← The Breakfast Club
The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Vivek Ramaswamy Talks DOGE, Elon Musk, Trump, Biden Pardons, Running For Governor of Ohio + More
01:08:30
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- [00:00]
Charlamagne tha God
Listen to me. This is Charlamagne tha God talking. If you're not on prime, you're missing out. Prime's not just fast free delivery, although that is definitely a big perk. It's a collection of excellent services that help you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Like right now I am really getting into past life regression therapy and there's so many books about it on Prime. So you can order books with prime or even listen to content on Amazon Music. Whether you're binge watching the latest on prime video, listening to music on Amazon Music or getting those last minute gifts dropped at your door with prime same day free delivery with prime customers get closer to what they care about. Whatever you're into, it's all on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime now.
- [00:38]
DJ Envy
Life is an act of constant reinvention. That's true for you and for cars. Nissan reimagined the all new Kicks around you. The Bose Personal plus sound system with speakers in the headrest keeps you in the groove, while The Nissan Safety Shield360 technologies keep you safe. If Nissan reinvented the Kicks, you can reinvent yourself. Drive the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks.
- [01:02]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Today available feature Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Nissan Safety Shield technologies can't prevent all collisions or worn in all situations. See Owner's Manual for important safety information.
- [01:12]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:51]
Nimini
Hey y'all, Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pir and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history.
- [02:05]
Vivek Ramaswamy
To life through Hip hop, Smash, Slam, Another one gone. Bash Bam.
- [02:11]
Charlamagne tha God
Another one gone.
- [02:11]
Vivek Ramaswamy
The Cracker, the bat and another one gone.
- [02:14]
Charlamagne tha God
The tip of the cap cause Another one gone.
- [02:16]
Nimini
Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15 year old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it and it began with me.
- [02:33]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Did you know?
- [02:34]
Nimini
Did you know I wouldn't give up my seat? Nine months before Rosa, it was Claudette Goldman. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to historical records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to historical records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [02:59]
Charlamagne tha God
Wake that ass up early in the morning.
- [03:01]
Vivek Ramaswamy
The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody.
- [03:05]
Laura
It's DJ Envy. Jess, Hilarious Charlamagne, the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. Laura filling in for Jess. And we got a special guest in the building.
- [03:12]
Charlamagne tha God
Yes, indeed, Vivek Ramswamy. Welcome.
- [03:14]
Vivek Ramaswamy
How you doing, man?
- [03:15]
Laura
How you feeling?
- [03:16]
Vivek Ramaswamy
You know, I would say pretty good, except for my 2 year old who usually sleeps really well when he comes to New York City. The kid does not sleep. And so when he doesn't sleep, my wife and I don't sleep. But other than that, you know. Yeah, he loves it here. He was, he was happy this morning, but 12:00am to about 4:00am yeah, we were up playing trucks, so man, but all good, doing well.
- [03:41]
Charlamagne tha God
This is your first interview in what you said, like a month.
- [03:43]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah, I've been, I haven't been, you know, a lot, lot going on, but haven't been out on media. But you know, people gonna be hearing more from me starting now. Why not? You called me over the weekend, I told you happened to be in the city, so this worked out well.
- [03:54]
Charlamagne tha God
Well, tell us, Vivek, what happened with Doge?
- [03:57]
Laura
Yeah, well, congratulations on the job.
- [03:59]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Thank you, man.
- [04:00]
Charlamagne tha God
I can't do it anymore.
- [04:01]
Vivek Ramaswamy
It's not my job right now I'm running. Take that back. Then I'm moving on to my next frontier.
- [04:06]
Charlamagne tha God
Did you get fired?
- [04:07]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Like why did you leave? No, it was a slightly different vision from where we started to where we landed. And it's not that it's one's right or wrong, but if you take a look at where we began. Right. Doge is going to be an outside body to the government. One of my core areas of focus throughout has been the constitutional and legal basis for shutting down the bureaucracy and the federal government and downsizing it. That's what I focused written my books on, et cetera. It evolved in more of a direction of a technology project using a technology first approach. And so Elon and I were on good terms. We have good personal relationship, slightly different approaches to the project. And what he and I both concluded, and I think this is right, is given my focus on law, on legislation, the right way to realize my vision is through elected office. And so that's what I'm gonna be pursuing. We have an announcement probably coming up in the next month, but that's my next path.
- [05:02]
Charlamagne tha God
The governor of Ohio, we heard about that.
- [05:03]
Vivek Ramaswamy
That's coming up soon. But that was where we all landed, was the right way to do this for me was if I'm focused on constitutional law, deregulation legislation to downsize government. That's been my vision for a long time. Let me realize that on my own two feet through elected office. At the same time, I'm happy to have helped over the last couple of months to be able to get. Get this off the ground and a technology first approach from within the government. Now it's not outside the government. It made all the sense in the world to make this the time that we went separate ways.
- [05:33]
Charlamagne tha God
So it was true. There was an exclusive report in the Washington Post that said you were pushed out because your vision didn't align with Elon.
- [05:39]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I would say that we arrived at it pretty mutually. I mean, I think when it came, the Doge was in the government. So there's actually a law. It's called the Hatch Act. It's boring stuff. But you literally can't run for office while you are an employee of the government unless you're the president or vice president. I've been committed to this path of likely running for governor of Ohio for a long time. My plan initially might have been to do those at the same time. Once it became clear that was impossible to do at the same time. Once it became clear to me that that was the right next step, leadership destination for me felt like the start of the project on day one was the right way to start that next chapter. That's why we did it.
- [06:15]
Laura
Now, you did say the last couple of months you've been focused on getting Trump in office.
- [06:19]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah.
- [06:19]
Laura
So now that he's in office and we've seen the last couple of days, what are your thoughts and do you still stand by it? Everything that he's done?
- [06:26]
Vivek Ramaswamy
You know, I really think he's off to a pretty good start. I mean, you think about most presidents, they take a little bit of time to get warmed up. He didn't go through the warmup phase. He got started right away. And I think there's a reason for that, which is very few presidents have actually been the president before, and then they come all the way back then. Grover Cleveland was the only one other one who did it. So he, in some ways, is coming in for a second term, but actually do think those Four years of being able to reflect on what actually mattered to him were actually pretty good. So I like. I like a lot of what we've seen in that first week. Unleash energy production. That's going to bring down energy prices, it's gonna stimulate the economy. A lot of the regulatory and red tape rollback, I think it's just a good thing for the country. If you travel the country and you ask most Americans, do you think there's too much red tape or do you think there's too little red tape? I don't think there's anybody who would tell you that I think there's too little red tape. I think there's a lot of people, especially business owners, small business owners, that tell you there's too much red tape. Trump has gone pretty aggressive even in the first week in saying, we're rolling back a lot of those regulations. We're rolling back the regulations that hold back energy production in the United States, getting very serious about the border. And, you know, I mean, I think that you can have your debates about what the legal immigration policy in the US should look like, but I think most people are united that we don't want an open southern border. And yet, functionally, that's what it's been for much of the last four years. So I think it's been a lot of pretty good moves out the gate. I'm pretty excited about it.
- [07:49]
Laura
What don't you like, if there's one thing that you didn't like that you've seen so far that he's done?
- [07:53]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So I will say in the first. In the first week out the gate, I like pretty much everything I've seen. I think that there are some areas where I could imagine over the next year I might have some shades of difference in opinion. There's really nothing in that first week. All of this stuff struck me as very common sense. And when you think about what's going to actually make people's lives better, that's where I'm focused. Okay, economically, in terms of reducing crime, in terms of fixing our border, what do people across the country actually care about affecting their lives? I think it'd be pretty hard to pick something that in that first week that I would say wasn't strictly good for the country.
- [08:29]
Charlamagne tha God
How is eliminating government diversity programs like DEI beneficial to anybody other than straight white males?
- [08:34]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Oh, I think there are some ways in which it's not even beneficial to straight white males, which I'll tell you about in a second. But I think this culture of reviving merit in the country is a very American idea. You and I have talked about this in some of our. Some of our discussions here in the past. I think is America is a country where you are not judged on the color of your skin. You ought to be judged on the content of your character and your contributions. The best person ought to get the job, regardless of their genetics. That's America at its best. We haven't always been that. You could argue that we've never actually been that perfectly. We're an imperfect nation because we're comprised of human beings and not gods. But I do think it is a step forward to say that after we've turned the page on 160 years ago, and then 60 years ago with the civil rights revolution, after we've made all the progress we have, now's a time not to engage in blaming for the past or whatever, we haven't been perfect, but to move forward to say we're a country where we want the best person to get the job without regard to their skin color or their sexuality or their race. Why don't we. And the only thing I would tell you that you might be interested in for the angle you mentioned is I also think there has been a culture emerging in the last few years, a culture of excuses amongst people who say, oh, I didn't get that job because of dei. And in certain cases that may be true that certain people, maybe a white male was denied a job because somebody else got the job because of racial or gender preferences. But there's also a lot of instances in which that provides somebody else a new excuse. And I just want to know, excuses culture across the board where one of the side effects of ending DEI is that nobody's gonna have excuses anymore for why they didn't get that job either.
- [10:15]
Charlamagne tha God
That's not true.
- [10:16]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So I just think merit across the board is the way to go.
- [10:18]
Charlamagne tha God
But do you trust people, though? Like, do you trust people enough to say, hey, you know what? I'm not going to be prejudiced against this person because of their identity.
- [10:25]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I mean, we all have. Let me say something. We all have our innate biases, right? We're human beings. As I said, we're human beings. We're not gods. We're flawed. And people have their innate biases. But the question is, is there a perfect system? No, there's not. But what's the least imperfect system? And I think the least imperfect system is one where we aspire to at least think of our country through the lens of merit. And what is Merit. I mean I bandied this word around a lot. I actually got a tough question when I read for president as a college kid. I was talking about waxing eloquent about merit from the stage. He said, what is merit? What is meritocracy? Made me think for a second. You have to define what you're talking about. I think a meritocracy is a system that recognizes that not everybody has the same God given talents. In fact, it recognizes that everyone has different God given talents. That's true diversity, that's a beautiful thing. But a meritocracy is one that says whatever your unique God given talents are, you get to achieve the maximum of your potential without any system standing in your way. To me, that's America at its best. And so are we gonna be perfect as human beings in realizing that idea? Of course not, cuz we're human beings. But does that mean that we shouldn't at least do our best to design systems that aspire to it? No, I think that a step forward is. And I'm done, I'm mostly, I'd like to be mostly done. I think I am done with the DEI debates. I think we've turned the debate, turned the page on that. I'm interested in a forward looking conversation about what does equal opportunity actually look like. Right. I think that in the debates we've had about equal opportunity versus equal results. The DEI side of this often has fallen in the equal results camp and people would say, oh well, we want equal opportunity. And that was a conservative response. But now we have to confront the hard work of what does that actually look like? What actually does equality of opportunity, which everyone acknowledges doesn't exist today. How do we actually do that hard work? And I think that that's a good result of going past the group quota DEI regime to have an honest conversation about the fact that we don't have equal opportunity across the country. Early education. Do we have equal opportunity when it's public schools organized according to zip codes? Rather than actually giving every kid access to the best education they can have? That's not equal opportunity. But we haven't been able to have that conversation. Cause we're having the cosmetic discussion about DEI or quotas or whatever. Now that we're done with that, that hard work can begin across the board. And I think that that's a conversation where a lot of thoughtful voices on the left and right can now roll up our sleeves and say we've preached the message of equal opportunity. How do we actually get there? And I for 1am game for that discussion.
- [13:06]
Charlamagne tha God
You don't think the EI was a way to get there? You don't think that?
- [13:09]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I think it has proven not to be the way to get there. I've obviously been an opponent of it for four or five years, so I'm obviously gonna have biased views on this from where I sit.
- [13:16]
Charlamagne tha God
But what is it exactly? The policy. Because you need diversity to get there. You need equ, you need inclusion to get there.
- [13:23]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yes. So I think part of what happened is when you, when you started using the capital D, capital E, capital I. Here's what happened is I think in the name of diversity of thought, right, because that's where you want diversity of thought in an organization. The capital D diversity actually ended up saying that certain viewpoints aren't welcome, that we actually sacrifice true diversity of thought in the name of equity, which is measured in terms of outcomes. I think we actually sacrificed true equality of opportunity. And then at a certain place, and this is really where it took a dark turn to me is in the name of inclusion, we created a culture of exclusion where certain viewpoints were not welcome in an organization. And what that does is it causes the bottled up emotion to fester. Okay, that doesn't lead to good places. When you tell somebody, shut up, sit down, do as you're told, keep your views to yourself. That actually fosters resentment. And the weirdest thing I think has happened in the last few years, and I do actually blame a lot of the DEI and related policies for this, is that we have seen a reactionary wave of racism in the country. Anti minority racism that would not have existed but for that DEI culture of not only taking something away from somebody based on their skin color, but even worse, in the name of inclusion, saying that you can't express your view. And then there's an ugly side that comes out in response. I don't want this game of tug and war where the war continues, just everybody lay down arms. Are we perfect? No, we're not. But whatever residual racism or prejudice might exist, let it slowly melt away as we've been on the course for the last 60 years of heading in the right direction. And then let's have a substantive. I think we've been in the right direction, obviously compared to 1960. I don't think that's really debatable. We were so, so now we're having a healthy discussion where I think, you know, I think that the rise of even well intentioned DEI programs, even from those who had the best of intentions, I think did in Retrospect, I think we can say set us back, not.
- [15:20]
Charlamagne tha God
The rise of MAGA and Trump's executive orders from last week.
- [15:23]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I think Trump's executive orders from last week were about, with this, what we're talking about. So it's a circle here, which is, does ending the DI programs, do we think that's a step forward for the country or not? I think is a step forward for the country. Is that the destination? No, it's just the beginning of a real discussion about equal opportunity that lifts all Americans up.
- [15:39]
DJ Envy
Why would you have a conversation about equal opportunity if they don't even want to have a conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion? Conclusion. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, I understand where you're trying to go with it, but you can't have one without the other, I think is the point. And how do you do that? It seems like that's your disconnect even with Doge, right?
- [15:52]
Vivek Ramaswamy
No, I think a couple different. Couple different topics there. Look, are we a country where we want equal opportunity for every person to achieve the maximum of their God given potential? Yes, we do. Are we perfect in realizing that? No, we're not. Do we think that group quota systems are the right way to achieve that? I'm of the view the answer is no. And I think the last few years show us that it hasn't even been effective in actually empowering the people it was supposed to empower, while it's created resentment of a lot of the people who felt deprived. So I think we just got.
- [16:22]
Charlamagne tha God
I don't disagree with that last one.
- [16:22]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We just got to go to post. We got to go to post. DI world, that ship, in my opinion, for the better. Maybe in other people's opinion for the worse. That ship has sailed. Now let's look to the future and say, what does equal opportunity actually look like? I'll give you one of the areas I'm most passionate about. I think equal opportunity to a high quality early education makes a difference. There's a lot of focus on college and what the college composition needs to be. You miss the boat if you're doing this after somebody's already 18 years old. And in 12th grade the cake is baked. This starts young. I mean, early childhood achievement trajectories are set in preschool, set in first grade, set in second grade. There's a massive disparity set at that point in time based on the quality of schools that somebody in an inner city is relegated to because they don't have the choice for better opportunities versus somebody who's in a suburb with a better public school or access to a private school, that is an injustice. I think anybody who's really concerned with true equality of opportunity in this country that's not dealing with that problem doesn't actually care. It's just they want to pontificate. I don't have a lot of patience for that. So I think that, you know, it becomes a buzzword that goes in one ear, out the other when you say it this way. But universal school choice, it's like people hear those buzzwords, but when you think about what that means, it means every kid, no matter their skin color or what neighborhood they're born in, has at least the opportunity to get the best possible education. Some of this stuff gets boring. And part of, part of the people is people don't have patience for the boring stuff. But the boring stuff is what matters. Even summer break, not even a very political topic. Right. Summer break, especially early on, is something that actually causes the educational achievement gap to widen because people who are from well to do families tend to have programs that enrich their kids. And so there's a well known phenomenon where when you come back in the fall, you have some regress for the kid. That regress is small or non existent for people who can actually afford the right kind of summer programs or educational programs for those three months. For kids who come from poorer communities, it's massive. Multiply that 12 times over by the time you get to 12th grade. You have just different levels of preparedness. I don't care what kind of quota system an Ivy League university establishes. That's not really establishing true equality. Because some of the same people who are admitted to those programs are doing no better when they then enter the workforce. Because a lot of this traced back to equality or inequality of opportunity at a really young age. And by the way, all against the backdrop of a lot of people don't pay attention to this. Actually, I'll just ask you a question. Just. You have no reason to know the answer to this. I've studied this. But what percentage of 8th graders in the United States today are proficient in math according to international standards? What's that at eighth grade level? Eighth grade level? Yeah. In eighth grade, what are, what percentage of eighth graders are performing at what should be an eighth grade level according to international developed world standards?
- [19:08]
Laura
62%.
- [19:09]
Vivek Ramaswamy
25%. 25% in the United States. So that's just unacceptable. So we're talking about equality issues now. Let's just zoom out and talk about overall achievement issues. Our educational system is not working, there is a deep failure and we can debate the causes. And I agree with that. Yeah, well, and people, you know, I think can, can often get a little bit upset. I've had the experience of people getting upset when you, when you confront these questions. But I care about this country too much to just look passively at that and look the other way because it doesn't make people feel good. And you know, a classic response is to blame a lot of that on woke indoctrination or whatever. And I'm against all of the woke indoctrination at a young age. But that's not the real issue here. The real issue is just an achievement problem in the United States. And that doesn't start in high school, it doesn't start in college, it starts young. And so I just see an opportunity right now where we can make the choice to enter a new golden age in America.
- [20:02]
Charlamagne tha God
Well, you shot.
- [20:02]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We can make a choice to say this is our Sputnik moment. Right. You look at just the news of today. I don't know how much you've taken a look at it, but deep seek coming out of China, right. It's completely mopped the floor with respect to the cost by which they were able to get to apparently similar, maybe even if not in some ways better AI production than a lot of capital that's gone in to achieve the same thing for computing power investment in the US These are good opportunities for us not to be ashamed or to be angry, but to wake up and say we should have the humility to admit that we still have room for improvement. I say this as somebody who believes this is the greatest country known to the history of mankind. It is the only country I will ever pledge allegiance to. It is the country I will die fighting for if I have to. But we should still, out of our love for this country, have the ability to have humility to say, okay, here are the ways we still need to improve. And frankly, I don't think that that's a, that's not a preaching to the left or to the right. I think it's just a wake up call for all of us. And that's kind of what I'm interested in delivering.
- [21:09]
DJ Envy
I think people just get nervous when there's no systems in place like what DEI should have been if it was done the right way. Because then there's. You think that there's going to be no trickle down because what you're talking about to affect people before they get to eighth grade. You have to have People that were able to go to these schools, were able to have these certain experiences, come back to the communities, teach, build different administrators. Like, there's a whole, like, system that people think won't fall back down.
- [21:29]
Charlamagne tha God
You can't trust white supremacy.
- [21:30]
DJ Envy
Yeah. So it's like even, even with you, like with the Doge thing, right. And you backing away now, me listening to you, I'm like, oh, it sounds like y'all didn't agree because morally you want to do right. I don't know if I believe that Elon Musk and a Trump cabinet wants to do that.
- [21:42]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, on that front, let me just say I think we all share an opposition to bureaucracy. And by the way, you think about how bureaucracy hurts even the least well off among us, it actually hurts the least well off among us the most. I don't want to get too much in details unless you're interested in this, but take housing costs in the country, right. Why are housing costs spiking? It's because of bureaucracy and red tape that's stopping new housing construction. There's all these zoning limitations. There's all kinds of limitations for single family homes, for smaller homes. It's really hard to build one. And a lot of that comes from regulatory red tape. So on the stuff relating to cutting back red tape and bureaucracy and regulations, I don't view that as a left versus right issue. In fact, one of the things I loved in the, in the time period that I was helpful involving setting up Doge was how many Democrats also said, hey, you know what? There's actually a lot of issues that we care about where bureaucracy is getting in the way as well. That raised their hand. So that, I think is just a strictly good efficiency and elimination of bureaucracy, I think is good across the board. As it relates to getting serious, though, about addressing root inequality causes in the United States, I think a lot of people enjoy being on one political side or the other without actually rolling up their sleeves and doing the hard work of getting to the root cause. I think the root cause starts with education at a really young age and a stable family foundation from which those kids are able to grow up and have access to the same opportunities as anybody else. And if you got to a place where every kid at the age of four, I'm not even talking about the age of 10, in some sense it's already, it's already partially baked by then. But at the age of four, when they enter preschool, has a chance to enter the best possible school that somebody else would have to enter, but they have to pay the actual tuition to get there. I think we've made massive progress towards restoring true equality of opportunity in the U.S. what does that mean? That means that literally you have to provide money to the families who are stuck in a bad public school to be able to opt out of that school. Transportation included, the ability to pay tuition included. That is an investment that we make both in the overall future of our country and in equality of opportunity. I think we should be more vocal about standing for that. I certainly, for one, plan to be. By the way, a lot of this is done not at the federal level. A lot of this is done at the state level, which gives you a sense of where. Part of the reason I've been drawn in my own journey to say if I actually care about addressing these issues and not talking about them, there's actually a lot more than a governor is able to accomplish on a practical level than even somebody sitting at the federal level. And so that's part of what I feel.
- [24:14]
Charlamagne tha God
Are you able to have these conversations, though? Because, I mean, you know, you do get to the root of these issues, but when you tried to do it and you criticize the US for its cultural emphasis on mediocrity over excellence. Maggie. And conservatives lost their mind. And a lot of people say that's the reason you got pushed out of doch.
- [24:29]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah. So I will tell you this is I would rather speak the truth and lose than to pander to an audience to tell them what they want to hear. It's like an old expression. They might have been Thomas Sowell who said this. Actually, you know him, very smart man. I think he's the one who said this. If you care about somebody, you tell them the truth. If you care about yourself, you tell them what they want to hear. I would rather speak hard truth and take the chance of losing an election than to somehow win by just saying what you're supposed to say. Now, my view on this is America is an excellent country. I mean, America is defined by the pursuit of excellence. And it's an interesting question about American identity. Right. If you go to Italy, what's the Italian identity? It's the heritage of people who grew up in Italy or Japan. It's the heritage of people who grew up in Japan. There's a language that binds them, a unique language of Italian or Japanese. And that's a beautiful thing. But what's America in that context? Right. What is the American identity? I don't think it comes down to the national identities of other countries of a cuisine or an ethnic lineage even. Our land is relatively different. Right. Our land today is very different than it was just 250 years ago, than it was even 160 years ago. Then we added Alaska. Then we added Hawaii. Maybe we're going to add some more soon. So I think that America is not defined in the same way that other countries are. I think America is defined foremost based on the set of ideals that bind all of us together despite our different genetics. That's what makes America special. And one of those ideals is the pursuit of excellence. The idea that you are able to achieve whatever you want without any government or bureaucracy standing in your way, that the best person gets the job, that you get to speak your mind in the open without somebody telling you you can't speak your mind. Those are the ideals that make America itself.
- [26:23]
Charlamagne tha God
We don't live up to them, though.
- [26:25]
Vivek Ramaswamy
What's that?
- [26:25]
Charlamagne tha God
We don't live up to them often.
- [26:26]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We often don't live. Of course not. But I would rather live in a country that has ideals and fall short of them than a country that has no ideals at all. Right. So you could say we're a hypocrite. You can only be a hypocrite if you have ideals. So I would rather as a nation, be hypocritical and have ideals rather than not have ideals and therefore not be a hypocrite. Right. And so that's a tough message, and it lands in different directions, Right. My, my. I would go so far as to call it. My battle against the Woke left four years ago was a tough message, and people on the other side had resistance to that message of what I still consider to be tough love, but love at the core of it. I'd say the same thing with respect to my more recent commentary here. It comes from a place of love for this country, and I love this country too much.
- [27:11]
Charlamagne tha God
You talking about your H1B tweets?
- [27:12]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, I didn't talk about. I mean, that was talking about American excellence, Right. About the idea that. I do think we need to light a fire under the feet of our culture. Right. I do think we need to light a fire and celebrate excellence in every domain, by the way, not just. Not just academics, sports, music, the arts, but to celebrate winning, to celebrate the person who is a striver. I don't think it should be a bad thing in America to be a striver. Right. That word has a negative connotation to it a little bit today. Our founding fathers were strivers. Our culture was built by strivers. Right. Neil Armstrong and John Glenn. The people from my home state went to outer space at the frontier. We are a culture of strivers, the best athletes. I mean, look at the legacy of Michael Jordan. He was a guy who worked hard and was unapologetic about the fact that he wanted to win and would do whatever is required to work hard to do it. Same thing with respect to our engineering talent. That's the culture that I think we can revive in this country. I think it's necessary to revive in this country if we're going to compete against China. It's like a parent. When you're talking to your kids, sometimes the message you deliver is not well received when they hear it, but it comes from a place of love.
- [28:14]
Charlamagne tha God
But MAGA and conservatives didn't want to hear that at all. And it seems like when you chastise others for cultural concerns, it's widely accepted. But when you attack Saved by the Bell in white culture, you got sidelines.
- [28:25]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I'll tell you, this is, I'm consistent, 360 degrees is what I'll give you on that.
- [28:30]
Charlamagne tha God
You're shocked by the response. You're taking aback. Like, damn.
- [28:36]
Vivek Ramaswamy
You know, if I think about it, I've been around American politics for a little bit. Did I know the message that I was delivering was going to make some people upset? I did. My goal was not to make people upset for the sake of making people upset. My goal is looking at our country and saying, how do we light a fire under the feet of our nation? To be able to aspire, to be the very best again and to do it consistently, as you said. You know, I've talked to the woke left for years and if I put the word woke in that, you know, message several times, many of the people, same people were cheering for a long time. When I deliver the same message in a different way, I'm just against victimhood culture across the board. We're not a nation of victims.
- [29:16]
Charlamagne tha God
Even when the victims are MAGA and conservatives. Cause they were acting like victims. When you put the.
- [29:19]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Look, I'm against, I'm against any kind of victimhood most, most of the time for the last four years, if I'm being honest, I think the dominant strain of victimhood has been a left wing victimhood. But there is. I wrote a book called Nation of Victims a few years ago that had a chapter called Conservative Victimhood. We're not a nation of victims. We are victors, not victims. That's who we are at our very best. That's the American way. And I do think that when you think about what are those American qualities? Hard work, self determination, self reliance, not victimhood, culture that gives you a greater claim on the government. And you could see this across the political spectrum. I don't think that we win this country back by greater dependence on our government. We win this country back by greater independence from it through reviving our self confidence to stand on our own two feet, to teach our kids. The way you get ahead isn't to see yourself as a victim and to play that as a card that gets you ahead, but instead to see yourself as a winner and somebody who isn't gonna be bullied by your circumstances. The number one person. What would I tell my kids, right? The number one person or the number one factor that determines whether you achieve your goals in life. Not saying it's the only one, but the number one factor that determines whether you achieve what you want in life is you. Is you.
- [30:29]
Laura
Let me ask you.
- [30:30]
Vivek Ramaswamy
No doubt about it. And so it's not. It's not your race or your gender or your sexuality or the climate or the weather or somebody from some other country. It is you.
- [30:38]
Charlamagne tha God
All those things will play a part.
- [30:39]
Vivek Ramaswamy
But I agree, yeah, I didn't say it didn't play a part, but I said the number one is you. And so that's. That's the culture where. Whether it's. In some ways it was the same message delivered slightly differently and got a very different reaction. But I believe I have been deeply consistent in delivering this message for a long time. And the reason why is. And by the way, just since you brought up H1B, H1B is a broken system. Right? So the funny thing about this, people say, oh, why didn't you criticize H1B in his tweet? I've been saying this about a hundred times, maybe for the last couple years, probably hundreds of times. It's broken in a bunch of boring ways. They use a lottery instead of picking the very best ones. It's got an indentured servitude problem where if a company sponsors you and you come from another country, you can't leave that company, so you don't actually have a competitive labor market. All those things need to be fixed. And I have been, I would argue, among the biggest proponents, if not the biggest voice in favor of fixing those things. But that's a technical issue about fixing some H1B system. But the deeper question is, are we a country that believes America ought to be number one, that we want the best people in this country, cultivate it in a homegrown way, and then to fill the gaps with the best and brightest from the rest of the world as well. To come here and be Americans and pledge allegiance to this country. Of course, that's us.
- [31:57]
Laura
Of course we want the best. But let me ask you, what were your thoughts on, and you claim to be an honest person.
- [32:03]
Jon Stewart
What were your thoughts?
- [32:03]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I claim to be an honor like that.
- [32:04]
Laura
When Donald Trump signed off on the people that tried to overthrow the government.
- [32:08]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Signed off, pardon them, pardon them, pardon them. So no, sick, here's my view.
- [32:12]
Laura
And then I want to ask you, what did you think when Joe Biden pardoned his son and his family members as well? So let's start with Trump.
- [32:18]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So here's my view.
- [32:19]
Laura
They tried to overthrow the government, which is totally against law.
- [32:22]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So let's talk about turning the page. I'll give, I'll give you, I'll give it to you, give it to you straight. Okay. I think that there were many people, this is a rabbit hole. We could have an hour on this. And I don't really, I don't really think it's even all that relevant anymore. There were a lot of people who didn't do a thing that was wrong that ended up being ensnared in getting locked up, getting prosecuted for peacefully without any weapons, exercising their First Amendment rights. And as a country, we're a country that celebrates political dissent and opposition. People who never entered the Capitol, people who never hurt anybody, people who were unarmed walking on the Capitol grounds. And it was just sloppy the way the whole thing was. Peaceful protesters. Yeah. And I think that those kind of peaceful protesters, the fact that they were ensnared and had their due process rights denied is an affront. And I say that as somebody who, I'm a civil libertarian, I believe the same is true for left wing protesters. I think the same thing has been true for civil rights protesters 60 years ago. I think the same thing was true for peaceful protesters on January 6th.
- [33:23]
Laura
Now the other side.
- [33:24]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So then when you, when you look at, when you look at it holistically, right, it was so messy in the way that it was handled. There were so many also unanswered questions and some stuff that didn't smell great. Like if you look at the first thing that came out from the inspector general's report, only came out a few weeks, a couple weeks before Trump took office, how many FBI informants and affiliated people were in that audience? It didn't smell good. And that came out, you said that two years ago. That was considered a bad Conspiracy theory. But now they, they came out with the inspector general report saying that they weren't transparent with the public. There was enough that the government did that smelled rotten there, that in the interest of just turning the page, you know what I think would have been the best outcome for the country? Here's, here's something that would have been the best outcome. But I think we got to a second best outcome. I said this before Biden left office. I think if Joe Biden had not pardoned his family member, but had pardoned the January six protesters in one of his final acts, to say that I've been critical of this, but in the interest of moving the country forward, as I'm leaving the office, I'm turning the page and looking to the future. And then Donald Trump takes office and pardons the Biden family for any alleged offenses. That would have been, I think, the best case scenario for the country.
- [34:37]
Charlamagne tha God
Yeah, but all the generators.
- [34:38]
Vivek Ramaswamy
But people, some of them were insurrectionists.
- [34:41]
Charlamagne tha God
And I mean, there's actual people who are denying pardons because they said, no, we committed a crime.
- [34:45]
DJ Envy
Yes. There was a woman who did a whole sit down interview, said we did really horrible things, people died.
- [34:50]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I heard her, I heard her interview.
- [34:51]
DJ Envy
And so to that you will say there were people who were peaceful.
- [34:54]
Laura
I watched it while I was, the decision seemed peaceful. But then we seen people that hopped the gates, ran up in there running. And in people's offices, we see them as well.
- [34:59]
Charlamagne tha God
I think J.D. vance had the best reason. And when J.D. vance said, and this is before Trump did the pardons, he said that we're going to look at every, we're not going to pardon all the January 6th insurrectionists. We're going to look at it on a case by case.
- [35:10]
Vivek Ramaswamy
He's a case by case.
- [35:11]
Charlamagne tha God
And see who needs to be pardoned and who doesn't.
- [35:13]
Vivek Ramaswamy
And that's what I had said for the last couple of years as well. I do think that when we're also moving quickly with respect to Trump talking about a new golden age for the country, that's what we all want. Right. We want a country where the issues we're focused on is what affects people in their everyday lives. The, the conversation about lifting people up economically and educationally, I think it is in that spirit to say that we're just turning the page and moving the nation forward. I understand the decision to do it not on a case by case basis, but on a blanket basis. I understand what was coming.
- [35:43]
Charlamagne tha God
Sexual criminals, like one of the guys.
- [35:44]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Got out and went right back to Jail, by definition. Just so we're talking about the same thing. By definition, anybody who gets a pardon is getting a pardon, many of them. Anybody who gets a pardon after a conviction means they were convicted. Right? So there are hundreds of presidential pardons. Biden issued most more pardons any president has in his final month leaving office. Every president issues pardons. But part of the reason the president has a pardon power is the job of the president is actually to look after the country. The job of a jury and a judge in a case is to look after that individual case. But a president is a steward of a country and to say what's in the best overall interest of the country. That's why the president has a pardon power. So everybody who a president has ever pardoned is by definition a criminal. The question is, even in the face of somebody being a criminal, by definition of having committed some crime, take a big step back and say, notwithstanding that, is it in the interest of a nation to be able to pardon that person and move forward? That's the judgment that belongs on a president's shoulders. And when you look at the agenda that President Trump wants to pursue, and he wants to be ambitious about that and say, I just want to turn the page on the past and move forward, I understand that decision. And I think that looking at a case by case would have been a reasonable approach. I think that going blanket pardon and turning the page is also a reasonable approach. But what I do believe is that we're not gonna see. I'm gonna make this claim right now, and I think I will be proven right. I certainly hope I'm gonna be proven right, and I expect I will. There was a lot of fear mongering over the last couple of years, and some people still have the fear that, okay, Donald Trump is gonna go after his political opponents and whatever. I can tell you solidly, that just ain't gonna happen. And you can roast me a year from now if we're wrong about that. It's not gonna happen. Well, give it a minute. I don't know. And I think that that's the spirit of that decision. All that fits together is to say we've had a kind of a toxic chapter over the last four years. As a country. You have a guy who is. All kinds of unprecedented things have happened, right? Who himself was the subject of four prosecutions by the government, had been censored before that while he was leaving office, and the president of the United States couldn't even speak. All of that. Let's not really negate it, let's turn the page, let's move forward. And I think that is something that if we stay true to that promise, everybody can get behind. And I will tell you that a lot of, lot of people earnestly have the fear. I could say it's created by the media or whatever, but to say that, oh, now Donald Trump's going to prosecute his political opponents. No, it's not going to work that way. The way it's going to work is we're moving forward to say what actually lifts up all Americans. It's part of why you had a coalition, which I thought was pretty cool this time around. You got a lot of former independents, black voters, Hispanic voters, first generation Americans. It was a different kind of coalition. It wasn't yesterday's Republican Party that I hope gives us a shot at unifying the country. Gives us the best shot I think we've had in a long time. I'd love to see it.
- [38:27]
Charlamagne tha God
Let's talk about stuff like how do you advocate for ending birthright citizenship when both your parents were illegal and non citizens were legal? They were legal.
- [38:37]
Vivek Ramaswamy
They were legal. Okay.
- [38:38]
Charlamagne tha God
But they were non citizens, though.
- [38:40]
Vivek Ramaswamy
That's right.
- [38:40]
Charlamagne tha God
That's right.
- [38:40]
Vivek Ramaswamy
When they came to country. Yeah. So my view, and I've been pretty consistent on this, is that birthright citizenship should not be granted to the kids of illegals in this country. What does birthright citizenship mean? Just to get everyone on the same page, it means if you're physically born in the country, you're automatically a citizen. And that's been part of the long standing tradition of the country within certain guardrails. So I'll give you one that nobody contests. Let's say you're the kid of a Mexican diplomat. All right, so it's a guy who's legally, physically in the country, but he is the ambassador from Mexico or Panama or whatever country to the U.S. they happen to have a baby while they're here. Is that baby a citizen of the United States? Nobody thinks the answer to that is yes. If you're a diplomat from Mexico or a government official from another country, but physically the baby happens to be born here, you're still a citizen of another country. And goes to the 14th Amendment, it says, are you subject to the laws and jurisdiction thereof? Then you're a citizen. That's what it says. So by similar analogy, if somebody who's an ambassador from Mexico or is in this country legally but doesn't enjoy birthright citizenship because they're still subject to the laws and jurisdiction of the other country, then the question is if somebody entered this country illegal, or let's just say take another one, if somebody's a foreign invader to the country. Right. Let's say you have a foreign invasion of the country, but includes a pregnant woman and she happens to have a baby here, nobody thinks that baby enjoys birthright citizenship. So then the question is, if somebody broke the law when entering the country. Right. That their, their act of entering the country was a violation of our laws, are they really subject to the jurisdiction and law? In the same way, if they have their kid in the country, that kid does not automatically enjoy birthright citizenship. That's been my position. I think it's a reasonable position.
- [40:17]
DJ Envy
But why is it that, why is it that moving forward, you would want an administration to pick and choose like when they give opportunities, like, so, for instance, like, what if I'm here illegally? I have my kid here legally. No, I'm here illegally. Okay, yeah. Hypothetically, if I'm here illegally, right. I did whatever I had to do to get here just because of whatever my circumstances are. I'm not committing crimes while I'm here. I'm working the best I can, just trying to raise my kid. My kid is doing amazing. I'm providing a better life. Right. And then all of a sudden now because Trump is in office, it's like, no, my kid has to go back to whatever circumstances we came from. Not too much set up because they're no longer a citizen.
- [40:50]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So one of the things, if you look at President Trump's recent commentary and some of his interviews even leading up to taking office, he himself has drawn a distinction between people who have been here for a really long time and established roots versus people who have come super recently to the country. Right. In the Dreamers program, you talked about how people have been here for a long time. We can have our own debates about what my own views even are on that. But let's just take start with the easy, low hanging fruit. If somebody's a criminal, should they be. If somebody commits a crime while they're here and they're entered illegally, should they be automatically deported? And then we just go straight down the list.
- [41:22]
Laura
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Vivek Ramaswamy
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- [43:20]
Arturo Castro
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- [44:42]
Vivek Ramaswamy
People are forming opinions of you even before you log into the zoom or walk into the room. And so you really have to think about, what is it I want to display? You don't plant a garden and then just walk away and expect it to thrive. You are in there pulling out the weeds. You're pruning it, you're watering it. It's the same thing with your network. You should always be in there actively managing your network.
- [45:02]
Arturo Castro
If you don't feel confident to say.
- [45:03]
Vivek Ramaswamy
A number, even admitting that to a recruiter is going to be far better than saying, well, what is your budget for the role? A lot is in the follow up, Right? Don't wait to follow up.
- [45:12]
Arturo Castro
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- [45:25]
DJ Envy
Not gonna argue that point because that's like, that's kind of like.
- [45:27]
Vivek Ramaswamy
That's a lot of people.
- [45:27]
DJ Envy
That's an easy point, though. I know. I think where I'm getting confused with you is, like, you, if it's a.
- [45:31]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Few years, I would say the same thing. So if somebody has come here and it hasn't been that long, so we're talking about, you know, double digit millions of people who have come here illegally under Biden's tenure. Those people have not established roots in the United States.
- [45:43]
DJ Envy
Right.
- [45:44]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Those people should have followed a different route. And by the way, there are millions more who didn't come here, who did not come here illegally because they were trying to do it the right way. They're the ones we kept out and the ones who lied or broke the rules are the ones who we let in. That's not right.
- [45:58]
DJ Envy
Right.
- [45:59]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So I think that sending all of the people who at least entered illegally under Biden's tenure just recently, even if you just take even the last two years, that is millions of people. So even if we just said over the last 18 months, the people who entered this country illegally have to go back to their country of origin, they haven't established roots in 18 months. That alone would be the largest mass deportation in American history. Now, you wanna go beyond that? We could argue the details, but that alone is literally the largest mass deportation in American history. And I think most people are in favor of it to say that that's fair.
- [46:27]
Charlamagne tha God
So why are House Republicans divided on this? Because it seems weird that you would wanna fight the end birthright citizenship now, especially when you've made so many strides with Hispanic voters.
- [46:36]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So I'm not following necessarily what the House Republicans are divided on per se, but what I will tell you is I think most people if explained, right, Because I think the problem with this is it can become a pretty emotional conversation. If you just objectively look at the low hanging fruit that we all agree with, that's actually pretty far from where we are today. If you look at somebody who entered this country illegally, does their kid automatically get birthright citizenship going forward? We can't even change the past, right? Because those were the rules of the past. But at least going forward we will say that anybody new who entered this country illegally and their kids born here doesn't enjoy birthright citizenship without even a change to the past. I think most people agree with that. Somebody who entered in the last 18 months, pretty recent, when you send them back, it's millions of people illegally, should they go back to the country?
- [47:20]
Charlamagne tha God
So this is for the illegals abusing birthright citizenship. That's what, that's what you're.
- [47:23]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I mean, I think, I think somebody who comes here illegally and has a kid here, that kid should not enjoy birthright citizenship, especially if the government has said so. Okay, so in the past you could say it was vague, that's a separate debate. But going forward, to lay the marker down and say going forward from this date forward, somebody who enters the country illegally and has a kid here, that kid does not automatically enjoy birthright citizenship, I think is a very reasonable position.
- [47:46]
Charlamagne tha God
So wouldn't that be you though?
- [47:47]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Since your parents were non citizens, they were legal. So it's one thing if you apply to the government, you follow the legal process, there's a lot of paperwork involved, there's a vetting and I'm saying that's a separate point in the deportations. So on the deportations, let's just start there, okay? If you look at how many people came into this country illegally, illegally in the last 18 months, okay, the last year and a half of Biden's 10 year alone, that is millions, not a million, millions of people. There's no argument to be made that those people have somehow established roots in the country in 18 months or in two years, if every one of those people were returned to their country of origin. Respectfully, you're not trying to mistreat anybody or anything else but in a respectful, humane manner is returned to their country of origin. That alone would be the largest mass deportation in American history by far. Going forward, you send the signal that we're not open for illegal immigration anymore. And this is not dehumanizing anybody. Frankly, if any of us were in the position of somebody sitting in Guatemala or Venezuela or Colombia and the US Government's giving you a wink and a nod, who knows, maybe many of us would do the same thing to have a better life for our family. So I'm not blaming anybody other than the US government. But now the US government can be clear to say that no, we're not open for illegal entry. We have a sealed border. There's no funding for sanctuary cities, there's no welfare or benefits for people who enter this country illegally. And if you enter illegally, you will be returned to your country of origin. What's gonna happen is you're gonna see a lot fewer people even trying to come.
- [49:17]
Laura
What if your country's not accepting you back like we've seen in Mexico?
- [49:20]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We've seen in Mexico. I think those countries need to start accepting them back. And that's where the US has leverage to say that we all gotta the same set of rules here. Cuz a lot of those countries, for example in Central America, right, there's this area called the Darien Pass, it's like a jungle area which used to be closed. Now there's a massive northward flow of migrants. Many of those countries are recipients of U.S. foreign aid. What does that mean? It means we're literally given our taxpayer money as aid, just as a check to those countries. It's a free check, Free money to those countries. I don't think we should be giving free money to those countries unless they're also, at minimum doing their part to also seal their border. So we have levers to be able to have a reasonable discussion with other countries. And I think that that's something, I don't mean to be overly partisan about this, but I think that was something we're missing under the Biden years, which is that we kind of were just jelly spined with other countries, right? We let other countries walk all over us.
- [50:11]
Charlamagne tha God
I agree with you.
- [50:12]
Vivek Ramaswamy
And I don't think that standing for American interests, and by the way, American interest doesn't mean some segment of America. People agree with me. I'm talking about all Americans interests, regardless of skin color, regardless of political affiliation. If you're American, we're gonna stand for your interest. Cuz that's what an elected leader of the United States has a responsibility to do not give away your taxpayer money when we're $36 trillion of debt in the hole to some other country that isn't even doing what they're supposed to do with respect to blocking their own borders on the way to the United States. That doesn't make sense. So I think that a lot of this is common sense. A restoration of common sense is the path back to American greatness.
- [50:44]
Charlamagne tha God
I agree with what you said about people being jelly spined under the Biden administration, but do you think it's smart for Trump to start a trade war on day six?
- [50:53]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So the thing to understand about Donald Trump, if you look at his first term, the thing I love about the second term is you don't have to do a lot of guessing about Donald Trump like you would with the new president. You had a first term. He is a tough negotiator on the international stage. Right. And so I believe there's probably three camps on this issue of tariffs. If this gets too. We want to switch the subject anytime, let me know. But this is worth probably going into one. Is that I think a silly view to say it's like the turn the other cheek mentality, which is even if another country is screwing us over by charging tariffs on our goods that go to those countries, we're going to pretend like they don't and not charge tariffs for them coming to their goods coming to our country. That's the turn the other cheek model. And some people favor this because they say it still makes the global pie a little bit bigger. I don't favor that. The other model is to say that, okay, we're going to at least have reciprocity, which means same standards both ways. If you're another country and you're applying tariffs to us, and not just tariffs, but maybe you're doing state sponsored subsidies to your businesses, but we don't do them here. So it's an uneven playing field for those businesses. Then we're going to level the playing field. I think that is totally legitimate. In fact, I think in most cases that makes sense. Then there's a third camp which says that even if the other country isn't really being unfair to us, we're just going to put up barriers in a way that I think is actually harmful, usually to the United States. So I think camp number two is super pragmatic to say that everybody's got to play on a level playing field. You don't get two sets of rules. One, for the Rest of the world and one for America. If we're going to be a trading partner and you're going to be a long run economic partner of the United States, great, let's play by the same set of rules. That's fair game, that's different from, and I will admit, there are a lot of people on the left and on the right who prefer the other camp to say that, okay, we should make sure that only things are ever made in the United States. Even if it could better advance the interests of American citizens to be able to have access to broader goods and bring costs down. If the other countries playing by the same set of rules, I don't think that we should be penalizing ourselves and shooting ourselves in the nose. What the expression is cut your nose to spite your face. I don't think we should do that. But if you look at Donald Trump's record, I'm not talking about rhetoric on social media or what some supporter somewhere of Donald Trump might have an opinion. It was a big coalition here, a lot of people have a lot of different opinions. But Donald Trump has been super pragmatic as a businessman on these trade issues. And sometimes when you're in negotiation, you gotta be able to play a hard card to be able to get to the place where you wanna get. And so I have no problem with that as long as the place where we land advances the interests of all Americans.
- [53:27]
Charlamagne tha God
Because how are you gonna make things more affordable like housing when you got tariffs on everything?
- [53:32]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah, so I think, cause that come.
- [53:34]
Charlamagne tha God
We gotta pay for that.
- [53:34]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Look, I think the question is if another country, I think you probably agree with me on this, if another country applies a tariff to the United States, do you think that we should apply the same tariff in return or not? Yes. Yeah, I think yes. So that's, that's, it's, it's that simple. The only thing that's a slightly little more complicated, but just a slight wrinkle to that is sometimes the other country may not be applying a strictly speaking tariff, but it functionally is a tariff because their government supports their industries, so they make them state sponsored industries with their own taxpayer dollars. But we don't do that here because we believe in true competitive markets and capitalism. That is like a tariff because effectively it props up the other, the other country's company to make it look like it's better than the US Company when in fact the company isn't actually that much better. It's just using their taxpayer dollars to do it. Oh, and by the way, we're often giving foreign aid to that very country which allows them to have extra taxpayer dollars to spend. So that's the only wrinkle is either a tariff or a tariff like unfairness. That's what we've been on the receiving end of for a long time.
- [54:32]
Charlamagne tha God
How do you make things more affordable for people if tariffs are on everything?
- [54:36]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So I think what's going to happen would typically historically plays itself out is that that other country then says, oh crap, we're actually going to be screwed and a lot worse off. Let's now play by the same set of rules because we're not going to be getting away with arbitraging the United States of America anymore. But what if we got away with it for a little while? We're not going to get away with it anymore and then both countries are actually able to have a cleaner trading relationship than not there's one the people.
- [55:01]
Charlamagne tha God
Got to suffer until that happens.
- [55:03]
Vivek Ramaswamy
There's one wrinkle to this. I think. I think most of that pretty. Most of that happens pretty quickly. If you study the history of these.
- [55:08]
DJ Envy
Trade deals with companies quickly with Colombia for sure, sure.
- [55:12]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Historically, if you look for 100 years, the way these things play out, it happens very. I mean it happens. It's relatively instant for correcting itself. The one exception to all of this, which in high favor I think is important to us is with respect to China, that's different from other countries. Not Japan or South Korea or India or the Philippines or South America. China's in a different category where I don't think we should put ourselves in a position to rely on China for anything that is critical to our national security. Take our own military. It's crazy. The following is crazy fact. The number one supplier to our Department of Defense of semiconductors is actually China. Our own military industrial base cannot exist without a Chinese dependent supply chain. That doesn't make any sense because the whole reason you have a military industrial base is to potentially protect yourself against an adversary. It makes literally no sense if you depend on that very adversary for your own military industrial base. And I would say the same for the pharmaceutical supply chain, which is a pretty critical supply chain. Especially in a week where even the CIA has now confirmed that Covid came from a lab in China. Really? That's the same country that you want to have 95% of your ibuprofen coming from, which is what it is today. That doesn't make sense. So I put China in a different category. But then the irony on this is that if you really want to declare economic independence from China in those critical sectors, that actually means you need more, not less trade with other countries like Japan and South Korea and Vietnam and India and other countries and Brazil. You actually want to bring as much as you can to the US but you got to supplement that with other countries that can also fill those gaps. And so it gets more nuanced more quickly and depends on what your priorities are. If your priorities are national security of the United States and also the economic best interest of the United States, I think what that means is you don't let other countries exploit us. You play by the same set of rules. In the case of China, you can't depend on an adversary for critical sectors. That means more on shoring to the United States, but it also means more, not less, trade with a lot of our allies to fill those gaps. So I think that's a rational course forward. And this is a good conversation because actually usually people don't get to this level of the conversation. It's just, you know, is trade war good or bad? When in fact it's for what purpose? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [57:32]
DJ Envy
Question for you though, on trade war, like why do we even. Because, for instance, with Columbia, right? I saw a Bakari Seller's two tweeted in response to Tim Scott. Tim Scott came out and supported what Trump did with Columbia. Bakari Sellers was like, with Biden, we didn't have to do that. Like, they accepted 475 deportation flights under Biden, more than 120 in 2024 alone. Basically, like, why did it even have to go to this extreme? It shows how people feel about our new president and what we might have, the extents that we might have to go to. And it's dangerous, right?
- [58:01]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, I think different countries are going to have different relationships, right? And so at some, at certain points, you want, we want a president who will play hardball for the United States when necessary. Okay? We just, that's what we want. We don't want some sort of limp spined US President that gets rolled over because the person that's getting rolled over isn't the president, it's us. So if somebody else is trying to stiff us, right, trying to roll over us, you got a double dash, say, if you're going to hit me, I'm going to hit you back ten times harder. Metaphorically speaking, I think that's okay for the President to take that mentality. And by the way, under Biden, part of the reason why is you had way more illegals that were of the kind that they actually wanted to get out of their country that were actually finding their way into ours. And so each situation is going to be different. But if you ask me, do we want a president, if I had to make the choice, and I do think that often it is a trade off, often it is a trade off between somebody who is going to be well liked or well feared on the global stage. I would rather have a president who is well feared on the global stage than one who is well liked. Where it's possible to do both, that's the best. But when you have to make a choice, I want my president, I don't care what party he is. I want my president to be one who is feared rather than loved by adversaries or even allies who are looking after their own interests. I think respect follows somebody who stands for his own interests. Actually, in the short run, somebody who loves what you do may not actually respect you. Right. And I think Donald Trump's this way with respect to other leaders. He respects other leaders who looks after their country's interests, even though he's gonna play hardball with them along the way. I'm the same way is think about the people in a business negotiation who roll over versus people who actually will hold the line when necessary for their interest. I respect that, even if that makes for a tougher negotiation. So I think we will automatically be more respected by the world if we stand for our own interests. And then here's also one area where the US Is different than other countries. It's a little bit. You know, people in other countries may take issue with it, but probably not, because it's true. What hope does the rest of the free world have if the United States, the shining city on a hill, still doesn't shine? And I've talked to leaders from other countries over the last year. The way they've framed it to me is the US Has a choice to make. I mean, you guys decide which one you're going to be. Are you actually going to remain the leader of the world and proud of who you are? And if you're not, just let us know. Because I think that we will organize our own, our own views differently. And I do think that the United States of America in particular has an obligation not to just to itself, but to history, to remain the strongest version of itself. Because if the United States just goes back to being just like any other ordinary country around the world, in some sense, it's a loss of hope, not just for every American, but for the free world as we know it. And I think that too is secretly these other countries where in the short term they might wanna exploit the US but if they come back and say, no, no, no, the US Is back, they're strong, they're a leader, and I might not get my little trade agreement exactly what I wanted out of it. But I know that that's somebody who I can really depend on to be consistent in looking after their own interests and for standing for what freedom means. I actually think that will win us more respect in the long run.
- [61:07]
Charlamagne tha God
I got a few more questions. You're always so generous with your time. What did Trump say when you told him you wanted to leave Doge?
- [61:12]
Vivek Ramaswamy
It was a pretty good mutual discussion. He was very supportive. And, you know, I think Donald Trump and I, we built a good relationship since I left the race. I think it's, for me, I've always been somebody who, I need to stand for my own vision for the country. I'm at my best when I'm standing for my vision for the future, and I'm excited for that. And Donald Trump was super supportive of that. We had a good time at the inauguration together, and I think we're working together informally for a long time to come.
- [61:38]
Charlamagne tha God
One of the executive orders that happened was DOGE was rebranded as the US Digital Service, which was an Obama era group, which is basically created to keep, to manage the Affordable Care Acts website. Right.
- [61:51]
Vivek Ramaswamy
That's where it started.
- [61:52]
Charlamagne tha God
Okay. But now it determines best practices for the government's use of technology. That wasn't your initial vision for you.
- [61:58]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So look, there were a couple different visions and approach. And I will say that Elon, in taking a technology first approach, he's the best person to take that technology first approach. No doubt about it. You know, my, what I've always been drawn to in my books and a lot of the articles I've written in my, my own campaign for president, a lot of my focus has been on using the constitutional landscape and using the legislative landscape to bring down spending to curb regulations. I think the best way to do that is from the perch of elected office. And I think that when you think about who's gonna drive change through technology in the government, nobody better than Elon to do that.
- [62:33]
Charlamagne tha God
But it seems like the Trump administration, at least some of them, like Steve Bannon, the Susie Wiles of the world, they don't, they're not fond of him, it seems. Look, Steve, Steve Bannon is me.
- [62:42]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I'm not a, I'm not a big palace intrigue, you know, person. Steph, I'm an ideas guy. I believe in vision for the country. I want to think about how we're going to best be able to improve the country. I don't really, I don't, I'm not super, I don't, I don't really think the personality driven stuff is something that's super of interest to me. But I can tell you what I see. What I see, certainly for what I was part of, is you got a coalition here that is unified in wanting to restore American greatness even with a diversity of views underneath that coalition. Right. Because you can't have both a big tent coalition while also having everybody having united views on every small question. And so I think that was part of what was cool this last year. I mean, I ran for US President with slightly different views on certain things than Donald Trump. I endorsed him when I left the race. You got the likes of independents, you got, you know, Bobby Kennedy, you got Tulsi, you got a bunch of other people, Elon Musk, a bunch of people who each have our own distinctive spins on what the right emphasis should be for the future of the country, but came together in what is a, you know, I think a big tent coalition, which means there's always going to be some levels of diversity of thought and opinion in that coalition. I think that's actually a good thing. I think that makes a movement stronger. And so I think Trump is.
- [63:52]
Charlamagne tha God
They only cater to the billionaire class though, which is why.
- [63:54]
Vivek Ramaswamy
That's true.
- [63:55]
Charlamagne tha God
Which is why it's so interesting that they got so many working class people to, you know, go out.
- [63:58]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah, I don't think, I don't, I, I don't think that's true. I don't think it's a sin to be a billionaire in the country.
- [64:02]
Charlamagne tha God
No, I think that is in. To be a billionaire.
- [64:03]
Vivek Ramaswamy
No, I think so. I think that's part of the coalition. I think it was very different. If you look at the stage at inauguration and by the way, I'm a big fan of indoor inaugurations. It was a great.
- [64:11]
Laura
It was warm, huh?
- [64:12]
Vivek Ramaswamy
It was warm. It was good. I don't know if you watched it, you know, but if you look at the people who are. I was, I was on stage with the diversity of people who were on that stage.
- [64:19]
Charlamagne tha God
The whole front row was the tech guys, all the billionaires.
- [64:22]
Vivek Ramaswamy
And four, imagine that four years ago, many of those same platforms had censored and silenced the account of that same president. I think that's progress. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think There may be some people across the country who say, well, that's a bad thing and we need to, we need to go re. Litigate.
- [64:35]
Laura
That's what some people say.
- [64:36]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Elon's running the country, but I think Donald Trump's running the country. I think that's the hard truth of the matter. And I think that there are things, there are views that everybody in this coalition who supported him may have that may be slightly different, what Donald Trump actually does, because he's done a good job of building and melding together a pretty diverse coalition of independents, libertarian minded folks. You have some folks who are, you certainly got the American working class union folks, you got minorities, you have people who have lived the American dream themselves. You have people who have not yet lived the American dream but aspire for their children to. It's a pretty big tent. And so obviously if you're gonna bring together that type of coalition, not everyone is gonna agree on 100% of policies. I'd prefer that to one where everybody did uniformly agree on everything, but it was a much more insular, you know, segment of the American population. So I think this is a good thing because we're.
- [65:28]
Charlamagne tha God
Two more questions. How you gonna, how is the Trump administration gonna reduce food prices when they're deporting the people who are picking the.
- [65:36]
DJ Envy
Food and because he said first day out and we ain't seen no prices drop yet.
- [65:39]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, come on, it's been a couple weeks, right? It's been not even a couple weeks.
- [65:43]
Charlamagne tha God
It's been a week of the people who are actually picking the food.
- [65:45]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, I mean, deporting the people. Well, we, maybe we should have a system. I think you would agree with me on this. Maybe we should have a system where the people who's picking our food or people who are in our food supply chain were not people who entered the country illegally, but actually fostered both American born and a proper legal immigration system to staff that in a way that isn't illegal. That's a separate question.
- [66:03]
Charlamagne tha God
You want to deport 20 million people and there's only 14 million people living in the country illegally. What else? You're getting rid of them.
- [66:08]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Let's just talk about bringing down food prices for a second because I think it's an important point. I would also add to the list, by the way, housing prices. I would add to the list energy prices, especially electricity costs. I would add insurance costs.
- [66:22]
Charlamagne tha God
How things are going to be tough. Insurance costs on everything.
- [66:24]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Well, here's, here's the number one way to do it. Increase the Supply of everything. Right. So laws of supply and demand, if you have constricted supply, you have higher prices. If you have more supply, prices come down. And one of the easiest things that we're able to do in all of those areas, housing, food, energy, you bring down the regulatory barrier to producing more of it. That is automatically going to bring prices down. That's at least the first and easiest step we can take. Some of this is at the federal level, but keep in mind, not all of this is stuff that Donald Trump can do. Some of this is. A lot of this is actually at the state level too. I mean, you think about most of the regulations that stop people from producing food, most of the regulations that stop people from building new houses, including manufactured homes, which I think is actually an innovative area for the future. You think about even a lot of the restrictions on energy production, nuclear energy included, a lot of that is at the state level. Which is part of why in my own reflection, right, thinking about having an impact on the country, if you're doing this public service thing, there's a lot about it that isn't super pleasant at all times. So if you're going to do it, you might as well have the biggest possible impact you can have. And the way I look at it is Donald Trump, he's got it covered at the federal level. I'm rooting for success and I expect success, but it's not gonna be a one man show. At the end of the day, you got 50 states that have also have to tackle these very same problems. And especially when it's questions of affordability, questions relating to education. Education is all driven by the states. I think the states is where it's at in terms of actually the need to drive real change. And so I've set my sights accordingly and I will try to, yeah, I've tried to and I'm gonna hopefully stay true to not just talking about this stuff, but to actually translate it to action. And I do think that this is a lot of the issues we're talking about bringing down housing costs. That is not a partisan issue. There are a lot of Republicans who are pissed off about high housing costs, A lot of Democrats who were pissed off about high housing costs. And it is not a nature made problem, it's not a law of physics. It is a man made problem. And a man made problem has a man made solution. And Donald Trump can set the tone. But those regulations, most of them are actually at the state level. Same thing with respect to education, determining whether or not that poor young Kid in the inner city, black, Hispanic or white, can go to an actual good school isn't determined by the federal government. It's determined by actually those state laws. Same thing with respect to food restrictions, the constraints on nuclear energy production. A lot of those are at the state level. And so I'm actually excited about making sure that we're not just looking at this as a one size fits all solution. I supported Donald Trump pretty heavily. I dedicated a significant part of my last year to getting him elected because I thought he would restore that sense of spine, that sense of greatness to America. But it's never a one man show. It's never one man coming down from the White House to save us. It's never been that way. In fact, our founders envisioned this system of federalism to be led by the state's bottom up as well. And so I'm excited for both of those to work in the next couple of years.
- [69:27]
Charlamagne tha God
Do you think you were pushed out of Doge because Trump rolled back the DEI initiatives?
- [69:31]
Vivek Ramaswamy
No, to the contrary. And you know, I would say, just to be super clear about, I have no, I have no problem with, you know, framing or whatever. It was really just an actual mutual decision. Where you look at here was one vision on approach, here's a different vision on an approach. That's great. There's no right or wrong answer. With a technology driven approach and a technology first approach, there's no better person than Elon to run with that, with a constitutional law focus, with a legislation focus. Some of the areas I was focused on, probably the right place to do it is elected office. And so we all agreed on that. And I think that that's actually a good thing where we're able to, where we're actually able to collaborate. Divide and conquer.
- [70:07]
Charlamagne tha God
I hear you, Vivek. I don't believe you. But I think you either got pushed out or you know that it's going to implode. I think that, you know, Elon is gonna crash and burn it. And you're a smart guy and you said, you know what, let me get out of Dodge and go do my Governor Ohio thing.
- [70:22]
Vivek Ramaswamy
So look, here's Doge.
- [70:23]
Charlamagne tha God
Doge, exactly.
- [70:25]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I knew that the right step for me in the long run is elect office and to pursue the vision that we're talking about here, to actually translate that to action in my own terms. That's what I've been called to do. It was clear that I could not do that and serve on Doge at the same time, even for logistical reasons. It came to be in the government rather than an outside body. I was proud to be able to spend the first couple of months offering my contributions and setting it in the right direction with its focus now with its digital technology focus. No better person to do that than Elon in the way that he's going to lead it. And I am hopeful that there's going to be a lot of streamlining of government bureaucracy that comes out of that. And I'm pursuing my next steps at the state level.
- [71:07]
Charlamagne tha God
Are they going to endorse you? Is Elon going to endorse you? Trump going to endorse you?
- [71:10]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We're all on very good terms, and so I wouldn't want to speak for anybody else, but I will say that they are very supportive of the decision that I made to pursue as my next step.
- [71:18]
Charlamagne tha God
Gotcha.
- [71:19]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Yeah.
- [71:19]
Laura
All right. You've been here a long time and we appreciate it.
- [71:22]
Charlamagne tha God
I always enjoy talking to you.
- [71:23]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Glad you hit me up over the weekend.
- [71:24]
Charlamagne tha God
Listen, I cannot wait until you uncle hitch your horse from this MAGA wagon.
- [71:28]
DJ Envy
And you can really tell.
- [71:32]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I got my horse hitched to one wagon. And I'm not being corny about it. I really mean it. It is the America wagon. I love this country, and I will. You know what? I would rather fight to this country for the principles I believe in and stand for and lose than to win by checking some box along the way. And this next step for me, I think, is going to be. It's going to be really good.
- [71:53]
Charlamagne tha God
You don't want your horse hitched to the MAGA wagon.
- [71:55]
Vivek Ramaswamy
My horse is hitched to the America wagon. And I think that. And I think making America great again, by the way, I'm all in for that. I'm all in for making America great again. If we're doing our jobs, four years from now, we won't be saying make America great again. We'll just say, make America greater. That's who we've always been. So I want to turn MAGA into mag. Okay. So we don't have to make America great again. We just have to make America greater. And I think it's good to have the humility to say make America great again acknowledges we're not perfect right now.
- [72:24]
Charlamagne tha God
And some people just want to make America great because they've never experienced the greatness.
- [72:28]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Let's make America greater than it's ever been. That's what I'm all in for.
- [72:32]
DJ Envy
You gonna be able to really do that as governor? You gonna have to. Is that just for you to be there and Be quiet until you figure.
- [72:36]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Out, well, I'm not gonna be quiet. I'm not very good at that. And you better believe that I'm gonna have a lot to say at every step of this way. I don't believe in being shackled, and I think that the ability to lead a state, but also to be able to revive this culture of victory over victimhood in America, that's what I care about. We're victors, not victims. That's who we are. And I don't care where that comes from. I've been from my first book, Woke Inc. All the way through everything I've done ever since. I'm against victimhood, culture. We're victors. We're exceptional. We believe in excellence. We believe in being unconstrained as a people and as a country. Well, if I'm going to be a leader in that country, I'm going to be pretty unconstrained at every step of the way, too. So that's why I look at it.
- [73:18]
Laura
Vic Ramaswamy, Good luck in Ohio. And how are you gonna take care of our Haitian family over there that, you know, Trump said, Yeah, I visited.
- [73:25]
Vivek Ramaswamy
A number of them in Springfield, and I think that I spent a lot of time in Springfield growing up, actually.
- [73:30]
Charlamagne tha God
Did you have dinner with any of them?
- [73:32]
Vivek Ramaswamy
We didn't. Oh, yeah. No, we did not. We hung out. We hung out. It was the daytime where we hung out. But I would say that. I will say that it's understandable where you have a tiny community that is really small population in Springfield that has had its population dramatically transformed. I don't blame anybody. That's what I said when I went visited Springfield. I don't blame anybody in that community. I don't blame the people who live in Springfield for being upset. I don't blame Haitians who made decisions for their own family to end up in Springfield the way they are. I do blame a lot of failed government policies. And at the end of the day, you could sit back and blame the government all you want. And some of at a certain point in time, I said, okay, I'm sitting here offering commentary from an armchair. I'm done with that. I want to go in and actually be through action, make a difference that you want to see. Best way to do it's from elected office. And I prefer an executive office that involves actually being an executive rather than just being one among a chorus of 100.
- [74:25]
Charlamagne tha God
I'm just ready to see the real you because I think you're a smart dude and I listen to a lot of your interviews. And I watch you a lot and I'm like, yo, you know, Vivek says some things that I can get with.
- [74:33]
Vivek Ramaswamy
But I'm just, I'm unconstrained, man.
- [74:35]
Charlamagne tha God
Real you.
- [74:35]
DJ Envy
Not yet.
- [74:36]
Charlamagne tha God
You might not yet constrain the magnet.
- [74:40]
Vivek Ramaswamy
I'm not going to be constrained by anybody. And you know what? You could watch me over the next year winning some election. Most politicians, their goal is to get reelected. I don't need to get elected anything. We live a great life. We live the American dream. This is my way of giving back. What's the point of going through the motions if you're just going to be hamstrung by what you say and do in the first place? And so I think that, let me put it this way, running to be the chief executive of a state, a governor, short of being a president, is the single greatest way to have unshackled impact on your country. And I'll look forward to making a big announcement about that in a few weeks.
- [75:19]
Laura
All right, that's Vivek Ramaswamy. We appreciate you for joining us.
- [75:22]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Good seeing you, man.
- [75:22]
Laura
It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.
- [75:24]
Charlamagne tha God
Wake that ass up early in the morning.
- [75:26]
Vivek Ramaswamy
The Breakfast Club. The new year is here and I'm trying to keep things simple this year. One thing to help me keep things simple is Amazon Prime. It's the cheat code to stay in, locked in on whatever you need. It's not just fast delivery. Prime's a whole experience from Prime Video and Amazon Music to Prime free one day delivery. It's got everything to keep my year stress free. Watching Thursday Night Football. Prime's got you with the same day snack delivery. Want to chill after the game? Find a movie on Prime Video and kick back with some Amazon music. Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com prime now.
- [76:05]
Jon Stewart
Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcasts listeners like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [76:40]
Nimini
Hey, y'all, Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records, executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pirates and John Glickman Historical Records brings history to life through Hip Hop.
- [76:57]
Charlamagne tha God
Smash Slam, Another one gone.
- [76:59]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Bash Bam. Another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone.
- [77:03]
Charlamagne tha God
The tip of the cap cause another one gone.
- [77:06]
Nimini
Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15 year old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to historical records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to historical records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [77:48]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Hi, I'm Arturo Castro and I've been lucky enough to do stuff like Broad City and Narcos and Roadhouse. And now I'm starting a podcast because honestly guys, I don't feel the space is crowded enough. Get ready for Greatest Escapes, a new comedy podcast about the wildest true escape stories in history. Each week I'll be sitting down with some of the most hilarious actors and writers and comedians. People like Ed Helms, Diane Guerrero, and Joseph Gordon Levitt. I love storytelling and I love you.
- [78:14]
Arturo Castro
So I can't wait.
- [78:15]
Vivek Ramaswamy
Listen and subscribe to Greatest escapes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.