← The Broadway Show: Uncut
The Broadway Show: Uncut
Nicole Scherzinger is Ready for Her Close-up! Plus, 'The Hills of California'
00:41:40
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- [00:05]
Tamsen Fadal
It's a Broadway show, uncut. And we're back with a huge episode with two incredible interviews. Coming up, we're talking about the hills of California. We've got an awesome interview with playwright Jez Butterworth and his partner and star of the play, Laura Donnelly. But first, she's ready for her close up. It's Sunset Boulevard like you've never seen it before. It's a stripped down, radically reimagined version of. Of the musical epic starring Nicole Scherzinger. Check out Paul Wontorek's interview with Nicole.
- [00:35]
Paul Wontorek
Nicole, Broadway. It's happened. You're here. Childhood dream realized.
- [00:40]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yes, this is my childhood dream. It's crazy. A lot of people don't realize that I grew up loving the theater and musical theater and I always dreamed of coming to Broadway. It was just going to be the right time and the right show. So here we are, Sunset Boulevard.
- [00:59]
Paul Wontorek
The right time is interesting because I feel like a lot of actresses sort of get in their head, right? A goal like that. And it does come at the right time in the right circumstances. And this, like you said, I loved when you won your Olivier Award. You said, this is not. I had a lot of dream roles. This was not it. And when I heard that, I thought she probably meant Kim and Miss Saigon.
- [01:19]
Nicole Scherzinger
Because weren't you like, you were really.
- [01:20]
Paul Wontorek
Into Miss Saigon too?
- [01:21]
Nicole Scherzinger
I'd give my life for you, Hunty. Yes, that was my. One of my dream roles and you know, like Tup, Tim and the King and I and Ti Moon and Once on this island. But yeah. Never thought of Norma Desmond would be the. I feel like after now obviously knowing her story and you know, the music is in my veins, I just feel like it was written for me.
- [01:52]
Paul Wontorek
Yeah. Speaking of veins and blood, it's so nice to see you fresh faced today.
- [02:00]
Nicole Scherzinger
Not for long. I do have a show pretty soon.
- [02:04]
Paul Wontorek
I've become very used to seeing photos of you covered in blood. Yeah, it's a good look. But I love that you're doing the celebrity. People come backstage, you're posing with them in the blood. I mean, I love that.
- [02:18]
Nicole Scherzinger
Well, it's just because I. Well, I mean, the first, our first preview, I believe you were there for. I was so excited. And I'd never gone out and signed.
- [02:30]
Paul Wontorek
On the stage door.
- [02:31]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah, at the stage door. It was my first time on Broadway, so I literally left the stage and went straight out barefoot Norma. I gave it to him raw. You know, I was wanting to feel the energy. And now sometimes I do greet people afterwards in blood. But that's because I just takes too long to wash it off and get ready. So, you know, which brings me to.
- [02:53]
Paul Wontorek
My number one question. I mean, we all know the Elphaba makeup removal process. It's a very long shower. And the drain over at the Gershwin Theater is green from all the green makeup. So how does the blood. What is the.
- [03:05]
Nicole Scherzinger
My drain is red.
- [03:07]
Paul Wontorek
Okay, you have a red drain?
- [03:08]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yes. It's like, it looks like a bloody mess in my shower. And then I've got different exfoliators and weird gloves that have like red stains. I want to be like, guys, we need to clean these gloves. If someone were to walk into my shower, it looks really scary.
- [03:23]
Paul Wontorek
It's like an American Horror Story or Sunset Boulevard.
- [03:25]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yes.
- [03:27]
Paul Wontorek
I love it. But you know, I saw the production. I'm a huge fan of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I think you are too. I mean, like, a lot of the reason why I love Broadway is because of Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals, including Sunset Boulevard. I knew the show by heart. I could sing it badly from start to finish. So when I went to see it in London, I knew you were doing the role. I sat down in that theater really early in a preview. I expected to see you in a turban coming down the steps. And it was so exciting to sit there and to being able to rediscover something that you think you know so well. You know, a 30 year old musical, a 70 year old movie, and to be able to sit there, it's such a unique experience. And I think that's what everyone is really reacting to now. But you think you know every beat of what's gonna happen. And audiences are just like pin drop, silent, just edge of their seats.
- [04:17]
Nicole Scherzinger
Well, that's the beauty of our fearless leader, Jamie Lloyd, our director, the visionary who was like, no, we're stripping everything back. And obviously we have this beautiful, brilliant score which is the soundtrack of my life the past year by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Don Black and Christopher Hampton, who wrote the lyrics. But as you said, it's all stripped back, there are no distractions. So it really allows your imagination to just go to work and to create. So it's like a very reciprocal energy on that stage. And I feel so blessed that Jamie chose us particularly, you know, every single one. The show is very nuanced, you know, and there is nothing else on that stage except for us to really open ourselves up and share our real abilities, all of our abilities, and just to tell the most honest, truthful story. It's just our talents really that are up there. I mean, also the most unbelievable lighting. I've not seen the show, but I hear the lighting is exquisite. And then, obviously, we've got the cinematography, the camera work and the screens and the sound. We just have a brilliant team who's pulled it all together to create this whole new experience and bringing something really unique to Broadway and a unique way of story telling, which is just kind of stripping it all back and letting the story really, truly connecting with the story of these characters, the human story, and letting that speak for itself.
- [06:07]
Paul Wontorek
And Norma gets her close up, which I love. Norma gets her close up.
- [06:11]
Nicole Scherzinger
Not what people would expect, but she does get her close up.
- [06:16]
Paul Wontorek
So what I'm curious about. So Jamie Lloyd came to you, obviously, with this idea of this show. Was the vision all sort of explained from the very beginning. I'm curious about what it was like actually discovering it in the rehearsal room. I just wish I could have been in that room and seen how it all sort of came together, because this show ended up having a lot of revisions, right? And some period references were stripped out, and it was sort of like it was really rebuilding a new show.
- [06:44]
Nicole Scherzinger
Jamie came to me about this show over a few years ago, and he came to me with this big idea. Obviously, I heard the idea and I was like, this is your big idea, right? Like, to play this, like, deranged, faded film star. You know, I always say, honey, I'm a pussycat, doll. I'm still good under bright lights, you know? But he just was like, please, just read the story. And when I read the script, he sent me the script that night. When I read the script, it wasn't at all at what I'd remembered, only in the film, the 1950s film that I had seen. He was like, just read the script and read her story. And when I read it, I really connected with Norma. I really empathized with her, and I really understood her on so many levels. And then I listened to the music. I couldn't believe it. I'm a musical theater fan, and I didn't know the music to Sunset Boulevard. And that's when I fell madly in love with her. You know, these songs, these lyrics, I feel like they were written for me. I'm back where I was born to be I've come home at last, you know, we'll give the world new ways to dream. So I was like, okay, I think I get this. I really do. Like, I couldn't believe what I was absorbing in this material. Maybe this was my answered prayers to be able to. A lot of People just knew me for the dolls, and they didn't, you know, this. I would be able to kind of share, you know, open up and see so many different sides of me. People didn't know. Right. And so after reading the script and discovering that I fell in love with the music, we talked about it before we ever got in the room. We discussed certain parts of the story. We discussed it, you know, parallel and mirroring my life in a lot of ways. So we talked at least for at least six to eight months.
- [08:56]
Paul Wontorek
Wow.
- [08:57]
Nicole Scherzinger
Just digging in and getting really personal with it and saying, listen, what about this perspective and this. And this is my. This is my take on the story, because I can only bring. You want me to bring myself to it? I can only bring my authentic self by telling my story. And so Jamie was so receptive and open and just really encouraged myself and all of the other actors to bring ourselves to the story. And so then by the time we got into rehearsals, he. Jamie creates a really sacred space for us. It's like, I don't know how to explain it. And it felt really safe. And we just got to unfold the story of these characters. It wasn't anything presentational. From day two, we had mics on.
- [09:51]
Paul Wontorek
Oh, wow.
- [09:52]
Nicole Scherzinger
So we got to just get the words out and bring these story, bring these characters to life in the moment, you know, and it just. It just all unfolded organically and naturally.
- [10:09]
Paul Wontorek
What is it like to just have one costume? And, I mean, I feel like you talk about sort of being able to focus on the meat of the part once you take off, sort of the trappings of all of the.
- [10:21]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah, that.
- [10:22]
Paul Wontorek
That's the whole point of it. I mean, the original production was so lavish. The set was enormous, and it lifted up in the air, and everybody was like, how is that happening? This mansion lifted up. And the costumes. I mean, yes. The nonstop costume changes. And so to be able to just focus on the story and the music and the words.
- [10:39]
Nicole Scherzinger
Well, needless to say, I was hardly thrilled when I found out I wasn't going to have any costumes, because I was like, listen, I want leopard print everywhere. I want a leopard print turban, a leopard print caftan. How many different leopard print versions can we have of this? And they were like, no, you're wearing a black slip. And I was like, can we throw in a white slip? Can we throw in a red slip? Like, how many slips are we talking? And he was like, one. And I was like, what? And then I was like, well, what cute shoes am I stepping into? And he was like, you're barefoot. And I was like, you're just taking me out of all my comfort zones. You know, but like you said, it's great because it's so minimal. It's so bare and stripped back, and you get to the real meat and the heart of the stories of these people. And. Yeah. And when you really connect and you get rid of all the noise, then that's when people. The story really comes to life. The imagination, like reading a book, you know, in these people's minds and in these hearts, and that takes over.
- [11:48]
Paul Wontorek
And it is about a silent film star, but it's about so much more. I mean, it's about.
- [11:53]
Nicole Scherzinger
Oh, yes.
- [11:54]
Paul Wontorek
I mean, that's the. You know, when I was watching you do it for the first time, I thought this could be a reality star in modern day. Like. And even. Especially because you add a lot of great contemporary humor to it. And, you know, because Norma Desmond is also sort of this campy character. Right. I mean, it's very over the top. I mean, drag queens have played Norma Desmond for many years, but when you're treating her as a woman in a circumstance, it just adds so much more possibility to relate to it.
- [12:29]
Nicole Scherzinger
Absolutely. The story is so relevant for all the characters and for the entire story of Sunset Boulevard. It's so relevant today. And it's not just about, like you said, a faded silent film star. It's not even just about age. It's about the human story and the human journey and the battle that so many of us go through. You know, whether that is feeling, having to deal with change, having to deal with time. Where does the time go? Not only just age, but having to deal with loneliness, abandonment, wanting to be seen, wanting to be heard. When you get to the heart of that, then that's when people are really able to connect. And when you were first cast in their own way.
- [13:21]
Paul Wontorek
Yeah. And I remember when you were first cast, everyone thought, oh, she's too young and beautiful to play Norma Desmond. And I thought, she's the exact right age. And the whole point is that Norma is a vibrant, beautiful woman. It actually makes it more heartbreaking when you see how much potential there is to celebrate Norma.
- [13:40]
Nicole Scherzinger
That's the tragedy.
- [13:41]
Paul Wontorek
Yeah.
- [13:42]
Nicole Scherzinger
Is when we were playing with Salome, I thought, okay, like, what silly stuff are you gonna want me to do? I'm obviously gonna bring my sense of humor to this. Jamie, you know, what kind of old school kind of dancing do you want me to do? He's like, oh, there's no old school dancing. I want. You're gonna do, like, stuff you did in the Pussycat Dolls. And I was like, but that's cool. And he's like, yeah, you're gonna do you. And I was like, but that's not, like, you know, Salome, like, old school. And he's like, no, that's the tragedy is you are so vibrant. You are so full of life. You're, you know, more fit, more brave, more everything than ever. And then the industry still, you know, just looks at your age and dismisses you. And it's the truth. It's crazy. I think when I started to hit my 30s, you know, people are like, you just go from, like, one age to, like, the mom. You know, you're like, wait, where? I just, like, jumped, you know? And they were like. They, like, don't want to consider you for, like, so many things. And you're like, are you kidding me? It's a bit crazy.
- [14:52]
Paul Wontorek
I want to talk about your mom. When you won your Olivier, you said that the warrior of Norma Desmond comes from your mom. Tell me about her.
- [15:01]
Nicole Scherzinger
Oh, my goodness. My mother. My mother is my everything. She had me when she was 18 years old, and so she sacrificed everything for me her whole life. And she's just a beautiful, selfless heart, but she's also incredibly strong, as are all of the women in my family that I admire and look up to. I mean, I have come from a long family of warrior women who just, you know. You know, those women that just hold it down for the entire family like that. I don't want to say that silent suffering, but just that selfless love and sacrifice for their family. And I'm very proud to be of Hawaiian, Ukrainian, Filipino descent. So I know that the ancestors. My ancestors that came before me play a big part of. Of who I am as well. So I would like to bring that groundedness and that connectedness to it. But, yeah, I didn't. Growing up, it wasn't. You know, I come from really humble beginnings, and it's just nice to remember where you come from and your family. My family, my mother, my whole family. My mom, my dad, my sister, my tutu, my papa, all my millions of aunts and uncles and cousins. They keep me, My faith strong and keep me very grounded.
- [16:41]
Paul Wontorek
Yeah. And I know you were growing up in Louisville, Kentucky. Yeah. Kind of working class. Right. Your family. And you wanted to get into theater, and I heard that when you were a teenager, you got into the production of La Bette at Actors Theater of Louisville. Right. Which is a great costume play. You played the acolyte. Mm. What was it like? Was that sort of your first professional moment? And what was it like to be surrounded by theater people and to, you know, escape to that world?
- [17:13]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah, you're exactly right. I had the honor. I was at the Youth Performing Arts High School in Louisville. I had kind of found my kind and my tribe. But it was such a young age. I think I was like 14, just turned 14. And I booked my first job at the Actors, the prestigious Actors Theater of Louisville for the Humana Festival. A French play called Libet didn't speak a lick of French, but my name, Nicole, is French. And it was a whole new world for me to enter that sacred space. We got to be around those brilliant actors and to watch and to learn from them. And I would later go on to do another play for the Humana Festival called the Survivor, A Cambodian odyssey about the Khmer Rouge, which was very heavy, but I will never forget. That's like a big part of my foundation. The roots of my training was at that theater to be around those professionals. Like, these were professionals. This was like big time people. They'd fly in to come and do this theater. I will tell you, though, I was so green. It was my. Actually my teacher, God bless him, he's not with us anymore. Mr. Vaught, who said, you need to audition for Actors Theater of Louisville. And I was like, okay. And he's like, what are you going to audition with? And I was like, I've got the perfect piece. And I went into the audition room for Actor Theatre Flowl, French play La Bette. And I swam around and I sang. Look at this stuff. Isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think? My collection's complete. And I sang the Little Mermaid. That's all I had. I was so young, I didn't know what I was doing. But obviously I convinced them that I was a Little Mermaid because I got the role.
- [19:10]
Paul Wontorek
Now, I wish I saw you do that role. You must sing more of it.
- [19:14]
Nicole Scherzinger
I gotta save my voice for tonight.
- [19:18]
Paul Wontorek
You learn however you learn, right? And you're exposed to theater however you are. And you know what I mean? They saw that in you. And I know in college then you actually got to do some. Tell me about some of the roles you got to do.
- [19:28]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah, I went to Wright State University. Had the most wonderful, beautiful teachers and professors at my high school, but then also in college as well. And I played, let's see, Ms. Sarah Brown, great in Guys and Dolls. Julie Laverne in Showboat. I played Punchinella in commedia dell'arte show called Round Peg Square Holes.
- [19:57]
Paul Wontorek
Wow.
- [19:58]
Nicole Scherzinger
I played in this play, the Harlem Renaissance. I played Valmy Kelly in Chicago.
- [20:04]
Paul Wontorek
Fabulous.
- [20:06]
Nicole Scherzinger
Let's see. I've done Tup Tim and King and I and the King and I and Summer Stock Theater.
- [20:13]
Paul Wontorek
I love it.
- [20:14]
Nicole Scherzinger
A lot of different things. I played Ti Moon and Once on this is. And High School and Alice. And Alice in Wonderland, the musical.
- [20:22]
Paul Wontorek
I mean, there's a whole different version of this where I would have met you 25 years ago, but then you became a pop star. I mean, it's just so fascinating.
- [20:28]
Nicole Scherzinger
So that's what people don't realize, that this is kind of where I grew up at loving this space and where I really got to spread my wings and realize, wow, this is my tribe. This is my kind, this whole beautiful creative. All these creatives. And then. Then I moved to la, honey, and it was all gone from there.
- [20:53]
Paul Wontorek
Well, now you're here, and you are an overnight Broadway star. I mean, it must just. I can't imagine how it feels.
- [21:01]
Nicole Scherzinger
I'm an overnight Broadway star. God bless you for saying that. That's taken many, many, many, many, many, many, many years to get here.
- [21:09]
Paul Wontorek
But what's incredible is people who don't know about all that past and maybe just know you from, like me, maybe their Get Ready song is Buttons by the Pussycat Dolls, and they know you from that. But then they're sitting down and you're showing all of that experience that you just said. I mean, you were doing classic plays when you were a kid in addition to big musical roles, and you're getting to show all of that.
- [21:31]
Nicole Scherzinger
You were getting ready with me to Buttons, but now you're going to be getting ready with me to buttons. Or with one look, I did it this morning when I grow up. As if we never said goodbye.
- [21:42]
Paul Wontorek
Exactly.
- [21:44]
Nicole Scherzinger
Getting ready.
- [21:46]
Paul Wontorek
And that's the full normal. That's the full Nicole Scherzinger. Right. Both sides of you. It's just an incredible opportunity.
- [21:53]
Nicole Scherzinger
And that is that, like you said, what an incredible opportunity to be able to have a beautiful piece of material where I can show all of my abilities, all of my gifts and all of my talents. I feel extremely grateful. I've always prayed for the right time and the right opportunity, and it's now. So anybody out there, do not give up. Because sometimes you think, is it ever going to come? You know, and all the patience and the pushback and the pain was for a reason, that's for sure.
- [22:31]
Paul Wontorek
So now you're in power. What do you Want to do next Broadway? Let's make a dream list. Are you going to stick around? I mean, I know you have a nice healthy run of Sunset ahead of you.
- [22:39]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah. Let me get through this. Nine months. The rest of this upcoming nine months. My ultimate dream is to create my own musical. I've had that in my heart and my mind for the past 10 years. So I've kind of been working on that in the background. Slowly but surely.
- [22:59]
Paul Wontorek
But writing it.
- [23:01]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yes. And starring in it and music and everything.
- [23:04]
Paul Wontorek
Wow.
- [23:05]
Nicole Scherzinger
So I've hopefully this is a great springboard and platform for me to be able to connect all the dots and put the pieces of this puzzle together. But I want to do it right, so it will take time. But that's my dream.
- [23:22]
Paul Wontorek
I love that. You know, the other thing I wanted to ask you is you are getting mid show standing ovations, which is not a normal, by the way. Not that many actresses can say that they've experienced that's not like that doesn't happen every night on Broadway.
- [23:36]
Nicole Scherzinger
Really?
- [23:37]
Paul Wontorek
What is it like to actually experience it? It's funny because, Norma, you're staying very serious through. You know what I mean? There's not like a thanks, guys. There's never that energy, not even in the curtain call. The whole thing is extremely focused.
- [23:50]
Nicole Scherzinger
You know, somebody asked me that the other day. They were like, oh my gosh, a six minute ovation. What are you doing? And I'm like. I think when you pour out like everything, like you just really are there to be. To be a vessel and you try to really wholeheartedly give all of yourself, your heart and your soul. I think after the performance you're collecting yourself. Right. And then you realize, like, you can't. You're there, you're receiving, you're connected with that exchange. But you're in character because you got the rest of the show to continue, you know, so you're still. It's a really magical and powerful exchange I think then between myself and the audience. Like we feel. I feel really, truly connected. Like we're in this. Yeah. Together. You know what I mean? Now let's grab the rest of the show by the balls and go.
- [25:05]
Paul Wontorek
Well, Norma's. It's all about the beautiful people out there in the dark. Right. And hearing them and she's doing it for them. So I feel like it probably just adds to all of that.
- [25:13]
Nicole Scherzinger
It really does. Because when we do with one looks, there's a part where she sings the song and then the instrumental takes over with the gorgeous sweeping orchestra and the sound. And then the uk, they never did this, but obviously it's a Broadway audience. And they start clapping before the song's over. I'm like, why are they clapping? But I'm like, this is for Norma. And in Norma's mind, she hears the applause, and it's so beautiful. It's like they become a part of the storytelling as well.
- [25:47]
Paul Wontorek
I love it so much. You'll be seeing me at the St James Theatre often.
- [25:50]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yay. Good.
- [25:55]
Tamsen Fadal
Now here's Beth Stevens conversation with Laura Donnelly and playwright Jez Butterworth. We're talking about their new play, the Hills of California.
- [26:07]
Beth Stevens
The last time you two were on Broadway was with the Ferryman, and that was very much inspired by Laura's family. And it feels to me that this was more inspired by your family, Jez, is that the case?
- [26:17]
Jez Butterworth
Yeah, I think some bits of it were inspired by your family. I think the whole idea of a troop of children being drilled to fulfill a task that wasn't perhaps top of their list of things to do comes from her side.
- [26:33]
Beth Stevens
Are you referring to some kind of dancing that you did as a child?
- [26:36]
Laura Donnelly
Dancing, gymnastics, all sorts of family endeavors?
- [26:40]
Jez Butterworth
I used to refer to Laura's family as the family muck trap.
- [26:44]
Beth Stevens
Oh, wow. Lots of performing.
- [26:48]
Nicole Scherzinger
Yeah.
- [26:49]
Laura Donnelly
Yeah.
- [26:49]
Jez Butterworth
But, yeah, the rest of it, I think, is pretty much a hotch potch and a stew of all sorts of pain, trauma, and loss from my side of the equation. Yeah.
- [27:03]
Beth Stevens
Well, you said that with a smile, but it is about something very traumatic and very emotionally deep. Tell me about accessing that, both of you, that kind of emotion.
- [27:15]
Laura Donnelly
Well, I don't know. I don't really. I don't. That's. That's the best part of acting. It's the reason that I wanted to be an actor in the first place. So the more available, the deeper that you can be driven by the writing, the better. And I'm always looking for kind of where. Where the greatest depth in the play for whichever character I'm playing is, and then kind of judge everything else from there. But, gosh, it's just become so part of my job over the last couple of decades that I don't think of that as in any way unusual or tricky to do or anything like that. It is the job. Yeah. I love it.
- [27:58]
Beth Stevens
Jazz, it sounds like your writing process is long gestating and then a bit of a sprint. Is that true?
- [28:05]
Jez Butterworth
That's very accurate, yeah. And long gestating can mean five years, or it can mean 25 years, and the sprint bit can be six months, or it can be a month, or it can sometimes be even shorter. It's a strange thing whereby it just reaches a kind of point where I can't hold on to it any longer. And that's when the writing begins. And at that point, I'm holding on for dear life.
- [28:35]
Beth Stevens
What were some of the images or ideas that were rattling around for you as you were thinking about this work?
- [28:41]
Jez Butterworth
It's a funny thing which it's always hard to remember. And whenever it feels like I'm trying to kind of whistle it up again, it feels almost like I'm counterfeiting it. But I know it had things to do with the death of my sister and us gathering for what was a long, drawn out process there of her death from cancer in 2012. I know that it has a lot to do with things that happened to me early on in life. I know that it has a lot to do with, I think, you know, I have four daughters and there are four daughters in this van. I think at sometimes I'm upstairs dying and at sometimes I'm downstairs attending the death. Like in a dream where you're suddenly different characters and you're. I mean, I. Whenever I embark on trying to explain where this comes from, it's like I don't really. I still genuinely don't really know why it is like, when a songwriter sits down to write a song, I'm pretty sure they don't have like bullet points of things that they need to cross off and. And go through from their own life. It's just. It's kind of like a waking dream.
- [29:50]
Beth Stevens
So, Laura, you play two characters, but the mother character is a bit of an ambitious woman. And in this current era of momagers and you know, Mama Roses, she has more humanity to her that you found. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [30:08]
Laura Donnelly
Yeah, I think that that is because.
- [30:11]
Nicole Scherzinger
Because.
- [30:14]
Laura Donnelly
The emotion of the story is not based on somebody who wants her children to be famous. It's somebody who wants her children to have a. For them to be safe and to have a better life than she did. And so I think it speaks more to the universal experience of parenthood rather than specifically that strain of mother, as you say, you know, the momager. I don't think that it's essential in Veronica's character that she wants them to be famous in order for this. In order for the play to kind of continue as it does. I think that the important bit is that there is that she wants everything for them. She wants the best for them. She wants them to go out into the world and lead magical lives. And that her blindness to the risks around that means that she makes a crucial decision which has such a knock on effect for her relationship with her daughters and for the lives of the daughters after that. But I don't think that it's based around the stage and fame. It's based around that decision and those relationships and the consequences.
- [31:25]
Beth Stevens
This play centers on grief. Their daughters at the deathbed of their mother. But that's not the only kind of grief it looks at. It also looks at the grief of dreams. The grief of what could have been or what you may have been at one point and are not now. Can you talk a little bit about that aspect of it?
- [31:45]
Jez Butterworth
Well, I'm haunted, I think, by all of that stuff. I'm haunted by the idea of dreams not being fulfilled. I wouldn't say haunted. Fascinated. Fascinated by it. And how it is that people build up to the realization of that and then accept the failure of that Seems to me to just be inherently dramatic. I think about it an awful lot. Probably an unhealthy focus on how it is that people sort of cope with that and what it is they want. And I do think in Veronica's case, there's no sense in her character that she wants any of this for herself. I think that if she carried on living in penury and was completely anonymous, that would be absolutely fine by her. It's very much something. It's a way out for her children. And she thinks she's spotted it and she's. And it's the only way out that she can see at that point.
- [32:55]
Beth Stevens
You are writing mostly women characters here. There are male characters and they're not as well drawn as the women characters.
- [33:05]
Jez Butterworth
I think they're wonderfully well drawn. No, I think the reason why. Perhaps they are by turns feckless or avoiding what the death that is happening. Namely the characters of Dennis and Bill, the two husbands in the play. The reason that they are like that is that they have been chosen by the girls. You know, they have been chosen by two women who have. One who expressly says, I've settled for half because I refuse to be heartbroken again like I was in early life. And the other one has chosen somebody who she can confidently bully. And so they're on the stage because they're on the. Because the women are on the stage. And I felt like there was no way for these men to come on and be titans when they've been chosen by the story. At the same time, I'll Stand up for all of the men in this, with the possible exception of Dennis, who really can't. It amused me that you have somebody who, whenever he comes off on the stage, can't get off it fast enough, because what's happening in this house is just too hot and too painful for him to cope with. So he's sometimes on the stage for, like, 25 seconds before he's got out the door again, making excuses to go for another walk. And so that's really why it's shaped that way. But again, that's me just guessing at why it's shaped that way, because I just wrote down what I was told.
- [34:32]
Laura Donnelly
But I also find it really interesting as well that people comment on that, you know, the kind of. The significance of the male roles whenever, as women, we've been playing those roles in men's plays for decades, hundreds of years, the men are the story and the women are supporting that. And nobody's ever thought to comment that way around. So it's not a comment or an effort in any particular way. It's just that those women were the women whose stories you wanted to tell.
- [35:00]
Jez Butterworth
Yeah.
- [35:00]
Beth Stevens
Did it. Did you find it easy to get into the heads of the women? I mean, you are surrounded by women in your life.
- [35:06]
Jez Butterworth
I am. And I don't remember the moment where they all were women. It's an odd thing when a play idea forms in my head. It is like a doorbell rings, and you open it and there's characters standing there, and you decide whether or not you're going to let them in. And my first play, it was six men, and in this play it was eight women. And I'm not really sure why they come to the door. I just. They don't come to the door often enough for my liking, but when they do, I let them in.
- [35:35]
Beth Stevens
You know, Laura, you have the luxury of having characters written specifically for you. Are there discussions in your household about that as you're working together?
- [35:46]
Laura Donnelly
Not really, no. Because I don't think that. I don't think you're writing characters that you're thinking are specific to what I can do or what. I mean, I think somewhat with the Ferryman, because that was obviously a more personal story. But in this case, Jazz just has an idea for a play and knew that he wanted the mother to also be played by the same actress as plays the daughter. And Jess started talking to me about that early on, and I don't think there was a point where you said, do you want to do it? It was just kind of assumed because we've enjoyed our collaboration so much in the past, and it was just kind of assumed that that would be the next thing we would do. But I don't think you had any clue as to whether or not I could do any of the things you'd actually put in there, as I recall.
- [36:33]
Beth Stevens
Like play the piano, for example.
- [36:34]
Laura Donnelly
Well, I couldn't play the piano, so. Yes, exactly. So it's not written for me, it's written for him. And then I have to. I have to go in.
- [36:40]
Jez Butterworth
You'd be amazed how little we talk about it. It's this kind of. As I recall, I do the plays in acts, by which I mean, I write an act and then we read it through with actors and I get to hear how it sounds. And then I write the next act and we do the same. And I think I do that partly to grow the play, but also partly so that Sonja knows something's actually happening rather than not.
- [37:05]
Beth Stevens
Sonia Friedman, your producer.
- [37:06]
Jez Butterworth
Yeah, and so, like, when I'm halfway through it, she knows she's got to start scheduling at a certain point because it really exists. It's like an upfront payment in a drug deal. It's like there's real paper in the suitcase rather than just like cut up bits of paper. And so. But yeah, there's, as I would call, I kind of write the act. And I say to Laura, we're reading it through on Monday, and there hasn't really been much of a conversation about that. I can bang on an awful lot too early in the morning sometimes about the ideas behind the play, but it's never really specific to anything I'm going to require you to do.
- [37:50]
Beth Stevens
But you have insight into the process.
- [37:52]
Laura Donnelly
Yeah, I definitely do. Which, you know, is of course, incredibly helpful when it's come when it comes to my process, because I have some questions answered. Well, they're never questions in the first place because I. I have been party to the. To the thoughts behind the ideas and what it is you're trying to achieve with certain moments in the play. And so it gives me, yeah, it gives me a bit of a helping hand. But so much of it then gets developed. I mean, I think that often from the first act being written that by the time the third act is written has, you know, changed a huge amount then. And it's been. And it's been a process that has been brought out by a whole bunch of other actors around the table. You know, Jez finds it most helpful to have a full cast around the table just reading that first act and then the first and second together. And that's how he develops it from there. So I'm usually finding out about it at the same time as, you know, a whole bunch of other actors who are kind of actively auditioning as well in the read throughs.
- [38:53]
Beth Stevens
I was struck by the musical ambition in this play and the timing of the play. It's very cleverly right before and right after the explosion of rock and roll.
- [39:01]
Jez Butterworth
Oh, thanks for spotting that because that was one of the first ideas I had was to do precisely that and show the difference in the women's lives, Veronica's life and Joan's life, getting the same character to play, both around the same age and just how different their lives are on either side of that phenomenon.
- [39:22]
Beth Stevens
And you have a jukebox right there on stage. Do you listen to music while you're working? Is there something that's informing all the time?
- [39:29]
Jez Butterworth
Yeah, yeah, I'm constantly listening to music. It doesn't need to be specific to what I'm doing, but it often is. But yeah, it's a constant thing. I often find that I've unconsciously chosen something for the rhythm of what I'm writing and it helps with that. But yeah, I'm obsessed with rock and roll and I was when I was 4 and I am, you know, I am today. And it felt like a real fine to set something just like right, as you say, right before and right afterwards and miss out the bit in between.
- [40:02]
Beth Stevens
You know, I read, Laura, that when you. And when you and Jez first met, you said that his play the river reminded you of a song and that struck you. Do you feel that this play or all of his works remind you of songs? And if so, how.
- [40:15]
Laura Donnelly
Yeah, I find all of it. Does it just. One of the first things that will always strike me when I'm reading through a play of his for the first time is the rhythm of it. And that usually entirely, entirely informs how I'm going to play it. It just from the river and everything through. I just. The first time I read the river, it just. Something about it was telling me very, very clearly how it needed to be sung. And it wasn't the majority of the work that I needed to do on it wasn't going to be through research and digging into the motivations and the intentions in a character. It was just the rhythm of the writing and it just seemed to sing from the page and it seemed really obvious how that should be sung. So, yeah, and you say that yourself, that it's the rhythm even when you're watching or listening through it, those read throughs or watching the play for the first few times, you're really, you could do it with your eyes closed because it's really just listening for the rhythms of the play. And that is what tells the most of the story, I think.
- [41:20]
Beth Stevens
Well, thank you both so much.
- [41:22]
Laura Donnelly
Thank you very much.
- [41:25]
Tamsen Fadal
That's going to do it for us. But for tickets and more info about these two awesome shows, check out broadway.com until next time, I'm Tamsen Fadal and this is the Broadway show Uncut.