INTERVIEW: Dr. Jamal Bryant Talks Social Media Ministry, Political Firestorms, Target, Druski, Principle Over Profit + More

Summary

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The Breakfast Club Interview: Dr. Jamal Bryant Talks Social Media Ministry, Political Firestorms, Target, Druski, Principle Over Profit + More

Podcast: The Breakfast Club
Date: February 17, 2026
Hosts: Charlamagne tha God, Jess Hilarious, DJ Envy
Special Guest: Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant, renowned preacher, activist, and community leader. The discussion covers a wide array of timely topics, including the intersection of faith, activism, and politics, navigating social media ministry, confronting scandals within and outside the church, the ongoing Target boycott, staying principled in the face of adversity, and keeping spirituality relevant for a new generation. Dr. Bryant speaks candidly on controversy, leadership failures, and maintaining integrity, all while offering personal reflection and engaging anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

MLK Jr., Righteous Anger & Justice

• On Nonviolence and Justice (02:50)

  • Dr. Bryant reflects on the legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr., emphasizing the ongoing challenge of maintaining peace rather than reacting with violence, even when provoked.
  • Quote: “He means don’t fight people... sometimes you just gotta have peace. It’s a difficult thing. It’s easy to say. It’s hard to do.” (02:53 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Responding to Church Disruptions and Inequality (03:31)

  • Bryant relays an incident where a fellow pastor purposefully caused a disturbance at his church, questioning why justice is inconsistent in America.
  • Quote: “Justice for white evangelicals is who agrees with me. And if you don’t agree with me, then you have to pay a penalty and a cost to it.” (04:04 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Balancing Righteous Anger with Spiritual Peace (04:33)

  • He challenges the notion of a meek Jesus, asserting a need for boldness and confronting injustice.
  • Quote: “People just want to make Jesus weak... He kicked over tables and pulled out whips... We've got a responsibility to speak truth to power.” (04:43 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

The Role of the Church in Society & Politics

• Speaking Out and Social Engagement (05:14)

  • Bryant critiques preachers who remain silent on social issues, urging clergy to engage fully with contemporary matters.
  • Quote: “If you can’t say anything about the Epstein files... immigration... affordable healthcare... voting rights... you’re not a preacher, you’re just a TED Talk speaker.” (05:20 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• On Political Involvement (06:56)

  • Rejects the notion that faith leaders should avoid politics, citing Jesus’ work outside the church.
  • Quote: “87% of what Jesus did was outside of the church. What the present American church does is speak to 87% of what’s inside.” (07:00 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• White Christian Nationalism (07:37)

  • Discusses hypocrisy and the selective application of Christian principles by political actors and institutions.
  • Quote: “They claim that we are a Christian nation, but we don’t see it in the values and in the virtues.” (07:39 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

Resisting Normalcy, Embracing Disruption & Multiple Gifts

• Comfort vs. Growth (08:26)

  • Using the analogy of vanilla ice cream, he asserts that people prefer comfort and sameness, resisting necessary change.
  • Quote: “The number one selling ice cream is vanilla because people don’t want anything outside of that, which is regular... Whenever God is coming to disrupt your life, he gonna put some sprinkles in it.” (08:26 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Multiplicity of Gifts (09:14)

  • Challenges the tradition of limiting people to a single role or talent, referencing the biblical wise men.
  • Quote: “Whenever you got more than one gift, people who are normal will have a problem with you.” (10:10 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Addiction to Affirmation and Social Media Validation (10:50)

  • Warns against the modern dependency on public validation, especially heightened by social media.
  • Quote: “We have become addicted to affirmation. But can you do what you're called to do if nobody else understands it, if nobody else likes it?” (10:50 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

Leadership, Temptations, and Living Authentically

• Lessons in Leadership (14:49)

  • Bryant underscores the far-reaching consequences of leadership decisions and cautions against selfishness in leadership, drawing parallels to political figures.
  • Quote: “The worst thing in the world is to be a selfish leader, and that’s what you are seeing in Trump.” (14:56 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Integrity, Scrutiny & Living Transparently (21:57)

  • Discusses his own failings, the importance of transparency, and why perfection in spiritual leadership is a myth.
  • Quote: “I don’t want to be somebody’s stumbling block... And I think that your integrity and your character have got to develop, and you got to do it.” (21:57 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Learning Humility through Life’s Struggles (20:06)

  • Cites personal humility gained through his failures and setbacks, like failing the 11th grade and navigating divorce, offering hope to imperfect individuals.
  • Quote: “God had to strip from me pride. And that’s hard for a Black man. My successes are always the size of my failures in order to keep me balanced.” (20:06 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

Church Scandals & Cultural Critique

• On the Druski Church Skit (24:29)

  • Reacts to comedian Druski’s viral skit, urging the church to self-reflect and improve rather than just defend itself.
  • Quote: “If we gave him the material, we can’t get mad... Sometimes we gotta look in the mirror and not out the window.” (24:32 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Church, Stewardship, and Community Impact (25:27)

  • He highlights the responsibility of churches to teach financial empowerment, not just encourage giving.
  • Quote: “Don’t tell people to tithe if you never taught them how to invest... My job as a pastor is not just to talk about you giving the tithe, but to show you how to multiply the 90.” (25:27 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

Social Media Ministry, Target Boycott, and Community Organizing

• Harnessing Social Media (26:35)

  • Bryant discusses the reality that online ministry reaches far more people than physical church gatherings.
  • Quote: “Our sanctuary in Atlanta holds a couple thousand people, but online on Sunday morning, it’s 50,000.” (27:08 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Target Boycott Update & Outcomes (27:49)

  • Gives a detailed update on the ongoing Target boycott, citing measurable impacts thanks to community mobilization.
  • Quote: “Target has lost $12 billion... their stock dropped from $145 a share to $93 a share... foot traffic has gone down by 9.3%.” (28:23 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

• Demands for Corporate Accountability (29:34)

  • Outlines clear priorities for resolving the boycott: partnerships with HBCUs, $2 billion in reinvestment, improved access to corporate leadership for minorities, and following through on promises made after George Floyd’s murder.

Calling, Qualification & Practical Faith

• God Calls the Unqualified (30:39, 30:47)
  • Encourages young listeners to step forward even if they don’t feel “qualified,” noting that God often calls the least likely.
  • Quote: “God very rarely calls you to do something that you’re trained to do... Ask God for something dangerous... that if he don’t get involved, you gonna fail at it.” (30:49 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

Church Titles Clarified

• Reverend vs. Pastor (32:04)
  • Clarifies the difference: A pastor oversees a church; a reverend can be ordained but not lead a congregation.
  • Quote: “A pastor has a church. A reverend may just be preaching, but he doesn’t have a congregation that he’s over.” (32:11 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We assume it’s three wise men because it’s three gifts. What if it was just two and one of them had two gifts?” (09:57 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)
• “The highest-selling drug in America, the narcotic that people are most addicted to is fame.” (12:19 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)
• “It is only church people that want you to pick one gift. They only want you to stay in one lane.” (09:14 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)
• “You got to have a newspaper in one hand and a Bible in another.” (05:20 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)
• “God has no patience for people who dream safe.” (30:49 - Dr. Jamal Bryant)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:50] - MLK Jr., nonviolence, and righteous anger
• [04:33] - Spiritual peace vs. activism
• [05:20; 06:56] - The church’s duty to social/political engagement
• [08:26] - On embracing disruption and resisting comfort
• [10:50] - Dangers of addiction to affirmation/social media
• [14:49] - Hard lessons of leadership and selfishness
• [20:06; 21:57] - Humility from pain and real-life testimony
• [24:29] - Druski skit and church’s public image
• [26:35; 27:07] - Social media as a ministry tool
• [27:49; 28:23] - Target boycott impact
• [29:34] - Demands for corporate accountability
• [30:39; 30:47] - Calling, qualification, and faith in action
• [32:04] - Differences between “reverend” and “pastor”

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode balances serious social critique with humor, pop culture references, and frank discussion of personal shortcomings and community challenges. Dr. Bryant’s delivery is passionate, witty, and rooted in lived experience, while Charlamagne and Jess push for practical takeaways and authentic conversation.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This summary captures the major philosophical, cultural, and practical takeaways from the conversation. It offers direct quotes and clear timestamps, ensuring you can locate the most impactful moments with ease – whether you're reflecting on the Black church's societal role, seeking inspiration on living authentically, or curious about high-profile activism campaigns like the Target boycott.

Transcript

[Charlamagne tha God]

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[Jess Hilarious]

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[DJ Envy]

There Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections on by default built in content settings for the content teens can see, contact limits for who can contact them, and time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. Teens are automatically placed into teen accounts and teens under 16 will need appearance permission to change any of these settings to be less strict. Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts you know, we joke all the time on our show and it seems like we hate on each other, but in real life it's all love here. And that's family. And that's why this message from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate really, really matters. Because real hate isn't jokes. It's real people getting targeted. Like the kid who gets singled out at school in the commercial during the big game. But what stood out to me was someone choosing to show love instead of ignoring it. If you saw that Blue Square commercial, you know, and if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one way you stand for love and not hate.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Every day I wake up, wake your ass up.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The breakfast Club. Y' all finished or y' all done? Yes. It's the world's most dangerous morning show. The Breakfast Club Charlamagne. Tha. God, Jess. Hilarious. Envy and Lauren LaRosa are out today, but we got a special guest in the building. Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant is here. How you doing?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Hey, man. I'm doing great. Good to see you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I love that sweater you got.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Thank you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What does MLK Jr mean to you, brother man?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

He means don't fight people. I gotta remind myself, sometimes you just gotta have peace. It's a difficult thing. It's easy to say. It's hard to do.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know, we was having a conversation that just got in trouble for. Because what? How he was gonna start with when the guy came into your church.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And you said he should be arrested.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes. Yes. Right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Jess was saying that y' all should just beat his ass because she said when she in the church she used to grow up in, in Baltimore, they used to beat people up. Dang.

No, don't call me.

And her mama said, no, that is not true.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

No, but I. I've raised it. Not even he should be arrested. What's crazy is he's a pastor who left his church in Alabama and drove an hour and a half to disrupt somebody else's church.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, wow.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

But the catch to me, Charmaine, is don't arrest him, arrest his wife, who filmed it, and do it on the same principle that y' all arrested Don Lemon and Georgia Forte. So if you're not gonna deal with the protester, deal with the journalist who captured it. That's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Has there been any movement on that?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Nothing. Wow. Nothing. Now, do you know how fast we'd have been arrested if we beat them old white people up? Listen, I'd have a GoFundMe right now. Please release Pastor Bryant. No. It's inequitable in America, what Jesus justice is supposed to look like. Justice for white evangelicals is who agrees with me. And if you don't agree with me, then you have to pay a penalty and a cost to it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How do you personally balance righteous anger, Right. With spiritual peace in this world that is constantly on edge and constantly trying You. Yeah.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Well, you gotta remember people just want to make Jesus weak. And absent of testosterone, he kicked over tables and pulled out whips. He cursed people and said that you were out of order. He said to pedophiles off Epstein island, is better for you to put a rock around your neck and jump into an ocean. Yeah. People want to pick and choose the lane that Jesus was in. But I think that we've got a responsibility to speak truth to power.

[Charlamagne tha God]

True.

You know, what's the difference between being a loud pastor and a listening pastor? Because I feel like you do both.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah, I think that you have to do both. Theologians said you got to have a newspaper in one hand and a Bible in another. Who I am concerned about is preachers who say nothing about nothing. They don't speak to speak to a different lane. So if you can't say anything about the Epstein files, are you going to say something about immigration? If you ain't gonna say nothing about immigration, are you gonna say something about affordable healthcare? If you ain't gonna say nothing about affordable healthcare, you gonna say something about the defunding of HBCUs? If you ain't gonna say nothing about that, are you gonna say something about the endangerment on Voting Rights Act? So find something. Otherwise, you're not a preacher, you're just a TED Talk speaker. Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I feel like it's your duty in a way, because you are a leader.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And you're a community leader at ted. So how do you sit in front of these people every Sunday knowing that they got all these things on their mind and not talk about it?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

And that's what I say to white evangelical preachers who can find righteousness until it deals with Trump. I'm waiting on record for one white evangelical preacher to call out Trump and his minions on pedophilia. You're very quick to talk about everything else. We went from black lives matter to all lives matter, but nobody is saying anything about how do we protect and cover our children. It's been Signs of the Lambs with absolutely no redress. They're quick to talk about righteousness, talk about they couldn't support Kamala Harris because she was pro life. But what about the people who are alive? Are you going to do anything to safeguard and protect them?

[Charlamagne tha God]

How do you respond to critics that say church folks should stay out of politics?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. Then they don't understand the Bible. The reality is 87% of what Jesus did was outside of the church. What the present American church does is speak to 87% of what's inside. And I think that's why a lot of young people don't go to church anymore, because they're not hearing anything. Dick Gregory said, I don't want to hear about pie in the sky. I want to talk about a pound on the ground. So if you're not dealing with what I'm dealing with in my contemporary life, then it really is not speaking to anything.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah. And you can't keep politics out of church when they bring in the church into politics.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Absolutely.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What is white Christian nationalism?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

They claim that we are a Christian nation, but we don't see it in the values and in the virtues. How it is that this administration has dishonored and disrespected black women time and time again. The way that Pam Bondi went out, really like she was absent of the law, absent of conscience, that her responsibility, seemingly, is to protect the president and not the United States citizenry. So I think that we got to do a whole evaluation. She said, if everything in the Epstein list comes out is going to destroy a whole system, then destroy the system and let's. Let's rebuild.

[Charlamagne tha God]

We don't talk about that in the. We don't talk about destroying and rebuilding enough. The Bible's full of those type of stories.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Why is it so important to destroy and rebuild?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Because I think that people like being safe, and that's why a lot of people don't change. A lot of people don't stretch. Is they get comfortable in what they know. Jess, it is. Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors. All of us know. We from South Carolina, we from Baltimore. Everybody knows 31 flavors. The number one selling ice cream is vanilla because people don't want anything outside of that, which is regular and that's. Which is normal. So whenever God is coming to disrupt your life, he gonna put some sprinkles in it, he gonna add something in it so that you can't just keep going on with the way that things used to be.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Do you not. Well, do you find it difficult to be or. How do you balance being a spiritual leader and an activist?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah, for me, it's one in the same. I'm not able to pick and choose. You are a radio commentator and you are a comedian. When people listen to you, you're able to operate in both. It is only church people that want you to pick one gift. They only want you to stay in one lane. People who have more than one gift have the greatest level of frustration because people put you in a box. When we grew up as children in church, we were told about three wise men that brought gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Charlemagne. There's nowhere in the Bible that says they were three wise men. We assume it's three wise men because it's three gifts. What if it was just two and one of them had two gifts?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Hold on now. You messing me up. There was no three wise Men in.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

The Bible, I can't find that. It just says that wise men came bringing gold, frankincense and myrrh. We just assume each person only got one gift.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Wow.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Whenever you got more than one gift, people who are normal will have a problem with you. The people who deal with depression the most are the people who are the most gifted. Because when you got to deal with all of your gift, all of your talent, all of your anointing, and you got to adjust to normal people, it becomes frustrating because they trying to figure out, why are you doing all of that? It don't take all of that. And so you got to say second guess yourself, am I doing too much? Why am I not normal? Why do I not think like everybody else? But greatness is never left to normalcy. It's always put you on the outliers, and that's why you're gonna be condemned.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Do you think you you doing what you called to do?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Absolutely. Okay. If I died and came back twice, I would be where it is that I'm supposed to be. I find my greatest level of fulfillment operating in my lane. And the problem, Charlemagne just with social media is we have become addicted to affirmation. But can you do what you're called to do if nobody else understands it, if nobody else likes it, if nobody else believes in it? Most people, Mahatma Gandhi said, first they laugh at you and then they want to join you. So you got to figure out, how do I navigate that space of getting through it. My dad is a retired a preacher, and he said years ago, and it haunts me to this day. My dad says he is glad he wasn't Obama's pastor, because if he was Obama's pastor, he would have told him not to run. Yeah. There's no way that you would have made it. And so even people who are filled with faith can be wrong. Even people who are Christians can be wrong. When God is doing something different, then you got to brace yourself to walk in it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I love that Gandhi quote. It's first they ignore you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

That's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Then they laugh at you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Then they fight you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And then you win.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

That's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Have you, have you gone through all those things?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I'm still going through it. It's in cycles. Yeah. Ask me again on Thursday.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes. Are you hard to be ignored nowadays?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Listen, even when I want to be. Even when.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Even when you want to be ignored.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Listen, Bishop Jakes said to me years ago that after you get famous, the only thing you can do is become infamous and you got to figure out what is the gift of anonymity. So not being known is a blessing. I was just talking to my team before we came in here. The highest selling drug in America, the narcotic that people are most addicted to is fame.

[Jess Hilarious]

That's right.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Is people just want to be seen. So they went on the island, they participated in the rituals. They was eating flesh. They were dealing with babies. Not even necessarily because they were drawn to it, but they told them, this is the receipt you got to have in order to be in this space. And a lot of people compromise themselves for popularity, even at the risk of their own integrity. Man.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Pastor, you just answered a question that I've been asking all week. And I don't want to sound crazy when I ask it, but I literally have been asking, are these people natural born pedophiles? Are they participating in some type of ritual? Was that like something they had to do to be in that environment? Either way, it's sick.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes, but which one is it? Look at the girl. The lady who got the job at the United nations from uae, United Arab Emirates. Epstein didn't ask for her little sister. She volunteered her 13 year old sister and say, oh, you gonna like her. She prettier than me. Is what people will do in order to get to that place. And so just, you know that there are people who want to get to you. They don't like you, but they think you're gonna open the door for that. People want success adjacent. They want popularity, connection. You run into people all the time. They not asking you how you doing?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Never.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

And if you answer, they don't care.

[Charlamagne tha God]

They don't care.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Please listen to my demo. That's right. On to the next thing. And so to find people who really are interested in who it is that you are, Drake said, no new friends. Sometimes you got to have some new friends. But sometimes we stay with the people who we know. From back when you didn't have nothing because you trusted. At this space, you got to have a different kind of interrogation on why you really here. What is your real draw? What's your real attraction? A lot of people don't know you, but they like the oil that you carry.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's scary too.

What's the leadership lesson you learned the hard way? Like something you wish somebody had told you earlier.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

The leadership lesson that's the hardest is every decision you make impacts people beyond you. When you are making decisions for other people is very critical. And it's backfired on me a whole lot. The worst thing in the world is to be a selfish leader, and that's what you are seeing in Trump. All he cares about is what he feels. Can you imagine, just for the first time in 44 years, the Gallup polls can no longer report what is the approval rating of the president.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's crazy.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

He said, I don't even want to hear how bad of a job that I'm doing. So I'm no longer going to give the employment records, I'm no longer going to give unemployment records. I'm no longer going to give approval. I only want to hear what makes me feel good. He said last week he now wants to tax churches that speak against him. So the only people who will do well are people who bow down to Pharaoh. Anybody who stands up for themselves is going to find themselves in the line of fire.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Why do you think so many people are willing to bow down?

Right.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Again. For everybody who's listening who graduated from vacation Bible school, You remember Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? Everybody bowed down but the three.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Talk to the heathens, man. Yeah, yeah. We don't know what the hell you talking. We'll talk to the heathens, man.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

So it's three Hebrew boys and they had this terrible president named Nebuchadnezzar. And Nebuchadnezzar knew how to get black votes. This is what Nebuchadnezzar did. He said, let me bring in good music, because I know Negroes bow down to good music. He said, let me give them gold. They're going to put it in their teeth. They're going to put it around their neck. They're going to put rims on their car. And they will bow down. Everybody bow down. This is in the Book of Daniel, except for three boys, and the three boys were Gen Z. All of the boomers, all the millennials, all the ex is the newest generation that's always going to be the revolutionaries. The young generation is always going to be the ones that kick against the pricks. And so young people who are listening don't wait for your mother, your father, your grandmother, they now safe. There's no revolution in the history of the world that doesn't take place at the feet of young people.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Pharaoh was ultimately defeated.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes. Trump going to be defeated.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Talk to us.

[Jess Hilarious]

Talk to us.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. When you look at dementia is serious, delusion is serious, narcissism is serious. And James Baldwin said so eloquently, evil always goes too far. The evil never knows what its limits or its boundaries are. And so as a Consequence ICE is now pulling out of Minneapolis. They pulling out of Chicago because they're seeing that the people are pushing back. And all over the country, there's a groundswell. Can you imagine me and Jess Governors Westmore, he wasn't invited to the governor's crazy as the only black. But here's what's significant that y' all can't miss is even the white Republican governor said, we ain't going. Yeah. So there's a revolution that is taking place that the system didn't bank on that I think is getting ready to arise. And you can already see it in these midterm elections when they try to tamper with those results.

[Charlamagne tha God]

One thing I always loved about you, Pastor Jamal Brown, is like, you never try to act like you're perfect. And a lot of people, just people who don't even go to church, they have a problem with pastors. Oh, they did this. How somebody gonna tell me how to do this and how to build a relationship with the Lord if they're not perfect? What are some things that you're still working on even in your own life, with your own self?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. Bishop Noel Jones out of L. A, one of my mentors said God will use a preacher's life just so they'll have something to preach. You can't get it out of a book. And so had I lived a perfect life, how would I learn how to preach to people who live through divorce? How do I learn how to talk to young people about failing the 11th grade and getting kicked out? How do you talk about being side eyed from people in the church and living through embarrassment and shame? And so I think if we believe that the gospel is true and redemption is available and transformation is accessible, then use exhibit A. And I think that a lot of preachers mess up because they want to live in witness protection and act like they ain't never done nothing, like they ain't never drank nothing, ain't never slept with nobody, ain't never smoked. Then how do I know God is real? And you giving me 1985 testimonies. So God has got to bring exhibit A, that you know, God will use a murderer to free all of his children. He'll use somebody who got a speech impediment to be a spokesperson. And so I think that the flaws that are in men and women of God exemplified that. It ain't them, but it's really God that's working through.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What's something God had to script from you before, before he could elevate you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

God had To strip from me pride. And that's hard for a black man. My successes, Charlemagne, are always the size of my failures in order to keep me balanced. Otherwise, James Weldon Johnson, drunk with the world of the wine we forget thee. And so I failed the 11th grade, got a GED, but went to Morehouse, went to Duke, went to Oxford. And so most churches I go to only talk about Morehouse and Duke. They don't talk about my ged. Yeah. So I. I got to remind them of that Sunday we're doing 150 couples at our church are renewing their vows.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That is nice.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. But I'm going to tell them. But your pastor's divorce. This is my second marriage, and 60% of people go to church. Been divorced, but we'll never talk about that. And so I think it's important for us to talk about the Old Testament and the New Testament on what your journey is. Not that you've just arrived, but it takes you some time and some space. And sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't. The Bible says all have sinned, fallen short of his glory. People believe it until it come to their pastor. Yeah. Yeah. We sin every day by thought, word, and deed. Not Reverend Jones. Reverend Jones ain't never gonna do that. We do. So many people sin in their thoughts, so they think that they're better than people who sin in their deeds.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Have you taken a step back to look and see why God has expanded your territory the way he has?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I'm. I'm amazed. And my amazement is wrapped in embarrassment. And my embarrassment is what brings me. Humility.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What are you embarrassed about?

Yeah.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

So many things that I've gone through in my life, I've got to really pray through. Lord, use me to push people towards the kingdom and not away from it. Is. I don't want to be somebody stumbling block to say, man because of what he did. I don't see the grace factor. I feel like they getting away. And whenever you deal with a mega pastor, it is always looked at as a Ponzi scheme. What is really going on behind that? And I think that your integrity and your character have got to develop, and you got to do it. God never gives me the grace to fail in private. I can't get away with nothing. So whatever it is, it's there, it's available. And so when you realize that the ops is heaven.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Then you got to live a different way and hold yourself at a different standard.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's a great answer, because I think that, you know, sometimes when your Anointing is different.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like, you really can't get away with nothing. No, I can. There's a lot of people I know can see doing this here and there. And I'm like, damn, how do you get away with that? But I know if I do it, oh, yeah, it's going to be hell.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

It's the end of it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, my God.

Just like the PPP loans. I wanted to do one so bad. All my friends, they still ain't locked up yet. But if I would have did it, I wouldn't be sitting right here with you today.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, no, for sure, for sure. Absolutely. No. It's a critical thing, is that the Bible says he only chastens those he loves. And a lot of times we look at the love of God connected to our blessing and not to our opposition. It's a story. For those of you who didn't grow up in church, don't read the Bibles. A guy by the name of Lazarus, he's sick. They sent message to Jesus that he's sick. But just this, what bothers me, we never know God loves him until Lazarus gets sick. No other time before that does he have expressed his love to him. Sometimes in our burden and sometimes in our chaos and sometimes in our controversy is where we find the love of God and are able to bounce back and move through it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Man, that's so real. My grandmother used to have a. A picture in her house, and it was called Footprints, I'm sure.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Everybody grandmother had that footprint.

[Jess Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And it's like, you see, you see two sets of footprint on the beach, then only one. Only one. God said, why is it? Why in my worst times, is it only one set of footprints?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

God said, that's when I carried you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

No, that's crazy.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah. Jesus. What did you think of Drew ski skit?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I thought it was funny. No, really, I thought it was funny. And the reason why people could identify with it is because we gave him the material. So we couldn't say none of this has ever happened in church. Andy Warhol said, art imitates life. And so those who are offended, let's do a better job of representing the church. Let's do a better job of packaging it and just, you know this. There's some truth in all jokes. So sometimes we gotta look in the mirror and not look out the window. And so I think it was a great time for the church to reevaluate what we do, how we represent it and how it is that people take what it is that we do. It's amazing that you will never see the house of an imam. You'll never see. Nobody talks about the car that a rabbi is driving. Cause they not posting it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Right.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

We up posting it. Some wealthy rabbis out here that got a whole lot of money. They own three jewelry stores five blocks from here. But we're not looking for. They are not looking for fame or notoriety or popularity or affirmation. They doing the work. And I think that the church has got to do a better job of doing the work. It's okay for you to have money. I say to people, don't tell people to tithe if you never taught them how to invest. If the only time I hear about money in church is about giving it, but not on multiplying it. My job as a pastor is not just to talk about you giving the tithe, but to show you how to multiply the 90. And if I'm not showing you how to be a good steward, then I'm doing a bad job. Desmond Tutu said, at the end of every year, the poor people in the community should vote to see if the church should be open another year. And if the poor people voted in the community where your church is, would they stay open? And I think that we got a responsibility to serve our people. Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How do you navigate social media? Because you're on it a lot, but the devil is busy, Right? There's a lot of things that aren't real. So how do you have the capacity to know what's what before you comment on it or share? Because I'm sure people be sending you stuff all the time. Like, look at this path. Look at this. How does your discernment work in the digital?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I got to figure out how do I advance the kingdom, the gospel, and the message. Our sanctuary in Atlanta holds a couple of thousand people, but online on Sunday morning is 50,000.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Wow.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

So I can't preach against social media when social media is how people are getting the gospel. The reality is more people go to church online than go in person. Uh, and so we gotta figure out how do we use it towards our good and really amplify the message. Our people, regrettably, have an appetite for bad news.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, we do.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

So more people are gonna go find out what happened with Cardi B Than what happened to the Haitians who are unprotected. And so we gotta figure out how do we advance it. And so we've got to really safeguard our platform so that those positive messages still come through.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What's up with the target Boycott any. Any movement.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Man, I'm so glad you asked. Let. Let me first say a year ago I came here. You wasn't here. Yeah, I know you weren't here.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I was at the Lord's house a year ago. Shut up.

Now you got some church members that you know, they. But they don't.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, yeah, she come for communion.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's right.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

She. Friends and Family Day. I got it. So let me first thank you because when we first started, Breakfast Club brought us on and was our biggest platform to announce it. So let me thank the family.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Thank you for.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Because of the black community coming together, Target has lost $12 billion. Because the community came together, their stock dropped from $145 a share to $93 a share. I want to thank the community that. Because foot traffic has gone down by 9.3% and online spending has dropped at that same number. So I want to first thank you because this is the largest boycott for black people since the Montgomery bus boycott 70 years ago. And it wouldn't have happened without the Breakfast Club partner with us. I'm excited because we. Target has a new CEO. They started just recently. And so we're in active conversations to try to come to a resolve. I'm excited about his leadership, that he wants it resolved and wants to know how he can partner better with the community. So not too soon. I'm going to be coming back to you to tell you where it is that we are. But I think it won't be long before we're able to come to a close.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Do you have a resolution plan in mind? Do you know what you're after?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, yeah, I'm after. Those same four things I told you about is that they got a partner with some HBCUs they've got to give an account to investing $2 billion back into the black community. They've got to reimagine. If DEI is now illegal, how do minorities have access to get to C suites in the company? And four is to make good to what they said to George Floyd's family.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's amazing to me that all of these corporations want to shun DEI initiatives, but diversity is the only thing moving. Diversity is what's cool. Diversity is what got people showing up. Bad bunny had 135 million people watching. That other thing they did, that Donald.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Trump watch didn't even matter. I gotta add that. That Donald Trump watched.

[Charlamagne tha God]

He said he wasn't gonna watch it.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

That's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

USA thing.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Listen, that Kansas just dropped that they pre taped two weeks before the Super Bowl. It was only 200 people in there, and they paid them $200 a piece in order to be there.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's right.

And fake the bots for the view.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

There we are. Yes. All of that. Thank you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I don't get it. If a young person is listening this morning, it's my last question, and they. They feel called, but they feel unqualified.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What would you tell them then?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

You're probably called. God very rarely calls you to do something that you're trained to do. Very rarely called you to do something that you got experience or background in. He called you in to do something to see where you trust him. There's a guy by the name of Peter who saw Jesus walking on the water and said, God, if that's you, let me come to where you are. He wasn't gifted to do it. He didn't have any talent to do it. He asked for it. And God said, because you had enough audacity to ask for it, Come walk. And so I would say to people, ask God for something dangerous. Ask God for something that if he don't get involved, you gonna fail at it. Ask God for something that will put your entire name on the line, and that's where God will show up. God has no patience for people who dream safe dream in a capacity to say, hey, God, if you don't get in this, then I'm gonna have an egg on my face.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's Pastor Jamal Bryant.

Yes. Yes, it is.

I don't know if you had another question.

Well, real quick.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Cause I do. I just want to know this. Could you say it's Pastor Jamal Brighton? Look at me like I got another name for him.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I phoned it over to you. Anyway.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What is the difference? Now, this may seem like a dumb question.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But what is the difference between a reverend and a pastor? I've never known that. But you are both correct.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What is the difference?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. So a pastor has a church. A reverend may just be preaching, but he doesn't have a congregation that he's over. So Reverend Al Sharpton is a preacher, but he's not over a church.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Gotcha.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay. I really did not know that.

I didn't know that either. I never knew that either. I just thought it was, like, the same. Like, two words that say the same thing.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. It means that you are ordained, but you're not necessarily over a flop.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Got you.

Okay.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. So Reverend Jesse Jackson never pastored, but he's an ordained preacher.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Got you.

Got you. So do people have to say, Reverend Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

No.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Choose one.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That would mess me up.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yeah. No, don't do it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Where'd you go to high school in Baltimore?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I didn't go to high school in Baltimore. My mother, she made me so mad I was getting in trouble when I was a teenager, right? So she moved me up 83 to go to high school in York, Pennsylvania. Damsel. Yes, she did. And I wanted to go to msrp.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

You never represent York, Pennsylvania. You've been on here saying just all Baltimore. Yes. Give York their due.

[Charlamagne tha God]

She doing what? She talking about how she got hooked on drugs.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Oh, Lord.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, my God. But I'm not hooked no more, Pastor.

Reverend, Doctor.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I know it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I'm. I'm not hooked no more. Yo, the Witness of Jehovah's be trialing. I'mma tell you.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Not the Witnesses of Jehovah, because that's.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What him and his wife is. They Witnesses of Jehovah.

No, we would not. My mother was a Jehovah Witness. Oh, My mother grew up with Jehovah Witness. Really? My mother is a Witness now, so I grew up Jehovah Witness.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I didn't know that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You still a Witness to God's great glory? Yes, I am.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Let me ask you a question.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, sir.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in Christmas.

[Charlamagne tha God]

They don't celebrate holidays.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes. How did the Jackson 5 do a Christmas album? And y' all are Jehovah Witnesses?

[Podcast Narrator/Advertiser]

Oh, my God.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The Jackson 5 was Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes, they were.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, my God.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Yes.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, they were.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Mama K is still knocking on doors.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Listen, they was getting that money.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Seriously, how did they do that?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I have no idea. That's a good question.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Go ask. Go ask them.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, you just told us God doesn't call to qualify. Hey, listen, it was qualified to call.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

I got it. I got it. Thank you. All right. I saw Mama kissing Santa Claus, right?

[Charlamagne tha God]

How? Witnesses of Jehovah?

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

How?

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's Pastor Jamal. Brian. It's the Breakfast Club.

[Jess Hilarious]

Hold up.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

That's right. It's DJ Envy.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's your girl Jess. Hilarious.

And I go by the name of Charlamagne, the God. And we are the world's most dangerous morning show, the Breakfast Club. Club. You just finished listening to, you know, our podcast for today.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And we want you to go watch the visuals on Netflix. You know, we. We're still on YouTube, but it's the clips on YouTube. But if you want to watch the Breakfast Club in full. If you want to see what you just listened to, go to Netflix.

That's right, Find us on Netflix.

[Pastor Dr. Jamal Bryant]

Show.

[Charlamagne tha God]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.