The Breakfast Club: Jonathan Karl Talks 'Retribution', Trump, Free Speech, Biden & More

Podcast: The Breakfast Club (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode: INTERVIEW: Jonathan Karl Talks New Book 'Retribution', Trump Administration, Free Speech, Biden + More
Date: November 17, 2025
Featured Guest: Jonathan Karl, Chief Washington Correspondent for ABC News and author of "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America"
Hosts: DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha God (Lenard McKelvey)

Episode Overview

This in-depth episode features an interview with veteran political journalist Jonathan Karl discussing his new book "Retribution," which chronicles the return of Donald Trump, the complete transformation of the Republican Party, the breakdown of traditional American democratic norms, and the state of journalism and free speech in the new political climate. The conversation ranges from Karl's reporting experiences, the evolution of Trumpism, the erosion of checks and balances, and the future risks to American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writing 'Retribution' – Documenting History in Real Time

• Jonathan Karl explains his motivation:
  • He’s now written four books on Trump, investing 1,500+ pages in attempting to capture a turbulent era:

    “I felt like I was watching history unfold and I saw people trying to rewrite the history as it was happening. And that's why … I’ve poured my heart and soul into these books.” (03:11, Jonathan Karl)

• Initial expectations vs. reality:
  • Karl once thought Trump’s comeback was highly unlikely but saw its momentum building late in the campaign, especially as the Kamala Harris campaign showed “desperation” and shifted tactics. (05:28–06:12)

2. The Evolution of Trump and American Politics

• The difference between Trump’s first and second terms:
  • The second term is fundamentally changing how America is governed:

    "His first term was chaotic … there was no real lasting impact. I mean, now look what he's doing… our country is changing, the use of executive power. You have a president that's shown you can just basically ignore Congress, get into the precipice of ignoring the courts. We're in a totally different phase." (03:38–04:28, Karl)

• Rise of “Retribution” as a Campaign Theme:
  • Trump’s 2024 campaign was energized by the promise:

    “He gave this speech at CPAC … ‘I told you, I am your voice in 2016. Now I tell you, I am your retribution.’” (06:21, Karl)

  • The symbolic locations and timing—like rallying at Waco, TX—intensified the message to his base and evoked right-wing grievances.

3. The Mechanics and Motivation Behind Retribution

• Who is Trump targeting?

  • Not just Democrats or prosecutors, but especially Republican defectors:

    "The thing that motivates him the most is getting back at Republicans who he believes didn't sufficiently support him." (08:24, Karl)

  • He methodically sought to eliminate the 10 House Republicans who voted for his impeachment—“they’re gone”—starting with defeating Liz Cheney. (08:59–10:22)

• Instilling fear and loyalty:

  • Trump’s retribution campaign also functions to keep current allies in line:

    “It’s a huge factor and it’s pretty damn effective … The House is there to do the will of the White House. I mean, you didn’t have that before.” (10:30–11:17, Karl)

• Sourcing and conversations for the book:

  • Some political players are fearful to converse with reporters for fear of retribution; Karl relied on getting key figures to speak on-record by framing it as a matter of historical record. (11:26–12:35)

4. Biden, the Democrats, and Internal Turmoil

• Unique access to figures like Hunter Biden:

  • Karl recounts Hunter Biden’s anger at Obama’s perceived interference and at critics within the party:

    “[Hunter] wanted to jump up on the stage and say, you don’t touch the President of the United States … He’s also saying, I guess we just have a different idea of what it means to be a friend.” (13:09–14:07, Karl)

• Lack of Democratic decision-making around Biden’s run:

  • Decision for Biden to run again was never properly discussed with party leadership, which Karl identifies as one of the most consequential (and reckless) choices in recent history. (15:10–15:42)

• Charlamagne's blunt reaction:

  “That’s one of the most glaring things … It was reckless for him to make that decision on his own. And I’m like, how would that ever be a decision y’all let him make on his own?” (15:24, Charlamagne)

5. Trump’s New Team & Chaos Behind the Scenes

• Organizational chaos vs. illusion of order:

  “There was some political commentary at the time saying, man, Trump, this time around has got it more together. … No, it was total chaos.” (16:23–16:49, Karl)

  • Decision-making happened at Trump’s whim; even transition officials were left out of the loop.

• Long-term planning for aggressive executive action:

  • Key players like Stephen Miller had been preparing for years for a possible Trump return, drafting executive orders and building agenda roadmaps (including Project 2025). (17:54–19:22)

6. Checks, Balances, and the Collapse of Congressional Power

• Shift in the balance of power:

  “It’s the absolute power that we’re seeing vested in the executive … The House of Representatives has just been out of session for 54 days. And did it matter?” (19:31–19:50, Karl)

  • Steve Bannon compared Congress to the “Russian duma … not even rubber stamped.” (19:50)

• Presidential authority unbound:

  • Trump’s tariffs and use of executive orders challenge the core constitutional powers of Congress. (20:57)

7. The Supreme Court & Institutional Legitimacy

• Charlamagne’s skepticism:

  “Why do we even still believe in the Supreme Court? Like the Supreme Court has not been a legitimate institution for a long time.” (26:31, Charlamagne)

• Karl on Presidential immunity and legal jeopardy:

  “He doesn’t just become president again. He becomes the most powerful president of our time. Because the Supreme Court says basically you can do anything you want … you have immunity.” (27:07, Karl)

• Karl argues that the upcoming Supreme Court ruling on tariffs may be a critical test for the institution’s independence from Trump. (27:07–28:23)

8. The Legacy and Future of Trumpism

• Trump’s movement is unique and not transferable:

  “There’s no Republican that I can see that would … inherit the movement … But the rules of the game have changed.” (28:32–29:26, Karl)

  • Governing by executive order is now seen as standard by both parties.

9. The Persistent Threats to Democratic Norms

• Constitutional guardrails under strain:

  • Karl recounts a vivid quote from former Chief of Staff John Kelly regarding Trump refusing to leave office:

    “He could chain himself to the Resolute desk and there will be people who quietly go into the Oval Office and cut the chains and take them out.” (29:38–30:46, Karl)

• Concerns about politicizing the military:

  “I've kept in touch with a number of our senior military leaders who will privately say that they were horrified by what happened … The military is a nonpartisan institution. It has to be.” (31:02–32:35, Karl)

10. Journalism, Free Speech, and Trump’s Antagonism

• Direct threats to the media:

  • After Karl questioned Trump about hate speech, Trump replied:

    “She’ll probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. You have a lot of hate in your heart. Maybe they’ll come after ABC.” (reported by Host 1, 33:04–33:22)

  • Karl, unfazed, describes Trump’s performance and how veteran reporters weather the attacks:

    “He's performing … you know, to me, a lot of it is he's just. It's a bit of a game. And he does get angry … But, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna do that. And I'm also not gonna sit there and get, like, my backup because he calls me a name.” (36:34–37:30, Karl)

  • Karl and his colleagues don’t let intimidation determine their reporting:

    “You do what Rachel does, or what I’ve tried to do, which is just stay focused on what you’re trying to ask, and you can’t be intimidated.” (37:37–38:21, Karl)

11. The Normalization of Trumpism & the Democrats’ Dilemma

• Charlamagne criticizes attempts to treat MAGA Republicans as traditional:

  “There is a normalization that I feel continues to happen with Trump … It’s like people, for some reason, continue to act like this is just politics as usual … You can’t use words like authoritarian and fascism and not treat them as such.” (38:21–40:44, Charlamagne)

• Karl details how Democrats’ leverage has evaporated—and how the suffering of millions (SNAP benefits, health coverage) fails to move the administration. (40:51–41:44)

12. Greatest Risks Ahead: Truth and Disinformation

• Collapse of shared reality:

  “The greatest risk to our institutions is the erosion of the idea of truth … If you can’t agree on what the facts are, how do you overcome divisions? How do you get anything done?” (42:05–43:56, Karl)

  • Spread of conspiracy theories is now bipartisan and exacerbated by AI and the breakdown in agreed-upon facts.

• Karl’s commitment:

  • His books aim to preserve an accurate record for future generations.

    “I hope that these books, especially this one, somebody can say, read this and you'll get a sense of what it was like and how it happened.” (44:18–45:47, Karl)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Reality of Trump's “Retribution”:

  “The first motivation … actually begins in the days after he leaves the White House. ... That is the beginning he is now focused on. First, I’m going to go after those ... Republicans that voted to impeach me in the House. They’re gone.”
  — Jonathan Karl (08:59)

• On the State of Checks & Balances:

  “It’s the absolute power that we’re seeing vested in the executive. ... The House of Representatives has just been out of session for 54 days. And did it matter?”
  — Jonathan Karl (19:31)

• On Erosion of Truth:

  “I think the greatest risk to our institutions is the erosion of the idea of truth.”
  — Jonathan Karl (42:05)

• On Trump’s Interactions with Reporters:

  “You're saying that the First Amendment doesn't apply to a journalist who the President thinks hasn’t been fair. ... As a reporter, you’re not usually in ... this kind of a situation. I just ignore the taunts.”
  — Jonathan Karl (33:51–37:30)

• On the Republican Party’s Transformation:

  “I think that it utterly … completed the utter transformation of the Republican Party from the Republican Party to the Trump Party … This is not Reagan’s Republican Party. … That division … is not going to be overcome after Trump is gone.”
  — Jonathan Karl (44:18)

Key Timestamps

• 03:03: Introduction to Jonathan Karl and his new book
• 06:21: Trump’s “I am your retribution” moment and its impact
• 08:24–10:22: Targeting his own party—retribution against Republicans
• 13:09–15:24: Biden’s decision to run and the internal Democratic perspective
• 16:23–19:22: Behind the scenes of the Trump transition and planning Project 2025
• 19:31–21:42: Congressional obsolescence and the rise of executive power
• 26:31–28:23: Supreme Court legitimacy and presidential immunity
• 30:46–32:35: Civil-military relations and concern about politicizing the military
• 33:04–37:30: Trump’s media antagonism and direct threats to reporters
• 38:21–40:44: The normalization of MAGA politics & the Democrats’ response
• 42:05–43:56: The greatest risk: erosion of truth
• 44:18–45:47: Legacy of the Trump era and changes to the GOP, presidency, and media

Tone & Language

The conversation is frank, urgent, and unsparing—with humor and directness from Charlamagne and DJ Envy, and sobering perspective from Karl. The tone alternates between incredulity at recent political developments and a sense of responsibility to bear witness and defend the truth.

Summary Utility

This summary provides a comprehensive roadmap for listeners and readers to understand the stakes of Jonathan Karl’s new book and the ongoing transformation in American politics, journalism, and democratic norms. Key quotes and timestamps will help users locate crucial sections quickly, fostering deeper engagement with the episode’s substantive content.