INTERVIEW: Dr. Jay Barnett & Dr. Joel Tudman Talk Men's Mental Health, Friendships, Finding Yourself + More

Summary

The Breakfast Club: Dr. Jay Barnett & Dr. Joel Tudman on Men's Mental Health, Friendship, and Finding Yourself

Podcast: The Breakfast Club
Hosts: DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlemagne Tha God, Lauren LaRosa
Guests: Dr. Jay Barnett, Dr. Joel Tudman
Date: October 10, 2025
Theme: A candid and insightful exploration of men's mental health, the complexities of male friendship, healing from betrayal and trauma (especially “church hurt”), and the lifelong journey of finding oneself.

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Episode Overview

On World Mental Health Day, The Breakfast Club hosts a vibrant conversation with Dr. Jay Barnett (therapist, author, podcaster) and Dr. Joel Tudman (pastor, speaker, mental health advocate). Both guests share personal stories and lessons about mental health, the struggles men face making and keeping deep friendships, trusting after betrayal, and the critical intersection of faith and therapy. The episode is a candid look at vulnerability, growth, and practical strategies for healing, not just for men, but for anyone navigating change and emotional challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Challenge of Male Friendship

• How They Met & The Importance of Persistence

  • Dr. Barnett and Dr. Tudman met in Dallas during the pandemic. Their friendship began as a fitness competition but was tested by Tudman’s emotional guardedness, stemming from past betrayals.
  • "Studies show this: men have a difficult time making friends after 35. And this is the real reason why a lot of men are suffering in silence and suffering in their mental health because of the lack of community and the lack of friendships."
    — Dr. J Barnett [08:05]

• Guardedness and 'Toxic Masculinity'

  • Tudman admits to being extremely guarded, calling it “toxic masculinity,” rooted in “father wounds” and past betrayals by male friends.
  • “I was all lion, no lamb in sight."
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [12:56]
  • “Because I didn't know what his experience was, but I knew I wanted to keep showing up for him."
    — Dr. J Barnett [09:35]

• Trust and Vulnerability

  • Genuine friendship requires persistence and the ability to process rejection from others without triggering old wounds.
  • "When you have dealt with your rejection or abandonment issues, how a person responds doesn't trigger you."
    — Dr. J Barnett [09:15]

2. Betrayal, Trust, and Healing in Relationships

• Betrayal and Homeboy Wounds

  • Both discuss how betrayal, whether from family or close friends, deeply scars men, causing trust issues and reluctance to be vulnerable.
  • “If I ever called you my brother and then you betray me in some way, it's just like, damn, it's hard to let people in.”
    — DJ Envy [15:01]

• Trusting Again & Boundaries

  • Trusting people is essential, yet brings the risk of hurt. Building healthy friendships means learning to trust in measured ways and recognizing everyone has limits in what they can give.
  • “Protecting yourself, you're only hurting yourself because you could be protecting yourself from what's going to actually heal you.”
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [22:16]

• Time and Trust

  • Trust is built over time, but “time can also be an illusion in a relationship,” as a long relationship can end in betrayal, while a new one can offer deep loyalty [25:52–27:24].

3. Growth, Success, and Shifting Relationships

• Navigating Change as You Elevate

  • As personal and professional lives change, so do friendships and family dynamics. Not everyone will understand or support growth.
  • “Be open to levels of friendships shifting. Because your life is shifting.”
    — Dr. J Barnett [28:39]

• Guilt and Responsibility

  • Lauren LaRosa shares the emotional toll of prioritizing career and not being able to “call everybody about everything” as her life accelerates.
  • “I've just had to learn how to really prioritize, realize that I can't take anything personal because people take everything personal now.”
    — Lauren LaRosa [29:54]

4. Faith, Church Hurt, and Mental Health

• The Need for Mental Health Support in Churches

  • The guests highlight the lack of acknowledgment of mental health in the church, despite church being positioned as a place of healing and sanctuary.
  • “A lot of churches have not thought about mental health in the faith conversation… You can't talk God and omit mental health. When God made us, he made mind, body, and spirit.”
    — Dr. J Barnett [41:48]

• Church as a Hospital (Analogy)

  • “Church is a hospital…with a lot of sick people who don’t take their meds.”
    — Dr. J Barnett [41:48]
  • “The church is full of trauma. The very church itself was founded on trauma.”
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [44:55]

• Religious Trauma

  • They discuss “religious traumatic syndrome” (RTS) and how unmet expectations within church communities can deeply wound individuals.

5. Therapy: Fears, Barriers, and Best Practices

• Barriers to Therapy

  • Many, especially in Black communities, don't trust therapy due to historical inequities and are often discouraged by initial negative experiences.
  • “Everyone is not gonna go to therapy, but there are experiences that you can have that can be therapeutic.”
    — Dr. J Barnett [49:15]

• Finding the Right Therapist

  • Seeking therapy is likened to dating: you may need to try different therapists before finding the right match. Don’t divulge everything at once; build trust progressively.
  • “You can only take the client as deep as the work that you've done internally within yourself.”
    — Dr. J Barnett [52:41]

• Ownership and Self-Honesty

  • The journey toward mental wellness begins with honesty and owning your need to heal, regardless of institution failures.
  • “You have to own the responsibility of what's going on with you.”
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [17:50]
  • “You gotta stop lying to yourself. At some point, you just gotta be honest with who you are and what you're feeling.”
    — DJ Envy [54:44]

6. Identity & The Journey of Finding Yourself

• Performance vs. Authenticity

  • Society judges us by what we do, but fulfillment and true identity come from knowing and loving who we are apart from our performance and achievements.
  • “If you can't say who you are without presenting what you do, it's a very cloudy picture that you have no idea who you are.”
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [56:59]

• Midlife Self-Discovery

  • Dr. Tudman shares he didn’t know himself until age 44, despite public success.
  • "I don't know who I am. And you know what they said? We've seen you preach on stages all over the world… And I said, yeah, and I don't know who I am."
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [57:52]

• The Power of Writing a New Story

  • Rather than replaying past trauma, we can write a new narrative for our lives.
  • “When I said what I wanted to see, it wasn't a dry eye in the room...Write your story. Create a new narrative. You don't have to keep replaying the same thing that happened to you.”
    — Dr. Joel Tudman [61:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Friendships After Betrayal:
  "Friendship also requires a level of vulnerability, and I didn't want to be vulnerable like that again."
  — Dr. J Barnett [15:49]

• On Father Wounds and Male Friendship:
  "When you've had father wounds, it's hard to build male to male friendships...you're very guarded, and you're very defensive because there's a part of you that have not had a...safe relationship with another man."
  — Dr. J Barnett [12:19]

• On Therapy’s Discomfort:
  “Therapy causes such a disruption that you feel worse after the session because they're breaking up stuff they got you unpacking.”
  — Dr. J Barnett [49:47]

• On Trust and Risk:
  “A part of trust comes with being broken. I mean, that's just a part of it.”
  — Dr. Joel Tudman [22:02]

• On Owning Your Healing:
  "You have to own the responsibility of what's going on with you."
  — Dr. Joel Tudman [17:50]

• On Evolving Identity:
  “The older I get, you evolve. The more things change in your life...who am I?”
  — DJ Envy [58:09]

• On Self-Love and Divine Acceptance:
  “He loves you. And if you can get to the point that he actually loves you and you're not waiting on you to say it and you to say it...then I can emerge from ashes, man, because I know that he actually loves me.”
  — Dr. Joel Tudman [59:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Friendship and Vulnerability:
  07:44–12:01
• Addressing Rejection, Abandonment & Father Wounds:
  12:01–14:54
• Betrayal in Friendship & Rebuilding Trust:
  14:54–19:15
• On Trust and Protecting Yourself:
  22:16–23:18
• Time and Friendship – Is it an illusion?:
  25:52–27:24
• Elevating in Life & Relationship Shifts:
  28:01–29:53
• Faith, Church Hurt & Trauma:
  41:36–44:52
• Therapy Fears & Best Practices:
  49:15–53:23
• Men and Expressing Emotion ("You hurt my feelings."):
  54:44–55:02
• The Fight To Find Yourself (Dr. Tudman's Book):
  55:02–63:06
• Writing a New Narrative:
  61:11–63:06
• Brain Love Merch & the Importance of Black Mental Health:
  66:06–67:20

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Final Takeaways

• Community heals, but vulnerability is hard. Men especially need to challenge the social restrictions on emotional openness and seek friendships that see and support them.
• Success changes relationships, and those changes can be painful. It's vital to surround yourself with genuine supporters and allow for friendships to evolve as life does.
• Healing from betrayal—and from institutional hurt like “church hurt”—requires both ownership and seeking the right kind of support (including therapy).
• Therapy isn’t one-size-fits-all. Finding the right therapist and pacing your healing process is crucial.
• Finding yourself is a continual, sometimes painful journey but it’s worth the fight, and everyone deserves to write (and re-write) their own story.
• Affirmation and self-love—rooted in faith or otherwise—help individuals move beyond hurt, betrayal, and trauma, building true resilience and wholeness.

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For anyone navigating the complexities of friendship, faith, or healing, this episode offers both hard-won wisdom and actionable encouragement from two men who have walked the journey themselves.

Transcript

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an I Heart Podcast.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

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[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Hunter]

I'm Hunter, host of Hunting for Answers on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Join me every weekday as I share bite sized stories of missing and murdered black women and girls in America. Stories like Erica Hunt, a young mother vanished without a trace after a family gathering on 4th of July weekend 2016. No goodbyes, no clues, just gone. Listen to Hunting for Answers every weekday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Do you want to hear the secrets of psychopaths, murderers, sex offenders? In this episode, I offer tip from them. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with real talk.

[Hunter]

When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like, snooze. We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Let's talk about safety and strategies to protect yourself and your loved ones. Listen to Intentionally disturbing on the iHeartRadio.

[Lauren LaRosa]

App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Hold up.

[DJ Envy]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

Finish or y' all done. Yes, it's the world's most dangerous morning show, the Breakfast Club. Charlemagne. The God DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Envy's not here, but Lauren LaRosa is in and we got some special guests in the building, man, the good brother, Dr. J Barnett, along with Dr. Joel Tubman. How y' all brothers doing, man?

[Dr. J Barnett]

Man, we good, man. Feeling good this morning, man.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Feeling real good, you know.

[DJ Envy]

You see Dr. J on the Just Hill Podcast, y'.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

All.

[DJ Envy]

Y' all going to Just Hill tour together?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah. Yeah, man.

[Dr. J Barnett]

So. So it's been exciting, man. The Just Hill podcast with Dr. J, man, we lunched back in April, and just to see how it's grown. Shaw was on me for years. Like, bro, you got to do a podcast. Like, you got to be on the network. And I'm. I wasn't, if I can be honest. I wasn't a. A podcaster, because I'm like, man, Jess, how this is. This is a gift that y' all do to get up and. And to talk and all of that. I love to speak because when I speak, I have this structure that I follow, and then I'm going these different places. But podcast has really grown me to hear other people's stories. So it's like therapy in real time. And from having my sis, Taraji, on Kirk Franklin Rico Love. And then I have some people who are just everyday people that are sharing their healing journeys and just sharing where they are. So it's been a fun journey, man. So now I can officially say, Jess, I'm a podcaster, period.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I know that.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Right?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I love it.

[Lauren LaRosa]

You guys have, like, a really cool dynamic because, I mean, you're a pastor, you do mental health and, like, all these things, right? But y' all know, in our community, a lot of times when you're going through stuff, people, like, just pray about it. How do y' all have conversations around that?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's more than prayer. I think prayer is very essential, but it's the backbone. It's a substratum of everything. But there has to be practical application because you're human. So that is the spiritual component. But if you don't have friendship, you don't have people that can help walk you through the journey, then you'll often become lost. And I like to say people become mystic. They just stay in this spooky ville. And again, that's not to talk about the church background, because I have a strong church background. But having therapists, having people that can actually supply sufficient support, really can help change the dynamic of what you're going through. I think that's very important.

[DJ Envy]

And, Dr. Joe, you used to be a associate pastor at the Potter house, right?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yes, sir.

[DJ Envy]

But then you left to go to Florida. I didn't know that could happen. They made it sound like you was transferring schools or something. You were playing one place, and you went to go someplace training.

[Lauren LaRosa]

What do you mean you didn't know that could happen?

[DJ Envy]

I mean, just the way they. I guess I guess the Potter house. So big, you know, the way they worded it, I'm like, okay, no, no.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I went there to learn from who I believe to be the greatest of all time. I think Bishop Jakes is the great of all times. And I went there to learn, and there was an opportunity that opened up in Florida, and so that's how I ended up there. I ended up there because he trained me, I was prepared, and we ended up in Florida. And God's been good to me since I've been there.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

How did that work, though? Like, when you, like. Like, what does the spirit tell you? Like, I want to be. I need you to go, you know, lead this congregation now. Lead this flock now. Like, what. What is that?

[Dr. J Barnett]

What.

[DJ Envy]

What hits you?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

When I was in Oklahoma originally, and when I was there, I knew that I wasn't going to be there forever. And so the opportunity for change didn't start at the Potter's house. I was coaching at Oklahoma State University and. And pastoring at the same time. And so the opportunity to shift came at a good season. Church was doing fine. The. My work was doing great, and I went to preach for Bishop Jakes. So I had to sit back and realize, okay, the things that I want to see happen in the future, career wise and ministry wise, came through an opportunity of another individual. There wasn't a voice from heaven that came down and said, move. It wasn't that. It was a man of God looked at me and said, what's your future? What do you want to be? What do you see happening? Where you want to go? And when I told him that, then it unlocked something for me to start looking at. And when I started looking at it, I started saying all the insufficiencies, all. All the places that needed work, all the places that needed a model or mentor, and he filled that void. And then from there, it was a challenge. What do you want? And I had to answer that question. And that answer was, move.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Wow.

[DJ Envy]

That's where y' all met, right?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yes.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah, we. We met in. In Dallas. A friend of mine had sent me a video, and like, yo, I just found your spirit animal. I was like, all right. So I started watching his clips. He in the gym, killing it. And, you know, he's a strength and conditioning coach, so we got the whole football background, but I'm watching how he speak, and I said, yo, I really rock with this dude, so I'm gonna pause. I slid his DMs.

[Lauren LaRosa]

But.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But I. But I hit him up and like, yo, Brother, I love what you're doing, man. And we. We had some exchange, but didn't know that we both moved to Dallas during the pandemic at the same time. And slowly, you know, started kind of engaging. But I'd engage him to come on my tour. The Jesse abroad. I had four voices, and I was like, you know, we need a five. And I could reached out to him. I said, bro, I want you to go on tour. Now, here's the story about the development of our friendship. This brother was not having it, Jess.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Okay.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And the more I would text him and like, hey, man, you know, brother, you know, look forward to having you on tour. He would come on the tour, he would get on stage, do his thing, and would just sit in the back and wouldn't say anything. Right. And I felt, you know, that he needed friendship, but I also felt compelled. Like, I just couldn't let it go.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And I would text him and check in on him like, hey, man, I hope you all is well, brother. Just checking in. And he would just text back the arm emoji, the muscle. Hop in. Because he was not. And I understood as we begin, because it's difficult. Sure. Men. And studies show this, men have. Have a difficult time making friends after 35. And this is the real reason why a lot of men are suffering in silence and suffering in their mental health because of the lack of community and the lack of friendships. They're not like women. They don't engage. And most men don't build friendships beyond their workplace. And our friendship started from a challenge of who can lose the most weight and get down to, you know, get down to the lowest body fat. And that built the friendship that people see that we have today. And the love that I have for this brother, and I saw it in him. Like I said, bro, you're one of the best to me. And I think when you are building friendships, you want to have friendships where somebody can see more in you than you see in yourself in that current space.

[DJ Envy]

Why were you so guarded? Dr. Tubman?

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah. Please, please tell these people. Matter of fact, tell the world how. Tell the world how he would leave me on red. And it didn't bother me because. And I want to add this. When you have dealt with your rejection or abandonment issues, how a person responds doesn't trigger you.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Because I didn't know what his experience was, but I knew I wanted to keep showing up for him.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Friendship is. Is important to me. It's very essential. And I'm too old to start over in Certain places. So for me, I have fresh room, fresh wounds, as it pertains to male, to male friendships, brothers, real strong relationships. And I had just gotten to the point to where I was okay without the relationship. And so when this good brother reached out to me, he was very persistent. I didn't understand him. I didn't understand his process, his makeup. He's a therapist, so his mental is really, really strong. Mine's strong, but it's defensive versus, you know, just being vulnerable. So I had a difficult time trying to be vulnerable. And so he kept pressing and kept pressing and kept pressing. I wasn't really interested in that. I was okay. I wasn't. I wasn't. I was okay with working out. So I was doing a challenge. He jumped in on Instagram and said, yo, I can now run you. I was like, man, get out of here with all that. You're too big, you know? So that's what happened. So we went into this 40 day challenge and then maybe 20 something days within to the challenge. He kept coming on. My lives kept coming on. Kept coming on. He said, man, once you meet me, let's box. So that's what happened. I met him at the gym somewhere in the twenties of the count. And our friendship started taking off. Now, as it started taking off, I was still very, very guarded because I was not going to get another homie, another homeboy. I was fine, okay. But as we continued to train, we started having therapeutic conversations about, what's going on in your mind, how, why are you having a hard time dealing with abandonment, rejection, what actually happened? And then as far as my career speaking, he said, hey, man, I want you to come on a tour with me. I went on the tour, but I still wasn't going to get close to all the rest of the guys. I had broken through with him just a little bit. So we go on the tour, we do our thing, and I sit in the back, not talking because I don't want to be involved emotionally again that way. However we broke through, he's become my best friend over 5 years now I have a much softer side. I was too hard, but. And I think God did an amazing thing by bringing him into my life. So now I don't have a. I had what's called toxic masculinity. Very toxic.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And break that down because somebody gonna hear that and they gonna create their own definition of toxic.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

I love the honesty, though. I love that.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

But.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But you know what, jt? I don't think it was really toxic. I just think it was Guarded. Because we both had father wounds.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And when you've had father wounds, it's hard to build male to male friendships. Because when you have not been fathered, well, you're very guarded, and you're very defensive because there's a part of you that have not had a. A very. A very safe relationship with another man.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

So for another man. And, you know, like, you know, I buy flowers and, you know, I mean, I'm. I'm all the things. But. But then the duality of that. I'm a lion and. And a lamb.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And so he got to see that. But I understood it. And it wasn't that I needed a friend. I just, like, there's just some people that you just felt drawn to.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yep.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And I think that's beautiful. That's a great way to put it. Lion and lamb. I was all lying, no lamb in sight. So to actually start experiencing other men that were so transparent that they could so show you the lamb, that took time for me to adjust. So I wasn't going to express how I felt. Bishop Jake broke me from that. He kept saying, how do you feel? And I was sending strong arm emoji, or I would send fire, you know, and he says, I'm tired of that. Explain to me what you feel. But I didn't have the language.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I didn't have the language to explain it. That's a part of that toxicity as well. Because if you can't explain it, you. You throw signs.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Okay. And so it took me going through all of the therapy, why I rejected my father, why my father wasn't there, the terrible relationships with my parents, the terrible relationships with my brothers and sisters, all of the things that were wrong with me. I started paying attention to the tension because the tension was causing me to break. So if you don't pay attention to the tension, you will pay for the tension. And that's what actually happened. So because I wasn't paying attention to the tension, the tension started fracturing me. And not only did it fracture me, it started fracturing the relationships around me. And everybody knows what a fracture is. A fracture is a break that you can't see.

[Dr. J Barnett]

See.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

All right, it's a hairline fracture, but there's a break there. And what ends up happening is some kind of blow is going to create a break to become visible to where you're going to have to either cast it or break it completely so they can reset it. And that's what happened to all of the relationships that I was attached to. It wasn't their fault. It was my fault because I had allowed so much pressure, so much tension to come into my own personal life, and it became difficult for me to converse productively with other people, especially other men.

[DJ Envy]

What about when it's not your fault? Because I agree with, you know, what you said, Dr. J, about the father wound. But that homeboy wound is real, too.

[Dr. J Barnett]

You know, That's a real wound, too.

[DJ Envy]

Because when I love, I love hard. So if I ever called you my brother and then you betray me in some way, it's just like, damn, it's hard to let people in.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I can't control what he does, but I can control how I handle it. And that's what happened. I couldn't control it. I was covering it, and I. I needed therapy to deal with what happened between the two of us, the previous homie. But.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And I think also to that, jt, and then to what you said. Sure. Like the same experience that he had was a. A betrayal of a close friend. I had the same thing, and it was so difficult for me because I saw men as just being. I wouldn't say just a point of contact, but just almost like, you know, it's just a. Yeah, all right. A homeboy to homeboy. But for me to call you a brother, that's. It's like, that's. That's a different level of love.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's.

[Dr. J Barnett]

It's just like when you tell somebody I love you, you know, I mean, that changes your disposition toward them. That's why I don't throw out I love you. You know what I mean? And so, because that's now. That's now a different level of expression of my. Of my feelings toward you. And I think for me, that betrayal, man, I was just like, dude, how do you even. Because when you're in your 30s and you started aging, I. I felt what he felt like, man, how do you start to build friendship again? Because we all know friendship takes time and then not on that. Friendship also requires a level of vulnerability, and I didn't want to be vulnerable like that again.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah, I think for me, it's like this. I had two of the same thing, two opposing things happening at the same time. So I guess I get betrayed by this one guy that we've been boys for 20 something years. Then I got this other guy that is trying to befriend me, all right? And he is being 100% open, saying, Hey, I don't want anything from you. I just believe I'm supposed to be here. For you. All right, this is prior to him.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And this guy's pouring his heart out, but I don't have what I need to give this guy. So it breaks this guy. It breaks him so bad to where he's like, you know what, man? I've given enough, so I got to protect me. So when I felt like I was ready once, I realized, okay, I think I'm better now, I tried to go back and repair that relationship, and he didn't receive me the way I thought he should receive me. And I went back selfish again. I was like, hey, man, I came to you. I'm apologizing. But then I realized I heard that guy. Even though I didn't have the language, I didn't have everything to give to him, but I learned it through him. He was a therapist. He's teaching me. He's. Hey, man, you heard him. Now you got to go through the process and walk that out. That's a part of me understanding, becoming more healthy, getting that toxicity out of me. Because if I hadn't learned the language, I would have been ticked off at this dude. Said, man, I came to you. I tried to.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I said, I'm sorry. I told you I didn't have the language. You can't forgive me. But that's wrong. I got to give him time to process. It is not his fault that I didn't have what it took to give him what he needed. So that's why I said, regardless of what the other individual did, you got to fix you. If you don't fix you, you can't help repair anything. It all starts with you. You have to own the responsibility of what's going on with you.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

How do you. What does that process look like? Because I. I do the same thing. I'm in the same boat. Like, literally right now, I have. I've been betrayed by friend after friend after friend, and that's fine. I'm getting all the snakes out to garden. That's cool, you know, because where I'm going, I can't take everybody. So that's fine. But even in business, I don't trust nobody. That's. That's my problem, you know? And when somebody called me a sister, same thing, you know, I got friends calling me sister, whether it's friends in business or whatever. You know, if I call you my sister or my brother. Yeah. And I feel like you do some ish, that'll make me side eye you. It's like, yo, I don't. I don't know how to look at you. I don't know how to continue to have, you know, a level of loyalty or a level of respect. You know what I mean? Or just even want to be around you. It just gets weird, you know.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I got a question for you.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Why do you keep bringing that same type of person into your life to even have to ask that question?

[Charlemagne Tha God]

I don't know how they get in. They be sneaking in. I don't be bringing in.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

They can't sneak in.

[Lauren LaRosa]

She left the window open.

[Dr. J Barnett]

So I think we all can agree, right? Like, you know, me and Sean talk about this all the time.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Right.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I mean, I think we could all agree that as we are elevated, and particularly when you are elevated in the public's eye, requires, like. Jess, I remember when you first started. Yeah, right. Just with the mess. And you know what I'm saying? When you were just doing your thing. And I think what happens is as God has elevated me, it has required a level of sagaciousness. Right. Which is discernment that I have to really operate in. Because now that you at this place, everybody wants something. And one of the things that Bishop told me, he said, you're going to have to get accustomed to disappointing people that want to be next to you.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And so what I've had to really look at and give attention to is why are you here?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

You know, like, if he would have never responded in the way that was. How long that period of time you went silent on me?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Three months.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Three months. And I would text him, Lauren, and no response. But it didn't bother me, Sean. I'll text him sometimes. It's like none of that bothers me because I know, but I. I don't go into. Did I do I. I don't go into that because the, The. The. The genuineness of who I am as a person is that whether you respond or not, I just want you to know that I'm here and that you're thought of.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And I think we have too many people now because the world has become very transactional. And let. If we're honest, most individuals. Mental health is on edge.

[DJ Envy]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Most people are just one decision away from moving into a psychosis. And I think it just requires another level of. Of. Of discernment and then also realizing what types of people do I needed in this season? You're married now. Right. So the people that you need in your life right now, it. It's not necessarily that they have to be married, but they have to be people that have a level of Authenticity, a level of genu, and wholeness, lacking nothing. Meaning that if I don't hear from you, if I can't give you nothing, you're still here, right?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yes.

[DJ Envy]

He said wholeness.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I know.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

He didn't say ho.

[DJ Envy]

I'm just making sure.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

You got to have to trust people, though.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah, I know.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

You're going to have to start trusting people and understand that a part of trust comes with being broken. I mean, that's just a part of it.

[DJ Envy]

Expound on that, Dr. Tubman, because I agree with the trust problem, with the broken.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

You got to be open to the fact that you may get hurt. So protecting yourself, you're only hurting yourself because you could be protecting yourself from what's going to actually heal you. Okay. So you could be the cause of staying in the same cycle. That because you won't trust. And so because you don't trust, you stay. You stay fractured. Okay, you got to trust people. That doesn't mean you have to trust them at the same dimension. You know that. You don't have to trust me to take care of your kids.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

You know, but you can do your work to make sure that, okay, I'm going to use him to fix my car. So how many people, how many cars have you fixed before? Do your work, do your due diligence like you do with everybody else, and then you got to step back and trust the process. But knowing the process may break down.

[DJ Envy]

Is that the same mindset as, like, not expecting you from other people?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Absolutely.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And you, I think a good friend of mine, Aiken Ayodell, told me, divorce yourself from the results and fall in love with the process.

[DJ Envy]

That's good.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That's easier said than done, though.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's easy for you to say that until you start doing it.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

So you're going to always say that. Most people say that. It's easier said than done. Try it. There's going to be lessons that you learn from being broken. There's going to be lessons that you learn from the actual relationship actually formulating. So he talked about the time that I didn't respond to him. Two months, I think it was. I didn't respond. Was it three? I didn't respond to him. I didn't respond to him. Because here's the deal. My answer is the same. Now listen to my answer is the same. I didn't have the language. I didn't have the language for what I was going through. How long are you going to use that story? But that answer is not going to Keep working for you if you want to live your best life.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But I think also.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And I'm talking about me, y', all.

[DJ Envy]

But.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

But it's.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Y'.

[Annabe (Advertiser)]

All.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But it was valid because also, you didn't really know what it was. And you spelled trust. T, I, M, E is how you really spell. Trust is time.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

The time I would. I mean, I was okay with him going through his process. And I think what broke him was this brother's not going.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

He's still there still.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Because it wasn't contingent upon him responding. And I think what most of us. It's always about, what is the response.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Because we live in such a. If I text you, most people have anxiety from. Okay, they didn't text back. The job hasn't called yet.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

You know what I mean?

[Dr. J Barnett]

And so we. We are.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

We are.

[Dr. J Barnett]

We are operating with this rapid response, you know, as God began to expand me, I didn't realize, like, just sometimes I'm overwhelmed with text messages and I can't respond. And it's not that I'm leaving you on red because I don't want to talk to it. It's like I'm overwhelmed because it's like, man, I got to process what I need to say.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Then I'm thinking about this email.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yes.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And then my manager's like, hey, can you give me this? Publicist is saying, can you send me that? So I had to realize is that I need to change my position, even within myself and to give myself grace. That, man, I don't even have the words right now. And being okay with that and then being okay with being perceived as. Oh, so you can't respond. Yeah.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Right. So you're right.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That's.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

That's me, too. See, I don't trust y'.

[DJ Envy]

All.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Y' all know too much. I'll be thinking about the other person, like, trying to think for them. You can't.

[Dr. J Barnett]

It's exhausting.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

Let me ask both of you all a question. Right? Can't time be an illusion in a relationship? And what I mean by that is you could be with some. You can know somebody for years and years and years and years and think you trust them. Right. But then they be the ones that betray you. But then you might meet somebody that you knew for a shorter period of time, and you feel more loyalty to that. To that individual.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Oh, yeah. That's a loaded question. That's a loaded question. Because you can't effectively diagnose that statement without hearing from the other individual. What is it that created Distrust in them. What is it that created them to pull back from you? They may have found something on you or in you or with you that caused them to pull away. So that's hard. That's hard. That's hard to look at. And then with this new person, is it a trauma bond? Are you connected to them because you broken over there and they were able to supply something to you because the key word you used was feel. Feelings, they. They come and go. You may feel that way right now in 30 days, and then the 31st day you feel like you felt with the last person that that changed. So we can't use that statement. I think at the day, when it comes to time, time is what it is. Whether you want to call it an illusion or whether you want to call it reality is how you invest it. Okay, what am I investing in? The moments of time with the people that I believe deserve my time.

[Dr. J Barnett]

So my question to you is, and I'm asking you this question because look at where we are today.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And to your point, Char is like Lauren and you can hop in because I would want to know your, your thoughts and process on how you've navigated this space. Because there's people that was rocking with me and I think as I began to do this, it shifted. And I think the disloyalty was also, if we're going to keep it a buck, some level of insecurity within themselves. Because most people, if they're riding with you, most people's fears is that they're going to be left behind.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah. A lot of people that if you.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Become what I see the trajectory, the trajectory that I see of you. And I think the disloyalty comes in because it's like, man, they've gotten there and nothing has happened. For me, I've seen a lot of that. And then I've seen what you're saying where people that I've met through the expo that we've been locked in, you know what I mean? Because our missions alive. And I also think too for the public is be open to levels of friendships shifting. Because your life is shifting.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That's right.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That's beautiful.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Like you, you have to be open because most people won't change. And particularly if your life changed in a major way, because they're always going to see you. How they met you and how the world is coming to know you is challenging for them because in their mind, I still see you at Lawrence from Dale State.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah. I think I've been blessed to have people who have always saw me sometimes bigger than I saw myself. So as things are going up for me, like, you know, not everything has changed, but I think the hardest thing I had to learn was I can't call everybody about everything. And when people take offense to that, I can't take it personal. And sometimes I do realize that maybe there's an insecurity in, like, you know, people are trying to, like, figure out where. Where they are positioned in my life now. It's like, well, why are you doing this now? You didn't do that a year ago when I had time to do different things or when I needed to call you more, because at that season in my life, it made more sense. So that has made me think about different things and different people and, like, not disassociating fully, but just, like, being very careful about when I bring those conversations, those people into my life and where I bring them into and what I bring them around just because I don't know how sure they are about themselves. And I don't have time to, like, I literally mentally can't.

[DJ Envy]

I'm.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I told you when you walked in here today, last night with the bed at 8pm Normally I'm at bed at like 12:30, 1 o', clock, and I'm back up at 4 or 5 because I'm doing so much to prepare for here. I don't have time to figure out your insecurities in my own at the same time, you know what I'm saying? I've just had to learn how to, like, really prioritize, realize that I can't take anything personal because people take everything personal now. And, you know, the people that make. Like, there are certain people I call about certain things now that if I were to call other people, not that I love them less, you wouldn't even understand what I'm talking about. So I just can't do that. I also been blessed to have, like, Jess, Envy and Charlemagne. So as that's happening, I could call them. Yeah, I do call him a lot, though, and be like, hey, I can't spend as much time with mom and my grandma right now, and that's breaking my heart. And they feel away. What do I do? I got family members who are like, when you come home, you so tired, you don't want to spend time with us, but we see you everywhere else. I got friends that, you know, I can't. I'm not texting back as much in a group chat anymore.

[Dr. J Barnett]

You know my business now, Lauren.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, but it's. It's a part of it. I'm lucky, though. I do have good people around me who kind of get it. But I think everybody, as a human, you want to make sure, oh, am I still important to you? You still love me? Like, am I. And that's a human thing.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Has that and I'm not and this. And it's not deep, but, like, does it in some way, you know, maybe I don't want to say impact your mental health, but, yeah, it does. Does it weigh on you?

[Lauren LaRosa]

It does. Because you feel guilty. You feel like, am I leaving people behind? Do I think I'm better than people? Like, you start second guessing things that you know are not true about yourself. Like, I know how I was raised. I know what's important to me. I know what my priorities are and all the things. But when people you love and people that have been in your life and seeing you forever feel like I'm competing with people that are just starting to see you now, you feel a sense of responsibility for that. And for me, I've had to be like. Oftentimes I sit and be like, how much of this do I need to be accountable for? And how much of this I can't, I have no control over? And that's tough. That's really, really tough. Because a lot of it, if you don't have control over, you can't control, like, literally, there's nothing I can do. So it's nothing. You feel like you're breaking something that has been, like, your stability for your whole life because of a moment that's happening, and then you second guess that, like, well, if all this stops, y' all even still gonna love me anymore because y' all feel like I'm being new to y' all and I'm not being new. I just. I can't manage everything at one time. You know what I mean? Like, that mentally weighs on you a lot.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That is so profound. Okay. Because anybody that's achieved anything is gonna go through that. And if you have a good support circle, so commendable for you, and I would soak in it. I would soak in that support circle, and then I would appreciate my support circle so that my support circle can continue to feed into me.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Because that other crew is going to always say what they feel. They don't even have an under, like you said. They don't even have the words to understand. They don't have the motions to understand what you're going through, how your life is on the rise and the demand for your life to be everywhere. But at the same time, now they want you to still do what you used to do, and you can't do it. So you've got to feed that circle.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

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[Lauren LaRosa]

All I know is what I've been told and that to half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story I'm telling you.

[Dr. J Barnett]

We know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[DJ Envy]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That y' all said.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

They literally made me say that I.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

They made me say that I poured.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava For Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Foreign.

[Hunter]

I'm Hunter, host of Hunting for Answers on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Join me every weekday as I share bite sized stories of missing and murdered Black women and girls in America. There are several ways we can all do better at protecting black women. My contribution is shining a light on our missing sisters and amplifying their disregarded stories. Stories like Tameka Anderson. As she drove toward Galvez, she was in contact with several people talking on the phone as she made her way to what should have been a routine transaction. But Tameka never bought the car and she never returned home that day. One Podcast, One Mission. Save Our Girls. Join the searches we explained. Explore the chilling cases of missing and murdered Black women and girls. Listen to Hunting for Answers every weekday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's feeding you so you can constantly stay uplifted. Cause if you don't, eventually that crew could possibly turn into that crew if you don't feed them to make sure they understand what the journey is like for you. So kudos for you for having the circle that actually can still feed you what you need to still feel normal. Because as you become more successful it seems like shots fire from everywhere. And kind of, he and I were talking about it. When you have to process publicly what you go through, what should be privately, it becomes so difficult and then that weighs so much on you mentally, especially for pastors. That's why you see so many pastors fall or commit suicide, because it's difficult to process publicly. Nobody wants to process publicly. I don't care what position you have in the world.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, I have a question for you off of that recently, everything that happened with you in Faith City, so you were there and then they sent out a letter saying no, that you will no longer be senior pastor. That was very public, especially because you know the church, they want to know what happened. No one knows why that happened. So two questions. I don't know if you can share what actually happened. And the second question, you spoke about it. How was processing that publicly, what happened?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

We disagreed. We disagreed in mission. I didn't do anything wrong, nothing illegal, but we disagreed. And the disagreement didn't allow us to go forward. So that relationship was severed. Processing it has been difficult because it's public and it hurt. I love those people. I love those people. I love him. And trying to move forward is something you have to do to live. I don't care what the career is. And if you stay in a fracture, you're going to break, you're going to crumble. So trying to move forward with a cast when everyone is already determined, predetermined what you've done and have absolutely no idea and no information. No information. It's difficult. So trying to talk to your children, pick your children up and move anywhere, no matter what the career is to get them to trust you as a father, hey, I made a right decision to pick us up and move us across the world and then have to turn to figure out how we're going to make it. The pressure of this was what it was. Now I got to figure out how to make it what it is. It's difficult as a husband, as a provider now, do I Trust in God 100%? I trust in all the skills that God has given me. And he's opened up doors that are just unbelievable for me. So process processing. It has been, I'm not going to say difficult, but it's been uneasy. But through it all, I still thank God that's not a church answer. That's my faith. Because I know all things work together.

[DJ Envy]

You know, I wish you was here this weekend because, you know, we got.

[Dr. J Barnett]

The mental welfare got called.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah. My good sister Debbie Brown came up with this. She wanted to do this panel called Reclaiming Faith Healing from Religious Trauma. And Pastor Carl lynch and Dr. Teddy Reeves are on it. And I think it was, was it Lecrae that was up here talking about church hurt? Yes, it was Lecrae. Right. It's just like, man, what do you do when, when, when your trauma comes from your sanctuary, when that hurt comes from that place? You go for salvation, man.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I, I, I think one of the things that my father's passing. 35 years walking alongside. You know him. You know, when you look at church, it's a hospital.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And it's a hospital that has a lot of sick people who don't take their meds. And when you have people who don't take their meds, you have people who don't understand how their behaviors don't understand how their reaction impacts those that are in the hospital as well. So it's almost like you in one room and you trying to get some rest, because the doctor said you need to rest. And you have somebody down here that is having a breakdown because they just heard a diagnosis that they. They can't change. And I think the unfortunate thing that has happened is that a lot of churches have not thought about mental health in the faith conversation. And I say, you can't talk faith. You can't talk God and omit mental health. When God made us, he made mind, body, and spirit. Mental health is your social. It's your emotional and physical makeup. It's how we do life. I call mental health life in motion. There is no way around it. And I think now you see in a turn, some pastors are, you know, bringing in mental health professionals, some pastors are bringing in clinicians and different things like that. Because what I saw growing up is what you speak about. I saw people that were embarrassed. Like, I can see right now this young girl when we were growing up who got pregnant, and they bring her before church, and I'm like, all right, where's the guy? So you brought the girl before church and that she's pregnant, but where's the guy? Right. It takes two to tango, right? So now you have this young girl who grows up with this level of shame and this trauma because they brought her out before, and you have a lot of embarrassment. And so I. I feel that churches have focused on saving souls, but not restoring minds.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Wow.

[Dr. J Barnett]

You have to restore a person's mind. It's great that we're going to get their spirits saved and you want people to, you know, go to heaven. But I think it's important that we begin helping people on how to not just come to the altar and throw their hands up and be, you know, delivered, but how to walk this thing out for their complete healing. Because it's one thing especially like. Like, let's just take somebody who's dealt with molestation, abandonment, rejection, and it's caused these unhealthy things. Yeah. I pray for you, lay hands on you, put oil on you. You greases like Greasy like a piece of chicken.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And you know what? I'm.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But it's like that now. This person leave, and there's no support.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And. And the reason church hurt hurts so bad because people have an expectation that I would be treated better in here than I am out there.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Right.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And it's just unfortunate, you know, that we, you know, have so many people, particularly in the black culture. Yeah. And religious trauma is a real thing. It's called rts. Religious Traumatic Syndrome. It's a real diagnosis in the dsm. And most of us are challenged with it because we thought we would see God in the very people who said, come as you are.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

But let's make sure that we're clear. The church is full of trauma. It is not absent of trauma. The very church itself was founded on trauma. Okay? Jesus being beaten, that's traumatic. Being betrayed prior to being beaten, that's traumatic. His disciples leaving him, it's traumatic. Okay? All of that's trauma. You die the most horrible death. Crown of thorns, nails in your hands, in your feet, pierced in the side, bloody and naked, that's trauma. The whole thing is trauma. The 12 or the 11 that take off running to go back to doing what they were doing prior, when they see that he's dead, they're dealing with trauma. They're like, I'm going back fishing. Forget this. I. I can't do this. Jesus comes back. There's so much trouble with them. They don't believe it, even though Jesus told them, I'm coming back.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Trauma changed the brain.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

See, the trauma? It's all trauma. Well, Jesus comes back. Boom. He restores Peter. So there's. There's the restoration that the church should have. So he restores him. Hey, feed. Do you love me? Yeah, feed my sheep. You love me. Feed my sheep. You love me. Feed my sheep. Boom. He restores him. He does his thing. Jesus gets ready to leave. He said, look, y' all go wait on the power. Wait on the power. And then they come out. So they get the power. They start evangelizing the Book of Acts. They're doing their thing. The church is built off of that. So it's got an answer, and it's got all these problems. So it's never going to be a place that you're going to go, and it's absent of trauma or it's absent of the things that you guys are talking about. I think the issue is trying to find the fine balance of this soul and spirit, body balance when it comes to how we're Giving that information. You got some churches that believe that Sunday morning is pure word driven. I'm going to teach you. I'm going to disciple you spiritually. Then you have some other churches that are a little bit more free and say, hey, we're going to do mental health stuff and therapy and fitness training on Sunday. There are other people that don't like that. I didn't come to church for that. I came to church for Genesis. I didn't come to church for that. Okay. And then you have some churches that say, we're going to put together small groups where you can come get this mental health. Then you got other churches that say, look, we. We've hired 10 therapists that are here. I think we have to go back to what I said earlier. You got to own your thing. Something may have happened at the church, okay? It's no different than it happening right here in this company. But you still got to own your thing. If this station, a problem happens here, but you all still offer therapy, is still up to me as an employee to go down to HR and say, listen, I need therapy now. I gotta do. I gotta own that.

[DJ Envy]

Now, I love your hospital analogy. I love everything that y' all saying. But if you went to a hospital where you were hurt and there was some malpractice, you probably wouldn't go back to that hospital.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It depends on. Yeah, yeah, it depends, though. But. But you.

[Dr. J Barnett]

But me personally, I'm like, I'm. I'm not going back. However, I would have to see that you are up to par. I would have to.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

No, go back. I'm coming in. I'm coming in like Superman. No, no, I'm coming back in like. I'm coming in like Superman. Hold on. Because you said I wouldn't go back. Go back to that institution at that particular.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah, I wouldn't go back to that.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That's okay.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah. But you're still going to another hospital, right?

[Dr. J Barnett]

Going to another church.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

So it's fine. They may hurt me over here at First Baptist. I'm going to Second Baptist.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I'm not going to Third Baptist.

[DJ Envy]

Because after that there's too many Baptists.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I didn't change denominations.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I think it's very. I think that we have to be careful about what you just said. You're not going back to that same local entity or. But you will continue to go and seek God and build your relationship at another institution. But you still need to do one thing before you transfer.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Go to therapy. Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Now, when we say go to therapy, jt, because we got some people that's gonna say, well, I don't believe in therapy. And particularly for us, healthcare has not been on our side. Mental health was not made for black folks. It was created for wealthy white men. And so what I tell people is that everyone is not gonna go to therapy, but there are experiences that you can have that can be therapeutic, that can encourage you on your journey. Because therapy, as we. We talked about, it's scary.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

In fact, therapy causes such a disruption that you feel worse after the session because they're breaking up stuff they got you unpacking. You know what I'm saying? They got you. They got you really thinking about things that you have moved into the back of your mind and say, you know what? I don't want to deal with that. And then, and, and, and, and, and. And if we're honest, there is a posity of clinicians right now that are not. I don't think. And I tell this to every therapist. Every therapist should have a therapist, because you cannot take and ingest all of this in from other people.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Right.

[Dr. J Barnett]

You have to go somewhere to process that. So if you do go to therapy, make sure that your therapist. Not just ethically, but make sure that they are sound even in their own practice and therapy. Finding a therapist, just like dating, ask those questions. Do you have an expertise in dealing with racial trauma? Have you worked with people who've been molested by the same sex? Like, you have to ask those questions. Because the worst thing that I hate, that I don't like, rather, is for someone to be open up and not closed properly as what you just said. You go and have surgery, and these jokers leave something in you, or they don't close you up properly. Now it's turned into an infection. Now it's turning the gangrene. Now all of a sudden, we got to move your whole liver because somebody mishandled you properly, I was gonna say.

[Lauren LaRosa]

But okay, we're comparing it to malpractice in hospital. What I realized about hospitals is a lot of it is trial and error, and a lot of it is per person. Right.

[Dr. J Barnett]

That's why it's called practice.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, practice. Right. So I say that to say you can ask your therapist or all those questions, but you don't know until you get with that therapist if they're going to close you back up properly. And then that makes people not want to do therapy sometimes after that happens. So it's like, what do you tell people then?

[Dr. J Barnett]

Well, therapy, you know, it's a Relationship. The effectiveness of any therapist is determined by the quality of relationship that they build with the client. When I'm working with individuals and when I was in private practice, it would be about four sessions in before I start asking deep questions, because I'm mapping with them. I'm just talking to them because I want them to feel like we're having a conversation. Nobody wants to go in. And all of a sudden it's like, all of a sudden, you know, what happened to you as a kid? Like, wait a minute, right? Like you moving too fast. You know, it's like, you know, at least, you know, talk sweet to me. No, please take me to the Cheesecake Factory song. And so I think, too, it's a journey. You know, I've been saying this since I've, you know, have been in this space. Healing is a journey, man. It's truly a journey. And it may take a few therapists for you to kind of work through. And I know that can be emotionally exhausting. And this is why I'm careful for anybody. Do not go in divulging everything. Use wisdom. That is my thing. When you're going into a clinical session. Because I've had people come to me and it's like, well, Dr. J, the session turned into me helping my therapist, you know, and so you're right, Lauren. It can be very. It can be very scary. And then two, if you have somebody who hasn't been processed, and I tell every therapist, you can only take the client as deep as the work that you've done internally within yourself, because it can be become very pernicious, very dangerous for somebody to open up. And then all of a sudden they leave feeling like, man, what did I just do?

[Charlemagne Tha God]

I just told you my business, and.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

That is what I want to add to it. You're going to be 20, you're going to be 25. You're going to be 30. You're going to be 35, you're going to be 40. Going to be 45, you'll be 50, and you're going to be 55. You're going to be 60, and you're going to be 65. At what point are you going to say, I matter enough to express myself? That's good, because you're going to. You're going to continue to get old if you don't die. And do you have to ask your question? How has life been working for me? I'm the one that won't talk. I'm the one that won't sit down and Actually get help. It's not the therapist's fault. And it's not about fault.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's about me giving me a try to be better because I deserve to be better. Yeah. And that process, it is what it is. It's not cookie cutter. Mine's not going to be what Jay's is not going to be what Charlemagne's is. It's going to be what it takes to get me to where I need to be. And you gotta ask yourself the question, am I worth what it takes to get where I need to be? And where I need to be is not where you are. It's where I need to be.

[DJ Envy]

I think. Yeah. You gotta stop lying to yourself. Right? Like, at some point, you just gotta be honest with who. Who you know you are. Because we know each other.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

You. You know yourself better than anybody gotta be honest with who you are and what you're feeling. And I think one of the hardest things for men to say to other men and just in general. Yo, that hurt my feelings or you.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Hurt my feelings, period. Yo, period. You know, that's a good thing. I'm about to be real hood right here.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Let's do it.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

What happened?

[DJ Envy]

I want you to bring out one of them brain love hoodies. That is hard.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I know.

[DJ Envy]

I said that.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Hey, the fight, so.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. J Barnett]

I'm gonna do the promotion for you. Good brother.

[DJ Envy]

The fight. You find yourself.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Wow. My good brother, Dr. Joel. I'm gonna let him talk about it, but I'm excited because he's had to live this book in real time.

[Annabe (Advertiser)]

Yes.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And I think this book, it comes out November 4th.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

November 4th.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And it's so powerful.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

November 4th.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Okay. Okay.

[DJ Envy]

Absolutely.

[Dr. J Barnett]

So I think it's so powerful because if it's going to be a fight to find yourself, you know, you know, we've been rocking for years, and, you know, every time I share, you know, my story about surviving two suicide attempts, I, I. It was a fight. Because, you know, we talked about when. Even when Twitch passed, it was triggering to me. It's a fight to find yourself, man. So this book, it's gonna cost you something.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

It's gonna cost you something. That's why when you. When we were there, it was the perfect way for me to just break it up. It cost to find you. It cost you. It cost pride. It costs relationships. And you have to ask yourself the question, am I willing to pay that price to find myself? And is it going to be embarrassing? Probably. Are there going to be some things that come up that you thought Would never come up, probably. But if you think you're valuable enough to be who you know you're supposed to be, it's worth the fight. Because most of the time in our life, it's all about what we do. It's about what you do. What you do is what's getting you paid, your performance. And so we become so performance driven. Everything we do is based off performance. And so just like you just said earlier, 4 o' clock in the morning, 8 o' clock at night, that's our lives. Because we got to perform. We got to be on an A game every time we get behind a microphone. It doesn't matter. But there's no mic in your private life. There's no mic with your emotions. There's no mics with how you love your mother, your children, you know, your spouse. And you got to figure out, how do I fight to just be me? And if I don't know who I am, it becomes even harder because I got to dig through performance to get there. And once you dig through all of the awards and dig through all of the accolades, what's there? Who am I at the core? And if you can't say who you are without presenting what you do, it's a very cloudy picture that you have no idea who you are. And I didn't find out who I was until I was 44 years old, and I said it on a public stage and other men said, I can't believe you just did that. And I cried.

[Lauren LaRosa]

What did you say?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I don't know who I am. And you know what they said? We've seen you preach on stages all over the world with thousands of people. You're all over the place. People are being blessed, people buying all your books. And I said, yeah, and I don't know who I am.

[DJ Envy]

Doesn't that change all the time, though? When I started going to therapy in 36, I was the same way. I was like, damn, I thought I knew who I was, but I have no idea. But then, like, the older I get, you evolve. Yeah, you evolve. The more things change in your life. You know, you grow as a father, you grow as a husband, and you just get older, and you just like, man, who am I?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

And that it's normal. And you have to continue to fight to find and lean into it, who you are and lean into it, that it's actually okay, that this is a normal fight and learn how to fight. Fight right. As one of the chapters in the book, Fight right because we fight wrong. We fight wrong. We fight through, you know, substance abuse. We fight other people. We fight with unhealthy practices. And when you can learn how to fight right and actually say healthy things to yourself and to other people, you actually become a gold mine to you. You know what I mean? And you don't have to have other people to tell you that you're valuable. You realize that you really are an incredible person and that God loves you the way you are. I think it's incredible.

[DJ Envy]

I had to see it up close. I thought that was Judge Matthews at first. This is this first chapter, why we don't believe what God says about us.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah, man.

[DJ Envy]

What's that about?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Well, he loves you. He loves you. And if you can get to the point that he actually loves you and you're not waiting on you to say it and you to say it and you to say it and you to say it, then I can emerge from ashes, man, because I know that he actually loves me. When Jesus gets ready to get baptized by John the Baptist, what happens? He gets baptized, and God says, this is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. That's all he needed to hear.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Was his father say, I love him. I love him.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And that valid.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I love him. Validated everything, because next thing he does, he goes into the wilderness, and the devil's telling. If you do this, if you do that, if he didn't have to do any of that because he was already loved prior to going into what he was getting ready to battle for. So we just got to learn that, hey, he loves me like I am. Broken, busted, disgusted. That's the foundation and of everything. He loves me. And if I can start there, man, you can rise through anything, but it's all about you actually being truthful to yourself and say, you know what? I'm gonna come to you like I am, because you actually love me like I am. Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

That'll keep you from having a positive. Come on, brother.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And I think when you. When you embrace that, man, that. That love, that there is an assurance that you have within self that you're not waiting for something to happen. Because oftentimes we. We move with God in a performative way where if I do good, I can accept his love, and if I do well, I can get some of his blessings. And I think that chapter is good, man, because racially, what you're saying, if you did nothing else beyond just being you, his love is not changing for you, man.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Here's the beauty of it, which is when I Made that statement on stage. I went with him on a trip, and we had been going around for, I think, two years, and we had went back around to Columbus, Ohio. And so when we go out on stage, we have this, hey, you know, we're gonna start this way. We gonna go this way. We're gonna segue to this way. Hey, Joe, you take it here. That's kind of how we always hit it. So when it got time for me to tell this particular story, kind of how we always rotate, I stopped dead in the middle of the story. I said, man, I'm not telling this story no more. And all of the guys was looking like there's about 800 men in the room, black men. I'm not telling this story no more. I said, man, I'm sorry. And they like, jt, go ahead. He's like, jt, what? Go on and speak. I said, I'm tired of telling this story because I'm having to relive this story every time I tell you this story. And so I decided that moment, I said, I'm gonna tell y' all a new story. I said, and it's not a story that hasn't happened yet. It's the story I want to see. And when I said what I wanted to see, it wasn't a dry eye in the room, because I was going through the opposite of what I was saying. That's how I end that book. Write a new story. You want to get healthy mentally? Write your story. Create a new narrative. Create a new narrative. You don't have to keep replaying the same thing that happened to you. And I know it was terrible, and I know it cost, and I know it hurt. But every time you tell it, you feel the cost again. You feel the terror again. You feel the pain again. And it becomes so cyclical. Well, why not write what you want? Why not see what you want to see? And that's what's going to happen when you fight to find yourself, because you control the narrative. And you can be who you want to be. You can make what you want to make. You can marry who you want to marry. You can do what you want to do. That's the kind of power that you actually possess. If you can wake up to it and realize a real preacher, go pre.

[DJ Envy]

Order the fight to find yourself moving from uncertain to unstoppable right now to be in bookstores November 4th. This is a powerful conversation to have on World Mental Health Day, man.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yeah, man. And always, brother, you know, I love, love you, man. To the Moon and back, man, and always, man. We've been rocking. For the past six or five years, we've been doing the. The Expo, man. I, you know, I just got to share this, man. One of his chapters is. Is about our friendship, man. And, and, and I would say get some people in your life, man, that just see you.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Like, he was coming up here to support me today.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And our friendship has been on display. And so many men are watching me just stand with him, even in his. His situation. But just the beauty of man, you know, this blesses me, right? This is my dog. To see the world. Get to hear him this morning on the Breakfast Club, you know, and to be amongst y', all, man. So this is just beautiful. And this is what mental health really is. Because when you start to think better, you begin to live better and you start to attract better. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Let me say this, please. I came to support him. He's a brother that supports me in everything that I do. And I wanted to be here for him. And I was sitting in there, and then you walk in the room and just say, y' all want to do it together? And walked off. Didn't say nothing else. Didn't wait for me to respond or nothing. And I'm like. Then he looked at me and said, you want to do it? I'm like, yeah. He said, come on. And so I'm saying that to say this, you position yourself with good people. You said something earlier. I don't look for him to give me anything. I'm here for him, and it's vice versa. And because we're friends and we've positioned ourselves to support each other, we've opened up a new business together.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yes.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I mean, mental health practice.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Congratulations.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Thank you.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Things just have been happening for us, so I don't take it lightly. Thank you for the opportunity to come share in your space. And it's a blessing, man. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[DJ Envy]

You can see Dr. J. He'll be at the Mental Wealth Expo tomorrow in Newark, New Jersey, at the Joel and Diane Bloom Wellness and Event center. I wish Dr. Tubman was there, too, man.

[Dr. J Barnett]

No, he got it. Got a preacher.

[Lauren LaRosa]

It's Live Stream.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I don't know if they're streaming or not. I know it's a conference in Carolina for Bishop Michael Blue tomorrow night.

[DJ Envy]

Where?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Somewhere in South Carolina, I think. Columbia, South Carolina. That's correct. Is that right?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Columbia, South Columbia, South Carolina. I'll be with him tomorrow night. What time Is your expo?

[DJ Envy]

11 to 4 on Saturday.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

I have to do a wellness event in Florida which will be mental health and physical fitness and everything else that you can imagine.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

Please go to Florida. They need all the wellness they can get.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Be reporting every day. Somebody from Florida. Man, them people different, bro.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Listen to R now. Come on now, back up off of us. Come on back up off of us.

[DJ Envy]

But you know, the work, not just this weekend, I mean this work is continuing. I do wanted to ask about the Brain Love merch though.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Yes. So this is my good brother Archie, man, down in Atlanta, Georgia. This brand is in Bloomingdale's in Atlanta. Brain Love. He created this, this around mental health and getting a healthy brain and the work that he's doing. Me and him partner to come together. And this, this collection is in Bloomingdale. I mean, y' all see the material. And so he's also told me, I spoke to him. He's also gonna send everybody here gear. So you guys are rock. So yeah. And the materials is amazing. And really his, his message is really to get us a healthier brain.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

And then you see the messages on the back, you know, telling, you know, to tell ourselves that we love ourselves and, and for black people. Listen, man, our mental health is everything. And particularly in this time politically and, and in this time that we're in that so much is attacking us. Take care of your mind.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Be careful of what you consume. Too much consumption of this negativity with the news. I mean, every day we. It's something with this clown, you know, Y' all know what the clown talking about. But, but man, that. Because this crash out era that we're seeing right now is just overwhelming. People are just losing it. So encourage everybody, man. Keep your brain healthy.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, that's right. It's Dr. J. Barnett. Dr. Joel Tubman. Thank you brothers, man.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

[DJ Envy]

It's the Breakfast Club.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Hold up.

[DJ Envy]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up.

[Dr. J Barnett]

The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

Y' all finished or y' all done?

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever, wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Hunter]

I'm Hunter, host of Hunting for Answers on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Join me every weekday as I share bite sized stories of missing and murdered black women and girls in America. Stories like Erica Hunt, a young mother vanished without a trace after a family gathering on 4th of July weekend 2016. No goodbyes, no clues, just gone. Listen to Hunting for Answers every weekday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you. 100% of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Track down the gang they suspect of.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Dr. J Barnett]

Had 30 agents ready to go with.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Shotguns and rifles and you name it. Five, six white people pushed me in the car.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

I'm going, what the hell?

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[Charlemagne Tha God]

All you gotta do is receive the package.

[DJ Envy]

Don't have to open it, just accept it.

[Dr. Joel Tubman]

She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown sound on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an iHeart podcast.