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The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Jonathan Karl Talks New Book 'Retribution', Trump Administration, Free Speech, Biden + More
00:38:08
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Host 1
This is an Iheart podcast.
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DJ Envy
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John Carr
Okay, only 10.
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BET Promo Announcer
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DJ Envy
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State Farm Ad Voice
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Charlamagne Tha God
Every day I wake up.
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DJ Envy
Wake your ass up.
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Charlamagne Tha God
The Breakfast Club. Do y' all finished or y' all done?
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DJ Envy
Morning everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlamagne the guy we are the Breakfast Club along the rose is here as well. And we got a special guest in the building.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Yes, indeed.
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DJ Envy
He has a new book, Retribution from Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America. John Carr, ladies and gentlemen.
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John Carr
Hey, thanks for having me.
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DJ Envy
How are you feeling?
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Charlamagne Tha God
What's up, jk? How are you?
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John Carr
I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. Crazy times.
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Charlamagne Tha God
This is your fourth book on Trump.
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John Carr
Yeah.
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DJ Envy
You like driving yourself crazy, huh?
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John Carr
Oh, my God. I wrote one almost six years ago, and I thought that would be the only one, but this is 1500 pages on this stuff. But, you know, I mean, I felt like I was watching history unfold and I saw people trying to rewrite the history as it was happening. And that's why I've, you know, I've poured my heart and soul into these books.
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Charlamagne Tha God
What feels different about this phase, this era of Trump?
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DJ Envy
If anything, if it does feel different?
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John Carr
I mean, it does. It is. I mean, I think what we're seeing now is, as suggested by the subtitle of this book, It's Changing America. His first term was chaotic. I mean, the attention of the world was on the White House. There was all this controversy swirling, but, you know, he left and it was done. I mean, there was nothing, no real lasting impact. I mean, now look what he's doing. And symbolically, you could look at, like, tearing down the East Wing, you know, changing paving over the Rose Garden. He. He's changing the physical layout of the White House. But our country is changing, I mean, the use of executive power. You have a president that's shown you can just basically ignore Congress, get into the precipice of ignoring the courts. We're in a totally different phase. I think.
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DJ Envy
I think the first term was more to see how far or what he can get away with. And then when he came back, he just started. I mean, he started hot for first day, desk signing, all types of parties signing things into play immediately. So I think the first term was, let me see what I can get away with.
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John Carr
Yeah. And, you know, he had all these people around him in the first term who had credentials. You know, he felt like almost like trophies on a wall. His cabinet, you had the four star Marine generals, you had the CEO of ExxonMobil, you had the retired judge and senator he put in charge of the Justice Department, and, and every one of those people, you could say, well, Trump has no experience in government, but they do. And he felt betrayed by all of them. They all tried to keep him to a degree in line, and now they're all gone. They're all gone.
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Charlamagne Tha God
You begin the book with an admission, you say, you believe the Donald Trump comeback was highly unlikely. What was the moment or series of moments in your reporting when your thinking shifted?
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John Carr
You know, it wasn't really until pretty close to the election when I saw how the Kamala Harris campaign was approaching it, and I saw their almost desperation to have another debate with Donald Trump. I saw her go on Fox News after resisting all kinds of interviews, something you had said she should have done a long time ago. And I report in the book how she actually, her campaign actually approached Fox and asked them if they would host a debate. This is in the end, in October. And Fox said, sure, but Trump had no interest in doing it again. And that's where I saw she wouldn't have been doing that if they didn't see that she was likely to lose.
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Charlamagne Tha God
When you realized that not only was a comeback possible, but that the campaign was built around this idea of retribution in a structural way, when did you realize that?
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John Carr
Really early on. I mean, I, I was there in Mar a Lago when he announced his campaign shortly after the midterms in 2022. It puttered along. It was, you know, Ron DeSantis was leading in the polls, if you remember, double digits by the end of 2022. And then he gave this speech at CPAC where he used that line. You know, he said, I told you, I am your voice in 2016. Now I tell you, I am your retribution. And that gave his campaign this energy. And then you had the indictments coming in. He started his campaign. The first rally of his campaign was at Waco, Texas. I mean, I wrote a book like 30 years ago this December, I wrote a book called the Right to Bear the Rise of America's New Militias, about the right wing militia groups, Timothy McVeigh and all of that. And Waco, Texas was the rallying cry for those people. It was the symbol of the government out of control and coming after you. And now Trump is going to Waco. And then sitting through that trial in New York, the hush money trial. And I could just see the seething resentment that he had that he had to go to that courtroom every day. Four days a week you've been down there. Just 100 center seats, a dingy, dark, dirty, dirty. I mean, I describe when I. Cause I went down and sat through several days down there. And you know, you go through the front door of the courthouse, the first thing you notice is there's big rat traps outside. You know, mice and rats all over the place. I mean, and he's gotta be there and he can't Leave. Even, like, during the lunch breaks, he's gotta be there in some dark, cold room, and he just. You could see he was plotting. I am going to get even with all of these people. If I get back into power.
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Host 1
Do you feel like there will ever actually be, like, retribution that he thinks. Cause there's always something new that he feels like he has to, like, get back.
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DJ Envy
Oh, he's getting people back.
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Host 1
I mean, he's getting people back, but, like, is there a place where it stops, where he gets to the point where he's like, yo, I done got y'. All. I done did enough?
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John Carr
No, no, no. I mean, you'd think, first of all, you would think that the guy, he got back to the White House and he won. You would think that maybe at that point, you'd be like, okay, I've proved everybody wrong. I'm here. I'm in power again. No, he's gonna keep going. And here's the thing. It's not just his political opponents. It's not just the Democrats. It's not just the prosecutors. It's not. It's not just the people that literally went after him. I think that the thing that motivates him the most is getting back at Republicans who he believes didn't sufficiently support him.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Really?
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John Carr
Yeah. I mean, yeah. The other day, Steve Bannon said something. Steve Bannon said that Bill Barr belongs in prison. Bill Barr. I mean, this is like, you know, and his Barr sin was that he didn't back Trump on the efforts to overthrow the 2020 election. And, you know, I mean, so his first motivation that the beginning of the retribution campaign actually begins in the days after he leaves the White House. He goes to Mar A Lago. He's really seen as a pariah even by most of the Republican leadership. He's banned on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all of that. Corporations are saying they're not gonna give money to Republicans that backed him in overturning the election. And. And he's in a very dark place. I mean, I described this pretty graphically in my previous book about his exile down there. But what is the first project he has? His pollster gives him a memo that shows him that Liz Cheney can be beaten. Wyoming. Liz Cheney, who voted to impeach him. And that is the beginning he is now focused on. First, I'm going to go after those. Damn, those 10 Republicans that voted to impeach me in the House. They're gone. And he defeats Liz Cheney. So he, you know, I mean, he expects Democrats to be his Opponents. He knows prosecutors do what prosecutors do. It's those Republicans.
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Charlamagne Tha God
So is that to put fear in the team that's around him now? To let y' all know y' all better always go along with me, because if y' all get out of line, then it'll be retribution against y', all, too.
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John Carr
That's a huge factor, and it's pretty damn effective. I mean, this is the other thing you talk about. What's different from the first time, the first time you had Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell as the leaders in the Congress. Neither one of them had any loyalty whatsoever, personal loyalty to Trump, and in fact, had opposed him strongly in the case, actually, in Both cases in 2016, in the Republican primary. And now you have. I mean, Thune has a degree of independence, but, like, I mean, the Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, he's almost behaves like he's a member of the Trump staff. I mean, the House is there to do the will of the White House. I mean, you didn't have that before.
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DJ Envy
When you were writing this book and you spoke to a lot of people with doing this book was did anybody not want to do it or was scared to talk with you or speak with you because they said he might.
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John Carr
Come back for me, you definitely, always, always. And yet. And what's. What I really tried to do with this book was to get people who would talk to me on the record. And I succeeded in some of the big, you know, some of the key players I mentioned, Steve Bannon, I mean, hours of conversations with this guy. Bobby Kennedy was somebody I was talking to throughout the campaign. On the other side, Hunter Biden, like, really opened up to me. And what I did with some of these people is I said, okay, talk to me. Tell me the story. I am not. This is for a book. It's not going to affect anything. Just talk to me. And it's for history. And that kind of draws them out. But there and then there were some people that just didn't want to. Don't want to be seen with me or with a reporter, because then they might be like, aha, you saw this. Like, there was a Todd Blanche who now obviously at the Justice Department, but was the lead on his defense cases during the transition. Somebody took a picture of him meeting with a CNN reporter and, like, put it all out as if this was, like, proof he's not sufficiently on the team.
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Host 1
I saw Hunter Biden told you that he was really upset when Obama led Biden off the stage in that viral video. So when you are talking to people about these moments that will bring these moments back up again. Like he's upset it went viral in the first place. He's upset Obama did it, but then he sits down and talks to you, which brings it back up again, Right?
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John Carr
Exactly.
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Host 1
What is the conversation? I guess after the book comes out and people pick that up. Cuz that was the main focus of.
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John Carr
The news conversation and now you're seeing it again.
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Host 1
Exactly. So does Hunter Biden then call you back and be like, we need to do another interview. Or like, how do you handle the. Not the backlash, but the conversation that comes back up because of your book from these people that you sit down with?
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John Carr
By the way, that was such an interesting conversation with Hunter Biden. So I talked to him over the phone a lot during the course of the campaign, including when there was that big effort to get his father to drop out. And he was like one of the few people actually talking to President Biden every day. I mean, even like his top aides were. Many of them were isolated. I mean, the chief of staff, Jeff Zients, when Biden had the final meeting where he decides he's not gonna run again, the chief of staff's not even there. He's not even part of the meeting. He gets called later, by the way, I decided I'm not gonna run. But Hunter was so passionate in his anger towards Obama. He said he was there at that fundraiser for that viral moment and he wanted to jump up on the stage and say, you don't touch the President of the United States. And then he also is angry about the George Clooney op ed, which he blames Obama for. He's also saying, I guess we just have a. We Bidens have a different idea of what it means to be a friend.
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Charlamagne Tha God
So you mad at George Clooney for telling the truth? Shouldn't you be kind of mad at your father for running again for a second term when he probably wasn't gonna be in the best physical condition?
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Host 1
And then throws Obama in the mix like Obama's throws Obama?
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John Carr
Yeah, yeah. Obama, who's not. Didn't write the thing.
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Charlamagne Tha God
So Obama should just let him wander around the stage?
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John Carr
I mean, I mean, it is. First of all, a few of those people really close and tight around Obama are. I mean, Biden are still absolutely convinced that he could have won and that this was a tragedy, that the Democrats forced him out. I mean, it's.
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Charlamagne Tha God
We should never talk to those people that. I'm not even joking. We should leave those people in the past like, they should be out the pasture, just, like, buying this.
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John Carr
Here's the thing. Sometimes the biggest news is what didn't happen. The most consequential decision of Joe Biden's life, professional life, was the decision to run again. I mean, it erases virtually everything that he did as president.
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Charlamagne Tha God
And.
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John Carr
They never had a meeting on it.
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DJ Envy
No.
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John Carr
They never sat down and said, what are the pros and cons running again? Not running again. What does it look like? I mean, Hunter himself said the machinery just went. We never really discussed, should we? And then that is the biggest decision.
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Charlamagne Tha God
That's one of the biggest. That's one of the most glaring things from the vice president's book, 107 days that I feel like people didn't discuss enough when she said that Biden shouldn't have been able to make that decision alone. I think I'm paraphrasing a little bit. It was reckless for him to make that decision on his own. And I'm like, how would that ever be a decision y' all let him make on his own?
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John Carr
And all, all the, you know, it's not just the party, it's not just the White House leadership, the vice President, it's the whole Democratic apparatus. I mean, nobody going in and saying, wait a minute, let's think about this.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. And, you know, to me, that's a whole other book. But at some point, somebody's gonna have to sit down and talk about how that decision and the decision to hire Merrick Garland is why we ended up where we currently are right now.
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John Carr
Yeah. Yeah.
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Charlamagne Tha God
In the book, you describe how a new team was formed around Trump with the goal of a new world order. Can you walk us through, like, one or two behind the scenes organizational or strategic decisions that reveal how his team, how this team operated differently than previous political campaigns?
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John Carr
Well, I spent a great deal of time describing what was actually happening at Mar A Lago. And if you remember, there was some political commentary at the time saying, man, Trump, this time around has got it more together. There's less drama surrounding the transition. The. They're putting out their nominees in a quicker pace. I mean, no, it was total chaos.
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State Farm Ad Voice
Really?
- [16:48]
John Carr
Yes. You had.
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Host 1
You didn't feel like it.
- [16:51]
John Carr
I mean, you had. The campaign transition office was actually a couple miles away in West Palm beach, where the campaign. It was. The old campaign office became the transition office. Mar a Lago is actually a pretty small place. There's only one open office, which is Trump's office. So you had all these transition people working two miles away, but none of it mattered. They were preparing lists and interviewing potential candidates and doing their vetting. And then it was like Trump deciding on his own and surprising the people that were running his transition. So, Pete Hegseth, I described Mar A Lago. There's a place called the Living Room. It's really the lobby. And people would go and wait for their meetings, either with Lutnick and the transition team or upstairs to go and have their big meeting with Trump. And there's a scene where there's a candidate for Attorney General sitting on the couch next to a candidate for energy secretary. Matt Gaetz is running around. He's not even considered an attorney general candidate. He's just considered a guy that's helping out. And Pete Hegseth shows up and they all think he's there to interview Trump because he's the Fox weekend guy. And so Trump didn't even, like, talk to his people about this. It was like, pete's the man. Let's just do him. So it's really the way it was all centered around Trump and his whim and what he wanted. It was. You didn't have anybody, actually, Let me back up a second. The one thing that is very different is that, first of all, he knew his way around, so he didn't think he needed to rely on anybody for advice. But you also had some of the people that had been with him all along had been preparing for what they would do if he got back into office. Stephen Miller started a group called America First Legal, and they'd worked for three plus years thinking about executive orders that they would do if Trump got back in preparing drafts of these things. This, even. This predates Project 2025, but, yeah, absolutely, Project 2025. So they were ready with an agenda, and it's ultimately Trump's agenda, but they were ready with. Here's the roadmap. Here is how you're really going to do it.
- [19:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
What surprises you most about how, I guess American presidential campaigns and, and governance.
- [19:28]
John Carr
Yeah.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Are, are changing?
- [19:31]
John Carr
It's, it's the absolute power that we're seeing vested in the executive. I mean, we have a system of checks and balances in this country. You know, it's. I mean, that's, that's the idea. I mean, that's a great question. Do we still have that? It is very much put. I mean, the House of Representatives has just been out of session for 54 days. And did it matter?
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State Farm Ad Voice 2
Nope.
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John Carr
I mean, was there anything different? To quote Bannon, again, he called, and I don't know if he was being complimentary or not. He called the congress the equivalent of the Russian duma, which is just like, I mean, not even rubber stamped. You don't even need it to be stamped. So Trump, this flurry of executive orders, tariffs, I mean, the supreme court case will be the most interesting thing to watch in this term of the supreme Court. I mean, the fact that the idea that a president can come out and impose tariffs on virtually every country in the world, the constitution makes it clear that congress controls the power to tax and impose duties. And I mean, I think about my life covering politics. The debates over trade are big debates. You know, nafta, the U. S. Mexico free trade agreement to tpp, all these things that are negotiated and then congress needs to ratify them. And if they don't, they don't go into effect. And Trump just holds a press conference in the rose garden. And sudden, what a matchup we got, y'.
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State Farm Ad Voice 2
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- [21:43]
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- [22:55]
BET Promo Announcer
Tonight at 10, 9 Central on BET, an all new episode of 106 in Sports from executive producers LeBron James and Maverick Carter. It's a new top five countdown with hosts Ashley Nicole Moss and Cam Newton. They're breaking down the top moments in sports, culture and entertainment and highlighting both established pros and the stars on the come up. Watch the all new series 106 in sports tonight at 10, 9 Central on BET or catch up the next day on BET.
- [23:27]
DJ Envy
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- [24:29]
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- [26:13]
John Carr
You have these mass tariffs, so we'll see if that gets knocked down. I mean, the Supreme Court seemed pretty damn skeptical of it, but, you know, he has, I mean, pushed. It's not enough to push the bounds of the power of the executive, but beyond anything we've ever seen.
- [26:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
Why do we even still believe in the Supreme Court? Like the Supreme Court has not been a legitimate institution for a long time.
- [26:37]
John Carr
Well, let's see what they do on this.
- [26:39]
Charlamagne Tha God
We say that about every single. But they have proven where their loyalty lies.
- [26:44]
John Carr
Yeah, I mean, don't you think so? Like, I mean, I mean, there's no question that that conservative majority has served Trump very well, especially in terms of knocking down or freezing the rulings of all those lower courts.
- [27:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I think it's ridiculous when people say things about Trump and they be like, you know, he's committing crimes. Actually, he's not because of the Supreme Court presidential immunity.
- [27:08]
John Carr
I mean, this was the amazing thing about this election is that for Trump himself, he faced two possible outcomes. He loses and he might go to prison. I mean, there's a really decent chance he's gonna go to prison or he's gonna spend the rest of his life fighting to stay out of prison. Or he wins. He doesn't just become president again. He becomes the most powerful president of our time. Because the Supreme Court Says basically you can do anything you want, as long as it's tied in some way to your job, you have immunity. So the one place that the Supreme Court did defy him, and there have been a couple of instances, but one big one in recent years, was he really thought the Supreme Court was going to ride to the rescue and nullify the election in 2020, and they refused. So we'll see. I think the tariffs thing will be a big test because you talk to conservatives, judicial conservatives. I mean, there's no way that a president has the power to unilaterally impose taxes on the rest of the world. So what do they do on this? And Trump is trying to pressure them. He's saying if we don't, if they rule the wrong way, we won't have a country anymore, et cetera, et cetera. But let's see. I actually think that they're gonna slap him down on this, but we'll see.
- [28:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
What legacy do you think this will have on future campaigns, future governance? Cuz I feel like this only works for Trump.
- [28:32]
John Carr
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's no Republican that I can see that would just suddenly inherit the movement and everybody would do what they've done for him, which is total loyalty. Even when they disagree with him. Well, we don't disagree with him anymore. I mean, J.D. vance doesn't command that kind of power. Marco Rubio doesn't command that kind of power. But I do think that the rules of the game have changed. And I think the next Democratic president, I mean, you see what Gavin Newsom did on the redistricting, and he's quite clear about it. It's like, we can sit here and talk about our good government stuff that we. But no, they've fought dirty. And basically he's saying we have to fight dirty back. So this governing by executive order is something, and we'll see how much of it gets knocked down. But I mean, I think this is part of what's going to happen now.
- [29:26]
DJ Envy
So you don't see a third term. You don't see him trying for a third term.
- [29:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't even like that conversation. Yeah, I think we shouldn't even be having that conversation.
- [29:32]
John Carr
The 22nd Amendment says it just can't happen.
- [29:35]
DJ Envy
There's so many things that they said that can't happen, that he does, that happens.
- [29:38]
John Carr
You know, I had a conversation with John Kelly shortly after he left the White House as Chief of staff. So Trump was still in power. And I was having kind of. It's amazing to think back at it. But I was just wondering, I was beginning to write my very first book on all of this, and I was just, just what happens if Trump doesn't leave office? This is first term, way before January 6th and all that. And I was just like, what happens? So I asked Kelly this again, retired four star Marine general, a guy who's seen a lot. And he said, oh, no, no, he's gonna leave. Trust me, he's gonna leave. And then he paused and he said, and if he doesn't want to, he could chain himself to the Resolute desk and there will be people who quietly go into the Oval Office and cut the chains and take them out. So I don't know if that's. I thought there was just such a vivid image that we do have a system, but he has installed loyalists everywhere, and I think it's gonna be very hard for him to leave office, but he can't run again according. Unless you think our Constitution doesn't mean anything.
- [30:47]
Charlamagne Tha God
They kind of treat him like it don't mean anything. Now, I wanted to ask you, did you talk to any of those generals and admirals who went to that meeting a couple months ago where they basically was trying to get them to pledge allegiance to them? That's what it felt like to me. It felt like they were trying to get those generals and admirals to pledge allegiance to them and not the Constitution. Did you talk to anybody?
- [31:02]
John Carr
Yeah, I've kept in touch with a number of our senior military leaders who will privately say that they were horrified by what happened.
- [31:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's refreshing to hear.
- [31:16]
John Carr
Okay. And horrified. What happened earlier in the year at Fort Bragg? Do you remember this one? When Trump went to give a speech at Fort Bragg and they actually, somebody brought in onto the base these tents to sell merchandise, Trump campaign merchandise. The troops cheered him on as he gave a very political speech attacking Gavin Newsom, attacking the mayor of Los Angeles, attacking the Democrats in the Senate. And it looked like a campaign rally. And it turned out that there was a memo that went out to some of the troops at Fort Bragg, basically saying, if you don't agree with Trump, you don't have to come to this. We want to have people that are going to be fully supportive. And the military is a nonpartisan institution. It has to be. It has to be for our country for our democracy to mean anything. And those senior military officers, for the most part, take that really seriously. And that's why I think when, you know, when Hegseth brings them in to do that and gives that speech, and you see Them not respond. They weren't clapping and cheering. They were. You know, they have to follow the orders and they come and they look, but they were not gonna be political props.
- [32:36]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's good. That's refreshing to hear.
- [32:38]
John Carr
Yeah.
- [32:39]
Host 1
Okay, let's talk about the media side of it. Right?
- [32:43]
DJ Envy
Yep.
- [32:43]
Host 1
Cause we all know that Trump has his thing with the media that he likes and he dislikes. So there was the question that you asked him about the hate speech.
- [32:50]
John Carr
Yeah.
- [32:50]
Host 1
After Charlie Kirk's death. Right. And he verbatim said to you, you asked, what will happen.
- [32:59]
John Carr
I asked him. I said, pam Bondi says she's gonna go after hate speech. Some of your own allies say hate speech is free speech.
- [33:04]
Host 1
Yes. And he says that she'll probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. You have a lot of hate in your heart. Maybe they'll come after ABC. ABC paid me $16 million recently for a form of hate speech. Your company paid me 16 million for a form of hate speech. So maybe they'll have to go after you.
- [33:20]
John Carr
Yeah.
- [33:20]
Host 1
Direct, back and forth like that.
- [33:22]
John Carr
Yeah.
- [33:22]
Host 1
You're still out here asking these questions and covering. People are very scared of their jobs right now in the media space, behind the scenes, what's the feeling of, like, what does media even look like six months from now if Trump is able to do and say things like this and then we actually see action?
- [33:36]
DJ Envy
How did you feel after he said that?
- [33:38]
John Carr
Well, I'll tell you, that was. That was intense because I was. You know, you don't get surprised much anymore by anything he says, but when he said that, maybe she'll go after.
- [33:48]
Host 1
People like you, like, personally.
- [33:52]
John Carr
And then he goes on and he says, you know, because you've been unfair to me. So you're saying that the First Amendment doesn't apply to a journalist who the President thinks hasn't been fair. I mean, that was intense. As a matter of fact, he said, you have a lot of hate in your heart. I have to tell you, this is a strange thing. I was so taken aback by the notion that the President of the United States was suggesting that it would, because hate speech is one. He's actually going way further than what Pam Bondi said. He's saying, maybe the Justice Department will go after reporters who I don't think are fair to me that I didn't even process the next thing he said, which you have a lot of hate in your heart. I didn't even, like. I don't know. It was something. It just.
- [34:37]
Host 1
I mean, he's saying, it's you next.
- [34:39]
John Carr
Yeah, it went by me. So when the whole thing ended, one of the photographers behind me said, man, do you have hate in your heart? I didn't know what he was talking about. I almost did it. I was like, oh, wait. So I. You know, he says, look, he's taunted. He attacks journalists. He attacks journalists, and then he takes phone calls from reporters. You know, I mean, shortly after he said that, it was actually in response to the same question, because he went on and on and on. He started going off about how Washington, D.C. is safe again now that we have the National Guard and you should take your beautiful wife out to dinner tonight after you just told me I might. Maybe I should go next. Yeah.
- [35:24]
DJ Envy
Your last dinner.
- [35:25]
John Carr
And later in the day, he had an event in the Oval Office, and he turned it into one of these long press conferences. And I continued my questioning about free speech, and he got very irritated with me, and he said, and you think you're a wonderful person. You're not a wonderful person. You are a terrible reporter. You know it, I know it. Everybody knows it. And he goes. And again, this is the President of the United States. As a reporter, you're not usually in a. You don't think you're gonna have this kind of a situation. I've done. What I've always done is I ignore the taunts because it doesn't matter. I don't want to make it about me, so I don't. I just don't. I just get back to, you know, the subject, free speech. But when it ended and they tell the press to get out of the Oval Office because the photo op is over, he motioned to me to come towards the Resolute desk. And he motioned like this, and he said, yeah, we're okay. You know, we're okay. And I was like, you were. You were tough there. And he's like, no, no, you were tough. And he starts laughing and then says, thank you. Thank you as I'm walking out. Thank you, John. Thank you, John. So it's like. It's like a.
- [36:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
He's performing.
- [36:35]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [36:35]
John Carr
But it's a performance. But so. And I. My. One of my daughters, as I'm getting this book's coming out, and just did a quick little, I guess, a Google search, but to compile some of the things that Trump has said about me over the years. It's a really long list, but to me, it's like, I don't care. It doesn't matter, and I'll just do my job. And I don't now, if he follows through with that, and I like, if he starts jailing reporters or trying to jail reporters because he doesn't like the reporting, you know, we're in a whole different place. But, you know, to me, a lot of it is he's just. It's a bit of a game. And he does get angry, and he does get pissed off. He thinks that everybody should be talking about how wonderful he is at all times. But, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna do that. And I'm also not gonna sit there and get, like, my backup because he calls me a name.
- [37:31]
Host 1
So there's no real fear. There's no real. I'm asking, is there real fear that people have? Cause we on this side looks like. And it feels like, yeah, I mean.
- [37:37]
John Carr
Look, I think that's for some people, yes. But I can just speak for myself and for my colleagues. I mean, another one of my colleagues, Rachel Scott, has come under withering attacks from Donald Trump. I mean, just relentless. And by the way, she's, like, ridiculously young, and I don't know where the poise and the. I mean, I've been through so much of this, but Rachel has got. I mean, her heartbeat doesn't rise. She just keeps focused on the issue. And, you know, I mean, does it bother people? Yeah. But you do what Rachel does, or what I've tried to do, which is just stay focused on what you're trying to ask, and you can't be intimidated.
- [38:21]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. There is a normalization that I feel continues to happen with Trump, not just from the media, but from, like, other politicians, especially Democrats. It's like people, for some reason, continue to act like this is just politics as usual.
- [38:34]
John Carr
Yeah, it's not.
- [38:35]
Charlamagne Tha God
No. And I even saw that with the government shutdown. I'm like, why are y' all talking like y' all can actually negotiate with MAGA on this issue? Like, they got everything they want in the big, beautiful bill. They have no reason to make concessions. When you continue to act like these are the reasonable politicians who are gonna say, you know, what we do care about, you know, people's healthcare benefits. Like, you know, they're not. So why do you keep acting like that and even trying to sell that to the people?
- [39:01]
John Carr
You know, this was the shutdown. I mean, my God. So the Democrats realized they had zero leverage except for being able to, you know, withhold their votes for keeping the government open. That's the only leverage they had. Otherwise, the Republicans can just, you know, push all this, even with. I mean, the Republican majority is really small. It's tiny. I mean, it's like, it's incredible what's gone through the House when you consider they have this majority, it's almost tied. I mean, they can only lose a couple of votes on a couple Republicans on any one issue. But look, so they use the leverage. And in a normal world, you would think, yeah, I mean, there's so much pain. Look what's happening to the airports. Look what's happening.
- [39:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
People lose the SNAP benefits. Federal workers that haven't been paid in 40 days.
- [39:55]
John Carr
Yeah, yeah. 40 million plus people rely on these SNAP benefits. And not only are they not. Is the White House not. Doesn't seem concerned about that, they actually fight efforts by the court, by the states, to continue funding the SNAP benefits and take it all the way to the Supreme Court, for God's sake, to try to stop it. So I think what the Democrats saw quite vividly is the pressure's not going to work. Because when you're playing with somebody that doesn't care.
- [40:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
But why did they think it would to begin with? It's like we've been watching 10 years of this.
- [40:34]
John Carr
All right, yeah.
- [40:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, what made them think it would work to begin with? That's what I mean when I say the normalization of it. Because for whatever reason, people haven't adjusted their brains to realize this ain't your grandparents, Republican Joe.
- [40:45]
John Carr
Yeah.
- [40:46]
Charlamagne Tha God
You can't use words like authoritarian and fascism and not treat them as such.
- [40:51]
John Carr
Yeah, yeah. So what? They will. The way the Democrats think that this has ultimately played out is they didn't succeed, obviously, in dealing with the health, with health care, you know, the Obamacare, they'll get their vote. It's not going to succeed. Even if it succeeds in the Senate, they're not going to vote on it in the House. Even if they somehow voted on it in the House, Trump's not gonna sign it into law. I mean, they're not gonna get it. They're just not gonna get it. But what they believe that they have done is they have succeeded in making it vividly clear to the world, to the country, that he's gonna do Nothing for the 20 plus million Americans that are gonna see their health insurance skyrocket on January 1st, that he would do nothing to help the 40 plus million who are losing access to SNAP benefits that make it possible to feed their families.
- [41:45]
Charlamagne Tha God
You think he'll create self care?
- [41:46]
John Carr
So, I mean, they've been promising a health care bill for what is it, like 8, 8, 8, 8 plus year? I mean, a Health care plan. It's a secret plan. It's like Nixon's secret plan to end the Vietnam War.
- [42:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
What do you see as the greatest risk to American democratic institutions in the coming years?
- [42:06]
John Carr
I think that the greatest risk to our institutions is the erosion of the idea of truth. I think this is more beyond any single policy thing, beyond even Trump himself, is we now live in a world where you can ask somebody, you're gonna believe me or your own lying eyes, and it's unclear what they're gonna believe. If you can't agree on what the facts are, how do you overcome divisions? How do you get anything done? And Trump has accelerated this. He didn't start it. He has accelerated this. And now throw into the mix artificial intelligence. I mean, it's like we are in a crazy land. And by the way, I see it on the left as well, where the crazy conspiracy theories of late have been the province of the right. All the wacky conspiracy theories around 2020, and Sidney Powell saying that dead Venezuelans rigged voting machines or voting machines were controlled by spy satellites. I mean, crazy, crazy stuff. And now, I mean, I can't tell you how many people I've come and tell you that Trump rigged the 2024 election, and it was Elon Musk and it was Starlink, and they controlled the voting machines. It's like the same conspiracies. It's like, can we just try to establish facts? And that's the business that I am in, and I'm desperately trying. That's why I wanted to write these books again, because I wanted to. First of all, I felt I had the access and I had the vantage point to be able to shed new light on the events that we're going through. But I also wanted to make sure that people don't rewrite it and pretend things that happened that didn't happen. That's right.
- [43:57]
Charlamagne Tha God
So that means all your books are getting banned soon. Absolutely.
- [44:00]
John Carr
Get them soon, before they're done.
- [44:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
If you were looking back. This is my last question. If you were looking back in 10 or 20 years at this campaign, what will historians say it did to the Republican Party? What would they say it did to the presidency and the media? And what do you hope your legacy will be as a chronicler of this era?
- [44:18]
John Carr
I think that it utterly. It completed the utter transformation of the Republican Party from the Republican Party to the Trump Party. It started before the campaign, but it was absolutely solidified. This is not Reagan's Republican Party. It's not Bush's Republican Party. It's not Paul Ryan's, it's not Mitt Romney's. This is an entirely different Republican Party, both substantly in terms of policy and just in terms of the force of the personality of Trump. How long that lasts long, what it means after there is no longer a Donald Trump remains to be seen. But I don't think you suddenly go back to the old Republican Party that's gone the country. I think it just solidified that division in our country that is not going to be overcome after Trump is gone. I mean, we are in a place where we have a political and cultural divide in the country that I don't think is going to go away. And, and in terms of my legacy on this, or I don't know if I even look at it that way, but what I hope people will say is, look, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, people are going to want to ask, what the hell was that all about? And I hope that these books, especially this one, somebody can say, read this and you'll get a sense of what it was like and how it happened.
- [45:47]
State Farm Ad Voice
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- [45:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
Get it before it's banned, y'.
- [45:49]
John Carr
All.
- [45:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
Retribution.
- [45:50]
DJ Envy
Donald Trump and the campaign that changed America.
- [45:53]
State Farm Ad Voice
Jonathan Call.
- [45:53]
DJ Envy
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us.
- [45:54]
John Carr
Hey, it's awesome to be with the Breakfast Club. Thank you.
- [45:57]
DJ Envy
It's the Breakfast Club.
- [45:58]
John Carr
Good morning.
- [46:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
Every day I wake up.
- [46:01]
DJ Envy
Wake your ass up.
- [46:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
The Breakfast Club. You all finished or y' all done?
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Coca-Cola Ad Voice
What a matchup we got, y'.
- [46:09]
John Carr
All.
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Coca-Cola Ad Voice
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State Farm Ad Voice 2
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- [48:56]
DJ Envy
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John Carr
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John Carr
See mintmobile.com this is an iHeart podcast.