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- [00:04]
A
It's the Broadway show Uncut. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Tamsen Fadal and we have got a lot to talk about. Cats. The Jellicle Ball is now on Broadway and just celebrated opening night. It's a reimagining of Andrew Lloyd Webber's classic musical Cats, but set in the world of ballroom. Here's Paul Wontorek with more.
- [00:25]
B
You know, people throw around the word legend a lot these days, but I consider all three of you legends. So I'm thrilled to be sitting with you and I really wanted to gather us all to talk about Cats. Angelica Ball, now because Junior, of course, you are a legend of the ballroom scene and you are such a verse of authenticity in the middle of this production. And Ken, you are a Cats legend because I saw you in the original company, 1982, you were Macavity. And Andre, you're just Broadway legend, full stop. Tony winning Broadway legend.
- [00:56]
C
I'll take that. Yeah.
- [00:57]
B
Junior, how do you feel starting on Broadway? Was Broadway ever something that you even imagined would enter your life?
- [01:03]
D
No, nor did I anticipate it. It's a gift.
- [01:07]
B
Yeah.
- [01:08]
D
And because it's a gift, I receive it with honor and respect because I was guided to meet the Broadway deity, Mr. Andre de Shields. So that was my universal approach.
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B
You never crossed paths?
- [01:26]
D
No.
- [01:27]
C
First day of rehearsal for Cats, the Jellicoe Ball is when we met. And I might say it was love at first sight, but it took a while for us to share it.
- [01:41]
B
You don't have to like throw the love on each other right from jump.
- [01:44]
C
Right.
- [01:45]
D
But there's a reason and I would like to explain it concise. He is a man of color and he is Broadway. I am a radical man of color, gender non conforming and I'm bordering. I held my first mic in an after hours spot. Now I'm on Broadway with a man that has spoke on stages throughout his entire life. At a point when I wasn't able to afford to see him, I stood outside the theater to hear his voice on along with his co star Stephanie Mills. So for the universe and my ideology to be presented to him in a room, I was overwhelmed. Like, oh, this is only going to be for two weeks. It was a pleasure to meet you. Let me know how it goes. And I was out the door. That was my radical thought, like, why am I going to be here? And here I am.
- [02:44]
B
You were joining the House of Asia, I think kind of saved your life at that point in time. Right. And around the same time, you Were
- [02:52]
C
on Broadway doing the Wiz.
- [02:55]
D
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you used that word because I want to refine it.
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B
Okay.
- [03:01]
D
The house of Labrador did not save my life. They enhanced my life. And the parable that I often use, if you see the ten commandments with Charleston Heston, his mother sent him to Egypt to be saved. When I decided to be an openly gay youth, the God of my understanding sent me to the house of labeija, where I was going to be, as you just said, saved. Because it was my intentions to be a full fledged woman, but I didn't want to be a poor black woman. So the house of labeija and his camaraderie and freedom of speech and expression was excellent for me.
- [03:45]
B
That was around the same time Andre was sort of having a huge Broadway triumph and your career was really taking off. It's so fascinating to think of where you all were at the same Ken, when did you come to New York?
- [03:55]
E
I came to New York in 1982.
- [03:58]
B
Okay.
- [03:58]
E
I was driven by this man because of the Wiz and because of Ain't Misbehavin. My dance teacher actually introduced me to those records. And we were doing jazz dance in the studio, and I was doing it to the Wiz and Ain't Misbehavin. And I thought, that's what I want to be. I want to do what he's doing. And so to be here sitting on this couch, I just told him, is just a euphoric feeling. My career has been standing on his shoulders, and now here I am sitting next to him.
- [04:27]
B
Have you ever crossed paths before? And I know again, Ken Page, your Amos Behaven co star, was in the original Cats with Ken.
- [04:36]
C
Yes.
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B
And playing your role now, I mean, there's, you know, there's so many Broadway characters.
- [04:40]
C
I'm actually playing his role because he. Ken Page, Absolutely.
- [04:46]
E
Yeah.
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B
Yes.
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C
Created the role on Broadway.
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D
Yeah.
- [04:50]
B
Old Deuteronomy.
- [04:50]
C
Old Deuteronomy. So I'm Old Deuteronomy Ray Dukes. But there are celebrity judges in the show, and they are part of the preamble long before you meet Old Deuteronomy. I'm in my dressing room getting ready for my entrance. So I don't get to see who the celebrity judges are until I walk the Runway. So this night I'm on the Runway and I recognize this rather larger than life body sitting in the judge's seat wearing his white suit. And as I get closer to him, I go, oh, that's Ken Page. And I'm playing the role that he created. So tonight, dear God, let me not make any mistakes.
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B
Wow.
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C
Because there he is. Here I am.
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D
Yeah.
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C
He's judging me according to what he created.
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B
And how did that go for you?
- [06:08]
C
It went very well. It went very well after the fact. We met in the lobby and we hugged each other and we cried and he said, I forgive you. I said, thank you.
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B
I love that.
- [06:27]
D
Yeah.
- [06:29]
B
Junior, you're playing Gus, the theater cat, which is a role I've always loved. Gus. Gus is a real theater character and I love that you're new to the theater. It's so exciting that you have this showcase moment and you get to see all the kids, all the kittens right around you sort of looking up to you. What is it like to be center stage doing a moment like that in a theatrical production?
- [06:48]
D
It's a shift because I do the same thing as the master of ceremony for ballroom. I'm able to influence the audience as opposed to audience being influencing me. And the correlation is that following the storyline of today 2026, Gus is gender non conforming. When you look at guns, you see the beautiful man that is displaying his femininity to let you see. Had he been given the opportunity and the correct passage to feminization, I would have been a beautiful woman. However, in the social climate that I'm in, I am letting everyone know that through me. The immaculate Conception through which Dudarani gave to me to give to the kittens. Everything within me, I gave to each kitten. For example, Deuteronomy enters our sacred space. Everyone is there to meet and greet him, some for the first time. But these are my children from him. So he has to be reminded that McCafferty is, is our daughter. Rum Tugga could be our grandson. Grizabella could be our daughter. Rumble Teaser and Monkey Sharp and Mungo Jerry and Baby and Tumble Brutus are all of the children that I had to teach and discipline and nurture in a discipline that I could not have because I was his concubine. You know, according to poem, he had 99 wives. And I'm sitting up there. Well, if that's the count, then it should be 100, because I'm over here. But you see that throughout the play. The play or the musical. And the other beauty about it is, is that the humanity and the family values and the culture and tradition that is placed. My daughter McCavity is a full dose. Her father has mercy and kisses her and tells her to go. He takes on the responsibility that I own this. I'm responsible for this. Very good of you, however, I want to be young again. And had Grizabella not been there, I would have been the angelical choice, or I'd have pulled Deuteronomy's whiskers off his face. So that happens is he consoles me to know you're not going to go. But you know why. We're going to send our daughter back, Grizabella. That's why. When you see throughout different parts of the play, I'm making gestures. They're not just hand movements, but I'm telling my children, come, do the hand movement, do the arm movement, do the vogue, do the realness, but at the same time, respect your father's presence. And that's what I'm glad that the audience grasp with Gus, the theater cat. Oh, he has a position in this version of the play. He is actually important. I've heard theater goers say in conversations since our pack performance, you know, until you, I never understood Gus. Now I understand Gus. So they understand the ageism, the rebirth, the revitalization, the restoration, and that nobody wants to be forgotten. It's not that we're scared to be old, but don't want to be forgotten.
- [10:33]
C
I simply want to say, sir Andrew Lloyd Webber, I hope you are listening, because Junior labeija just revealed some storytelling that all of the individuals from the original company had no idea was in the body of Katz.
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B
Well, it's wild because this show is fascinating to me because I fell in love with it as a kid and just loved it for what it was. And over the years of discussing it with actors, performers who've done Cats, and I've learned about all of these character relationships that I like. There's all this backstory, and some of it feels like fan fiction and all of this extra stuff. And then you get to see this production which just cracks it open in completely different ways. And it's like, who knew that Cats had so much to chew on? Right?
- [11:29]
C
Well, obviously, the denizens of the ball culture knew. And now this intersection between history and evolution is the first opportunity that we could inspect and discover and embrace all of that. Because the underground, if you will, those of us who have been traditionally marginalized to the edges of society have now discovered one another. We've embraced one another. We are now leading the social revolution of the 21st century.
- [12:13]
B
What is it like to be presenting this on the Broadway stage? I mean, you know, it's very easy to just think of it as another stage. You're doing the show in another place. But the impact of a Broadway show, I Mean, you can't. The representation that comes from this and the people coming into this theater who will get to experience this. I mean, it's probably, you know, there's been a lot of talk about ballroom culture. Obviously from Paris Burning it became, you know, more known, introduced it to me, right. Madonna, Vogue, pose. But a Broadway show, and a Broadway show lives on in very different ways. This is probably the most, the biggest audience that will get to experience this in a unique way. How does that feel to you, Junior?
- [12:59]
D
There was a club called the Red Parrot and one of my predecessor name was Dorian Corey, you know, the mummified body queen that left and she didn't get charged. Yes. And we was doing a jungle number where she was Fay Ray and me and my co dancer was the pot boiling Africans while she's being Fay Ray, blonde, curled hair. And we played the part. And I said to the audience, there is a new superstar that is about to arrive. And they said, who Junior? I said, her name is Madonna. And the reason why she's going to be a superstar is because she took the mother of Christ's name and she took the crucifix of Christ and put it between her legs on stage. The largest group of Catholicism members saw her do that. She is going to be a superstar down the line. She came to the balls and she saw and she did something that. I use a phrase that's legendary. I came, I saw, I conquered. She came, she saw the House of Extravaganza. She put them on stage with her and she did vogue. What she did in that moment, she. She allowed others to see that it was okay or safe to slum. Let's keep it real. To slum. What you're asking me, in my perception about Broadway is that I now have the responsibility and the accountability to show all those on the Great White way that take out that word white. It's the great way. What Sir Andrew Lloyd Weber allowed me to do twice is to show and he used the word that I'm unpretentious to me. And there's two ways to take that. But he's right. I am unpretentious because I am naturally Junior LaBeija. So it's naturally for me to be Gus because I am the theater cat of my culture of traditions of Harlem. Yet on Broadway, what I'm able to infuse only because of the family values of Deuteronomy and the synagogue or the theater or the temple that we worship in, I'm able to share the values that is plaguing Us, right now, in this time period, when you see the cops enter the synagogue, that is a violation of democracy. That is a violation of one's belief and tradition that they was given. But the one thing that's poignant to me, and it's true all over the world, that if you want to take away people's power, culture and tradition, the most important thing you do to them is let them know that you will take away the most important thing that they have. And that's their life. So it doesn't matter where it's at. Broadway, Aborigines, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba. When you threaten a person's life, that's the end of it. But there's another astronaut in with this. All human beings need health, nourishment, housing, education and employment to live, whether in an igloo or the grass jungle roots. When you take those things away, you take away their opportunity to live. Well, what this play has done is showing the world because 400,000 people go on Times Square daily, but 5 million sit in theater. I got that demographic from a person that's in the Broadhurst Theater for almost candy, 100 years said it. So when 5 million sit down, they're able to say amongst themselves, had I been aware of this, I would not have lost my child, my husband, my daughter, my father in law, my cousin, my aunt or uncle, who wanted to be authentic. So when I sit with Ken and I sit with Andre, I pay homage to the reality that we have evolved and it's no different. There are sequences that are happening now that I sit in my dressing room alone and I listen to Luciana Pavarotti and Leontine Preacher and Josh Groban and Josh Bell. And it still hits me. I'm sitting here with Andrew, who started at the very beginning. I'm sitting here with Ken, who started at the very beginning. And the other night I saw a child that I remember from a soap opera, One Life to Live, win the leading Oscar. And here I am, this child sitting here on Broadway, first time out the gate because I recognize from whence I came in Broadway, and it was him. And because of him I was able to meet Ken Page. And we have a picture that is now iconic, the original Deuteronomy, old Deuteronomy, Junior labeija is Gus. And a young Gus that's now iconic because we did not know. And that's important in life to say, I don't know, to be sitting here today. There's a side of me that eventually, in the question I want to give you the complete boring junior. But you see that in Gus, because that's the box that I'm in.
- [19:09]
B
Ken.
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E
Yes.
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B
As someone who lived through the original phenomenon, I mean, when this show opened originally, it was touching people in its own way. And then you got to experience a JEL cabal as an audience member. What is it like sort of merging those worlds together for you?
- [19:26]
E
When Cats first came out, I was just arrived in New York very confident, and I listened to the show, and I thought, I'm gonna do that show. I did it for a year, and it was amazing. And I did three Andrew Lloyd Webber shows. They brought it back in 2016.
- [19:43]
B
Right.
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E
And I went to see it, and I was so disappointed because they didn't do anything to it. It was a museum piece. And when you bring a show back that is as iconic as this is, you have to do something with it. So when they said they were bringing Cats back again, I crossed my arms and I was like, what are they going to do with cats?
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C
Oh, my God.
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E
And I literally said, does everything have to be so gay? And then I went and saw it in the theater, and I thought, yes, yes, it does. And I cried like a baby for many reasons. The first reason was it was the first thing that brought me back downtown. I lived downtown across the street from the World Trade center when 911 happened and was blown from my apartment. I hadn't been downtown since Katz.
- [20:36]
B
This theater literally is across from the
- [20:38]
E
footprint of the tower where I looked out of my window every day on the 24th floor in South Gateway Plaza. So that was one thing. The other thing was they made a story where one didn't exist. They created these characters that were. We were all these characters as well, but we didn't have these relationships that we all that are created now. I was a judge twice, and then I came back and brought friends. The third time that I saw it, I think I saw a closing night. Every single time, I was just in the audience, like, crying my eyes out, going, this is amazing what you guys did with Cats. I never for a second thought I would be doing it. Then I got a text one morning saying, Katz is going to Broadway. I was in California, where I was, you know, settling in.
- [21:29]
B
Yeah.
- [21:31]
E
And I thought, oh, oh, let me write Andrew Lloyd Weber, because I have his email. And let me write to Bill Rauch, because my husband had his email. And I just started. I didn't get out of bed. I got that text, and I just started writing letters. It's like, tell me if you know, tell me to, you know, blank off if this is out of the question. I know I'm 65 years old and I've been around the sun this many times, but I think I could do the show. And then a day or two later, I got a letter back from Bill Rauch and Zaylin, and I thought, they're gonna. They're asking me for material. So I sent the material of me performing because I'm still performing as a jazz singer and cabaret artist. And they said, come in for an audition. And I thought, if I go in live, they're going to hire me. That's my thing in live audition. So, lo and behold, I manifested myself back into Cats and just. I've been on cloud nine ever since. I think it's the most beautiful show ever. I've loved the music forever, and just when I saw it, that they took the libretto and the music and kept it the same, but infused a story in it, I just think it's brilliant.
- [22:52]
B
And, Andre, I think about all the shows I've seen you in over the years, many times. You were the only black actor in the company, and now you're going to the Broadhurst Theater every night with this beautiful company of black and queer and so much, so much representation there. What a beautiful journey for you.
- [23:10]
C
Yes, absolutely. One of my mantras is win destiny. Destiny knocks open the door. I come from a large family. I have 10 siblings, and I was always considered the crazy one, because whenever I would speak about what I wanted to do with my life, I would say things like, I'm going to be a Broadway star. And they would say, oh, but I always wanted to be a North Star for people of color, because we have been told for so long that we don't deserve, that we can't achieve. And even when we do achieve, we have to work twice as hard for half as much. Even when I had the opportunity to create the role of the Wiz in 1975, Broadway was still an inhospitable terrain for not only black audiences, but for black actors. And now I'm in the history books studied by people who are. Who want to be dancers, who want to be actors. Well, one young man said to me, if you had been there, you would have seen a black man blush. He followed me into the role of Hermes in the British version of Hadestown. And when he was interviewed and asked, how do you feel about assuming this role? He responded, andre de Shields is our Beyonce. He says, so many young, colored, queer boys who have dreamed but never thought that their dreams would come true and now have someone to look at and say, it is possible.
- [25:09]
B
Do you think about the, you know, the young black, queer kids that come into the Broadhurst Theater and just. Or don't know they're queer kids, you know, sitting there and experiencing this and the kind of impact.
- [25:20]
D
Do you think about that at all
- [25:21]
B
or you're just doing the.
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C
I think about it.
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D
Yeah.
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E
I think about it every day.
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C
And they do know they're queer.
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B
Sure.
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C
They just don't know where they belong until they come to the theater and see themselves. And it is. It is a revelation when you finally understand, oh, my God, I'm not the only one. There are others like me. There is a place for me in the world, and that changes your entire future.
- [25:56]
E
I discovered it when I was in high school when my jazz dance teacher bought the Wiz to school and Ain't Misbehavin'. People discovered it for me when I was in Smokey Joe's Cafe. I still get people saying, oh, my God, when I saw you in Smokey Joe's Cafe, I knew what I wanted to do. So it's amazing to have that history. And speaking of Gus, the theater cat, he sings about in his song, he says, I once played the rumpus cat, which. Well, in Cats on Broadway, the original company, I played Macavity, Plato and the rumpus cat. So every night he sings about that. I get this chill that, oh, my God, he's singing.
- [26:39]
D
My history, I would like to add from the ballroom perspective and to bring it front and Center. Now, in 2026, I was in my dressing room and I was listening to Josh Grobain's gym cd and a particular tune came up and encapsulated exactly what I'm experiencing now. And for the youth. Before you can fly, you must fall. You do not have to go through a perceived door. I. I did not go through a perceived door. However, I am known in the ballroom culture as Junior labeija, the shady and fierce and opulent. O P U L E N C E. But in my ancestral from my father and my Cherokee and black Sioux Indian heritage, I am a PhD dropout from social work and mental health. I was not going to be considered a diva to the dumb because they would not accept me. And I understood why they wouldn't accept me. Junior labeija, who's shady? If I'm telling you about your shoes and your face and your back, you're going to get my personal history to ruin me. And the flip side is, before I take a look at me Internally, I point all my fingers at you. So there have been red lines through my career. Lies and did not. I call it alternates. That's why I so brilliant that he won the Oscar for playing alternates. We all have them. I get up every day and I look around the room and go, which one are you going to be today? So which one are you going to dress up? It's the same thing with ballroom. It's the same thing at Broadway. It's the beauty of I'm sitting there waiting for my performance because there's two acts on top of the second act. And women with their husbands and boyfriends from around the world would stop me in the hallway because I'm going to be positioned and they go, you're exquisite, darling.
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E
Oh, I love it.
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D
Oh, it's really. Oh, I had no idea. Because I'm presenting femininity as an art form. I'm presenting the patriarchy as a reality. He is who I love. He is who I adore. When he says his opening line, my legs may be tartery, but, oh, in that moment, I decide I don't want to go to the heavy side layer. I want to stay old and be with him. And I'm going to end with this. You know where that idea came from? Because I read a lot extensively because I want to finish my PhD the feminization of poverty, once this is over, now that I have the money. When you hear about the Titanic, you always hear about Rose and the Irish immigrant who stayed in the water and froze. So she. He went down and she stayed up. But the true story is the owner of Macy's and his wife was on the Titanic and he had proceeded to put her on the lifeboat and he was going to stay and she decided to get into bed with her husband and allow the freezing waters to consume them. That is life affirming. That is the true essence of Til death do us part. And that's what I grasped through this re visioning of this play.
- [30:38]
C
Give me your hand. Till death do us part. Yes,
- [30:45]
A
that's gonna do it. For this latest episode of the Broadway show Uncut. But there is still plenty more to come. Until next time, I'm Tamsen Fadal.