Naked Sports: Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club – "Naked Sports: Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese"

Episode Information:

• Title: Naked Sports: Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Release Date: November 16, 2024
• Description: A deep dive into the burgeoning rivalry between women's college basketball stars Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, exploring its impact on the sport, media narratives, and cultural discussions.

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1. Introduction to the Rivalry

The episode kicks off with Jemele Hill reflecting on the tumultuous year of 2020, highlighting the dual impact of the pandemic and a racial renaissance. She introduces the central figures of the episode, Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, two standout players whose rivalry has become a focal point in women's basketball.

Jemele Hill [01:36]: "Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese were supernovas in the making. The masses were just late to the discovery."

2. Historical Context and Significance

Carrie Champion draws parallels between historic sports rivalries and the current dynamic between Clark and Reese, emphasizing the necessity of a "foil" in elevating star athletes.

Carrie Champion [03:10]: "The Superman needed Lex Luthor. The Batman needed the Joker... every great player needs a foil."

This section delves into how rivalries have historically propelled sports to new heights, citing examples like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in the NBA, and compares them to the Clark-Reese dynamic.

3. Impact on Women's Basketball and the WNBA

The hosts discuss the transformative effect Clark and Reese are having on women's basketball, noting a significant surge in viewership and interest.

Jemele Hill [04:42]: "Clark and Reese have expanded the horizons of the game... their on-court rivalry is what we all needed to push this country out of archaic archetypes."

Carrie Champion highlights how their performances are not just sports achievements but cultural milestones that challenge existing perceptions of female athletes.

4. Media Frenzy and Public Perception

The episode examines how media coverage has amplified the rivalry, often framing it within broader societal and cultural contexts, including race and gender dynamics.

Jemele Hill [10:20]: "The label of rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't. Because we love a rivalry in the NBA."

Sabrina Merchant provides insights into past media coverage of women's basketball, noting a shift in how stories are now being told with greater depth and attention.

5. Cultural and Racial Dynamics

A critical discussion ensues around the racial and cultural implications of the rivalry, particularly how Angel Reese's persona intersects with notions of Black womanhood and competitiveness.

Jemele Hill [40:21]: "Black athletes and white athletes do the same thing, and it's looked at very differently. With Angel Reese, I was like, here we go. Like, so as a black person, I'm like, now I got to ride for you."

This segment underscores the additional layers of complexity in how female athletes are perceived and portrayed in the media, especially those from marginalized communities.

6. Player Perspectives and Personalities

Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark share their personal experiences and motivations, providing a humanizing glimpse into their competitive spirits and mutual respect.

Caitlin Clark [37:20]: "The game is literally slowed down in her mind... she does have a special talent."
Angel Reese [38:17]: "Caitlin continues to get better and better, and her moments become more and more viral."

Their narratives emphasize resilience, passion, and the drive to excel, highlighting how their personal journeys contribute to the broader story of women's basketball.

7. The Evolution of Fan Engagement

Kelsey Plum and Sarah Spain discuss how the rivalry has reshaped fan engagement, attracting new audiences while also provoking strong emotions among long-time supporters.

Kelsey Plum [31:53]: "You can have a conversation on your show and you can get people fired up about it without ever having to do the work."

They explore the challenges and opportunities in maintaining fan interest and fostering a healthy competitive environment that benefits the sport.

8. Future Implications and Legacy

The hosts speculate on the long-term effects of the Clark-Reese rivalry, contemplating its role in shaping the future of women's basketball and inspiring the next generation of athletes.

Jemele Hill [35:36]: "Caitlin Clark is a game changer, and she's brought so many new eyes to the WNBA."

They discuss potential milestones, such as championships and MVP awards, and how these achievements could further cement their legacies within the sport.

9. Conclusion

The episode wraps up by summarizing the profound impact Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese are having on women's basketball, not just as athletes but as cultural icons challenging and redefining societal norms.

Carrie Champion [41:06]: "It's not about us, but it is about us... the beauty of sports is seeing the athletes go on the journey."

The hosts express optimism for the continued growth and visibility of women's sports, thanks in large part to the compelling narratives crafted by athletes like Clark and Reese.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jemele Hill [01:36]: "Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese were supernovas in the making. The masses were just late to the discovery."
• Carrie Champion [03:10]: "The Superman needed Lex Luthor. The Batman needed the Joker... every great player needs a foil."
• Jemele Hill [10:20]: "The label of rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't. Because we love a rivalry in the NBA."
• Angel Reese [38:17]: "Caitlin continues to get better and better, and her moments become more and more viral."
• Caitlin Clark [37:20]: "The game is literally slowed down in her mind... she does have a special talent."

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Conclusion: This episode of "The Breakfast Club" provides an insightful exploration into the rivalry between Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, highlighting its significance in elevating women's basketball and challenging cultural stereotypes. Through in-depth discussions, player perspectives, and analysis of media narratives, the podcast underscores the transformative power of sports rivalries in shaping both the athletes involved and the broader societal landscape.

Transcript

[Tyla]

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[Carrie Champion]

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[Jemele Hill]

For me, the year 2020 presents an alchemy of highlights and lowlights. The pandemic and the ensuing shutdown of the country were alarming. Yet simultaneously, there was this racial renaissance. It prompted this nation to confront its ugly history of white versus Black. And while the world was working to find its way back to normal, there were two young women who had graduated high school that very year, preparing to embark on their collegiate and athletic careers. Both highly touted players from two different backgrounds, two different playing styles, but arguably the same agenda to be the best. Because of COVID and different restrictions across the country and if we're honest, lack of interest, the world wasn't focused on women's college basketball. So for the masses, Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese seemingly became famous overnight. However, as we find out in this series, Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese were supernovas in the making. The masses were just late to the discovery. Clark and Riis clearly represent so much more than basketball. They represent resilience, possibility and Resistance. Dare I say their on the court rivalry is what we all needed to push this country out of archaic archetypes that surround the game and filter the way we see women's sports in general. Clark and Reese have expanded the horizons of the game in ways that my humble mind now envisioned. So how did we reach this point? Allow me to tell you a story.

[Carrie Champion]

The Superman needed Lex Luthor. The Batman needed the Joker. And I don't mean to put Angel Reese in some kind of villainous role because I don't consider her a villain. But I think every great player needs a foil.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The reason why we watching women's basketball.

[Carrie Champion]

Is not just because of one person. It's because of me too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You know, I don't think there should be any criticism for what she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game was going on.

[Kelsey Plum]

But the story became more compelling and the desire to watch and talk about it became more compelling when she had a foil. Angel won a national championship. She has 4 million plus followers. She's at the Met Gala. SZA and Meg Thee stallion want to come sit courtside and watch her.

[Jemele Hill]

The Making of a Rivalry. A six episode docu series that explores the media frenzy surrounding two supernovas in Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry.

[Carrie Champion]

Typically, what it takes is for there to be a rivalry. A moment, a star player that comes along that makes us think differently about the game and gets everybody sort of galvanized behind either a sport, a player, a moment. It's always something. You know, there's been watershed moments in like major league baseball. You could say when integration occurred. You could say when Hank Aaron broke Babe Bruce's home run record.

[Jemele Hill]

There's a new home run champion of all time and it's Henry Aaron.

[Carrie Champion]

There's been these moments that you can just recall off the top of your head that you felt like the sport itself was ascending to a higher place. And so we've been able to experience that.

[Jemele Hill]

Jemele Hill covered women's basketball in the beginning of her career and I call her a grisly media veteran. And she says that this moment in women's basketball has been building. But Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, well, those two, they set off this explosion of interest.

[Carrie Champion]

This moment in women's basketball is shape shifting. I think a lot of us who have covered women's basketball and women's sports in particular, I think there's other sports you can point to. That moment when it happened, where you saw there Was a decided shifting move that took the league from one place while growing, but two, an exponential growth. And I'm just really happy I was alive as someone whose first professional beat was the WNBA when I was a young cub reporter. So what I would say is that, yeah, it's shape shifting. It's changing not just the league. It's changing culture. It's changing the way we look at female athletes. I think the last. I would say the last three to five years, it was. It was a steady increase. And then it was like, boom, the rocket hit.

[Jemele Hill]

The WNBA is in its 28th season, but if you start to think about it, some would say it feels as if history is repeating itself. Jamel reminds us that the NBA, you know, where the men play, wasn't always a ratings juggernaut.

[Carrie Champion]

People often forget just how poorly the NBA was thought of. You know, when before Magic and Bird kind of took the lead to another level. You talking about, you know, finals games being on tape delay, David Stern having to deal with the reputation that the NBA was full of junkies and, like, they had a massive drug problem in the league. Like, they had a lot of stuff going on, and really, they were very concerned whether or not it'd be financially solvent. Magic and Bird, when they came along, they weren't ready. I mean, they were still delayed. They weren't ready for that, but they adapted and they adjusted.

[Jemele Hill]

You used the word detonated when she arrived. What is it about Caitlin Clark that changed the landscape of women's basketball?

[Carrie Champion]

So it's a combination of factors, and I do hope people focus on the fact I said combination. Okay. Because I have realized in talking about her in the past that people only.

[Jemele Hill]

Hear the trigger word after the break. Jamelle will break down some of those trigger words and explain this new fandom for the women's game. The making of a rivalry. Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese. Back in a moment.

[Tyla]

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[Carrie Champion]

Ooh wow.

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[Carrie Champion]

Like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I don't really hear the noise. I just come here and play basketball every single day and that's what I focus on.

[Carrie Champion]

I want to personally thank Caitlin Clark for lifting up our sport.

[Jemele Hill]

Don Staley isn't wrong. Caitlin Clark has lifted the sport and it was good to hear her say it. But it's not just because Kaitlyn's a great player. There are so many other factors that have been ignored.

[Carrie Champion]

She is playing like Steph Curry. It's her whole narrative. It's her whole story. It's like the way she plays, the style coming from Iowa. And while Iowa basketball has its own culture and it certainly have had other players, but I think when you come from Iowa, there's an underdog nature to that. Like, you're not from la. You're not from, you know, New York, a known basketball entity you're from. And that's a place that from a national level isn't always seen. It's overlooked. It's in the Midwest. Right? So where she is. And then she's straight and she's white and all of those factors. Her talent leads first, and she broke a lot of very important records. And then once you start getting to the subgroup and the nuance, you see how that all appeals. But when it hit the fan is when suddenly there's a foe. Right? And I think that's why people make the comparison so much to Bird and Magic. They needed each other. You know, it's like Superman needed Lex Luthor. The Batman needed the Joker. And I don't mean to put Angel Reese in some kind of villainous role, because I don't consider her a villain. But I think every great player needs a foil. They need a foil, right?

[Jemele Hill]

And, you know, a foil meaning someone to say, yeah, you're great, but I'm just as good. Foil means I have just as many tricks.

[Carrie Champion]

Correct. A foil that can take something from you that people think you deserve. Like, Magic needed bird to take things from him to take rookie of the year to take championships. He needed that to become a great player. And he talks about it all the time. Larry Bird needed the same thing.

[Jemele Hill]

Why? What did Magic take from Bird?

[Carrie Champion]

Yo. Championships. I mean, they were both duking it out for who was going to be the best player of that generation. And, you know, they're the two most successful franchises in NBA history. They needed that. You know, ying needs Yang. All right? And so I.

[Jemele Hill]

Twins need twins. Yeah.

[Carrie Champion]

Shout out to the right. Yeah. Like, it's like, you. Drake needs Kendrick. Kendrick needs Drake.

[Jemele Hill]

Drake needs Kendrick. I'm saying Drake needs Kendrick.

[Carrie Champion]

This is what it takes. It's like if you don't have.

[Jemele Hill]

Just as a reminder. Yes, sir.

[Carrie Champion]

You need somebody who's gonna say, like, I gotta take it from him. And, you know, I'll relate it back to your favorite player and mine, Isaiah Thomas.

[Jemele Hill]

Now, if anybody knows either of us, that is false. Magic is my.

[Carrie Champion]

Magic is our.

[Jemele Hill]

Is my favorite. Kobe is my favorite. But if we talking about that era, Magic is my favorite.

[Carrie Champion]

But Isaiah, he needed magic.

[Jemele Hill]

He did. And vice versa.

[Carrie Champion]

Yes. He Needed that foil that was gonna get him there.

[Jemele Hill]

Which is why people are like, who was Magix?

[Carrie Champion]

And Michael Jordan needed the Pistons.

[Jemele Hill]

I mean, excuse me, Michael Jordan's. Who was Michael Jordan's foil in real time for how long in a real way?

[Carrie Champion]

Well, see, the thing is, because of the way we were beating Jordan down, you can all look it up, people. It's like, I'm not making mistake.

[Jemele Hill]

Let me tell you.

[Carrie Champion]

We did beat Michael Jordan down.

[Jemele Hill]

Okay, okay, okay. Well, once he got past y'all, it was no looking back. It wasn't like y'all had a dynasty. Y'all didn't have a dynasty. It wasn't like y'all got 17 chips. You don't have 17 banners hanging in your arena in Detroit. Okay, well, you got four, six.

[Carrie Champion]

We have three.

[Jemele Hill]

Okay, thank you. And I was being kind.

[Carrie Champion]

Yes. And two of those, but.

[Jemele Hill]

Okay, that's fine. But we still got 17. We should. So what you telling me is we should have 19. We should have 19 is what you're telling me. We gave y'all two just for charity.

[Carrie Champion]

Who has the.

[Jemele Hill]

It was rigged. Fake news. It was faith.

[Carrie Champion]

NBA championships. Now for a franchise, I believe it's Boston. Is that who it is?

[Jemele Hill]

They got us this year. God bless y'all, but we'll be back.

[Carrie Champion]

Isaiah needed Larry Bird.

[Jemele Hill]

Okay?

[Carrie Champion]

He needed. They need.

[Jemele Hill]

This is not about us.

[Carrie Champion]

It's not about us, but it is about us. The whole point is, the beauty of sports is seeing the athletes go on the journey. Peyton Manning needed Tom Brady.

[Jemele Hill]

Talk about who Tom Brady needed Him. Who? Tom Knee.

[Carrie Champion]

I mean, well, considering how well he needed Eli Manning. Yeah, we gotta keep Tom.

[Jemele Hill]

But if we start, if we. If we like, it's almost like saying Detroit needed the Lakers. They didn't. And so we had Boston Celtics, and we still do. They keep us humble.

[Carrie Champion]

You need a. You need something that creates the inertia and the tension. And the thing is now, and I think both players, even though they play different positions, both Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark, I would not believe either of them if they said they were not paying attention to what the other one was doing.

[Jemele Hill]

Oh, gosh.

[Carrie Champion]

Especially, you know, we go through that stretch where angel has, like, double, double.

[Jemele Hill]

On double, double on double, 14 straight.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think something is.

[Carrie Champion]

Caitlin is. You know, I think the last regular season game is. We're recording this. She had A WNBA record 19 assists. Like, they're Every week, they're topping each other.

[Jemele Hill]

They're watching.

[Carrie Champion]

They're absolutely watching.

[Jemele Hill]

And by the way, if they say they're not competing. And anyone who's watching this suggesting that we're pitting them against another, then they shouldn't be playing pro. Because as a professional, your job is to compete at the highest of levels.

[Carrie Champion]

And you're checking what other people are doing.

[Jemele Hill]

And you're also wanting to be better. Cause you need to your point, it's a foil in which she needs Angel Reese. How would you describe her as a foil?

[Carrie Champion]

I mean, I think angel, what I love about watching her play and even her demeanor in general, like she is a ride or die. Like, I look at how her teammates respond to her, and even though she's a rookie and there's veteran leadership that she has on her team, I look at the relationship she has with T. Spoon, who was an amazing player, one of the grittiest, dynamic players the league has ever had. Like, Teaspoon didn't play no games, right? And it's not surprising to me that she's like an amazing coach. But looking at the relationship she has with Kennedy, Carter and Cardosa and like all the players, even the vets on that team, you could tell, you can even tell this at lsu. Like, she is the emotional thermometer. It's her and the way she carries herself. She's still got a lot to learn, of course, but she plays with a fire and a passion every single play. That's hard to teach. It is very hard to teach.

[Jemele Hill]

Kelsey Plum, the two time WNBA champion with the Las Vegas Aces, gives her take on Angel Reese.

[Carrie Champion]

People feel insecure. You have like a strong black woman that's confident in herself and knows what she's talking about and she's just saying what she feels. I think a lot of people were like, whoa, like, how do I feel about this? You never walk away from seeing her play and think she ain't giving up. You never walk away thinking that about her. So it's like the tenacity, like, just jumps off the page to me. And I think as she figures out her offensive identity, she gonna be a real problem. She already a problem, now she gonna be a real problem. And she's somebody you could definitely see winning. I mean, winning an MVP one day, like getting all the awards. And now I think people wanna see how this turns out. They wanna see between her and Caitlin, who wins the championship first, who gets an MVP first, who gets rookie of the year. Who gets rookie of the year? I mean, we're, we're in that right now. It's like, yeah. And you talk to players once they're out of the League, and then they're. They're able to be more honest about how they felt in these moments again, like, they're gonna probably give us the whole, oh, you know, it's great to be considered, like, nah, nah, nah, nah. They trying to beat each other for.

[Jemele Hill]

This award, I think. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about this rivalry. People may be afraid of that word and how the story will be couched, but the way in which you just described it a moment ago was that there is a need. There is a need for them to have someone to push them to make them better. And if that person is your rival, then you will be the best. That's great. That's fine. You will always end up in rare air if you find yourself constantly competing against the best. There's nothing wrong with that word rivalry to me. What is it about the new fans that need this rivalry, this divisiveness, this divide? Is it the temperature of the country that we live in right now?

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. I mean, everything feels very divided. But, you know, I don't know. I think that the new fans, I think for. Especially for people who may have been watching a little bit longer than some of them, they come in with such aggressive, hot takes. Like, no. I mean, it's like the first day you start watching the NBA and you say, anthony Edwards is the greatest NBA player ever. And it's like, what? Like, you know, so you've been watching five minutes like, sir. Right? It's like, so they. Ma'am, when they do stuff like that, it's just kind of like, it grates the nerves a bit. But I'm happy they're there. And I do feel like. And I felt this way during the course of the season. As it became more about ball, a lot of that calmed down, right? As it became less about the drama, a lot of that calmed down. But what I would say, not just with new fans, but I would say sports fans in general, I think where they need to be, where they need to evolve, is in how women compete. Because it's amazing to me that the same thing they clutch their little pearls over in the wnba, they eagerly cheer for to see men do right. They cheer for the rivalry. They cheer for the drama. They cheer for the pettiness. I'm like, I see it all the time. They cheer for it. One of the reasons I brought up Anthony Edwards, one of the reasons people love him is because he just don't give a you no way. He don't care. I mean, that man got to the Olympics. His first one, he said, oh, no, I'm the star player. Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

I'm still the number one option. Y'all might look at it differently.

[Carrie Champion]

I don't look at it. I'm like, who else? LeBron's still here, right?

[Jemele Hill]

Yeah.

[Carrie Champion]

He was like, no, no, no, no, no. He like, this. My team.

[Jemele Hill]

Well, that fits into society. Culture has a. Society has a way in which women are supposed to conduct themselves.

[Carrie Champion]

Yes.

[Jemele Hill]

Even on the basketball court. And so you have noticed that the labeling of the rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't. Because we love a rivalry in the NBA.

[Carrie Champion]

Celebrated. In fact, what's the number one complaint you hear about the NBA? They're too friendly. Not enough rivalries.

[Jemele Hill]

Banana boat. Hanging out.

[Carrie Champion]

Exactly.

[Jemele Hill]

Doing all the good things.

[Carrie Champion]

Why they all train together.

[Jemele Hill]

My. My NBA, they weren't friends.

[Carrie Champion]

Exactly. Kobe would never. Kobe would never.

[Jemele Hill]

They couldn't stand each other.

[Carrie Champion]

Right.

[Jemele Hill]

It was beating Michael Jordan down. Heaven forbid.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes.

[Carrie Champion]

And then the ladies, you know, they engage. And I mean, because they're competitors, but competitors, too. They show something similar. It's like, what about the children? Screw them.

[Jemele Hill]

Kids.

[Carrie Champion]

Okay? They'll be all right.

[Jemele Hill]

Send them home.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[Jemele Hill]

Because if it were. If we were at an NBA game, like, that's how it's played, fellas. It's very much. It's very much how if you have a son and a daughter, your son can stay out all night, but you don't know where your daughter is. She needs to get out.

[Carrie Champion]

Don't trigger me, Carrie.

[Jemele Hill]

Yeah.

[Carrie Champion]

I grew up with a step brother my same age. You're going to trigger me.

[Jemele Hill]

One of the biggest complaints about the new fans of the WNBA is the slow acceptance to allow women to compete.

[Carrie Champion]

But it's true. It's like they want women to, you know, on the basketball court, to sit around and braid each other's hair and talk about, you know, relationships and hold hands and sway like that's. I'm like, I don't get this. It's been a physical league. Yes. You as a rookie. You gonna get it. Like, I don't care who you are. You gonna get it. Cause they want to see all this fanfare. You coming in? Is it real? Can you do it?

[Jemele Hill]

So when you watch people complain about the way in which Caitlin Clark might be being treated on the court, do you find yourself helping people? Remember a WNBA of yesteryear?

[Carrie Champion]

Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I remember when the. Kennedy Carter, when she gave Caitlin the. I mean, I feel like I'M diminishing it by calling it a hard foul. I mean, it was a cheap shot. It was a cheap shot. It was not a basketball player. But I had to remind him. I was like, okay, you know, there was maybe, I mean, I mean, for sure, one of the greatest rookies the WNBA has ever had. And some people be like the greatest rookie the WNBA has ever had. They tried to kill Katis Parker. Like she got to a brawl as a rookie.

[Caitlin Clark]

But what had become a physical game is greatly deteriorating. Pearson and Parker tied up with one another.

[Jemele Hill]

They had her on the ground.

[Carrie Champion]

Had her on the ground. Lisa Leslie ready to.

[Jemele Hill]

They had Lisa Leslie. Candace Parker was on the ground and someone was on top of her, not telling her sweet nothings. Yeah, you're Detroit once again. That's why I can't have nice things.

[Carrie Champion]

There's right on up, right. And she talks about all the time about those many rookie moments that she had that year. Every single player that WNBA could tell you about a moment where they had to prove it. They was about that life. You know what I'm saying?

[Sabrina Merchant]

My name is Sabrina Merchant and I'm a staff writer at the Athletic covering women's basketball.

[Jemele Hill]

My colleague Sabrina Merchant was on assignment for the women's national championship game in 2023. In fact, she covered the tournament. And like many, she was surprised when Iowa and Caitlin Clark beat defending champions South Carolina. Good to see you, dear friend. I find it interesting that we find this moment to have a conversation because I almost feel as if you have always been leading the way on some of these stories, like stories that have been really, really juicy, for lack of a better word, really complicated, convoluted, controversial. And because it's been women's basketball, no one's paid attention. You've reported on some very intense negotiations, breakups, cover ups, and it just all went under, I guess, the radar. What's changed since the last time we talked in terms of women's basketball?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I think the last time we spoke was the 2023 WNBA Finals, which was what a great moment that was. That was an incredible series. Two superstars at the peak of their powers going at it. And think of all that has happened since then. We just had two players, Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, who came onto the national stage and decided that they were not going to step off of it.

[Jemele Hill]

Let's go to October. You mentioned the 2023 WNBA Finals. Before the WNBA Finals, there was this little game where these two young ladies by the name of Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees met.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. So I was covering the west coast games in the tournament, so I was in Caitlin Clark's regional in Seattle in 2023. And great arena, Seattle. You know, it's where the Seattle Storm play. It's only a women's basketball and hockey arena. And this is probably like 60% full during these Elite 8 and Sweet 16 games. Again, Elite 8, Sweet 16 games. Like, you know, there's a right to play for the Final Four. Iowa's playing Louisville. Haley Van Lith, big name to about 60% full here. So, you know, you could tell Caitlin Clark is a great player. You know, she's in the running for national player of the Year, ultimately ends up losing to Aaliyah Boston, but. Or maybe that was the year before. But regardless, like, great player, we're not talking national phenomenon yet. Then you get to the Final Four. You have Iowa versus undefeated South Carolina, and South Carolina comes in as the defending national champion starting five that has lost maybe eight or nine games together in their last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season, presumably just two games away from.

[Jemele Hill]

So, Don, basically, we all thought going into this tournament, Don Staley and the South Carolina Gamecocks were going to win. That's what it was, a no. It was a no brainer.

[Sabrina Merchant]

If you picked against South Carolina in your bracket. You were just asking.

[Jemele Hill]

You're like, well, what are you doing exactly? You're going against Kobe, you're going against Jordan, you're going against the best of the best. You're going against Tom Brady.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What are you doing exactly? So it's the nightcap on that Friday of the Final Four. LSU has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is a dramatically more important game than we gave it credit for in the time. But, you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike anything I could remember previously being present for. Just live, you know, the tension of, like, watching a Goliath get slain, Right? Like, you just don't see that very often. And, you know, naturally, a team effort. We've seen Kate Martin go on to have a nice little stint with the Las Vegas Aces so far. Everybody can name players in Iowa now, right? Like Gabby Marshall, Monica Donato. This is the Caitlin Clark show. And she puts up 40 points, another magnificent performance, and takes down the Giants. And it's, oh, my God, like, what did we just witness?

[Jemele Hill]

What did we just witness? Is she the best thing ever? Is she the next Steph Curry? Is she the female Steph Curry?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Exactly.

[Jemele Hill]

All the questions people were asking because I was shocked that she beat Don Staley in South Carolina. I was like, there was no game plan for her.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Right.

[Jemele Hill]

There was no game plan for Caitlin Clark.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And it didn't seem like a fluke either. It looked like she was in complete control of that game, which is not something you expect to see against, again, undefeated, defending national champion, like, multiple players going to the pros, best defense in the country, all of that, you name it.

[Jemele Hill]

They had every accolade.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And she walked in and Don Staley.

[Jemele Hill]

And Don Staley, which is the cherry on top of the ice cream. So she walks away from this game and we're. I know, I'm thinking, I don't know what we've just witnessed, but everyone is talking about it. I'm not. And by everyone, I mean not just within our world. It's on national news. It is everywhere. People who don't watch women's basketball are telling you about what they think about these women.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, it's the kind of thing where you get texts the next morning like, oh my God, did you watch that game? Like, can you believe what just happened? As if professionally. This isn't what I have to do to be in person to cover that game.

[Jemele Hill]

Iowa has conquered South Carolina.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, that was. I think that's when the switch flipped.

[Jemele Hill]

After the break, my colleague and host of the Good Game podcast, Sarah Spain, shares her thoughts.

[Kelsey Plum]

Having so many conversations with different WNBA players and reporters over the years, one of the things that was standing in the way of people embracing the game is just that it looks a little different than professional men's basketball. And people who could get hung up on they're not dunking would choose that as the reason that they didn't appreciate the game.

[Jemele Hill]

Back in a moment.

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[Carrie Champion]

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[Jemele Hill]

Wow.

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[Kelsey Plum]

A lot of sports radio and sports TV, you need to have a take. And if you're not watching a lot of games and you don't know a lot about the players or the sport, your take doesn't have any legs. If you can just say, I like Caitlin Clark. I don't like Angel Reese. Or should women be this competitive? Or are they trying to take her? You can have a conversation on your show and you can get people fired up about it without ever having to do the work. And that's sometimes a good thing. Not for the product that comes out, but for the coverage coming out of it. It was really good for women's college basketball and eventually the wnba, that people had this thing, this rivalry that they could create takes out of.

[Jemele Hill]

I'm sure you've heard analysts on television say, welcome to the new fans of the wnba. I'm sure I've said it many a times, but if I'm honest, I don't know that much of us really know anything about these ladies off the court, especially Caitlin Clark. Here's Sarah Spain of the Good Game podcast.

[Kelsey Plum]

All you need to know is she's jacking up shots from basically half court. She's hitting logo threes on the regular, and she's doing it in clutch moments. And that alone opened the door ajar for people to step in and appreciate her play and then start watching the rest of the game and say, oh, this is good. But that was the ultimate sort of backbreaker for that argument that women weren't worth watching because they couldn't dunk. Was like, oh, wait, she's doing something.

[Jemele Hill]

That guys aren't doing well to that. To that same idea. Everyone says she plays like Steph Curry. She has every. Steph Curry, I think, is arguably one of the most impactful players in basketball in terms of his every man's. And people have called her every woman's game, if you will. It's very common. It feels like, I can do it. She's a girl next door. All of these things feel very marketable. When you look at the wnba, do you feel that's a slight on the women who've already built this league for so many years?

[Kelsey Plum]

I think the way we talk about Caitlin Clark can be in good faith talking about the ways that she is appealing, and the same way that we could talk about Steph Curry being appealing because you felt like watching him, like, oh, I could do that. Which is very different than watching Michael Jordan or Shaq or LeBron James. And then there's ways that we talk about Caitlin Clark that are almost obtuse with intention so as to disregard the ways that we haven't respected the existing players in the WNBA over the decades, particularly players of color, players who are masculine presenting, players who are openly lgbtqia. When we are intentional about promoting and singling out a straight white girl next door as the face of a league that has been predominantly black, we have to acknowledge why that's happening. And if you look across the landscape of women's sports, so often what has become considered palatable in the eyes of many who want to place women in specific lanes is the sports that have predominantly white athletes who have aesthetically generally pleasing body types and who we can sort of infantilize as your little girl all grown up, right? Just the perfect little role models. It's tennis, it's soccer, right? And those sports are changing, by the way. And we're witnessing and getting through the issues of the changing faces and representatives for those sports in ways that are worth discussing, too. But in basketball in particular, when you find that the focus is on Caitlin Clark, Paige Beckers, Sue Bird at the expense of other players, because it's not to say that they're not deserving, but it is to say that who else has been contributing at the highest level? Who else is worthy of that praise, Those marketing deals, those sponsorships that we're not paying attention to? And why, let's be honest about it.

[Jemele Hill]

Caitlin Clark is a game changer, and she's brought so many new eyes to the wnba. In episode two, we talk to the people who know Caitlin Clark intimately. We'll also hear from the game changer herself next time on Naked Sports. Who is Caitlin Clark?

[Caitlin Clark]

When you watch her play, her vision and her understanding of the game, the game is literally slowed down in her mind, you know, and she sees these passing angles that even the passer or the receiver of the pass doesn't even see, you know, and you're watching in the stands or on the side of the court, and you don't always even see it as a coach, you know, or a fan until it happens. And so just to see firsthand how she sees the game. And it's kind of hard to explain because even as we watch her, you can't get in her mind, but the game is literally slower for her than other people. I mean, I have known Caitlin since she was in eighth grade. I've been following her. We had been recruiting her since then, then, because we knew she was such a special talent. And then it came time for her senior year and her to make this decision. And she grew up in a Catholic high school, very strong Catholic family. And so Notre Dame, of course, was a logical decision for her to make, but her heart wasn't there. And she went on her visit and she came home and was really. Just didn't feel good about it after she'd committed to them. And so had somebody call me up to find out would I still be interested in having her? Well, if. Of course. So. So she did end up calling Notre Dame and declining and then called me up. I can still remember where I was. My husband and I were out having dinner. She called me up and said, if you'd have me, if you still have a spot available. I'd love to be a Hawkeye.

[Angel Reese]

And this was my first season doing the women's college game. And I go back and we're watching a little bit and I see her pull up from 35ft or whatever it was, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is just. This is crazy. And the ratings are through the roof, nowhere near where they're at now. But for that time, shattered records for us on espn. And that game was on abc. And so people are like, oh, this Caitlin Clark player, she's fun, whatever. Well, Caitlin continues to get better and better, and then her moments become more and more viral. And all of a sudden you have people who are seeing clips of her and they're saying, oh, my gosh, who is this? They're seeing the insane no look passes. They're seeing the down court passes. But more than anything else at this moment, what they're seeing is they're seeing someone pull up off the dribble from 30, 35, 40ft and just having these incredible performances. Someone who's leading the nation and scoring and assisting over and over again.

[Sarah Spain]

Mythical mastery of Caitlin Clark continues.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think that's part of what makes Caitlin so compelling to watch, is that you can see everything on her face. She doesn't hide anything. She is incredibly emotional throughout the course, and that makes her a more interesting figure on television and in person. But if you're only tuning in for the national title game, you think, oh, this poor girl from Iowa is getting bullied by, you know, the big bad LSU girls. Which couldn't be farther from the truth because as Caitlin said repeatedly after the game, like, she'd been dishing out the same stuff for five previous games while she was winning. But like you said, the optics make people uncomfortable. Like, there's a racial element, which, I mean, we let it slide on the men's side, right? Like, if a male athlete taunts another male athlete, doesn't really matter if they're black and white. It's just two men going at one another. But there was an extra layer because they're women. Because we don't let women show their emotions like that in public. They were not given that same level of grace.

[Sarah Spain]

I remember Caitlin Clark going viral for, like, logo threes and step back threes. And it was like, oh, she plays like Steph. That's what I was hearing. And I was like, oh, Like, I hadn't seen somebody in a minute shooting from that deep. I hadn't seen, like, I've seen Players really good. But logo threes was her thing. And I was like, Iowa. I don't remember Iowa being good. And I was like, oh, LSU's pretty good. And I remember they beat Iowa. And I remember Caitlin Clark was really braggadocious. Like, she was doing this. She was, ah, like she was playing with a lot of emotion, which is cool. I love it. And then when Angel Reese and them played and Angel Reese put it back in her face, I was like, okay, like, this is competition the way I like it. And then, like, when I was watching the game, it wasn't that big. I was like, oh, this is great. She pointed at a ring. She did all this. And then, like, I feel like immediately that day it became like angel getting called classless. And I was like, and this is for me. It was like, here we go again. Cause I remember, like, Tom Brady, he takes off his helmet and throws it. He's passionate. DEZ Bryant does it.

[Jemele Hill]

Well, they got mad at DEZ too. Yeah, they got mad at dez, but.

[Sarah Spain]

They didn't get mad at Tom. Tom is always passionate. DEZ is. He's losing his cool. Odell Beckham loses his cool. So it's quite often that black athletes and white athletes do the same thing. And it's looked at very differently. And with Angel Reese, I was like, here we go. Like, so as a black person, I'm like, now I got to ride for you.

[Jemele Hill]

I got to.

[Sarah Spain]

Because I got to defend black women. I'm going to be on your side. So that's what I remember. Like, it becoming a huge, huge thing. And I remember they played the next year and I remember saying, you know, I did make my jokes. I was like, race War two is happening.

[Jemele Hill]

Would Caitlin Clark be such a supernova if there were no Angel Reese?

[Carrie Champion]

I don't. No.

[Jemele Hill]

Who is Caitlin Clark? That's episode two of Making of a Rivalry. The Making of a Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese is a be honest production in partnership with the Black Effect Podcast Network and Iheart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by me, Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana. Produced by Jacques Thomas. Sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer, Olubusayo Shabby Naked Sports is a part of the Black Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia. Hey, everybody. If you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast. And for those who've been with us since season one, thank you for riding out. We're kicking off season four with this six episode docu series that you're listening to right now. And after that, Naked Sports will continue to live at the intersection of sports, politics and culture. We're covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA Rookie of the Year contest. This season will be bold, as you can already tell, no holds barred. But also we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes our show so very unique. We appreciate you for being here and thank you all for the support. We'll talk to you next week.

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[Jemele Hill]

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