INTERVIEW: Wendell Pierce On Career Journey, Navigating Your Purpose, NPR, PBS Shutdown, Trump, CLTC + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club – Interview with Wendell Pierce

Episode Title: INTERVIEW: Wendell Pierce On Career Journey, Navigating Your Purpose, NPR, PBS Shutdown, Trump, CLTC + More
Release Date: August 6, 2025
Hosts: Charlamagne Tha God, DJ Envy, Lauren LaRosa
Guest: Wendell Pierce

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Breakfast Club, hosts Charlamagne Tha God and DJ Envy engage in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed actor Wendell Pierce. The discussion delves into Pierce's illustrious career, his reflections on the groundbreaking series The Wire, the importance of representation in media, and his recent advocacy efforts to support legacy theaters of color. Pierce also shares his insights on navigating purpose, maintaining hope amidst systemic challenges, and shaping cultural legacy.

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Career Journey and Reflections on The Wire

Wendell Pierce opens up about his career, emphasizing his dedication to diverse and meaningful roles. He describes himself as a "journeyman actor" committed to building a robust body of work across stage, television, and film. Highlighting his recent projects, including roles in Superman and collaboration with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington, Pierce underscores his passion for storytelling that resonates with audiences.

Notable Quote:

"I try to be as diverse as possible every year. Do the trifecta. Some stage, television, and film."
(03:22)

Reflecting on The Wire, Pierce shares his pride in the show's profound impact on audiences and its portrayal of complex societal issues. He compares the series to art that goes beyond entertainment, serving as a mirror to humanity.

Notable Quote:

"The Wire was the canary in the mine. It was the thing that let us know that there was going to be an American decline if we did not take care of the greatest resource we have in this country, and that's its people."
(05:42)

---

Representation vs. Visibility in Media

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the distinction between representation and visibility. Pierce articulates the importance of authentic representation, asserting that it has a lasting impact even if immediate visibility is not achieved.

Notable Quote:

"I'll take visibility over representation, because I know that representation is impactful... The Wire, everybody was sleeping on it when it was on air. Now 20 years later it's still impactful."
(33:26)

He elaborates on how genuine representation can influence and inspire future generations, drawing parallels to his own experiences and the enduring legacy of The Wire.

---

Advocacy and the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color (CLTC) Fund

Wendell Pierce passionately discusses his role in launching the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color (CLTC) Fund, a $10 million initiative aimed at supporting and sustaining legacy theaters that have enriched New York City's cultural landscape for decades. Partnering with notable entities like Jay-Z's Roc Nation and Caesars Entertainment, the fund seeks to provide essential resources for productions and marketing, ensuring these institutions continue to thrive.

Notable Quote:

"I'm very proud of something that we're announcing and launching. It's the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color Fund, which I have been a part of creating to give opportunities to those legacy theaters."
(36:14)

Pierce emphasizes the dual role of the fund in fostering economic development and protecting cultural heritage, drawing from his own experiences rebuilding his neighborhood post-Katrina and recognizing the pivotal role of legacy theaters in community building.

---

Navigating Purpose and Maintaining Hope

Amidst discussions about systemic challenges and media shutdowns, Pierce shares his philosophy on maintaining hope through radical self-care and principled action. He highlights the resilience of the Black community and the importance of standing on principle to drive meaningful change.

Notable Quote:

"I understand the power of exercising and practicing radical self care... How dare we at any moment, especially where we are right now, lose hope?"
(57:12)

Pierce draws inspiration from historical figures like Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King Jr., illustrating how steadfastness in principles can honor past sacrifices and pave the way for future generations.

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Cultural Legacy and Building for Future Generations

In the concluding segments, Pierce defines cultural legacy as the intersection of people and life, emphasizing the role of art in reflecting and shaping societal values. He likens cultural contributions to the making of gumbo—blending diverse elements to create something that nourishes and delights.

Notable Quote:

"Culture is a people intersecting with life itself. That is cultural legacy. It's, I think, of the culinary arts of New Orleans, what gumbo is all about."
(81:44)

He underscores the responsibility of artists and advocates to contribute authentically to culture, ensuring that their work leaves a lasting, positive impact on society.

---

Conclusion

Wendell Pierce's interview on The Breakfast Club offers a profound exploration of his career, the significance of The Wire, and his commitment to fostering representation and cultural legacy. Through his advocacy with the CLTC Fund and his reflections on maintaining purpose and hope, Pierce exemplifies the role of an artist as both a storyteller and a community leader. This episode serves as an inspiring blueprint for aspiring artists and advocates aiming to create meaningful change through art and principled action.

---

For listeners seeking to understand the intersection of art, culture, and social advocacy, this interview with Wendell Pierce provides invaluable insights and serves as a testament to the enduring power of representation and legacy in media.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Wendell Pierce]

Okay?

[Commercial Voice]

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[Wendell Pierce]

Every day, I wake up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wake your ass up.

[Wendell Pierce]

The Breakfast Club. You all finished or y' all done?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes. It's the world's most dangerous morning show. The Breakfast Club. Charlamagne. Tha God. DJ Envy. Just hilarious. But Envy's not here right now, but Lauren LaRosa is in, and we got a special guest in the building. The great Wendell Pierce is here. Good morning, sir.

[Wendell Pierce]

Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. This is a real honor. I finally made it to the Breakfast Club. You know, I feel like you've been on before. No, this is my first time, man. This is my first time. It's a real honor, man. You know, like I was telling you, I'm a jazz head, you know, so I'm listening to jazz in the morning and stuff like that. And it wasn't until I was in London doing Death of a Salesman, you know, the two gentlemen who played my sons, everyone's like, you don't know about the Breakfast Club. I'm like, yeah, I know about it. I lied. And then. And then they would turn me onto it. Like, every day. We got every. I got all my news that was like my. You know, my Associated Press was the Breakfast Club, you know, so now that's why I was joking. I should come in here with my. You know, I have my little entourage and, you know, my bag of cash.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Podcast Host]

Three of y'. All moments.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[DJ Envy]

I love that.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. So thank you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We're glad that you finally. Yeah, we're glad you finally could join us, man. I wish I could be there in studio, but I had to be out of town this week.

[Wendell Pierce]

No, I understand.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

How are you, first of all?

[Wendell Pierce]

I'm good, man. It's been a real busy summer. I've been enjoying myself because I'm already back to work. Summer ended for me last week, but it's been great. I've been traveling a lot. You know, I have discovered Angila. This is a great island.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Anguilla, baby.

[DJ Envy]

That is Charlamagne's favorite place to go.

[Wendell Pierce]

Oh, man. It's what I call a drop and plop, right? You drop your bag and you plop down. Oh, man, we're giving. We should be giving it away. Charlamagne. But then again, listen, I've been.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I've been going there for years, man. I love it. But it's an island that you go to if you like to do nothing.

[Wendell Pierce]

That's it.

[DJ Envy]

That's why you say drop and plop.

[Wendell Pierce]

Drop and plop. I love it. So I've been traveling around and, you know, had a busy summer because I had a lot of films come out this summer and coming out. So it's good. And back to work already.

[DJ Envy]

And when I say. And I just have to say for. Just for me personally, you do not age. Okay.

[Wendell Pierce]

Like.

[DJ Envy]

Cause I. I discovered you on the Wire. I'm from Baltimore City, so.

[Wendell Pierce]

That's right. Baltimore in the house.

[DJ Envy]

My favorite show to watch. Like, it just came out.

[Wendell Pierce]

It's one of my favorite cities. I feel like it's a hometown of mine.

[DJ Envy]

Yes, yes. But I just wanted to make. Man, you look amazing. Still, you just age it so gracefully, so.

[Wendell Pierce]

Thank you. Well, you know, they say black don't crack.

[DJ Envy]

That's what they say it.

[Wendell Pierce]

So I'm trying to live up to that.

[DJ Envy]

That's right. Unless you want crack. That's right.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. Unless you want to crack. Yeah. You know, if you want crack, you will crack. There's a. There's always exceptions to that. Right. I love Baltimore, man. When we were doing the Wire, you know, it was like this delayed response. So it was like our summer camp where we would go down, work on the Wire. And I had such a good time there. I saw y' all had the whole crew, all the criminal side over here. We did. We had the criminals, the cops out up here. The cops, the cops. You know, we need our Respect, too.

[Commercial Voice]

That's right.

[Wendell Pierce]

But I would always go to. There was a club called Choices. Oh, I loved Choices. And that dance, that crunk, whatever that dance was. Matt.

[DJ Envy]

Popping, all that.

[Wendell Pierce]

Oh, popping it is. I look like the old man in the club. That's what I was. And I would go there and they thought I was a cop because I would put on a suit. Choices was, you know, it was.

[DJ Envy]

You know, you ain't had no business.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Being in there when it was.

[Wendell Pierce]

I know I went in with a suit because Choices was, you know, you didn't play at Choices. It was the real deal. It was no TV criminals in there. It was the real deal sometimes. And so I put on a suit and everybody thought I was real.5o, you know, and I said that was. Would keep me safe. Any club, you have to go through two metal detectors when you go in. You know, it's an issue. Two. Right, two. So I stayed near the door. But I loved Choices. I love Baltimore. Baltimore reminded me of New Orleans, where I'm from. Yeah, right. Has all the same issues. It has all the beautiful stuff, too, you know. Very. And to this day, a city that I love. Have invested in, and it's a second home.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I saw you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

When you think about 23 years at a wire, what does that mean to you?

[Wendell Pierce]

The wire was the canary in the mine. It was the thing that let us know that there was going to be an American decline if we did not take care of the greatest resource we have in this country, and that's its people. And the thing that I'm proud of as an artist is that's the role of art. It's not just entertainment. It's the place where we reflect on who. What thoughts are to the individual, where you think about who you are, what you want to be, your triumphs, your failures. That's what art is, you know, and that's what the show was. It was a place where we reflect on who we are, what we're doing, our dysfunction, hopefully decide what our values are and then act on them. You know, I was very. I was very proud of what the Wire is. And the Wire is. Is a classic. And what makes something classic, it speaks to people then, speaks to people now, and it will speak to people long after we're gone because it speaks to that common humanity that we have. You'd never pass a corner boy anymore without understanding that he has a full life and there's a whole story behind him. So I'm very proud of the why. Very proud of him.

[Podcast Host]

What Because. Because you were early on in saying this, right. That the Wire is letting us know what's about to happen. Coming. How did you know that then when you were doing it? And like, you know, even in the earlier years. Because people always ask you about bringing the Wire back.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you've been saying it for some time.

[Wendell Pierce]

And I always said, you know, the only thing I tried to do, I tried to convince them to do a prequel of the Wire because they always said, y' all too old, too long in the tooth now, you know, to be trying to do a sequel. But I said, we should see how it comes up. And actually I talked to Sam Samuel Jackson, man, he was going to play the folks that. That were controlling the towers before Stringer and. And Avon. Avon, yeah. Boxdale took over, right. Who they that battle for that territory then? So David said, yo, yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. But he always said he was never gonna do it. So it's like a good book. I knew that it was gonna be effective then because you saw, you saw, you heard how it impacted people. I remember one walk I had in Manhattan. I was walking one time and this little old white lady with blue hair stopped me on the east side, said, you know, I love the Wire. That's my show. A little further along, this real sort of military square jar guide looked around and said, you know, I love the Wire. You know, I can't get. Not really. I can't talk to you right now because I'm undercover, I'm on the job. Then I got up to like, wow. I got up to 118th street, whatever, and this brother came up to me, man. He was looking around, just like the other guy. He's looking around. He said, yeah, man, I love the Wire. I can't talk to you right now, but you know, I'm hustling, I'm hustling everybody, right? So I was just like, if a hustler and the little blue haired old lady was still digging the same thing, we were speaking to our humanity. So that's how I knew we were making an impact then.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, man, I'm glad you keep using that word, Humanity, Right. Cause how do you ensure each performance speaks to our humanity and not just the character's story?

[Wendell Pierce]

First of all, good research. You know, I learned so much about specifically black cops. Why someone would become a cop. Most of you African American, this was across the board, man. Most of the cats I met, black men and women who decided to become police officers were from those neighborhoods. And they said that I grew up with Ms. Ann and Mr. Joe, and 99% of the folks are some hard working, you know, working poor, going out there and trying to make it, make a way out of no way, as we say. And then they realized, you know, you know, that the crime that was disproportionately affecting their neighborhood was just like that 1%. And they knew that they could have an impact on that. And when you tap into that, that's something that's authentic. And when something is authentic, it may be something that's totally different from you, from a disparate world, but if it is truthful, you recognize it, right? The more universal, the more specific you are, the more universal your story becomes, you know, and no matter where you're from, you can recognize yourself in someone else's story and humanity. That's why I always say, don't try to dumb something down or don't try to make it just appeal to me. Or you think I wouldn't like that? Actually, if you're just truthful to that, everybody understands it. You could take some hardcore kid, you know, from the hood who's never been, you know, traveled outside of his 10 block radius and see, you know, see the story of, you know, the Black Swan, see a movie like that and then go, man, I know what she's going through, right. I can understand how, how she was trying to become something and had this, you know, all these other jealous people trying to keep her down. And ultimately, you know, she thrived. You know, they recognize the story that's truthful. So the more authentic and truthful you are, the more universal it becomes. And the way you do that is you tap into something that is authentic. And that was the thing that actually made them write. Speaking of the Wire, I was talking about black cops when the writer said, can I use some of that? And that's the scene that between me and Omar on the bench, because we came from the same neighborhood, we are of the same neighborhood, and I'm telling him, no more bodies. He understands it. The reason he doesn't say anything is because he knows I'm right. Right? And so that's the thing. That's. That's the thing that makes it truthful, and that's the thing that makes it universal and appealing to people.

[Podcast Host]

Early on, though, like, what did you like, how, how were you able to kind of shape yourself in a way, because, you know, when you first start working in the business, you just got to work, you got to pay bills, right?

[Wendell Pierce]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But now knowing you as an actor, even just seeing you, I've. I can feel the characters you've played, and, like, you know, it becomes like a brand or almost like a. Like a reputation for you. Like, there's certain things I just expect you to do and take on, but early on, like, how did you kind of gear your way into this lane of responsibility, humanity, and all things?

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, so, you know, I trained very seriously. You know, I went to Juilliard and trained four years and all. And I knew that I wanted to. If I worked that hard, I wanted to do television, I wanted to do film. I wanted to do stage. I'm a classically trained actor, and so I try to be as diverse as possible every year. Do the trifecta. Some stage, television, and film. Right. And I am Tri Coastal, live in New Orleans, but I work here in New York. I work in Los Angeles. I'm on the Gulf Coast, East Coast, West Coast. People always say, wendell, man, hang in there, man. You're gonna be working. I'm like, I am working man over here, you over there, right? And so mixing it up like that helps you start to build a career, because work gets you work, right? You work with someone, people see it, say, okay, they appreciate it. You get another job. Then that person says, I want to work with you again. So work gets you work. And then also your audience starts to. Starts to see that you are consistently really building your characters in a particular way. So I'm. I think my brand would be as that journeyman actor, you know, who. You know, that character actor who is an actor of character.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

You know, and so that's what I pride myself on, doing all sorts of different things, especially at the same time. So you can see the range. You know, I'm playing. I'm on Elspeth right now as a captain, police officer, and at the same time, I'm raising Canaan, where I'm like, old school bank robber and supplying Kanan with his. With all of his product, and I'm his bank. And Superman, Yeah, I'm in Superman. This summer's been great. A perfect example of that. Thunderbolts started off this summer. First time in, you know, the whole Marvel world. And then I did Superman, which has just gone around the world. It's really fantastic. I went to, you know, to the opening, and to see the impact that. That. That that franchise has is amazing. And. And then later on, I worked with Denzel, and Highest to lowest, which is coming out next week. So.

[Podcast Host]

Spike Lee film, right?

[Wendell Pierce]

Spike Lee film. Spike Lee joint. I was One of the assassins. The second time I worked with Denzel, I was one of the assassins on Malcolm X. So it's great to be back with Spike and Denzel again.

[DJ Envy]

Man, you working.

[Wendell Pierce]

You are working. Trying to. To get out there. Yeah, you know, I'm, you know, I'm that guy that people see and they go, hey, man, where do I know you from?

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Wendell Pierce]

Where do I know?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Hey, man, you know, you go to my church.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. So that's what happened. So I'm that guy. And then. And then they go away and then come back. Oh, man, I'm sorry. I was just looking at you last night, you know, so it's actually a compliment. It's actually a compliment when people see you like that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I feel like I've never seen you do a role that wasn't grounded in purpose.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's what I.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Is that intentional?

[Wendell Pierce]

Well, you haven't seen all my stuff. I got some bullshit out there, you know, you can't do. I. I am celebrating my 40th year in the business, man, and. Wow.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Congratulations.

[Wendell Pierce]

Thank you. Thank you. It's this month, actually. Yeah. You go back. I'm just. I'm fortunate that they bombed. Right? Because, you know, just like, work gets you, work gets you bullshit. A lot of times I'm gonna stop cursing, too, but a lot of times, feel free. A lot of times, the business, you know, they want you to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. So, damn, I got a lot of chicken out there, you know, But. But I, I try. I tried to. I tried to pick my roles with purpose. You're absolutely right, because, you know, I want to be able to look back at a body of work and, and. And see, you know, a multitude of different roles and, you know, tap into trying to come to an understanding of what this journey is all about, you know, And I, I, I'm was motivated to become an actor by James Earl Jones and Roscoe Lee Brown, Julius Harris, you know, those men kind of set the bar high for me, you know, and for those of you who don't know who Roscoe Lee Brown, James Earl Jones, and Julius Harris are, you know, now you got a little homework, you know, Google them, and you see that they set the bar high, and I like that diversity.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Well, let me ask this, then. How do you stay grounded in purpose while navigating in an industry that can be performative, even. Even off stage?

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, it's about what's important to you. You know, recognize what your contribution to the dynamic is going to be and be a be A student of your craft. I tell young actors that all the time. Be a student of your craft and employment doesn't define you as an actor or an artist. Now, that's easy to understand. You know, when you're unemployed, you know, you're like, I want to hang in there. You know, I know even though I'm not being paid, I don't have a gig right now. Let me focus on the work.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Wendell Pierce]

But then there are times when you are employed and you're doing some. You know, you have to also say, employment doesn't define me as an actor. Everyone's being a yes man, you know, saying, oh, you're good. You're good. Oh, that's. That's the joint, right? But you have to know, no, man, this is some. This is some bull. Yeah, I have to. I have to step up my game. And so have. Have some pride in yourself and be a student of your craft and always set the bar high. You see that? You know, man, listen, in the culture, people understand that when it comes to basketball, when it comes to sports in general. And I'll never forget, the thing that got me so impressed with LeBron is I'll never forget, he was explaining a game one time, and you saw that he was a savant. He described every play almost in the second half of the fourth quarter. He said, well, what happened this? And then he passed the ball. He missed. And the fact that he remembered it, remember what went right, what went wrong? He was a savant. Right? And so that just. That made me really appreciate him. Right. Really appreciate his game. But, you know, and that's the thing that will. That. That's the thing that will help you and will be there for you in the most difficult times. Be a student of your craft. When people putting you down, when there's conflict, when things aren't going right for you. The one true north that you will always have is, I'm a student of my craft, and that's important to me. And that will be, you know, your saving grace.

[Podcast Host]

When you're choosing or I guess, like you're getting or casting for roles, do you still audition or do they just call you.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, you audition. They try to pretend you're not auditioning. Oh, let's just have a meeting, you know, and. Let's just have a meeting, and we're gonna film the meeting. You don't mind if we just film the meeting? So we remember. But, you know, I just want to have a. Have something to reference what we were talking about, you Know, I'm like, okay, yeah. And then. And then we'll be talking about the role. And they, you know, and I like to cut to the chase. I said, well, you know, in the first reel and this first act, this was happening. In the second act, this is happening. But the most important thing is when he ultimately expresses his love for this woman. And it's the most difficult thing he's ever done in his life. But he knows the expression of this love. Actually, you know, it happens in this scene. Scene. Let's. You mind if we read it? Let me just read it. Let's just read it. And they're like, oh, yes. Oh, I love to. You know, and they're all happy. And that's the thing that actually makes us. Gives me a little distinction, because most cats would be like, nah, I don't want to, you know, read. If it's a meeting, it's a meeting. Either make the offer or not. I said, I'm going to show you what I'm going to do. And some actors always feel as though the audition process, like that is like, man, you, Kyle Town, you don't have to kiss his ass, you know, I'm like, no, man, it's a business meeting. I'm going to show you what I'm going to do with the role. Hope you choose me so we can take this further. But just like, if I'm at IBM and I'm a consultant and I say, this is what's going to work best for your company. This is how we're going to do it. This is how I'm going to put it together, develop it, and this is how we're going to execute it. So thank you. Consider that with your board of directors, I'm out of here. Right? And that's the same thing with an actor. It's your opening and closing night. You know, my best, one of the highlights of my career. I had an audition with the great. Oh, man, I'm forgetting his name now. Such a highlight of my career. I forgot it. Oh, man. Bob Fosse. Bob Fosse, Great. Bob Fosse, right. And I went in, did the audition, and the guy was fumbling the stage manager. He took the book from him and read it with me. And then the next thing you know, man, Bob Fosse says, you're great, man. I love doing a scene with you. I'm gonna find something for you. You're too young for this. I said, all right. A couple of months later, I saw on the television, Bob Fosse died. Wow. Right? Wow. I'm like, oh, man. I never got to work with him. And then it stopped. I stopped myself. I said, wait a minute. I did work with him. It was an audience of two, but he and I got to work together. And I'll always remember that moment. Right? So that was my opening and closing night. And so that's how I take all auditions, you know, so that it's important to remember that's your opportunity to show your work. So it's beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

I was asking you about the auditions. Cause I know in Superman, like, you're playing editor in chief of a media outlet. You know, journalistic integrity and all those things are like the brand.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Perry White.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Perry White. What you come with. But, like, that's so on time from right now and all the conversations in the media. So how much do you bring into. From real life? Like, do you connect to real life when you do things or. Because I know somebody just back away.

[Wendell Pierce]

Especially with that, you know, and even if you don't get to use it in the film, I. I knew that, man. Newspapers right now are having a hard time, you know, and all of a sudden, how do you make it? And I said, that's kind of like the reason Perry White is always, you know, pissed off. You know, it's like, man, how am I, as an editor gonna keep this newspaper going? And then the biggest story of the universe falls into his lap, which is Superman, and he has an inkling that Clark Kent is Superman. I don't care what anybody says. Glasses ain't fooling me. And so it's. It's. I do take. Take that into account, you know, that he's probably an editor who's struggling to keep on top of things, especially with all these different platforms out there that are killing him, you know, that are killing him because nobody reads the papers anymore, you know?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

It's all. Everything's online, you know, and different platforms like this. So it. I use that to kind of develop Perry White. And what's great about it is that's something that's developing even more. They're thinking about doing a Daily Planet TV show extension of that with. Actually, it's around Jimmy. About Jimmy Olsen. So. Yeah. So, you know, that. That I always take. That's in the development of character also as you prepare.

[DJ Envy]

You spoke earlier about. Oh, my bad. Go ahead. Charlamagne.

[Wendell Pierce]

No, go ahead.

[DJ Envy]

You spoke earlier about Elsbeth.

[Wendell Pierce]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

How is it working with Stephen Colbert? He announced that project.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. You know, it was already in the works, so, you know, it's art imitating life. Life imitating art. It was. It's great. Stephen Colbert is fantastic. I didn't have. I didn't have much to do with him because he was out, right? So. But he's very talented. And that was something that we had already done by the time the news.

[DJ Envy]

Happened, because I know he had jokingly asked you for.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, I was on his show, and he said, oh, man, I would love to come on the show, you know, even as a corpse. I said, I'll work on that. You know, I did, you know, and it worked out. I'm not saying I'm gonna take all the credit, but I'm gonna take the credit. I got him on the show, and so it was really cool. And so, you know, whatever else happened was above my pay grade. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but it was cool.

[Podcast Host]

So, Trump, keep coming for us. Cause of Charlamagne. You can help us.

[DJ Envy]

I was gonna say I can play a corpse, too.

[Wendell Pierce]

No, man, listen, Charlamagne, you handle that right, man, you know.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Thank you.

[Wendell Pierce]

Principle is principle, you know what I'm saying? And actually, you are exercising your right of real having principle. And that's. That's something that, you know, that's something that is your true north. So I appreciate that. I appreciate that, my brother. And, you know, when you think about. You think about all the other times that in times like this, people have given us the playbook of how to stand on business, how to stand on principle. Think of Muhammad Ali, man. They marched down the street against Muhammad Ali. Right outside this building, up and down Broadway, the nights before y' all were born, when. When he was fighting, boy, they hated Muhammad Ali. They hated Muhammad Ali on the day he died. You couldn't find anyone who hated Muhammad Ali, right? Everyone feigned. Oh, you know, I always love Muhammad, right? But he stood on principle. I think of him and the stand that you're taking. I think of, you know, Martin Luther King in the Birmingham jail. I think of black folks in the North Church, you know, on New Year's Eve, waiting to get word about this emancipation that we hear they're going to sign and give us our freedom, right? There were people who were principled, going all the way back to the Revolutionary War. I give voice to one of the characters. I'm on Ken Burns American Revolution. It's coming out. It's coming out this month. And I give voice to this one brother, James, who the Patriots asked him, you're going to get involved. And even then, he said, yeah. Going to get involved. But there's this issue of slavery we really got to talk about. And even then, they said, let's. Okay, we're going to deal with that later. Let's just beat the British, right? And then the British offered a whole bunch of folks, we'll give you a freedom right now if you come to our side and help us. And they. They. They really. There were a whole bunch of black folks who said, I'm going to get my freedom. I'm going to help the British. And then they. They messed them. They messed over him, man. They said, we're going to give you land in the British Empire. You say that to somebody, they always think of London, right? And they gave him Nova Scotia. They gave them Nova Scotia, right? We're going to put you in the cold of Canada, you know, after the war. So black folks are getting from both ways in slavery with the patriots and with the British, you know, kind of being in the turncoats that they were and saying, help us, but then we're going to put you in one of the coldest, harshest places of our commonwealth. So I say all of that to say that you are part of a long line of people who stand on principle. So. And ultimately, we know that's. That's the thing that will help and that's the thing that will protect you, ultimately, because people will recognize that. So, man, thank you very much, brother. And that's the. That's the American aesthetic, you know, that's what the American aesthetic is all about, you know, so I've always heard you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Say that acting is truth telling. So. So when. When I listen to you talk just now, it just made me want. Wonder, when did you first realize that performance could be a form of liberation?

[Wendell Pierce]

In New Orleans, there was a group called the Free Southern Theater, and they used to perform during the Civil rights movement under the threat of violence. I remember the Klan told them, if y' all do that play, this is. We don't know if it's urban myth now, but if you do the play, you know, we're gonna kill you, right? So they did the play. Lights go down, everybody's waiting for the curtain call. And they got in the cars and they jetted. So the Klan never got them. But they would go on the marches during the Civil Rights movement and perform. And that was the company that got me interested. It was right as I was a kid. So my parents would go and see the play and come back and tell me about it. But then you, you know, it's One of those things that inspired me to be an actor and realize that entertainment is just a byproduct of the art. If you really want to go to a high level. Entertainment is just a byproduct of the art. The art is really understanding that. It's the forum where we collectively come together, reflect on who we are, good and bad, who do we want to be, what our values are, and then go out and act on those values. And that's the thing that motivates people. You know, I think I keep talking about the civil rights movement, but, you know, the song We Shall Overcome. To hear that song inspired people, right, to be a part of a movie. Selma, like I was. I stood on the EM Pettus Bridge, man. I looked down in the Alabama river and I said, you know, peace to the planet.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Charlamagne, the God here. Look, we all make mistakes, but owning up to them is the right thing to do. You know Degree Cool Rush deodorant. Well, last year they changed the formula and it did not go over well with their fans. Degree's whole thing is it turns up the sweat and odor protection when you turn up the effort. And good thing it does, because Cool Rush fans really turned up the effort to bring back the original formula. One guy even started an online petition and Degree listened. They admitted they effed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back. And it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. It's back in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. There's a reason why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. It's the same reason why why people were not happy when it changed. So if you never tried it, it might be a good time to see what the fuss is about. Head to your local Walmart or Target to try the OG Degree Cool Rush for yourself.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Wendell Pierce]

Souls say, tell my story. Don't forget me. Right? Don't forget me. And think about that, man. Men and women in the moment before their death, looking at the barrel of a gun held by one of their neighbors, saying, man, don't let my death be in vain. You see those pictures of people right before they're lynched, you know, and this one brother, there's that one haunting image of this brother just cut up and lashed and beaten naked right before he's lynched. And he's looking dead into the lens, and it's as if he's looking at us in the future saying, remember this. Remember me. Don't let my death be in vain. So when you stand on principle like that, you are honoring them. Don't let their death be in vain. Because we're not going to let anyone just try to sell us a bill of goods and not be truthful and not tell us that, you know, not try to tell us that we're going to make chicken salad out of that chicken shit.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You gonna have me saying that, man.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, Mat. That's what it is. When they ask you about tariffs, say, yeah, that's you trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Yeah, that's cool.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What's the difference between visibility and representation and which one matters more to you at this point in your life?

[Wendell Pierce]

You always want. You always want to be impactful. So representation is real important. But I don't sleep on visibility. But you can't. You can't just. That can't just be the sole purpose of why you want to be out there, you know, because that means you'll do anything for that.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

You know, you do anything for that, man. I see. You know. You know, that's why everybody has a podcast. Everybody's, you know. You know, man, everybody's a content creator, where they came up with a phrase for it and everything. I'm a content creator. You know, I'm. I'm an independent journalist. That's the other one. I'm an independent journalist. Actually, that one's kind of hip because, you know, you could be doing. You could be getting away with a whole bunch of stuff. And you're like, I'm an independent journalist. And actually that independence forces you to be more principled with your journalism. Right. The only thing that will give me the power or that visibility is if I'm uniquely a journalist, because so many media companies are compromising that now just to stay out of, you know, be dodging bullets and at the same time promote other propaganda. But so visibility is important. If I had to give up, when I'll give up the visibility for representation, because I know that that is impactful, that, you know, how many times are we hearing about people for the first time we didn't know were so impactful in. In people's lives until later because someone said, no, you. You've. You've been sleeping on this person, right? You. You don't know about so and so or you don't know. You know, in your game, man, you know, you hear about that producer, you go, man, yeah, you know about all the cats who were coming up in the Bronx and the music, hip hop was happening and all of that. But, hey, man, this cat was the one who's the best DJ out there, right? And so you start to hear that. And so that's because he was truthful. And the representation is the thing that cannot be denied. And this is going to impact someone who ultimately, that'll give you the visibility. It may be delayed. It's just like the Wire, you know, everybody was sleeping on it when it was on air. Now 20 years later is still impactful. Right. Because the representation was there, you know, and we never were nominated for an Emmy. That's crazy.

[DJ Envy]

Wow.

[Wendell Pierce]

Never nominated for an Emmy. Never nominated for an Emmy. None of the performances nominated for an Emmy, you know, and we could go down the line, performance after performance after performance. We had the repertory company of some of the best actors in the game.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

And so that just goes to show you, you know, but ultimately, somebody recognized it and said it's deserving of the Peabody Award. Right. So you are making an impact, you know, so I'll take representation over visibility.

[Podcast Host]

Your work is so impactful, though. And, like, what's happening in media right now is like, anybody who is, like, you know, standing, like you said, ten toes down, Right. Like the American Revolution series that you talked about, that's on pbs.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, that's going to be on pbs. Ken Burns, the American Revolution.

[Podcast Host]

Is that because I've been seeing so much stuff about NPR and PBS with the Trump administration, like, perfect example, perfect.

[Wendell Pierce]

Example of representation being important. We're living in a time where funding is being cut. The corporation of public broadcasting no longer exists. Just think about that. Just think about that. PBS and NPR are going to be gone. And that's because in all coups, you take over the media first so you can control the propaganda. And a part of it is silencing those you feel as though are going to shed light on your criminality. Right? And that's, that's the thing that is so important to make sure that you get out there and something like that. The American Revolution. Think of all the Ken Burns Civil War, the Vietnam War, the recent one he did with country music, you know, to show, show the, the, to show the roots of, of country music and how impactful it was and how, you know, multi racial it was, you know, so all of that doesn't have a platform, you know, and so you have to fight against that. I mean, that's why, you know, it's important to, to support organizations and institutions that will be able to get. Give voice to the voiceless, give a stage, you know, an opportunity to folks, you know, and that's why as an artist, you understand, you know, that this forum is where we reflect on who we are, who we hope to be. But at the same time, as an advocate, I feel as though the social justice movement of the 21st century is economic development. And that's why at this time and in this moment, when there's so much funding pulling back and opportunities are taken away, it's important to create those opportunities. And that's why right now I'm very proud of something that we're announcing and launching. It's a great segue into that, which is the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color Fund, which I have been a part of creating to give opportunities to those legacy theaters who have been in the creative cultural economy of this city of New York for over 25 years. And also those new companies who are giving that legacy a chance to live on. And that's what this fund is going to fund their productions and marketing. And it's a $10 million commitment that we're announcing today. The Coalition. Wow. The Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color. It's a partnership that I am giving my full throated endorsement to the Caesar's Palace Times Squared project, which is a hotel in Casino. I'm very, I'm very honored that they are giving a commitment to making sure that those cultural institutions like that are sustained going into the future. So they listen to my proposal of supporting companies like the Negro Ensemble Company and the Billie Holiday Theater and the Black Spectrum Theater and New Heritage Theater Group who have been around since, you know, for 25, 30, 40, 50 years, even serving communities of color with theater. They inspired me to be an actor when I was a little boy reading about them in New Orleans, right. And then came up here and so proud to now join with, with jay Z&ROC Nation and SL Green and Caesars Gaming and Caesars Entertainment to bring this coalition together. And that's why they are building this project. But you know, you can do well and do good and they understand that this project is about making sure that the community has some input and they're servicing the community. And this is something that I'm proud of. It's gonna be right in the middle of Broadway and that in the Broadway community is at the, is the pinnacle of theater in New York and the cultural economy. And so I'm proud to be a part of that. I'm proud to launch this fund today and give my full throated endorsement of Caesar's Palace, Times Square.

[DJ Envy]

That's amazing.

[Wendell Pierce]

Is the fun.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Congratulations.

[Wendell Pierce]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Is the fun the sole reason you wanted to support the bid for ROC Nation and SL Green, Caesar Palace?

[Wendell Pierce]

I wanted to support it. First of all, I'm an artist, right? First of all, I'm an artist. And to see these companies that should be, who aren't getting the attention they deserve, who are underfunded in my eyes, who should, who have given and created a legacy that has to be sustained, that was the most important thing to me as an advocate. You know, I'm from New Orleans. Twenty years ago we were destroyed by Katrina. And the one thing I learned is the social justice movement for the 21st century is economic development and to. That's the way you build sustainability. That's how you protect communities and all. And one of the reasons I support this is because this is clearly an economic engine that's going to develop Times Square, that's going to bring multitudes of jobs. You know, it's going to have a halo effect of affecting all the businesses around Times Square. And at the same time, think of all the people that come in that's going to be coming to see, coming to be a part of Caesars and to stay at the hotel and go to the casino. That's more of an influx of people who are coming to, to Broadway, you know, almost as projected to be Almost, you know, 800,000 more people who are going to be coming to Broadway. Now take these companies who never get the attention, who never get the real quality marketing that this is going to present this. 65 million people are part of this rewards program that they're going to have access to. There's going to be child care. So you know, the development has said we're going to really put, put our, put our belief into action. Childcare for Broadway workers. There's going to be debt relief, student debt relief, medical debt relief, you know, health relief. And I think that's important. That's. I'm, I'm a union man. So my union, Actors Equity is supporting it, Local 802, which is a musicians union. So this is. Now you see a part of me as a producer, right? You know, I'm a Tony Award winning producer. So I understand here's an opportunity where art meets commerce. And so we understand the art, that's the thing that everyone shares. We have a vision of how art can impact community. We may have differences on how we build that economic engine and the commerce that will support that, but we have commonality there. But the economic engine that a project like this brings, I've seen it in New Orleans post Katrina. I've seen this particular company, Caesars in New Orleans and how people had the same concerns about whether or not we should have this casino right in the French Quarter. You know, this is the heart of our culture and it has been more than beneficial. It has developed the French Quarter, it has brought jobs there, it has brought more visitors there. So this is for me an economic engine. And I feel as though the 21st century social justice movement starts with an economic development. And especially in a time when so much is being cut back, we have to exercise our right of self determination. So I challenge the partnership to say I'm an artist. These are the companies that I want to support. And if you want to reach out to the community, I ask you to support them too. And they said we're willing to do that, man.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Blame Roc Nation for all of that. And as you said earlier, Wendell, that's why representation is important. Because you have a company like ROC Nation who cares about the communities like Manhattan Plaza in that area. They care about the folks on Broadway. They listen to people like yourself and they brought something to the table to benefit those people.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, man, listen, you talk about Manhattan plaza, there's a $15 million commitment there. You know, there's $20 million going towards kids and families and seniors being able to afford the tickets of Broadway. They're subsidizing ticket purchases like that. So I tell people all the time, never lose the ability to, to have your concerns and your Questions. Never, never lose the ability to be offended. And so challenge, challenge yourself and challenge anyone who wants to come and do a development like Caesars in Times Square and say, this is what I expect. And they've heard that and they're answering that. Security, sanitation, infrastructure around it, jobs in that area, the development of what the engine will bring to the table. They are, they are showing you the impact that it can have, the economic engine. And that's why I feel comfortable doing it. I've seen it done with this particular company in New Orleans. I know how important it is that a company like the Negro Ensemble Company is started by Douglas Turner Ward and Robert Hooks and so many people. The last time I saw them in the theater that they had was when I was in school in like 1982. It was a second production of a play called A Soldier's Play, had a young actor in it, Denzel Washington, Adolph Caesar was playing the sergeant. And they haven't had a play on Broadway since Ceremonies in Dark Old Men, which was like 1971. It's because they haven't had the opportunity of marketing and funding. So this is a chance. I wanted to bring an infusion of sustainability to them because they should have their place at the pinnacle of our cultural economy in New York. And that's, and that's what this fund is all about. The coalition of legacy theaters of color. And that's what this fund is going to be built on. And that's what we're going to be building to make sure that they get the recognition, have the sustainability and have the marketing and funding that is needed. And that's the commitment that the Caesars partnership is bringing. And I'm partnering with them to make sure that it's sustainable.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Blame ROC Nation.

[DJ Envy]

If the, if the proposal for the casino is, you know, is denied, what does that, how would that impact the CLTC fund?

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. Means it doesn't happen initially because, you know, it means it doesn't happen. But then we, we, we, we go on and we'll, you know, the advocacy doesn't stop, you know, and we'll look for ways to, to fund it initially. And, you know, I will challenge those who are part of the partnership to say, even though we lost this, which I don't think they'll lose, but we will find a way to still build the fund. I'm still going to be committed to it. This is something that, you know, is a long time commitment for me.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

What do you say to people who still, after everything you just talked to us about right. Who still say this is bad for Broadway. Broadway just started its uptick since the pandemic, and now you're bringing something that will, like, be against the business. Right?

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. First of all, I say take your emotions out of it and let's look at it like business, folks. Let's look at the spreadsheet. Do you want to have 65 million people with their eyes on your business in marketing? Do you want to bring in, on average 800,000 more people to. To your business? Do you want to increase that pool? Do you want to have cross marketing with. With the theaters that are going to be around there? The. The theaters will be a part of our fund. There's a rewards program that Caesars has that directly to the businesses. That will be a part of the rewards program where, you know, that is direct dollars to the business. It's a discount to the members of the rewards program. But that discount is paid for directly from the seat from Caesars. And so it is not a discount to those theaters. So when it comes to marketing, you can't buy marketing at this level. When it comes to extending your pool of perspective, clients, as you say, or you're the people who are going to be going into the theater, you. You can't buy that level of. Of influx. So I tell people all the time, your concerns are valid, your questions are valid. But as I say to my community in New Orleans, because I was the. I was bringing back my neighborhood, which is now on the national register of historic Places, the price you have to pay for complaint is bring a solution to the table. We have a solution to the table. Now where's yours? Where is your economic impact of $250 million to the community around you in security, sanitation, health care, an economic engine for all the businesses, employment. The other thing that we have is a job fair for when you are unemployed. That the Broadway workers on a monthly basis can come to Caesars for a job fair. The job fair. Student debt relief, medical debt relief, housing rental relief. So that's our solutions to the table. That's our answers to your complaint. We're yours.

[Podcast Host]

That was a response. Do you feel like you get. Go ahead, Sharla.

[Wendell Pierce]

Oh, go ahead, Lauren.

[Podcast Host]

No, you go.

[Wendell Pierce]

No, you go. No, go ahead.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know if mine shifted a bit, but I'm just sitting here, like, thinking about, you know, what you're doing right now with the. The fund, everything we talked about with your career and, like, the roles that you've had. And I don't know, do you Feel like you get your flowers enough for, like, just impact, but also, like, just the path that you're paving for other artists, not even just actors, but artists in general who really want to stand for substance.

[Wendell Pierce]

I have. I've been given a great blessing to know and meet, I should say, just meeting Ozzie Davis, Ruby Dee, Sidney Poitier, Harold Belafonte, Mary Alice, folks who have inspired me as an artist who were like a part of that Moses generation, they give you the gift of their talent and their time and inspiration. And that Moses generation hands you this baton as a part of the Joshua generation, and you take that on. And as they have passed on, feeling that responsibility to them, I'm standing on their shoulders. That's my flowers. That's my flowers. I'll never forget meeting Sidney Poitier. He came to a play I was doing. I was doing Fences in Pasadena. And, man, they said, you know, he's here. And he. I ran to my dressing room and took off my costume. I couldn't wait to meet the man. I opened my door and he was standing in the threshold.

[DJ Envy]

Wow.

[Wendell Pierce]

And I just burst into tears. I tear up thinking about it now. And I just said, thank you. Thank you for everything you've given me. You've changed my life. This is the only moment I'm gonna have with you. I just want to you thank. Thank you. God is going to bless you because you have impacted so many people and made so much. And he said, oh, man, thank you so much, man. You don't have to. And I said, and. But that says an artist. I just remember you as a man. There's a famous interview when he lands, and he says, you're asking me all these questions. You haven't said anything about. Ask me a question about being a father, about being a husband, about being a man by a black man. You insult me. And assuming that I am only supposed to answer these certain things in a box. And. And I was able to tell him that and share that with him. And that's my flowers. That's my flowers. That's where I tell all the folks who want to be content creators, you know, ready, looking for that likes, you know, if you give more, that's your. Like, you know, don't look just if. The more you give, that's the thing. That's, you know, years from now, you'll be able to have some sense of accomplishment. And that's. That's what this is all about. You know, that's the thing that motivates me as an artist. And as an activist, I learned 20 years ago, I said, 20 years from now, some kid is going to ask me in New Orleans darkest hour, what did you do? And I wanted to be able to have an answer. And I did. I put together a resident, initiated redevelopment of Pontchartrain park, the neighborhood I grew up in. And brick by brick, house by house, block by block, we rebuilt our neighborhood. And it's on the National Register of Historic places. So now, 20 years later, I can say, this is what I did, kid. Right? Go look at that market right there. That's what we did together. Now I can hand that baton off to you. That's my flowers, right? That's my flowers. And that's why I'm doing it with these theaters, man. You know, they, they inspired me. I am only here because of them. Is this the most uncool interview on Breakfast Club or what? I love it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

This one of the most insightful ones. What you just said is why I love these type of conversations. Because 20 years from now, it's going to be some kid watching this interview and learning so much from your wisdom.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah, well, thank you, man. That's, you know, first of all, the platform that you give folks is so valuable and so important. And what are you guys doing is impactful too. So that's why I'm honored to be here.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I just got a couple more questions. You know, when I think about your work, right, like you've, you've done a lot of work that has dealt with systems from poverty to policing to housing. How do you as a black man, stay hopeful when the systems seem not to change?

[Wendell Pierce]

Um, because I know, I understand the power of exercising and practicing radical self care. Practice radical self care. And how, how dare I lose faith or lose hope or optimism as you think of those who were chained in the bottom of those ships, who were thrown overboard, chained together to their death. How dare you, after centuries of folks of your family who had no reason to hope, but they still found a way to give vision and find joy in their humanity. I mean, think about it, think about it. How, how dare we at any moment, especially where we are right now, lose hope? Because what happens is, I think about, I, you know, I came back New Year's Eve, I spent in Accra, Ghana, which is really hip. You know, in 2020, they started the year of the Return and they have that Afro Future concert and they have the biggest, the biggest New Year's Eve party on the beach, man. It literally had a fireworks display that went on for a half an hour. And I was just like. People were like, that's enough. We don't want no more fireworks. You know, I never thought I'd get tired of fireworks, but I was thinking about all the folks, all the kids that I want to have an impact on if I could just bring them here. Because the one thing. Just a trip to Africa. First of all, let's get out of this whole idea of one day before I die, I was going to make it to the motherland. No, man. Next weekend. Get on the plane and go for the weekend and come back. Right, right. That's a part of that disconnect. The poorest person here is a rich man on the continent. The poorest person here is a rich man on the continent. Once they see that sort of poverty and go, oh, okay, wait a minute. Then you go there, and I see so many people like, it's not how much we lost in the Middle Passage, it's how much we held onto. So you go, wait a minute. I know you. That looks just like Buki. You know, I was in Uganda. I was in Uganda at the National Theater, and they were speaking their language. I forget which dialect or tribe. And they said. I said, man, Robert Zaramonga. I said, robert, he was the artistic director, the National Theater of Uganda and Kampala. What's up, Robert? I know you look at the Breakfast Club. What's up, man? And I said. I said, wow, man. I said, wow. We do that, too. I can't believe we held on to that, man. I was all emotional. Black people held on to it, man, because, you know, you go, I can't believe it, man. What? Oh, that girl lost all her money. He said, Wendell. He goes, yes, you held on to it. But it's not just an expression. That's a written word.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Peace to the planet. Charlamagne. Tha God here. Look, we all make mistakes, but owning up to them is the right thing to do. You know Degree Cool Rush deodorant. Well, last year they changed the formula, and it did not go over well with their fans. Degree's whole thing is it turns up the sweat and odor protection when you turn up the effort. And good thing it does, because Cool Rush fans really turned up the effort to bring back the original formula. One guy even started an online petition. And degree Listen, they admitted they effed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back. And it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. It's back in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. There's a reason why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. It's the same reason why people were not happy when it changed. So if you never tried it, it might be a good time to see what the fuss is about. Head to your local Walmart or Target to try the OG degree. Cool rush for yourself.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Wendell Pierce]

Find out [e-mail] for like disappointment and shame, right? You see a woman, oh man, they do something and you don't appreciate it and you go, oh, that's a, that's a shame. And you go, he goes, yeah. He said, no, that's a written word in our language. Right? That's why it sounds like that you held onto it, but you don't know what the language is because you cut off from the language. And I started to realize that there's so much of that that we don't know about. And I say that to say I don't lose hope because I just. Those kids need that epiphany, right? We are the violence in our community is. As a student of human behavior and you have psychologists on here, they could actually tell you better than I. Is a reflection of the depression, the mental anguish and depression and the trauma in our community. Right? Like you try to do everything right and buy the book and every step of the way someone is going to challenge you. Every step of the way, right? Put your house up for sale. It's a praise lore. Right? We put systems into place where education. You're not going to get the money you want right now. What this administration is going to do and administration is like it. We're going to take this public money that's supposed to be set aside for public education. Right. White flight has happened from our public education and kind of give it to them to subsidize their private education. Well, we're going to shut down the Department of Energy, the Department of Education. Right. But if so, at every step of the way. And that causes trauma, man.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

You get tired of it and you're angry, and so therefore, conflict resolution isn't. Hey, hold on. Let's talk about this. I see you as myself now. It's like you just lash out, right? So conflict resolution becomes vital. So as a student of human behavior, you just want to give people instances of epiphany and hope. So I always think, man, to take those kids just a trip to Africa and see it. Right. That's why it's so important to travel and have experience and different experiences and say that this is a part of who you are in your humanity. It doesn't even have to be that just to go, hey, we're going to spend a day in the park and learn about grass, different grasses. What does that have to do with anything, Mr. Pierce? It has everything to do with you. Find some interest in it, or at least find out. I don't like this. That's an epiphany, too. You know something? I don't want to spend my time trying to discern the different blades of grass. I want to do something else. So what do you want to do now? Okay, now let me make that decision. Now you're thinking, so that's the sort of work, the personal work that would be able to change systems. Then you could have. Then you can really have an impact. The reason we don't change the systems is because people are trying to spend so much time to just stay in the system. Right? So I'm not going to do anything to kick me out. That's why when people say, I'm not going to run for Senate anymore, and then all of a sudden, you know, Senator Tillis is now speaking truth. Right? It's like, man, you've been here for 20 years now that, you know, you don't have to try to kiss ass to get somebody's vote now. Now you're going to say, oh, okay, I want somebody to. I want somebody to get in the government, seeing this is a thing that our president is good at, and I don't support him. You know, a lot of, you know. But the one thing I got to say is there's A certain way you behave when you have you money, right? You're like, I don't have to do anything to kowtow to you. I don't have to kiss your ass. I don't have to do anything, right? Because it's not going to affect me. Because if, you know, if you, if you cut me off tomorrow, I'm cool because I, I got some chips in my pocket. I'm good. That's an old term I got showing my age. I got some, I'm stacking chips. That's like a. Oh, that. But you know, then, you know, so, so when, so when he starts to get a little protective like we don't need to put out them files, then, you know, then, you know, he doesn't have you money, doesn't have anything to protect him. I'm scared of this.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Wendell Pierce]

You know, so that's a long way to get around to exercise radical self care. And when you do that, then your contribution to the dynamic is different. You change the paradigm then, and that's how you change the system. That was a, a long winded.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You know, man, we love these answers, man.

[Wendell Pierce]

Crazy.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Stop saying that.

[Wendell Pierce]

But that's how you change it. That's how you change it. You know, don't be. Exercise radical self care and stand on principle, bro. You know what I'm saying? That's what it is. That's. That's the people we remember. That's the people we remember, right? So I think that's how we change the system. That's how we change the system. I went on a barbershop tour during a campaign, right? Which campaign? The last Kamala. I actually did it on my own. Everybody thought. And then, you know, I was saying, hey man, be selfish. I want you, I want you to challenge me and say, this is what I want. And then I can show you everything in the platform that'll service you, right? So it was the barbershop too. I was, I remember going to Milwaukee and everything. The brother said, man, what, you know, I don't think, you know, they haven't done for me nothing. I said, man, let's just go down the list of everything we. As much as we hate the government, everything we love about the government. A social, Social Security. We got money set aside for disability and you know, a lot of people on disability. The hustle of disability sometimes, right? Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Right. Everything you think about, my political party gave. You can't name anything that people care about in this country, right? That is saying this is Important to us. That was a part of government that came from that other side. Those who do not have our best interests at heart. Because the other side was always about keeping people ignorant of the game. So we can all make a lot of money because we will always be able to hustle the. If you vote for me, you might become a member of the rich white boy club. That is the thing. That is the carrot on the stick that the right has always been good at messaging. They haven't provided anything, you know, and that seems like a radical idea. But, you know, that's. I forgot the question now. I went down a rabbit hole. But.

[DJ Envy]

No, but Charlemagne say all the time they write at messaging, like, the right is always good at messaging.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Messaging.

[Wendell Pierce]

Yeah. So. But, yeah, so I think the way you change the system. The way you change the system is first of all, be authentic and truthful and not care about. I look forward to politicians who say, you know something, that was wrong. Right? That was wrong. We shouldn't have said that. Folks should be able to say right now, even defund the police. That was the wrong messaging. We knew what we wanted. We didn't want all this money going into militaristic policing. So redistribute the wealth of the or. Or. Redirect. Redirect the resources or something. We should have said something else. We learned it in the 60s. Burn, baby, burn. That did not win US elections. You know, but the one thing I got. Wait, I got to give the right. They're due. And the last person you were expected from, Richard Nixon started the epa. Richard Nixon started the epa. And that is something we got to give him credit for. And we should tell the right. One of your. One of the pillars of your philosophy started the epa. So why are you going against it now? Richard Nixon started the epa. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They'll probably say he was wrong.

[Wendell Pierce]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. He said, yeah. Then they'll bring up Watergate. Right, Exactly.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I wanted to ask you a couple more questions.

[Wendell Pierce]

Okay.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You're such a moral compass, right? And it seems like in some roles you're casted as a moral compass too. In real life, who keeps you honest and centered.

[Wendell Pierce]

I love the books of Albert Murray, the Omni American. The Omni Americans is one of my favorite books. Just under. He was a great philosopher. I was able to meet him. I grew up. We went to Marcellus and great jazz trumpet player and all. And we would go up and talk to Mr. Murray, Albert Murray, man. Albert Murray really taught me the understanding of what is your contribution to the human Diaspora. Then he also taught me that there's a uniqueness to our contribution to the human diaspora as black folk. Right. We are also why the book is the Omni Americans. The best demonstration of the American aesthetic when it comes to, like, jazz. Freedom within form. To improvise a solo while you honor the structure of the song is an example of the American aesthetic. We are a nation of laws, but we have to be adaptable and be able to do improv and honor that. Where the two can coexist, where you can honor the form, but at the same time exercise your right as an individual to be as individual as you can be and to have that duality came from our community. That's Was the creation. That's the creation of jazz. That's the creation of hip hop. Right? Hip hop was always about, you know, you're taking this, you know, it was always about the dj. I'm old enough to remember when. About the dj.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Wendell Pierce]

And the hype man was just to come to see the dj, and then he started more and more and more becoming the front, right? And then somebody would kick out the plug from the street lamp and the party's over. But that. That's. That's what it's about, you know. But Albert Murray teaches me that. That's why I strengthened his philosophy of understanding that there's a discussion of the Western civilization, of the contributions of man and woman. And don't forget the unique contribution that our experience, unique experience, has given to that. Right. And once. And once you understand that, then you can appreciate all the variations of it, that there's a uniqueness to someone who has our experience and the Caribbean experience, or our experience, Caribbean experience in the African experience. Africa. And understand the connection of all that. And those are the Omni Americans. That's been the great contribution. And that's why so many cultures, you know, admire it, pretend that they don't and. And. But emulate it, you know, and that. And that. Albert Murray, that's the man. That's the man. Read his books, man. Read the Omni Americans. It's great, great book. And that keeps me on track. That gives me, you know, that helps fight through all the craziness and stuff too, you know, because it's by design to separate you, right? When you hear the arguments of. I remember I was living in Budapest and I came back and I was like, who these Ados people are? You know, it was Ados. Roland Martin called me and said, boy, they gonna come after you. I'm like, this makes no sense. What you talking about? We not connected. I'm just. And now it's FBA or whatever. And you notice it only comes up around election time. So you're sitting there going, somebody is paying this to go forward, is promoting this. And what's around this time is people get in where they fit in, and when they start making money, they start, you know, listen, man, I'm gonna believe it. I'm gonna embrace it. I'll never forget Rush Limbaugh mentioned on his show, oh, man. That, you know, those liberals are gonna kill Clarence Thomas and everything. And. But I like that actor playing Clarence Thomas, Wendell Pierce. I really like him. So I reached out to him, I said, you know, I wanted to have dialogue, right? I said, it doesn't have to be on the show. You know, I appreciate it. And his whole thing, they came back and it was just like, no, man, we, we know you support Obama. We know publicly you are liberal, and it wouldn't be a good look. I was just like, man, you make $100 million a year. What does this matter? Let's have a real conversation. And actually, wow, it taught me something about Clarence Thomas, too. Clarence Thomas and I literally almost had the same lives right from the South. Black Catholic, grandparents were farmers. Education was real important to him, important to the family. We go to college. Clarence Thomas goes to college. Clarence Thomas was a radical, radical man. His afro is picking his hair. He's going on, on protest, you know, almost like a black Panther, and goes to law school. And all he wants to do is come back to Savannah and practice law. And it's at that point that he's completely rejected. Right. And shows you how insidious racism can be. How insidious racism can be. He was just like, but I have a Yale law degree. You know, I'm, I'm better than most of the partners in these old, you know, old line law firms. Yeah, they say, yeah, but we still don't want you. Right? And he didn't take it as, wow, man, look how racist they are. He said, well, it must be because they think less of my degree. So affirmative action is awful. I was just like, wait, what? What? You're not going to blame them at all? No, I'm going to blame everything that gave me an opportunity to get there. And then the only job he could get was with the Republican ad in the, in the Midwest. And so. And then he was on track. But I actually think Clarence Thomas is a perfect example of how insidious racism can be, because I think he is really thinking Like, I'm giving you the best of humanity and I'm still being rejected. And it has developed, I think, a self hate in him, a self hate of all of that, you know?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I feel like sometimes too, I think this goes back to Charlamagne's questions about, like, you keeping hope alive throughout all your work. It can make you feel like just things aren't ever, ever gonna change. Like, you know, like you. No matter what you do, what you accomplish, what you try to do, there's always someone that's like, mm, mm.

[Wendell Pierce]

But you have so many examples of when it does change and how it feels when you just think of just your education journey. You know, think about graduation. There were times, you know, when you had a paper due or you were taking a test and you're like, man, I'm just not going to get through this. You ultimately do when you know, when you find people who support you where you least expect it, you know, people you assume were against you, like, I'm going to recognize your excellence. There are so many of those times also that should embolden you, that should give you encouragement. The mistake that we make is we think that once we accomplish something, we accomplish a change. That is done, the work is done. But it's like a chronic disease, right? It's like a chronic disease. You have to be ever vigilant. We never thought that in 2025 we would have to protect the Voting Rights bill or reconstitute it because they've taken out Section 4, which actually protects you, gives you all the voting rights protections. They've actually taken that out. So you have to be ever vigilant to make sure that it works for you. Right. That's where the hope comes in. Right. Because you know that there were those who do not have our best interest at heart. And you have to do everything possible to. To give yourself that hope. Right. And that's what I mean by exercising radical self care, doing the things necessary that you know are necessary to get you there and don't get distracted by trying to convince something, trying to convince someone who does not have your best interest at heart. That's just on a personal level. And you translate that into a larger level, too.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

This is My last question. Mr. Pierce, you've been very generous with your time, so thank you. How do you define cultural legacy and who are you building yours for?

[Wendell Pierce]

Alva Murray, once again, the man teaches you what culture is. Culture is a people intersecting with life itself. The literal intersection of how people deal with life is culture, how they Deal with pain and joy, death and life, development, enlightenment. That is culture. And when you. When you understand that ro and entertainment is a byproduct of that, when you understand that's what the culture is, that's what the definition of culture is, you are keenly aware of. Of how it is a exercise in futility. If you don't contribute to culture, you have to say, well, how is this going to bring some meaning to how we deal with this situation in life? Is it. Are we just making noise, talking gossip, or are we saying, hey, let's enlighten ourselves about this? What does this mean? This is how it's destructive, and how can we make this constructive? That's cultural legacy. It's, I think, of the culinary arts of New Orleans, what gumbo is all about. The scraps from the table mixed with flour and burning flour in some oil and getting your roux going. The holy trinity of celery, onions and bell pepper chopped up. And that's going to be my seasoning. And I'm going to build this from nothing and build it into a dish that is known around the world. Gumbo. Right. And that's a metaphor for what we need to. How we can look at it. So I have nothing. So how am I going to make an impact on how we literally live our lives? I'm going to give sustenance, we're going to feed ourselves, and at the same time, be as creative with what we do that people are going to remember it. That's what gumbo's all about. You know, it's like when a guy's shooting his shot, he's like, man, you know, you still say shooting your shot.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, that's actually the kids we used to have.

[Wendell Pierce]

That's old school, too. So just like, you know, you try to. You trying to get that person's interest in you at the same time trying to find out what is it about them. Right. The two happening at the same time. Right. If you're saying, hey, man, I want to become something, not only are you interested in it, but how am I going to change the game and then be a student of the game and not be jealous of somebody who does it better than me, but actually go, man, I need to. I need to get there. That is the development of culture, and that's how you leave a cultural impact. For me, as an artist, I'm trying to do that as an artist, but I'm also trying to do that as an advocate. Right? That is what, you know, supporting institutions that have legacy is all about. And that's the impact that I hope to have that, you know, to build and sustain companies who have built and built something in me and in my heart. Right. These companies have given me encouragement. They have given me vision, and I want to make sure that they're sustained and go into the future. Right. Because they motivated me when I was younger and I was starting my career. That's what culture is. That's what cultural legacy is all about. And having that cultural impact is entertaining. Yes. People will always remember the joy of being entertained by the culture that you create. But also it has to bring some insightfulness and impact their lives long after. Right. I'm always thinking of the words of Arthur Miller that says there's a certain immortality in the theater, not given by monuments or books, but with the knowledge an actor takes with them until their dying day. That in a dusty theater, on a stage, he cast the shadow of a person who was not himself, but all the distillation of everything he has ever seen and all the unsung heart songs that the common man feels but never utters, he gives voice to. And in doing that, he joins the ages. I'm trying to join the ages. Giving voice to the voiceless. That's cultural legacy, and that's cultural impact.

[DJ Envy]

And you sit up here talking about uncool. How the hell.

[Wendell Pierce]

What?

[DJ Envy]

How is this uncool?

[Wendell Pierce]

It's amazing. That's important.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Mr. Wendell Pierce, thank you, man. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for your insight. Thank you for your art. Thank you for your service to our people. Thank you for the coalition of legacy theaters of color. Thank you. Just thank you, brother.

[Wendell Pierce]

Thank you, man. I am so honored to be here at the Breakfast Club. It really is. It's a smile on my face. Smile on my face. I got some cachet now.

[DJ Envy]

As soon as they said you, I was like, she.

[Wendell Pierce]

Baltimore in the house, man. I love Baltimore. I love Baltimore.

[DJ Envy]

Thank you.

[Wendell Pierce]

Thank you to the Breakfast.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Thank you. It's Wendell Pierce. It's the Breakfast Club.

[Wendell Pierce]

Hold up. Every day I wake up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wake your ass up.

[Wendell Pierce]

The Breakfast Club.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Podcast Host]

This is an I Heart podcast.