wow, so powerful for her to capture that in the 1920s, for us to be reading about it right now. And if we think about so much history is just passed down through these oral traditions, what would happen if we can literally preserve them in a written way? Digital way. Like we have so many opportunities to preserve our history, to pass down to the next generations.
- [19:14]
DJ Envy
I was gonna ask you talked about when you came in. You talk about relationships and you talk about friends and how you had to see things in yourself. Was it the fact that you expected too much of people? And how did you get over that? Like, you know, Cause you talk about you wanted somebody to do things the way that you did it, or quote unquote as close to perfect as possible. How did you get over that with relationships and with co workers?
- [19:37]
Alencia Johnson
Well, again, facing the mirror with myself, I was like, girl, you don't like yourself every day.
- [19:42]
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- [20:33]
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- [20:35]
Alencia Johnson
Leather Appointed seats are optional features.
- [20:37]
State Farm
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- [21:40]
Bom Han
It's your boy, Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic.
- [21:43]
Alencia Johnson
Epic.
- [21:44]
Bom Han
Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K Pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees, we're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K Pop isn't just a genre, it's a whole world. And we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement.
- [22:33]
Alencia Johnson
Are you ready?
- [22:34]
Bom Han
Let's go. Let's go.
- [22:40]
Israel Gutierrez
I'm Israel Gutierrez, and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [22:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions.
- [22:54]
Israel Gutierrez
From the building of the core that included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport.
- [23:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
I just felt like the biggest thing was to earn the trust of the players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.
- [23:11]
Israel Gutierrez
Today, the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6 foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to.
- [23:18]
Alencia Johnson
Love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [23:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
He's certainly on that, like Mount Rushmore for guys that have changed it.
- [23:24]
Israel Gutierrez
Come revisit this magical warriors ride. This is Dub Dynasty.
- [23:28]
Alencia Johnson
The Dubs dynasty is still very much alive.
- [23:32]
Israel Gutierrez
Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:44]
Alencia Johnson
And you also disappoint yourself every day. And so how are you, you know, holding yourself to this impossible standard, but also holding all these other people to that, you know, those impossible standards as well? And so I got to this place of separating standards and expectations of people and myself. I have high standards, but I've, like, lowered my expectations of people and in essence, that, like, we will disappoint one another. We will get in partnership, whatever it may be, and we're not going to, to your point, do things the same way that I would do them. I thought about this when I started. So I'm an entrepreneur and hiring people. I'm like, okay, Alencia, does the thing need to get done the same way you would do it, or does it just need to get done? And sometimes it just needs to get done. And then I think about, as I've been really on this journey of looking at, again, all relationships in my life and friendships especially, you know, we talk about love languages with intimate relationships, but sometimes we don't talk. Think about that and how that, you know, what that means for our friendships. We are always talking about, you know, how people, how our partner, intimate partners, should love us or show up for us and teaching them our love language. But the same with our friendships, right? Because a friend can be supporting you in the way that they feel is like, big support. And you're thinking, oh, no, I wanted you to, like, roll out the red carpet over here. And they're like, well, I cooked you a meal and, like, we're missing each other, right? And so I had to really? What do you mean?
- [25:12]
Charlamagne Tha God
Because, like, don't tell me how to show up for you. I did me. You know what I mean? And they say this is a thought that counts, right? But then it's not, right?
- [25:21]
Alencia Johnson
Well, yeah, but I think it also requires communication. Right. One of the things that I realized was a red flag of me is running from difficult conversation and when it comes to interpersonal relationships. But if you have that conversation with one another, if you can quiet out the noise and actually be present in the relationship, you'll realize, oh, your love language is different than my love language. But that doesn't mean we don't love each other. That doesn't mean we don't care for each other. And also, you may not have the capacity to show up for me in this moment. And it has nothing to do with you not wanting to be there. You got all these other things going on. The amount of calls I've had to make. Now the book has come out and it's been out, and we went through the book tour, and I'm like, oh, yeah, my bad for really not being there for like, six, seven months. But thank you for being my friend and showing up in the ways that you could and understanding that I didn't have the capacity. But it takes intentional communication, and it takes something that I don't know if you struggle with this, but as a Virgo, I struggle with this. Being really, really, really vulnerable about what you need.
- [26:19]
DJ Envy
I used to struggle with it. I don't struggle with it anymore.
- [26:21]
Alencia Johnson
Same.
- [26:21]
DJ Envy
I'm vulnerable so much. I don't even. It doesn't even bother me. The big problem I had was, is people showing up for you. That was my thing. And what Charlamagne said I would show up for everybody, but then when it was time for people to show up for me, a lot of times they didn't. And it would bother the shit out of me. And then I had to realize that everybody's not the same.
- [26:39]
Alencia Johnson
That's right.
- [26:40]
DJ Envy
Just because you do something a certain way, that doesn't mean necessarily Charlamagne's gonna do it or Lauren's gonna do it the same way. And once I let that go, I really don't. It just doesn't affect me the same anymore.
- [26:50]
Alencia Johnson
No. And that's beautiful. And it reminds me of. I'm a Delta at pledge in college, and my line name is Reciprocity. And my.
- [26:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
Are you supposed to say that publicly?
- [27:00]
Jess Hilarious
Yeah, you can say that.
- [27:01]
Alencia Johnson
My line, I'm close and stuff. Yeah. So I'm gonna disclose. But he didn't go to college.
- [27:06]
DJ Envy
Talking about, are you supposed they so.
- [27:08]
Charlamagne Tha God
Secretive about everything else?
- [27:10]
Alencia Johnson
We are. We are. Trust me. We train to know what's secret, what's not.
- [27:13]
Charlamagne Tha God
But.
- [27:13]
Alencia Johnson
So my line name is Reciprocity. And my big sister who gave me that line name, she knew I was like, reciprocity. Like the word out of that Lauryn Hill song. Right? Like, what are you talking about? And she's like, no, you give, give, give so much, and you expect for people to show up the same way that you do. And she's like, that is a struggle of yours, and it's going to continue to be a struggle of yours.
- [27:33]
DJ Envy
And.
- [27:34]
Alencia Johnson
And she was right. It's this thing that we're talking about. And again, it wasn't until later in life, this point in life that I'm in right now, to like, remove kind of those expectations of people and just like, let us exist and love one another. Because I've even found, too, there's a chapter in here called the Trailblazer Conundrum. It talks about not isolating yourself, even though you're blazing trails. There are so many people in our lives who want to show up for us who don't even know how to. They may not have the, I don't know, the business acumen to help us with something. The Money, the resources. But in their small ways, it's actually really important. And so giving people the opportunity to show up for you in the way that makes sense for them is very powerful, too.
- [28:16]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know, I want to talk to you about the urgency of now chapter and the disruption of community, because that is what people always get mad about when it comes to Democrats. Their lack of. Of urgency. They don't have a sense of urgency. I would, I would go so far as to say their lack of urgency is what has us in this situation right now.
- [28:33]
Alencia Johnson
I would agree with that. So I, I would agree with that.
- [28:37]
Charlamagne Tha God
Why don't they have no sense of urgency?
- [28:39]
Alencia Johnson
Well, I would agree with that. And the decision makers in the power. Because I don't want to erase some people that I talk about in the book. And who wrote a beautiful endorsement for the book, Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley. Someone who was like, I'm bucking the system and I'm gonna challenge this incumbent. And there are a lot of those. I mean, you. You've seen aoc, You've seen. There's so many folks there, state representatives who do that as well. This whole notion of decorum and order, it is the reason we are where we are. And this is the time to be honest for the new wave and the new thought that is coming in the party and some of which is in the party, to challenge the status quo.
- [29:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
How do we know it's not too late?
- [29:24]
Alencia Johnson
Wow.
- [29:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
You're already talking about doing a third term.
- [29:27]
Alencia Johnson
You know what I'm saying?
- [29:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
Once we get to that part of the conversation and it's normalized, maybe we. Too late.
- [29:33]
Alencia Johnson
So if it's. But if it's. If we have that mentality that's too late, then people are gonna be sitting there not doing anything at all.
- [29:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's true.
- [29:38]
Jess Hilarious
Is it too late that it's too late, or is it just not loud enough? Cause all the people you named, it's like, you can point to those people, but like, there. It's like, that's a handful of people.
- [29:46]
Alencia Johnson
It is a handful of people, but they're also. So, I mean, here's the thing. You all are in media. You know, I'm on cable news. I will be on a show. And for an hour, all we're doing is talking about Donald Trump. And I'm like, there's over 400 members in the House of Representatives. There's 100 senators, there's 50 governors. There's so many other people that we can talk about, which is.
- [30:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
They don't bring Them numbers and ratings.
- [30:05]
Alencia Johnson
They don't bring those numbers and they don't bring those ratings. And that is the self accountability on us to be paying attention to a lot of those people. The other thing that I'm so much more focused on and some of my journalist friends and I get into this disagreement, I don't really talk to people who voted for Donald Trump. That's not, I don't need to talk to them because if we look at the last election, 90 million eligible voters did not vote. That's a whole lot of people that we can reach to understand that they actually have power to change the system. In the book I talk about the labor movement and how unions are incredibly empower, incredibly powerful. That is a way that we can overthrow these companies that are run by these billionaires who are out of touch. The people power. And that's the thing that I'm focused on right now. It's the people power. And we've conceded our power to these people that we've elected, not realizing that I pay taxes, so that means I pay your salary and you work for me. If people power wasn't so imperative, why did all these elected officials shut down those town halls? Because they didn't want to hear from their constituents. Because those loud voices are disruptive. And so look, the Democrats got a lot to reckon with. It's the reason why I work for myself so I can actually challenge them from the outside. Because I think it is extremely, it's not just that it's too late, but it is harmful to communities who are dying because of what is happening. That's harmful to communities who have been fighting against these systems. And yet at the same time, they are the ones that folks constantly look to to create the solutions. And so until the Democratic Party, just as much as we understand that, you know, Republicans subscribe to white supremacy and the Democratic Party, there are folks that need to understand that their positions are privileged, that they need to get up out of their seats. A real leader understands when they are in the way of progress. And I think until we really reckon with that, we're going to continue to see this fighting and we will continue to lose in ways that quite frankly are killing so many of our communities.
- [32:13]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I think you should talk to people who voted for Trump. And the reason I think you should is because then you'll understand the why. And I think that's where Democrats just simply fail. Yes, they didn't know, they couldn't understand the why. It's like, oh, you, how could you vote for The. Did you actually have a conversation with them to see how. Because a lot of it does just have to do with a lot of policies that they just integrated.
- [32:33]
Alencia Johnson
That's true. And let me. Let me clarify that. There's a. There are a lot of people with privilege and understanding exactly why they voted for Donald Trump, which is centered around race, that I do not like to engage with. But to your point, if I think about where I grew up, if I think about people who I may not talk to anymore, but high school, college, whatever it may be, they probably did vote for Donald Trump, for whatever reason it may be. And so what is the conversation? Is it the economy? But then continue to ask all those questions. Is it because you believe this trope that other people are taking your jobs, but the reality is it's these billionaires not paying you a fair wage. Like, what is it? I think it is important. But my frustration is what happens every cycle of, well, we need to moderate Democrats, need to moderate our positions and placate to these phantom swing voters that are going to vote for a black woman, when that's actually. Again, back to my 90 million. We're over here trying to get these few hundred thousand, but there's all of these people left untouched.
- [33:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
Flip the book over, Alencia.
- [33:35]
Alencia Johnson
I'm flipping the book. I can't flip the table over. I'm flipping my book over. So. Yes, yes. And thank you for clarifying that. I could expound upon that because I don't want to go viral. And it's like, she don't talk to people and she don't know Trump.
- [33:47]
Jess Hilarious
What about your. Because I know you did a lot of work with Planned Parenthood, and now a lot of what you were doing is they ain't supporting that.
- [33:54]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:55]
Jess Hilarious
So when you do all this work, you stop taking the rest to fight, to make, to break this ground. And then you see this new administration come in who is completely against it, and it's stripping all of that. You feel defeated or like, what happens now? Because, yeah, you're not there anymore.
- [34:08]
Alencia Johnson
No, I mean, and then they have the audacity to talk about. They want to put policies in place for people to have more babies and give people $5,000. I'm like, but y'all voted against the child tax credit. So what's interesting about working at Planned Parenthood? I worked there for six years at the national office. And talk about disruptive, being the daughter of a pastor, a lover of Jesus and advocating for abortion rights. People are like, how do you reconcile that? I was Like, I just exist. Literally, I just exist. And the teachings of Jesus, the red text in the Bible tells me a lot of ways in which I should show up in the world. When I look at when I was working at Planned Parenthood, President Obama was still in office, and I was like, oh, we good? You know, he believes in reproductive freedom. This is great. And they're like, oh, no. Let's look at these state policies and these states that are overturning the right to access to abortion, and not only access to abortion, but sex education, contraception, all of these things. And just gutting healthcare systems and health centers that are helping people who have nowhere else to go. When I look at what's happening now at the federal level, and the Trump administration is literally going after organizations like Planned Parenthood, it reminds me that these people do not care about people at the margins. They do not care about low income folks who have nowhere else to go. And if you actually wanted people to have more children in this country, you would, you would actually support and bolster the healthcare system instead of gutting it. Last week was Black Maternal Health Week, and black maternal mortality is on the rise. Maternal mortality across the country, across demographics is on the rise. And the wealthiest nation. And so it's challenging, it's frustrating. There's this Alice Walker quote I put at the beginning of the book, and I'm paraphrasing it. You have to keep a healthy soul in the face of constant oppression, which reminds you that at the end of the day, there's going to continuously be something that you're fighting for. So how do you maintain your spirit in order to keep going? And that is through the joy and the rest. And all of those things can coexist together. While you're also still fighting for the ability to have agency over my body. The one thing I will say of everything being burned down, from abortion, access to everything that's happening in our country, it gives us the opportunity to build something better and something new. I don't want to rebuild the old because the old was clearly, it was able to be dismantled. I actually now want to be able to imagine something even better that's actually going to work. And how do we build that? And that's actually what gets me up at night. I'm like, I'm not fighting these people to rebuild what didn't work. I have this vision that excites me to build something even better even on the days that are hard.
- [36:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
I agree with that. But then when I hear you say that, you know, Barack Obama was in the White House and you big on Planned Parenthood. He had the opportunity to codify Roe v. Wade.
- [36:58]
Alencia Johnson
He did.
- [36:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
He had the White House, the Senate, the House of Representatives for two years. He could have passed it in the federal law, any campaign that he would. So it's just like, I see stuff like that and I'm like, why do we believe these people again?
- [37:12]
Alencia Johnson
Well, so I hear that I. Which is also why I think the work to shift culture is so imperative. If we think about President Biden, he actually is very, I would say, moderate in his position around reproductive freedom. And yet he had to champion issues that quite frankly, if culturally and society and as us as a collective, we're not pushing and challenging people to actually do something about these, he wouldn't have. Right. And so that's where culture, work is so important. That's where shifting how we think, how we understand things as a society is so important. But it's also how we show up and tell people, if you're not going to hold true to your campaign promise, we are not going to support you again. And so I love President Obama. Listen, if Donald Trump runs for a third term, Obama should run for a third term.
- [38:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Alencia, you know that if Trump runs for a third term, it'll be just like in Russia. It's all for show the truth. He will win.
- [38:10]
Alencia Johnson
Sure, right. I'm saying this in that, listen, I love President Obama and yet I have critique and that is one of my critiques. Right. And when we had this super majority and could have codified a lot of these issues, we should have done it. But that doesn't make me not participate. Right. And that doesn't make me sit out and say I'm never gonna work for a presidential candidate ever again, even if I disagree with them. Because there's a lot of, I don't agree with 100% of the things that any of the people that I work with are, but there's some fundamental things that for me that are non negotiable. And if I'm not at the table, if our friend Stephanie's not at the table, if you've had Ashley Allison here, we're not at the table. We can't push these candidates further along and these elected officials further along.
- [38:54]
Charlamagne Tha God
I guess it's just heartbreaking for me because it's like, yes, when they overturned Roe v. Wade, it was like, damn, they overturned Roe v. Wade. But then when you see people like President Obama speak out against that, I'm like, but you had the ability to codify Roe v. Wade, you could have made it actual federal legislation.
- [39:10]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. I mean, the hard part about the abortion conversation is how the right has actually used religion, has made it a religious argument when, like, that's actually not in the text. And the reality is the right and conservatives were losing on. They lost on segregation. And so they said, oh, we need some. Well, we can't continue with this race thing. Now we're gonna have to go over here to this woman thing, and let's actually make abortion a political lightning rod. And so when people fundamentally understand that they can take away their personal beliefs and actually realize, oh, people's right to make decisions for their bodies is their own. And that has nothing to do with me. If a lot of people stayed out of each other's business, I think our politics would be a lot better.
- [39:53]
Charlamagne Tha God
Absolutely. And that's too simple even. You know, I'm going back to the urgency. And now when people ask us now, they, like, they'll tell us all of these different things that Trump is doing every single day, and they're like, what is. What do you think of that? And I'm like, I don't know what to think. Because I'm like, what am I even supposed to do? Because it always seems like the urgency is put on we the people.
- [40:14]
Alencia Johnson
Right.
- [40:14]
Charlamagne Tha God
But then when these elected officials that we voted for from 2020 to 2024, when they were in the White House, they didn't govern with a sense of urgency. That's what always gets me about Democrats, whenever it's election time. It's a sense of urgency. It's on y'all. It's a threat to democracy, and, you know, you're gonna lose all your rights and everything else, but you don't govern like that when you get in office.
- [40:32]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. You know, it is frustrating, I will say. I don't pay attention to what that man is doing all day, every day, because then I'll just sit in this place where I'm immobile. Right. But I do look for small pockets of hope. And to your point, it does end up being us that have to save our own communities. But, like, I think that's in general, a nature of who we are as a people, and that is community. I mean, look at, you know, our friends who started State of the People, which I was a part of. You all broadcast it, and now it's going. Now there's a whole tour shout out to Angela Rai and Joy Reid and so many folks who are just building something beautiful, reminding us of our power as community. And I think out of that births people who will govern with urgency of now. So I write about Ayanna Pressley in the book, but I also write about Shirley Chisholm, who was just fed up and was like, oh, I'm going to actually be the one that changes. You know, David Hogg, who was the vice chair of the DNC but was a survivor of the Parkland shooting, had done all of this activism, and now he's challenging. He's getting a lot of heat.
- [41:44]
Charlamagne Tha God
That man is.
- [41:45]
Alencia Johnson
He's getting a lot of heat.
- [41:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
I have said that. I said that two months ago. Anybody who's not willing to fight in the Democratic Party should be primary. Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer, y'all should resign. If y'all not the people that can meet this moment. I really feel that way. And anybody else in the Democratic Party who's not willing to fight should be primaried. I am all for what David Hawke is doing. I said that months ago.
- [42:06]
Alencia Johnson
And listen, you know, there are some people who disagree with it, but he said looks and change has. We can't just keep talking about change. You got to actually go after it. And whether or not you believe in what he's doing, whether or not you believe that there needs to be new leadership, whatever it is, like, change doesn't just happen when we sit around and wish for it. We actually have to do something about it. And sometimes in order to get these folks to operate with some urgency, you got to put some pressure and some heat under them.
- [42:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's why everybody in the party should have had a copy of this book. Flip your. Flip the table a long way.
- [42:38]
Jess Hilarious
I don't know if the earth, if it's. If they going to do it, though.
- [42:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
They have no choice now.
- [42:42]
Jess Hilarious
They never. We never don't have. When do we ever have a choice?
- [42:45]
Charlamagne Tha God
No, there's really no choice now.
- [42:47]
Jess Hilarious
I feel like it's always fight or flight. Like, do what you got to do to get out of the situation for us. Different I could be, but it. I feel like it is different, but I don't feel like anything has changed about the way that people are handling it. I don't really feel the sense of urgency. There was an interview that you talked about dei. You're like, these companies are folding. It was a Glamour magazine and you said, these companies are folding. They don't understand that the proximity to the president isn't power. Power is showing him that he needs you. People are not gonna do that. Everything that we're talking about, people just don't do it.
- [43:16]
Alencia Johnson
You know, But I think what I hear you, and I do have to remind us all that this man has only he hasn't even been in office 100 days.
- [43:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
Lord have mercy.
- [43:26]
Alencia Johnson
But because we are in such an information overload forever, it does. Like, you open Instagram and I'm being retro. I want to go to. And then I'm seeing what this man is doing in the White House, right? So, like, we're in this information overload, and yet. And at the same time, I think about at the State of the Union, shout out to Congressman Green and y'all had him up here. And I was like, oh, my gosh, every single Democrat should have gotten up right after him and disrupted the entire speech. Right? And then when, you know, Senator Booker did his filibuster, people were saying, yes, this is what we need more of. And now you're seeing more people in the streets. And I think people are. Some of our elected officials are understanding that there's more that they can do now. And then there are still going to be some who don't. And we have midterm elections and special elections. And I am all about getting people in office who are going to be effective and also us participating in that. If you. Whether you agree with them or disagree with them, if they represent you, you have the power and the right to show up and tell them what is working and what isn't working. And I want more of us to. I want our elected officials to be scared. I want our elected officials to be like, my constituents aren't going for this. Or my constituents told me I have to do this, and that's why I'm doing it.
- [44:42]
DJ Envy
Absolutely. Well, Flip the Tables is out right now.
- [44:46]
Charlamagne Tha God
Lyncia Johnson, the Everyday Disruptor's Guide to Finding Courage and Making Change. And this isn't a book, you know, just for politics. Who are into politics just in life. If you want to learn how to flip some damn tables like Jesus did.
- [44:58]
Alencia Johnson
Yes. More of that.
- [44:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah.
- [45:00]
Alencia Johnson
Like, can you imagine, like Jesus flipping over tables? I. I was angry.
- [45:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yes. I think you should. I think you should find a table to flip.
- [45:06]
Alencia Johnson
Listen, okay, That's a whole nother conversation for us to have.
- [45:09]
Jess Hilarious
That Jesus wine. No, that's it.
- [45:15]
DJ Envy
Lyncia Johnson. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.
- [45:18]
Carlos Miller
Wake that ass up early in the morning.
- [45:21]
Charlamagne Tha God
The Breakfast Club.