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- [00:00]
Carrie Champion
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
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- [00:37]
Carrie Champion
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at the intersection of sports, politics and culture. Our purpose? Reveal the common threads that bind them all. So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what we've been trying to.
- [00:52]
Garrison Hayes
Get to for almost 30 years.
- [00:54]
Carrie Champion
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records.
- [00:58]
Garrison Hayes
Caitlin Clark broke the all time single game assist record. This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
- [01:04]
Carrie Champion
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit down with athletes, political analysts and culture critics. Because at the core of it all, how we see one issue shines a light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports. I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey everybody, welcome back to another edition of Naked Sports with your girl, Carrie Champion. Appreciate you all being here and listening and being faithful. I will introduce our next guest in a few moments. You're going to be happy to hear from him. He is a true to me, a teacher, a professor, he calls himself a digital creator, but he definitely has found a way to speak to the culture. But before I get into that, I have to talk about our podcast, Let them play WNBA Growing Pains. That's our podcast from last week. If you didn't listen, please do. But I want to address something that is disturbing and I don't know if anybody will hear this, but I am really, really tired of the narrative that these women in the WNBA are jealous of Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese doesn't like Caitlin Clark or we should be grateful for Caitlin Clark. If you've listened to me, you know I am a big proponent of saying we as fans can't be mad at how she is getting attention, how the media is covering her, how legends in our business revere her so soon, so quickly. I think of a Dick Vital who said the women of the WNBA are jealous of Caitlin Clark. Charles Barkley echoed something very similar. Stephen A. Smith, Same thing. These people, these voices that we hear consistently in sports that we regard as credible and, and, and worthy of our time are sending that message. They are sending that message without hesitation that Caitlin Clark is untouchable and the women of the WNBA are jealous. The reason why that bothers me, I can give you a ton of reasons why. I can tell you that Dick Vital or Charles Barkley or Stephen A. Smith weren't watching the WNBA in 97 in a real way, I can tell you these men just started to watch the WNBA because of Caitlin Clark, I'm sure. And now that they've watched and they're paying attention, they're like, oh, it's not. Oh, okay. It's kind of interesting. I just don't believe that they have the right, nor do they have the knowledge and or acumen to make such a sweeping statement as if it is fact. And, and because, yes. And even if it is fact, even if it is true, who cares? There are people who were jealous of LeBron and Kobe and Barkley and name any other superstar player, players in the NBA were jealous as well. And it wasn't headline news and it wasn't something that people stopped and paid attention to. It wasn't something where you said, oh, Everybody's jealous of LeBron. Let's talk about it. And it is this gender bias and how and in which men, the way they consume women's sports, feel like they have to point out women being catty. And you all know if anybody's listening to this podcast, the biggest gossips, the biggest, cattiest people, usually aren't women. Okay, guys, okay. Whenever I hear something about some gossip, it's usually coming from a male. I just want to let you know, especially in this business. But to my point, so what if they are jealous? So what if they are competitive? That is sport. It happens all the time. And I hate how precious you all are being with Caitlyn. I'm saying yes, and these two things can exist. Yes. And yes, they may be jealous. Yes, they might be upset with the fact that she's getting all the attention. And they also are still playing the sport. They also are still showing her she's still not regarded as other legends are. She isn't the best in the league. No one is saying that. I most definitely am. I'm not saying that she is the best in the league. I'm saying she's a supernova with a special talent. Doesn't mean she's the best in the league. It means there's something about her that is drawing people to her, that makes people who have never Watched this game before. Want to watch the game? Let's ride that wave. That's separate. I. I really, truly cannot stand that. Listening comprehension is gone. These days. No one pays attention. I'm not saying she's the best. I'm not saying that Angel Reese is not as good as her. In fact, I think Angel Reese is a dog. I think they both are figuring it out. It's their sophomore seasons. They are going to have great streaks, they're going to have bad streaks. It's how sport works. But the growing pains of the WNBA specifically come from people who are not allowing this sport to grow. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone thinks. The media. The media, the big, bad media is for Caitlin Clark. And I can see why, because some of the biggest voices with the biggest platforms are. Are truly caping for her. They are laying, they're taking off their capes, and they're throwing it over a puddle of water, and they're saying, caitlin, come on, walk over, friend. We got to help you. You're so precious. I understand that. I truly do. But everyone doesn't feel that way. And I do believe that what we are going to witness in the coming days, years or months is a breaking point. The women who've built this league from 97 are going to be fed up. They're going to be fed up, and they're going to start saying more, and they're going to start saying more, and that's going to start to affect the game. And in a real way, this is a PSA for the commissioner of the wnba, Kathy Engelbert. You need to get it together. You need to get it together. You need to know who your players are. You need to understand what they want. You need not be afraid of having these uncomfortable conversations. And you need to not treat this like it's just solely a business. You're dealing with souls. You're dealing with women who are used to being marginalized. You're dealing with women who have big voices. You. You're dealing with women who understand right from wrong. And this freedom that they are starting to experience, and what I mean by freedom is the attention, the time and the money that they're making. What comes with all of that, when you know that you are a precious commodity, comes this ego, comes this. This. This inner voice. And it comes at a cost. And they're not going to let you continue. This is for you, Ms. Engelbert. Commissioner Engelbert. They're not going to let you continue to ignore that. They're not going to let you continue to ignore the fact that they are being treated differently because they are not Caitlin Clark. Growing pains. All growing pains. I just hate. And I'm fed up. I just hate that we're letting people who don't even understand the sport create this narrative. Why do we care what RG3 has to say? Why do we care that RG3 says he knows people in Angel Reese's inner circle that says she does not like Caitlyn Clark? Why does he matter? I. Why does his voice matter? Why are we giving him attention to my point earlier, has he been a fan of the WNBA or is this new? His eyes tell him that Angel Reese doesn't like Caitlin Clark. Who cares? And I'll wrap it up with this. It's okay to not like your opponent. I don't know if you know that. This thing called sports. I'm gonna say it every week. It's okay not to like somebody you go up against because you all want the same thing. And that is to be the best. We've seen that. Right? Why is it different for women? Why do we have to bring in Caddy? Why do we have to bring in. Oh, they're jealous. Why do we have to bring in all of these. These tropes interact with other women. Why can't it just be. We got athletes who just don't get along, Athletes who are like Caitlin Clark. You don't handle the ball well. You can shoot your ass off, but you don't handle that ball well. And stop. And stop flopping and stop acting like people are. Are. Are trying you. That's what sport is. Because the biggest complaint about Caitlin Clark, honestly, from other players, is that she whines too much. It's everybody else's fault. And that might be her. And that might be her downfall. Correct. That might be her issue. Maybe she needs. She'll work on it. Who knows? I don't know. It's too early to tell. I don't have a firm opinion. My opinion can be changed on that. But from what I see, yeah, no, she's not the top guard in the league. Not the top point guard in the league at all. Not at all. And we know that. But that's okay. And I just simply want us to be able to talk about these women the way we talk about NBA players. Narrative. LeBron whines too much on social media. Get off of social media. Remember back in the day? I'm old enough to remember. We couldn't stand LeBron on social media with all his passive aggressive tweets. Who you talking about? Say it. Kobe. No one liked Kobe. He was mean. He didn't get along with Shaq. People thought Shaq was the nicest one. And Kobe was mean. And he ran Shaq out of la. Michael Jordan was physically getting his ass handed to him when he played for the Chicago Bulls. When he went up against the Detroit Pistons before he finally got his first chip, they used to physically beat the hell out of that man until he got in the gym and figured it out. I go down a list. I go down a list of narratives for NBA players and surrounding all of those narratives. Nobody talked about being jealous. Nobody talked about the fact that LeBron was mad when Steph was getting all the attention and he was jealous. Nobody was talking about the fact that Michael Jordan don't really fool with LeBron like that maybe. Is Jordan jealous? Is Jordan jealous? Was Kobe jealous? Was Magic Johnson jealous? No, y', all don't. That don't even come in your mind. Don't make me sick. Y' all make me sick. I'm not talking to people who don't think like this, but the rest of y' all make me sick. All right, that's my vent. I approve that message. Coming up on the show today. I love him so much. And by the way, I've never met him, but I love him so much. Some people are put on this planet to give us very special messages. Messages that teach us, that make us think, messages that challenge us. Whether you are black or white, male or female, whatever you are, I believe that if you listen to Garrison Hayes, he's you an education. So today on Naked, we're going to talk to Garrison about his travels, what he's been able to find out. And I hope it's an education for you all because there's so much we just don't know about, myself included. Welcome to Naked Sports. I'm Carrie Champion. Back in a moment.
- [11:47]
Garrison Hayes
Hey. My name is Garrison Hayes. I am a journalist and creator. I love history. I love black people. Those are probably the most important things to know about me from a content perspective. Originally from Atlanta, Georgia, but currently in Nashville. So it feels really, really important to tell you that I'm from Atlanta because of that.
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Carrie Champion
Why does it feel really important to tell me you're from Atlanta? Did you live in Nashville?
- [12:11]
Garrison Hayes
Because I live in Nashville, and if you're from Atlanta, you can't live in any other Southern city and be like, oh, I'm from here. No, no. You have to let people know I am from the Southern city, especially for black people. Atlanta, Georgia.
- [12:25]
Carrie Champion
That's the one that matters. I got you. I lived in Atlanta for a hot stint. Yeah, I loved it. I was a local news reporter. I loved it. It was. It was. It was. It was. Can I explain? Atlanta. Atlanta, for me, really helped me solidify my blackness. And I know that sounds crazy, but I grew up in California. I grew up in la. And it's. It's. It's really set apart from the rest of the world. When you live in California, the. The isms aren't obvious, especially not when I was growing up. Like, if someone was a racist, I wouldn't know. If someone didn't like me, I really didn't. The first place I would go wasn't about who I was or the color of my skin, because it's. It's such a community. I grew up in Pasadena, especially in Pasadena. Everyone is just. It's a mixing melting pot, and I didn't really know what I needed to know.
- [13:17]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah.
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Carrie Champion
Which brings me to my point of wanting to bring you on how I grew up. I didn't have storytellers passing down oral history. I didn't know much about the black experience that my mother had growing up, or even my grandmother, for that matter, who grew up in the South. You and I have talked about her. I didn't have that oral history. It just wasn't a part of my childhood. And I don't know why, but it just wasn't. And when I got older, I made sure that I became more and more curious. But there was just so much I didn't know. You as a creator, as a storyteller, as a journalist, you do something that I find invaluable, and you are able to reach audiences of different ages, and that is tell stories, Black history. And so when you say you love black people, you love history, that's most important. It is evident in the work that you do. So thank you for doing that.
- [14:10]
Garrison Hayes
No, that means a lot to me. Thank you so much, Carrie. I. You know, it's funny. I grew up similarly. Maybe we'll talk about our grandmother today. I grew up with my nana, who was. Is born in the south, still alive and well and doing great and all of that. And she told me all of these stories about her life growing up as a little black girl in the kind of. In the south, just outside of Atlanta, in Lynwood Park. And the thing that I always felt when she was telling me these stories was that I was transported back to that time that I was living in, 1940, whatever it was, or 50, whatever. And I'm experiencing these things in the moment. And so that's probably the first place where I really fell in love with history. It was this kind of personal oral history that I really fell in love with. And then I realized that there were people. I have this book behind me right now from Dr. Peniel Joseph. There are people who study this and then take those oral histories and the larger context and synthesize it in a way where you can really digest it. And I just fell in love with that really very specific thing. And then when I realized that I could do that, that I could be a part of that process, it just kind of lit up my world. And I'm, like, so thankful that I get to do it now, because I think it's really, really important. To your point, a place like Atlanta. I was just telling a friend this last night, Atlanta is special because there is this kind of baseline level of respect that I think you can kind of expect. Maybe people are disrespectful. Maybe people say disrespectful things to you. That's fine. But it isn't because you're black in many ways, especially if you're around black people. And there were. I've kind of been. I grew up with that understanding, and then I moved, and I've lived all across the country, and I never really found another place where I could access that. And so there is this kind of, like, baseline level of dignity that I think certain people from Atlanta really kind of walk around with, and we're kind of looking for it everywhere, and you never quite find that thing again.
- [16:15]
Carrie Champion
My. My time living in Atlanta, first time I saw a black mayor, first time I saw a black chief of police, first time black people were running the city in a real way. Attorneys, money, this. That. Doctors. And I was like, is that. What is this place that I am in? And I loved everything about it. But it was also.
- [16:33]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah.
- [16:35]
Carrie Champion
The first time I really realized racism existed in a very hurtful way. Interesting, because if you go 20 miles outside of Atlanta, first step I had, I was a local news reporter. I have photographers who refused to go to Stone Mountain. They were like, I'm not trying to die. They grew up there, and they were afraid of certain areas because of what they knew. And I was like, that's crazy. What do you mean? To me, in my mind, that didn't make any sense. But, I mean, I'm not a black man. One and two. I didn't know the history. So with that being said, I'm really Curious about your journey, and I want to get into specifics, but what was a. And I don't want to say breakthrough moment for you, but when did you realize the content that you were providing was imperative in terms of how people responded to it and how. And how it went viral, if you will.
- [17:30]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah. You know, there are a couple of moments. I'll say this. I started out on YouTube, like, making videos on YouTube back in 2007. They were silly little videos that are all private now, but I've been kind of, like, telling these stories and doing video stuff online for a while, and I put it down. I went off to film school. I fell in love with ministry while in college, and so I ended up in seminary. I became a pastor for some time, so I had this, like, kind of crazy journ. But what I would do as a pastor is I'd be up on stage, and I would essentially be synthesizing the things that I'd kind of taken from the text in scripture and then communicating it to the congregation. And what I learned was that you can take these elements and put them together in a way that really impacts people, that helps them think about the world differently, think about themselves and others in a different way. And so when the pandemic hit, everything at my church went online. And so I was. I was back to making videos on the Internet, but this time for my congregation. And I just kind of fell back in love with that process and the ability to take images and words and put them together in a really neat and tight way. And my. My congregation was really, like, enjoying getting. And I was getting so much positive feedback from them because so much of their life had been disrupted. And so the kind of. One consistent thing was that they. They knew they'd see a video from me every single week. And so, you know, of course, we lived through 2020 and the kind of Black Lives Matter moment. And by January 2021, I already started to get this sense that so much of what we were fighting for and protesting for was like we were getting away from the point. And I thought a lot of that had to do with the missing historical context, like, how we got here. Kind of felt like we were starting from scratch, but we're not starting from scratch, right? Like. Like, we have so much history that bears down on this moment to help us kind of get to the next moment. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to take those ideas and stories and that history and just share it. And so I started by sharing videos of me saying, here are three black books that I think you should read on this topic. And it really resonated the first video I posted, one of the first videos I posted got like 150,000 views, which to me is just like kind of mind blowing. Yeah, you know, our kind of goal post changes over time. And so now 1:50 is like, oh, like, I don't know.
- [19:55]
Carrie Champion
That's great.
- [19:55]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, you know, Exactly. But at the moment, at the time, it was like this kind of mind blowing viral moment for me. And that's when it really clicked that there was something here. That there was a real thirst for this kind of information and knowledge.
- [20:11]
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- [21:15]
Carrie Champion
What have you learned? And this might be a series of questions. What is the one thing that you realize black folks don't know about themselves in terms of their history?
- [21:24]
Garrison Hayes
It's not your fault. I think so much of the American psyche, the way we think about the world is looked at through the lens of the individual. So we think about my own individual failures and my own individual accomplishments. You know, only recently are people starting to admit that, like, there's some degree of luck involved in like the success of the most successful people. Right? For a long time it was like, hey, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps. It comes from that old story, the rugged dick story of, you know, this, this guy who moves to New York to make it big and from rags to riches. That's a Part of the American myth. And in some ways, I want to. I want to give it credit, that it means that we are incredibly ambitious and we believe and we have hope and we know that the future will be better. We always kind of think that way, which is in some ways, at the same time, there are so many forces at play that are way further upstream from your individual effort that contribute to outcomes. And while you may be exceptional, Kerry, because you are, and maybe I am exceptional in some ways, the reality is that most Americans exist somewhere in the middle. And I think that's true for most black people in those conditions that we are raised in, that we come up in, those conditions matter. And for so many black people, the conditions that we were, like, brought into, that we exist in, are designed to see us fail. And so I think if you can think about some of those larger trends and some of those larger elements, we can target our solutions to those problems way more effectively. And I also think we can walk around with a greater deal of dignity and respect and belief in ourselves for what we've already overcome. I encounter so many black people who just have, like, low racial self esteem, and it breaks my heart.
- [23:16]
Carrie Champion
What is low racial self esteem?
- [23:19]
Garrison Hayes
What I mean by that is that we take a low view of who we are. I'm so thankful for the Black Lives Matter movement. I'm thankful for movies like Roots, which kind of, like, redeemed this idea of resilience in the enslaved individual. I'm so thankful for the media that helps black people feel good about themselves because there is so much in this world designed to make us feel bad about ourselves. And so that's what I mean when I say low racial self esteem. It's this idea that we don't believe that black people are capable precisely because in so many ways we've been given these narratives and these examples and the things that they show on the news tell us that we are less than. But the history of our people is a history of resilience and excellence, despite all that we've been through.
- [24:07]
Carrie Champion
So that is where, for me, where the work is, the history. I think when you talk about us not understanding who we are in terms of how we view ourselves is because we don't know our history, myself included. There are just things I just don't know. I could scroll through your page and be like, I didn't know that I didn't know that I didn't know. There's so much that I didn't know. And I wish the same way that you said your Grandmother told you stories. I wish my grandmother grew up telling my mom those stories. And then my mom could. My mother and my father could tell me those stories. Nowadays, and this is. You have to be curious. And I just, I just, I'm blessed that I'm curious and I'm about different things. And I'm like, so tell me why. I don't understand why. I think that is my, My superpower. But when I watch you go to the likes of a Republican National Convention, it didn't. And you sit and you talk with these black Republicans, and we have to highlight some of these moments on the podcast. You sit and you talk to these people, and it's clear, at least to me, they don't really understand why that they are Republican. They think they do. And they give you what we know. That is out in the zeitgeist. Well, you know, Republicans used to be all black. You know, Democrats were racist when they first started. They give you all of these, these generic sayings that we have heard about, but we don't really know why. When you went to the rnc, because I went to the DNC and I loved it. But when you went to the rnc, God bless you. Because that's God's work right there. That is something that only Jesus put on your heart. Amen. Amen. Amen.
- [25:47]
Garrison Hayes
Amen.
- [25:48]
Carrie Champion
Because I was ready to fight. And that is the problem. We're too emotional as a people because it's so serious and it means so much. And I'm like, I am mad. So talk to me about what are the reasons, just the reasons that black Republicans exist. From the research that you've been able to do, from those you've been able to talk to, what are their reasonings for being in the Republican Party today, right now, supporting Donald Trump?
- [26:16]
Garrison Hayes
It's such a good question. It's literally the question that I set out to answer last summer. Summer, black conservatives are everywhere. That's why I'm here, to show my support as a black man, for pollsters. Can't get enough of them.
- [26:28]
Carrie Champion
The historic levels of support the Republicans are getting from black folk under Trump.
- [26:34]
Garrison Hayes
Donald Trump is cozying up to them. And the RNC was full of President Trump. We have the greatest economy in our lifetime.
- [26:44]
Pastor Lorenzo Sewell
America is not a racist country. Can you imagine President Donald Trump coming to. To a city and calling a pastor like me?
- [26:56]
Garrison Hayes
You've probably heard a lot of people talking about black Republicans, but I spent all of the RNC talking to black Republicans.
- [27:03]
Pastor Lorenzo Sewell
So it is with being a black conservative. I, I Equate it to being gay back in the 50s or 60s. You didn't come out the closet then.
- [27:12]
Garrison Hayes
And so you look at the people who really saying that about Trump, it's not no uppity Negroes. It's Negroes, the real hood. And that's one reason why I'm pro Trump and I'm a conservative, is because I truly believe in the individualistic approach to the problems that we see within the black community or in America as a whole. Black Republicans, specifically, are some of the most disliked and unpopular political figures within the black community for a reason. There were all of these, like, headlines saying that black people are going for Trump at a higher rate. And they turned out to be right. Maybe not to the degree, but they were right. If you look at the data, Trump gained in every single demographic among people of color, gained with black women, gained with black men. And that was notable to me. And it was notable. And it was kind of like becoming obvious as I was kind of out talking to people. I talked to people in Atlanta. I was at the, as you mentioned, the rnc. I talked to people in New York, all across the country. And the thing that I feel like it's important to acknowledge here, Gary, is that black people are. If you were to. If you were to take one singular issue out of the American politics, if you were to take out racism, like, let's say that racism wasn't a political issue, let's say everybody was equally against racism, black people would be a third independent, a third conservative, a third liberal. I think we all very naturally across.
- [28:36]
Carrie Champion
Wait, let's. Let's just hold for a moment. I do want to say you are absolutely right. I hate that people assume because we're black, we're Democrats, but because we're one of a few countries that gives you. That, give you only two really viable options, you go for the lesser of two evils.
- [28:49]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah.
- [28:49]
Carrie Champion
And the lesser of two evils for many black people would be the Democratic Party. But we are so conservative. We are so some of us are so liberal, we don't. There is. We're not a monolith way. I could be extremely liberal on some issues and then very conservative on other issues.
- [29:07]
Garrison Hayes
I kind of want to dig into that. I want to know which ones you're very conservative on, because I'm always curious, like, I don't know if we have time for that later.
- [29:13]
Carrie Champion
Yes, we do. We. Yes, yes, yes, we can. After you. So, so, so, so what you found out, like, if racism wasn't an issue, we'd be one third this, one third that, one third, whatever.
- [29:22]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, it's okay. So let's get. I want to. I want to talk at least for a moment about the. The data. The research that Hit Strategies did. My. My good friends over at Hit Strategies, they. They polled black people around their political ideologies and political leanings. And one of the things that they found was that across the spectrum, yes, there are these different factions, these ways that black people are thinking about politics. But for those who identify with the Republican Party the most, race and racism are actually lowest on their priority list. They don't care as much about that. So that's. That's part of it. That's important to say.
- [29:59]
Carrie Champion
Fascinating.
- [30:00]
Garrison Hayes
It is actually very fascinating that there are a group of black people in this country, obviously a minority, that don't see the forces of racism at work in the black community, on individuals, whatever. They don't see that as a real problem. And that is probably the biggest gateway into today's Republican Party for black people. And so when I talk to them. Let's get some of those stories in here. When I talk to them, they talk about economic issues. They talk about abortion issues. So that's kind of a socially conservative kind of issue that they have there. Of course, that means that they're also. They take issue with. With the LGBTQ movement. A lot of times, it's specifically the rise of. Of trans visibility. I won't say that there are more trans people. There are just more visible trans people today. And so they take issue with this, and they see that as this kind of negative force in the country. And when I push on those things, like, well, what difference does it make if there are gay people getting married or they're trans people going through their own individual things? Like, what difference does it make? There are very rarely satisfying answers for me. That's my opinion.
- [31:14]
Carrie Champion
What's the answer? What's the overall sentiment?
- [31:17]
Garrison Hayes
A lot of times it's that it's being pushed on the kids, and I think that's insane. Can I just be honest? I think that's crazy.
- [31:24]
Carrie Champion
Why? Why is that crazy?
- [31:26]
Garrison Hayes
I think it's crazy because visibility. I grew up. I mean, back to Atlanta. I grew up in Atlanta in the 90s and 2000s when there was a great deal of gay visibility in the city. Everyone is finally, like, saying, like, Atlanta is like the black gay Mecca, you know, in the 90s and the 2000s. I have a very close cousin who unfortunately passed away, but I grew up with a cousin who was trans or is Trans. And I have plenty of gay. I'm not gay. I'm around them in like a really intimate, you know, close relational way. This is my family, these are my friends. And I'm not gay because I wasn't. I'm not gay. Cause I'm not gay.
- [32:06]
Carrie Champion
And so I don't.
- [32:07]
Garrison Hayes
And so I don't think that seeing more trans people means that I'm going to suddenly switch into being a trans person. And so I think the idea of being pushed on is manufactured. It's really just the visibility that they have an issue with.
- [32:21]
Carrie Champion
It's the visibility. So when. When trans people existed and it wasn't as. As known or as around the corner or social media or a holiday, it was fine because it was done behind closed doors. But now that it's out in public, you find that really bothers people on the Republican side, especially the blacks who. Who are. Who are joining the party.
- [32:45]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, yeah. And you see, and you see. I mean, back to your point about the conservatism of black people, you know, black people are still the most churched demographic.
- [32:53]
Carrie Champion
That's what I was gonna say. We are churchy. We some churchy folks.
- [32:57]
Garrison Hayes
And so, you know, there are ideas in many churches around the role that women are supposed to play around queer issues, Right? Like whether or not people should or shouldn't be gay, whatever that might mean. There are all of these ideas, these ecclesial and theological and missiological ideas. And it's worth saying that some of those things are creating pathways for black folks specifically to be kind of ushered into the Republican Party. Conservatism and Republicanism specifically.
- [33:32]
Carrie Champion
Wow. Okay. So let me just say from the research you've done and what you think, you've been able to ascertain that, like the church aspect, the conservative aspect, churchy black folks that, like, yes, I am a Republican. So let's get into my grandmother. I have said on the show, and I have said on every show, CNN here, my grandmother voted for Donald Trump. She's 95 years old, feisty as can be. Mine's mostly there. I would say, if I said to say, cause, you know, Cause you know, you lose a little. I'd give her 85%. You know, mostly good days. Mostly good days. But smart enough to tell me most recently, she made a mistake. We've heard that before. What are we supposed to hold on that mistake with? Told me to make sure I save my money because with this man now in charge, she can see that bad times are coming. She then gave me a List of things to do because she said, I've been here before and I know it's going to be tight, so you just pay attention to A, B, C and D. My next question, naturally, was like, well, why would you vote for him? And her philosophy, while not, you know, she's not going to be as eloquent and explained it all to me and give me the historical perspective, but she was just like, I churchy. Kamala wore too many pants. Her pantsuit. Like, she's just too bossy.
- [34:54]
Garrison Hayes
What?
- [34:55]
Carrie Champion
Have you seen me? Who? Who? You. You gave right to this. She didn't birth me, but you raised me. How. How could you say that about this? In many ways align with. Because of who Kamala Harris is and what she's been through and her struggle and trying to figure it out. She's like, yeah, but, you know, you don't need to be doing all that. You don't need to live in New York and in la. You don't need to. It's a very simple mind your business mindset. Go to church, come home, work, have some kids, have a family. Mind your business. But that still wasn't enough for me because Kirsten, she was the first, in many ways, in my family to do so many things. She was married to a man who was abusive. She left him. Women didn't do that back then.
- [35:43]
Garrison Hayes
That's right.
- [35:44]
Carrie Champion
She raised two kids on her own. Women didn't do that back then. They went and got married again and again and again because the Mrs. Was more important than independence. She then was the first person in our family to travel outside the country. She was like, you know, I deserve. I wanted to be a Hollywood movie star. It never happened. But what I'm going to start doing is traveling around the world like some of the favorite films that she used to watch that she wanted to actually go and visit a London or a Paris. And she'd come back with this dollars, you know, their. Their version of their money, whether it was the euro or. Or whatever it was. She would come back and say, look. And she would explain her travels to us, and it was really a beautiful thing. And as she's sitting here telling me this, I'm like, you're so independent. You so are aligned with Kamala. You're so aligned with women today who are saying, look, yes. And I, yeah, I want that, but if I don't, I'm have to go make it on my own. I'm not going to be in the circumstances that life says I should have. So why in the world, do you still feel this way? And what I have come to learn is that we. And I don't want to use the word hypocritical, but, God, we are such a complicated people. I can tell you that I don't think transgender athletes should be in high school. And the reason why I think that is because there's not enough research, there isn't enough money, and there isn't any testing done to make sure that there is parity, in the sense that most recently in California, in Clovis, there was a transgender track and field athlete, and she wanted to run. And there were a lot of parents protesting, and I didn't like that they were protesting her because she was a child. But what I understood was, is this fair? I know that this person takes hormones. I know the science is here that says that she is probably the same as my daughter, but we really don't know enough, because high school, High schools don't give you that budget to go and do what you would do on a collegiate level or what you would do on a Olympic level or in a professional level. I have no problem on all of these other levels where testing is done and people are making sure that your hormones are equal and you. There's no unfair advantage and that you're competing the same way that everybody's competing next to you. I have no problem with that. But then I talked to a really good friend of mine, and she has a daughter in high school, and she said, if I didn't have a daughter playing sports in high school, I would not believe the way I believe. But I truly believe it shouldn't be done in high school. I watch my daughters compete. I watch them lose when they're going up against girls who are better than them and they are the best. And I watch them lose, and I see how hard it is for them. And if someone seemingly has an unfair advantage, I am going to take issue with that. I know it sounds shocking and scary and uncomfortable to say, but that's what I believe, and it makes people uncomfortable. But I know at the same time, I have no problem with gender affirming care. I have no problem with trans people living their own lives. They're not bothering me. Do you do whatever you want to do? My. And you know, here comes the. My best friends are gay. You know what I mean? Like, my best friends are white. No. My best friends are black. No. I have no problem with any of that.
- [38:56]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah. I want to respond to it because I hear you, and I. And I don't Think it's a insane thing. I actually think we need way more of these kinds of conversations, you know, and maybe we should bring a trans person into the conversation.
- [39:09]
Carrie Champion
I would love that.
- [39:10]
Garrison Hayes
You know, that'd be. That'd be amazing. And I think the point that you make is well taken, that we might not know, we might not need.
- [39:18]
Carrie Champion
I don't think we do.
- [39:19]
Garrison Hayes
Information.
- [39:20]
Carrie Champion
I don't think we do.
- [39:21]
Garrison Hayes
You know, but the chilling effect of this conversation nationally is that it has become politicized to even study this. It's become politicized and frowned upon to even look into it, to get that critical information, that data that we need to be able to understand it better. The part of the way I think about it, and to be fair, I don't have a high school athlete. I don't have someone who's, you know, a child that's competing or anything like that. And so I come to this conversation with a great deal of humility. But what I will say is that the number of trans people, just in general, is so low that it feels like this conversation is way larger than it should be. Right.
- [40:06]
Carrie Champion
Okay, Garrison, I say this all the time on cnn. This isn't an issue. This isn't an issue.
- [40:11]
Garrison Hayes
Exactly.
- [40:13]
Carrie Champion
It's a non issue. But if people ask you, what do you feel? I would say there are some things that I'm probably. People would say I'm conservative on.
- [40:22]
Garrison Hayes
Sure.
- [40:22]
Carrie Champion
Government programs. I'm like, okay, some of them, but not all of them. Because the way my taxes work, because sometimes I know they're being abused and people are taking advantage of the system. I don't think you have to get rid of. You got to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But yes, I am about reform. Not necessarily a doge reform, but I'm about reform and making it better. But that is me. These are my individual rights. It goes back to your initial assertion that we are all not one thing. We are a third this and we're a third that. And if we had to go through individual items or issues that decide how we vote, morality, you name it, guess what? We would all be all over the place. We wouldn't be in the Democratic Party. Which is why I wish there wasn't a Democratic Party. But to your point, trans athletes is not an issue at all. There are 500,000, I believe, 500,000 college athletes. How many are transgender? Maybe a dozen. Yeah, maybe a dozen. It's not even a. It's not even. It's not even a real issue. And so I agree with you, it has become politicized. But when things are politicized, we're afraid to talk about it. And I don't think what I said was offensive, and I don't think that I am saying I don't want to be around transgender people and they should not compete. But the way we hear information today forces us to say this person took this side when there's just so much nuance in the conversation.
- [41:51]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. It's interesting to me that I think, you know, we get pulled into these kind of traps in so many ways, right? Like you. You think about even the way that, you know, the issue of abortion is kind of talked about, and even, you know, to your point, about social welfare and these government assistance programs in the way that they are constantly politicized by highlighting kind of the extreme cases, like perhaps there are no doubt people who are taking advantage of so many things. But you know what? There are also corporations that are taking advantage of social welfare programs, to be honest.
- [42:30]
Carrie Champion
Get rid of them too. Right. I'm talking all across the board. I'm not just talking about. I'm talking across the board. Yes. From top to bottom. Yes.
- [42:37]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah. And so I guess what I'm trying to kind of get at here is to say that I would, you know, it would be unfortunate in the world that I want to live in where we are making rules based on these kind of far away exceptions. And in so many ways, I think this stuff comes back to this idea of a multiracial, diverse democracy. And, you know, multiracial democracy is one where black people, white people, Latino people, whoever. As long as you are an eligible citizen, you are able to participate and have your voice heard in this country. But I also think about the ways in which women are often pushed outside of the frame or the ways that queer people are pushed outside of the frame. And I just wanna live in a country where everyone has a place and everyone can contribute to the conversation in an equal way and people aren't being relegated and pushed outside because they are different. And I actually feel like in so many ways, we're getting away from that as a baseline. I think that folks really want their group, or maybe even just themselves, to have a voice. But part of what made the civil rights movement so Special in the 1940s, 50s and 60s was this idea of coalition building where you have, on the legal front, you know, on the racial front, on the gender front, you have so many people coming together. On the immigrant status front, you have all of these groups coming together under the same banner that rights people should have them at a baseline. I think people should have rights, and they're able to come together on that particular point and move the needle in a really powerful way by working together. And I think so much of the right wing's project is to get us to think extremely individually. So the thing that they're wanting for us to do is to think so singularly about ourselves that we are unable to see the power in thinking about each other.
- [44:38]
Carrie Champion
Well, the times were different, right? There were things that we just didn't have. The civil rights movement was to give, to have these people treat us civilly. We didn't know our humanity did not exist. And it still doesn't in many ways. And I'm not talking about us as black people, but us, every marginalized group. Their humanity did not exist. And so they. Everyone had to come together because they did want to be recognized as a human being first and then everything else after that. So they were fighting for something that was really tangible and needed. So I agree with you. So now here we are, and we think we've made it. A lot of people have this complacency, and the Republican Party, to your point, has made it feel like they're taking something from you. You are being hurt. And the only reason why people respond to that is because they feel that they are better. What is this? The best quote. And I can't. And I don't know if it was Roosevelt who said it, but it was something to the effect. And maybe, you know, a man will give his last dime, will spend all of his money to make sure that he feels like he's better than the next, I. E. The black man, the immigrant, the whomever, the woman. I will do whatever it takes so people know that I am higher. There's a hierarchy that this country was built on, and it's a hierarchy that they want to put in play. I would love to live in a world where, to your point, where we all saw each other for who we are, but I don't think where we are today is. I don't know if that's feasible. And what I mean by that, Garrison, is that we are all we as a culture. We're so selfish. Yeah, we're so selfish. We're all about us.
- [46:24]
Garrison Hayes
You're right. But I want to kind of point to two. Two times kind of quickly. I think you. You make this really good point that. That we were fighting or they were fighting, our ancestors. I kind of like, spend so much time reading this stuff that I almost.
- [46:36]
Carrie Champion
It's still us. It's in us. It's right in our spirit inside.
- [46:38]
Garrison Hayes
It's part of us.
- [46:39]
Carrie Champion
Yes, yes.
- [46:40]
Garrison Hayes
But they were fighting. You're totally right. They're fighting for some. For some very basic things like, like, please let me walk on the sidewalk.
- [46:48]
Carrie Champion
Yeah, please let me eat here in this restaurant. Can I drink out of this water fountain? Can I go to that bathroom?
- [46:55]
Garrison Hayes
Exactly. Like, it's incredibly basic. And. And I think that is the silver lining in so many ways. Things were so bad that boycotting the buses was just like, yeah, I'm going to not go face these social indignities of being forced to the back or having to stand up when some white boy walks in onto the bus. And so, like, that. That part of it made it in some ways easier, I think, to get on board with the movement for progress. And I think a silver lining in this time, when you see millions of people currently set to lose healthcare coverage, that will be millions more people who are more passionate than ever before about universalizing healthcare. That will represent millions. Millions of people who are like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is not working. The way that we're trying to do this and the way that we talk, these things are being talked about, it isn't working. And so that kind of reminds me of the 60s, but it also reminds me of 2020. I think the Black Lives Matter kind of moment in 2020 is sharpened. It's made that much more effective by this collective sense that we'd all kind of been just jawed that like, wait, there's a virus that's killing people and it could get me, and I could have it and I could give it to someone I love. Like, that kind of. It shook us out of this individual kind of way of thinking. And there are people who are shaking very hard to get back into it, right. Who are working incredibly hard to make sure that you didn't wear a mask and that you didn't think about your neighbor. But for millions of people around the globe, there was this awakening, this moment of awareness. And a lot of that awakening existed beyond just the, you know, racial justice. It existed in healthcare and all these places, but it got funneled into this moment when people saw George Floyd with a knee on his neck. People were like, wait, that's wrong and we've gotta do something about it. And I think that collective that we idea is something that I anticipate will come back as things get tighter. Like, your grandmother is kind of Getting at as things get tighter, sure, you know what I mean, there's less margins. People are going to start thinking about like how do we work together to make this place better?
- [49:05]
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- [50:09]
Carrie Champion
You know, Garrison, what we're dealing with right now, I think is what it's supposed to be. History always repeats itself. And I think that we have to get down to the basics, right? What we just talked about, what our ancestors were fighting for, the basics, the basics now are different. Whether it be universal healthcare, whether it be gender affirming rights, whether, whether it be immigration, whatever it is, we are all going to have to get down to the. And I believe America gets what it deserves and that's not a bad thing. I just believe America gets what it deserves. And so if this is what America wants, this is what America has until it can be changed. Now when you are dealing with these, when you're talking to these Republicans, black Republicans more specifically, I must admit this is my blind side. I love you for doing it. I'm not emotionally mature enough to have those conversations. I'm not and I want to be. That's why I brought you on. And I wonder when approaching someone who you think should be aware of obvious racism in a party, in a political party, when you say that's really low on their, on their list of why I am or why I'm upset, what's going on in the world, I rarely meet rarely meet black people who put racism at the bottom of the totem pole.
- [51:24]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah.
- [51:25]
Carrie Champion
Why do you think that is? What is that ideology?
- [51:28]
Garrison Hayes
You know, it's complex, it's complicated. And I don't, you know, I don't know if there's any one thing. I think part of it is a defense mechanism. If I could just like, give grace to it. I think to your point about, like, talking to these people across differences, part of what I try to do is to really listen and actually to listen with good faith. To say, like, I'm assuming that that's.
- [51:48]
Carrie Champion
The pastor in you. Amen. Amen.
- [51:50]
Garrison Hayes
It probably is. I really want to assume that you are coming from a place of good faith and that you mean what you say and that you're doing it for the good, for the right reasons. Like you just want a better future for your kids and all this stuff. And like, I'm just going to assume that coming into the conversation. And so when I'm listening to these people, I think there is a degree to which I've kind of become aware of, of these kind of defense mechanisms that some of this stuff exists as. Like, I think about how in so many instances I've noticed this where black Republicans or black maga, they're the ones who are gonna wear the shirt that says I stand with Donald Trump and they're gonna have the hat on. And I look at that and like, on the one hand you could say, like, y' all are shucking and jiving. Okay, that could be a response. But on the other hand, there is something, there is a defense mechanism in there. It kind of reminds me of how sometimes people will put like that thin blue line sticker on their car to indicate to the police that I support the police.
- [52:49]
Carrie Champion
Oh, I didn't know that. Is that a thing you can.
- [52:52]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, people do that and it'll insulate you a little bit, I think, from kind of the most vicious elements of perhaps police brutality or them being maybe more on guard. And I think similarly, for people who especially operate in these white spaces, that hat and those kind of like emblems are almost a defense. Like, they set up a little bit of a barrier between them and the anti blackness or racism that they are very likely to encounter otherwise. It marks them as a safe person and it kind of invites them into a community. And so I think that's a part of it. I think a part of it is that there is a fraternity, there is a community of people who support Donald Trump and they see themselves as the outsiders and as the outcasts and misunderstood, but amongst each other, they are part of something together. In many ways. It is a cult. And so they are a part of the cult. I was gonna say they are a.
- [53:43]
Carrie Champion
Part of it, sounds like.
- [53:46]
Garrison Hayes
And so I kind of. I think that's a part of it for sure. But then there are also issues. There are issues that they care about. And so you gotta acknowledge the issues as well.
- [53:56]
Carrie Champion
When you left the RNC and there was one moment, and you guys should definitely follow Garrison Hazen and check out his YouTube, also Instagram. But when you left the RNC, there was a moment prior to you leaving where the black Republicans were gathering. And it was. You said it was a joyous event. And it just so happens that Donald Trump's motorcade drove by and they were under the impression there was a bit of a frenzy for a few moments in which they thought Donald Trump was coming to say hi to them. Because they are in that special group. They are. They are accepted. They are one of his, if you will, cult members. Not necessarily cold, but you know what I mean. And then what happened?
- [54:39]
Garrison Hayes
And he just drove by and there was palpable disappointment in the room. I encourage people to go watch the video. I think title is I spent a week with black Republicans. There was some very, very real disappointment in that moment. And I think in so many ways it was emblematic of the larger issue. We're now a year or so later. And there, you know, I posted this on Threads the other day that I'm amazed at how little airtime black Republicans have gotten in the last six months of this presidency. I mean, they were so central. It really felt like every day you'd see Representative Byron Donalds or you'd see Senator Tim Scott. You see all these people out there really pushing, you know, for go support Trump. And a year later, some of those people I've literally not seen at all, at all. Like, I don't know where Senator Tim Scott is. I have no idea where the man is, and maybe I should just Google him. But it seems as though his media, you know, is just way down. I say that to say that in the moment, it felt like they were the center of the world. I'm at this event for black Republicans at the rnc and it's this really great event. And it felt like Trump was coming there, but in reality he was just passing by. And that feels like this real kind of almost like a parable.
- [56:07]
Carrie Champion
Let's sit with that for a moment. You just said they thought Trump was coming to Visit them and be there and relate and commune with them. But he was just passing by.
- [56:18]
Garrison Hayes
Just passing by.
- [56:19]
Carrie Champion
Where is Tim Scott? Where are these black Republicans that you. That you had on stage with you at the rnc? You were just passing by. You were just in translation, using them. I needed you for the moment. Thank you. Appreciate it. That is powerful.
- [56:37]
Garrison Hayes
I think it is. There's this. This. This book called the Loneliness of the Black Republican, and it is about the history of black people trying to. Just trying to find a place in American politics. And I think that there's a. We're living in a moment right now where black people are incredibly frustrated with the Democratic Party. And so. And that frustration has also existed with the Republican Party. There's a part in that book where Jackie Robinson and hey, we're bringing it back to sports, baby.
- [57:14]
Carrie Champion
Yes, always.
- [57:15]
Garrison Hayes
Where Jackie Robinson is one of the kind of most. He's the most famous black Republican in the country at the time. He's this incredibly conservative person. He won't call Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Ali because he doesn't really believe in all that jive. Right. Like, that's kind of his vibe. And yet Barry Goldwater, who is this real racist and really a precursor in so many ways to what we see in Donald Trump, he was just out there calling for segregation and being a racist. And Jackie Robinson, who is the Republican of Republicans among black people, an emissary calling black people back into the Republican Party, he stands up and says, I can't get on board with this. There's this moment where he's like, I'm just, I can't do this. And I've been waiting for that moment among some of the more prominent black Republicans where they stand up and just say, okay, this DEI stuff, like the fact that you are leveraging this to take away access for my community, I'm waiting for them to stand up and just say, I can't do that. That's a bridge too far for me. Even the way that the ICE agents and even the National Guard have been deployed and just the rhetoric in general, I've been waiting for that moment and is yet to come. And I think in many ways it is, because American politics have really moved so far away from integrity and more into tribalism. You know, Jackie Robinson had a moral compass that led him for the majority of his life to vote for and support Republicans. That's his business. But he also had a moral compass that would not allow him to stand idly by while racist bigots were gaining political power in his name. And So I think we're kind of, we've moved away from that in so many ways. And I look at some of the, I won't, you know, mention specific candidates or, or specific individuals, but I look at some of the voices, the younger voices especially, who are really bringing back this moral courage to stand against the things that they stand against. And if you accept that, you accept that, if you reject it, that's your business as well. But I believe this thing, and I'm going to stand up for it. And so that's encouraging me. But I'm still, I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting, Carrie. I'm still waiting.
- [59:35]
Carrie Champion
I'm curious if you can, for our listeners, can you describe the history of the Republican Party from its inception and the history of the Democratic Party? Yeah, I think it's important because I don't know if many people understand the ebb and flow of the parties and how they have, what happens is these parties, and we can see this in real time with the Republican Party, they transform. At one point, as a, you know, in my recent memory, when I was old enough to really pay attention, the Democratic Party was the party of the working class. And we were. They were. I won't say we because I'm a registered independent, but it was where you would go if you wanted to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and do that hard work you talked about. And the Republicans were always the rich party. Not that that's changed, but there is a marketing turn in how we describe it now. So historically speaking, what was the Republican Party? Did it consist of black people? Were they for slavery? Were they against slavery?
- [60:42]
Garrison Hayes
I wanted to know how these black people could be drawn into Trump's political orbit. So I talked to Pastor Lorenzo Sewell.
- [60:49]
Carrie Champion
Yeah.
- [60:49]
Pastor Lorenzo Sewell
So anyone that wants to come to church, they're able to come. So when President Trump called, I thought about it like you calling me and say, pastor, I want to invite a friend to church who has 34 felonies. Hey, Pastor, I want to invite a friend to church who is a womanizer. Hey, Pastor, I want to invite a friend to church who could be a racist.
- [61:07]
Garrison Hayes
He's the lead pastor at a black church in Detroit that Trump visited earlier this year. And he was also a featured speaker at the rnc.
- [61:14]
Pastor Lorenzo Sewell
So all my friends back in Detroit who are Democrats, I want to ask you just one simple question. You can't deny the power of God on this man's life. You can't deny, deny that God protected him. Could it be that Jesus Christ Preserved him for such a time as this. Could it be.
- [61:36]
Garrison Hayes
Why should black people support the Republican ticket and Donald Trump specifically?
- [61:41]
Pastor Lorenzo Sewell
That's a good question. You know, what I would say to any black person is this specifically about the Republican platform? I would say, look, do your research, right? I would say, look back to 170 years ago in this state where a group of patriots stood up and they started that Grand Old Party to stop the expansion of slavery. If a black person said, well, pastor, Donald Trump is racist. The Republican Party is racist. Well, let's play that theme out throughout history. Let's look at who was the party of slavery, who was the party of Jim Crow. Right. Who's the party of, you know, the slave codes? Well, those are Democrats. Let's have that conversation. And when you look at when the Senate was integrated, those were black Republicans. When we look at Frederick Douglass, black Republican. So that's on the political side.
- [62:27]
Garrison Hayes
I won't pretend to be a historian here. I just like to read the things. And so I would encourage you to read as well. You know, the Loneliness of the Black Republican by Leah Wright Regurgit. It's a really good one, I think. You know, there are a number of books I love Ta Nehisi Coates, We Were Eight Years in Power. Love this book. Love it on that topic. And so there's some history here. In short, though, the kind of layman's version. As a lay historian in my own right, I guess I don't know, I don't know if I can even call myself that.
- [62:57]
Carrie Champion
Don't worry, like, if you, like, if you get it wrong, I'm going to be like, he got it wrong, y'.
- [63:00]
Garrison Hayes
All.
- [63:00]
Carrie Champion
I'm kidding.
- [63:02]
Garrison Hayes
No, no. What I will say is that, you know, there was certainly a time where the Republican Party obviously was the party of Lincoln. That party fought for emancipation in its own way, not necessarily because they were pro black. Right. But for their own political kind of, you know, reasons. They, they fought for slave, for the end of slavery. A good book for that is W.E.B. du Bois, black Reconstruction, which is a really, really good book. Very necessary. Okay. That's said also.
- [63:39]
Carrie Champion
16, 19 too. Like, she. Amazing.
- [63:42]
Garrison Hayes
Okay, Go have it somewhere.
- [63:43]
Carrie Champion
I know you used to have it. You're right. Yeah. But go on normally.
- [63:47]
Garrison Hayes
Okay. All that said, you know, obviously there are these kind of pro and anti. And so this. The Southern Democrats really are the anti abolition party in, like, explicitly. Right. And so as black people gain access to participation in democracy, the natural home for black voters in the north and in parts of the south, where this was allowed, especially during Reconstruction, the natural home is the Republican Party. And so you see all of the first governors and or congresspeople and representatives and state and local officials, all those people identified as Republicans. And this was true for most of the 1800s into the early 1900s. But as the civil rights movement begins to grow in the early 1900s, black people are still looking for a home. And to remind you, the Republican Party was never pro black. We know this. Abraham Lincoln did not believe that black people were equal with white people. He said so explicitly. And so in this moment of real tension, the kind of inflection point is that black people come back from the war, World War I, World War II especially, and they're like, yo, I fought for this country. I deserve my rights. Who's gonna help me fight for this? And there were decades where that was pretty unclear. But by the time you get to the 50s, where there's a fight for education, access, and obviously the civil rights movement, which comes into focus in the 1960s as we understand it, there becomes this kind of push and pull. And JFK ultimately becomes an ally to the kings around this issue. And that is in many ways how black people started to flood into the Democratic party. Now, again, Dr. Leah Wright rogueur really digs into the specifics of this in her book about black Republicans. But that is kind of the. Those are the larger contours. There is this kind of push and pull around who's going to be on our side. And for a time, that looked like Republicans. And after a while, that became very clear that the Republicans were against it and the Democrats were for it, and the Republicans saw an opportunity. What we know as the Southern Strategy after the Civil rights movement, where they said, if we could make ourselves more appealing to the Southern Democrats, we will be able to control the South. And so their Southern strategy is to appeal to the right white racists in the South. And that's how we get the modern day Republican Party is that decision with Lee Atwater in the late 1960s and 70s.
- [66:19]
Carrie Champion
I think that we have a version of that story. I think a lot of people who've done any. Not a lot of people, but I think a lot of people who have platforms have a version of why that is. But you say something and you've said it several times, and I think this is something we should explore. Black people are still looking for a home today, then. And now we're still looking for a home. There is not. There doesn't feel. It doesn't feel like in terms of a political party, that speaks to our spirit. And maybe it's because one political party can't do that, and all black people don't belong to one political party. Maybe we should be spread out, as you said, one third this, one third that. And would that be okay culturally? I'm curious in your mind, what that would look like.
- [67:10]
Garrison Hayes
I'll say this. I don't think that. I don't, you know, do what you want to do for people. But what I will say is, so long as the Republican Party is still playing by the Southern Strategy playbook of appealing to racists as a way to build political power, so long as that's happening, I do not think that black people in any significant sense will ever align with that party. I think, you know, to get a little newsy, Elon Musk is starting the America Party, right? Kind of potentially viable third party. But so long as Elon Musk is doing what appear to be Nazi salutes and he's amplifying the voices of bigots on his platform, black people won't feel safe there. They won't feel seen there. And so in so many ways, we're between a rock and a hard place. We are in this really kind of difficult tension. And I'm hopeful that people will listen to that tension. I think that black political power. You know, I did a radio show around this. I called it Red, Black and Blue. And I called it that because I wanted to put black people at the center of the kind of political story in America. And I do think that there is a need for someone. I don't know who it will be, but there needs to be someone who will actually take that seriously. The South. Let me just make the case for taking black people seriously as a political force. Most black people live in the south, and yet black people's political will is not very well realized down here precisely because Republicans have taken very seriously the idea that if they can disenfranchise and gerrymander and kind of like they're constantly being sued for getting rid of black majority districts and breaking these things up, if they can do that, they can continue to win. And it feels to me that. That Democrats have not taken seriously that there are so many black people in Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia and Tennessee that are ready to go out and vote, so long as you represent their interests. And so I'm hopeful that at some point in the near future, hopefully sooner than later, our political interests will be taken seriously.
- [69:27]
Carrie Champion
I agree with you. And I don't know I don't know what that is. I don't know what the malaise is. I don't know what the fear is. We are now, and I'm watching this in real time, the current president and his administration has made it in vogue to push the limits, to remove the political conversation, to. And what I mean by remove the political conversation, it's the way he talks. It's very. It's not as if I am in an office of authority. There is this behind the scenes, this fourth wall that we are looking at. And it's. And it's very real and authentic. And for some reason people are fascinated. I've never seen the fascination with a president that I see with Donald Trump. I've seen it with Barack, who you just recently interviewed. I've also seen it with President Clinton. But this is different. There is a fascination, maybe even a respect that I can't understand. I can't understand why it's okay for him to not be well versed. I can't understand why he doesn't know more than a sixth grader. I can't understand why he can go on television and lie. And we know he's lying, right? But there is this compliance and agreement that makes it seem like this lie is okay. I use this example. Do you know Bill Ackman? Ackman. You know that.
- [70:55]
Garrison Hayes
I don't know him personally, but I know who he is.
- [70:58]
Carrie Champion
So he most recently, I think purchased his way into a tennis tournament. A challenger is what they call it. It's a amateur tournament, but it's at the hall of Fame and it's in Rhode Island. And he played doubles with a tennis pro named Jack Sock who is somewhat retired, semi retired. He hasn't played until 2023. This tour that he played in, this, this, this tournament that he played in is for people who really, truly want to play tennis, who are journeymen in tennis, because that's a tough sport. It's expensive. You travel all the time. You need a coach, you need to spend money to get to the actual place to play. And it's an international sport. So they have these things called challengers and they give out wild cards to people who are trying to get their rankings back up or to up and comers who are good. And it's done at this, this particular tournament. They have a ton. But this particular tournament is called the hall of Fame and it is exactly that. It's for the greats. And so somehow Some way this 60 year old man gets a wild card into the tournament. So he can live out his full dream. By way of background. By way of background, he's bankrolling the ptpa, which is the Professional Tennis Players Association. He's helping bankroll that. He helped raise $26 million to get that going. So he has made friends with all of the greats, and he's casually friendly with him, and then all of a sudden, he decides at 59, 60 years old, that he wants to play in a real tennis tournament. Now, you would think because it's sports, they say, sir, this isn't for amateur. This is. You're not even. You're 60. You're not even. This is not even real. It's not even a real thing. And when he played those two sets, it was so uncomfortable to watch this man barely get the ball across the net. But what that, to me, says is that we are living in a country where it's okay to push the limits and see who's going to say what, because no one is saying anything. If I have money, if I have power, if I have access, which has always been the case, but now I'm just doing it so blatantly. And that's what I believe this administration has allowed to happen. If you see this as an example, why not me? If this man can get on TV and ask for a plane for another country, if I. If I could. If I could sit in your office and. And be Benjamin Netanyahu and hand you a letter for a Nobel Peace Prize nomination because you deserve it. For what? I don't know why. Because he solved. He solved. He had. There's world peace in Africa now. No, there's not. Like, come on. But there is something about this fascination that I can't quite understand. And I feel like while we are looking for a home as a people, that there really, truly is no place for us that makes sense right now. And I don't know why there's a silence around it. That's my question to you.
- [73:49]
Garrison Hayes
This is. This is what I'll say, Carrie, first of all, like, I'm thankful for platforms like this, where we're having these conversations. And so hats off to you for that. But, you know, we have a good friend in Angela Rye, who is. Who's. Who organized this State of the People Power Tour along with a few others. And I think it was exactly right. It was rightly timed. And I love the places that they chose to kind of host these, you know, these gatherings. One was in Louisville, Kentucky. They had one in Mississippi, in Jackson, Mississippi, and Baltimore and all of these.
- [74:27]
Carrie Champion
Detroit and all these places, Atlanta, all.
- [74:30]
Garrison Hayes
These amazing places where there are lots of black people. And I think it's the right thing and at the right time. And I'll tell you why. You know, after the Civil Rights movement success, there were all of these groups that came together to make sure that they could build the necessary political power to have the America that they wanted to have. Now I think we are living in the America that they imagined right now. And Donald Trump is generational TV talent. I think that's part of it, right? Like you, he gets on the Apprentice. The Apprentice, he gets a mic and a camera. You fly it. This guy is like really good. He's really, really good. And that's how he kind of gets so much attention. And so he is kind of the figurehead in some ways. He's the face of something much more strategic over a much longer time. I do not believe that Donald Trump, who did not know Liberia, was an American colony. I don't think that he really understands the intricacies of the office, the OMB or the way to like, you know what I'm saying? The alien. I don't think he knows all of these kind of minute laws and these little codes that they're now leveraging to kind of carry out this agenda. So I don't give him that much credit. I give him credit for being able to talk really, really good on tv, but I don't give him credit for being able to actually lead. And the reason why they're getting things done is because There was a 50 year plan in place that was intent on undermining the courts, that was intent on undermining the media, the press that was intent on undermining the university. That's what was in place. They established the Federalist Society so that they could interpret laws in a really conservative, regressive way, and they could lobby and raise a ton of money to make sure that those lawyers and legal minds ended up as judges. So that when they got to 2025 and the person did, whoever was in office, did the thing that they've been planning to do when those things, when lawsuits were brought against them, they would end up winning because they had already stacked the deck on the court level. They did what they set out to undermine the press and to create alternative forms of media so that there would never be the ability to undermine what they say, right? To completely pull apart the concept of truth. They set out to kind of gerrymander and to win on state and local levels for decades so that they could enact Their vision for America on every single level. And I think right now you mentioned that. I talked to President Barack Obama recently. One of the things that I asked him is like, where are you? Everyone's wondering where you've been and they want you to be more out there. And he told me, he's like, hey, I'm out here. But the thing that he kind of talked about that I took note of, was that through the foundation, the Obama foundation, they've been building all kinds of necessary leadership kind of capital. They've been building up these young leaders who they want to lead in the future. And I appreciate that future focused idea because I think in so many ways, Democrats are really focused on the moment. They want to win in 2026, they want to win back the House, they want to win the presidency in 2028. But really you need the kind of vision that will look 40 years down the road and say, this is the kind of America I want to live in, or I want my children to live in, or maybe even my grandchildren to live in in 40 years. And how do I reverse engineer a plan that gets us there? And so to bring it full circle, I think that what Angela and the State of the People Power Tour are doing is that's a kind of a necessary part of that larger push to have an America that we will want to live in in a decade or 20 years, or 30 years or 40 years. And I think a lot of people are neglecting that. And so what's the response to the Federalist Society? Who's putting together an organization that can put more progressive people, you know, human centered judges on the bench, you know what I mean? Like, who's doing that? Because ultimately, Gary, I want us to win on the issues of humanity. I really want to win on racism. I don't want racism to win. I want to beat racism, guys. And I don't think that's too much to ask. And I'm hoping that there are people who are thinking strategically about bringing that vision to reality.
- [79:04]
Carrie Champion
You say, you know, you say what I say. I was like, I wonder. There's. I hope there's somebody who's doing it right now. I hope there's somebody who's doing it right now. Have you ever thought of doing it right now? My friends always say that to me. My friends are like, you always want to say something. Why don't you just be the change? I said, I'm. I'm participating in the way in which I have been blessed to participate. I am doing the work that I can. The work that I know that I have the capacity to do. But there is a part of me that looks at the. Looks at you or looks at other people and think, this would be a great leader. Why wouldn't he run? And I. And it's easy to pass the buck and it's easy to ask someone else to do it because we see something in them. But I also know, and I. And I don't know if you struggle with this. When people ask me that, I struggle with. If I'm being really candid and naked, I struggle with, well, how does this affect me personally? How am I going to. If I say something so real and so honest, will I ever be able to make a living? Will I be ostracized out of the community that I've known? Most recently, I've had two different people say, well, be careful. You know, when you're on cnn, be careful. You gotta be careful. They be. Don't be fighting with them white people on tv. Gotta be careful. It makes me angry to my core when I hear that. And my response has been. And I shouldn't be defensive, but my response is, was Harriet Tubman careful?
- [80:28]
Garrison Hayes
Real.
- [80:28]
Carrie Champion
What if she decided that she didn't want to do anything for the people so that they could be free? What if Martin Luther King Jr. Got tired? What if Malcolm X got tired and said, no, I. I got to be careful? We would not be able to enjoy the freedoms that we have today. And I truly understand that this country is only held together by a few individuals that really care for the country as a whole and the way in which you describe it. But do you ever struggle with that? Do you ever struggle with, am I doing too much? Am I saying too much? Will this cost me down the line? What does my future look like if I continue on this path?
- [81:10]
Garrison Hayes
No, absolutely, absolutely. I think about, you know, future kids. I don't have kids today, but I think about a future, you know, or my family or any of that, you know, I mean, you are a public figure, so you know that there are crazy folks out there who are. Who are DMing you something nuts right now, right?
- [81:29]
Carrie Champion
No, they're not even. They're not even respectful enough to make it a dm. It's under my comments.
- [81:33]
Garrison Hayes
Oh, my God.
- [81:34]
Carrie Champion
It's not even. They can't even hide it. They're like, just because I hate you, you idiot. Sin.
- [81:38]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, there's like a real person on the other side of that, probably.
- [81:45]
Carrie Champion
Talking to me so raggedy. I so unfortunate.
- [81:50]
Garrison Hayes
Sideways. No, I hear You, I, I think about that stuff often. And so, yeah, I, you know, I don't, you know, I, I think that truthfully, like, we are already leaders in this work. Their media matters. I really believe in it. And I believe that telling the truth matters. Your voice is important and it's important to use it in a way that helps liberate people. And so I do think that in some ways we are already doing this. I know that your question is more so like official kind of elected leadership. And I don't know about that. I don't know if anything like that is in my future, but I really enjoy being able to, again, tell the truth and be able to kind of tell these stories, as I've said earlier, that are often left untold and the way it might inspire someone. I'll tell you this. You know, I got an email last year from a parent who said, hey, I'm. I'm watching your videos. I do this series called about that Life where I talk about, you know, these black, these radical kind of resistance, black history figures usually. And it's not just only black people, but it's usually black people who did something and pushed for some change and bucked against the status quo. And this mom, she's like, in Texas, she says, hey, I'm a homeschool mom here in Texas. I have a cohort of other moms and we all come together and I screenshot your videos and take the information from your videos. And it is a part of our curriculum. I'm just mind blown by this, like, what she's going through all this work. And it encouraged me because it means that it's effective and it's helping someone. And there's going to be some kid who now knows about Charles Hamilton Houston, and he would not have known about that guy otherwise, perhaps especially in a state like Texas. And so now he's going to kind of like, or she is going to learn and maybe be better and be a more effective leader as a result of it. And so I think what we're doing is important and I think it's important that we continue to do it in.
- [83:48]
Carrie Champion
The way in which we can do it in the way in which it makes sense and feels authentic. That's all my. I just want to be able to feel like I'm really being true to myself. There are times in which I'm measured and yes, and I have a filter. But you know, at my core, I'm just saying, recognize our humanity. We deserve. It's not right. And by the way, it's not just for black people. I feel that way across the board. I'm the kind of person, if I'm walking down the street and I see somebody getting treated unfairly, I'm like, hey, hold on. My friends have told me before, mind your business. You get beat up in New York. Mind your business. Yeah, I'm that version. Mind your business. You're going to get beat up in New York. But I am the person to say, well, that's not right. And that's just who I am. And trust me, Harrison, if I could be any different, I would. I tell my friends that all the time. If I could just sit home and be cute and not my. And mind my business, I would. I really would. It's an easier life. No one wants to deal with this. No one wants anybody in your comments calling you all kind of names. But I am grateful for you. I am grateful for the work that you do. I think that I would love to have you on forever. It's been an hour and change, and I could talk to you all day because it is a reminder of what we should be doing. Your work is invaluable. Keep teaching the children, myself included. And last but not least, I really want you to talk about your book so people know to go out and get your book. Before I let you go. You did something special.
- [85:09]
Garrison Hayes
Oh, wow. Thank you so much for the kind words and for having me here. This is a real honor. I'm gonna go brag in my truth that. That I spent an hour talking to.
- [85:18]
Carrie Champion
Carrie Campbell, and she thinks you're the best.
- [85:20]
Garrison Hayes
And she thinks that too. On the record.
- [85:23]
Carrie Champion
On the record. It's a big deal.
- [85:25]
Garrison Hayes
Behind me, I have the book, a kid's book about Juneteenth. I wrote this book to literally bring the story of Juneteenth to families, to caretakers and children, and to make sure that the story continues on. You know, we know that this is now a federal holiday currently, hopefully it remains. But it's also such an important history of the way that black people have leveraged joy and solidarity for progress and for survival and to thrive even. Right? And so that's why I wrote the book. You can get it wherever books are sold. It's a kid's book about Juneteenth. I appreciate you letting me plug that. I don't get to talk about it as much. Post June 19th. Like June 20th.
- [86:11]
Carrie Champion
It's over.
- [86:12]
Garrison Hayes
It's over.
- [86:13]
Carrie Champion
You got like a two week period to talk about it. Your book, literally.
- [86:16]
Garrison Hayes
Literally. There's like A two week period.
- [86:18]
Carrie Champion
Bring it back in February.
- [86:20]
Garrison Hayes
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will do that. I will do that. But I, but I, I love that it exists and, and I love that people are grabbing the book. And I appreciate you for, for having me and for this really great conversation.
- [86:31]
Carrie Champion
Keep doing the work. Thank you, Garrison Hayes, for joining us on Naked Sports.
- [86:34]
Garrison Hayes
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [86:36]
Carrie Champion
All right, folks, thanks so much for joining us on this edition of Naked Sports. I hope you learned something that is always, always, always the number one goal. I want to point out that next weekend, next weekend, WNBA All Star. Tune in, watch, support the ladies, help change this narrative. Stop talking about who's jealous of whom. And even if they are, add the so what? Because does it matter? It's all going to get handled on the court. And then if it doesn't get handled on the court specifically, you'll hear about it. You'll hear about it. All right, y', all, I'm gonna go to the WNBA All Star. @ least that's my intention. I'll keep y' all posted if I do. I'm also heading to Vegas. Shout out to my girl, Swin Cash. You guys have to support Swin Cash. Speaking of wnba, she is an all star, a legend, hall of famer, and she's having a huge, huge, huge conference for women in sports. And she was so generous enough to invite me to speak. So I'm excited to be there. And we're just gonna talk about all the things changing, the narratives, being loud and proud and what's next for the future in front of the camera and behind the scenes. So shout out to Swin Cash. And when I come back, I'll tell you all about the festivities. Those I was able to make and those I wasn't able to make. My cue card is full, man. I got lots going on. All right, y', all, thanks for listening to Naked Sports. Talk to y' all next week. Naked Sports written and executive produced by me, Carrie Champion Produced by Jacques Thomas. Sound designed and mastered by Duane Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the Black Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia.
- [88:16]
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- [88:47]
Carrie Champion
This is an iHeart podcast.