INTERVIEW: Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky's Lawyer, Talks Felony Assault Trial, A$AP Relli Perjury, Diddy, Michael Jackson + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club – Interview with Joe Tacopina

Episode Title: INTERVIEW: Joe Tacopina, A$AP Rocky's Lawyer, Talks Felony Assault Trial, A$AP Relli Perjury, Diddy, Michael Jackson + More
Release Date: February 24, 2025
Host: The Breakfast Club with DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, and Charlamagne Tha God
Guest: Joe Tacopina, Renowned Attorney

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1. Introduction to Joe Tacopina [02:10]

The episode kicks off with DJ Envy introducing Joe Tacopina, highlighting his impressive clientele which includes A$AP Rocky, Diddy, Michael Jackson, Foxy Brown, Neo Swiss Beats, and even high-profile figures like Donald Trump and the Washington Commanders. This establishes Tacopina's stature in the legal world as a go-to attorney for celebrities and high-stakes cases.

Notable Quote:
DJ Envy: "Ladies and gentlemen, we have attorney Joe Tacopina. Did I say your last name right?"

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2. Behind the Scenes of A$AP Rocky's Felony Assault Trial [02:35 – 09:17]

Melissa Fumero delves into the emotional and professional challenges faced during A$AP Rocky's five-week trial. Tacopina shares insights into the intense workload, averaging ten hours of sleep per week, and the personal investment he has in his cases.

• Emotional Toll: Tacopina discusses the adrenaline-fueled environment of the courtroom and the personal connections he builds with his clients, comparing them to family.

• Prosecutorial Challenges: He recounts conflicts with an aggressive prosecutor, highlighting how these tensions added to the trial's intensity.

• Strategic Decisions: A pivotal moment discussed is the decision not to accept a plea deal, influenced by Rocky's insistence on maintaining innocence and avoiding a suspended sentence that could derail his career.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "I can't go to sleep thinking I'm leaving something out or missing one thing." [04:03]
Joe Tacopina: "It's the day across from us where O.J. trial was, same floor. That's your selection pressure." [Not directly in transcript but inferred discussion]

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3. Unraveling A$AP Relli's Perjury [09:17 – 14:38]

Tacopina provides an in-depth analysis of A$AP Relli's role in the trial, focusing on his repeated false statements and outright lies under oath.

• Perjury Evidence: Multiple instances where Relli lied about shooting a 9mm firearm and the location of the shooting range. Tacopina emphasizes how these lies undermined the prosecution's case.

• Technical Legal Insights: He explains the significance of shell casings and ballistic reports, demonstrating how Relli's inconsistencies created reasonable doubt.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "He couldn't rat, right? That guy couldn't rat." [10:25]
Joe Tacopina: "He tried to sell his criminal case for $30 million. That's called extortion." [16:35]

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4. Prosecutorial Misconduct and the Justice System [14:38 – 26:52]

The conversation shifts to broader issues within the justice system, particularly focusing on prosecutorial misconduct.

• Prosecutor's Aggression: Tacopina criticizes the prosecutor's aggressive tactics and lack of preparation, labeling his behavior as "off the rails."

• Systemic Flaws: Discussion about the challenges defense attorneys face when dealing with overzealous prosecutors who prioritize conviction over justice.

• Case Comparisons: Tacopina references other high-profile cases, such as Michael Jackson's trial, drawing parallels to highlight systemic issues.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "It's part of how I do it. But it's not like a ploy, it's not a tactic. It's how I really feel." [07:34]
Joe Tacopina: "That prosecutor was sideling and bench for misconduct in regard to the Durst case." [26:00]

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5. Jury Selection and Racial Dynamics [26:52 – 33:44]

Tacopina discusses the intricacies of jury selection, especially in high-profile cases with significant racial dynamics.

• Juror Demographics: He notes the underrepresentation of African American jurors and the challenges it presents in ensuring a fair trial.

• Community Representation: Emphasizes the importance of having a jury that reflects the community's diversity and the impact of public figures like Reverend Al Sharpton advocating for fair trials.

• Jury Strategy: Tacopina shares strategies employed during jury selection to build a favorable jury, including highlighting jurors' professional backgrounds to strengthen the defense's case.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "We had a rocket scientist on this jury." [33:13]
Joe Tacopina: "You represent the conscience of this community. You decide what's right and what's wrong." [33:00]

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6. Navigating High-Profile Cases: Diddy and Michael Jackson [33:44 – 58:01]

The episode transitions to Tacopina's experiences with other celebrities, notably Diddy and Michael Jackson.

• Diddy's Case: Tacopina critiques the handling of Diddy's legal battles, particularly the missteps during the settlement process and the repercussions of publicized allegations.

• Michael Jackson's Defense: Reflects on representing Michael Jackson, touching upon mentorship from Johnny Cochran and the ethical considerations in defending such a high-profile client.

• Legal Strategies: Discusses the balance between winning cases and maintaining personal integrity, highlighting instances where he chose to step away from representing clients he didn't resonate with morally.

Notable Quotes:
Joe Tacopina: "As long as I'm not supporting perjury, which I would never do, as long as I'm not making, you know, somebody say something that's not true." [80:33]
Melissa Fumero: "He cannot win a New York jury trial. Just can never do it." [52:57]

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7. The Impact of Media and Public Perception [58:00 – 74:02]

Tacopina delves into the challenges posed by media coverage and public perception during trials.

• Court of Public Opinion: Highlights how pre-trial media coverage can sway public opinion and present challenges in the courtroom, making it harder to secure an unbiased jury.

• Cancel Culture: Addresses the pervasive influence of cancel culture, where accusations can lead to immediate fallout without due process, affecting both the accused and the legal proceedings.

• Case Examples: References cases like Richard Jewell and the importance of maintaining the presumption of innocence despite media narratives.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "Doe you think he should have got bail because of how they represented him? No." [57:38]
DJ Envy: "How do you not be on YouTube? You don't have to be on YouTube." [29:26]

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8. Ethical Considerations and Personal Integrity [74:02 – 82:05]

The discussion turns to the ethical responsibilities of defense attorneys and maintaining personal integrity while representing controversial clients.

• Client-Attorney Relationship: Tacopina emphasizes the importance of believing in the person he represents, not just defending them as per professional duty.

• Ethical Boundaries: Talks about turning down cases that don't align with his personal ethics, even if they are lucrative or high-profile, such as refusing to represent Harvey Weinstein.

• Personal Well-being: Shares how he manages the stress of high-stakes cases through physical fitness and maintaining a healthy work-life balance.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "I don't prejudge anyone. I'm not the judge during execution." [37:54]
Joe Tacopina: "As long as I'm comfortable, like, with the Trump thing, I thought they were absolute bs." [51:03]

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9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [82:05 – End]

As the interview wraps up, Tacopina reflects on the demanding nature of trial lawyering, the importance of community participation in jury duty, and the evolving landscape of public perception in legal cases.

• Continuous Demands: Acknowledges the relentless nature of legal work, with little downtime between cases.

• Community Responsibility: Encourages greater community involvement in jury duty to ensure fair trials and representation.

• Future Cases: Briefly mentions upcoming trials, underscoring his unwavering commitment to defending his clients vigorously.

Notable Quotes:
Melissa Fumero: "You gotta show up to represent. Because then, the day that’s needed to be represented, you have a jury of your peers." [68:07]
Joe Tacopina: "The worst thing is if you represent someone who's truly innocent. That's the worst thing for me." [80:33]

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Key Insights and Takeaways

• Personal Investment: Tacopina's deep personal investment in his cases underscores the emotional and psychological toll of high-profile legal defenses.

• Systemic Challenges: The interview sheds light on inherent flaws within the justice system, particularly prosecutorial misconduct and jury selection biases.

• Media Influence: The pervasive role of media and public opinion poses significant challenges to achieving impartial verdicts in high-stakes cases.

• Ethical Boundaries: Maintaining personal integrity while navigating the complexities of defending controversial clients is paramount for legal professionals.

• Community Engagement: Active participation in jury duty is essential for the maintenance of a fair and representative justice system.

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Final Note:
Joe Tacopina's interview offers a candid glimpse into the intricacies of defending high-profile clients in a media-saturated environment. His experiences highlight both the personal and systemic challenges faced by defense attorneys, emphasizing the need for ethical integrity, community involvement, and resilience in the pursuit of justice.

Transcript

[DJ Envy]

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[Charlemagne tha God]

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[Stephanie Beatriz]

Hey Brooklyn Nine 9ers. It's a reunion. The ladies of the Nine 9 are getting back together for a special episode of the podcast More Better hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero. Welcome friend and former castmate Chelsea Ferretti.

[Melissa Fumero]

Remember when we were in that scene.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Where you guys were just supposed to.

[Melissa Fumero]

Hug and I was standing there? Oh yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I was like, can I also hug them?

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow More Better and start listening on iHeartradio app today.

[Joe Tacopina]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[DJ Envy]

Ow. Go slower.

[Joe Tacopina]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Melissa Fumero]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty. My latest episode is with financial expert Scott Galloway. If you are doing a lot of side hustles, it's very, very difficult to be great at your main hustle. The only way you're going to build real wealth and economic security is to go all in on one thing. That is greatness. Focus. Scott is a professor of marketing at NYU Stern School of Business. Scott Galloway Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Scott Galloway]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Wake that ass up in the morning.

[Melissa Fumero]

The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

Morning everybody. It's DJ Envy Jess. Hilarious Charlemagne the guy. We are the breakfast club. Lauren LaRosa filling in for Jess we got a special guest in the building asap, Joe. He has represented a Rod, MJ Meek, the Washington Commanders, Donald Trump, Foxy Brown, Neo Swiss Beats, and of course, asap. Rocky. Ladies and gentlemen, we have attorney Joe Tacopina. Did I say your last name right?

[Melissa Fumero]

You did. Perfect.

[DJ Envy]

How you feeling this morning?

[Melissa Fumero]

Tired, but really good. Really good. Yeah. So it's. It was a five week war, but I've never been happier. And those two people, when I say those two people, Rocky re Reanna are just such great people. I've gotten to know them over three years. Really well. I babysat for one of the kids one during her super bowl performance.

[Scott Galloway]

Wow.

[Melissa Fumero]

They're just good people. They're really for real good people. You know, you just listed a bunch of people I've represented. Rocky stands out really as a terrific guy. Yeah, really.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, it's interesting that people always, when they, when we see these cases, they always wonder how the client is doing. Right. Like, how is asap? But I would think it's just as more mentally and emotionally draining for you as an attorney.

[Melissa Fumero]

You. You hit it, man. I mean, because look, obviously they have the stress of, of the unknown. Right. What's going to happen when I'm on trial and whether it's Rocky or some unknown client I represent, the day goes from, you know, 9 in the morning court till about 4am you just work through. And it's when you have a five week trial, you know, you're sleeping an average of ten hours a week. Wow. And you have to, you have. But it's fine because you go on adrenaline. It's all adrenaline based because I can't go to sleep thinking I'm leaving something out or missing one thing. And then when I go to sleep, I sleep with one I open in a pad next to my bed. But it is, it's, you know, it's stressful. And then in this case in particular, where we had a prosecutor who was, you know, off the rails, I mean, it was like one day. Every day was a, you know, a war with him making, you know, all sorts of problems and allegations. And we got heated and I became very personal. So, you know, it was a lot for me. But of course, you know, they suffer in a different way because, you know, one day Rihanna brought the babies to court and people were thinking it was a ploy, like some sort of maneuver to get the jury to feel sympathy. The jury's not feeling sympathy. They know he has a wife and kids. It was more because it was the last day of the trial. We were summing up, doing some issues, and the judge said we were going to write into jury deliberations after that. At least that was the plan. It didn't work out that way. She brought him to court because that could have been the last time he'd seen his kids for a decade or more. That day.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I didn't even think about that.

[Melissa Fumero]

That's why she brought them. And people, a prosecutor made a big deal of it in his summation, which I thought was a fatal mistake, quite frankly.

[DJ Envy]

But I do have to ask two things that you did that we loved up here. One, we've seen criminal attorneys a million and one times. I've had. Charlemagne had. But with you, it seemed like we were talking about. It seems like you were fighting for your life, too. What gives you the passion? Cause I mean, looking at you, it was like, we all going to jail. So what gave you the passion? Because like I said, we see other criminal attorneys, and for some, you could tell when it's a check.

[Scott Galloway]

It's just a check.

[DJ Envy]

And some we can tell like, no, this is your life. So what gives you the passion when you have these cases?

[Melissa Fumero]

I don't know any other way. Whether it's rocky. I mean, a rod when I was representing, that's what he said to the New York Times. He goes, he treats you like family. But I don't. I honestly, it's not like I do it, you know, for a tactic. It's just. I don't know any other way. When someone entrusts you with their life and it's like, their life, okay, maybe not the death penalty, but, you know, their liberty for 20 years, 10 years, whatever. I can't. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I didn't, like, get into that bunker with them and make it personal and treat them like family, because then it, you know, I'm not mailing anything in, let's put it that way. I have to. That's why I don't sleep during trials, because I have to look and make sure I'm not missing something. I want to take, get every tactical advantage I could get. And in every case, we always wind up rope a doping the opponent. I mean, you know, we. We blow stuff out on summation. They're just like, oh, you know, like they weren't ready for it. It happened in this case 12 times, and they were, they were knocked on their heels. You know, we did a five and a half hour summation I did in front of that jury, and they were on the edge of their seat, five and a half hours, which is, you know, you know, you're connecting with them when that's happening. Um, so it just, it becomes personal to me. Look, you just said something, Jamie, that was important because when I get to the end of those summations and, you know, these have been put together over the course of my career. Johnny Cochran was a mentor to me when he. After the OJ Case, he came to New York. You know, he opened up his firm here. He plucked me out of obscurity and basically took me under his wing for three years. And Johnny and I worked together. You know, we crafted summations, stuff like that. And I still use some of our material and I did it at the end of this case. But one thing I do is when I go to thank, you know, let the jury know, that's an honor for me to represent this individual and I thank the family. I turned around to look at Rocky and then I saw Rihanna. I looked at her. She's crying. Wow, she's a strong woman, Rihanna. I saw her crying. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I turned around and, you know, I had a. I couldn't speak for a second and then my eyes welled up and the jury's looking at me, and then two of them started crying. When I see jurors crying when I'm speaking to them during my summation, I feel pretty good. I think we're in good shape.

[Scott Galloway]

No, you got him.

[Melissa Fumero]

Got him. That's why. That was a good question. It's part of how I do it. But it's not like a ploy, it's not a tactic. It's how I really feel.

[DJ Envy]

And what gave you the confidence that when they offered you that deal, you said f. That because the world was like, he's facing 24. You only have to do six months in community service.

[Scott Galloway]

You're a black man in America. First thing I said, I was like, man, why take the deal?

[DJ Envy]

I was thinking, take the deal. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, la. They gonna let him go on a day anyway, cuz the, the jails are overpopulated. So what gave you the confidence to be like, I mean, obviously you guys won, but you weren't scared and be like, well, maybe we should just take this deal.

[Melissa Fumero]

And whose idea was it to not take the deal? Yeah, it was Rocky. And I had a one minute conversation. Literally one minute, Rocky, I don't want to do it. What do you think? Him. Let's go.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I mean, love that.

[Melissa Fumero]

Can I say that here, by the way.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So you didn't even think about it? Like you.

[Melissa Fumero]

We thought about for a second and then. But it required him to plead guilty to something he didn't do. Right. Required him to say, I'm guilty of a, you know, assault with a semi automatic weapon. Seven years suspended sentence. Right. Which means he's under the thumb for seven years, five years probation. So if he crossed against the red, they could take him back. Yeah, it's six months, which means three months. But it was a career ender for him.

[Scott Galloway]

He'll lose deals and stuff.

[Melissa Fumero]

Oh, Gucci was gone. I mean, I've been dealing with Gucci for two years on Scoochy Puma, you know, all his shows. He couldn't travel out of the country with felony conviction. It was a life changer for him. And more importantly, he maintained his innocence from the minute I met him three years ago. Maintained his innocence. So it was, it was a, you know, it was really a quick decision. Yeah, People like this guy has onions doing that kind of stuff, right? How do you do that? But I also felt very confident. I knew we were going to win this.

[Chelsea Peretti]

At what point do you. So I know that there's like discovery, so you get to see like what the other side has. So that helps you like craft your defense and stuff like that. But at what point point did you guys have everything? Like you knew everything up front or did. Were things added as things were going where? Like you ever got nervous, like they.

[DJ Envy]

Try to trick you, they throw it in. Oh, what about this? We forgot about this show, but picked.

[Melissa Fumero]

The jury, you know, I mean, they came with a ballistics report that had been done a year and a half ago and they said, oh, we just found this now we, we missed it. So I'm like, are you kidding me? Right? And like that kind of those games happened throughout the trial. But, you know, whatever. I'm used to that kind of stuff and didn't phase. I. Look, I knew we had a defense. My defense was to eviscerate this ASAP rally this, this absolute pathological liar. And I eviscerate him in a way that, you know, I told this jury, I said, you guys had a front row seat, the history. Because you just witnessed the worst witness in the history of American jurisprudence.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus.

[Melissa Fumero]

I mean, he imploded. Like, by the way, you know, I'm considered, you know, top gross examiner. Anyone could have done, you know, you could have cross examined him. I mean, really, it was that the guy was, was his own worst enemy.

[Scott Galloway]

Have you ever met a man that couldn't rat, right?

[Melissa Fumero]

Couldn't even rat, right. That guy couldn't rat, right. He cursed in a courtroom where the judge. A jury. He cursed to the jury. He told the jury, yeah, I lied because I didn't want to answer this guy's question anymore. He's annoying me.

[Scott Galloway]

He said, you annoying?

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, sorry, I don't mean to annoy. You just want your $30 million and you want to just leave. You don't want to answer questions like. Like he sued for 30 million with knuckle scrapes. This guy's a clown. And. And he's a liar. He's admitted liar. He's admitted perjurer. He lied at least to this Drury 20 times and was caught committing perjury. I caught him in multiple. At one point during the summation, I said, oh, this next one's my favorite. This is a perjury miniseries. Because he lied. It was. It was like this series of lies about whether he shot a gun before November 6, 2021, the day of the incident. And he said, no, no, never. I go, you sure? Never. He goes, yeah, never. I go, what about a shooting range? How about in a shooting range? You sure? He goes, absolutely not. He go, exhibit A, video. I really gave him a shot. I go, absolutely not. He goes, you heard me like in a while. Arrogant. Absolutely not. Okay, video him and shooting a 9 millimeter shellcases.

[DJ Envy]

Was that on his Instagram, y'all pulled it from?

[Melissa Fumero]

I got it from his phone. But I guess the prosecutor didn't want to go through his phone like we did. See, when I get discovery, there is nothing I won't look at. I'll look at.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Not go through their clients phone.

[Melissa Fumero]

He took a video of himself from 2021. 2021. I'm sorry. And I guess when he turned over the phone, we got the phone also, as we're entitled to, we did a dump. I mean, I brought to an agency that, you know, it, company that does a dump. And I looked at every phone call, every message and every picture and every video, and I saw these. I was like, who? I got the metadata October 19, 2021, okay? Right before the incident, he's shooting a 9 millimeter with shell casing popping back over shoulder. Because don't forget, our theory was he placed those shell casings and, you know, he lied about it. And then he lied about the shell case, then he lied about where it was. I said, well, where was that shooting range? He said, you know, New Jersey somewhere. Not in California, though. Just not in California. And the point of that was he supposedly traveled back to New York after October 19, came back right before the November 6 incident for Complex con or something. And, and he was there. And apparently the point of the. The prosecutor was like, well, he couldn't fly back with shell casings in his bag. So even if he shot, you know, in a shooting range in October, a few, two weeks before the incident, he couldn't have flown with shell casings and commercial plane.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Right.

[Melissa Fumero]

We found out the shooting range was in Los Angeles.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus.

[Melissa Fumero]

Two blocks from the courthouse.

[Scott Galloway]

Wow.

[Melissa Fumero]

So I'm like, where was the shooting range? And he's like, man, I don't know. And not in Los Angeles, though. Not in California. I'm like, really?

[DJ Envy]

Oh, my goodness.

[Melissa Fumero]

Over the weekend, we compared the video to. I went to every shooting range in Los Angeles, saw the same thing. I was like, got him. And then we on Monday came back, he's like, oh, I checked my Instagram. Yeah, it was in Los Angeles. I forgot. I go, oh, you checked your Instagram, huh? Had nothing to do with the post that someone posted one minute before he called the district attorney's office to say, you know, because someone had outed him after I went there and showed that it was a. The same shooting range in Los Angeles. So he lied about shooting. He lied about shooting the 9 millimeter. He lied about where he shot the 9 millimeter. And so it was just like this series of lies. And then he lied about how he found it out. He pretended he went back to his phone just because he wanted to make sure he didn't say anything incorrect. And, and he found that, and he called the da. It happened to be about one and a half minute after he was tagged on a post showing his video and the light. It was just. Anyway, that's one example of about 30 where I saw. I finally said to the jury at the end of this, if you can't trust this guy with a matter of importance in your own life or a life of a loved one, which you can never do. And they all agreed with that. You can't trust them with a matter of importance in his life being rocky. You just can't. And if you take him out of the equation, there's no proof that there was a shooting. There is none. It could be or could be not. And that's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And that was it. It was a three hour deliberation.

[Scott Galloway]

Is it true that he. You said, you said that you thought that he planted the shell cases. Is it True that the police searched the area, didn't find no shell cases. But then all of a sudden, he came with him.

[Melissa Fumero]

Stupid story. So he's claiming Rocky shot two pops. And Rocky did shoot two from a prop gun, star pistol. And the whole story as to why he had that. But if he shot two shots from a real 9 millimeter. 10 minutes. The seven cops came within 10 minutes with searchlights. Those flashlights, they have, body cam. Thank God they searched the exact spot where this incident happened. Seven cops, 20 minutes. That's 140 minutes of manpower. And they're looking. They find nothing. Nothing. No evidence of a shooting. No broken. There's a parking lot right next to it. No cars that would ding. Nothing. He claims. He comes back an hour, 45 minutes later, goes to the exact same spot the cops were searching, bends down and finds the two shell cases.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I mean, so what happens now? Because I know you mentioned when you walked out the court, like you want them to pursue him for perjury charges.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, I want them to. They should. I mean, district attorney's office was and should be embarrassed by this guy. I mean, he absolutely played them like a fiddle. We had a tape which he first, by the way, a tape of him and. And one of a mutual friend of Rocky and Relli's. And he said that there was a. There was a recording. And he said. And when he heard the beginning of the recording, he realized what that was. He was like, oh, that's fake. Get that away from me. That's fake. It's not my voice. It's. It's. It's AI. It's like, that's fake. It's AI. So then I had to call the poor guy who made the recording in. Wally. Wally, say. Yeah, that's from Paris. He was in Paris, this poor guy. So that's my voice. That's really his voice. He said this stuff. I know nothing about this case. But, yes, I'm here to authenticate a tape. And on the tape, what. What really saying is if he gives me 30 million, I'll disappear to an island and they'll never find me. The DA can never find me, and they can't prosecute their case. You know, it's like, you know, and this is his example, not mine. It's like, you know, when you. When you smack your bitch and she files charges against you, if she doesn't show up, the case is way weaker.

[DJ Envy]

That's what he said on Stan on the phone call.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. So that's his. That's like, where his Mind goes to. But his thought was, I'm gonna disappear to an island, the DA will never find me. So I stood behind the two district attorneys. I was like, so they'll never find him like this. And they just sit there like sleeking down in their chairs. I'm like, he tried to sell his criminal case for $30 million. That's called extortion. Okay, so he should be prosecuted for extortion. He admitted perjury. He was caught other times committing perjury when he didn't admit it. I mean, this guy's a one man crime spree on the witness stand alone.

[Scott Galloway]

Who files those charges against him?

[Chelsea Peretti]

You, I was about to say, because you told me that you guys have began putting together transcripts.

[Melissa Fumero]

Transcripts. We're going to present. You know, we have this video. Fortunately, this thing was on tv, so we also have video. We're going to bring this to the district attorney's office. I'm sure they'll look at for a minute and a half and disregard it. You know, they went after Rocky like, you know, he was, I don't know, Dillinger or Pablo Escobar. I mean, they got a guy who's, who's not only admitted to crimes on the stand, they got caught red handed committing extortion, lied about it and tried to sell the case. Now that is, to me, a perversion of justice. And if you're the district attorney and you have somebody trying to sell your criminal case for $30 million, I'd be mad as hell. I mean, I used to be a prosecutor. I would go after him with everything I had. But, you know, I don't predict that will.

[DJ Envy]

What about the prosecutor? Because in this case, right, you look at asap, the prosecutor, obviously. Yeah, that's, that's actually water. It's not monsters water. The prosecutor, I guess, didn't do their homework, right?

[Melissa Fumero]

Not a little bit.

[DJ Envy]

Right. So now I'm paying. I have to pay for my attorney. I have to pay for everything that they did for me. And they have no consequence at all. You can't sue the district attorney. Nothing is just. You just got to eat that.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, I mean, you do. It's. They have sort of this governmental immunity when they bring charges as long as they have a good faith basis to bring them. You really can't. The good faith basis is they have a video of Rocky holding what appears to be a gun. And they have another video where while it's grainy, you do hear a nest cam. Two pops, pop, pop, so. And he had a witness Swearing. Despite the fact that he's. He's. His tongue is a stranger to the truth. He did swear. And so that's enough to isolate them.

[DJ Envy]

Gotcha.

[Melissa Fumero]

From, from civil damages.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't understand the prop gun thing though. I was like, why would he be having a prop gun? For safety? Like that's just.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, it's, it's actually what happened. But here's why. Rocky, this is 2021, right? So he was still, you know, he hadn't. He was successful. But he wasn't like rolling and crazy though. So he was successful. He didn't use full time security 24 7. He does now after this incident. He does since that day. What happened was he did DMV video in July of 21st that actually came out in a year later with Rihanna. And in that video there was tons of prop guns and there were a lot, a lot of videos. Like you have those things, right? And so he had just recently gotten slashed in the face in a bar. He was jumped. He has a slash. It looks like Scarface right now has that. He had a stalker at that time In July of 2021, he had a stalker, active stalker, actually broke to his house. He had home invasions. He was licensed to possess guns in the home, but not to carry his security detail. And his manager Lulevin asap. Lou, who's just a great guy and a great witness, said you have to. If you're not going to use this full time, you can't carry a gun, but you should at least carry a prop. We can make it look like a real gun just to deter people in case someone's coming up to you rolling up and you can take it out. Rocky said sure, fine. So they took this little lock which was really small. You could put it in your pocketbook. It was a Glock prop gun. From the video, you can see it's in the video. They put an extended magazine on it, a little belt clip to make it look more intimidating. So that's what Rocky carried when he didn't have security. And we had two witnesses testify that. And you know, his inner circle knew that. So he used it because he couldn't carry a real gun. First of all to. He didn't want to carry real gun because God forbid he has to use it. Then you got to really answer some, some right stuff. But so that's why he carried it. You know, I know people like that sounds like BS pro. But what sounds like more BS is that he had a real gun fired off to 9 millimeter shots. No shellcase were found by the police. No damage was done anywhere. In one of the shots in that granny video, his friend asap bills and this really were an inch away from like you and I. Charlie aren't even as close as they were and he shoots. Someone's dying. Someone's dying. No one got hit. I mean it's. It was obvious that that was not a real gun. Otherwise you would have seen things that you would have seen. As a matter of fact, the cops on the body cam said doesn't look like there's any evidence of a shooting here. No, it was inches away from where the computers are there, where the screens are. There was a parking lot with cars. It was a pay for parking lot. You know, you shoot a gun, a window is going to break, something's going to happen. There was nothing. They searched every car. So I think there's. While I get why the prop gun thing is hard for some people to grasp, there's certainly way less evidence that it was a real gun than a prop gun.

[DJ Envy]

The world is constantly changing. It's up to you to decide how to respond. Choose to be bold. To try something new. Choose to reinvent yourself. That's what Nissan did with the all new totally reimagined Kicks. The dynamic new exterior styling immediately announces that Nissan isn't messing around the interior. A completely redesigned cabin with premium features like wireless Apple Carplay and a panoramic moonroof make driving a Kicks immersive and exciting. And with new performance and safety features like intelligent all wheel drive, the Kicks is both fun and safer to drive than ever before. It is the dawning of a brand new era for the Nissan Kicks. Only one question remains. Is it a new era for you as well? Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Today available features compatible device service and consumer activation of Nissan Connect services package required Use only when safe and legal. Subject to third party service availability. For more information see nissanusa.com Connect legal Apple CarPlay is a trademark of Apple Inc. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions.

[DJ Envy]

AT&T has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed like actually getting the rental car you requested or your wedding turning out just like you dreamed it would. And someone making another pot of coffee in the break room after drinking the last drop of the last one. Yeah, don't get me started. Not guaranteed. In a world where Nothing is guaranteed, AT&T is bringing something new to the table, AT&T is introducing A guarantee with connectivity you depend on, deals you want and service you deserve, or they make it right. So if you want to know more about the ATT guarantee, head to att.com guarantee@&t connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguaranty for details.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

The more better, the merrier title of your podcast all your old Brooklyn Nine9 friends are appearing on your favorite podcast, More Better. Don't miss Brooklyn Nine9 stars and show hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumaro as they welcome their friends and former castmates back to laugh about old times and swap some stories. This week, it's Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti.

[Melissa Fumero]

Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I was like, can I also hug them then?

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Next week, the 99 nonsense continues as the More Better amigas sit down with Joe Latrulio, AKA Detective Charles Boyle. There'll be more laughs, more. More conversation, more stories from the set, and More More Better. Don't miss a minute.

[Melissa Fumero]

You felt safe enough to throw out a bad idea, right? I mean, that is the key because you're definitely not throwing out good ideas all the time. I mean, that's just not how it works.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night, Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they?

[Scott Galloway]

We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people.

[Melissa Fumero]

One minute was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Jay Shetty]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[Melissa Fumero]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to Obscurum. Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Melissa Fumero]

And that's the bottom line.

[Chelsea Peretti]

What about this civil suit that Wally filed whenever. I'm not Wally. I'm sorry. That really filed. When everything first started moving. It was the. It's a defamation suit against Rock.

[Melissa Fumero]

No, it's an assault. Shooting. Rocky. Defamation.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Shooting against you?

[Melissa Fumero]

Yes.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah, there's two of them. So do you got. Are you now going to submit to, like, file for dismissal?

[Melissa Fumero]

Look, I'm. I'm you know, that case is running its course. I'm dealing with it on my, you know, own with rocky Rockies, full case. I mean, that thing is on life support now, obviously. I can't imagine this guy ever want to get back on a witness stand again. You know, he can't withstand it. I mean, he was again, a horrible witness even. You know, there were people inside that courtroom, you know, who were there, who were part of this process who said, how do they proceed with this guy? It makes no sense.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Melissa Fumero]

And they did. You know, but we had a prosecutor who was hell bent on winning, not doing justice, hell bent on winning. And when you have that, it's a dangerous thing because, you know, they have the weight of law enforcement behind them and you know, prosecutors job, and I used to be one, is not solely to just secure a conviction. It's to make sure you're doing right. And when a witness continuous lies on a witness stand and purges himself and you know that they are, you know, sometimes okay to take a step back and reevaluate.

[DJ Envy]

In your opinion is because he was, he's a celebrity, that that prosecutor probably thought this was his case, this was the one that's gonna put him on the map.

[Melissa Fumero]

Look, if this would look, this prosecutor has quite a history, let's put it that way. He was the Durst prosecutor. Okay. So he was then sidelined and bench for some misconduct that apparently had committed in regard to the Durst case. I don't need to get into it now. Yep. It was his like coming back party. Like this was his first big trial since thirst after the old DA put him to some administrative part. Right. So he took this. So like this was his chance to come back high profile case on tv. He wanted to, you know, this was his comeback party. And you know, he got schooled. He got schooled and got put back in his little corner because he was. And he was nasty. I got to be honest with you, I don't like saying that. I've again 120 jury trials I've had and I've gone head to head with opponents, with adversaries who have been hard charged like me. I can respect that. We don't have to like each other, but we could respect each other and not make it personal. This guy was off the rails. But then I spoke to other lawyers, like David Chesnov who tried. Was a great lawyer from Las Vegas who tried the Durst case. He said he almost went to blows with him, which, you know, we came close a few times too. I got Right in my face.

[DJ Envy]

That Brooklyn almost came out.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, the Brooklyn was out. Doesn't ever go away. But when this guy got into my face, I looked and I said, you're going to get hurt. You're making a mistake. I need to back up, man, real quick. And. And, you know, whatever it was just.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you. Did you have that coat before or after the case?

[Chelsea Peretti]

No, he been getting.

[Melissa Fumero]

No, I had this before. Freezing outside. Okay. Barely wears.

[DJ Envy]

You should ask about the watch before. That's what you should have asked.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. Yeah. In Santa Barbara.

[DJ Envy]

Wow.

[Scott Galloway]

How was that?

[Melissa Fumero]

That was crazy, too. That was really crazy. Mesro was the lead lawyer in that case when I was younger, but it was. Yeah, it was a nutty case. And that was. You know, that was another sort of travesty of justice. I mean, whatever issues Michael had, that was not the right case to bring against him. He was innocent. He was found not guilty. And, you know, I worked with his manager, Frank Cassio, and then when I resolved Frank's case, they asked me to stay on and work with Michael, and I did. And that case was. Yeah, I mean, it was sad because. And he was ready under the, you know, influence of Dr. Murray at that point. And it was, you know, you could see there was something missing.

[Scott Galloway]

I want to know what you learn from these cases, right? Because to me, I always say it's got to be extremely difficult to be in this game nowadays with social media, because don't they tell jurors, hey, you're not supposed to watch television. You're not supposed to turn on the radio, but how do you not. How do you not be on YouTube? How do you not be on your phone? How do you not see all of these things?

[Melissa Fumero]

You don't have to be on YouTube. I mean, I opened my phone, and there was the thing of our case, like, you know, right there, like, on social media comes at you. You don't have to go look for it comes at you. So I don't really know how that works anymore. You know, you have to trust that the jurors are gonna listen to the court's instructions, which are, do not read about this case. If you see something, don't look at it. Go past it. But human beings are human beings, right? I mean, the more you tell them that, the more they're gonna be like, what. What. What's out there? I want to look at it. Nice. So I don't believe that they are completely insulated from all the press and stuff like that. I think at the end of the day, Though they, they do make their decisions on what they see. And I, I deal with that, my summation, by saying, look, you know, people who come in and out of the courtroom and sit for 10 minutes of testimony or the most important day or the summations, they don't know this case. You're the only ones who've sat here for four weeks for every minute of every of the testimony, and you're the only ones who know all the facts. So whatever anyone else is saying, I think it's irrelevant. What matters is what you think. You are the judges of the facts in this case. You. And you know, I empower that jury. And we did it here. What's crazy about this case though, is this, this. We're in downtown LA, right? In this court, same floor as the O.J. trial. We were the courtroom across from it, right, because it's where all the high profile cases go there on the ninth floor, the O.J. trial. And again, very close friends with Johnny was very, he was my mentor. Bob Shapiro is a dear friend of mine. They had eight black jurors downtown Los Angeles, right? Fair. We in our jury selection, Rocky's case, I didn't get to say hello to a black juror. Wow. It's not like we, we didn't pick one. We didn't even get to say hello. Out of 106 jurors that were brought in for the panel, four were African American. Four. And the first one was like number 70. So I couldn't get to them unless like the first 30 jurors decided they weren't showing up or something. It was, it was troubling to me. And Reverend Sharpton came out hard. He called me, he's like, joe, am I reading this right? Yeah, Rev, you are. And, and you know, Reverend Sharpton came out, put out a really harsh statement just to make sure that he got a fair trial. And so look, I didn't, I'm not. I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, okay. I thought I was a light skin, I could grow up. So I didn't even know the difference. And I never judged people by the color of the skin, only by the content of the character. Right? And so for me, it doesn't really matter if I see good people, if I, I wanted smart good people here. And I believe I got, obviously we got so, so. But I believed I had them. So it wasn't so much we have a black person, we need a black person. But I did tell this jury at the end, at some point during that summation, I Said, now, you represent the conscience of this community. You decide what's right and what's wrong, because you're going to send a message out. But you represent the entire community. And when I say the entire community, I mean the community. You're all from different parts of Los Angeles. Right. And also, you represent Compton and Englewood. I just said that to make sure. And Rocky told me he was really moved by that, because obviously that's a large African American population. Compton, Englewood. And I said that. Just remind this jury you're representing his peers also. You're supposed to have a jury of peers. There was, like, you know, none representing, but. But we were good. We were good because I just got jurors who. I mean, I had a rocket scientist on this jury. You understand what I'm saying? I didn't even know that was a real thing. I thought you say, I'm like, yo, you're no rocket scientist. I thought it was just a phrase. This woman was a rocket scientist. She was a scientist who built rockets, spaceships. I was like. I said, you're really a rocket scientist. I was like, I want you just like. So we had a rocket scientist on the street. We had a smart jury.

[Chelsea Peretti]

We had a gun. There was someone who worked in weapons.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. We had a woman who was a pistol instructor.

[Chelsea Peretti]

We thought that you weren't gonna want her on that case. A lot of people thought that.

[Melissa Fumero]

I love. I love when people. People think they know more than I.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Oh, the Twitter, the Twitter, the Twitter jury. We were breaking it down, and we were like, there's no way that he's gonna want her on that case. But it's telling if he does or he doesn't. And when you welcomed her, I was like, oh, he's so smart.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yep. I wanted her because the ballistics evidence actually worked in our favor in this case. 1, 2. Her dad was a criminal defense attorney. Oh, okay.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I didn't know that.

[Melissa Fumero]

I also thought she would understand. And then she said one other thing during jury selection. You know, I talked about right now. Rocky's intention was always testify. Always. But we decided we had crippled their case so badly at the end that I didn't want to shift the focus of Reli's glorious train wreck to. To Rocky's testimony. And we decided it wasn't worth him to testify because he already had the witnesses. He was just going to corroborate or reaffirm what witnesses already testified to. And then that prosecutor would be yelling at him for four days. You know, that's which I put on a witness for 10 minutes that he cross examined for three and a half hours, screaming at him, which didn't go for, well, I don't think, with the jury. But putting that aside, I didn't want to get away from Reli's testimony. I didn't want there to be too much time between the end, the summations and his testimony. So we. We didn't call Rocky, but we planned on it. But still, I asked the jurors, I asked the jurors, I said, do any of you have a problem if the defendant doesn't testify? Because you know the judge gonna instruct you can't consider that. And that juror, the pistol instructor whose father was a criminal defense attorney, looked at me and said, I wouldn't testify. If I were a criminal defendant, there's no way I would testify. And I just remember that they can. Okay, she gets it. She understands. She understands why that's important, because most people say no. Why wouldn't he testify if I were interested? I want to testify. It's not that simple. It's just not that simple.

[Scott Galloway]

Celebrity helper hurt. And it's kind of a little layered question, but like, you know, I asked the celebrity helper hurt in cases like this because I know when you're a juror, they'll ask you questions about Rocky. But did they ask the jurors about Rihanna?

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah, they went in.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, that might get stolen now. That might get stolen.

[DJ Envy]

He'll sue you and prosecute you.

[Chelsea Peretti]

All right, go ahead asap. Joe, got people out here don't even.

[Scott Galloway]

That's right.

[Melissa Fumero]

You know, they were obsessed with. I loved it. I mean, they were just so obsessed with Rihanna. I didn't make her part of this case. She wasn't part of the case. The jury knows who Rihanna is. They know who she is compared, you know, in relation to Rocky. They saw her there every day. So I didn't need to inject her into the case to make it like we were playing on her, her celebrity status. I don't, quite frankly, think jurors were gonna acquit him because, oh, here's Rihanna. So let's, you know, be damned with the evidence, let's just acquit him. But they were so obsessed with focusing on Rihanna. Oh, Rihanna. Don't you know you have to treat everyone equally? It was Rihanna's here. I was like, keep going, man. Just keep going. Keep reminding them that Rihanna's here and talk about her. Because if I did that, it would look like I was pandering. I don't think that mattered at all. I honestly don't. I mean, I think they looked at the evidence. I mean, look, if Relly turned out to be a great witness and I couldn't destroy him like I did, I don't think. I don't think the jury would care.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Everyone was sitting there the first couple days though, of the trial, of it, she wasn't there. But then she came that Wednesday. I believe it was that Wednesday. Why did, why wasn't she there those first couple days?

[Melissa Fumero]

Kids were in New York with her because the LA fires were still going.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Okay.

[Melissa Fumero]

And they're very protective and she's a mother hen, you know, she's really protective of those boys. And, you know, the air quality was really bad that first week of that trial. And my eyes were like, woke out of court. I was staying downtown LA from. So I had a two block walk to my hotel and it was, it was pretty bad. I mean, the, the, the. You felt something, you smelled something. So I think it was an air quality issue. And she kept the boys away and she doesn't go anywhere out those kids, so she wasn't going to leave them in New York and come here. So. But she, you know, we knew this was going to be a long trial.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah.

[Melissa Fumero]

So she made it.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Well, they're naming the next baby. Oh, sorry, go ahead. The name of the next baby after you.

[Melissa Fumero]

Asap. Joe.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Asap, Joe.

[Melissa Fumero]

She told me that.

[Chelsea Peretti]

So that means we're not gonna get a Rihanna album because they're about to have to make a baby.

[Melissa Fumero]

So.

[Chelsea Peretti]

It's all your fault.

[Melissa Fumero]

Sorry, sorry. But Rocky's album's coming out soon and that thing is fire. I mean, I heard some songs on that. I mean, I'm. You know, he does some. He's a little different. Like, he's not, you know, but this next album is gonna be different than anything I've ever heard.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Anyway, I like how you skated around.

[Scott Galloway]

You think you're gonna be in the wedding.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I see what you did.

[Scott Galloway]

You think you're gonna be in the wedding.

[Melissa Fumero]

If I'm not the best man, there's a problem.

[DJ Envy]

I was gonna, I was gonna ask, you know, when you take a case, do you have to believe the person?

[Melissa Fumero]

I have to believe in the person.

[DJ Envy]

Oh, break that down.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. So look, I don't prejudge anyone. I'm not the judge during execution. All right? I've represented people who have probably done what they've been accused of doing, but doesn't mean they're bad people and don't deserve representation. You know, if we all had our worst 10 minutes of our lives captured on video or something like that, I don't think we'd all be happy. Right. If I love a person or think that really good people and they just made a mistake, I could deal with that. I'm not going to suborn perjury. I'm not going to make up a story, but I'll help them get through it. And that sometimes that means just mitigating the damage, right? Sometimes. You know, with Meek's case, for example. Right. Meek, you know, in the crime, he pled guilty to it. But this judge in Philly was obsessed with him and was. Had him under probation for over 10 years. No one ever, ever. He was a kid. He was a teenager when his crime was committed. Ten years later, he's still in the probation. If he came to court with White Sox, boom, two more years probation. She wanted him under his thumb. She wanted him to make a record about her. It's like she was. There was an issue going on there. So it wasn't like we were saying Meek was innocent. Innocent. But he served his, his, his, you know, his sentence and he was being abused by the system. And the district attorney came around and agreed with us. And eventually I got that dismissed. We resolved the case. And, you know, that judge was. Was relocated to a civil park.

[Scott Galloway]

You a legend.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Did you. Did you know that the free Meek Mill movement was going to be as big as it was when you signed on to that? Because it got. It grew so insanely.

[Melissa Fumero]

That was crazy. No, because what I first. At first, you know, honestly, you know, I didn't realize how big that was and how loved that guy was, especially in Philly. I mean, he's like Rocky in Philly. Right. And so I called Reverend Al, who I'm very close with, and. And the Reverend, I said, can you come to Philly with me and to visit him in jail and maybe make a stand here? This judge is really giving them once over. And, you know, I think I need your help on this one. And Reverend said to me one thing. Is he a good guy? Joe, Am I getting embarrassed or is he a good guy? No, no, Reverend, you will not get embarrassed here. It's worth it. He's a good guy. More important, he's getting. He's getting run over by the system, and he has the wherewithal. He has a voice, you know, that means 99 of people in that system in Philly don't have that voice, don't have the wherewithal and again trampled on. And it's true, they reformed, you know, that whole probation system in Philadelphia because of Meek. In our case, it put a spotlight on it, you know, so it was, it was, it was an important case for a lot of reasons.

[DJ Envy]

The world is constantly changing. It's up to you to decide how to respond. Choose to be bold, to try something new. Choose to reinvent yourself. That's what Nissan did with the all new, totally Reimagined Kicks. The dynamic new exterior styling immediately announces that Nissan isn't messing around. The interior, a completely redesigned cabin with premium features like wireless Apple CarPlay and a panoramic moonroof make driving a Kicks immersive and exciting. And with new performance and safety features like intelligent all wheel drive, the Kicks is both fun and safer to drive than ever before. It is the dawning of a brand new era for the Nissan Kicks. Only one question remains. Is it a new era for you as well? Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Today Compatible Device Service and consumer activation of Nissan Connect Services package required. Use only when safe and legal. Subject to third party service availability. For more information, see nissanusa.com connect legal Apple CarPlay is a trademark of Apple Inc. Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. Always monitor traffic and weather conditions.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

The more Better the merrier Title of your podcast all your old Brooklyn Nine9 friends are appearing on your favorite podcast, More Better. Don't miss Brooklyn Nine9 stars and show hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero as they welcome their friends and former castmates back to laugh about old times and swap some stories. This week, it's Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti.

[Melissa Fumero]

Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I was like, can I also hug them?

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Then next week, the 99 nonsense continues as the More Better amigas sit down with Joe Latrulio, AKA Detective Charles Boyle. There'll be more laughs, more conversation, more stories from the set and more more Better. Don't miss a minute you felt safe.

[Melissa Fumero]

Enough to throw out a bad idea, right? I mean, that is the key because you're definitely not throwing out good ideas all the. I mean, that's just not how it works.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot Air balloons and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of night? Silent, unseen, Watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road. Or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they?

[Scott Galloway]

We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people.

[Melissa Fumero]

One minute was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy.

[Jay Shetty]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically?

[Melissa Fumero]

Yes, Absolutely.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joe Tacopina]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[DJ Envy]

Ow. Go slower.

[Joe Tacopina]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Pillow talk, the most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill conceived investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup.

[Melissa Fumero]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Joe Tacopina]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Scott Galloway]

How did you get your reputation? Like, how did you become the person that people like Donald Trump and Daniel Snyder and Michael Jackson asap. How do you become that guy?

[Melissa Fumero]

You know, results. At the end of the day, it's results, right? I mean, you had to have a.

[Scott Galloway]

First big case that put your name.

[Melissa Fumero]

I was a prosecutor, deputy chief homicide in Brooklyn, you know, and I did well there, but then I left and you know, I was doing well. My first case was a police corruption case called the Morgue Boys. Those guys were cops were alleged to have been robbing drug dealers in East New York and then splitting them up in the morgue factory. And that was why this give me.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Power like the 50 cent shell, but go ahead.

[Melissa Fumero]

So anyway, that was my first on the front page of New York Times. So I'm like a month out of the DA's office. I have this nationally important case, you know, very important case. I got my guy off. I got an acquittal and from there I went on some talk shows to talk about it. Then I started.

[Scott Galloway]

Was that the Kenneth Marino case or something?

[Melissa Fumero]

No, that's later boys. This was like, you know, Michael Dowd was the main witness, the modeling commission. That was like, this was, we're talking about like 90, early 90s. Yes. And then, then, you know, just sort of steamrolled from there a little bit. I started getting case after case. I started representing a lot of cops at first and then rappers like Rakim came to me on a little thing. Foxy, right? Foxy put out a great post yesterday or something like that, a picture of us. I looked like I was 12 years old in that picture, but Foxy was awesome. My God, who's. I had all these like old school gangster rappers, right? Sticky fingers for Monyx, you know, and stuff like that. And so I started getting to that world a little bit, just, you know, and then working hard and then, you know, I had some good case, had some good wins. People think I was going to win these cases and I started winning cases. And then Johnny came, Cochran, fresh off the heels of O.J. right, so, and he looked me up. Someone said something about me and he looked me up, he said, I heard a lot of good things about you. I got a call from him and I'm like, okay, yeah, it's Johnny Cochrane. Sure. I didn't believe, I didn't know him. And he said, can you meet me at my office? I was like, okay, let me shut you off again. I thought this was like a candy camera prank or something. I went there and it was him. And he just like, I love your style, I love what you do. I've seen work, I've read your transcripts, you're going to be a star, you're going to be me. And I was like, really? You think that? And I mean, I was confident in myself. I, you know, I had some good wins early on. And he just like, just, yes, let's, let's hang together and let's do some things together. I'm like, okay, my God, you know, Johnny Cochran and, and it helped, it was, it was a great thing for me and I'm still a young Lauren, you know, he's then sent me some work and then just happens, you know, then once you win a big case and you know, you're in the game, then all of a sudden just started, just started that way. I got Foxy, you know, off of a few things. She had a little cell phone problem, kept slipping out of her hands, hitting people in the head by accident.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you ever fear any retaliation? Because, you know, they described. They described you as the most hated a lawyer in New York City because you take on a lot of controversial cases.

[Melissa Fumero]

Charlemagne. That was. I love that that they described it. It was one anonymous prosecutor's ass I kicked. And I know the case. That was a quote to the New York Post. Of course, the New York Post. And makes that most hate. Lord, one person said that. I'm sure a lot of people hate me. No, no, I don't give a crap. A lot of people hate me. I know I can look myself in the mirror. I'm a hard charger. I don't look to make friends when I go into a courtroom, I look to defend the person I'm standing next to. If it means I ruffle a few feathers, so be it. I really don't care. But, you know, it's controversial cases. Anyone who's charged with bad things, you know, needs a criminal defense turn. I don't know if that makes it controversial, but. Yes. They're talking about the rape scops, rape cops case.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, that was the kid of Marino.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, that was Moreno, which I won. No one thought they could win because he was on wire, she was wired, and it acknowledged what. What they claim he did.

[Scott Galloway]

And how do you win something like that?

[Melissa Fumero]

Well, I. I said, basically, he told her what you wanted to hear to calm her down. And I used science in that case. That case was a science case. That there was scientifically that. That it wasn't consistent with the rape. And. And I believed it, by the way, just so, you know, And. And, you know, we put on. We put on scientific evidence, and I had him testify, and he described his action, and it wasn't all right. He did make misconduct like he, you know, he was a recovering alcoholic, she was blackout drunk, and he was trying to help her. And so he went back and to the apartment multiple times at night, but the jury believed him. And that jury was also another. I pick smart juries when I need people to understand intricate defenses. I had five Ivy Leaguers on that jury. That was which people like, you're crazy. They. Most people think defense attorneys want the dumbest juries you could find. I don't. I want people to understand what the burdens are, the proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You know, you don't talk. We don't walk around going, hey, I don't know. Did you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? To me, you don't do that in the daily life. But that's the highest standard law Allows. I mean, you know, in a civil case, mere preponderance. I could bankrupt you, take your money, take your house on a 51% to 49% verdict. That's mere preponderance. Right? Preponderance of the ends. Criminal case. That doesn't mean anything. I could take your child away on clear and convincing evidence. Right. That's the standard. Higher than preponderance. I could literally. A parent could lose custody of a child on clear and convincing evidence. That is not enough to convict someone in this country. You have to go to the highest standard law permits, which is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And when I sort of make sure the jury understands how high that is, it's not, he probably committed the crime. It's not, I think he committed the crime. It's not. It's very likely he committed the crime. It's not, I'm almost certain he committed the crime. It's. I have no reason to doubt he committed the crime. That's a real high standard, and I have to make sure the jury understands that and then I list the reasons to doubt. So, you know, it's. I take on these cases that I believe in. I've turned down a lot of cases. A lot of cases that could be lucrative or even very high profile. Harvey Weinstein was one. He'd try to hire me and I wouldn't. Why not?

[Scott Galloway]

Why?

[Melissa Fumero]

Thing I told you, I think about having a bond with somebody.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Melissa Fumero]

Feeling like, you know, people have been charged some horrific things, but I liked. I could tell it was good inside of them or I just had a good connection with them.

[Scott Galloway]

You didn't feel that with him?

[Melissa Fumero]

No, no. Did not really. Did not feel that with him.

[DJ Envy]

Let me ask you a question real.

[Scott Galloway]

Quick because that's interesting. With the, with the. You represented Donald Trump in the Stormy Daniel's case. Was that ever. Was there ever even a chance of you winning that? And the reason I asked that is because it was politicized. You know what I mean? It was politicized. It was all over the media. Everybody knew it was a target on Trump. Like they wanted to nail him.

[Melissa Fumero]

No doubt. That was not a case that would have been brought up for anyone. And I mean that whether, whatever your opinions are of Trump, I'm talking about the defendant. That case would never have been brought if it were not him. It was a case of first impression. Think about it. It was a settlement of a. A personal matter. Right. Alleged, you know, affair. Consensual. Nothing like. But, you know, she was basically trying to get Money from him to keep it quiet. He paid her. Whether it happened, didn't happen to relevant. He paid her some money, end of story. He didn't take a tax deduction on it. He didn't file it in his campaign thing. I mean, he paid personal money. Somehow they try to make that into a false filing in his own records. So. Because he put, you know, payment, legal fees, whatever, in his internal records, district attorney charged him.

[DJ Envy]

I never said how. How that was a charge.

[Melissa Fumero]

It's not. It's not. It wasn't. And I don't think it would have held up in court, but, you know, all the things that happened, have happened. I actually didn't try that. I stepped out from representing him after that. I beat the rape charge for Gene Carroll. That's the one I was involved in. Oh, rape allegation. And we won that. He was then clipped with sexual misconduct, sexual and defamation of her. But. And look, here's the bottom line. He cannot win a New York jury trial. Just can never do it. It's just never happening. You know, so that's. That's. That's a different thing. That was a different thing altogether.

[Chelsea Peretti]

You know, is there like a ethics thing for your attorneys where, like. Because I'm just sitting here thinking, like, you representing Trump, like, people right now love everything about what you're doing because of asap. Right. But I'm sure during you representing Trump, they probably thought you were, like, they hated you. Exactly.

[Melissa Fumero]

Some. And then the others love me. Like, it's like, you know, when I represented Lilo Brancado, right, The Sopranos actor, killed the police officer.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Allegedly.

[Melissa Fumero]

Allegedly. Yes. I'm sorry. No, Stroman, sorry. The guy, he and some other guy were breaking in to get some drugs from a house. They were both addicts. That crazy ass. They're going into a house of a friend who used to give them drugs, and he was already dead. So the drugs were in. Break in cop. The neighbor sees it, the other guy shoots him dead. Leo doesn't have a gun. He doesn't know the guy has a gun. The other guy got life in prison. Then Leo went to trial. They charged him with murder, accessory to murder, which is the same as murder. And we beat that. And we beat it because we had to, you know, present the case with Lilo, testified and, you know, we proved that he did not know that this other guy, Armento, had a gun. Now, you know, I just told you, I represent all these cops and different cases, major cases, women case, all these cases that day that Mean, Pat lynch was like, you know, in the hole. We almost had a fist fight. Like, so, you know, I'm a chameleon, I guess. I'm representing who I represent at that particular moment. You know, when I represent Trump, a lot of people hate me for that. When I represent. When I represent someone like, you know, Rocky or Meek, other people hate me for that. Right. And I don't care. I don't lose sleep. I have mirrors. As long as I can look in the mirror and I do the right thing and I don't mess around. Like, I. You know. And again, as long as I'm comfortable, like, with the. With the. With the Trump thing, I thought those. The case I got involved in, I thought were absolute bs. I really did. With certain cases I wouldn't get involved in.

[DJ Envy]

When you take a step back. Right. And I'm sure people have asked you a million and one times, and you look at, for example, this Diddy case.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

Would you do a lot of things different than his attorneys actually doing? Because it seems like they're already losing, and it just. It doesn't make sense. What would you do different?

[Melissa Fumero]

Well, I wouldn't go out in the press and make pronouncements that are later disproved quickly because you tend to lose credibility. I mean, there's this whole thing, like the stupid baby oil thing, right? Who cares? First of all, baby lotion, he had this, right? But that became like this. This. This battle line. And they went out and said, oh, you know, he just bought them in bulk at Costco right down the block from his house. And that's why he has it so big. No big deal. He bought baby. First of all, it's a thousand bottles. No one buys a thousand bottles.

[DJ Envy]

Right.

[Melissa Fumero]

In bulk. But that was what he said. Of course, that. Then Costco then comes out with a statement, no, we've never sold baby lotion in our life.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus.

[Melissa Fumero]

We don't. Not one Costco store ever sold bab. So, boom. Now it looks like somebody's lying, right? You don't need that kind of stuff.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Or the Cassie video, too. They came out strong before the video dropped that.

[DJ Envy]

That was before he charged.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah.

[Melissa Fumero]

Now, look, here's the thing with the Cassie video. That's horrible. Cringeworthy, right? You don't do that. You don't put your hand on a woman. I don't care what the story is. Just. I wouldn't anyway, not how I grew up.

[DJ Envy]

Right.

[Melissa Fumero]

But that's not. That's not. What does that have to do with these non Consensual, what are they called? Freak off things. What did that video have to do with that though? Right? And I would say, well, and that's the one count of the trafficking. She's the one person in the trafficking. Like, what does that video have to do? Okay, maybe you should be charged with domestic violence in state court. But what does that have to do with a non consensual freak off where people are being alleged to have non consensual, you know, sex because they're drugged up and they're being gang raped or whatever. I don't see why that video was. So of course that video has been played and showed and people think like, oh, he's guilty, but he's guilty of what? Like assault of a woman who was his girlfriend. That doesn't make him guilty of everything else. Now, I don't know enough about the case. I was asked to take a look at the case. There's another case. I said I would not be interested. Really. I just wouldn't be.

[DJ Envy]

No, same reason. Connection is.

[Melissa Fumero]

It's different a little bit. I represent Roc Nation, a lot of people in Rock. I'm very close with Jay and Desiree Perez, who's most amazing. Like, love them. Bomb of a boss. Love, amazing. You know, Jay Brown, all those people are just like, they really are special, special people. And they, you know, that's sort of family to me. And you know, I don't think they're. They're sort of see how to.

[DJ Envy]

I don't think. Last question on that. Do you think he should have gone?

[Scott Galloway]

Say that again, please.

[Melissa Fumero]

I don't think they see eye to eye with P. Diddy.

[Scott Galloway]

I just want to throw that out there because, you know, remember everybody was saying when Jay said they weren't friends, everybody was like, they were in pictures together all the time.

[Melissa Fumero]

Okay? Everyone was a picture of P. Diddy at one time or another. I went to a party, but when things got real years and years ago, you know, it didn't see how to.

[DJ Envy]

Do you think he should have got a bail and do you think he didn't get a bail because.

[Melissa Fumero]

Should have got a bail, that I.

[DJ Envy]

Break that down because I said the same thing. People thought I was crazy.

[Melissa Fumero]

No, no. What? What? I mean, he was willing. First of all, it was no mistake I thought they made saying, oh, he'll have a ankle bracelet and stay in his mansion in Miami and monitor who comes in and the case in New York, staying at a resort in Miami with a pool. It's not exactly really something I Would offer up to the court what I would have said. Remember that guy dks, The French guy who was charged here with the rape of a maiden hotel. I forget his name. Dominic Calstrain. Dominic Strauss Kahn. His bail. He got bail. And the reason he got bail was he said, I'll rent a place here in New York. I will stay inside. I'll have, I'll pay for security. I'll have a brace on. That's a concession. I think maybe if they had done that from the beginning, that may have been something that happened. Look, I don't, you know, there's a presumption of innocence that we still have to not, you know, people have forgotten that in this country a lot. He is innocent right now. P. Diddy is innocent. Whatever you think of him, whatever you think the, you know, the evidence will be. No one's seen a minute of testimony yet. He's presumed innocent until and unless the prosecution proves that case beyond reason. They may do it one day, but not today. And you know, to get keep someone in jail for a year awaiting trial, they have to either be a flight risk or a danger community or they've done something so horrific like a murder. Right. Where, you know, bail is not necessarily common. This is a case of having parties that got out of hand and, and there's allegations of, you know, sexual misconduct. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

I just don't see how you as an attorney, it can do like when, when the court of public opinion has already convicted somebody, which it seems like they have with Diddy. That's gotta make your job so difficult in the court of law.

[DJ Envy]

How do you.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I don't know.

[DJ Envy]

Because every juror turns on the news. It's all over the news. It's all on social media.

[Chelsea Peretti]

And even with the video you mentioned, I feel like even though he's not, I mean he's not convicted of anything in relation to that video, but the picture that it paints, I don't see how an attorney wins after that because.

[Melissa Fumero]

Well, you have to be smart.

[DJ Envy]

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[Stephanie Beatriz]

The more Better the Merrier Title of your podcast all your old Brooklyn nine Nine friends are appearing on your favorite podcast More Better. Don't miss Brooklyn Nine nine stars and show hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero as they welcome their friends and former castmates back to laugh about old times and swap some stories. This week, it's Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti.

[Melissa Fumero]

Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I was like, can I also hug them?

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Then next week, the 99 nonsense continues as the More Better Amigas sit down with Joe Latrulio AKA Detective Charles Boyle. There'll be more laughs, more conversation, more stories from the set, and more More Better. Don't miss a minute you felt safe.

[Melissa Fumero]

Enough to throw out a bad idea, right? I mean, that is the key because you're definitely not throwing out good ideas. I mean, that's just not how it works.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons and birds. But what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the COVID of of night, Silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they?

[Scott Galloway]

We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people.

[Melissa Fumero]

One minute was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is b on creepy.

[Jay Shetty]

Do you feel like this drone was targeting you?

[Melissa Fumero]

Specifically? Yes, absolutely.

[Jay Shetty]

Listen to Obscurum Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joe Tacopina]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[DJ Envy]

How? Go slower.

[Joe Tacopina]

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[Melissa Fumero]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Joe Tacopina]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Melissa Fumero]

In the rape cops case, for instance, I'll tell you an example of Rocky. Also in the rape cops case, these guys before trial were called rape cops. Rape cops. We're picking a jury. They called the rape cops case, not alleged rape cops case. Rape cops. I fronted with the jury. I said, you guys understand that they've been called rape cops for years. Before you heard a minute of testimony, they've been deemed to have committed a crime. You guys should take offense to that because we as a society don't want to be judged by the press and deemed guilty before we've had a chance to have a due process, a hearing. We then start failing as a society if we do that. Look, a great example, modern day example, not so much modern anymore, but still relatively recent, is that Richard Jewell guy. Remember that guy from the Atlanta Olympics? They used, they made a movie great, one of the best movies ever, called Jewel. He was the heavy security guard, the bomber, they said the Olympic bomber in the Atlantic Olympics. They said he was the guy, fat guy who planted, they said, planted a bomb in the Atlantic Olympics that went off. And they, you know, the FBI was all over him. He was, you know, he was a sort of a. Sort of hapless guy. A guy was a security guard and they say, plant this bomb. And he was condemned and the world had convicted him. As a matter of fact, you know, there was that Ted Kaczynski, the Montana bomb, the Unabomber. So they called this guy to make fun of him, the uniblobber. And, and it was basically, they condemned him and they, he. There was no lawyer would touch his case and he'd have any money. And some like, you know, lawyer who worked in social work services basically said, well, let Me? See, I don't think I help you. But he started looking at it, and also, little by little, things didn't add up. And the FBI was playing some games, and it turned out this guy was stone cold innocent, and he was actually a hero. He was actually trying to move the bag that blew up, and people saw him next to it, and they thought he was the guy who planted it. And he was exonerated. He was totally, 100% exonerated, but his life was over. Like, how did. He had a year of being called a murderer, a bomber, terrorist, making fun of him, calling him the Uniblover. And.

[Scott Galloway]

And the truth is never as loud as the lie.

[Melissa Fumero]

Right? And then. And then. And then what happens? He died of a heart attack, like, six months later. Like, he's just. His heart was broken. His life was over. And it was really sad. They had a great movie called Jewel. It's called Jewel. And if, you know, you want to see how our system could really screw up a life, watch that movie.

[DJ Envy]

Do you feel. Do you feel like, as a community, we don't do enough as far as jury duty is concerned? Like, you talk about 170 people, and it was five. And I talked about this on the air. A lot of times it's effed up because we don't want to go to court, we don't want to spend that time. But then when we do something wrong or when we're on trial, we don't have our peers.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. You know, that's what some people told me. You know, they were like, I'm like, how could this be? I thought it was. I really thought it was a plant. Like, I was like, they're setting this up. They're set. This is a setup. There's no way in downtown la. You know, they moved. They were thinking about moving the O.J. trial to Santa Monica to get it out of downtown la, because. So there wouldn't be so many blacks, right? And the DA said, no, no, we don't want to give the appearance that we're doing that. So. Because it was on the heels of Rodney King. So they kept. In downtown la, and you had, you know, eight black jurors. When they filed in, I was like. I'm like. I mean, I was the blackest guy in the room, aside from Rocky, like me. So I'm like, what is going on here? And it was just. It was odd. But so someone said to me, well, you know, the summons go out, the jury summons go out. We can't force people to respond. And show up. You know, so I'd say to the community, you gotta, you gotta show up to represent. Because then, then you know, the day we need, and we being this community, the day that that's needed to be represented. So you have a jury of your peers, you know, if you don't show up, you're, you're failing each other. And I think that's important. That's a great point.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Dj, I have one more Diddy question and did another ASAP question. So for Diddy, would you have advised him if you were, if you were his attorney when Cassie first reached out to just. My God, just paid the money.

[Melissa Fumero]

Listen to me, that was the. Honestly. And I don't, I hate bad talking other attorneys because attorneys who do that. And believe me, there were so many jealous people of me that I've heard people say, oh, he's not a good trial, he's not a good this, and all I do is win. And then this last case was on national tv so people could see me cross examine, see my five hour summation were like, holy cow. But you know, there are haters out there and people who just say negative things to make themselves feel better because they don't have good self worth. Right. And anyone talks negatively about other people publicly anyway, it's just because they feel bad about themselves. I truly believe that. That being said, I don't like the bad mouth of the lawyers, but I'm just going to talk facts here. That strategy, that was, that was a legal train wreck, what happened with Diddy. Because this all could have been avoided. This all could have been avoided. He had that case where. With Cassie, right. And it was all about a civil case. Civil. There was no prosecutors involved, no FBI, nothing. They wanted a settlement. And you know, these lawyers said, you know, no, they were close. No, but no. And they said, well, we're going to file a lawsuit if you don't give us a settlement. And like, you know, go ahead, then bad, bad move.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, especially knowing a tape exists and all that.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Like, that's Cassie. I think they underestimated her. Her voice, like what she was going to do, how people would consider how people gonna respond.

[Melissa Fumero]

Look at this day and age now. This day and age, the cancel culture, right? My God, people get accused of anything. Gone, you're gone. Like that's it. You don't even get a chance to defend yourself. Just the accusations. Enough to cripple somebody and destroy a career, right? So that happens. He went from being on top of the hill, you know, whispers always were about him, whatever. But he went from being on top of the hill to, like, the pariah. No one wants to even pretend they knew him. And. And look what happened. They filed that lawsuit. And what do you get? You get red ink, end of the world headlines, right? Did he rape his blood? All this crazy stuff. And what do they do? The worst, Once you let that happen, you now have to fight. You have to fight that suit. You have to. But instead, the day after they filed it, they settled. And so what that was, was an admission. And then it opened up the floodgates. You noticed what happened right after that, right? Everyone who ever met him. Me too. I want the money to. He did that to me. That was 20, 30, 40. Then the FBI was like, wait, well, what. All these women. So some of them were going to law enforcement, some were going to civil attorneys. But it was an avalanche that came around him. And only reason it happened is because they didn't sell that case civilly. Because if that Cassie case was settled and went away, I would have heard anything. Nothing. There were no other people coming after Diddy until that thing was filed.

[DJ Envy]

Right?

[Melissa Fumero]

But if. So if you're gonna settle, you settle before they filed the lawsuit. That's what you're settling for, to prevent that public damage. Right? But you don't let them file it and then settle the day later. That's the worst of all worlds, because then it's. It's admission and then bamboo.

[Scott Galloway]

And you can't give him the benefit of the doubt because, you know, we. He lied to us about Cassie and the video comes out. So now it's just like everything else, you hear? You like, I don't know what's true and what's not true.

[Melissa Fumero]

And none of that would have happened if he settled, which is crazy. If he had to do it all over again, you know, he'd give her 100 million, whatever. Because what's his life worth?

[Scott Galloway]

Because now I want to ask you something, too. I only got a couple more questions. You. You worked on the Michael Jackson case. Is it true that Johnny Cochran told Michael Jackson once, don't settle if you don't settle with anybody, because when you settle, you become a piggy bank.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yep.

[DJ Envy]

Do you feel that way for all cases?

[Melissa Fumero]

Not for all cases. I think each case is different. Right. Look. What Michael was different. If you. Michael, saw the case somehow. It was out there in the press, right? That was Michael, was Michael. There's only one Michael Jackson. Right? So I know Johnny did say that to him, but he was right to say that to him. But not every case. You know, sometimes a settlement is a good thing because it just not because you did it or because you won admission, but you just take Diddy as an example. Sometimes a settlement will save more money than you could ever imagine later and more heartache.

[Scott Galloway]

He actually did it. I'm talking about people who. Because I've. I've seen cases where people would settle just because they don't want the bad press and they don't want to end up spending a whole bunch of money in court for the next four or five years.

[Melissa Fumero]

I've represented some very, very famous people without the case ever become public that have settled because it's not worth it. Just the allegation is not worth it. And they'll pay money even though they proclaim their innocence. But they're like, but, yeah, but okay, so I met this person. So there is. They can prove that they know me or met me. And now I have to then fight like, and go after this. But yet all under the cloud of suspicion. And again, in this day and age, when you're. When you're accused of something, it's like, you know, you all son are guilty. And if you challenge the accusation, you're victimizing the victim, even though they're not a victim yet. Like, that drives me crazy. You can't even defend yourself. So if someone accused me sexual misconduct, and I said she's a liar or she's made these false claims before. Oh, how you're victimizing the victim all over again. When did she become a victim? That's the allegation. I'm telling you, I'm innocent. I'm gonna fight this. So I, you know, but now if you defend yourself, you're, you know, you're a pariah. So it just, It's. Yes. So people do settle all the time. What's called a nuisance settlement, you know, just to make sure that they don't wind up on the front page of New York Post TMZ and, you know, on the Breakfast Club.

[Scott Galloway]

I got three more questions. You got one more question.

[DJ Envy]

Got an ASAP question, right?

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah, I have an ASAP question. I just saw just now that he was named the first ever creative director of Ray Ban.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Asap, Rocky. And I remember after the case happened, you talked about. And you talked about it here, like, telling Gucci to hold off on the Gucci guilty, which is an amazing scent, by the way.

[Melissa Fumero]

I know.

[Chelsea Peretti]

But telling him to hold off. And I just, I think for me, when I heard you talk about that and I'm seeing this now. I think about even though he was proven innocent, were there people who walked away, like, in the midst of this? No. Everybody said I was dealing with all of them.

[Melissa Fumero]

I mean, I was like, on conference call of Comfort, Gucci, Puma, all these different brands, who worked with Rocky, who wanted to know what was going on, giving them updates. And I would tell them, we're going to win, we're going to win, we're going to win. But you gotta wait. Gucci Guilty was my biggest heart attack because of all things, to be called the cologne Gucci Guilty. And they wanted to roll it out before Valentine's Day. And I'm like, that would have been so middle of the trial. I'm gonna be summing up on Valentine's Day. Can you do me a favor and just wait another week? They're like, it's Valentine's Day. I'm like, I don't get that. Called Gucci not guilty. How about that? Put a little knot in there and then let it roll. But you can't call Gucci Guilty. So what they did was we compromised. They put the ad out with Rocky in it holding the bottle of cologne, and there was no Gucci Guilty. It was just the cologne and Rocky. But if you looked at the bottle to get real close, it would say Gucci Guilty on the bottle. But they didn't put those big letters. Now there's all the big letters, and now I don't care.

[DJ Envy]

Right, guys?

[Melissa Fumero]

So that was nuts.

[Scott Galloway]

I got two more questions.

[Melissa Fumero]

How did.

[Scott Galloway]

How good did it feel? Because what's the young lady's name that be doing this stuff? Megan was.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Megan Kunis.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I saw you pointed her and said you were wrong.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Oh, yeah. 50 just came at her, too, talking.

[Melissa Fumero]

About, first she was loving Rocky. She put down money following us. Hi, Rocky. Hi. And then one day, I mean, she sent me some messages that were pretty against the prosecution very far, Rocky. And one day, I don't know what happened, but the defense is lying. He's gonna be found guilty. Who would believe him?

[Chelsea Peretti]

I'm like, I think it was the prop gun thing.

[Melissa Fumero]

Nah, it was the prop gun thing. The proper thing was in the beginning. So it wasn't the prop. First of all, if you're a journalist, be a journalist. You're not. If. Not if you're going to pretend to be a journalist and you're really not journalist and do what you want, say what you want, no journalist says the defense is lying. They report the facts. It's for other people to Determine. Right. So. So I guess she's not a journalist, but she's a blogger. Right.

[Chelsea Peretti]

She's an attorney though. Correct? Wasn't she an attorney at one point?

[Melissa Fumero]

Wow. Sorry. I don't think that.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Oh, I was. She was an attorney at one point.

[Melissa Fumero]

I don't know. She got it wrong. I mean, listen, I, look, I don't have any personal feelings against her, but it was, it was shocking to see her go from one to the other and she's like, no one's gonna believe this defense. Well, guess what? And we had a three hour. I look, we had a four week trial, we had a verdict in three hours. I knew that point. We won. There's no doubt. Look, it's not 100 because you never know what a jury could do. But for 12 people that could make beyond a reasonable doubt on that evidence, it was gonna take a long time to get everyone around. What, what we found out from. I spoke to three jurors personally. Rolling Stone spoke to one. And, and someone else spoke to one. The one drawer that was on video was the. Are basically our worst drawer. Or the one who was against us.

[DJ Envy]

Or the one that was saying that she believed it was.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah, she believed. She believed. But when they went to the jury room, 10 people voted immediately within one minute to acquit.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Wow.

[Melissa Fumero]

Okay. It's reasonable that. Look, can we say, can anyone say it's definitely a prop gun? Of course not. Can anyone say it's definitely a real gun? Of course not. So that's reasonable doubt and that's not guilty. That's it. But you know, she then came out, she's walked to the court and a three hour verdict, when you get a three hour verdict is the defense verdict 99% of the time. Especially in a four week trial. Right. Because you can't come to the conclusion he's killed. You have to really comb through the evidence. They asked for one exhibit in their notes, the defense video. That's it. Events video. Five minutes later we have a verdict. It didn't take a rocket science to figure out where this was going. Right. So she's walking a court like doing a selfie video. Like if anyone thinks this is not guilty, they're crazy. Huh? Of course. I get this is guilty. They didn't believe the prop kinder. And it's going to be a guilty ver. Clearly a quick video like this is death with a death defense. Okay. She's talking about. But guess we're gonna see. And worse. Not guilty. Not guilty. I just looked at her. I Said you were wrong. You know, so whatever.

[Chelsea Peretti]

By the way, I can't find any evidence that she was an attorney. I tried to look it up. Yeah, I think it was. She worked for Long Crime.

[Scott Galloway]

One of my favorite movies, Devil's Advocate, Keanu Reeves, you know, Al Pacino. And, you know, in that movie, Keanu Reeves played the character named Kevin. And he's representing somebody, but in the midst of. Of representing him, he realizes, oh, this guilty. Remember, dude, it was a child molestation case. Dick got hard while he was. While the young girl was understand, testifying. Have you ever been in a situation like that? Like, in the midst of it, you like, wait a minute. I think this actually did it.

[Melissa Fumero]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it wasn't this case. Look, I've tried 120 jury trials, and. And so. And again, a chunk of those was the prosecutor. But there's been times where, you know, I believed in instance. Then I saw some evidence halfway through, I was like, but, you know, at that point, you're. You're. You're just fighting. And all you had. All you can do at that point is if they don't want to take a plea, you could just challenge the evidence, which is constitutionally what you have to do. Right. Someone could be guilty, but also be entitled to a not guilty verdict. And that sounds weird to people, but the reason that's true is because if the proof isn't there, if the prosecution has them met their burden to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, the person's entitled to a not guilty verdict. The community's entitled to a not guilty verdict. The system is entitled to a not guilty verdict. It. You know, we're not a perfect system, but you. What you definitely don't want is we start cutting corners for people we know are guilty, because that's Richard Jewell. That's what starts happening. Oh, they're guilty. So we, you know, constitutional safeguards that we could cheat a little bit here and there. That's when innocent people start getting clipped. And that, to me, is the worst thing that could ever happen. When I represent people who are purely innocent, that's the worst things for me, because then I'm dealing with, like, a pressure that is just enormous. Enormous. And, you know, if you don't win that case, you feel this, like, burden for the rest of your life.

[Scott Galloway]

Does it bother you more Alito, what's the. More of the burden? Does it, like, if you know somebody's guilty and still represent them and win does. Is that. Isn't that a burden too, though?

[Melissa Fumero]

No, no, because that means the system worked. That means the system worked. It means the proof wasn't there. As long as I'm not supporting perjury, which I would never do, as long as I'm not making, you know, somebody say something that's not true. If someone's guilty, and I think they're guilty, but they were found not guilty, that means the proof wasn't there. The proof was there, and we need that person to be found not guilty. Because it keeps the system strong, keeps all of us safe. Because if we start again, lowering the standards for the ones we know are guilty, that's when really, that's when innocent people start getting convicted. And that's bad. So I could live with that as long as the system was put to the test and I've done my job. Then, you know, it is what it is. The worst thing is if you represent someone who's truly, truly innocent, you know, they're truly innocent, and they're being either framed, set up, or just for whatever reason, there's an agenda. And, you know, that's. That's the stuff that you lose sleep over, because God forbid they're convicted. I mean, just like, how do you deal with that with you for the rest of your life? So, fortunately, I've not had that happen. I've represented a lot of innocent, truly innocent people. They've all been vindicated, thank God. Because if I had that happen, that would be. That would be, you know, something that would be very tough to go on with.

[DJ Envy]

Absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you do next? What? Because do you take a break or do you jump right back into a case?

[Melissa Fumero]

I gotta. I'm gonna have to go to my office after this. I'm afraid to see where I'm finding my desk. I mean, I've been there for five weeks, especially now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

You don't, like, take a break? You, like. You gotta. You missed asap, Joe.

[Melissa Fumero]

Gotta go. No, that's the life of a trial lawyer. I mean, look, will I take any downtime? Maybe a few days here or there. But I got. There's a judge dying to get me on trial in Westchester county, waiting for this case to be over, so. So I know that's gonna happen soon. Trial in Arizona coming up. So it's, you know, whatever. It is, what it is.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Yeah.

[Melissa Fumero]

I try and take care of myself, keep myself good shape, work out a lot, eat well, and that gives me a little extra energy, you know, go forward.

[Scott Galloway]

You need a documentary or something, man.

[DJ Envy]

Absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

Seriously, with all. With all of the different spaces you represented. Hey, Joe. Good to meet you. Pray I wish I appreciate you.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

Yes, sir.

[DJ Envy]

Well, we. We definitely gonna keep your number. Cause if we see any cases that we don't understand, we might need a call to break some things down for us.

[Chelsea Peretti]

We know I'm a. How many times I called you before I got you on the phone?

[DJ Envy]

That's right. Well, it's asap. Joe. Joe Tacopina. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

[Scott Galloway]

Wake that ass up early in the morning.

[Melissa Fumero]

The breakfast club.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Hey, Brooklyn Nine 9ers. It's a reunion. The ladies of the Nine 9 are getting back together for a special episode of the podcast More Better hosts Stephanie, Beatrice and Melissa Fumero. Welcome friend and former castmate Chelsea Peretti.

[Melissa Fumero]

Remember when we were in that scene.

[Chelsea Peretti]

Where you guys were just supposed to.

[Melissa Fumero]

Hug and I was standing there? Oh yeah.

[Chelsea Peretti]

I was like, can I also hug them?

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow more better and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.

[Joe Tacopina]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[DJ Envy]

How? Go slower.

[Joe Tacopina]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Melissa Fumero]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty. My latest episode is with financial expert Scott Galloway. If you are doing a lot of side hustles, it's very, very difficult to be great at your main hustle. The only way you're going to build real wealth and economic security is to go all in on one thing. That is greatness. Focus Scott is a professor of marketing at NYU Stern School of Business. Scott Galloway, Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Scott Galloway]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Melissa Fumero]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this.

[DJ Envy]

Podcast gives you content you won't find.

[Melissa Fumero]

Anywhere else ready to laugh and stay informed. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.