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- [00:05]
A
Hey, there.
- [00:05]
B
Welcome to this latest episode of the Broadway show Uncut. I'm Tamsen Fadal. The most nominated play at this year's Tonys is a revival of Death of a Salesman, starring Nathan Lane and Laurie Metcalfe. Nine nominations in total. Here's Paul Wontorek with more.
- [00:23]
C
It's nice to be here on the Winter Garden Theatre. I know you can fit many cats and dancing queens on here, but it's nice to have the Lomans in such a beautiful, vast home. What's it like to come to work to the Winter Garden where Barbra Streisand came to work?
- [00:38]
A
Well, I don't think of Barbra that often while doing Death of a Salesman, although I'd like to see her. Linda, I love this theater. You know, when, obviously, when they first was mentioned as a home for this production, it made me a little nervous for various reasons, and yet it has turned out to be the perfect home for this particular production. And it feels as intimate as anything I've done in the theater. And that's due to this genius over here, also the genius of our sound design.
- [01:16]
D
Yes, yes, absolutely.
- [01:18]
A
What he's done, which we can speak very quietly and be heard here, it's remarkable. And that was something I was also concerned about and also losing the intimacy of the play. And it doesn't feel that way at all.
- [01:33]
C
I think the Winter garden has, like, 600 more seats than, let's say, the Marasco where this play first premiered. What I love about having so many extra people there is when I saw the show, there was so much silence around me. People are just so, like, checked in from the minute you make your beautiful entrance. And I feel like just having more people in silence, it's just. It's like an extra power to it.
- [01:54]
D
Yeah. Such a testament to the play. I really think that I have not heard silence in the theater like that in a very, very, very long time.
- [02:03]
C
So we're about halfway through the run, the expected run here, so I feel like it's a good time to check in. How are you? Do you need anything? How's it going?
- [02:14]
A
Well, it's going extremely well. Look, we've talked about it in many interviews. It's a challenging play to do night after night after night. But because of the play itself and this company of actors, and the response has just been extraordinary. And, you know, when people come back and fall into your arms weeping, you think, we must have done something right tonight. Look, it's a dream come true, but it's even beyond what I ever imagined would happen doing this. It's just. I'm astounded by the whole thing and very grateful and proud of it and the work that everyone has done. And so. Yeah, but you have to take care of yourself. It's like anything in the theater. You have to. You get all your sleep and plenty of fluids, but it's all been worth it. All of the work.
- [03:28]
C
What specifically? Obviously, anytime you're on stage, a lot of adrenaline.
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A
Right?
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C
It's just sort of an adrenaline rush. So I think anytime you're coming down from that, and I think you have an emotional extra. You know, you're doing therapy and hugs backstage, and you're comforting the people whose heart you just broke, which is a whole extra piece to the job. Is there anything specific that you like to do to sort of get yourself back into Nathan from. From Willie?
- [03:57]
A
Well, once we exit the stage, where, yeah, we. We let go of it, it's not. I don't. I'm not carrying him with me, but. And Laurie is very much. In fact, all of us, the whole Lohman family, they're very much that way. When we're out here, we're. We're in it all the way. But, you know, honestly, as I was saying, you can't do anything else. I spend more time as Willie than I do as Nathan. It's just about taking care of yourself so you can. And staying healthy so you can be here and give it 100%. And it is about this. Look. This is a once in a lifetime thing. I'm getting to do Death of a Salesman on Broadway in this spectacular production with people I love. And. And it's. It's a. It's a gift. And. And, you know, you just. You're trying to rise to the occasion. And. And it's been. It's just. It's remarkable. And. And so I. You know, when people. When you hear that kind of silence or you hear people weeping in the dark, it's. You just. It's all been more than I could have hoped for.
- [05:22]
C
Joe, I know that you've talked previously about. You made an offhand comment 30 years ago. You used to play Willy Loman. I'm a director as Willy Loman. Someday. Actually digging into it and doing it. And now coming here and getting to watch Nathan do it whenever you're in the house. What has sort of surprised you about actually seeing Nathan in this role, in this man's shoes?
- [05:44]
D
Well, I don't think this production looks or feels like. I think we're both surprised by the final form that it took, you know, certainly 30 years ago when I said this to him, you know, I wasn't imagining this. It was just an idea, you know, I think the role is so great, but his performance, I can say this was hard won. I mean, you really, really have to grapple with it in a way that probably it's unlike anything you've ever done in your entire career.
- [06:21]
A
True.
- [06:22]
D
And it isn't like you kind of show up, we rehearse for an hour and a half, have a little break, you know, and then kind of go back. It consumes you in a way. And I think, Nathan, and certainly I know that I couldn't have done this 10 or 15 years ago. I didn't have it. I didn't have this in me. And so I think that the years of experience, all of your years in the theater, have led you to this moment. And it's so. So when I watch him, I see the culmination. I hope you do much, many more. But this is. You have earned this moment at this point in your career. And that's what I. When I watch him, I'm so proud of my friend.
- [07:15]
A
Well, thank you. Yeah. Look, it's so much about what Joe saw in the play, his take on the play and what he. Which. And this. This is. As we were saying, this is a big swing to do this. I think he was nervous. I was very nervous. I think I. To be quite honest, I was. And I didn't even realize it because I'd certainly done. I do a lot of preparation and research. I read everything ever said about it, written about it by Miller and everyone else, and had learned it and so forth. But nothing prepares you for when you stand up and you have to walk in and start to say those words. And I think I was trapped in my head, even though I understood intellectually what he was saying and where we were going to go with this, but I was trapped in my head in a more traditional production, in whatever the fantasy was going way, way, way back. And having seen it, you know, Laurie Metcalfe is lucky. She never wanted to see it because she thought, maybe someday I'll do it. Well, I saw all of them. I've seen it a lot going back to when I was 10. And I could still hear Lee J. Cobb saying some of this stuff. So I had to try to banish all of those ghosts. And yet there was something inside of me that was sort of fighting it. And it was also probably fear, the fear of everything that comes with playing this kind of an iconic role. And you're going to have to live up to the comparisons or not. And so it was very difficult for me. And I would think that I knew what I was doing and I didn't. Joe guided and pushed me towards the light, pushed me where I needed to go. And it was really in previews, I mean, because honestly, when we started previews, I was terrified. I mean, I think we were all terrified because then it's for real and there are all these people watching you and the expectation is very high. And it took a while to start to find it and start to create your own performance and not think about everybody else and all, you know, the history of the play and what it means. And I'm also. I also think I'm. Joe used to say, you can't. You can only play Willie. You can't play the audience's role as well. I tend to be very moved emotionally by this play and get caught up in it. And it's literally something they used to say to Lee J. Cobb is, you can't feel sorry for yourself. You don't have time because you're driving to the end. And in each scene you think, I'm gonna win. That's what you're after. And that's what. One of the things about this production, I think, is the speed of that. It's relentless, especially in the second act. It just doesn't let up. I mean, Tony Kushner said he found it terrifying. You know, it's terrifying. And the fact that this man keeps thinking, all right, this didn't work out, but this is going to work out. Biff had that meeting with Bill Oliver and that's going to save the day. And that, that doesn't work out. But he has that insurance policy that would give him $20,000 to leave his son. You know, it's. It, it's what a ground breaking play this was in 1949. And it's still, you know, still grabbing people by the throat. It's. It's unbelievable.
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C
You're both fantastic actors. So obviously you're a great director and an actor. We've seen you do both. How do you support Nathan when he's like, finding the role?
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A
Right.
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C
And I know you've known for years, Forget the comment 30 years ago, but just for many years I've known you were going to work on this production together. So I'm assuming there have been conversations over those years. Do you feel like as a director there's a process to supporting someone like Nathan in a process like this, it's
- [11:57]
D
both easier and more difficult because we are not only collaborators as director and actor, but we're also friends. And there were things that I wanted my friend, who was the actor to do. And I said, I want you to try to do something that you've never done before. I will be there for you. I will catch you. You know me, I will not let you fail, but I'm going to push you. And, you know, I think we were both, well, all of us on some level, were very nervous because, you know, we live in a world now where you hear chatter and you hear why and why the Winter Garden and why this person and why that person? And it's really to block that out. And so one of the things that I kept coming back to again and again, I would say we must banish every other production that's come before us. We must look at this as if it is a new script that's handed to us. How would we do it? What is this scene about if we know nothing about it? And so I just kept trying to. To push it in that direction. And I think tension is the wrong word, but where you were coming from and where I was coming from created something really, really interesting. And it was hard earned. And what you see on the stage, what is a reflection of everybody's contribution to it, because everybody said, like, ok, going to look at this, we're going to look at this through a different lens. Not just different for the sake of being different, but really look at it and interrogate in it, ask hard questions of it. And, you know, and this is the result of doing that. But we only could have done it relying on one another. If one person was kind of skittish or, you know, wasn't, you know, on board for it, it would have gone haywire.
- [14:16]
C
Is it, Is it still. How is it sort of day to day with you? I know you've talked about sort of. You do the show moment by moment, right? You just. The only way you can. And probably because you're talking about how emotionally devastating is, all you can do is sort of like be in Willie, not think of the bigger picture, right? You're just sort of living in it moment by moment. What's it like night after night, doing a show like this? Is it still growing for you? Are you still.
- [14:41]
A
It does. I mean, I, I'm always. I, I'm. I. I hear. I can hear. I can hear Joe in my. I have many voices in my head. There's Ben and there's Joe and Arthur Miller. But, you know, just. I don't know. It's. It's just. It's a play that you can't hide. In this play, you. You have to. You gotta spill your guts. And. And it's. But, yeah, it all. It just starts with coming home. And. And, you know, Joe used to say, we have a long way to go. I always had trouble with this opening scene. We have a long way to go. And as I tell my Elphabiz, don't blow it all on the wizard. And I, you gotta get to Defying Gravity, and you're trying to make things okay for her. All of this horrible stuff is going on underneath, but you're gonna try to make it okay for her, and she's trying to make you feel okay, even though, hey, something seems a little off in this house. And. Which was, I think, a great, great piece of direction. And. But I don't. It's. It's. Because his backstory is so. It's got so much going on in his head. It was. It was. It's hard to find that right balance and modulation. And it's been, you know, and it's been a. It's been a. It's evolved and it's still a learning process about. With different audiences and. But look, I get to look into Laurie Metcalfe's eyes and you think everything will be all right. And Christopher Abbott and Ben Hollers, who are just extraordinary. And that. That's what carries you. That. And, you know the brilliant words of Arthur Miller. Yeah, it's this, you know, this concept which is just like it. As it's happening in Willie's head, he's living in the past and the present. And it's sort of the concept of the. Of the production in a way that it's sort of.
- [17:12]
C
Yeah.
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A
Oh, it looks. It could be period. But it's. It's. It's. Right now quite sure where you are, you're not. It's. It keeps you off balance. And so I. But, you know, I'm going to. In preparation for this, I went back and did a little research. And so I just. I'm going to say this. You know, this will all be cut. But Miller was talking about that selling was in the air all through his childhood. His father was a salesman and then the eventual owner of the Miltex coat and suit company. And they used. They lived very well in Manhattan, had a little country cottage, had a limousine with a chauffeur. And then he lost it all in the crash. And that's when they moved to Brooklyn. And then at 17, he wrote this sort of autobiographical piece called In Memoriam about a salesman at Miltex who he had helped take samples uptown. And afterwards, the salesman asked him if he could borrow subway fare. And what he didn't include was that the very next day, this guy threw himself in front of the L train. Wow. And then in 37, he started to write about this family, which would eventually become the Lomans. And. But really, the big, I think, impetus was he had this uncle, Uncle Manny Newman. He was a salesman. He also, This. I didn't know he committed suicide after this meeting they had. So Manny had two children, Abby and Buddy. And when he would visit them, he was always in this sort of imaginary competition with. With Manny's kids. And. And basically there was the insinuation that he would never amount to anything. And so they met. This happened at the Colonial Theater in Boston where the play was, where. Where all my sons was trying out. And he hadn't seen Manny, uncle Manny for 15 years. And he saw him coming out of the matinee, and he had tears in his eyes. And he went up to Arthur Miller and said, buddy's doing very well. Said nothing about the play or the performance. And he went. He's picking up a conversation from 15 years ago. He's living in two places at once. He's in the past and the present, and it's all right now. And he thought, isn't that wonderful? He had always had this sort of empathy for this guy because he said he felt he carried his suffering on his skin and he knew that he would never make it. But also said he described him as cute and ugly, a bantam with a lisp. If only I'd known that, I could have worked that in. A bantam with a lisp, but very charming. But he was a little guy, and that's what he originally envisioned Willie as, a little guy. But that drove him to say, I don't want to do something naturalistic. And this whole notion of a man living in the past and the present at the same time, and that's what led to this.
- [20:45]
C
That's what led to this beautiful play. And I'm sure you talk about you're able to leave Willie, you know, at the stage door when you leave. But when you're working on something that's so rich, with so much history, with so much, and you, you know, immerse yourself in it, it sort of just makes, I'm sure, the whole experience just sort of heightened. Right? I mean, you're working with sort of beautiful real life material here.
- [21:09]
A
Oh, the whole experience and the fact that it's still relevant, that it's still people, you know, they see themselves in this and in this situation, and it's ultimately, it is this. As Miller said, it's a love story between a father and son and between them and in a crazy way, between them and America. And it still holds up.
- [21:34]
C
Well, I can't wait to see what you do going from here. Have you looked at Nathan at any point during this process and said, I'm going to direct you as blank someday?
- [21:43]
D
No, you know, I was presumptuous and I said I couldn't have done it 15 years ago. And I don't think you could have. But do you think you could have done it 15 years ago?
- [21:51]
A
Well, not like. I don't. I know. No, I don't think so. I mean, I had to go through. Yeah, I think, you know, things happen when they're supposed to happen. And this was when this was supposed to happen. I never would have. I would, you know, I would have hoped to have done it younger than 70. But, you know, it. It turns out, like this theater, it was the right time to do this. Absolutely. And I'm so incredibly grateful to everybody. Thank you.
- [22:26]
C
Yeah.
- [22:26]
A
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- [22:27]
C
Thank you both for talking to me.
- [22:29]
A
Thanks.
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C
Hop on at the Tonys.
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D
Thank you.
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A
Oh, sure. It's always fun at the Tonys. Pink is hosting. Have you heard?
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C
It's gonna be flying. You're gonna fly, right?
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A
Oh, no, no, no. I don't think so. But I'm sure she' that's going to do it.
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B
For this latest episode of the Broadway show Uncut, until next time, I'm Tamsen Fadal and this is the Broadway show Uncut.