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- [00:05]
Tamsen Fadal
Welcome to the Broadway show Uncut. I'm Tamsen Fadal. He just won a Tony in 2024 for his performance in Merrily We Roll Along. Now Jonathan Groff is back on Broadway in Just In Time. It's an immersive new musical about the life and tunes of the legendary Bobby Darin. We know he already had the voice, but taking on the role means Jonathan Groff had to learn how to really dance. We're going to hear from the choreographer of Just In Time coming up in just a few. But first, Paul and Tork sat down with Jonathan Groff in New York City's historic Brill Building in the former corner office of Bobby Darin.
- [00:46]
Paul
So, Jonathan, here we are. We're on the ninth floor of the Brill Building in this beautiful corner office. This is actually the office of John Gore, who is the chairman and CEO of John Gore Organization and owner of Broadway.com and the Broadway show. This is his office. Beautiful office. This was once the office of Bobby Darin.
- [01:05]
Jonathan Groff
Whoa.
- [01:07]
Paul
According to my sources, maybe 1963.
- [01:11]
Jonathan Groff
Okay. That would sense.
- [01:11]
Paul
Around that period of time, I think he started TM Music. Like a music company.
- [01:16]
Jonathan Groff
Yes.
- [01:16]
Paul
And he probably wanted. I think he was here earlier, you know, and the Brill Building was filled with offices that people, like I said, selling songs, but this is where. And I also looked. That's the year he got an Oscar nomination.
- [01:27]
Jonathan Groff
Wow.
- [01:27]
Paul
Right. So it was probably like a real height of his career moment, like, overlooking Times Square.
- [01:31]
Jonathan Groff
He's with Sandra Dee at that time.
- [01:33]
Paul
Yeah. I'm sure she was in here.
- [01:35]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [01:35]
Paul
The kid might have been in here, dad.
- [01:38]
Jonathan Groff
We'll have to ask Dodd next time we see him. If he was ever in the show.
- [01:41]
Paul
He'D be like, I don't know. I was a toddler.
- [01:43]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [01:45]
Paul
So it's interesting that you get so cool, Paul.
- [01:49]
Jonathan Groff
Thank you.
- [01:49]
Paul
Of course. And we're just, you know, a block from Circle and Square Theater.
- [01:52]
Jonathan Groff
Wow.
- [01:53]
Paul
Where you're playing Bobby Darin every night. This is a real New Yorker, this guy. Bobby Darin. What is it like to. And I know you played King George. You played real people, but maybe this is a slightly more serious dig into his real story. What's it like walking the, you know, the steps of a man like that?
- [02:12]
Jonathan Groff
I know. It's so. It's interesting because Bobby Darin was this playboy crooner.
- [02:18]
Paul
Yeah.
- [02:18]
Jonathan Groff
I'm, you know, from Amish country, Pennsylvania. Like, in some ways, we couldn't be more opposite. And yet from seven years ago, when I started singing his music at the 92nd Street Y in this thing. I felt this kind of primal connection to him as a performer from watching the clips of him and then reading, actually, Dodd Darin's book called Dream Lovers, becoming fascinated and obsessed by his story. And then when we were performing his material at the Y, feeling this, like, electric current of the live articulation of his music for the audience. It was so thrilling and so exciting. And I think that what I connect to him most is this, like, kind of passion and love for the audience and the need to perform. I really. I think I really relate to that deep, primal urge. So that's, like, my point of connection to him. And then his music, like, I. I am fascinated. I mean, he. He, like, came onto the scene with Splish Splash, which is kind of like a late 50s pop tune, and then he took a left turn and went kind of like Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis were, like, the decade before him.
- [03:41]
Paul
Yeah.
- [03:42]
Jonathan Groff
So after getting that pop hit, he. He then went into standards with his album that's.
- [03:46]
Paul
But then many left turns. His career went down so many paths.
- [03:49]
Jonathan Groff
Yes. And then it was like. I mean, by the time it was the late 60s, early 70s, he was into the whole, like, folk scene. And so I also really connected with his ambition of pushing himself into different genres and different styles and finding a connection to all of those different places musically. So I also became obsessed when we were doing the thing at the Y of like, oh, my God, this type of music and this type of music and this type of music. He really. He really did it all.
- [04:19]
Paul
His life story is, wow. I mean, when you. When you really. He died so young. 37.
- [04:26]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [04:27]
Paul
Kind of sick most of his life.
- [04:29]
Jonathan Groff
Yes.
- [04:29]
Shannon Lewis
Right.
- [04:30]
Paul
He was sick from. From childhood on.
- [04:32]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [04:33]
Paul
Found out a lot of things about his. His upbringing and his family. It's. It's very easy to look at the story in kind of sad terms. Right. And I don't know if that's what we're getting in your Broadway musical. You know what I mean? What is it like? Sort of. And I know you're doing it in a nightclub setting, and you're sort of inviting people to the party and conveying this atmosphere, this connection with audiences. You talk about, what is it like digging into the story and how do you look at his story?
- [05:02]
Jonathan Groff
Okay. So when we start the show at Circle in the Square, people are coming into a kind of immersive nightclub environment. When we start the show, I'm beginning as myself in 2025 with this audience right now in this theater that, as we were Developing the show, that felt like kind of the most essential way to start the piece. Because of his kind of superpower of being in the present moment. I think part of his ability as a performer to be so extremely present was because of kind of the most essential piece of his life, which is he was born with a weak heart. When he was eight years old, he got rheumatic fever, had several bouts with that, and then overheard the doctor tell his mom he wouldn't make it past the age of 16. So, like you said, he made it to 37. But from 16 to 37, in his mind and in his heart, he was living on borrowed time. And so he had this ambition to make it as fast as he possibly could and to do as much as he possibly could, but before the clock ran out. And it was constantly at the front of his brain and then. And so he's doing all these different styles of music. I don't wanna spoil the, like, family revelation for people that don't know his story, that wanna come see the show, but, you know, had essentially a kind of nervous breakdown in the middle of his 30s and got rid of everything in his life and got a trailer and moved to Big Sur and had a kind of truly, like, spiritual awakening. And we. We managed to cover those. He was also famous. Marriage to Sandra Dee, famous relationship with Connie Francis. There's like, so many. There's, like, almost like too much to even fit into one evening. There's so much happening in his life story. But we. We try to address all of the essential. All the essential beats. And we also have this live band on stage, so it feels kind of like the Copacabana, sort of essential purpose for having the band. There is, you feel, the thrust of his life expressed through his musical journey. So the genres, from, like, the, like, kind of pop music to the standards to the folk music, you really. You really get the breadth of who he was as a person, as. And as an artist, even just from listening to the music alone. That arc and that story are there.
- [07:36]
Paul
I love this music and I love crooning. And I'm so excited you're crooning. I also love that, you know, it was a period of time where a lot of Broadway songs crossed over, right?
- [07:45]
Shannon Lewis
Yeah.
- [07:45]
Paul
Like, Mac the Knife won record of the year and it won him best. He was the Chapel Rowan, best new artist of that year. Right. Bobby Darin was the chapel roan of 1961 or whatever.
- [07:55]
Jonathan Groff
1959. Yeah.
- [07:56]
Paul
1959. 1959.
- [07:57]
Jonathan Groff
Chapel roan of that year. Yeah, totally.
- [08:00]
Paul
And Also, like, Just In Time is from Bells Are Ringing, one of my favorite musicals. Artificial Flowers, a little known tenderloin song.
- [08:08]
Jonathan Groff
Tenderloin, yes.
- [08:10]
Paul
Yeah.
- [08:10]
Jonathan Groff
We really tried to find a place for Artificial Flowers in the show, but we couldn't find a song for it. I know.
- [08:15]
Paul
Still have time.
- [08:16]
Jonathan Groff
Maybe on, like, it's a deleted deep cut or something, but that song is so incredible. But yet even what he did with Mack the Knife is like, oh, my God. That is actually such a great kind of perfect encapsulation of who he was as an artist. Taking that song from Threepenny Opera and jazzing it up and the kind of, like, relentless key changes and the way that he swung that song and the kind of, like, primal passion that he put into performing. There's this clip of him doing Mack the Knife on the Ed Sullivan show that I'm obsessed with, that I was watching with Shannon the choreographer, as we're, like, figuring how to articulate the movement in the show. And he's just like. He's an animal.
- [08:55]
Paul
Yeah, that's what they say. Like a nightclub animal.
- [08:57]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Paul
I love picturing you late at night on your YouTube, on your laptop, just, like, studying. That's the reality.
- [09:04]
Jonathan Groff
Like, when we did the thing at the Y, this is what started my, like, deep obsession. I said that, like, I'm so grateful for YouTube. Started watching clips of him, and it's. It's a. It's a hole that I just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. We were watching clips of him on Hullabaloo, like, dancing, because I. I'm. I'm dancing more in this show than I ever have before. And it's so fun and. And trying to, like, take his different physical gestures and how he was performing. It's. It's. There's. There's so much there as well in his story. Yes. But even in. And in his musicality and even, like, in his body, and you can even see, like, he was always also protecting this area because of this weak heart. There's so much going on physically for him that's been exciting just to chew into.
- [09:52]
Paul
I mean, later in life, he literally had an oxygen tank off stage.
- [09:56]
Jonathan Groff
I mean, going to the wings.
- [09:59]
Paul
So I want to ask you something, and we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to.
- [10:02]
Jonathan Groff
I'm an open book. Paul.
- [10:04]
Paul
I love that about you.
- [10:05]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [10:06]
Paul
Obviously, aging is a. You know, we're talking about Bobby Darin, who had a limited life. You already talked about living in the moment and living every moment of his Life and his early death. I wanted to ask you about Gavin Creel.
- [10:20]
Jonathan Groff
Okay.
- [10:21]
Paul
Who I know we both had relationship with friendship, and you had a very beautiful relationship with Gavin. And I know that, you know, he helped you come out of the closet.
- [10:32]
Jonathan Groff
Right.
- [10:32]
Paul
I mean, helped you with that. With that journey. And I think that when you. When we think about Gavin, I like to think that Gavin lived such a full life.
- [10:40]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [10:41]
Paul
You know, when you really look at what his spirit and how he lived life, it really felt like he was living in those moments. I'm wondering if what was it like losing Gavin and what is it like telling this story and is there any sort of connection there for you?
- [10:57]
Jonathan Groff
Oh, my God. Well, like, he. Yeah, he changed my life. We were dating. Like, I come out of the closet personally, but I had not. There'd been no occasion for me to announce it publicly. And we were dating, and he was, like, so out. He was doing hair at the time, and he had organized the city through Broadway Impact, the organization that he co founded. And I remember, like, we were on the buses, and we were like. Like, he was painting the, like, the peace sign on my cheek with the cast of hair, and we were all down there. And I really remember the moment of looking over at him with literally a bullhorn and feeling like, okay, am I gonna. Like, it was such an essential moment. It was because of who he was and how out and how vocal and how brave and, like, fearless and externalized he was. And it was also. And, like. And wanting to kind of try to be as brave as he was, but it was also just, like, the love that I was feeling for him and feeling like this even, like, performing as a need. So the need that I feel when I perform, like, the joy that I have of doing that feeling, love like, that for the first time, like, mind blowingly, meant more to me than even. Cause at that time, it was 2009, coming out of the closet, it was like sort of an unspoken or maybe sometimes spoken thing that you were sacrificing something in your career if you were gonna come out publicly. And I remember looking at him and feeling like I would rather feel this feeling than ever be on a TV show or do a movie. Like, this is so much more meaningful to me, and so I. I owe him that. And I'm so grateful that we got to talk about that many times, even after we had, like, broken up and. And, yeah, it's like, it's such an unbelievable loss. That memorial was so insanely beautiful. And Sarah. Sarah said in her speech that Like Cerbereales. Sara Bareilles. Yeah. That it'll never be enough. She was like, anything we try to do today, any way that we try to honor Gavin, it will never. It will never be enough. Because he was just like infinity in his light.
- [13:48]
Paul
Infinity. Yeah. Inspiring life. And how do you. So are you able to. Are you one of those people that's able to live in the moment and live fully and embrace. And you talk about the Bobby Darin story. It all sort of ties together, right? Yeah.
- [14:02]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah.
- [14:02]
Paul
Are you able to.
- [14:03]
Jonathan Groff
Well, Bobby. It's funny because, like, he. It's like you said, it could be dark, that piece of his story. It could be a kind of tragic dark thing of the oxygen tank and the death always looming. But one of the things that. As I've been reading and observing him in clips, this sort of theory I've developed in thinking about him so much, is he was so present and part of. As a performer and part of me wonders if that constant negotiation of his health. Like sometimes you see him on stage and he's doing this and it's to get the blood flowing to his hands and that. And like you said, the oxygen tank going back there and that. That level of presence that it takes to stay alive, to keep the blood moving through your hands, to be able to deliver the music for audience in a way smaller, like, less intense way. When you're doing eight shows a week and you're sick sometimes, like when we're sick and we're performing, they are the most, for me, educational performances, because I have to become super aware of how I'm singing and what I'm able to do. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm really. When I get healthy again, realizing I'm pushing so hard there. I don't have to push. It's like such a education when you perform and you're sick of, like, where. Where your energy is put when you're healthy and the extraneous energy that you have that you can't. That you can't just do with great ease when you're. When you're sick. That's like a way smaller version of dying and your heart being really weak. But I think Bobby lived a kind of enormous version of that at every moment of his life.
- [15:56]
Paul
But we're really telling a story of joy and.
- [15:58]
Shannon Lewis
Right.
- [15:59]
Paul
It's a concert and it's a celebration.
- [16:00]
Jonathan Groff
Yeah. Because it's like that. That I think it's. I find it. Exactly. I find it inspiring. This. This ticking clock, this. We're all here. We're all here on borrowed time. And, like, in a way, this. This body is. Is ours while we're here, and then it's not when we're gone. And so this. What I hope and what I. What I feel when I. And inside of the material is this, like, deep, profound passion for life and this deep need to, like, live it to the fullest. And it's even part of the dance classes with Shannon that I'm taking to get ready even to wake up the cells of my body that are just sitting there dormant because I haven't been dancing like this, even to feel. I'm taking drum lessons, I'm taking piano lessons. And to feel those, like, pathways in the brain grow and to feel that kind of expansion is so thrilling and makes me feel alive and makes me feel grateful to be alive.
- [17:13]
Tamsen Fadal
And now here's the choreographer of Just in Time, Shannon Lewis.
- [17:20]
Paul
Shannon, I've been a fan of your forever just from watching you in the audience on Broadway. You're an incredible dancer performer. But this is like a big moment for you choreographing an entire Broadway musical. How are you feeling?
- [17:32]
Shannon Lewis
Amazing. I feel so honored and lucky to have it be this show too, because the music of Bobby Darin lends itself to dance so perfectly and beautifully. Obviously, we're expanding it and evolving it for ourselves in terms of dance arrangements and things, but you hear Splish Splash, you hear Mack the Knife, you hear beyond the Sea and people want to dance. So how lucky am I to have that and to have Jonathan Groff and to have Alex Timbers as the director. I mean, it's incredible.
- [17:59]
Paul
Alex is a visionary director. Tony winning visionary director. One of my favorites.
- [18:03]
Shannon Lewis
Yes.
- [18:04]
Paul
What was it like getting the gig and starting to work with him and sort of figuring out what this would be?
- [18:09]
Shannon Lewis
It was amazing to get the gig. I met with him once or twice and I met with Jonathan. I'd never met Alex Timbers before. I knew his work and I think he knew a little bit of mine too, more as a choreographer, actually. He knew we kind of dovetailed together because I choreographed for the SNL film units and he is heavily into the comedy world, so we have mutual friends in common. And he knew about me that way. And I got the gig and it was amazing. And it all happened very, very quickly. The show kind of went on a fast track. When we got the Circle in the Square Theater, we had Jonathan Groff's time. Alex is a generous collaborator. He's a visionary, like you said, but he's A generous collaborator, and he really trusts the people that he works with. And so we were really. We kind of dove into the deep end together in the first dance workshop that we did, and it was instant. Like, we really clicked together. And he's such a visual person that I think working with a choreographer like me too, like, we really kind of. We just kind of hit the ground running. So this is very exciting.
- [19:10]
Paul
You have done a lot as a choreographer, but you are very good at that, at this. Right?
- [19:15]
Shannon Lewis
Like the performing thing.
- [19:16]
Paul
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned hullabaloo, right. The 60s show, and that was sort of the inspiration, especially for the number we just watched.
- [19:23]
Shannon Lewis
That's right, yeah. Hullabaloo. When I did a lot of my research, obviously, I landed on that, and that's been a favorite of mine anyway. Don McKechnie started on that show. Michael Bennett, so many dancers of that generation. Suzanne Charney, who's a lead frugal dancer in the Sweet Charity movie.
- [19:37]
Paul
Yeah, like, all the. It seems like that was a place where a lot of Broadway dancers could get. Film could get.
- [19:42]
Shannon Lewis
And they were known. They were known. They said their name on camera and they were dancers. They were dancers that were known nationally, which never really happens. I mean, now we have sort of. It kind of comes and goes in waves now nowadays. But, yeah, Hullabaloo was like a treasure trove of performances of Bobby Darin and all of the stars of the day. They all did those. They danced, they danced, they sang, they acted. They were triple threats. And Bobby Darin was like a quadruple quintuple threat. He played the drums and did all kinds of things. So, yeah, Hullabaloo a huge part of the inspiration. And I took a lot of, like, kind of energy from that. Not necessarily steps, obviously. It was my own steps that I created. But the energy of it, the dynamic electricity, especially in that time, you think there was no social media, there was no Internet. So you're turning on your TV and you're seeing these dancers, like, leap out of your screen. And that's, I think, what I'm trying to do with this show as well.
- [20:36]
Paul
Having said that, Bobby Darin didn't dance like this. You're ramping it up. I mean, he didn't do production numbers like this.
- [20:41]
Shannon Lewis
You know, it's funny, there's a couple that I found that he kind of did. Now, he's a really quirky guy. He moved in a really quirky way. He was his own thing. But everyone talked about his electricity on stage. And when you have Someone like Jonathan Groff, who is electricity personified, really, as a performer. He. We really thought to theatricalize it, to bring it to the live stage that way and not just view it on a YouTube video to actually feel the electricity. We wanted to evolve it and amp it up even more. So the number that you just saw is that I think in the best way, I think the style stays. It's grounded in research and style, but it's through my own filter.
- [21:21]
Paul
So talk about dance class with Jonathan Groff. I mean, it sounds like you really put him through the Broadway. Seems like he said he wanted to be a Broadway dancer at some point, but you really put him through the ringer to get him here.
- [21:30]
Shannon Lewis
I mean, he really did the thing. He did the thing. He did it right. He said, how would you do this? And I was like, do you really want to know? And he was like, I do. I mean, he went deep and we really did it. He knows my entire warmup. I teach a really popular professional class in the city. And he learned my entire warm up. And then came and did. I taught some public professional classes where I had like 80 to 100 of the best dancers in New York. And he was right in the front row dancing along with them after our time. So we really. I'm so proud of him. I'm also in awe of him. Like, I don't. You know, you can want to be good, but you don't always get to be good. And he's just great at everything. And he really did the work. He really did the work. He really cares. He's really musical. He can make the shapes with his body. He has, like, the facility to be able to do that. So it was really, really thrilling for me to get to work with him like that.
- [22:20]
Paul
It's really nice to realize he's incredible on film and tv, but he's such a Broadway person.
- [22:25]
Shannon Lewis
He's a fan. I think he would describe himself like that.
- [22:28]
Paul
I mean, he's a fan, but he's also just like. He's just one of. Of course he jumped into dance class with you.
- [22:33]
Shannon Lewis
Of course he did.
- [22:34]
Paul
He just like, that's him, right?
- [22:35]
Shannon Lewis
Yeah. And he said. I said, like, what are your hopes and dreams? And he was like, I have never really danced in a Broadway show. I've never really, really, really danced. He's like, I tap a little bit. I do like, you know, Broadway Easter bonnet things. But I was like, okay, let's really go. Let's see what you got in there. And we just kept going and going. And he kept getting better and better and better and better. And he picked up the style, and he picked up the. Like I said, the shapes and the stylized musicality that we were going for. And we're still discovering it, and we will still be discovering it. I cannot wait for audiences to see. I don't think anybody is expecting what's coming out of him to come out. I think that's what's one of the really exciting things of the show.
- [23:16]
Paul
I just want to ask you. I've admired you as a performer for many years. Thank you. And it's so thrilling for me to see you get an opportunity like this. And I know that, you know, building a career in New York City, not the easiest thing. Right? You immediately are like, here we go.
- [23:31]
Shannon Lewis
Yeah. No, I mean.
- [23:33]
Paul
And I've watched you, you know, develop from a dancer to a choreographer, and the incredible work you've done on Saturday Night Live and then getting this opportunity. What advice do you have? I'm sure you have so many friends and peers, and you watch them maybe struggle to have an opportunity like this. What kind of advice do you give people to have longevity in this business?
- [23:51]
Shannon Lewis
Well, it's such a good question. I don't think anyone's path is the same. I think everyone. There's many, many paths to success, and everyone's path will look different and end in a different place because everyone wants different things. But I think that. I think that you can never give up, and I think you have to make your own opportunities. In the pandemic, I sat on my couch like everybody else for six months and thought, well, this is the end for me. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And then I was like, nope, I'm gonna do a ballet barre with Tyler Peck every day, and I'm gonna get back up. And then people said, there's this thing called zoom. You should teach class. And I was like, really? Okay. Okay, okay, yes, I'll teach class. Great. I was uninspired. It wasn't that I didn't want to. I just didn't know, like, all of us, what was I supposed to be doing? And from that, I was like, hey, I have this choreography career that people don't really know about. I've been doing a lot of stuff. And I started filming my own choreography when we could get in rooms together. And I started finding this younger generation of dancers that were so, so hungry because they weren't having opportunities like I had at that age. And they wanted the information. They were sponges for my information that I can pass on to them. And also, it was mutually beneficial because then I had these amazing dancers to do my choreography. So that started. I think that started my real stepping into this next level of choreography because I was brave enough, I think, to put it out there. It was terrifying during that time, but I was like, hey, listen, it's now or never. And, like, what's gonna happen? So I really kind of just jumped without a net and put it all out there. And the response was overwhelmingly amazing. Better than I ever expected. And so. And that's actually why I think Alex Timbers saw some of my videos. I think Saturday Night Live saw some of my videos, and I put my work out there. And so I think, you know, just make your own opportunities and figure out who you are and really ask yourself that, and then just go for it.
- [25:48]
Tamsen Fadal
And that's going to do it for this week's episode of the pod. But head over to broadway.com to grab your tickets to Just in time. Until next time, I'm Tamsen Fadal, and this is the Broadway show Uncut.