INTERVIEW: Kier Gaines Talks Therapy, Dr. Cheyenne Bryant, Finding The Right Therapist, Cultural Competence + More

Summary

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The Breakfast Club Interview: Kier Gaines Talks Therapy, Dr. Cheyenne Bryant, Finding The Right Therapist, Cultural Competence + More

Podcast: The Breakfast Club – The Black Effect Podcast Network & iHeartPodcasts
Date: May 14, 2026
Hosts: Charlamagne Tha God, Lauren LaRosa (DJ Envy and Jess Hilarious absent)
Guest: Kier Gaines (Licensed Therapist, Content Creator, Author of “It All Starts When You Do”)

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Overview

This engaging episode dives deep into mental health with licensed therapist and advocate Kier Gaines. The conversation explores the value and challenges of licensure in therapy, cultural competence, navigating the rise of “influencer therapists” and self-help advice on social media, and practical insights on how to find the right therapist—especially for Black communities. The episode also touches on the difference between therapy and therapeutic content, responsible practice, and the nuanced needs for representation within therapy. Throughout, Kier’s own journey from viral content creator to practicing clinician adds heart and credibility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Licensed Therapy & Expertise

(02:25–04:53, 14:06–15:31, 26:04–27:28)

• Kier emphasizes why holding a clinical license matters: ethics, patient safety, training, and ongoing education.
  • Quote: “For me to be licensed, it makes sure that if somebody walks in the room and says, hey man, you know, I feel like I'm gonna jump off the top of the building tonight. What you gonna do next? All that psycho babble doesn’t help... Quality training backs that up.”
    — Kier Gaines [03:20]
• Social media blurs distinctions between licensed clinicians, life coaches, and influencers. Kier distinguishes true clinical therapy from motivational advice.
• The general public often doesn't know or “may not care” about the differences between therapists, coaches, and motivational speakers—a risk when people seek help in vulnerable states.

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2. The Complex Path to Licensure & Systemic Barriers

(04:53–07:06)

• Lauren raises the systemic challenge for Black clinicians, citing testing disparities and licensure that can disproportionately impact Black candidates' pathways to become licensed therapists.
• Kier details the rigorous process: advanced schooling, practicum, supervised experience, and challenging exams.
• He distinguishes between psychologists (scientists) vs. licensed therapists (practitioners), highlighting the nuance within mental health professions.

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3. Cultural Competence & Black Mental Health

(07:00–10:57, 48:06–52:50)

• Kier dissects how many mainstream modalities weren’t “normed” on Black populations.
  • Quote: “Cultural competency means... being able to treat her knowing how her culture works... [For Black men] cultural competency meets him where he is.”
    — Kier Gaines [08:18]
• Traditional “no self-disclosure” therapy models don’t always work for Black or Brown men—therapists may need to open up more, build trust, and address historical skepticism.
• Charlamagne and Kier agree: the effectiveness of therapy is about fit and aptitude, not just matching racial backgrounds. Still, comfort and connection can be impacted by shared experience.

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4. Navigating the Therapy Search: Finding the Right Fit

(16:18–22:34)

• Lauren and Kier liken searching for a therapist to dating—fit, comfort, and bedside manner matter far more than in other medical fields. Compatibility is crucial.
  • Quote: “Finding a therapist is different than finding a doctor... If you throw me off with your attitude, it ain’t gonna work.”
    — Kier Gaines [17:02]
• Both guests and hosts discuss “firing” or trying out various therapists before finding the right connection. Kier admits to ghosting therapists in the past before learning healthy ways to communicate discomfort or disconnect.

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5. The Influence (and Limits) of Therapy Content on Social Media

(23:45–24:47, 34:46–45:56)

• Kier and Lauren lament that deep, nuanced mental health guidance gets crowded out by bite-size, viral advice or “short form” content, often missing critical context.
  • Quote: “A lot of therapists been getting smoked lately online because they're attempting to unpack very complicated topics in short form content. Short form content is meant to be punchy... you lose a lot of the context.”
    — Kier Gaines [23:45]
• There’s “danger” when people mistake personal experience or influencer advice for clinical expertise.
• Kier stresses the duty of those with a platform to clarify when advice is not therapy, and to honestly represent credentials.
  • Quote: “My podcast, in the very beginning, I said, hey, y’all, I’m a therapist, but I’m not your therapist... If you are having trouble with these things, seek the help of a licensed and qualified professional.”
    — Kier Gaines [33:46]
• He warns against emotional dependence—both on “therapist influencers,” and for therapists themselves on digital audience validation.

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6. The Debate Around Titles, Licensing, & Responsibility

(25:05–27:52, 36:35–40:14)

• The group unpacks controversy over some high-profile mental health figures (e.g., Dr. Cheyenne Bryant) and allegations about credentials, ethics, and billing practices.
• Kier makes it clear: giving “trauma-informed” advice without the proper background may cause harm.
• Referring out—knowing when to admit the limits of your expertise—is a marker of a responsible, ethical therapist.
• Kier debunks claims about insurance, licensure, and billing, cautioning the public to seek clarity and safety.

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7. Therapy vs. Therapeutic — and Real Healing Work

(40:14–43:30)

• Charlamagne asks: How do audiences safely consume self-help content?
• Kier draws a sharp line: many things (gym, music, podcasts) are “therapeutic”—they help, but they aren’t “therapy.”
  • Quote: “The gym is therapeutic. The gym is not therapy... Therapy is a guided specific journey with a qualified professional.”
    — Kier Gaines [40:37]
• The real work of healing occurs outside the session, using tools learned with a therapist to navigate real-life challenges.

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8. Black Men, Emotional Expressiveness, & the “Father Wound”

(52:50–56:25)

• Kier and Charlamagne discuss generational issues: how Black men are often socialized to be emotionally detached, discouraged from vulnerability, and viewed as disposable—even by their partners, families, and society at large.
  • Quote: “Every stage of your maturation is designed to separate you from your emotional reality... You become good at the things you practice. And we get a lot of practice separating ourselves from our emotions.”
    — Kier Gaines [48:06]
• Kier reflects on his own journey as a father and the specific pain of the “father wound”—both when a father was entirely absent or emotionally absent.
  • Quote: “It's a longing not only to have the love that you think that you needed... but now it’s requisite, it’s required of you to demonstrate that warmth in a world where that was never associated with masculinity before.”
    — Kier Gaines [54:05]
• The group highlights the importance of not being hyper-dependent on a romantic partner to fill all emotional needs and the value of diverse support networks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We got all the words, but we don’t got any wisdom. That’s like having a map with no way points and no words on it.”
  — Kier Gaines [03:17]

• “If you don’t have cultural competency, you would not know that [the traditional therapist wall doesn’t work for Black men].”
  — Kier Gaines [08:56]

• “The effectiveness of the therapist is gonna be contingent probably a little bit more on what you find acceptable to share all your information with, where you feel nice and comfy in the session.”
  — Kier Gaines [10:52]

• “Sometimes, something’s better than nothing... If you’ve been starving for 10 years and I slide over a bag of pretzels, you gonna dog that joint like it’s a bone-in rib eye.”
  — Kier Gaines [59:23]

• “Becoming the father I deserve.”
  — Kier reflects on his journey and captioned a video with his daughter [52:55–53:08]

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Important Timestamps

• Licensing and ethics in therapy: [02:25–04:53]
• Challenges in licensure for Black therapists: [05:15–07:06]
• Cultural competency in therapy: [07:09–10:52]
• Do Black people need Black therapists?: [09:52–10:57]
• Viral journey and personal therapy experience: [11:07–13:58]
• Public responsibility of trauma/influencer therapists: [14:06–15:31]
• Therapy as dating/finding the right therapist: [16:18–22:34]
• Social media, short-form content & nuance: [23:45–24:47], [34:46–45:56]
• Dr. Cheyenne Bryant licensing controversy: [25:05–27:52], [36:35–40:14]
• Therapy vs. “therapeutic” activities: [40:28–43:30]
• Black men & the “father wound”: [52:50–56:25]
• Boundaries and healthy dependency: [57:32–59:45]

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Final Thoughts / Closing

Kier Gaines leaves listeners with a charge: seek true healing, not just awareness. Therapy is deeply personal, complex, and should be guided by qualified, culturally competent professionals. Much "self-help" content online is only therapeutic, not a substitute for genuine therapy work. The reality of Black men’s mental health—hampered by generational wounds and societal expectations—calls for nuanced, intentional, and empathetic healing approaches. Kier’s forthcoming book, It All Starts When You Do, and his new podcast, "Learn The Hard Way,” aim to bridge those gaps and support real transformation.

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For more, follow Kier Gaines and check out his podcast "Learn The Hard Way," and preorder his book "It All Starts When You Do" (out September 2026).

Transcript

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Keir Gaines]

If you're into tech, you'll love this. TikTok is a live lab where users post instant reviews of the latest trends. Download TikTok and check it out.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs Banter.

[Timbo]

Where does your group perform?

[Keir Gaines]

We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Timbo]

Last night a blown call changed the game. This morning the Internet lost its mind and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source. The athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports slice on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo, Slice, Life 12 and the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Why are we all so obsessed with

[Sanjanah Bhasker]

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[Lauren LaRosa]

Each episode digs into what these stories

[Sanjanah Bhasker]

reveal about desire, fantasy identity and how we love.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Now listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Keir Gaines]

Hold up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Every day I wake up.

[Keir Gaines]

Wake your ass up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The Breakfast Club. Y' all finish or y' all done? Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show. The Breakfast Club. Charlamagne, the God, DJ Envy. Just hilarious Envy and just aren't here, but Lauren LaRosa is and we got a special guest in the building. Man, I have been watching this brother's work for a long time. He's got a new podcast called Learn the Hard Way. It's Keir Games.

[Keir Gaines]

Yes, sir. I pronounced it right. You pronounced it perfectly.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay. How are you, my brother?

[Keir Gaines]

I'm good. How y' all doing, man.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Blessed, black and highly favored.

[Keir Gaines]

I know that's right, man.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Now, if you don't know who Keir is, he's a mental health advocate, and he is a licensed therapist. Yeah, I feel like it's very important to say that nowadays.

[Keir Gaines]

I feel like that's a hot topic at the moment. I would say so.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You know, I wanted to add, we're in an era where social media has turned a lot of people into mental health influence.

[Keir Gaines]

For sure.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

How important is licensing when somebody is giving, you know, relationship or trauma advice to millions of people?

[Keir Gaines]

You know, I personally find it important to be licensed for myself. It's important because it makes sure that I'm ethically sound, make sure that people are safe around me, make sure that I'm continuing all my education credits, make sure that I'm getting all the training, because it's one thing, you know, we got a lot of therapeutic language being slang about people calling you gaslighter and narcissist, and we got all the words, but people don't really know what happens next in terms of healing.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Healing?

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. Nobody.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Everybody talking about problems, but no solutions.

[Keir Gaines]

No solutions. We just spending a problem. We talking about it why, but not necessarily deeply. So for me to be licensed, it makes sure that if somebody walks in the room and says, hey, man, you know, I feel like I'm gonna jump off the top of the building tonight. What you gonna do next? What's your next move? What's your next move? A man comes in and says, man, I'm feeling like hurting my wife. What you gonna do? What's your next move? All that psycho babble doesn't help when you gotta be in a room with somebody and feel your way around that person and have quality training to back that up. So when we got all the words, but we don't got any wisdom, that's like having a map with no way points and no words on it. You. You'll know that things. You have no idea where you are or where to go.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Do audiences even understand the difference between a licensed therapist, a life coach, a relationship expert, or a motivational speaker anymore? Has social media blurred all of those?

[Keir Gaines]

I don't think so. Social media is not a place for dynamic nuance. So not only do people not know, I honestly don't think that people care. And that's one of the things that I really hone in on when I talk on my platforms. Because therapy, being a licensed clinician is a specific thing, and it's a specific designation by the state that says that you passed all your exams and you're doing all these things you need to do to make sure that you're upholding all the ethical principles of the craft. And that's amazing. When people are hurting, sometimes they just want to hear from somebody. But you got to hear from somebody qualified and trained and steeped in the knowledge to know not just what everything is and what sounds good, but what is the best practice to help move you forward in life.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I was. When we were getting ready for. Did you see our interview with Dr. Chang Bryant?

[Keir Gaines]

I saw clips.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Okay. So when we were getting ready for that interview, I called one of my friends. Her name is Dr. Shonda Reynolds. And she was saying that to me because I was mentioning patient.

[Keir Gaines]

Dr. Shonda.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yes, my sister. Like, we went to high school together, like, all of that. But, yeah, she was. She helped me prep for that interview because there was so many different things that you have to go through.

[Keir Gaines]

It's very nuanced.

[Lauren LaRosa]

It's very. It is. Right? But we were having a conversation about, like, there are studies about that EPPP test that it skews differently to black people that are trying to be licensed than others. And that's why some people don't go for certain licenses or whatever, which is a different conversation. Dr. Cheyenne Bryant. But she was talking about just how it's. The conversation we're having with Dr. Cheyenne Bryant takes away from the conversation we should be having about the real issues that some people have getting licensed. And I know you're licensed as a therapist, so I don't know if you have anything that you've experienced when you were going through your process.

[Keir Gaines]

Not anything to that extent, but licensure is incredibly challenging to get through. I don't think people understand how much schooling, how many. How many hours of practicum, and how many hours of internship you have to undergo. And then the test itself is difficult, and then the licensing board. And then you have to sit for a certain number of direct and indirect hours, which means a therapist who is more experienced than you sits in with you every week, and you talk about your sessions, what went well, what didn't go well. And it could be challenging for a number of reasons, because sometimes you can only, you know, you rise to the level of your help. If you don't have incredible supervision, it's gonna dictate how thorough and how effective you are as a therapist in the long run. Yeah, but even with Dr. Shonda, she's psychologist. Psychologist is different than a licensed therapist. Psychologist is a scientist. Licensed therapist is A practitioner. They're therapists who aren't psychologists, and they're psychologists who aren't therapists. It's incredibly nuanced and deep. So, yeah, I think this conversation is important that we're having about licensure and making sure that ethical guidelines are held intact. But there are so many other conversations that happen on the inside of the public doesn't even.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

As far. Like what?

[Keir Gaines]

Like how a lot of therapeutic modalities are not really normed on black people.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Talk about that a bit. Dr. Shonda talks about that. Talk about it.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, they're not normed on black people when a lot of modalities are steeped in psychology and they take a group of people who they study and the people who they study and weren't black. And there's this thing. Man. Man. There's this thing in therapy that happens when. When people don't have cultural competency.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right.

[Keir Gaines]

And that means, like, you can come into the room and you can see a black man, and then you can see, like, a South Pacific woman, and you say, oh, depression is depression. I'm gonna treat these people the same way. You might not honor the fact that where she's from, the hierarchy in the family looks different. So she may have a different reverence for her family. That might be. That might make it harder for her to say, nah, dad, nah, mom, I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna move in my own direction. Being culturally competent is treating her knowing. Having that in mind, knowing how her culture works and how it affects the way she moves through the world. You may see a black man and think, oh, you know, you're in therapy. I need you to talk about all your problems. Ignoring the fact that that black man has a lived experience where the medical system has not treated his ancestors very well. He walks in therapy skeptical, rightfully so. So cultural competency doesn't say, oh, man, you got these problems. You need to come into therapy and you need to talk to me because you need to be better. Cultural competency meets him where he is. Ah, I can see why you're skeptical. Let's take the first three sessions and get to know each other a little bit. Matter of fact, I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about myself. Because what we learned, what black therapists have learned, is we get taught. When you're in a session with somebody, you don't do no self disclosure. It's not about self disclosure. You're not supposed to talk about yourself, which is right to a degree. But when you in a room with black and brown people, especially black and brown men, you're going to expect him to give all that up and you don't say anything about yourself. That's not gonna work. The robotic cut off wall of a therapist is a motif that don't work for black men, don't work for black people. And if you don't have cultural competency, you would not know that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You know, it's so interesting. The first time I ever started doing therapy, I specifically said I didn't want somebody culturally competent. I wanted somebody that was, had no idea about our experiences, what we go through, what I may be going through, because I just wanted to tell them what I was dealing with. And I just wanted them to come from like a perspective of no bias, blank slate. Just a blank slate. Right. And so it's funny you said, what do you say? Stop pacific. Because I was looking for an Asian woman.

[Keir Gaines]

Specifically.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Specifically.

[Keir Gaines]

That's very specific. Why Asian woman?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Because I just was trying to find like somebody that I felt like didn't know our experience at all. In no way, shape or form didn't find one. I just want you to know that.

[Lauren LaRosa]

So where'd you end up? Like what type of.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I ended up with a, a white woman. And I was with her for a couple of years and she was good. But I did, I do feel like what really, really got me to that next level was a culturally competent black man.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. And it depends. A question that floats about a lot is do black people need black therapists? And I always say it depends. It's not so much about the lived experience of the therapist, it's about the aptitude of the therapist, number one, how comfortable you are with them. You know, the most effective therapist I ever had, she was a 65 year old white woman. We had nothing in common. Nothing in common. But the way that she moved in that space, it just so happened to bounce with the way that I understand, the way that I absorb information, the way that I take instruction. So for me, her, her race and her gender wasn't as important in order for me to feel comfortable. But that ain't everybody's story. And if you do need somebody that looks like you to be comfortable, then yeah, that's absolutely fine. It's more. So the effectiveness of the therapist is gonna be contingent probably a little bit more on what you find acceptable to share all your information with, where you feel nice and comfy in the session, versus some standard rule of law that just applies across the board.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

How'd you get here, black man. Like, how did you, you know, become the key air gangs that we know? Cause I remember you from. It was a video that went viral. I don't even know how I remember how long ago that was. And I think it was you and

[Keir Gaines]

your dad, me holding my baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I just thought it was just a powerful video of a black man, you know, expressing his love for his daughter, but also talking about the type of man and father and husband he wanted to be. It just touched me as a father and husband. But I didn't know you would actually become a licensed therapist. Were you always on that journey?

[Keir Gaines]

Was at the time. I'm trying to think. I started off as a family vlog on YouTube. So the video of Nobody knows it went crazy viral. But it's me walking in the street holding my baby. And at the time, we had just got monetized. I just proposed to my girl, and we put the engagement video up there on YouTube, and it was. It started doing numbers. So we got. We got a few little coins from that. We got monetized. We feeling good about ourselves. Not a lot of people was watching the vlog before that at all. Just our family members. And at the end of the vlog, I was doing the episode, I ain't want them to take my money, because I was at a cookout, and they was playing music. And if you play music on YouTube, they.

[Lauren LaRosa]

They take your money, they're gonna snatch a little money.

[Keir Gaines]

So I was like, all right, I' ma just go and walk and close out the vlog. And I took my baby with me. And it's just. I guess it was just a moment, a stream of consciousness. And basically, in the video, what I was saying is, I know y' all see me up here, and they got all the visuals. You see me with my girl and my baby, and we hugging and we loving each other, all that. But if you want a family, I suggest, bro, you go and see somebody about to things you've been through in your life, because if you don't, you will have all of this, and you'll never be happy. And the first time I posted it on Instagram, matter of fact, my wife shout out to my wife, Noemi. Man, I played it for her, and I said, babe, I think I'm talking too much. I'm a black man in America. I'm not used to anybody actually wanting to hear the way that I feel. So I was like, man, I'm rapping too much. Nobody care about this. She was like, babe, if you don't post that right now. So I posted it on Instagram. It did nothing. Nobody cared. And I reposted it a few months later with some music and subtitles. And that was right around the time George Floyd got killed. So I think the world was in a really unique place to hear and see black men in a different way. And I remember you reposted it. And when I saw you in person, I thanked you for that because you and Viola Davis, and it was a lot of y' all that really helped elevate that video. And then all the information came in and all the people came in, and we started getting all these offers for management. And I ended up starting my. I had started my counseling program around that time. So I was just in the first year, and I think it was all dawning on me. I also had just started therapy, and I was. I think I was in a good space to start telling people what I experienced.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What year was that?

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, damn. Don't give me the line. I know if my oldest was a. It was right. It was before the pandemic. Man, it had to be like, 20s. Yeah. 20, 18, 1918, probably. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And then after I got my licensure and everything, I started doing more mental health content.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What responsibility comes with speaking on trauma publicly when people may treat your words like clinical guidance?

[Keir Gaines]

Damn, that's a good question. It's a lot of responsibility. First off, you have to know what you're talking about. I think it's easy to just say trauma because it's a word that captures the awareness and imagination of people. And it's easy to make people feel victimized and talk about their lowest points and have them say, yes. Yes. I don't know how you do it long. Which fingers is it?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Middle finger.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay. I always do the point.

[Diana Maria Riva]

I get it wrong now.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Jace, this is a different. This a different type of person. This.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay. All right, so it's the middle joint. Like, they'll give you all of this, but you're not actually. Yeah, Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I be around the girls.

[Keir Gaines]

I'm a girl dad. So I'm around the worlds by default. So they'll give you all of that, but, like, how are you helping move people through it in terms of mental health and wellness? For so long, we've been stuck in this awareness posture. You gotta be aware. You gotta be aware. It's okay to not be okay. We've been there for a very long time, and I think it's time that we move from awareness. We Drive past that and move into actual action.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Me and my girl, Debbie Brown, talk about that.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

She loves you.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, I love her too, man. She, she speak life into me. Always made me feel all warm and fuzzy, man. Debbie know what to say, but I

[Charlamagne Tha God]

mean, that's because we, you know, we planning, you know, the Mental Wealth Expo this year and, you know, Debbie's leading all of that, and that's literally what the Mental Health Expo is going to be focused on. We passed awareness.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Talking about eradicating the stigma and everything.

[Keir Gaines]

We've done that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We gotta talk about straight solutions.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. What's next?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right.

[Keir Gaines]

We talked about the what. Now we're talking about the why and the how. And, and that is important. I said it on threads the other day. It's a difference between spinning your wheels and moving forward. The awareness conversation is spinning the wheels. The, the what to do next conversation is actually going to move us progressively forward.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, but the, the, the, the, you know, having a conversation about awareness is still important.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, it's very important. It's very important. But when you have the conversation about awareness to the elimination of having a conversation about what to do next, it does start to chip away at how important it is. It's always going to be paramount. But something has to come after that. You can't just sit and bask in the warmth of saying, yeah, this is what we need to know. Thank you, bro. This is what we need to know. This is what we need to be aware of. What does it materialize into?

[Lauren LaRosa]

You know, I think too, but for a lot of people, it's like, even if you know you need to do something, it's like figuring out who is the person. Like, where do you go? How do you even start? Like, I, I talk to people all the time about, like, even finding therapists. It's like you're trying people out. It's like random recommendations.

[Keir Gaines]

It's like dating.

[Lauren LaRosa]

It is, but it gets to a point sometimes where it shut up the conversation.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We just.

[Jared Onno]

Yeah.

[Lauren LaRosa]

No, no, no.

[Keir Gaines]

I ain't going dip in your business, Lauren. It's all right. I got you.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I am focused and I am we right here with it.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Lauren LaRosa]

The conversation about figuring out a therapist, it can be kind of not, not. It doesn't scare you, but it's just, it's such a task trying to find the right fit. That can definitely be intimidating sometimes, even though, you know you need to do it for sure and it. So it's not as easy for some People.

[Keir Gaines]

No. And I hate when we frame it as an easy thing to do. Just all you need to do is find the right therapist. It's just like dating. Finding a therapist is different than finding a doctor because I don't care about my doctor's bedside manner. Sometimes, if you're an effective doctor that can spot something that I need to see, you giving me all my panels and all my results, you know, I will take how good you are at what I need you to do above your bedside manner, your attitude. It don't work like that with therapists. If you throw me off with your attitude, it ain't gonna work. If you say the wrong thing at the wrong time, it ain't gonna work. And from this angle, which I completely understand and endorse, I fired many a therapist before because it just. It wasn't a good fit. It didn't feel right. But as a therapist, you have a very small margin of error sometimes. And if you don't, sometimes I can't treat you until I know who you are. I take the first couple sessions just getting to know you. Who your mama, how she treats you. What did love look like in your house? What are your relations like? Yeah, the romantic ones. Okay, now the non romantic ones. Who are your friends? How do you contextualize and view friendship? How do you see the world? Have you been victimized? How do you see being a victim? Is this something that happened to you? Or is it something that you use and wear as a badge of honor? Or is it something in the middle? How can I do anything for you if I don't know you? And that's why we really started a podcast, learn the hard way. Because talking to a therapist is hard. I'll admit it. I'll admit it. Even as a therapist, talking to a therapist can be hard and intimidating, but listening to a conversation on a podcast is not. And while I'm not your therapist, I can stand in the gap. I'm a therapist. I can still give you things to think about, still help widen your aperture on how you see yourself and how you see your place in the world. And just give you something to chew on that's not just going to make you a different person, but try to make you a better person.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I want to ask you because I love what you said about, you know, finding a therapist is like dating, right?

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I'm not going to talk about the conversation I just heard in the room,

[Keir Gaines]

but if you want to talk about

[Charlamagne Tha God]

it real bad, if you had three

[Keir Gaines]

and four therapists, three and Four therapists in the past?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes.

[Lauren LaRosa]

You trying them all out?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Can you see 3 and 4 at one time? And should you label them, like, main eater, husband? You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?

[Keir Gaines]

Main eater is egregious. Egregious. That's what I was like.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I'll put this in more therapeutic terms.

[Keir Gaines]

Lauren, wait. Okay, we're moving on. Okay. Okay.

[Lauren LaRosa]

When you were figuring out your therapist, right, and you had, like, multiple. Were you going to multiple at a time or one at a time? Because you had to. It was. You got to pay for all of this.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You said it treated like dating.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Be quiet.

[Keir Gaines]

So treat it like dating. To an extent, depending on how you date. I would say it was one at a time just because I wanted to give them all a fair shot to see how they would work for me.

[Lauren LaRosa]

But you were seeking your therapist intentionally. You weren't just going through a bunch of therapists because somebody told you it's the thing to do.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay, what conversation are we having right now?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, shut up, Charlotte.

[Keir Gaines]

What are we talking about?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I ain't saying.

[Keir Gaines]

No, I wasn't running through therapist.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

He wasn't handing therapist out, okay?

[Keir Gaines]

Nah, nah, nah. I wasn't running through therapists with reckless abandon. Um, I was.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Cause how did you know that? Like, if a therapist did something that turned you off, did you, like, be like, yo, I'm out?

[Keir Gaines]

So before I was a therapist, yes, I would ghost therapist all the time. Because it's uncomfortable to tell someone. There's a power dynamic that exists in the room when you're a therapist, and it's uncomfortable to tell somebody, like, hey, I don't like the way you're doing this. Can we change it? People don't even do that with their partner sometimes, you know? So before I was a therapist, yeah, I probably just ghost them. A lot of therapists I had, they get weird when they know I'm a therapist or I'm a person. On social media, a lot of therapists get weird with black men. And I know that's not. It's not super in style and vogue to say, but it's true. You know, they have a very. From my experience, have a very low perception of black men. So when I walk in and, you know, I'm married and I got a career, and I got my kids going and everything, and they like, we so proud of you, black man. I'm like, hey, stop clapping for me and listen to me. I still need help. You're not listening. So there was that piece, but now That I am a therapist. I will stop them and say, hey, I don't feel like this is as effective as I need it to be. Can we talk about it? Cause even my clients, we have sessions where we talk about our relationship. Check in. What are we, you know, what we doing right now, y'? All.

[Lauren LaRosa]

It really is like dating.

[Keir Gaines]

It's very much like. It's such a personal relationship. Cause I know all your business, and I hold it right here. It doesn't leave anywhere. I know your mama. I know your relationship with your mama. I know why you do the things you do. There are things you told me that you have never even said out loud by yourself. So we take those things, and we don't judge you about them. Not at all. We don't judge you about them.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's why I don't think you should have multiple at one time. You know, it's funny.

[Keir Gaines]

It depends. It depends on what kind of therapist it is.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Cause it also depends on where you are in your life, too. Like, what you're dealing with, with life.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Cause you're sharing so much of yourself.

[Keir Gaines]

Well, with some people, that's not an issue. I would say this. I have two types of therapists. So I have a talk therapist, and I have a semantic therapist. And my somatic therapist is more so about movement in the body and where you hold your trauma in your body. She told me something dope. She says, yeah. She said, because I lost my mom when I was 18.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I'm sorry.

[Keir Gaines]

And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And sometimes there's an absence that I feel that I can't put my finger on. And she says, where do you feel your pain in your body? And I said, I feel it in my chest. And she says, whenever you feel it, gently rub your chest. Cause that's a part of your body that's longing for gentle touch that it won't get anywhere else. I was like, damn, you good.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I didn't even know that that was a type of therapy.

[Keir Gaines]

Like, oh, yeah. Not everything can be solved with talk therapy. You gotta hit that problem from all angles sometimes.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I'm gonna be honest. And, I mean, you've been lying the whole time. No, I haven't. I'm about to say something that's, like, very honest is what I'm saying. I have been lying the whole time.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay, let's go.

[Lauren LaRosa]

So, like, I have therapist friends, like Shonda. Dr. Shonda. Right. Patient Dr. Shonda. But because she's my friend, I don't really. Like, there's kind of like a boundary separation, but we still talk through things like boundary.

[Keir Gaines]

Like she's not trying to over therapize you.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yes. Like she can't because like she's known me for almost like my whole life. But like sitting and really having this conversation with you and knowing her and knowing that she's an influencer in the space. You're an influencer in the space. It kind of makes me sad for y' all a little bit because there's so many other people that are in this space that with platforms that they're not giving it up. Like y' all giving it up and people really need this stuff. Like I'm sitting here and I'm like, I didn't even know that that was a thing. And you've probably talked about this online TikTok somewhere. But like we get clouded with so much other stuff that we click because of what the algorithm is or how many views or whatever and it's pushed to you. It has to be tough in that space for y'. All, like because I'm sitting here like, dang. I feel bad that y' all got so much noise because people need to hear this stuff.

[Keir Gaines]

They do. And it's hard to get this out in short form content. A lot of therapists been getting smoked lately online because they're attempting to unpack very complicated topics and short form content. Short form content is meant to be punchy and even I've been man, I post a lot of my videos are just me in the kitchen talking about concepts that people thought about but maybe have not been able to put words to. And long form content has really helped me. Like the pod. I just wrote my debut book. It all starts when you do. And the book is a collection of all these things I do in therapy and all these ways I move people toward healing and I can't express that in short form. It's just not, not enough time. There's not enough bandwidth online for people to sit for me to unpack something that's going to take four minutes. And if I take a four minute explanation and I distill it down into 25 seconds, I'm going to lose a lot of the context. It's not going to be as helpful, it's not going to be as useful of a tool for you to wield around. So yeah, I mean you right. But everybody don't do it the same way.

[Lauren LaRosa]

But how do you protect. And this is not a shot at Dr. Shy and Brian, but I've been seeing a lot of people Black therapists talk about the danger in the way that we're having a conversation because of some of the pushback she's getting. How do you protect the people you love, like us, your community, from those dangers that people are pointing at? If that's not possible, when they say

[Keir Gaines]

dangerous, what do they mean specifically?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I swear to God, I was gonna ask that same question. I want to know exactly what the danger is that people think. Dr. Cheyenne Bryant.

[Lauren LaRosa]

So here's what I see people pointing out. This is not my own personal thoughts or feelings. So I see people pointing out the fact that it's dangerous. When she talks about licensing and being able to practice without being licensed because of the ethics thing, the whole conversation about the amount of schooling that she has or does not have, the. Even the dissertation conversation, I'm thinking, okay, people just want to see that because it's proof of something. And then I saw a breakdown of a woman who's like, no, because of the hours of research and whatever. Whatever it goes into here is what she can lean on when her own personal experience comes into play. But also, just when it comes to her being therapist or psychiatrist, there's a difference that people are now confusing because they are alleging that she was going by one title and then changed that. Those are all the things that I'm seeing people point out.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What long question LaRosa is trying to say is, can somebody give genuinely helpful, emotional advice without being licensed? Or does lack of licensing automatically create danger?

[Keir Gaines]

I think anybody can talk about their own experiences. I think anybody can talk about their own trauma. I think that you can preach from the lens of what you know and what you've experienced. Now, when you begin to give information, advice to people, and people are beginning to take that advice, apply it to their own lives, and start to move throughout their communities and families, there is a duty to, one, know what you're talking about, and two, represent yourself appropriately. When before I had my full licensure, I had my provisional, and when you got your provisional, it just means that you can't practice by yourself. You got to have a big therapist look over everything you do. Sometimes sit in your sessions, and you gotta tell people in the beginning of the session, like, hey, I have a provisional license and I'm under the supervision of Dr. Whoever. Just to let you know.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That happens in the hospital sometimes.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, they have to let you know. You have to represent yourself appropriately. So I think the danger comes in where people. One, misrepresenting themselves, not saying, that's what she's doing. I Think the story is just starting. I think this is about to be. More will un be uncovered as time goes on. But I think you have a duty to one, represent yourself appropriately and two, like, speak to what you know about. There's sometimes people come in my sessions and they have specific conditions or experiences. It's not in my therapeutic wheelhouse. I don't know about that, but I know a good therapist that does and I'll refer you out.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Oh, so you turn them away.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, well, it's not turning them away. It's referring them to a therapist that can better help them. Yeah, if you go to a oncologist who's a cancer doctor and you asking about the bone spurs in your feet, he gonna look at you like, hey, I don't know a lot about that. That's not within my professional realm of expertise. Let me send you to somebody who is more knowledgeable about that thing.

[Lauren LaRosa]

So is there a in your world, Right. A therapist and psychologist. Are we not happy then that to a certain extent that Dr. Cheyenne is having these conversations? Because it's making everybody learn within it. So why are people so upset?

[Keir Gaines]

I think there's a Val.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on Humor Me with rock Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group.

[Keir Gaines]

The worst.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation?

[Timbo]

The Yardbirds, right? That's the name.

[Robert Smigel]

The Harvard Yard.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They're open.

[Keir Gaines]

Do you have a name suggestion?

[Timbo]

We're open.

[Robert Smigel]

Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Keir Gaines]

Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

[Timbo]

Last night a blown call changed a game. This morning the Internet lost its mind, highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source. The athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the Moments that never make the highlight reactions. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports slice on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slice Life 12 and the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

[Jared Onno]

Hey, I'm Jared Onno. You might know me as that loud guy who yells out help. On the Internet.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Help.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Somebody please.

[Jared Onno]

But there's so much more to me than that. I'm an actor, I'm a comedian, and recently I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, Hope From a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions.

[Keir Gaines]

Psych.

[Jared Onno]

I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff rant and recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to man. If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone, let it ring twice. One ring is too scary.

[Keir Gaines]

Cream of Chicken Soup Hey Cream. Cream of chicken soup.

[Jared Onno]

This is Help from a Hypocrite. The worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Kultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren LaRosa]

The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection.

[Sanjanah Bhasker]

This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discovery and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected, we're becoming more individualized. But we actually need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or

[Lauren LaRosa]

wherever you get your podcast Value in

[Keir Gaines]

learning about a process. I think that people who are licensed are upset because being a therapist is already tough and it's already it's a field that's very much guided. I know I keep saying ethics, but it's guided by very strict ethics of what you can and can't do, what you got the duty to report. Like, they can call you up to court and take all of your notes, and it can be used as evidence against somebody or evidence for somebody. So it's really important that you maintain the fidelity of the field. And I think when the fidelity of the field appears to be compromised, people speak out like black folk are a really vulnerable population, especially right now. And if you are, again, not saying this is what she's doing, but if you are a person who appears to be practicing and maybe not being consistent, completely clear about how it is you came about, your licenses or how you came about, however you. You know, you signify yourself, whether it be doctor, whether you be a psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever, there's a danger in giving people misinformation or you can cause harm within a session. It's so easy. Imagine a woman who is postpartum, and instead of knowing how to treat a woman who is postpartum and knowing how she identifies racially, ethnically, religiously, and how those things tie back into who she is and what her family structure looks like, and you having the outermost shell of good training to know how to handle that situation, you could tell her something that could be harmful, especially if you're coming from your own experience, which is different than hers. Now, you're not just guiding somebody through a therapeutic journey. You're projecting.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

At what point does, I guess, inspirational content become unethical if audiences mistake it for therapy?

[Keir Gaines]

I think when you don't make it clear that it's not therapy. And my podcast, in the very beginning, I said, hey, y', all, I'm a therapist, but I'm not your therapist. We cool. And I love being here for y', all, and I'll stand in the gap seven days a week. But I'm not your therapist. And if you are having trouble with these things, you need to seek the help of a licensed and qualified professional. You know, when you start telling people what to do and they start taking your advice, I think you take on some responsibility for what you say. And we live in an attention economy. It's like, hey, look at me. I'm gonna say the most outrageous thing or the thing that feels most resonant in order for people to come in and vibrate with me. Hey, come look at me. Hey, you know, be a part of my audience. I don't know what that culminates into, but I think it validates a lot of People's humanity to be able to have folks comment and respond and, you know, give them these joints. Damn. Lauren, one more time. Middle finger. All right. Give them these. It feels good, but it's not necessarily helpful to folks.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You know what scares me? Therapists creating content. Cause I don't want to say becoming creators, because I don't think that they're becoming creators. I think they're creating content because they're intentionally trying to help people. But I think some therapists unintentionally become emotionally dependent on their audience.

[Keir Gaines]

I can see how that can happen. I mean, therapists, I tell people all the time, bro, it's just the job. It is just the job that I'm qualified to do. It's no different than any job. And being a therapist and having all this therapeutic knowledge, and we talk about this on the pod, it does not exonerate me from the human experience. I got a wife and two kids. You don't think I get mad at my kids? You don't think I worry? You know, you don't think I got money concerns? I mean, Charlamagne doesn't have money concerns,

[Charlamagne Tha God]

but you don't think it's crazy?

[Keir Gaines]

Don't. Charlemagne. We don't have to do this. I ain't gonna look at you. Yeah, I' ma just. I'm gonna just maintain eye contact with Lord.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That was like, my wallet gonna start

[Keir Gaines]

itching if I look that way.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Like, halfway through the year. Imagine what the rest of his year look like.

[Keir Gaines]

I'm sure God is good. Yeah. I'm happy for you, brother. Legitimately. But even. Even there, like, no matter what your financial situation is, it doesn't mean that you don't have the right to be upset or dissatisfied with parts of your life. You can still have a bad day being a billionaire like you are, you know, hey, hey, we ain't gott.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's too much.

[Keir Gaines]

He almost there. But, yeah, I still feel the full range of human emotions and still have to navigate it. So, yeah, therapists are just people and creators no different than anyone else. Or therapists who are creators are no different than anyone else. I want to feel good. I want to feel validated. I want to feel like people think I'm smart and capable. I just think the way you go about that needs to be very intentional so that you don't make a fool of yourself.

[Lauren LaRosa]

What's wrong. What's wrong with therapists that, like, why people upset? When therapists are honest about the fact that, like, they also want to make money, like, they Want to be able to sell a book. They want to be able to make money off engagement or, you know, like, why do people get upset when you say that?

[Keir Gaines]

I think it's. Ooh, I don't know. I was about to say.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Even the insurance conversation, another Dr. Cheyenne Bryant conversation that was sparked. That's why. I don't know. Whatever.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Insurance conversation. I don't know.

[Lauren LaRosa]

The insurance conversation is like Dr. Cheyenne Bryant was saying that she was. She didn't do certain licensing because of the certain bit the way you have to build things and you have to diagnose people. But I've been seeing therapists have conversations about you can still bill with prior to getting a license or something like. Can you clarify that?

[Keir Gaines]

I don't know what she said directly, but in terms of billing to insurance, no, I don't. What did she say? It was something about billing and licensure.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah. So she was basically saying. Because they're talking about the. The fact that she isn't licensed. And she was saying that there are certain things you have to do when you are licensed. Like you. The way that your billing works and like the payouts, which I've heard from other. Other people.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah.

[Lauren LaRosa]

And she was talking about how on the Joe Budden podcast, she said you have to diagnose people within a certain amount of time with certain things based on. To keep up, like license and be able to build something somewhere. I'm probably saying that wrong, but it was something about diagnosing as well.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I think I have the quote, if y' all want me to say it.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Thank you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay. Dr. Turner recently addressed her licensing and billing practices, causing significant debate online. In a bio video, she stated that she no longer practices under a license, opting instead to work in private practice with clients paying out of pocket. She stated that a license is primarily necessary only for billing insurance. She suggested that many clients prefer to pay out of pocket to avoid having a formal diagnosis on their record. A requirement for insurance billing.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know that to be true.

[Lauren LaRosa]

But if. If that is true for her, why are people upset about that? Like, if she's saying, I don't want to have to diagnose you, and I. I don't think.

[Keir Gaines]

It's not necessarily. It's not true for her. I'll say this. And, you know, listen, I got. I got too much business to be. To be worried about anybody else's. But I do want to. I do want to clarify. I don't think that it's just not true. For her, I think that's just not. That's not the way the practice goes, that's not the way insurance and billing goes. And I think it's more so wanting to clarify the way that it works so that when people are out here seeking therapy, they're doing so with knowledge of who's safe to be around and who's not. I think the bigger issue is, and I can't speak for all therapists, but I can speak for myself. When people sit in a room with me sometimes, we're undoing the work of people who they saw who they thought were qualified and competent, who were not. And man, you think, and let's take it back to dating. You know how you could sit across the table from somebody you like and you want to love this person, you want to love them so bad, but the person that they were with before you did so much to them that it changed who they are and now they're skeptical about the relationship. Therapy is the same way. But it's not just one therapist that they might have seen before. It was a person before that and a person before that. And you're in the session not just, just helping them build you trying to help folk get back to zero. And nobody is in this profession for the money. The money ain't that good. The money is not that good for you to be in it for the money. We in it for the people. We in it to help people heal. So when your job and your central focus is to help people heal, but you gotta spend four months walking back to work of other people, I think that bothers a lot of clinicians and I think misrepresentation of the field bothers a lot of clinicians. But no, that's not the way I understand it to work at all.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What's the healthiest way for audiences to consume self help content without replacing actual therapy or accountability or just the real life work you gotta do?

[Keir Gaines]

I think understanding the difference between something that's therapy and something that's therapeutic.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Ooh, I like that. Yeah, a lot of this stuff on social media is therapeutic.

[Keir Gaines]

It can be therapeutic.

[Lauren LaRosa]

That music under.

[Keir Gaines]

But it's all the sense of music. And you get, y' all know the music because it's meant to strike an emotional nerve. And I know we're human beings, but we're human feelings. We feel everything. Our political decisions, our relational decisions are a lot of times based on emotion. That's, that's what separates us from a lot of other animals. So, yeah, I think it's understanding the difference between something that's therapy and something that's therapeutic. Going to the gym is amazing. You hear brother say this all the time, man. Hey, the gym is my therapy. No, no, no, the gym is therapeutic. The gym is not therapy, man. Music is my therapy. No, no, no. Music is therapeutic. It's not therapy. Therapeutic is something that helps you feel better. It helps you cope, it helps you maybe modulate some of the things that are going on on the inside. Probably helps you put some words, the feelings. Some people have a hard time accessing tears. So you listen to a sad song and it allows you to cry. That's very therapeutic. Therapy is a guided specific journey with a qualified professional. It's not just one singular thing you do. I always tell my clients the way it works is. And we talk about this on the pod and I talk about it in my book too. You go out into the world and you deal with things and then you come back and we talk about it and then we okay, well that didn't work. So let's fix this and tweak this. What did you say when they said that? Okay, well what did you take away from that conversation? All right, let's tweak this. This, let's tweak that. Let's tweak this. Let's tweak this. I go back out in the world and see how it works. You go back in the world and you try and then you come back. That didn't work. Okay, what did work that were, okay, let's take this away and replace it with that. And we constantly, like Cat Williams said, you're trying and trying and it don't work. And you trying and trying shit and it don't work. You trying shit, trying shit and you don't work it. Therapy is in the session is not where the real work is done. That's where the tune up happens in the real world is when the work is done. When those things that stress you out and make you want to lash out and make you feel insecure, when they test you at your deepest level, that's where the work is done. When you choose to move differently, when you choose to respond differently, when you choose to ignore things, when you choose to lean into a new relationship, when you can better decipher what feels good but it's not helpful versus what's helpful but don't necessarily feel good. And you can lean into the thing that's more oriented to your long term self sustainability than the thing that gives you the warm and fuzzies. But it's going to leave you high and dry the end of the day. So that's. That's how therapy works. But therapy is tough because you don't get to see it happen. We got shows now, like couples counseling or couples therapy with a woman. I think her name is Lorna. I can't remember. Yes, Very nice lady. You know, she sits with couples and they go through a season. I think she's really good at what she does. She don't do therapy like I do therapy. My therapy sessions sound like this. It's a conversation. I dress just like this. Yeah, I dress like this. I'm gonna show up to the session my whole self, and I'm invite you to do the same.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's what my guy Elliot Connie does. You know? You know Elliot Connie?

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, Elliot speaks, right?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, Elliot speaks.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, he's dope, man. He's incredible. He's incredible.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, I love Elliot because he focuses on solution, focused therapy.

[Keir Gaines]

He's a clinician's clinician, man. I look to him. I look up to him, like him and Dr. Raquel Martin. And these are clinicians. Clinicians. These are the people your therapists come looking for to get inspiration and guidance. Yeah, yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You said something earlier, man, that I. I've been saying just about topics in general. I feel like social media isn't the place to have these nuanced conversations. As much as people want social media to be, you know, this. This. This town square where we can all discuss these complex issues, we can't. Things are not black and white. They're not just simply right and wrong. Like, there's a lot of nuance to it. That's why I think things like podcasts are important. That's why I think things like books are important. Do you feel like, like, people in the mental health space may be doing themselves a disservice by trying to take this content and just throw it out in a minute or two?

[Lauren LaRosa]

That's what I was saying earlier about saying, I feel bad for y'. All.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I don't even like calling it content.

[Keir Gaines]

I mean, I guess. But it is content. I think it works when it works and it doesn't. When it doesn't. How else will people get it? Yeah, you know, therapy is. Or just the mental health field does a really good job of talking about the issue, but sometimes we could talk over people's heads. We can start saying, oh, you have an access to diagnosis with the group B and the marginal propensity and the code. It's.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's gonna Get a shot.

[Keir Gaines]

Now, see, all I heard was plan B. I gotta go get a shot. It's crazy.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Of course you did.

[Keir Gaines]

You said something about plan B. Now I missed that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

She definitely did.

[Lauren LaRosa]

She said you said what you say.

[Keir Gaines]

What'd you say?

[Lauren LaRosa]

You said something about access. Plan B.

[Keir Gaines]

Group access. B Access. No, I said access. I said access to group B. Oh, I told you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I told you the other day.

[Keir Gaines]

We not judging.

[Lauren LaRosa]

You not supposed to say that.

[Keir Gaines]

We not judging. We're not judging.

[Lauren LaRosa]

You don't gotta judge me. I'm good over here.

[Keir Gaines]

I'm not judging anyone. That's not what I heard what I thought I heard. Nah, that's not what I said. Nah. But it's.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That was God reminding her.

[Keir Gaines]

Hey, it's therapist.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What happened last night? Make sure you.

[Lauren LaRosa]

What?

[Keir Gaines]

I don't know.

[Lauren LaRosa]

He is.

[Keir Gaines]

I just got.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I would apologize for him, but I think, you know, he's ridiculous all the time in real life.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But continue.

[Keir Gaines]

I don't remember what I was talking about.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Oh, therapist talking over people's heads.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, yeah, we have. We can have a tendency to talk over people's heads, but the short form content makes things more relatable. But when it misses, it misses, you know?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Keir Gaines]

So I think it's worth it to have it out there. I just hope that people move with more intentionality when we're talking about it. And a lot of it may bore you to death. I can look through the DSM 5 and tell you the 9 to 12 criteria pieces that I look for when I'm diagnosing somebody with depression. People don't care. We do not care. I don't feel good. I want to feel better. Give me, Give me short, snackable, bite sized pieces. So, you know, I prefer people get it than not get it. But there's no way to ensure that it hits the way it's supposed to. I just so happen to be a content creator who's licensed to practice clinical mental health counseling. So I can't. I can't hit it in a certain spot. I can hit a sweet spot where I can give you the general idea and even the approach of it. I think that if you approach it like a therapist or traditional therapist because we've changed a lot in the last 10 years. Therapists aren't. Not Frazier Crane with the elbow patches and tell me how that makes you feel. We don't really do all that no more. You know what I'm saying? We wearing phone calls and Nike joggers and, and, and we come in as our Full selves now. But the way I frame the POD is I'm, I'm not like your therapist, man. I'm more like your favorite cousin that's pulling up the grandma house with the good liquor, you know what I'm saying? But I also, yeah, I seen some things that we're gonna talk about some stuff. But I'm also trained to help people move through life in a healthy, productive and well regulated manner. And I think it's that personable, that eye level approach, especially with black men. Not hyper pathologizing you, not problematizing everything that you have going on, but just seeing you where you are, like, okay, I get down here with you. What's up? We in a boat together.

[Lauren LaRosa]

What did you think I was gonna say? You know, you probably know cause you're a black man. But it's a lot of us that are women, black women that are raised not to see black men as just people. And I don't even think our moms mean to do comes from something that they were given as well too. But you don't realize it until you're like grown. And by that point you done probably made somebody feel so little and so low.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. And I think the distinct challenges that black men are dealing with publicly don't help separate the humanizing part from the actual person, you know. But yeah, I don't think, and I don't think a lot of black men are raised to see themselves as human. I think a lot of black men deeply find themselves disposable. And I think society reinforces that all the time. You know, it's not just a problem that black men have, but with black men, I find that every area of your life, every stage of your maturation is designed to separate you from your emotional reality. You know, when you a little teeny baby and you cry and your mom wants to pick up and hold a coddle. Now don't pick up and hold. Coddle that boy. You gonna make him soft. You know, when you a preschooler and you fall off of your bike, man, don't cry. It's just a bruised knee. You be all right. Get back up and keep riding. If you a teenager and and you go through a crazy heartbreak, man, what you crying for, man? Girls like buses. Mix one next 15, one coming. You be all right. Wipe your tears. You become an adult man and your girlfriend says something dangerous or inflammatory or something that was insensitive and you get upset. Oh, what you mad now? You in your feelings? What you sassy? Who gonna be the men who gonna be the boys? The boys want to be the girls. Now, every turning point of your life is designed specifically to separate you from your emotions. And we get a lot of practice being separated from our emotions. And I don't know about y', all, but when I go to a football field, I see the wide receivers on the jug machine. They boom, boom, boom. They catching passes. You see the quarterbacks, you see them throwing, throwing motions. In basketball, you see dudes putting up shots.

[Timbo]

Why?

[Keir Gaines]

Because you become good at the things you practice. And we get a lot of practice separating ourselves from our emotions or being separated from our emotions. And then we become husbands, we become fathers, we become fully formed adults. And there's this idea that we're supposed to put it right back all together instantaneously. Like, that train ain't been traveling on the track at 100 miles per hour for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. When you hit the brakes on that train, it's not just gonna stop. That joint gonna slide for a very long time. So it's like this mix of holding space for grace for men in that regard, but also holding men accountable.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, but that's the. The middle point is not always the easiest to find.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I do. I like what you said about how we problematize things. Right. Because I feel like that's what happens on social media to black men.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, absolutely.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Black men can't be the problem for every single issue that's going on in the world. And I feel like a lot of times that happens, especially, you know, from my sister. That's why sometimes I be telling folks, yo, get off social media.

[Keir Gaines]

Get off social media.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's not the real world. Go interact with some black women in your life. For real. They don't feel this way. Like you said something, when you. When you say you sit down with somebody sometime and you know that automatically you're dealing with. With whoever they dealt with in the past. That's how I feel like a lot of these people on social media treat all black men. Don't point, don't project on me what somebody did to you.

[Keir Gaines]

But that's what the Internet is designed for. And if you have. The Internet is full of zero star experiences, man. If you ever go, you know what I'm saying? It's all the people who got zero stars are the loudest about it. If you have a five star experience, you ain't gonna say nothing. The food's delicious. I'm going back. Next time you on about your life, let the food have a roach in it. You on yoke with your fingers burning. It's. It's a very loud shared voice.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Nobody ever goes on social media to talk about what's good.

[Keir Gaines]

No, no. And the people, healthy relationships don't talk on social media.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right. Yeah.

[Keir Gaines]

I'm not going to infiltrate my relationship with nonsense. People always tell me and my wife, y' all put all your business out. You know what?

[Lauren LaRosa]

I used to always, like, when I was. I was just re. Watching your video on Feeling disconnected.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren LaRosa]

And I was like, I just wonder how. Because y' all seem like very well balanced people in real life. How do y' all get online and then want to talk about it too? Because it disrupts a little bit. Like, if you allow it, it's just the option to disrupt, is there?

[Keir Gaines]

It's like, why if you allow us doing all the heavy lifting in that sentence. You just said we don't allow it. My wife and I are super solid. We super secure in our relationship. And this is the thing, man. We know we're not the only ones dealing with this. People be lying about relationships and parenthood. People be lying and they're not honest about what's going on in their relationship and not saying that they got the duty to be. Because we talk about relationships on the pod all the time. Partnership is a. Is a huge part of what I talk about, especially from a male perspective. But it's. I'm not telling you anything. I wouldn't tell you in person. What we. We see things differently. Oh, don't talk about that. This man and his wife don't see everything eye to eye. It's not so much about the differences that we focused on. I think we really like to talk about how we navigate through it, you know, and navigate through it safely and leave them with more than just hurt feelings.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

One thing I love that you talk about is something that we don't talk about enough as black men is that father wound, man.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, man.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I saw you. You. You posted a caption with me in a video with your daughter, and you said, becoming the father I deserve. I hear you speak about that a lot. Can you talk about that father wound that men don't address often?

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, man. You know, I think men are. Men have this mentality sometimes where we believe that our job is to endure hardships like a good soldier. You white knuckle through life and you don't complain about it. Even when you. With the homies, you know, you can talk about your difficulties once or twice, but when you get to. When you get to complaining a little bit too much. It's like, all right, bro, you need to, you know, cry me a river. Build a bridge and get over it. With the father wound is really specific. And my mentor, Jason Wilson talks about this a lot.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Love. Jesus, Jason, man.

[Keir Gaines]

That's my dog. That's my dog. He's. He's such an incredible dude, man. I'd be on the phone with him for two hours at a time just talking life. But we talk about these wounds in parenthood and with the father wound, that hurts the most, because that was supposed to be your model on your road map. And I think we see a father wound as a man that was completely absent. Like your father wasn't there. Like traditional athlete story, you know what I'm saying? He went out for milk and he never came back. But also, there are a lot of men, especially like in Afro Caribbean households and West African households. And it's not just Jermaine, the black people, white people go through this all the time, where there was a man in the house, but he wasn't really emotionally available. We got all this language now, but it wasn't like this in the 80s or the 90s or the 70s or the 60s or the 50s, when both we and our parents were coming up into our maturation. So it's a longing not only to have the love that you think that you needed. Not love, love that you definitely needed and like that hand over hand guidance and that warmth that you needed from your father. Because warmth is not the opposite of strength. It's not the opposite of strength. And I think maybe a lot of our fathers maybe have felt that or maybe thought that, but not only that, but now it's requisite. It's required of you to demonstrate that warmth in a world where that was never associated with masculine masculinity before. So now not only are you flying the plane while you building the joint, you trying to figure out coordinates to a place you've never been.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Keir Gaines]

And you ain't got no landing gear. And they shooting at the plane on social media, they shooting at the plane in public. All of that, man. So it just, it becomes a lot. And I think it's hard to have that conversation in public because of things like patriarchy. And whenever, if. If you're a man, you're like, yeah, my father won't, you know, never. I never learned how to be these things. It's like, well, boohoo. You know, men have all the power in society. You need to learn how to deal with it. And it's like, I feel you. But it don't work that way. You're still an individual that needs some tutelage, that needs some warmth, needs some love. But after you turn a certain age as a man, nobody holds you anymore. We did an event when I was just talking to a group of men. I said, when the last time you've been held. Could nobody answer that? After you assume a man's body, don't nobody hold you no more. Nobody holds you in their arm and just tells you it's gonna be okay. It doesn't work that way. So.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And that's what you want your. You want your woman to be that. You want your wife to be that.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah.

[Keir Gaines]

But it can't be a hyper dependence on her to be that for you. You need to diversify. It's very important for men to do this. And I talk about this in the pod and in my book. You have to diversify where you get your needs met, or else you end up leaning on one person a little bit too hard for everybody, everything. And you burn them out. Your wife's not your mom, man. She's your wife.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Don't talk to me like that.

[Keir Gaines]

Oh, I wasn't. What, you feeling guilty?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yes. Cause his wife is superwoman.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Nah, I'm a cancer. I know I'm needy. You know what I'm saying? I need. I am very hyper dependent.

[Keir Gaines]

I don't know anything about Zodiac. What's. I'm a Pisces. What that mean? What I do?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Oh, Lord. When's your birthday?

[Keir Gaines]

March 15th. My Jupiter. Somebody told me my Jupiter was in micro braids.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I know. February, male. Pisces. Pisces are horrible. Okay, well, we can do a poll around all the women in the room if you want, but most people I know that encounter male. They just haven't gotten to the emotional maturity point that they need to be at before they start encountering somebody's daughter.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You wanna know your traits?

[Keir Gaines]

Shout out to. Being born late February, apparently.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Pisces traits.

[Keir Gaines]

The death sentence.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Compassionate.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Highly intuitive.

[Keir Gaines]

Okay.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Artistic and gentle. They are considered wise, but often struggle with escaping reality, being overly sensitive and setting boundaries. They are deeply emotional and selfless, frequently prioritizing others needs. That sounds like you to me.

[Keir Gaines]

I'm an only child. On my mama's side at least. So I'm very selfish. But tell them people, stay out of my business, man. Who wrote that?

[Lauren LaRosa]

Not who wrote that.

[Keir Gaines]

Who wrote that?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I do. What does healthy dependency look like?

[Keir Gaines]

In what regard?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

In regards to when you need to

[Lauren LaRosa]

be Held in a relationship, I don't

[Charlamagne Tha God]

know, just in general. And not just even a romantic relationship, just in general.

[Keir Gaines]

I don't know if I would classify that as dependency necessarily. But healthy dependency looks like needing things from a person that doesn't exhaust their bandwidth and not mistaking the things that you should be doing for yourself with things that someone else should be doing for you. So it's like the person you're with accentuates what it is you, you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish. They don't supplant it. You know, I always say if you don't have boundaries, like a person who

[Lauren LaRosa]

has

[Keir Gaines]

maybe unhealthy boundary setting challenges versus a person who had who's unable to say no. It's like an endless faucet pointed to a bucket that doesn't know that it's endless. That fossil is gonna keep pouring. It's not gonna say, oh, bucket, you've had enough, Let me stop. Nah, that faucet's just gonna keep running. It's incumbent on the bucket to say, hey, I've reached capacity. I need you to stop pouring into me. And then the bucket needs to move 3 inches to the right so that water doesn't keep pouring. But it's hard to do when you have father wounds, when you have been mistreated as a child. We call it ACEs. Adverse Childhood Experiences. Well, that's the Adverse Childhood Experience scale. But the things you went through in the younger parts of your of your lifetime, that really formulated the way that you need love, the way that you see love. And if there's a big gap right there, you could try to feel it. It needs to be filled with like warm soup. But you'll take anything. It could be cement, it could be dirt. You'll just take what it is. It won't fit, it won't feel good. But your mind doesn't always catch on to the fact that it doesn't fit and it doesn't feel good. Because when you have a deficit somewhere, sometimes something's better than nothing. If you've been starving for 10 years and I slide over a bag of pretzels, you gonna dog that joint like it's a bone in rib eye, you know? And I think desperation and a large hunger for need, it builds an environment where you'll take things that aren't necessarily good for you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I'm about to do something that I want all of y' all to do. I want you to go to wherever you subscribe to podcast and subscribe subscribe to Kear Gaines Learned the hard way.

[Keir Gaines]

Learn the hard way. We would love to have you. We just had Ryan Clark on.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, that was a really good episode.

[Keir Gaines]

That was such a good episode.

[Lauren LaRosa]

I don't know if we have any more time, but I had some stuff from that episode.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, I can sit here and talk to Kiera all day. We can talk to you all day, but he got a busy day, man. Carla got him out here working, so.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, go, go watch that. You open it with saying you think men are best off being invisible.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. Invisibility sometimes is protective for men. And if you want me to dig deep into that, man, go follow. Learn the hard way. POD and also my brand new book, Learn the hard Way just debuted. We doing pre orders. It drops September. Make sure that you get that wherever books are sold.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I thought it was called it all starts when you do what I say.

[Keir Gaines]

I said the book Learned the hard way.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Keir Gaines]

Nah, don't listen to that. I got too much motion. I got too much motion. The book is called thank you, Charlemagne. The book is called it all starts when you do.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, I was like, damn, I missed the book.

[Keir Gaines]

No, the book is. It all starts when you do. Grab it. Wherever books are sold.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes, it's available for pre order right now, like he said. Comes out September 1st. Man. Kid, hope to have you at the Mental Wealth Expo this year, man.

[Keir Gaines]

Invite me, dog.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yo, you're invited. Me and Dab have. We definitely had you. Top of the list, man. Glad that you was in town this week and we could have you on the show. You're actually the perfect guest to have this week with all the conversation.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, man. And it's Mental Health Awareness Month. Happy Mental Health Awareness month, y'.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

All.

[Keir Gaines]

Y' all taking care of y'. All.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yeah, a lot better now.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah. Good for you. I love that. That's honest right there.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's just amazing how God always works. Like, Dr. Cheyenne Bryant was just here.

[Lauren LaRosa]

Yep.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I was just like, yo, you were in town. We booked this last week, but I was just thinking to myself, like, this, you the perfect guest to have this week.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

All the conversation that's happening with social media and content creators and licensed therapists like you, you are the embodiment of that. You started off as a content creator who became a licensed therapist.

[Keir Gaines]

Yeah, man. It's, you know, all in God's time. How about that? It all works out all right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's Kia Games. It's the Breakfast Club. Thank you for coming, brother.

[Keir Gaines]

Appreciate y' all for having me hold up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Every day I wake up.

[Keir Gaines]

Wake your ass up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The Breakfast Club minutes or y' all done?

[Sanjanah Bhasker]

Want to get more work done with less effort? On Tick Tock, creators are sharing AI automation tips that save time and deliver better results.

[Keir Gaines]

Tap to discover Try Tick Tock Now.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenko, Kirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week. My guests, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

[Timbo]

Where does your group perform?

[Keir Gaines]

We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Timbo]

Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning the Internet lost its mind and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source. The athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports slice on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more more, follow Timbo Slice Life 12 and the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

[Diana Maria Riva]

Hey, I'm Diana Maria Riva and on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad. From Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate midlife's most fantastic bs unfiltered conversations from night sweats to fupas to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me or does every woman my age want to look at

[Keir Gaines]

Pinterest instead of having sex Sex?

[Diana Maria Riva]

Sometimes they say we can't polish a turd, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be? With Diana Maria Riva on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren LaRosa]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.