← The Breakfast Club
The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Debbie Allen Talks Her New Barbie Tribute Doll, DA Dance Academy, 'Fame', Mariah Carey, Kobe + More
00:37:43
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This is an I Heart Podcast.
- [00:04]
Smart Water Advertiser
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- [00:32]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless and if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should 1. It's $15 a month.
- [00:41]
Debbie Allen
2.
- [00:42]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Seriously, it's $15 a month.
- [00:44]
Debbie Allen
3.
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Mint Mobile Advertiser
No big contracts.
- [00:46]
Debbie Allen
4.
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Mint Mobile Advertiser
I use it.
- [00:47]
True Crime Podcast Narrator
5.
- [00:48]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
My mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [00:55]
Annabe Sofas Advertiser
Payment of $45 for 3 month plan $15 per month Equ customer offer first.
- [00:59]
Debbie Allen
3 months only, then full price plan.
- [01:00]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
Options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [01:01]
Johnny Knoxville
See mint mobile.com hello America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.
- [01:24]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Kind of like Robin Hood, except for the part where he steals from the rich and gives to the poor. I'm not that generous.
- [01:32]
Johnny Knoxville
It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing. They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.
- [01:45]
Debbie Allen
So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do?
- [01:48]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
That was dumb. People, do not follow my example.
- [01:53]
Johnny Knoxville
Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:05]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.
- [02:19]
Debbie Allen
America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.
- [02:31]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [02:45]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Hold up Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club.
- [02:51]
DJ Envy
Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlemagne, the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. Lorna Rose is here as well, and we got a special guest in the building.
- [03:01]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
A legendary, iconic guest.
- [03:03]
DJ Envy
The legend.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Some guests are special, some are legendary and iconic.
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DJ Envy
That's right. And we have the iconic. The legendary Ms. Debbie Allen.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Welcome.
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Debbie Allen
Thank you. Good morning.
- [03:13]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
How you feeling?
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Debbie Allen
I feel really good. I'm on New York time. I'm on New York air. I'm feeling good to be in New York. I, like. I miss this city. Every time I come, there's so much happening. Saturday morning, I woke up and there was this big protest outside the hotel. I heard all this noise, and I looked down and there was like, half a million people in Times Square. And then I went to new restaurants and saw new shows. Two new shows. I love New York.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Absolutely.
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Debbie Allen
Yeah.
- [03:47]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Condolences, too, on the loss of your mother.
- [03:50]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, absolutely. So much. I appreciate that.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Absolutely. And I was. I was thinking about you when you was coming in, man, because, you know, you've built such a legacy, you know, Broadway, television, and film. When you think about the word legacy now, does it mean what you've done or who you've helped do it after you.
- [04:08]
Debbie Allen
Oh, well, you know what? I would have to say who I'm helping, because that's real legacy. You know, I have so many hundreds of kids that I'm educating at the dance school and across around the world with the. You know, the Internet has allowed us to be international. In a blink of a, you know, we can have these IG classes. Yeah. Legacy, I think, has to do with the future and what seed you're planting, what path you have lit that helps people find their way.
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DJ Envy
When you started dancing and you got into drama, did you know that that was gonna be your career? Did you know that? Was that? Cause even to this day, you know, I have kids. I was telling you that dance. And I always think to myself, well, what does dance take them to? But then when I look at your career, I'm like, there's no. There's so many possibilities.
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Debbie Allen
Yeah.
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DJ Envy
Did you ever think that that was going to be a career?
- [05:03]
Debbie Allen
I was determined at 4 years old that that was going to be my career. Because we were watching television, and we would watch musicals, would come on every Saturday morning, and I so wanted to replace that Shirley Temple, honey. I wanted that to be me going up and down those steps with Bill Robinson and all those glorious musical films. I saw myself in that world and Then it was a challenge to get the training in the segregated south where I grew up. But mom was always very resourceful, and she found ways. And, yeah, I think children can see themselves. And this is why you have to make it possible for them by letting them see other things. I remember when mom wouldn't let me go to the circus because she wanted me to go and see this East Indian dance company. And I was kicking and screaming. I wanted to see those clowns and those lions. But when I saw that dance company, I saw a whole nother language of dance that I didn't know or had not seen. I was probably 8 years old. But this is why we have to expose our children to more, which is why right now we need more. More. More education, more cultural programs for children, arts programs. And just take them on those field trips, take them to see art exhibits, take them to see dance concerts or music concerts or, you know, little plays at the Y. Anything that is outside of the box of the video games and television. Mom used to make us think that the television was broke, so we would take our butts outside.
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DJ Envy
That's what makes it so important. The Debbie Allen Dance Academy, right?
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Debbie Allen
Yeah. Yeah.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
25 years. Congratulations.
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DJ Envy
25 years.
- [06:51]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Congratulations.
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Debbie Allen
Quite a landmark.
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DJ Envy
Let's talk about what that means. Cause as I was saying, when I'm out there on the road with my daughters, a lot of times we don't see too many people that look like us.
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Debbie Allen
Yeah.
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DJ Envy
And a lot of that is not because we can't dance. It's because we can't afford it. The traveling, the costumes, the privates, It's a lot. And I didn't realize until I jumped in there. My wife said, we need another check. I'm like, another check? I know, but it's so expensive. So talk about the importance of opening that school.
- [07:20]
Debbie Allen
Well, the Debbie Allen Dance Academy is in cultural oasis that now has a middle school, has programs for boys, elders, cancer patients, but for young people, it is designed to be an open door for whoever it is that has the spirit of the dance. And come through that door and find the class, and I will get a program for you. I basically said no to competitions. I've been asked year after year after year. And I don't do them because I want children to compete with themselves. I want them to be in the classroom. I want them to be in the dance studio and see where are. Where am I? Did I do that turn? Can I balance? Can I do the passe? Can I, you know, what is it that I'm learning? Can I do that? Tap break? And I think it's great. Like you say, the competition world is a great experience. It teaches children performance and a lot of things and does cost a lot of money. And so it would be not possible for so many of us. It's just not possible. So where I'm living, I am raising money every minute of my waking life to give more opportunity to the kids. I mean, right now, it's very difficult with all the foolishness that's going on in Washington. Foolishness is going on with the nonprofit world. I mean, you. You can't even write a grant now and say you're focused on brown and black children. You can't even say that. You can't say you're dealing with disabled. I mean, there's so many. This is ridiculous. So it means that we're going to just become more grassroots, the way we were in the 50s, honey, because that's what it was. You have to get your community together. And there's a big community of diverse people who want to see the arts prevail and programs prevail, because that's the future. What? The creativity that it takes to create a ballet like Revelations is the same creativity that will cure cancer. It's the same part of your brain that we are developing creativity. You have to think outside the box to figure these things out and to come to some, you know, understanding or level of accomplishments. And to me, creativity is the closest you can be to God, is to be creative. So the Debbie Allen Dance Academy is a real purpose in my life and my husband Norman Nixon's life, my daughter's life, my son, the whole community. We have a community of parents and people who love us and nationwide because we have to, you know, throw that tin cup out there everywhere. I mean, if I could, say a million people just send me $2, it would help us get through a whole year of programming and opportunity. We have a program called. We have a program called Sons of Dada, and that's for the boys. I have more boys in my school than any school, I bet, in America. I don't make them wear the tights. They can come to ballet class in their shorts or sweatpants, but they are there. I mean, I got 30 boys, and there's a program, Sons and Daughter, that offers a scholarship for them. All they have to do is say, I want. Raise their hand. I want to come, and then they're there. David Coburn has been very supportive of this program, but it needs to expand. I just don't have enough hours in the day to do all that I know I could do. And I just have to keep working. And I have a great team that is helping me.
- [11:05]
DJ Envy
And while we're here, just tell them how they can donate since. Because people listen right now and you're talking about the school. If somebody wants to donate that $2, like you said, a million people, how can they donate?
- [11:14]
Debbie Allen
Well, if you go on the Debbie allendanceacademy.com you'll see there's a program called Rhythm of Giving. Or you can just see how to get in touch with Dina Bartella or just how to drop through, you know, PayPal or what you might want to do.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
You know, it's interesting. You've been directing and choreographing for decades. How do you keep your art evolving when the culture itself always keeps shifting so fast?
- [11:41]
Debbie Allen
Well, that's what's exciting because I'm with these young people all the time and there's a new language every, you know, couple of years that you have to, you know, I mean, the Afro beat right now is everything. I was. I. I have been Mariah Carey's creative director many times. And last year when I worked with Jenna Tompkins to do her show, I introduced the style of dance, the Afrobeat, into the choreography. And it was amazing to do joy to the world with that style of dance. The dancers were on a respirator child with the first number because that Afro beat is serious fast. Yeah, it's fast, but it takes a lot of energy to do it. And they loved it. So that's what's beautiful. The nature of the universe has changed, and anybody that doesn't understand that, well, sorry, nail em again.
- [12:40]
Podcast Host
What do you teach or how do you teach the artists you work with? Like a Mariah Carey or even like Ashanti, You've been working with her for some time, too, about longevity and as things change, because things will change. Like, how do you teach them how to, you know, relevance and impact? Like, what the career you have?
- [12:55]
Debbie Allen
Well, I don't think I have to teach Mariah Carey anything about longevity. I mean, she's been the songbird for so long and she's got a new album out, and she is one of these creative geniuses who writes her music. And I've never gone into a production where she didn't have an idea about what she thinks it is. I mean, so I don't know if that's. I mean, you're asking me about.
- [13:23]
Podcast Host
I guess it's like the mentorship, because even the way that people look at you and how you handle just anything you deal with. And throughout your career, there's a lot coming your way because of who you are. Mariah Carey has a lot coming her way every day. I guess I'm asking what the mentorship between you and these women or men that you're working with that are these big stars, what does that look like?
- [13:43]
Debbie Allen
It's very personal. It's very personal. I think part of what I bring wherever I'm working is a motherhood embrace, push, knowledge, idea. I mean, I just said a lot of things that I don't know if you got all that, but when people work with me, they know that I come with a huge experience in many things, and sometimes it's very intimidating to people. I've had some battles that you would be surprised, and I think it has a lot to do with my expertise and ability. I'm executive producing director of Grey's Anatomy. We're in season 22. We, you know, Shonda Rhimes put me there to be an integral part of keeping that show energetic and moving. And I hire all the directors. I hire new directors. Phylicia Rashad just became a director on Grey's Anatomy.
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Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
You heard about her. She wanted becoming director.
- [14:52]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, she's a new one. Yeah, we kind of like her. But there to work with incredible showrunner make who? You know, I read every outline. I'm part of the casting, you know, and I've worked with DPs who are brilliant. I produced the movie Amistad with Steven Spielberg, which will always be a big, big accomplishment for all of us. It's not just me. For all of us. To get that movie made, you'd be hard pressed to do it today, the way things are going. But I have such a wealth of experience. That is a big thing that I bring. So I see things very quickly. Yes, I can make decisions very quickly. You know, I'm here doing auditions for Joe Turner's Coming Gone, and I'm seeing such wonderful new talent that I had not known before. But even in that process, I can see immediately this one has the potential. This one is talented, but not right for this part. I mean, it's just experience.
- [16:01]
Smart Water Advertiser
Yeah.
- [16:02]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
I love people who got intention, you know, you said at 4 years old you knew you wanted to do dance.
- [16:07]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, I did.
- [16:08]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
How did that lead to something like fame?
- [16:11]
Debbie Allen
Fame, yeah. Well, because I stayed the course and I went and studied and did the work. I've been taking dance class my whole life. I was here at the New York School of Ballet Richard Thomas, John Boy on the Waltons. His dad and mom had the best ballet school here in New York, the New York School of Ballet. And I was like a little, you know, urchin trucking around the streets and bought my dance card. And in my class, I'd look up and Rudolf Nureyev would be in the class, or Mikhail Baryshnikov would be in the class. Margot Fontaine. These are icons in the world of ballet. And then right across town, there's Alvin Aey.
- [16:57]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Wow.
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Debbie Allen
Alvin Ailey. You know, you. I don't know. I think my. My effort has proven successful because I've always done the work. When you come up in the dance world, it's like being an athlete. Yeah. That's why Kobe Bryant and I were friends. He loved dance, and we had a very good relationship. You train, train, train, train, train. You can't shoot enough, you can't practice enough, you know, jump shots, whatever their practice, you know, those drills that they do to stay in shape, you have to do the work. And this is something young people really need right now to understand that you don't get to get there and stay if you haven't done the work. Misty Copeland. Oh, my God. Misty Copeland. You know, she's retiring tomorrow night from the American Ballet Theater. I will be on stage with her. She invited me to be on stage with her. But this is not an ending, but a beginning of what else she's going to do. Yeah, but she trained, trained, trained, trained, trained. You know, I've had parents come in. Your daughters and dance. And I've had parents say, but my daughter, you know, she just. Ms. Allen, she just feels like, you know, she's doing the same thing all the time. I said, because she needs to. Yeah, she has to learn how to point that foot turn out. I say, damn it.
- [18:26]
DJ Envy
Now, you said you and Kobe were friends. How did y' all get tight? How did y' all get so cool?
- [18:30]
Debbie Allen
Well, Kobe actually grew up in Italy. Fame was one of the biggest shows internationally. Italy. I Still Can't Walk down the Street. It was that popular. So I came to a Laker game, and he was on the court, and he looked at me and he was like. And I was like. I'm looking at him like, oh, wow. And then that admiration was there. And then years later, he actually was interested in learning how to tap dance.
- [19:00]
DJ Envy
Really?
- [19:00]
Debbie Allen
Wow.
- [19:01]
DJ Envy
Did you teach them?
- [19:02]
Debbie Allen
Well, we didn't get to that, but we were going to get to that. And it was Michael Jackson's death that really kind of brought us closer because Michael was somebody that I was very close to. And I was talking about Michael on television and saying he was he practiced practice. I said he was like Kobe Bryant. I said that in an interview. And then Kobe called me, said, debbie, Michael and I were friends. I was like, what? He and Michael had become friends. And so we started talking and he was writing these incredible books and we were making plans to turn one of his books into the most incredible Broadway show you've ever we were making plans he he he had all the days.
- [19:51]
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- [20:38]
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- [21:39]
True Crime Podcast Narrator
In the new podcast Helen Heaven, two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one will end up dead, the other tried for murder. Not once. People went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature Reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality.
- [22:19]
DJ Envy
They lose it. They actually lose it.
- [22:21]
Debbie Allen
They sort of went nuts.
- [22:24]
True Crime Podcast Narrator
Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [22:40]
Debbie Allen
All I know is what I've been told. And that to half truth is a whole lie.
- [22:45]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.
- [23:01]
Debbie Allen
I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.
- [23:04]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.
- [23:13]
Debbie Allen
Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.
- [23:16]
Johnny Knoxville
Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.
- [23:19]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.
- [23:30]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.
- [23:33]
Debbie Allen
Burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.
- [23:35]
Smart Water Advertiser
They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.
- [23:39]
Debbie Allen
They made me say that I poured.
- [23:40]
Smart Water Advertiser
Gas on her.
- [23:43]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.
- [23:54]
Debbie Allen
America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.
- [24:03]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.
- [24:25]
Debbie Allen
Universe that he was creating with animators and composers. And he brought me in because he respected what I do and what we could do together. And when we were building the Debbie Allen Dance Academy, which is now the Rhimes Performing Arts center, because Shonda Rhimes gifted us the building, which was amazing. Amazing. But we had to raise a lot of money to build it. And so we took a meeting and Kobe was the first one. He was. He put a million dollars towards building the Debbie Allen Dance Academy.
- [25:02]
DJ Envy
Wow.
- [25:02]
Debbie Allen
And now we have a wall called the Kobe Bryant Wall of Light that has all the donors and his name at the top of that. And so we had a lot of plans. And he loved dance, you know, being an athlete to be a dancer. So Kobe Bryant, Wallace Annenberg, Barry Gordy, Shonda Rhimes The Ford foundation, they've been our big angels.
- [25:30]
Podcast Host
Outside of the discipline that you just talked about and doing the work what else did your role as Lydia and Fame teach you that, like, served you so well for the rest of your career?
- [25:41]
Debbie Allen
Well, I actually got an opportunity to create these dances. And as a child, I was watching them in the movies. I was watching the movie. Now I was able to be in charge of what the camera was doing. And I had all of these ideas from when I was 4 years old. And so on Fame, I worked with one of the old Jacks, Bill Spencer. He had been the A camera operator on all those big MGM musicals. And he used to say, kid, we can't do this, we can't do that. I said, why, Bill? And then if he couldn't give me an answer, then he would go figure it out. So we became friends. So Fame was like going to graduate school. It was like getting a PhD in directing because it was new. Nobody was there to tell us or to tell me how to make this work. Week to week to week. I had to figure it out. And then one day he took me in the archives of MGM because I used to write dance notes so people would understand where we. It would say the music, how long it is, what the action was, what the choreograph, what the camera shot is. He took me in the archives of the MGM musicals from back in the day and showed me that's what they did too. And nobody taught me it was just a way to communicate. So Fame really set me up to do everything that I'm doing right now, all the way.
- [27:13]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
And now I've heard you say dance is storytelling with the body.
- [27:17]
Debbie Allen
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Damn. Expound on that a little bit.
- [27:19]
Debbie Allen
Well, you know, in the dance world, you don't have words. You're not singing. You are, through your physical being, expressing what is the story. You're expressing love. You're expressing joy, anger. It's. I think the most ancient of all art forms is dance. Because when you look at ancient civilizations before they could write or could know the language they were stamping on the ground for rain, for harvest, birth, movement that proclaiming your existence on this earth, that dance. And it goes back to Mother Africa where we were stamping on that ground. I mean, that's the beginning. That's the beginning. That's the one. That's what Jason Samuel Smith. It's the one, yeah.
- [28:17]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
So is it about the movement of the perfection? They always tell me I ain't got no rhythm, but I feel it.
- [28:24]
True Crime Podcast Narrator
Do it again.
- [28:26]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
What is it? It's a movement of perfection. What is it?
- [28:30]
Debbie Allen
All of that, but it's that spirit. See, the spirit in you is what makes you move like that. That is something that's in your blood memory. That's your DNA speaking. That's the universe telling you what you already know. It's that call and response. Yeah, it's there. We all have it. We all have it.
- [28:52]
DJ Envy
Who was the most difficult person to teach how to dance? That was like, they just don't have.
- [28:56]
Debbie Allen
It now, you know, I can't say people's names. You know, that would be so wrong.
- [29:01]
DJ Envy
Okay, but let's change it. Who was the hardest to teach because they just were so good and needed to be pushed to the next level, then.
- [29:08]
Debbie Allen
Oh, I've had students, some that you might not know. Are you talking about people that I work with professionally?
- [29:16]
DJ Envy
Yes.
- [29:16]
Debbie Allen
Well, let me put it this way. I worked with Sammy Davis Jr. He did a special with me. I've never seen anybody like him. I could show him something one time, and he did it. He was incredible. So it was difficult to do much because he'd be like, okay, kid, what else you got? All right, Sammy, I'm done now. I think I'm good. It was a challenge for me to work with him.
- [29:48]
DJ Envy
Wow.
- [29:48]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
He don't get discussed enough. I don't feel like Sammy gets discussed enough.
- [29:52]
Debbie Allen
You know, there's an effort to do plays and movies about him. I know Lena Waithe has one she's working on, and I'm excited that she's thinking about making it into a show. I did a. We were working on a Broadway show called Sammy with the original people that did all his music and everything. And I did a workshop of this years ago. This might have been. Oh, my God. It had to be almost 20 years ago. And in that workshop, everybody came because it was about Sammy. We raised a million dollars that day to do the show, and it didn't go forward because the people that were in charge of the script just couldn't understand that we needed to whittle it down. It was. You know, when you have a life story that's that full. I mean, Josephine Baker. It was a miniseries.
- [30:45]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Yeah.
- [30:45]
Debbie Allen
Or either. You have to figure out what part of their life are you going to tell? Because I worked with Bob Fosse in Sweet Charity, and he told me, and I believed him. And I learned that from him. Kid, if anything, over three hours is too long. Too long, baby. You know? But Sammy is someone that. He's one of the most legendary and incredible artists to ever step on a stage as a child. You can look at that film of him when he's five. It exists. He was a dear man who had quite a. Quite a struggle. Quite a struggle in his lifetime. Yeah.
- [31:28]
Smart Water Advertiser
Barbie is honoring you with your own tribute doll. What went through your mind when you first got that call? I'm assuming that you're getting your own Barbie doll.
- [31:38]
Debbie Allen
I know. It was like getting an Oscar. It was like, you know, because I grew up in Texas and we didn't have any dolls that looked like us at all. And I was big on playing with my dolls. And I knew about the Barbie tribute collection. And I was so excited when they made Shonda Rhimes the Barbie doll. And I was just loving that. And Misty Copeland. But then when they called to say they wanted to make me one, I just was so touched because I knew this had more to do with young people than anybody. Although all of my older friends are buying them up. Child, that's buying them up. But the kids. I showed this doll to some of the students in my school. I actually videotaped it. It was so precious. They were so proud of it. They all wanted it. It looks like them. Somebody that looks like them that is dancing. That's, you know. And so we worked on what she was gonna look like and how she was gonna dress. And I said, let's dress her like Fame.
- [32:44]
Smart Water Advertiser
Cause that's your idea. Amazing.
- [32:46]
Debbie Allen
Let's do Fame. And I used to wear these pants. Designer GM Giovanni. Giovanni demura. I don't know where he is now, but I had those pants in every color. I went around the world and I'm just excited about it. And everybody's excited about this garbage. Yeah. It puts me in a one more realm of history. That is very humbling.
- [33:18]
Smart Water Advertiser
Yeah.
- [33:19]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Another image of black excellence. Really?
- [33:20]
Smart Water Advertiser
That's right.
- [33:22]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
You've created a lot of them. So I'll be wondering, what's your measure for authentic representation today?
- [33:29]
Debbie Allen
You know, I don't know if I ever measure it. I experience it, and it speaks to me or it doesn't. I mean, that movie centers.
- [33:39]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Absolutely.
- [33:42]
Debbie Allen
Ooh. It said so many things. But when Ryan Coogler took that dance floor and went in and out of time, you know, I wanted to go and be that boy's mama for a moment. I wanted to go over there and just hug him. I said, get over here. Come over here.
- [34:03]
DJ Envy
Yes.
- [34:04]
Debbie Allen
He honored all of us doing that. That was breathtaking. So it's coming in different waves. Or when I see the artwork of the kids that I see or, you know, black excellence is something that's on the rise, and it's just going to get stronger now. The challenges we have is going to make us stronger, not going to shut us down.
- [34:29]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
I agree. I have a. I have a. A strange sense of optimism about all of this. I do. I really do.
- [34:35]
Debbie Allen
Yeah. I think you're right that you're here, that you all are here and you are speaking every day. You have millions of people, millions of people's attention. You have a platform to plow through a lot of bs, and you do on a daily basis. And so we are grateful that you are here and you're going to be here.
- [34:57]
DJ Envy
I gotta ask, you know, this weekend, this week coming up is Homecoming week, right? A Different World was the reason why I went to hbcu. I got to see it. I seen what it was. So I have to ask.
- [35:07]
Smart Water Advertiser
She is not going to teach you a 1212 to go do at the home.
- [35:10]
DJ Envy
Different World based off of what college? Based off of what college?
- [35:16]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Now, this is.
- [35:16]
DJ Envy
Every HBCU talks about it.
- [35:18]
Debbie Allen
Okay? So let me say this. A Different world existed for a year before I got there. And I was brought in by the creative, the executives to come and see what was wrong and fix it. And I did. Because I had that HBCU experience, which none of the people there had. I went to Howard University.
- [35:40]
DJ Envy
Sorry.
- [35:41]
Debbie Allen
And Howard University, I'm sorry for both of y'.
- [35:43]
Podcast Host
All, because Delaware State University is where it's at.
- [35:46]
DJ Envy
Sorry.
- [35:48]
Debbie Allen
Well, Hampton is great, but, you know, Howard, we were the school. The first school to take over the A building. The school. Because we were demanding black studies. We pulled up the gate and threw it on the dean's desk. Ewart Brown led us. I had my big Afro child, and I was all up in there, all up in it. Two months later, you know, we didn't think about dying or nothing like that. Parents were sending us orange juice and boiled eggs and begging us to come out. We're going to come out when we get where we want. Then what? How many months later, Kent State did that and four kids were killed by the National Guard. What the hell? We knew. Say It Loud Black and I'm Proud was our anthem. We had Mary Makeba coming. We had Stokely Carmichael named them. They all came to Howard. We were in Washington, D.C.
- [36:52]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Wow.
- [36:54]
Debbie Allen
So coming into a different world, we could no longer do shows about people walking around holding eggs. We had to do shows that were culturally relevant, socially responsible, and still a lot of fun. And we did that.
- [37:13]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
That.
- [37:13]
Debbie Allen
And so Susan fails Heel I. She is one of the most incredible writers on this planet. She was the showrunner for the real bulk of all of. When we did LA Riots, Mammy Dearest, all those shows that are so memorable. It starts with the writing and Susan and. And who else was in that writing room? Gina Prince by Reggie bythewood. Gina Prince is getting rid child. Y' all getting ready. Woman King was one thing, honey. Yes. But she is the director of the Children of Blood and Bone. This book. I don't know if you know about it, but actually, Kobe Bryant gave me this book before he died. He said, debbie, you got to read this. They were all in the writers room, along with Yvette Lee Browser, who, you know, she is other. There was so much talent and energy and she. Together, we just engaged. And I was always in the principal's office. I say, I was always called into the network. Really? Oh, God. Oh, my God. Y' all have no idea what I had to go through. And still. And still, what were their upsets?
- [38:25]
Podcast Host
Why were they calling you out?
- [38:26]
Debbie Allen
Oh, because you took it from a.
- [38:27]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Sitcom to a social movement.
- [38:29]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, yeah. You know, because we did the first show about aids. Whoopi Goldberg. I knew Whoopi was going to win that Oscar. She's been my friend forever. I said, whoopi, would you come? Debbie, you know, I'm there. She came. I had her. They didn't care. I said, aids is killing our people, your people, everybody. We need to do this. And they were going to strike that show down. Bill Cosby stood up and said, all right, we might not have advertisers, but you're going to get to do the show. Wow. He stood up single handedly and made it happen. So doing shows about date rape or, you know, I was just always called into the office. Why do we have to do. Why do. I said, chad, we can't just talk about, you know, somebody bumping in a corner. Going to do some of that too.
- [39:26]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
What gave you the courage to continue to make those changes? Because a lot of people would conform, Right. A lot of people would see the networks complaining, saying, you're going to lose sponsors and be like, okay, I'll have them dancing. You know what I mean?
- [39:38]
Debbie Allen
Yeah. But I had an army at my back. Susan Fails was right there ahead, writing. I had the cast. We, you know, I gave them a voice that was part of what I did. Because sometimes in Hollywood, when I was first starting, the writers were like gods. And the actors are like, okay, you just do What I tell you. And that has changed because actors have to have a voice that's, you know, Gary David Goldberg, who did Family Ties, wanted me to take a big seat at that show when I chose a different world. But I had worked with him and Michael J. Fox, and what I loved about Gary David Goldberg, after every table read, he opened the floor to the actors with them sitting there with the writers. What did you think? What are your ideas? That's a real collaboration. That was not happening, and we made it happen. And, you know, God bless the whole staff, crew, actors, writers. It was. Is not just me. It was all of us.
- [40:48]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
So. So what's your process for, I guess, telling hard truths, you know, without losing, I guess, the entertainment value of it all? Because I know you're directing the reboot, too. I think I saw.
- [40:58]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, I've been working with the reboot on Netflix, and there are some changes there that we're trying to make. We see where it goes. Well, what is your question?
- [41:08]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Like, how do you tell the hard truths? How do you tell hard truths and still keep it entertaining?
- [41:13]
Debbie Allen
Basically, because that's the way the world is. In the middle of all this, you'll find something to laugh about. In the middle of this, you'll see somebody you want to kiss. Yeah, that riot is happening, but, ooh, baby, look at that boy over there. Who is that? Real life doesn't stop because of. It will stop you. It makes you think and have to talk and address, but it goes on.
- [41:41]
DJ Envy
Ms. Debbie Allen has to leave as well, too, guys.
- [41:43]
Debbie Allen
Yeah, she does.
- [41:44]
DJ Envy
Okay, you got last one, anybody?
- [41:46]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
I do have a last one. You know, I mean, like, fame showed what art could be, right? And A Different world showed what education could be. How do you think your work has shaped how young people now see the intersection between art and intellectual and activism?
- [42:00]
Debbie Allen
You know, that's such a good question, and I appreciate that question because. Because Netflix just rebooted A Different World, the original on. And a lot of people are talking to me and asking me, but the mind of young people, the curiosity is what you want. You want them to be curious. And I think when they see these shows, when they see me and I make myself accessible, they feel like they could do something, too. That is really. That's what it's about. They could do something, too. I'm still learning. I'm still at this ripe old age. I'm getting ready to direct August Wilson's Joe Turner's Come and Gone on Broadway in the spring. And I am in school because you can't come up there. It's like, you can't direct Shakespeare if you don't understand the language, the period. I am up in the August Wilson School of Thought. Deep, deep, deep, deep. So by the time we open in April, that show is going to be amazing. But.
- [43:03]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Oh, I can't wait.
- [43:04]
Debbie Allen
Oh, it's going to be. Child ticks go on sale November 5th.
- [43:07]
Smart Water Advertiser
I have to say that out loud.
- [43:10]
Debbie Allen
Brian Moreland, who actually produced Othello, Denzel's Othello is our producer.
- [43:16]
Smart Water Advertiser
Amazing.
- [43:17]
Debbie Allen
But I'm just saying, I'm still in school, so I'm putting together a whole packet of information about 1911. What was happening, what was the music, who was president, what was happening in Europe? You got to know all of these things. What was happening in Pittsburgh? Where were we with the Great Migration? Where are we with emancipation? Where are we legally with civil rights? You got to do the work.
- [43:44]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
That's right.
- [43:45]
Debbie Allen
And I am still doing the work.
- [43:49]
Smart Water Advertiser
Ms. Debbie Allen, have you ever taught a proper twerk? I just wanna know.
- [43:56]
Debbie Allen
I don't know.
- [43:57]
Smart Water Advertiser
Through all your lessons. No, you need help through all your lessons. I just wanna know, like, have you ever taught twerkage, ever?
- [44:05]
Debbie Allen
I love that. Well, you know, I don't know if I've taught it for my husband. It's always on me to stop doing it. That's all I can. Yes, I know.
- [44:17]
Smart Water Advertiser
That's right.
- [44:17]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
That's why you've been married so long. Okay.
- [44:24]
Debbie Allen
He doesn't want me to do it in public. I can do it in the bedroom. I can do it at home, but not yes, ma'.
- [44:30]
DJ Envy
Am.
- [44:31]
Smart Water Advertiser
Okay, that's all I answer.
- [44:32]
DJ Envy
We appreciate you for joining us. If you're out and about, make sure you pick up her Barbie doll. Also, donate to the school.
- [44:38]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Yes.
- [44:38]
DJ Envy
And thank you so much. And please don't be a stranger. Anytime you're in the city, pull up on us.
- [44:42]
Smart Water Advertiser
Yes.
- [44:42]
Debbie Allen
I'll be coming back here to direct that play. I'll come and visit y'.
- [44:45]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
All.
- [44:45]
DJ Envy
Yes, ma'.
- [44:46]
Debbie Allen
Am. Thank you.
- [44:46]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
I love her always. I will definitely be there to see that.
- [44:48]
DJ Envy
Me, too.
- [44:49]
Debbie Allen
Yes, absolutely.
- [44:50]
DJ Envy
As Ms. Debbie Allen. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.
- [44:53]
Annabe Sofas Advertiser
Hold up.
- [44:54]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
Every day I wake up.
- [44:55]
Debbie Allen
Wake your ass up.
- [44:56]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
The Breakfast Club.
- [44:57]
Debbie Allen
Y' all finished or y' all done?
- [45:00]
Johnny Knoxville
Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media, and Big Money Players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect.
- [45:16]
Debbie Allen
Storm in a sewer.
- [45:17]
Breakfast Club Co-host (possibly Charlamagne Tha God)
That was dumb. Do not follow my example.
- [45:22]
Johnny Knoxville
Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [45:33]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.
- [45:47]
Debbie Allen
America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.
- [45:59]
Graves County Podcast Narrator
Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [46:13]
Debbie Allen
Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door.
- [46:25]
Smart Water Advertiser
She never made it inside.
- [46:27]
Debbie Allen
And that text message would be the.
- [46:30]
Smart Water Advertiser
Last time anyone would ever hear from her.
- [46:33]
Debbie Allen
Listen to Hunting for Answers from the.
- [46:35]
Smart Water Advertiser
Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:43]
Debbie Allen
I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maite Gomez Rejuan. And this week on our podcast Hungry for History, we talk oysters. Plus the Miami Chief stops by. If you are not an oyster lover, don't even talk to me.
- [46:55]
Annabe Sofas Advertiser
Ancient Athenians used to scratch the names.
- [46:57]
Debbie Allen
Onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracize is related to the word oyster. No way. Bring back the oster con. Listen to Hungry for history on the.
- [47:10]
Annabe Sofas Advertiser
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:14]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast.