← The Breakfast Club
The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Pastor Michael Todd & Natalie Todd Talk “Relationship Goals,” Therapy & Healing, Druski “Mega Church” skit + more
01:04:22
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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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Tonight, kick off the Winter Olympics in style with the opening ceremony from Italy featuring a special performance by Mariah Carey. Celebrate the greatest athletes from around the globe as they come together to go for gold. Lipsy for sensational. The opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics. Ilya Malin redefining this sport tonight at 8 Eastern, 7 Central, Central on NBC. And Peacock. Game day energy is real, whether it's celebrating with friends at a bar or.
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Cheering at a watch party.
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Most Yakima county young adults already know the winning play. Scoring a sober ride home.
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94% of Yakima county young adults don't drive impaired.
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Celebrating the big game is better when.
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Everyone gets home safely.
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Catch a ride, not a dui. Most drive sober. A message from safe Yakima Valley.
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That's right, it's DJ Envy.
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It's your girl, Jess. Hilarious.
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And I go by the name of Charlamagne Tha God. And we are the world's most dangerous morning show, the Breakfast Club. You just finished listening to, you know, our podcast for today.
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C
That's right.
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D
And we want you to go watch the visuals on Netflix. You know, we. We're still on YouTube, but it's the clips on YouTube. But if you want to watch the Breakfast Club in full, if you want to see what you just listened to, go to Netflix.
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C
That's right.
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Find us on Netflix.
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B
Sure. It's so weird. This app shows that my credit score is pretty good, but I couldn't get the car loan. Are you using myfico.com? no, it's some other company. Oh, you should get a myfico account instead. FICO scores are the ones used by 90% of lenders. And other credit scores can vary up to 100 points.
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That would have been helpful yesterday. Get the scores lenders use. Get the right FICO credit score for your credit goal, including your FICO scores used for mortgages, auto loans and credit cards. Visit myfico.com or download the Myfico app to get started today.
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Hold up.
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Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club.
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C
Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlamagne Tha God. We are the Breakfast Club. Lon Larose is here as well. We got some special guests in the building.
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D
Yes, indeed.
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C
New movie out relationship goals. We have Pastor Michael and Pastor Natalie Todd in the building.
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D
Good morning.
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E
What's going on, family? Y' all good today?
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C
How y' all feeling?
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D
Congratulations.
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E
Hey, thank you, man. This is a awesome moment, a crazy moment.
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A.
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E
A moment that I Didn't know was gonna happen, but God did. And so to be here last night we went to Times Square and saw a billboard of relationship goals like wild in the middle of the street. And matter of fact, the book came out during the pandemic. The first time we did an interview was in 2020 when couldn't tour couldn't do nothing. The book came out and went number one New York Times bestseller for 13 weeks.
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B
Congratulations.
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E
And six years later, now it's a movie starring Kelly Rowland. We got one third of Destiny's Children, 1/9 of Wu Tang Clan and partnered with my brother Devon Franklin. So we're just excited to be in this moment right now.
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B
Congratulations couple.
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A
Yeah, y' all so beautiful.
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E
Thank you.
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D
Like you said, it started as a book. What made this story feel necessary to tell in film form right now?
- [03:21]
E
Well, the truth of the matter, it started as a sermon series. I was just trying to help people around me, man, people are dealing with a lot of toxic relationships, a lot of hurt and pain around relationships. A lot of people escaping in relationships that they don't even want to be with those people. But it's a good time for just a moment to get their mind off of what's really going on. And so I was like, man, how can we help? So I just did it as something that helped. Yeah.
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D
What did you say?
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B
The sermon series started because of our relationship. Our good friends was like, you need to do a series about relationships.
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E
Because we've been together since we were 15 years old, we've went through a lot.
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B
I mean, if you can imagine being with somebody through their evolution from a 14 year old boy all the way to a grown man, there's a lot of evolution that happens in there that you have to let go and allow them to grow, myself included. But he did do more wrong than I did.
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A
Sorry, big guy.
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D
What did he do, Natalie?
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E
Yes, I want know.
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B
He lost his mind when he was 14. 15?
- [04:22]
E
No, no, no. It was like 18, 19.
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B
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
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E
21. No, I just basically we took a break cuz I, I was. It was super. I mean, when you're 15 years old, you can't do nothing but be in love. But then ask your mom and them for a ride. So, you know what I'm saying? So we're going through the motions. Starts getting more serious as I'm graduating high school, about to go to college, and. And she's like, yo, what are we doing? And I was like.
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B
And most women mature way faster than men, you know, so we was kind of talking about marriage.
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E
And I was like, I don't have a credit score. So I was like, hold on. Let's take a pause. And I just wanted to take a break for a second Just to figure out who I was, what I wanted to do, all that other stuff. Well, when I took a break, I seen cheeks and breasts and people, and I got distracted.
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D
Listen, you ain't got to explain to the choir.
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E
You already know. And so what ended up happening was I didn't want to be with any of those people, though. Yeah, I wanted to be with her, But I didn't have discipline in my life. I didn't have structure. I didn't have character. I didn't have integrity.
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B
We didn't have mentors, either.
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E
We didn't have any of that. And so it was like, so both of us got with other people. We hurt each other. We did a whole bunch of stuff. And then we realized, like, yo had.
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B
To try to win me back. Why does that happen? When you break up with someone, and then all of a sudden, the other guy comes in and he's, like, kind of feeling, like, those little voids. It caught me in a weak moment, you know? And he was the complete opposite of what Mike was.
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E
Complete opposite.
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B
And actually, Mike actually was whack. Oh, my.
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E
Let me just. That wasn't godly. Sorry.
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D
That wasn't godly. No, that is.
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E
Godly was w.
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B
I understand.
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A
In the moment, though, it felt like this is what I was waiting for. I just wish he could have done it, and then someone else is there, Seeming like a prize, you know what I'm saying?
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B
And it feels like, okay, that might be the answer, and they kind of swoop in, and I feel like, honestly, if you have a guy that doesn't have the best intentions, they pick up on that, like, hero kind of thing in the moment and, you know, and kind of play down the other dude. And I would never Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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D
That relationship wasn't a response to just the trauma of, you know, not being with Mike no more.
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B
Absolutely. That's what I mean. Like, if you've been a woman and you've, like, had a man cheat on you or leave you or whatever, like, there is definite hurt. There is definite, you know your know, comparing yourself and judging yourself on the other girl. If you find out who that is and all those, like, natural things, just being human, you feel. So if you get someone else to come in and feeling like they're filling that void, which is actually not a place for a man to feel at all. It's me. But at the time, you know, I'm. I'm young, so. And there's no. I had. We had nobody that was like another adult who had went further in relationships and had a healthy relationship to speak into that with. Yeah. There was no place for me to bounce off the thought, so we had to figure all this out on our own. And it was honestly 10 years of him putting drops back of trust into the bucket. Because you lose it in buckets, that trust is gone, but it's built back in drops. And that is a hard concept to get when you're 20 something years old or whatever, especially as a man. It's like, you know, you get that thing.
- [07:28]
E
A lot of people quit. And a lot of people quit.
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B
Yeah. You don't need my codes if you. If you trust me, like, you need my codes. You don't need my. Like, you're insecure, blah, blah, blah.
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E
Because I messed up. And I had to be the person to do the work on the inside of me. And so I had a revelation and God really challenged me to become the man that I wanted my daughters to marry.
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B
Yeah.
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E
And. And that was my wakeup call. Like, it's like, what type of man would you want your daughters to marry? And I tried to become that. We didn't have kids at the time, but I knew one day we would. And so I started doing all the things.
- [08:00]
B
And his genuine relationship with God.
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E
Yeah.
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B
And I actually shut myself in the room and I was like, lord, I'm not coming out this room until you give me an answer. And this is. Swear to Jesus. This was. I have never experienced this since then to this degree. He literally, like, felt it in my, like, soul. Like, he's going to change. He's going to honor you. He's going to treat you like a rare jewel. And the crazy thing is, once we got back together, years later, he literally said those words to me and I was like, God, you are. This is just wild. So relationship Goals is y story.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So.
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E
So the movie is not our story, but it's got a lot of the book. It's a rendition. It's a lot of. Yeah, it's a lot of things that happen to us in relationship because everybody deals with this in some way or another.
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B
No matter who you are, what language.
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E
You speak, it doesn't matter. Everybody is meant for love, is meant for connection, is meant to be together with somebody and you're trying to find that person. But a lot of people won't do the work that it takes because it doesn't just click in like Legos.
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B
And that's what I had to see before I came back, before I entertained anything. I had to see that the work was actually happening. And I had to know. I think the biggest guide was knowing that that work that he was doing or the changing how he was, how he was evolving wasn't solely because of me. Because I'm human. I'm going to mess up. I'm not going to hit every mark that, you know, a man would want me to have. And so when I knew that his measuring gauge was higher than me, that gave me a lot of security to know that, like, at the end of the day, I know I can pray to God. And that's going to switch that whole man up because his heart is actually devoted to him. You know, what do you say to.
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C
Those individuals, especially those men? You hear this a lot, right? A man will mess up in a relationship and then after a month or two months, like, all right, enough, enough. You got to forgive. But that doesn't necessarily mean the woman is healed. It doesn't mean that the trust is given. What do you say to those individuals?
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D
I love what she said about the drops. Like, you lose it in buckets, but you get it back.
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C
That's right.
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E
And that's the, that's the sad reality that you should be thinking about before you mess up. And, and, and, and most people don't do that. It's like, ah, it's just one night. Ah. Then nobody ever find out. Ah, and you go off that impulse and your feelings and all that other stuff, and you don't realize this one 10 minutes is going to cost you 10 years.
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D
10 minutes.
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E
I'm just saying, brother, there's some people out here and it's 10 minutes, brother.
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B
Like, like. What I'm saying is, talking about all the pre up to it, it ain't the after the actual act. Unless you out here, I don't know what you know.
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E
All I'm telling you is, all I'm telling you is it can cost a lot more than you're willing to pay. And that's what sin does. It takes you farther than you want to go. It leaves you in a place that you never thought you would be in. And then it leaves you there to try to figure out how to get back. And a lot of times for men, our pride gets in the way of staying in the fight for what we know we need. And so what ends up happening is we were like, man, this is too much, man. Forget this. I'll go find somebody else. No, no, no, no. You can keep that. You can do that. And then you spend all this time searching for what you already had but you wouldn't work for. And the thing for me is I just think that is a new revolution of men that need to come into the fold of taking accountability and actually being ones to be like, yo, I messed this up and I'll do whatever I need to do to get to back to the place. Cuz you cannot go and plant a bad seed here and expect to over here reap good harvest.
- [11:35]
B
And as a woman.
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D
I'm sorry, go.
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B
Wait. As a woman, all those natural human emotions that he's talking about, we went through them too.
- [11:42]
E
Yeah.
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B
And. But like I said, I saw the work and I heard what God had told me and it was. He was matching up to that. But as a woman, there is still this like lingering comparison that you can have in the background of your mind. And like I was, I figured out with him, it was like, okay, a man doing his work, trying to put those things back in drops. But I had to realize I got to do my work too. Meaning that it takes two people. That means I have to let my. The validation that I feel for my hurt or my anger. I have to. If I desire this to really happen, I have to work on trying to trust him. Yeah. And that takes a lot of your valid anger, your valid emotions to try to control him and really give him to God. Because if he is actually doing the work, that's like, I gotta try to do my work too. And that is my healing just for my own self. We've counseled a lot of people, people that are married or in whatever relationship you have, situation. Yeah. There is this natural comparison, even when it comes to sex, that you don't feel completely safe to be completely yourself in the most intimate way because you feel like they cheated on. They cheated on me. So there was this level of. When we got married, it was like it took me years to get to the place to where I felt fully myself, to allow myself to be everything I wanted to be. Even in the bedroom. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [13:10]
E
With the.
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B
Oh, good.
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A
Did you feel like, Natalie, you needed that single season that you had? Because that's also a conversation woman too. When you go through the heartbreak, it's like, okay, now I got to be in my whole phase. I got to do this and. But people will say no, spend time with yourself. And I know you talked about that in your digital series.
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B
Right.
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A
Single but not alone. Do you think that that's needed?
- [13:29]
B
I think so. I did not do it perfect. Like I said, the guy, the other guy came up in there. So I found that out the hard way. But I will say, because of that separation, it put me in a place where I felt like I got to the point where if this happens, where we get back together or we don't, I'm going to be okay. Yeah, like, that took a lot of work to get there. And it feels like when that actually happened, like, I was willing to let him go. I quit doing like this. And I went like this. Like, God, if this is for you or for me, I'mma hold it like this. And I feel like once I actually really did that and was settled in my soul, that's kind of when everything kind of started.
- [14:08]
E
It started working.
- [14:09]
B
Working got. You took a lot of work after that, though. I mean, like years or whatever. But yes, that answer question, how do.
- [14:17]
E
You get over that, though?
- [14:18]
C
Like, what is it?
- [14:19]
B
That's what I was going to ask you when you were talking about you.
- [14:22]
E
Being basically bitter after a man, like.
- [14:25]
B
Hurts you, you know what I'm saying?
- [14:26]
E
And then he comes back and you want to be with him, but you don't know how to not be angry with him.
- [14:31]
B
You don't know how to try to trust him. Like you said, you gotta start, you gotta try.
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E
How do you get to that point?
- [14:38]
B
What is the work? Like, how do you even start that? Well, I would say, for one, don't negate that. You're the victim in the relationship. So it's kind of like, you got to lead this. And so if the man is not leading this because he was the offender, then it's like, okay, well, then I'm, I'm out. There's no reason for me to work on not being bitter. There's no reason for me to. To try. But if you see that, that feels like that gives you the assurance and safety to try to let your guards down.
- [15:09]
E
So let me be, let me jump in right here. Like, she wasn't convincing me to do nothing.
- [15:14]
B
And that's the thing.
- [15:15]
E
I was leading the charge to do the work on myself. And if you're not willing to lead as the man of the relationship, get up out of there, young lady, old lady, middle age, auntie, grandma, get up out of there. Because a man knows what he wants.
- [15:32]
B
He knows what he wants.
- [15:32]
E
I don't care what nobody talks about. I don't care about this indecisive culture that's in here. This passive aggression. A man knows what he wants. If he wants steak, he gonna get a steak. If he wants chicken, he gonna get chicken. And all these people, I don't know. I don't know. When you know what you want, you go after it. And I think that we have. I would say to all my sisters out there, we let a lot of dudes pass because they will not make a decision. And I really believe that it's manipulation in the long run. It's like playing with people's heart. Let them people go and find their freedom and find their healing and find their. But I had to lead the charge.
- [16:09]
B
And I really had to disconnect for him to get to that place. I was, I. I was. He didn't know whether. I didn't know whether he was alive or dead for almost a year. It was like I was. I was out of there.
- [16:19]
D
My wife did that to me. That boy, bro, took you out, bro.
- [16:23]
E
I found out where she worked. I found out where she worked. I was going. I didn't know where she worked. Then I found out where she worked. Her and my older brother work together. I start wanting to go and chill with my older brother, which I never did before, cuz that's. That's where she worked. She would come. She would come in there, she would act like she didn't.
- [16:42]
B
Will you tell? I was the top employee when he came in. I was the MVP employee. You hear me? I'm scrubbing stuff I don't even got to do. I was like, he is not in here. I cannot believe he's here.
- [16:54]
D
That movie. That's in the movie a little bit.
- [16:57]
E
But what ended up happening in this journey is it made me understand the value of working for something valuable. She was valuable and she was worth working for. She was worth me changing for. And as I started going up in my relationship with God and she started going up in her relationship with God, we got closer together. So it's a triangle in relationship. And a lot of people have nothing higher than them to pull them to.
- [17:22]
B
And that's like the. I don't want to say mystical, but when the average person will come and like. Well, how there is this intangible part that spiritual. Yes, exactly. That's what it is. So that triangle that he just made for everyone to visualize, that brings it together. But the moment that it ain't really there, it ain't gonna really line up, it's not really gonna work.
- [17:47]
A
What did that. Pastor Mike Ty, what did that do to your vulnerability? Like having to Put your tail between your legs.
- [17:53]
E
What are you talking about? It made me become a well rounded, emotionally aware man. Like you're told as young, hey, man, forget her. Like, bros before hoes. And bro ain't. There's tons of fish in the sea.
- [18:06]
D
Girls are like buses. You miss one next 15.
- [18:08]
E
I mean, just think about it. It's in our music. It's in our songs. It's in our. It's in the language.
- [18:14]
B
It's all the things.
- [18:15]
E
So you start thinking like, yo, maybe this is, hey, yeah, maybe she wasn't the one. And then you start realizing, like, hold on. But she was the one for me. Like, hold on, wait. I mean, this may not be for y', all, but this for me. And I'm about to let. I'm about to let. What's going on. So it made me humble. That's the word I would use.
- [18:31]
C
Can somebody now do that? And the reason I ask, right, because now, listening to your story, right, I remember chasing my wife. I was at her lock every day. I went to her, you know, I was outside her window. I pulled up wherever she was with the radio.
- [18:44]
E
With the radio.
- [18:46]
C
But I pulled up everywhere she was.
- [18:48]
E
But she was working.
- [18:49]
C
It didn't matter because I was like, I want that. Yeah, Today, that's considered stalking now, you know what I mean? Which is crazy. It's considered stalking.
- [18:56]
E
I mean, especially when you talking about you outside of somebody window. Honestly, that's. That's all facade because there are women who are being pursued by men that love it. They're. They're. Every woman wants to be pursued. I don't care what nobody says. Now, they might have particular ways. They want things.
- [19:13]
B
They're a weirdo. You know, stalking, that's different. It was your relationship. See what I'm saying?
- [19:21]
D
But what I think he's blurring the lines, though. I don't like that. It's a difference between stalking.
- [19:25]
C
No, the reason I'm asking, because they broke up. He was never really messing with his big brother. Now he popping up at work all the time. Oh, bro.
- [19:32]
E
But I wasn't crazy with that. You know what I'm saying? I was just like, yo, I'm here to pick up my. I'm here to pick up my brother 30 minutes early, you know what I'm saying? An hour early.
- [19:41]
C
Yeah.
- [19:41]
E
Every try to make it seem like you hitting the storm. I'm not behind from under the band. No, not doing that at all. But humility is really the key, I think. And knowing what you want, and that's why in even relationship goals, like, the whole concept is like, aim. Like, everybody saying, shoot your shot. Shoot your shot, but you got to shoot it at the goal. Like, Steph Curry doesn't pull up from the half court and throw it into the bleachers. He's aiming for a goal. And I think too many people are shooting their shot, but they not aiming at nothing. And that's why we called it relationship goals. Not for something to be comparative. It's for something you and the person that you are with to find a goal that you're going after. And then I believe, and Natalie believes that you can win in relationships.
- [20:27]
D
You know the title, Right. Like, I always thought about that term, relationship goals. It can feel aspirational. Yeah. But it can also feel intimidating.
- [20:34]
C
Yeah.
- [20:34]
D
So how do you redefine goals in a way that's healthy and realistic?
- [20:38]
E
You just said it. You define them. What's the goal of the Breakfast Club, y'? All? Trying to reach as many people as possible and. And put culture out there and stuff. You've been at other radio stations or other news outlets that. That wasn't the goal. Do you understand? Every place you come into defines goals. What's the goal of your family? What's the goal of how much money you make? What's the goal?
- [20:59]
B
And so, in other words, I see, like, principles.
- [21:02]
E
Yeah.
- [21:03]
B
Like, I knew that he had a lot of the principles that I wanted in whoever I was going to be with for the rest of my life. I saw those things in him. So that's why it was such a struggle. I mean, went through depression, all the things. And I got to the point with asking God, when I got like this, I was like, even though this man has all of the principles that I would want, there's something in here that he hasn't handled within himself. I'm like, that's sorry for you. Like, you the one that's gonna lose out at the end of the day. But. But seeing that he was willing to do the work there, those principles, so the goal or whatever, like, he was definitely a family man. He absolutely loves the Lord with all of his heart. He will pray like I'm. It's not the one. Not that I don't pray, but I'm saying he would actually pray. Pray for us, like, in our. In our relationship. He would actually push me towards the goals and dreams and aspirations that I had. I saw him have respect for women. That was, you know, different standards of what women could be, from, like, the hoochie mama woman to grandma. I Saw that he had the same type of respect for all. But then finding, like, you cheated. Like what? But still immature, still growing. I mean, he was young at the same time. But those principles that I wanted or goals, that was something that, like, guided who I wanted. That's why it was so hard for me, where I was like, God, if. If this ain't it, I' ma hold it like this. But, Lord, I might be single for the rest of my life, so I may not marry.
- [22:31]
D
So. So what does this sermon, this book, this film say to couples who feel like they're failing?
- [22:37]
E
Yeah.
- [22:37]
D
Because their relationship doesn't look like what they see on online. It's so called goals.
- [22:41]
E
It gives them hope, like the whole journey of life. And I need everybody to hear me say this. It's about progression, not perfection. And online tries to make perfection the goal, but we have to make progression the goal. I just want to be better this week than I was last week. And I'm not even talking a lot better. I'm talking just one step, one inch, one moment better. I cussed you out last week. This week, I'm going to use at least two less words.
- [23:12]
B
It's your bounce back time. That's what I've told her before. I'm like, it's really. Even in therapy, you know, learning different pathways in your brain and when you get triggered and trauma and trying to learn a different way to respond when you do get triggered, a lot of that is just your bounce back. It's not that that trigger that trauma leaves. It's just how I process it. And even if I do feel my natural trigger response, how quick can I bounce back? And when you start exercising that different pathway, then that's where growth happens. And if you have two people trying to do the same thing, then that's worth staying for. That's worth fighting for. How do y' all handle disagreements now?
- [23:48]
E
Jesus talk.
- [23:50]
B
Yeah.
- [23:53]
E
What I'm saying is, Jesus. Because we always have them.
- [23:55]
B
We want to talk therapy.
- [23:57]
E
Yes. Intensive therapy. We not perfect. We're not perfect. I want to make sure that everybody knows. Yeah.
- [24:05]
A
Yeah.
- [24:05]
E
Because I wanted to make sure everybody knows we're not perfect. I want to be very clear that this is a real relationship.
- [24:12]
B
Absolutely.
- [24:13]
E
I want to be very clear that we disagree all the time. And because of that, we have figured out ways to be able to come back to center. And it's the bounce back time where it used to take hours and hours and hours.
- [24:29]
B
And it's work. I mean, trying to learn different ways to communicate one of the things that our therapist told us was in it. It's not perfect yet. Is when you do have a discrepancy, try to not use the word you.
- [24:42]
E
That's hard.
- [24:44]
B
I mean, just imagine. Okay, so a lot of times you take ownership for your. Your own feelings. And what that does, that disarms your partner to not automatically feel defensive. When you say, when I was at work today and I didn't get the phone call, it made me feel lonely or unwanted.
- [25:08]
E
That's vulnerable.
- [25:09]
B
That is disarming. Because if I say, when I was at work and you didn't call me, I felt, blah, blah, blah, blah, you forgot about me.
- [25:17]
E
And then automatically.
- [25:18]
B
And so it allows you to see the other person and go straight to their vulnerability. And if they are doing the work and they really do care, that's like, I don't want you to feel lonely or alone. Like, that's never my intention. And now we can actually talk to try to rectify or come back together. But it's hard not to use that word. You. And it takes. Sometimes our conversations take a long time because you really trying to talk.
- [25:42]
E
It's like, no.
- [25:43]
B
And I went to like, you really gotta think about how you word stuff. But it really is a technique that really does help.
- [25:52]
E
And it's work. And that's what I'm saying for everybody that's in relationship. The relationship you desire is the relationship you design, and the relationship you design is the relationship you work at, period.
- [26:04]
C
What do you tell a couple about, you know, cheating? Right. Earlier today, during Just Fix My Mess, a gentleman called and he said, a woman called.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah.
- [26:12]
C
Or was it a guy?
- [26:13]
E
It was a guy that called and.
- [26:14]
C
Was like, it was a girl.
- [26:16]
E
It was two calls.
- [26:17]
C
Yeah. But they were both talking about cheating and the whole thing. They were having problems in a relationship, and I guess the guy cheated and the girl cheated. The guy cheated and the girl wanted to take him back. Right. And she was saying that, what's wrong with taking somebody back? I think a lot of times we get into this thing in our head. If somebody does step out the marriage, man or woman, the first thing is.
- [26:33]
E
Leave them, leave them, leave them. Yeah.
- [26:34]
C
What are your thoughts on that? Because that's usually the first thing. And like you said completely, if you didn't give him another opportunity, y' all wouldn't be here. If you didn't take the opportunity and say, I want to better myself, you wouldn't be there. So what do you tell those couples and those individuals?
- [26:45]
E
So to be clear, I did not Cheat on Natalie in our marriage. Okay, so to be very clear, this is before we got married, but it's the same level of injury. Correct. So I just want to be very clear. So it's still trust broken, it's still all of that. But if somebody is in that situation right now, the thing is what Natalie's been saying and what I believe full heartedly is that person actually doing the work. Most people want the cheating to have happened. Them to say sorry, them to go to dinner, them to buy a Birkin bag, and then it be over. And the gift does not repair the chasm you put in that person's heart. And that's where it's gonna take time. And if somebody is not willing to give the time, the effort, the energy to the work that it takes. And that's what everything else going on, like that's with kids, that is with your business blowing up, that is with all the things. If you're not going to give that the time it needs to heal. Nobody tells anybody that goes through a cancer treatment, hurry up and heal, because you know that what happened, Your body is trying to restore itself after surgery, after the. But in relationships, we always be like, yo, hurry up.
- [27:56]
B
Yeah, so you mean like that? You mean like that once a cheater, always a cheater kind of thing mentality.
- [28:02]
C
I would say a lot of times people feel like, yeah, I think a lot of people look at relationships like that and somebody steps out, men or woman, it's like they can never change.
- [28:11]
A
I think it's the outside opinions too. Especially like when you marry, like once you get to that married point, or if your family just has like a certain view of the person you're with. Once they find out something, they hold onto it. So you have to deal with the embarrassment of them having conversations about it. Looking at you like, girl, but they doing the same thing or they doing nothing at all. Cause they ain't got nobody. But that's hard to deal with sometimes.
- [28:32]
B
That's real life. And then I. I always go back to like, what? Whatever your opinion is like. My real life?
- [28:40]
E
Yeah.
- [28:41]
B
Is great. Like my real relationship outside of all public opinion. Like, I am a introvert to the core. It don't seem like it right now, but I love me my bed. I love my TV show and my food that in the bed. So anyway, our real relationship is great. But I would say patterns is the thing from public opinion. Judge whoever you're with by their patterns. Okay, so they cheated. But from here on out, is the pattern repeating itself or Is it starting. You're starting to see changes now. Don't be. Don't be naive now. If they say they cheated, but you see all the patterns are the same. There's no. No putting you above all the others. So you got. He got whack friends that are just encouraging the cheating mentality. If he's not. If he's hanging with them just as much as he was before, it's like, is that feeding our relationship? And are you even wise enough to see that? And are you willing to let that go?
- [29:41]
E
Like, so you have to say the B word. Boundaries.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:46]
C
You also mentioned earlier about, you know, phone codes and.
- [29:48]
E
And being together.
- [29:50]
C
What's your thoughts on that? Because a lot of times in certain relationships, a man to have his phone. Don't go on my phone. A woman to have his phone, crazy. What. What are your thoughts on that?
- [29:57]
B
Wackety whack. I mean, what.
- [30:00]
E
She can open my phone right now.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah, there's no.
- [30:03]
E
She can open my phone right now.
- [30:04]
B
I don't open her phone. That took work. Now, we're not going to say that was perfect, because that was part of the. The issue when we try to get back together. And it took years for us to figure all this stuff out, but it was like the phone. Y' all know that phone be up here and it ring, and they'll be like, take off or whatever. Like, you already know.
- [30:22]
E
Like, what can I tell somebody that's listening to this? The greatest freedom you will ever have is when you have. When you have no reason to lie.
- [30:29]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [30:29]
E
The peace cannot help but tell everybody when you don't have anything to hide. When you can actually. Like, if you get a call from somebody that's suspect and be like, for real, like. Like, I have no idea. Like, grab that. Like, y'. All. The weight of trying to keep up the stories, them black screens, no anxiety around. I can. I can lose my phone and. And not y'.
- [30:56]
B
All. Yeah. And with all of our. Our staff, our people, people that know.
- [31:01]
E
My code, like, the people that are around me. Because I decided when I came out of hiding, which was really came out of lying, I decided that the only way that I could stay free is to live a life fully vulnerable, of accountability. And so the people that are around me, they got access to everything. They can ruin me. Because the truth of the matter is, I'd rather be ruined financially or in a way like that than my integrity be ruined.
- [31:25]
D
Let me ask you a question. How did y'.
- [31:26]
B
All.
- [31:26]
D
How do y' all balance faith based values with just the real messiness of modern relationships. Even when you talking about something like cheating and you hear things like, oh, the flesh is weak, or you have to forgive all the time. So how do you balance the faith based values with just the messiness of.
- [31:41]
E
I mean, that's what Jesus came to show all of us how to do. How you could be in the world, but not of it. Like, how you can.
- [31:47]
B
Actually, that's why I said our real life. Our real life is steady, solid routines, consistent loving, real good, like friendships. Now also, we do live in Tulsa, so there's nothing much to do.
- [32:03]
E
I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. But it's intentional. And some people need to make their lives simpler so they can live fuller.
- [32:10]
B
And that's a bunch of boundaries. That's all that. That is. Like, what. What do you allow in? And what do you not.
- [32:15]
D
So you're purposely not around the holes?
- [32:18]
E
No, not around the holes. My God, I'm sitting there.
- [32:20]
B
I mean, you don't know what somebody. What somebody's doing.
- [32:23]
E
Okay, okay, okay. What I'm saying to you is.
- [32:27]
B
Next book.
- [32:27]
E
People are everywhere. Okay? The truth of the matter is the life that we set up is one of accountability. Like, and that's what people don't understand. The disciplined version of you is the best version of you. You have never been your best version if you're not disciplined. And most people don't live disciplined lives. And I'm not just talking about working out. I'm talking about what you say yes to, what you say no to. I do charlamagne. 1/15th of the things that I could do to be out in culture and do. I don't go nowhere. I be at the house. I take my kids to school every morning. And because God made them at this wife, it was like, what's gonna be more valuable? Money in the bank. And people giving me likes and follows are my three daughters and my one special needs son. Being like, my daddy was there and he helped actually raise us. We have inside jokes like, he loves doing this with a. Like, you had a great father too, and I had a great dad.
- [33:26]
B
She's still alive.
- [33:27]
E
Shout out to my dad and my mom. They are phenomenal. Brenda and Tommy, I love you so much. But, like, I got five brothers. My dad was there for everything, gift giving, all that stuff. So I saw what it looked like.
- [33:39]
B
He's like one of those men that's everybody's pseudo dad.
- [33:41]
E
Yeah, he's like that kind of. That's my pops. And like, when I saw That I was like, I could never not be that. And so, again, success, to me, the goal for us looks different than it looks for other people. We've defined success as peace and not needing anything.
- [33:57]
C
So what did you think about. I know you've probably seen it online when Cam Newton had the conversation about he couldn't be friends with an attractive woman platonically.
- [34:06]
B
Boundaries. Congratulations for that.
- [34:07]
E
Discipline.
- [34:08]
B
If that's what he feels.
- [34:09]
E
No, no, no, no, no. He's saying that he couldn't because something might happen. Is that what you said about him? He said he don't have no platonic relationship. Yeah, well, that's what I said.
- [34:19]
B
Congratulations.
- [34:20]
C
But is that congratulations, boundaries or is that.
- [34:22]
E
It depends.
- [34:23]
C
Work on himself.
- [34:24]
B
Either. Either way, you got to start somewhere.
- [34:26]
E
He knows himself. He kept saying, I know me. I can't be around a beautiful woman.
- [34:29]
B
That's your personal. Stabbing her. If that's your personal conviction, the real poke in her.
- [34:35]
E
Yeah, that's emotional immaturity and that's your personal. Because I'm around beautiful women all the time and that does not even cross my mind. And you can ask all of them. So I think that's a different level.
- [34:48]
B
If that's the start.
- [34:49]
E
But if that's his standard, I'm okay with that. That's protection for him.
- [34:53]
B
Do what you gotta do. But.
- [34:55]
E
But him noticing, like, yeah, I got a problem. But how do you fix that?
- [35:00]
B
Cause you just can't just.
- [35:01]
E
You gonna be.
- [35:03]
B
Tonight, kick off the Winter Olympics in style with the opening ceremony from Italy. Featuring a special group performance by Mariah Carey. Celebrate the greatest athletes from around the globe as they come together to go for gold. The opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics. Ilia Malin, redefining the Sport tonight at 8 Eastern, 7 Central on NBC. And Peacock.
- [35:31]
C
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- [36:47]
A
We all come into January with big plans and resolutions, but February is usually when a lot of those dreams start slipping away. They think they're too far out of reach or too hard to pull off, especially when it comes to starting a business. Now. That's why Shopify matters. If you're finally ready to invest in yourself and start a business, Shopify makes it simple. And if you've already had a business, take it from us. Shopify can handle anything you throw its way. That's one of the reasons we shifted our stores over there. Whether you're selling a few products or a full catalog, Shopify grows with you. One login gives you access to everything. No password stress at all. Thousands of site templates mean no design skill needed, and your site still looks uniquely yours, representing you and your brand. I designed my Shopify site in about an hour or two and y' all it is top notch. The Bronco Grinding Store is amazing. They even have Shopify Sidekick AI that actually helps with marketing content and planning. You can sell on social media and even directly through ChatGPT. Starting a business is hard, but it is worth it. Trust me, I know. Don't let your dreams die in February. Let Shopify help you and thank yourself later for not giving up. It's time for you to start to invest in your business, not someone else's. Forechange. Head on over to shopify.com ben and see what it feels like to be the one in control of your future.
- [38:05]
B
Segregation in the day, Integration at night.
- [38:11]
A
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [38:16]
E
We didn't worry about what went on outside.
- [38:18]
B
It was like stepping in another world.
- [38:21]
A
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [38:29]
B
You saw the kkk. Yeah, they was dressed up in their uniform.
- [38:33]
C
The KKK set out to raid Charlie.
- [38:36]
B
Take him away from here.
- [38:38]
E
Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.
- [38:46]
A
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's place, a story that was nearly lost to Time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. You get your podcast.
- [39:05]
E
For ugly people all the time. You can't pick who you be around.
- [39:07]
C
Now, mind you, Jess is a little hurt because Jess is a friend and Jess is not around me.
- [39:11]
E
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:13]
B
He. Yeah, he said he.
- [39:14]
E
He told that guy he don't have one homegirl.
- [39:17]
B
No pretty homegirls, no nothing.
- [39:18]
E
And so you got a family friends, though. You trying to say I'm ugly or.
- [39:21]
B
You gotta be friends? Get outta here.
- [39:23]
E
You know what I mean?
- [39:24]
B
Get outta here.
- [39:25]
E
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think that what you're saying is really, y' all are crazy up here.
- [39:31]
B
Ninjas.
- [39:32]
E
What you're saying is actually something that people have to take accountability for in their own selves. If he knows that he has an issue with being controlled around beautiful women, I think it's good for him to be self aware also. And that's the word. Yeah, also. And I think that's a starting point, not an ending point. Because at some point you're gonna have to mature and not just him. I had to. So I'm talking about me right now. I had to mature to the point where this is not somebody that I'm supposed to connect with. There may be another relationship that God wants me to have with this person to help them, to bring them into some type of new understanding. And that's where I'm just saying, like, you limit what God wants to do in relationships. Because I do believe relationships are key fabric to your purpose, destiny. I mean, think about y' all being connected. How everybody's relationship in here took everybody to another level. If y' all couldn't even stand around each other without thinking like, my wife is not gonna like this. My husband's not gonna like, you couldn't together, that would be ridiculous. So it does take work. And I just believe all of us got to do our work. But shout out to Cam for knowing himself. Cuz a lot of dudes won't even admit that. A lot of dudes will act like, yeah, nah, I'm good around everybody. And then sliding into a room at.
- [40:51]
B
4 o', clock, definitely not the ending point. Cuz if he does desire, I don't know if he isn't one a relationship, but if he does desire to be in a relationship at some point, that woman wants to know he's in one. Okay. That woman just keep or women goodness. That woman, not just her, but women in general do want safety. So at the end of the day, I can feel that it don't matter who's coming in the room. Like, you cherish me most, you know, And I think that's with our relationship. That standard being God's word, put it above even me. And so that is where, like, not only does my husband not want to disappoint or disrespect me, he doesn't want to dis. Disappoint or disrespect God. So that level of measurement is what brings peace and safety.
- [41:38]
D
You use a great word, though, safety. Because even with that, even with Cam putting that out there now, when other women are around him, are they always gonna be thinking that he might just.
- [41:48]
E
He might just try to. Me.
- [41:49]
B
Yeah.
- [41:49]
D
He can't just do no business. Right?
- [41:52]
B
You can't just kick it like that limits. All your limits. A lot of opportunities.
- [41:56]
A
The movie made me think.
- [41:59]
D
Opportunities.
- [42:00]
B
It could limit opportunities because, like, what you just said, like, a woman can feel like, you know, am I in here? Am I. Am I forming this relationship. Say it's business related based upon how I just look. And is it. You try to do something more, or is it actually like my gifting my talent. My talent or whatever. And also limits the marriage or relationship that you're actually in. It limits how far that can go because of. Of safety always being a possibility of being breached.
- [42:31]
A
I was just gonna say. Well, so because of that, right off of the point you just said, where do. As women or as people, what are our boundaries? Cause it's like, you want to have the empathy of, like, okay, he's a man. He's learning. And especially as women, I feel like we get called out for not having empathy in the accountability factor.
- [42:45]
B
Right.
- [42:45]
A
Especially with men in relationships. But at the same time, it's like, when you gonna wake up? Like, so what's that balance of, like, when you gonna get this together? But I hear you, and I know you're human.
- [42:58]
E
Let me jump in. In this book, Relationship Goals, there's a chapter called does it need to end?
- [43:04]
B
That's what I was about to say.
- [43:05]
E
Because a lot of people won't even ask themselves that question. They. Natalie told you our story, and she got to the point, she was like, does this need to end?
- [43:14]
B
God, that point is hard to get to with a humble heart that is actually honest. It's not you giving up. It's not you being naive. It is literally like, I've reached as far as I can go. And so now the intangible either needs to happen or it's just settled in my soul that I'm. I'm out. This isn't. This isn't enough. This isn't what my principles are. And again, you're worth more than that. Yeah. And again, it's the patterns. So, yeah. I mean, your. Your girlfriend may be like, boo. Like, the patterns. He's not changing. Like, and you see it yourself, but you kind of trying to excuse it. Like, if that's happening, then it is. Like, all right. It really is. Does it need to end?
- [43:57]
E
And. And I think for us in this, there's a character in the movie named Brenda, played by Robin Thee. And she's literally love Robin.
- [44:04]
B
The.
- [44:04]
E
I mean, she's the best. Robin is the best, but she's in the relationship everybody wants to be in. She's married to a basket, or not married. She's with a basketball player. She's in this situation, and she's like, yo, this is not going anywhere. I have everything, but you don't really want me. And she had to ask herself in the movie, does this need to end? And I think there are a lot of women and men listening, because I don't want this just to be women. There are women out here tricking, too. And I want to be very clear that 20, 26, there's some other stuff going on. And, like, I just. The dating pool has pee in it. This is what I heard. And so, man, I'm so glad. But what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there is a way to navigate it. And that's why in this book, I'm giving principles no matter where you're at in your relationship. And that's why the hope for me was that this movie would be a wider net to cast out to people who would never come to my church. You don't gotta come to my church. Like, I'm saying it right now. You don't ever gotta come to my church. You ain't gotta. But I do want you to win in relationships. And so, like, hopefully you'll see this movie. If the message is a mirror to you at all, go get the book. Like, borrow it from somebody. If you can't buy it, go down. Somebody done bootlegged it on YouTube. Just go watch that. Like, honestly, this is not about anything, but I want you to win in relationships. And it's very hard to be what you can't see. And me and Nat wanted to just use what we've been through. Not perfect, put it in a book, be vulnerable, and hopefully somebody can move into the next layer of their relationship so they can win, become okay with their singleness. Actually get out of a toxic or abusive relationship. Like, like, I just hope nobody's in the same place relationally that they were this year, next year.
- [45:43]
D
Did working on the book or the film or the sermon spark any new conversations or arguments between the two of you?
- [45:49]
E
Completely. We went to therapy. Like, we believe in therapy and theology. Like, like nobody's business. A lot of people in church, they were like, let's just pray about it. And it's like, we can't just pray about it. We got to talk about it too. Like, we got to talk, talk about this. So me And Natalie, since 20, probably 21, have been doing five day intensive counseling in Colorado. Shout out to Julianne for two, three times a year.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah. It starts with you working on your. On yourself. I would say the catalyst that got us to intensive therapy was when our son got diagnosed with autism. I went into a deep depression and still struggle with it now. You know, it's like a. It's a everyday death, basically, when you see his siblings passing over him and all that stuff. So anyway, our good friends was like, hey, there's this place. And I think y' all both need to go. Because what will come against marriages more than anything is medicine and ministry are one of the hardest jobs to be in because they are for others. And it does can feel like 24, 7, depending on where your boundaries are. And then having a special needs child is really hard on marriages, too. A lot of divorce rates are very high for those three things. And we got two out of the three. And so our friends was like, hey, I think y' all need to go to blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [47:15]
E
This is us being pastors. This is us reaching millions of people.
- [47:19]
B
Yeah.
- [47:19]
E
And they're like, hey, you. Y' all need counseling.
- [47:23]
B
Yeah.
- [47:23]
E
And. And I thank God for the relationship goals of good friends friends. Because some people are looking for romantic relationships and the real goals you need is good friends.
- [47:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:33]
E
Because that's who you talking to. That's who you're getting advice from. That's who you go to when you about to pop off.
- [47:38]
B
Yeah.
- [47:38]
E
And we had good friends and they told us to go to counseling.
- [47:40]
B
And so much of that therapy will start to go by yourself. You know, we'll teach you about who you are, what your traumas, what your triggers are. Because it took two years for me to figure out that, oh, I got some. Some stuff.
- [47:53]
E
I was going for two years.
- [47:56]
B
I was so anti. I was like, I Don't even know what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna go in there, I'm like, what I'm gonna say or whatever. And that woman told me. But anyway, she broke it down. And we learned a lot of things and still are learning a lot of things. But to answer your question, with the book in the movie coming out, one thing I think the, the biggest thing that brought up between us is how do we want to go about stepping into this, this realm, this world, and how do we want. What boundaries are we going to create of how this can affect and not affect our lives, our family, our actual real lives? Why did you go back and going back to, you know, you said you fell into a deep depression when you, when your son was, when y' all son was first diagnosed with autism. Why do you think it was such a depression?
- [48:37]
E
Do you feel like in some way like you blamed yourself or failed him or like.
- [48:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the therapy part. So. So what I found out is that through my traumas, I grew up in a single parent home. And a lot of times in family structure, you find out from your childhood what role you played in your family story per se. And I took on the peacemaker. I took on the role of put everybody else first and make my needs small so that I'm good. You know, like moms are struggling with, with money. We're, you know, I was always aware of finances when I was little. I got my first pair of like Nike tennis shoes from a store when I was 13 years old. So I was aware of everything. But realizing that, like, putting myself back so that I don't feel pain from my father, I don't feel like I'm putting another burden on my mama, what she's already got going on be almost like caretaker in a way. But a lot of that I felt like, was that false control that I got at. If I'm good, I can keep everybody else good. And that is putting yourself last. And so with mj, I couldn't fix the situation. No matter what I did, I could not control it. If I could take it and make it me, that would feel great. I can't. There's nothing I could do. There is no real treatment. There is no reason why. And yes, I went through all the stuff like, did I do something wrong? Is it the food? Is it the air? Is it this, that? And the third. And that question is still up in the air and trying to live with the unknown. Everybody wants answers. If we had answers, so many people would probably feel Better, but that's not the world that we really live in. And so without having those answers and not allowing myself to grieve, that's still a work in process for me, because emotionally, I have learned how to remain like this. And one thing my counselor said, I hate it, but she said, the degree with you being so numb, the degree of which you feel the lows is the degree of what you will feel the highest. So if you allow and you live in this place of, like, this, where you're kind of numb, you're never gonna experience the amazing. Like, you'll never appreciate it and realize it, because you can't drop either. And so, yeah, I'm sorry.
- [50:54]
E
And in a way, Mike, did you.
- [50:56]
B
Feel helpless in that moment?
- [50:58]
E
Because there's nothing in that moment that.
- [50:59]
B
You can do to comfort her, fix her feelings?
- [51:02]
E
That was the worst season of my life because I didn't understand how to emotionally connect with her, and I couldn't fix it. So, like, it's like watching the person.
- [51:14]
B
And you got your son going on, too, so I can't imagine the person that you love.
- [51:18]
E
Literally, you're watching them kind of, like, disappear. Like, the joy come out of their eyes, and they're getting pale in spirit. And it's like, yo, we were Superman and Superwoman. Like, what happened? Like, and trying to do all the stuff that you used to do, and it don't work no more. And it's like, let's go to our favorite spot. And it's like, this wasn't good. It's like. And at the same time, I didn't emotionally, at that time know how to drop down and get in there and just sit with her, right? I'm trying to figure out how we can, you know, all right, well, let's go to Cayman Islands. And you sitting looking at a beautiful beach, but. But it just feels gray. And what I realized then again, is, thankfully, I learned how to do work for my woman back in the day when I was trying to get her, because I had to do now emotional work to connect with her again. And even two weeks from now, I canceled a trip to London to go do some stuff, because I'm going to counseling by myself for five days because I want to learn how to. And I said it last time I was up here. I think you asked me, like, what's one thing you would want to do better or something at the end of my interview, And I said, I want to learn how to communicate with my wife even better. I want to become elevated in my ability to articulate my heart and not just my feelings, because automatically my feelings will come out and I want you. We'll get to the heart, but I just want to be able to tell it. Like, today was hard for me and I feel like I'm carrying a lot and I just need you to hold me. That's okay.
- [52:48]
B
That it wakes up the nurturer inside of you.
- [52:51]
E
And that's easy right there.
- [52:52]
B
I mean, that's easy to do.
- [52:54]
E
But my natural thing is like, you good? I'm like, man, I'm good. Like, everything's fine. Like, and she knows. But to just. And so I wanna, I wanna become more skilled in my language. But that takes me turning down money, that takes me canceling a trip overseas, that takes me intentionally setting aside the time. Because when all of this is done, I'll still have this. Yeah, that's right.
- [53:19]
D
Hold on. I want to ask both of you something as a faith based couple, right to the point about your son. Why doesn't the serenity prayer work in moments like that?
- [53:27]
E
Because we live in a fallen world and when sin entered in with Adam and Eve, there would be things that happen that we would not understand. And this is why God says in Proverbs 5, 6, he said, Trust in the Lord in all your ways and he will direct your path. Lean not to your own understanding. We don't understand this. Like, we don't understand all these diseases, cancer and autism. We don't understand it.
- [53:52]
B
That was a big part of the depression, like I said, is not having those answers, even with your faith. I felt it. It feels like to me now, now that what I know is not having the answers is, oh, you have this super heavy thing. Imagine you just holding this huge thing that's just so overbearing. And it's like that actually never goes away. The weight of it never goes away. But now my hand just got bigger. Like your capacity can get bigger to hold the thing.
- [54:26]
E
Yeah.
- [54:27]
B
You can have supports from your relationships and therapy that may be holding your arms or whatever, but. But that doesn't mean the thing actually left. That doesn't mean the thing actually got easier or it got answered or the prayers worked perfectly or whatever.
- [54:41]
E
And that's why that scripture says, trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean into your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge God and he will direct your path. That's what we're doing. All we're doing is trusting. We have a beautiful family, we lead a lot and we're trying to help people. And sometimes all you can do is just lean back and be like, all right, God. I guess you got this.
- [55:00]
B
This one. Yeah.
- [55:01]
E
Cuz I, I, I, I don't have anything to make this happen. And that's why again, if those things I want to tell everybody looking for a relationship, if you can't go through hard things with that person, they're not your relationship goal. I'm just telling you right now, everything will not be red carpets and Instagram pictures and vacations. The majority of your life will be trying to figure out navigating hard things with this person.
- [55:27]
B
And where you put most of your time is where you're gonna succeed. The most successful things in your life will be where you put most of your time and effort in your research.
- [55:34]
E
And that's why people don't succeed in relationship because they don't put enough time and effort there.
- [55:38]
C
I gotta ask, you know, the church recently has, has been criticizing pastors wives. Right. And what they've been wearing. Right. We've been seeing that a lot online. What are your thoughts on that? On what? You know, I feel like they dive.
- [55:49]
D
More into Maud Bryan.
- [55:52]
E
Yeah, yeah.
- [55:52]
C
But it's been outside of just women in general, but it seems like, you know, they put more effort into what the woman wears.
- [55:58]
E
Yeah.
- [55:59]
C
Compared to the sermon. So what are your thoughts on it?
- [56:01]
B
Man, I think that's just humanity. I mean it's another one of those things. We live in a fallen world and a lot of it can be. There are some valid points, you know, to that. I also think that dressing for your the occasion is a big thing. I also feel like your, how you carry yourself, if you are classy and sophisticated, but you feel like being sensual for your husband out in the, out in the real world, not just in the room, then that's a great thing. He's a man at the end of the day. Like hello, now I'm not saying come out and look super thirsty or whatever, but you are. We are women. Like we have sexual needs. We want to be attractive.
- [56:44]
E
We and I thank you.
- [56:46]
B
Yeah. We desire for that for ourselves. Not only for my husband, but for my own self. Like I'm a woman at the end. Yeah, yeah. I'm a woman at the end of the day. I'm also a mother, but at the same time, I'm not walking in that, making pancakes in the morning for my kids while I take them to school or drop off. And I'm also not wearing it if I'm trying to do, you know, morning announcements at church. But if we are going to the Beach. I. If I was able to put on the bikini. I'm wearing a bikini. Why would I not? You know? And. And also, as a woman having four kids, them stretch marks happen. Hello. And there is this stigma of, like, if you got stretch marks, stretch marks all on your stomach. No, you put that one piece on because you want to cover it. You don't want to be judged. You feel almost embarrassed. And the best thing he told me is that he loved. I love everyone, love my stretch marks.
- [57:32]
E
And so my family.
- [57:33]
D
And so the moomoo either, though grandma got mad kids wearing that.
- [57:38]
B
My mom loved the good.
- [57:40]
E
I don't even want to think about that. What I am. What I'm gonna tag on to what Natalie's saying is that I think sometimes there are things that we do that go over the line. And that's gonna be in any field, pastor or postal worker. Okay. Let's just say that also. And I think there is some crazy hypocritical situations on body shapes and sizes. Cause if you're a big mama, can wear something tight as all get out, but because she is a larger woman, big chest, big booty, any. It's not considered attractive. And so what ends up happening is.
- [58:21]
D
You give a sermon about gluttony.
- [58:22]
E
Oh, completely. And then people are frustrated about it. But I'm saying that, hey, it's okay. Like, we just gotta make sure we have grace. Grace for people. The same level that you judge with is the same level you're getting judged with. And I just think that a lot of times people are so quick in this rage, bait, error to. To point out and judge what other people are doing when there's not a spotlight. And so I just. More grace. More grace. More grace to people so that they can have the ability to change. And, yeah, learn what you can and then change it up from there.
- [59:00]
D
You know, Pastor, I saw you. I saw your reply to Drew ski skit about megachurch passes. And you said it was hilarious, but it was a distraction from what you should really be focused on.
- [59:08]
E
Yeah.
- [59:09]
D
Can you expound on it?
- [59:09]
B
The craziest thing is people don't realize that our word for the year, which usually we always have one at the beginning of the year was forward. And that was before the thing even happened. Forward. And so if you can imagine what you would give advice to someone and that you're trying to encourage them in hard times to move forward, what are words that you would say? So what are we encouraging our congregation about? The word that we are saying is the word for the year. That's what he was addressing and through. And so some of the things that was said was like he was talking about our word for the year and it wasn't no reply. Believe me, in our real life, like.
- [59:51]
A
I said the photo and you mentioned the Rolls Royce. I think so.
- [59:57]
E
So what ended up happening? Yeah, we're not acting like we didn't hear it. We don't go around anything.
- [60:02]
D
I get what you're saying.
- [60:03]
E
Yeah, we're going to. Through it. And so my church is a church all over the world. I don't. We're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, but we literally have members of our church all over the world. So if something happens with the extent that that happened, I'm going to let them know that we're, hey, we good.
- [60:23]
B
Like, they're humans too. We want them. Like, I don't want our people to be feeling like you need to, you know, knuckle your buck online. You don't gotta create a fake account so you can go off on somebody. Like, you don't gotta, like, do all that or whatever. And so it is our responsibility to respond to our congregation, but it's a.
- [60:42]
E
Response, not a reaction. And so what I was telling everybody, that was the word of the year. We're going forward. And the thing that tries to stop people from going forward is lack of focus. There's a scripture that says, forgetting what's behind me, I press towards the things that are forward. And so that's all I was saying. And then the thing that, you know, I'm a pseudo comedian, I'd be trying to just make people laugh. And so what I said, number one, there's there was an AI picture going around that somebody made of me in the suit. And I was like, I wasn't you.
- [61:11]
B
No.
- [61:15]
E
I've never been big a day in my life. Remember, I was big. We found a picture. I was big. I never wore nothing. That suit, they lit.
- [61:24]
B
Wait, no, the, the face, though, it's. It's Ricky Ricardo. I mean, I didn't marry Mary Dominican. I mean, I know I did.
- [61:32]
E
You wanted to, though.
- [61:33]
B
I did.
- [61:34]
E
I thought that's.
- [61:36]
B
I did Strong black man.
- [61:38]
D
But you did say to Drew skit. You, you, you said you framed it as a, A, a parody of a broader critique of misplaced priorities within.
- [61:45]
E
Completely.
- [61:45]
B
Yes.
- [61:45]
E
And so I, I think that there was some truth in it. It holistically, which every, Any person that.
- [61:51]
B
Goes to church and lives in church. Yeah, we've been making jokes like this for years. Ain't nothing new or whatever. But there is. There is definite truth.
- [61:58]
E
But the link to me was something that I was a little taken back by because we have done things in our ministry intentionally to not be in that. We don't have an offering time at our church.
- [62:10]
B
And you know what?
- [62:11]
E
We don't pass buckets.
- [62:11]
B
You won't hype. You won't hype our ministry or yourself up or whatever. But for me, y', all, there is so much money our church has given in, like I said, the top of the year, word of the year. And then we also give statistics for the year prior to the church, so they know like finances, where we gave to, how much, how many salvations, all this stuff. And even in our local news, don't nobody come to say like your ministry has given over $36 million away to other ministries and other organizations. Don't nobody come and cover like you gave. How much did we give to the survivors of the.
- [62:48]
E
We bought every survivor of the Tulsa living Tulsa race massacre. We gave them $200,000, which would have been the medium age of their house that got burnt down. And we gave it.
- [63:00]
B
But ain't nobody covering that well more than Tulsa. The city hasn't done anything.
- [63:07]
E
So again, again, we have, me and Natalie, been pastors 11 years. Years. In 11 years, our church was started in the hood of Tulsa and we didn't have anything. And God bless us to help people. And my burden was that we are going to give back to the community. And if you check the records, we have given away over $36 million in 11 years. And he ain't gonna say, I only said it because she said he.
- [63:32]
B
I know. And you ain't gonna say, you know, that we personally hire auditors to come to come audit us.
- [63:39]
E
Because excellence is not just what you see, it's how you handle business behind us.
- [63:43]
B
Because we know a spotlight that's right.
- [63:44]
E
You like, he ain't gonna say it.
- [63:45]
B
But I will, you know what I'm saying? Like. Like we are in the spotlight. We ain't dumb. Like auditors come. And when I tell you, our friends and the people that we hired, they ain't played no games, you know what I'm saying? Like people, things was tight and right. We had to even change how we gave because it. If we're giving houses just away to the. To the widow or, you know, there's a way you got to go about that in a way you can't or whatever for good things, you know, and we had to learn that the hard way.
- [64:12]
E
We had to learn that There was a way to give. Because in the beginning, our ministry, when we started blessed. The Bible says to bless the orphans and the widows. We. We bought people houses, like $250,000 house, like this woman. And. And then we found out, hey, there's dealing with big.
- [64:26]
B
Dealing with big money. There's a way the IRS wants you to do that, to give money away.
- [64:30]
E
So I say all that today. All that to say is that I wasn't offended by the Drew Ski thing. Because you could only be offended when it applies to you. Yeah. And so I thought it was hilarious when I saw it. I was actually off of social media the whole time. I've been on a 21 day prayer and fasting, and I actually love the.
- [64:47]
C
Thing that was going on.
- [64:47]
E
So I didn't even know what was going on. And people was coming to me like, you good? I was like, good.
- [64:51]
B
What are you talking about? But at the same time, let's put two and two together, y'.
- [64:54]
A
All.
- [64:54]
B
People are gonna tell him what is going on. So they say, like you said you weren't in social media. Well, you said it's like, like there's other human beings in the world that can tell you what's happening right now that can show you a picture.
- [65:05]
A
Because I feel like when people came for the mess, they got a message. I mean, I'm about you anyway. But I talked about that on the podcast. Like, you still preached and people got a word, but they came because they wanted to see what you were going to say.
- [65:15]
B
Absolutely.
- [65:15]
A
And it worked.
- [65:16]
D
I agree with that. But I did bring it up because, you know, you said there were people who did not do what God said to do this week because they needed to be in the know of what was happening in the culture.
- [65:25]
E
Yeah.
- [65:26]
D
You got a movie coming out, God, this week.
- [65:27]
E
So again, is that a distraction if.
- [65:29]
D
People decide to go?
- [65:31]
E
For some people it is. I don't. Please believe what I'm supposed to do is what I'm supposed to do. If God tell you to do something else, you better do that.
- [65:38]
B
And he's also like, he's also addressing our people. Like, that was during. That was during church. He's speaking to our people, speaking to.
- [65:45]
E
The people who are defending and wanted to. I'm like, yo, God told you to spend time with your kid this week. And you over here in the comments with christman622 talking about you don't know him. And I'm like, that's distraction, y'.
- [66:00]
B
All.
- [66:01]
E
I tell people this all the time. Like, what the enemy can't get in front of and stop. He gets behind and pushes and he pushes people till they get distracted off of what they're supposed to do.
- [66:11]
B
I said this was the biggest publicity. Annie loop. Annie loop.
- [66:16]
E
Alley oop, Alley oop, Alley oop.
- [66:18]
B
Don't watch one's best. Alley oop. From God.
- [66:21]
E
Annie loop.
- [66:22]
B
Forget you. Okay. Any loop.
- [66:25]
E
Any loop.
- [66:27]
B
Any. Any from God. From God. Because I was like, you know what? Now everybody's gonna go watch this movie. Because they went like, oh, he's that of that. I was like, well, God, you know what they say, all publicity is good publicity. So I think that was strategic, too, that God saw this and turn that thing.
- [66:50]
E
Shout out to everybody. Yeah, Shout out to congratulations. But I do think there are broader conversations that have to be had, not just in the church, but outside the church of the way that we do things. And I think that at the end of the day, critique with the right heart makes everybody better. And so in my mind, like, if there's anything that I can be better at, again, the whole journey is progression, not perfection. I'm gonna get better the next time we come up here. We're gonna be better than we was this time.
- [67:18]
B
And so that consistency in him, what made me stay and I tell people his consistency is what I thank him for the most.
- [67:29]
E
Hold on now. Don't start up here.
- [67:31]
B
Your consistency to change and to be better for me and our kids and for the people that you lead. That is what makes me proud to stand next to you no matter what. Like, because our real life, I tell you all the time, is amazing, is blessed. Best is actual goals. Those are the things that people actually do aspire at the end of their lives. All these great men and women, one of the number one things they say on their deathbed is, I wish I would have put more time into my marriage and my children. And I told him, I told him, I said, that's not going to be our story.
- [68:03]
E
It's not going to be our story.
- [68:04]
B
And that is the number one thing that he prayed before he came, became a pastor with all these older saints around him when he was about to get. He prayed that he would not lose his family.
- [68:16]
E
That was it. And I never will.
- [68:17]
C
Well, let's close this out on a prayer. Relationship goals available right now on Prime Video. Pastor Michael, Pastor Natalie Nut Todd. Let's land this on a prayer, please.
- [68:26]
E
Okay, so let me say this before I pray. They made relationship goals number six on Amazon prime in 24 hours.
- [68:32]
A
I heard you overhead it did number one.
- [68:34]
E
So I hope it's from your mouth to God's ears.
- [68:38]
D
Might be number one by the time this end.
- [68:40]
E
Hey, hey, y'. All. If we want to keep getting good, positive, positive, hopeful, black stories told, we gotta support. They don't care nothing about opinions. They care about numbers. And so if, even if y' all have a watch party, I just want to say on the Breakfast Club, everybody streaming on their phone too, like, turn it down. I mean, we gotta be smart, y', all, because this is not a step just for us or Devon, Franklin or Kelly. This is a step for all of us. Us to be able to make impact in big ways and so grateful for that. And this is what we're going to do. We're going to pray that everybody wins in relationship. So, God, me and Natalie, we come here with Charlemagne, Lauren, DJ Envy, Father God, and Jess, and we're asking that you would make all of us better in relationships. God, I'm asking that every marriage, every single season, every situationship, everything, Father God, that is hurting are hard right now. I thank you that you would speak into it and bring hope, life and transformation today. Father, for the person who feels lonely, I thank you that you would be a comforter, Father, for the person who feels forgotten, I thank you, Father, that you're sending right relationships into their life. And God, for the person who's in a relationship and they don't know if it needs to end or not, would you send them confirmation? God, I thank you that you would use this platform to bring people ultimately closer to you because you should be everybody's number one relationship goal. Bless this station, bless these people, bless all of their families. And I thank you, Father God, for all you're doing in our lives. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. We love the Breakfast Club.
- [70:16]
C
Good morning.
- [70:16]
E
Hey, hold up. Every day I wake up.
- [70:19]
B
Wake your ass up.
- [70:20]
E
The Breakfast Club.
- [70:23]
A
This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.