← The Bryce Crawford Podcast
The Bryce Crawford Podcast
An Epstein Survivor's Story: Abuse, Blackmail & Why She Thinks He's Still Alive (EP 192)
02:04:04
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- [00:00]
A
Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein actually killed himself?
- [00:02]
B
Absolutely not.
- [00:03]
A
Who do you think had him killed?
- [00:05]
B
I don't think he's dead.
- [00:06]
A
Think he's still alive?
- [00:06]
B
I think so. Knowing Jeffrey Epstein for three years, he would never go down in history as a man that killed himself or allowed somebody to kill him. His ego and his pride is through the roof.
- [00:16]
A
So if you think he's still alive, where do you think he is?
- [00:19]
B
Totally laughing at us. I think he's in Israel. I was 14 when I met Jeffrey. I started working at 12. And she turns to me one day and she says, I know this really rich and powerful guy, and he really likes to get massages from young girls. It's just a massage. Marina, you've been through so much worse with your stepfather. I'm just, like, looking around and there's, like, pictures of Andrews, President Trump, Bill Clinton. I'm pretty sure there was so many other people that I didn't know at the time, you know, because I was just 14 years old. He would tell us. He's like, I own the banks. I own the presidents. I know a lot about people, and if I share what I know, it would be a disaster.
- [00:58]
A
Today's podcast guest is someone that I admire and respect a ton. Marina Lacerda is someone that has had to experience things that most people don't have to experience in their lifetime. And instead of cowering in the dark in her story, she just decided to stand boldly and come out publicly and be courageous and stand in the face of evil and share her story. Now, I want to caution anyone watching or listening. Viewer discretion is advised. The story is graphic. It's intense, it's dark, there's evil. And she talks a lot about her sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. But we're going to navigate her story with honor and care. The Bible talks about how we should stand with those who have been oppressed and seek justice for those who have been exploited by evil, wicked, powerful people. And so it is an honor and a joy that I have the opportunity to get to talk to Marina Lacerda. And so I pray that her story encourages you to stand in the face of evil for truth and justice. Marina, thank you for being here.
- [01:51]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [01:52]
A
So happy you're here.
- [01:52]
B
It's an honor.
- [01:53]
A
I know you've done a lot of interviews, and you've before diving into the darkness and the headlines that people always know you as, like, who was Marina?
- [02:03]
B
You know, I was just a girl who went through so much in. In her life, and I think trying to navigate At a certain time, like, what could I do with my life? And a little bit lost. And then when I broke my silence, I kind of figured out what I wanted to do. But I always wanted. I always had a. You know, oh, I think I'm going to save animals. I'm going to adopt animals. I'm going to open up, you know, like. Like, kind of like where, you know, an adoption center for dogs, you know, start saving them. But I'm so weak in the knees for them. I would have probably kept all of them. So I'm just a girl with a beautiful daughter who loves dogs and now really wants to help women and men, you know, speak about what they've been through.
- [02:49]
A
What was your life like as a kid or even early teenager growing up?
- [02:54]
B
You know, I had. It's crazy because when I come and I do a lot of interviews, I'm like, I had such a great upbringing, you know, Upbringing. And, like, my life as. Even as a child and as a teenager was great. And people are like, how you went through, like, all these horrific things. And I'm like, I understand. But these are moments in life, right? Like, nobody wakes up happy every day. Like, not even the richest person in the world, right? Not even the healthiest person in the world is waking up. Like, I'm happy. I'm happy. So, yes, I had very horrible moments, but I still managed to enjoy myself with my family, my friends, you know. So it was good and bad, I guess I should say.
- [03:32]
A
So you're from Brazil, grew up in New York. Correct. And what was that like growing up in the city? Was it chaos? Was it fun? Was it scary? What was that like?
- [03:43]
B
Well, so when I moved from Brazil, it was a, you know, total, like, culture shock, right? Because Brazil is completely different, you know? And the way I grew up in Brazil, you know, we were, you know, middle class. Well, poor, struggling to be middle class. And thank God for my grandparents and my uncle. That really helped out my mom. So, you know, we barely had anything. You know, I would go over to my grandmother's house if I wanted, like, good breakfast, you know, so thank God for that. And, like, my ballet, my jazz and my tap classes were paid by my uncle. And when he would come to America, he would bring me back a lot of things, like Barbies, you know, he brought me back Rollerblades one time. And I swear to you, like, all of my friends were like, oh, my God, we need to. They were all. We're all different sizes. We would, like, go from one end to the street and Then we'd, you know, get each other. Yeah, exactly. So, and then when I came to America, I was like, whoa, this is completely different. You know, even the way I dressed, I got made fun of a lot. And my body and I didn't develop very fast. I feel like. I think American girls are, you know, everybody's different. I think everyone develops differently. And I didn't develop very fast, so I really got made fun of. And in Brazil, we don't have that. Like, it doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter how you look. I think that everybody, you know, all my friends in Brazil were very, you know, much different than my friends in America. So it was. It was a culture shock. It was different.
- [05:11]
A
Are you an only child or do you have siblings?
- [05:13]
B
I have a sister.
- [05:14]
A
Okay, cool. And what was your. What was your family dynamic growing up in New York?
- [05:18]
B
Like, off, you know, so when I came to New York, my mom had already, you know, met her boyfriend. And when I came, the first thing that my mom said to me, and we were in Astoria park, and she said to me, listen, I just want to explain something to you. You know, here in America, if you hit a child, you know, the parent goes to jail. But I'm going to tell you one thing. If you do the wrong thing, I will smack you. I will like, you know, she said it in Portuguese, and I, you know, you'll be taken away. You'll go to a house with a different family, and I'll go to jail and I'll get released. But you're going to be living with a different family. So make sure know to do the right thing, because, you know, there will be consequences. And not for me, but for you. So that always scared me because in Brazil, you're allowed to, you know, discipline your child up to, you know, a certain extent. And I think, you know, back then it was, like, very serious, you know, to discipline your child in a. In that way. So I was always very scared of that. So she met, you know, my. My stepfather, and I really. I stayed a year away from my mom because I. I stayed in Brazil. She came to America just to, you know, get things started. And I think maybe two, three months after I moved, you know, to America, my stepfather started to put on porn and. And. Yeah.
- [06:43]
A
And how old were you?
- [06:44]
B
I was 8 years old.
- [06:45]
A
In the living room?
- [06:46]
B
Yep. And he would lay me down on his lap. Like, I would have my head on his lap, and he would put, like, a sheet over my head, and he would just watch. Now I I'm 8 years old. I don't know what is going on, right? And I think even as adults, like, we are just so curious, right? Everyone has curiosity. So I would peek through the sheets, and then I would see, like, these things that were happening. So confusing to me, you know, because I grew up in a. You know, I grew up in Brazil with my grandmother. And, you know, there was a church down the block. We would go down to church. My grandmother was like, dinner, Lunch has. Everyone has to come here Sunday. So we were very like. And boys would try to do stuff to me in Brazil. And my grandmother would be like, no, that is not. You know, So I already knew, like, these things were not allowed. So after a while, he just took off the sheets off of my head. And then I was watching porn with him. And then next thing you know, he started to reenact what was going on to the point, you know, what was going on with me. And I was completely confused because I didn't know anything about, you know, anything of sexual acts. You know, I just knew, like, a little tap kiss. Like, that's all I knew. Like, that's all boys would try to do with me in Brazil, which I was still young, but boys would try to do that. And I was confused, and I didn't know it was wrong. I had no idea, you know. And my mom was at work, and my stepfather had the schedule where he would come in and out. And it wasn't like a set schedule. So it went on for a really, really long time. Then we moved in. Then my mom got pregnant with my sister, and we moved into a bigger house. And up until 10, 10 and a half, all these things were happening with me. My stepfather was sexually abusing me and teaching me things that I wasn't supposed to be taught at that age, right? And it kind of messed me up later, actually, because all those. Because, you know, I started when you can't have intercourse. When I had a partner and I was able to, and I was at the right age, I started to think that everything I was doing was sinful. Because I later, you know, when my mom caught me and my stepfather in the bed, he was, like, rolling around with me, and I didn't know. And he threw me off the bed when she walked in, and she was pissed, and she was like, what's going on here? So then, you know, they went into the other room and they started to argue. And then she came into my bedroom. She said, listen, I know what's been going on. Never ask me. Just thought that you knew. She's like, it's never going to happen again. I spoke to your stepfather. It'll never, ever happen again. Don't worry about it. And then she explained to me, you know, like, listen, this is an older man. He can't be touching you. This is not the right things to do, you know? And I was like, okay, well, this is absolutely wrong. He didn't stop. He continued, whoa.
- [09:33]
A
So. So you're eight, nine years old. It went from, oh, my goodness. So. So he's. You're being sexually abused by your stepfather. And your mom had known about it.
- [09:45]
B
She found out a ton.
- [09:46]
A
She. She found out. Then she was like, it's gonna stop. But it never stopped, right? And did she know that it hadn't stopped?
- [09:52]
B
So then I. So then I would go back to her and be like, hey, he's, like, doing this again. You know, he's. He would creep into my room in the middle of the night, and I'm like. I would get so, you know, not only annoyed, but scared, because now I don't. I don't want to say anything because as soon as I would tell him I'm going to say something, he would start physically abusing me. So. And then later on, you know, like, when it be the next day, I'd be like, mom, like, he's doing it again. And she would go and argue with him, and then he would stop for, like a month, and then he would do it again, and then I'd go to her. It was a cycle that didn't break until I was 12 years old.
- [10:26]
A
Oh, my goodness. So that's happening with your stepfather. You're being raised. Your mom is pregnant. What was. And you said you grew up kind of poor, struggling to be middle class. Did. Did money ever get in the way at that time? What was that like?
- [10:41]
B
Well, in Brazil, we were poor, struggling for middle class. When we came to America, we were, you know, middle class. It was, you know, it was pretty, you know, normal. You know, I had a bicycle. I, you know, had a few toys. I mean, I didn't have the coolest sneakers. You know, I think everyone was. And that's where the culture shock came in. Like, everyone was wearing Jordans back then, and I was wearing, like, Pumas. Do you remember Puma? You know, I had, like, puma sneakers. And maybe like, the most I had were, like, the Spice Girl sneakers, like platforms. Everybody was wearing them. Those are the only two things. And, like, I would have my birthday party at McDonald's, you know, and that, for me, was great, you know, so that was kind of the dynamic of how, you know, we were. But we. It was fine. And then I think that being also an immigrant doesn't help out in America, because we were immigrants, you know, we didn't have our papers, you know, And I think that causes a. You know, that. That's a big issue in America. When people come here without their papers, they start to look at jobs that sometimes is not the, you know, the best job for them, you know?
- [11:49]
A
And how did everything in between the abuse you were experiencing at home, the pressures of life come, like, moving into the States, everything. The emotions, money, all of it. How did that shape you at that age?
- [12:07]
B
It's so weird because I think I got introduced to sex in such a young age, and I feel like people at my age would play, like, school or play, like, you know, with dolls. I started to play like I was a sex teacher. And I don't know how that happened. You know, I think it really. What really got to me was the fact that my mom would not go to the police after, you know, she found out. And he wouldn't stop. And then I would tell her, and she still wouldn't, you know, she's like, oh, no, he's gonna stop. And then she would tell me, okay, we're gonna leave. We're gonna set up and we're gonna leave. And then we wouldn't leave. And I'm like, but why are we leaving? You know? And she's like, well, because we're immigrants. If we go to the police, they might, you know, send us back to Brazil. I don't have the money to raise you and your sister. We're just going to have to stick around. And I'm like, but I don't want to stick around. Like, I was 11 years old and cursing my mom out at that point.
- [13:04]
A
Where was your biological father at at this time?
- [13:07]
B
It's weird because my biological father had four other kids, okay. And he was just not there. You know, he didn't do anything wrong, but he wasn't a present father. And I think my mom also was just, okay, sign off for my daughter to go to New York, and she'll be back. And I never went back, you know, so he didn't know anything. My father's no longer here with us, but he, you know, he didn't know that I was getting abused.
- [13:36]
A
Your mom. Your mom and your biological father, they weren't married.
- [13:39]
B
They were married.
- [13:40]
A
Oh, they were. So then she was just like, hey, sign this paper. We're Gonna leave and then.
- [13:43]
B
And she'll be back and. And I never went back. And, you know, my, my father, you know, my mom is 68 now. He's 25 years older than her, so he was. Yeah, he was already, you know, an old man, you know, and he's, you know, what is he gonna do? You know, so. But I, I do remember, you know, going through all these things in my life, and I was, you know, in my, in my head, I was like, why am I going through this? Like, why me? And I would just ask, like, but why God? Like, why am I going through these things? Like, what did I ever do wrong? And I'm like, this has to be like a past life thing that I do something wrong in my past life. You know, I was very confused. And I think a lot of people that go through abuse, they're just. When I see, you know, messages on my platform, they're like, why am I going through this? Like, why, why? Why is God doing this? You know? And I think only later on in life you start to understand, like, God really gives you what you can handle. He will not give you what you can't handle. And I think the purpose of it is, like, what are you going to do with all of this that you've been through? How can you change this narrative? You know, you, you have to change it and, and, and, you know, make
- [14:54]
A
it positive in a lot of ways. The way that you were brought up, unintentionally, we're talking what, being abused physically and sexually by your stepfather. The, the pressures of life, everything in between leading up to really what's making you speak out. Your involvement with Jeffrey Epstein and all that other stuff, in a way, and it breaks my heart to say this, but it's true. You were almost like unintentionally groomed into this position just by the things that you had already experienced. And so that's why I'm really intrigued to kind of know everything in between that's happening after this. I mean, the thing that's really just breaks my heart is this idea that you were told very young, hey, you can't speak up about it before even the sexual stuff happened. I mean, your, your mom's kind of like, hey, you know, we can get disciplined back there, but here in America, you know, it's. Which that is like, somewhat true, but it's like, hey, you can't discipline the same. So, like, don't say anything or we won't see each other again. And it's slowly, slowly, slowly goes and I, you know, I know this is really a big part of your story, but how did you get involved in the world of Jeffrey Epstein? How did you get introduced to him? What was that? Like?
- [16:17]
B
My stepfather ended up going to jail. When we lived in this house, one of the roommates, because they used to rent out two of the rooms. We had a four bedroom. So one of the roommates, he started to sexually abuse her. So she. I used to go to burger. I used to do anything not to be home. I kid you not. Anything I could do to not be home, I would go. So she found me in Burger King and she said to me, hey, listen, I know your stepfather is abusing you, and he's doing it to me too. So let's go to the 114 precinct, which is an Astoria Boulevard. And I said, I literally jumped. I was like 12 years old. I jumped out of my seat, not thinking of, like, any consequences, not thinking like, oh, my God. And this is just me back then. Like, my mom is going to be so mad at me. Like, she's going to be like, why did you go? You know, I just wanted this monster out of my life. I was, you know, up to the point where it's horrible to say, but I was, like, planning, like, how to kill this person.
- [17:14]
A
Wow.
- [17:15]
B
Because I was just trapped in a place where, you know, my mom would leave me home, go to the supermarket, run errands, knowing that my stepfather's abusing me. So it was so confusing, you know. So when he went to jail, he did only six months. Because when I went, when I did tell my story to the cops, they were like, you're just jealous of your sister because she's born. And I was like, no, this is really happening to me. And they kept saying to me, like, no, are you sure? Like, your stepfather is gonna go to jail. And he's, you know, this is a very huge accusation. Like, this is dangerous. And I was. Then I started to minimize my abuse. Like, oh, well, he only touched my upper part. He only did it for a year. I started to get scared. So they only gave him six months of jail and they gave him five years of probation. So when he went to jail, my mom came to the precinct eventually and, you know, we went back home and, you know, his stuff was thrown on the floor and she was crying and she was so upset. Now me at 12 years old, I'm like, oh, my God, finally I'm gonna sleep, you know, a night without worrying about if this man's gonna come into my room. You know, and right there and then, I knew that everything was gonna change. My mom was like, well, you know, you can't do your ballet classes anymore because we can't afford them. Well, guess what? Now we're gonna have to all live in one bedroom in this house because you wanted to go and tell the cops about your stepfather. So now we have to rent all the other bedrooms. You know, like, if I wanted to do anything, she's like, well, now, now we can't. Like, you know, and it just became a lot like that. And then I started. I was already kind of hanging out with the wrong people, you know, and my mom was the type of mom, like, if I was taking my sister, my younger sister to the park and I was doing what I needed to do, I would have the night for myself. Which is crazy, right? Like, I have a 13 year old, a 12 year old daughter who's going to be. I would never let my daughter out by herself. So I would go out with no problem. And that leads to meeting the wrong people and doing the wrong things. And I had this girlfriend who I really, you know, was with every day. And, you know, she was definitely not the right person to hang out with. And she turns to me one day and she says, hey, listen, I know you're going through a lot of, you know, different things in life with your stepfather. I know you're going through this, you know, very hard time, but, you know, I know this really rich and powerful guy and he really likes to get massages from young girls. And I was like, okay, but why? Why does he want to get a massage from me? She's like, well, he just likes young girls. He just likes, you know, pretty young girls. And it's just a massage. Marina, like, you've been through so much worse with your stepfather. Yeah. And I was like, okay. I was like, well, that, you know, at the time, she wasn't wrong. You know, before I entered Jeffrey Epstein's world, I was like, it's not that bad, you know, so we got in a cab, we got there, and she's like, listen, the only thing is he just wants you to take off your shirt. It's just like being in a bikini. She's like, it's the same thing. She just made it so. Okay. And being home and not being able to buy the food that we wanted, not being able to go to ballet and getting blamed every day because the reason why we couldn't do these things were because I went to the police.
- [20:38]
A
Whoa.
- [20:38]
B
Yeah. My mom was really ruthless with me like, she would call me. You know, it's a thing we say in Portuguese called vagabondo, which means, like, you're. She'd be like. She'd be like, get up. Like, go, Go, go to school. Like, I wouldn't want to get up to go to school because I was working at nighttime. Oh. And so.
- [20:57]
A
So your stepfather was really the. He was really, like, the financial provider. So when he leaves, you lose all your stuff. Really, what you did was bold, courageous. You're tired of it, and your mom's blaming you, you lose the stuff. And so now when you're faced with this, you're like, I can get my stuff back. I can be a provider. You can't blame me. You can only thank me if I start bringing money home.
- [21:21]
B
Exactly.
- [21:22]
A
And so. And then even. Even with the. The years of abuse leading up, you're like, oh, well, my stepfather did this. And that friend using that, like, towards you. Well, he did this to you. All you got to do is, you know, take your shirt off, and you're like, oh, what?
- [21:38]
B
You know, I've been through worse. It did make sense at the time. And I also really wanted my relationship with. I'm like. I was. And I think all Latin women are like this. We are so, like, in love with our moms. Like, our moms are like a rock. And we just won. Like, I just wanted our friendship and our relationship to be the way it was before, and I was willing to do anything for that. And I think up until last year, I was still doing that with my mom. So I. I was already working. I had worked. You know, I was working a real estate office. I worked in an important export factory. I worked in a catering hall. I. I worked in so many different places.
- [22:19]
A
And before this opportunity, before this. And you're like, 14 or 12 or. How old were you?
- [22:25]
B
I was 14 when I met Jeffrey. I started working at 12.
- [22:28]
A
Oh, my goodness. I'm like, how's that even possible? You're at a real estate office.
- [22:33]
B
I was a secretary, and the place is still there. I used to work for Angelica, her name. And the. The real estate is called Capital Realty. I used to pick up the phone, Capital Realty. And I worked there in the summer, and I would work there after school. And then I was like. I had said to her, I was like, I need to work more. She's like, you go to school. When are you going to work? She's like, you can't work here. You know? So then I started working at the catering hall, which Would have. It's a Jewish catering hall in Bedford, Brooklyn. And they wouldn't have. They don't have parties all the time. They can't have part parties all the time. Jewish people get married in. In certain days and, you know, it's. It's a little bit different. And then I started working in a Greek nightclub close to when I met Jeffrey. At that young, I was selling flowers.
- [23:15]
A
Whoa.
- [23:16]
B
The name of the place was called Sirocco.
- [23:18]
A
Oh, my goodness. And so.
- [23:21]
B
And let's not. Let's also talk about how these men that hired me were in their 40s and 50s. They knew I was not 18. So these, like. Let's talk about predators all over. Like, my life has always been around predators, which is insane.
- [23:38]
A
Oh my gosh. And so was before. I mean, I. I guess you wouldn't have been able to find this out if we're about to get into what the first experience was with. With Epstein and all this other stuff, but did this friend tell you how much money you were gonna get paid? And you were like, oh, this is way better than like me working four hours over here or.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah. So when I used to work at night, you know, I used to collect tips. So, you know, I would work from. I would get there at 7 o' clock and I would have to, you know, would be me and two other girls and we would make the. It was called the Bouquets. And like Greek have these. Excuse me. Greeks have these traditions where you break the flower and you throw on the singer. They also pop open champagne. They throw money on these singers. They like. I don't know, they have a really. I think it's pretty cool. But it's just their tradition to show respect of, you know, the singer singing the, you know, these beautiful songs. And I would come in at 7 o' clock and I would leave the pending on where the last customer was or the last guest. I would leave like 5, 6 in the morning.
- [24:41]
A
What?
- [24:42]
B
And then I would.
- [24:43]
A
You would get there at seven at night and leave at five or six in the morning and then go to school.
- [24:48]
B
And that's where my mom would be like, get the up. She'd like, get the up. Like you're lazy. Like you're a vagabond. I'm like, how am I? Just worked all these hours, brought home like 3, 400 in tips.
- [25:02]
A
Like, and your mom is talking to you like that. That young. Oh, my gosh.
- [25:08]
B
And then I would go to school and then wherever I was, I would just sleep wherever I was. I would like, we Would be like getting a bagel before school. And we'd be in. In the stoop and I just fall asleep. I'd be in class. I'd just fall asleep. And then it got to the point I'm like, damn, I don't even want to go to school because I'm so t. I would, like, start cutting school. I feel like I was completely misguided.
- [25:29]
A
So to think that you could get that same amount of money and do it in a couple hours and get to sleep and go to school, you're like, oh, this sounds good, and it's not as bad. So the buildup was just. Yeah, I'm just wild. It's interesting because from a biblical perspective, Satan, everyone thinks of the devil as, like, this guy with. Who's red with a pitchfork and horns, and he's intimidating. So if you see the devil, you're like, oh, stay away. But people don't understand. And Satan is very handsome and seductive and slick. He's not like the red guy. He's like in a tuxedo with the slicked back hair. And he knows what kind of. To hear this buildup and then to hear this offer of going, here's this much money in a short amount of time, and it's not as bad as your childhood was. Here you go to me, like, understanding. I mean, that just. Oh, my goodness, I've got so many questions. But you get in this cab, your friend goes with you.
- [26:22]
B
Yes, she goes with me. And she had told me, hey, you're gonna make $300 for the half an hour, which, I'm sorry, I totally forgot to say.
- [26:27]
A
A half an hour.
- [26:28]
B
Half an hour, 40 minutes. She's like, we'll be there half an hour, 40 minutes tops. And I was like. And I was sketched out by it. I was like, that's so weird. But I knew her, and I, you know, I already. She already. You know, this is the thing. This friend of mine was the kind of girl that always knew somebody. Well, a man that wanted to either get beaten up or get like, yeah,
- [26:55]
A
I know, get beaten up.
- [26:58]
B
She knew all these guys, and she would tell me, she's like, hey, like, I know this guy. Like, he really likes. He likes. He wants to get burned. He wants to get beaten up by. By girls. And at the time, I was like, oh, yeah, I definitely want to do that because I was hating older men.
- [27:14]
A
And you would, like, basically let your rage out.
- [27:16]
B
Oh, my God, 100%. And then I would still make a little bit of money, you know, not $300, because they weren't. She wasn't getting that kind of, you know, payout. But she would always lead me to these things. And I always tell her, like, listen, I love to do this because, like, I'm so mad at older men right now. But I always told her, I don't want to be touched because I was always touched all my life. So I was like, I don't want anybody touching me. So she already knew that I was okay with doing certain things, but I was not okay with anybody touching me. So when we went to Jeffrey's, she already knew what my limits were. So I believed that I was gonna go there, I was gonna massage him for $300, and that was it, you know, and when we got there, you know, just being in Manhattan, looking at this mansion, you know, this huge wooden doors, you know, has his initials on the side of the door. And. And she rang the. The intercom and the. The maid comes out. You know, they asked who it was. She comes out, she opens the door. She's wearing like a, you know, an outfit, like a French maid. I'm like, wow. Like, I've. I've never even seen this in my life. You know, we go into his office waiting area, which is on when you come in, it's on your left hand side. And we're sitting there, we're waiting, and I'm just like looking around, and there's like pictures of everybody, like Prince Andrews, President Trump, Bill Clinton. I mean, I'm pretty sure there was so many other people that I didn't know at the time, you know, because I was just 14 years old, you
- [28:53]
A
know, like framed on the wall and stuff like that.
- [28:55]
B
He had them on a. He had a desk on this waiting room was also like kind of his office room. He had another office room, and he would. He had a huge desk and he would have. Have those pictures there. But then he had like, like a bureau and it had pictures with Ghislaine, who. We were like, is that his wife? And he always had the little girl in the pictures with him too. We. And we, you know, as time went on, we were like, he's definitely married and has a daughter. We eventually asked him, which we'll get there. And so when I got there and I saw all of this, I was like, whoa. Like, this guy is like the real deal. She's never brought me to a house, to a mansion. First of all, there's no mansions in Astoria. Queens. Just want to put that out there.
- [29:40]
A
Whoa.
- [29:40]
B
And I never knew that there were mentioned mansions in Manhattan. I always thought them as, you know, like. You know, people have, like. You know, they live in apartments, you know.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah. Like a skyrise.
- [29:49]
B
Yeah.
- [29:49]
A
You know, maybe a penthouse.
- [29:51]
B
Exactly. Never thought there'd be a mansion in Manhattan. So, you know, 10 minutes being there, and I'm like. Like feeling so weird because I've never, ever been in a mansion before. So I'm, like, whispering the whole time to her, and she's like, babe, you can stop whispering. Like, you can just talk normal. Because she felt so out of place, you know, very intimidated by just the whole situation. So the maid comes and gets us, and she says, jeffrey's ready for you guys. So we walk to the elevator. Now I'm walking to an elevator. I'm like, there's an elevator in this house? This is insane. I'm 14 again. I'm. For me, an elevator is just, like, in a. In a place of business, you know, it's. It's like it was so out of the world. Like, everything was just so shocking to me. And we get in the elevator, we hit the third floor, the doors open, and there's, like, a hallway. And he has, like, sketches of, like, naked girls, and he has, like, a statue of, like, a woman with, like, half of her body and all these weird things. And we step into his massage room. And my first. First. First. The first thing that I observe is when I look up at his ceiling, he has clouds. And I was like, wow, this is such a way to be, like, relaxed. Like, this man knows how to definitely get massages. I still don't know why I'm here, because he looks like he's really into, like, you know, being relaxed or, you know, just being, you know, massaged. I was like, like, okay. And there's, you know, a massage table in the middle. And then right next to his massage table, he had a little desk where he had his lotion. But he did have also a huge bureau full of massage lotions, including Victoria's Secret, which Victoria's Secret was so expensive at the time. I don't know if you remember. And, you know, girls, at that time, I would walk into Victoria's Secret, and I would just go there to spray stuff on because I couldn't afford it. So I was, like, mesmerized. The fact that he had all these Victoria's Secret lotions, which he had much more expensive lotions in there, by the way. And I get there, and I'm like, you know, she's like, all right. She's like, take off Take off your shirt. You know, so I take off my shirt, and I just have my bra. And he comes in and he's like, hi. He comes in on a rope. He's like, hi, my name is Jeffrey. And I said, hi, my name is Marina. He's like, I've heard such wonderful things about you. And I literally look at my friend like, oh, my God, you've already said some things about me. How great is that? Like, thinking that she's telling him, like, hey, you know, my friend is from Brazil. She's struggling a lot. You know, she's. She's taking care of her family. This is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking she's already, like, kind of hooked me up with, like, telling him some of my story. He lays down with his head down, and he starts to ask me, like, hey, do you go to school? How old are you? Where are you from? Do you have a sister? You have a brother? Where's your father? You know, And I didn't tell him my stepfather had abused me. I was very embarrassed at the time about it. And he was really nice, you know, really, really nice. And he's like, hold on one second. I have to get on the phone. He got on the phone, and we're just massaging him. And, you know, in the middle of his conversation on the phone call, he goes, hit my calves. Hit my calves. Like, go to my calves. And I'm like, okay. So, you know, we're massaging him, and then he hangs up the phone and he turns around and his towel comes off. I'm just thinking he's probably going to get up. The towel came off by mistake. And he looked at me and he's like, you know, come. Come here. You know? And I came closer to his upper body, and he was like. He turned around to me and he said, can I touch your boobs? And I was like, no. And I was like, what? What's going on here? Like, this was not. You know. And then he goes, can you take off your bra? And I was like, I am not comfortable now. I'm like, what do I do? Where do I go? I'm in the third floor of a mansion that I've never been before. And everything. He had blocked off all his windows and put curtains over them. It's completely dark. The only light that we're getting is from this. From the ceiling of clouds. I'm looking at my friend like, why would you do this? You know? And she got mad at me. She was like. She said to me in Portuguese. She's like, oh, you're being such a prude. And then she comes over my side. And he told her. He goes, don't worry. It's okay. It's gonna take some time, but she'll get comfortable with me. And in my head, I was like, absolutely not. Like, this guy is out of his mind. And I'm standing next to her, and she is, like, right with Jeffrey. And she is leaning onto Jeffrey, and she is pinching his nipples so hard, pulling them, pinching him, and he's, like, grabbing her. And then he spits in his hand. And he just starts, you know, stroking his private area. And when I say stroke, starts it so aggressively to the point where he's, like, picking up his head, where he's having a hard time to climax. I later on found out why. And then I'm just standing there like, what is going on? You know? And, you know, he finally climaxed, and then she, you know, turned to me, and he said, well, it was nice to meet you. He goes, I'll be seeing you again. And I just shook his hand, and I didn't say anything. She handed. He handed her over the money. We went downstairs, and she was like, is wrong with you? I'm like, what do you mean? I was like, you. You didn't tell me any of this. I said, I'm not used to this. I said, I'm used to going with you and beating up guys and making a little bit of money. I said, this is totally different. She's like, listen here. And she, like, like, throws it in my chest. She's like, any girl would have begged me to be here. She's like, I don't know why you're acting like this. She's like, listen, you need to understand something. You're an immigrant. You right now don't have a lot of money. And literally, like, at that time, our dinner was like that noodle cup. That's what we would eat. Like, me, my mom, and my sister. If we would have meat, it would be ground beef and maybe sometimes. And she's like, here. She's like, any girl would have been happy to be here. She's like, I don't know why you're acting like this. I'm like, because you didn't tell me any of this. She's like, well, listen, you need this. This guy over here, he knows people. He's gonna get you places. He's gonna. He's gonna hook you up with stuff. And I'm like, I understand, but I'm not Comfortable with this, you know, she's like, listen, he's coming back in town, and he's gonna want to see you, so I'll call you. And I, you know, we. We. We went our way. And I. In my head, I was like, I'm never gonna see him. But I did.
- [36:49]
A
Oh, my goodness. I mean, what is going on in your mind after that first. That's heavy. That's really heavy. I can't even imagine. Yeah, I mean, what. What is going on in your mind after that first interaction when you get home?
- [37:07]
B
I'm gonna be honest with you, because I am a very honest person. I didn't think anything of it. I just thought I made money, I could give it to my mom. We could buy some food. And I needed to get ready because I had work that night, and I needed to move on with my life. You know, My thing really was I needed to provide for my mom because I messed up, because I went to the police and I told on my stepfather. You know, And I think that really. I think that's been my problem up until last year. Like, trying to make things right with my mom or ask for validation for my mom, or just, you know, asking her to talk about what happened, you know? And my mom will never admit that, like, she was wrong. And I think, like, that's the only thing I want to hear from her. Like, hey, I messed up. Like. And I think, like, being a mom or a dad, it doesn't mean that you are perfect. You're still human. You're allowed to make mistakes. I'm a parent. I make mistakes. You know, And I think the main thing here is to take accountability for it and say, you know what? I messed up. I messed up. I really messed up. But how can I make it up to you today?
- [38:27]
A
It shocks me, but doesn't shock me at the same time that you were kind of. I didn't think anything about it because part of me is, like, out of everything you've shared leading up to this moment, that sounds like the most intense sexual anything that has been described, at least just from our conversation here. Again, I haven't lived it, but from everything you shared, I'm like, wow, that's intense.
- [38:51]
B
I think my most intense moment, my mom one day got upset at my stepfather because, you know, I had told her that he was. You know. Cause it was that cycle. Oh, he's doing it again. And she would get in a fight with him. So one night she says, you, we're gonna sleep in the living room and the living Room. It was a bed, but she made it into a couch. And the top bed had two mattress, so she moved one to the floor, and I slept on the floor and she slept on top. And in the middle of the night, my stepfather came into the living room and he crept into her bed and he was kind of like trying to make things right. And I'm in the bottom bed in the bottom mattress, and he turns and I hear her, like, stop. You know, like, you know, like arguing. And next thing I know, they start having sex and my mom is moaning. And my friend the other day did something similar to that. Like she. She did like a moan, nothing sexual. She was just like trying to explain something. And I said, oh, don't do that. I said, that just brought me back really bad memories.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah.
- [39:57]
B
And she's like, why? And I had to explain it to her. So my mom was moaning. Now I'm thinking, what is going on? Like, why is she moaning? You know, I wasn't thinking that. We're having sex and I went to go tap my mom and my mom hit me and she's like, go to sleep. So I had to lay in that mattress listening to my mom and my stepfather have sex. And her. I think that memory for me is like one of the worst memories ever. Because, like, nobody wants to see or hear their mom have sex.
- [40:29]
A
I mean, before we go any further, I'm just. I'm so sorry. I mean, this is so. And I know you're gonna say, well, you know, I've been through this and I, you know, but like, really, I'm just. I mean, for you, that's normal, but that's not normal, you know, And I'm. I don't. I'm so sorry, but I can totally see how now, I mean, that clarity. And there's probably so much more that you haven'. Leading up to first encounters with Jeffrey Epstein. And then you're just like, well, I mean, that was weird, but not that bad. And you just kind of let it slide. But that wasn't. And you said that he went out of town and next time he would come out of town. So this wasn't like a every night gig. This was every now and then kind of deal. Or it became. It became more consistent.
- [41:18]
B
Yeah.
- [41:19]
A
Oh, man.
- [41:20]
B
He had reached out to my friend and he's like, hey, I'm in town. I want to see Marina. So she reaches out to me and she's like, hey, listen, Jeffrey's in town. He really likes you. He wants to see you and struggling, you know, My mom and I were. She just really. I think until today, I think my mom just does not like me. I think she thinks that I liked the abuse of my stepfather. I think she became jealous. I don't know what happened with that. And I was like, I'm gonna go. And you know what? I'm gonna go and I'm gonna prove to him that I'm not, like, my friend. I'm gonna prove to him that, like, I am worthy more. Like, I have more to bring to the plate. Like, he's somebody that can help me. So, like, maybe if I show him that I have way more than that, he will take me serious. So I said to her, I said, you know what? Okay, yeah, let's set it up and go. And when I went back, he was extremely nice. He didn't try to touch me. He didn't ask me to remove my bra. He talked to me. I gave him massage.
- [42:26]
A
And did you go by yourself that second?
- [42:28]
B
No, she. She came with me, and then he was very nice, and she didn't think anything of it. I think she already knew what he was doing. And then he was like, listen, you know, you. You can start coming here by yourself. And I was like, yeah. I said, I. I don't have a problem, because now I'm like, okay. He understands. He completely understands that I'm not doing any of these things. So I started to go there alone. And I would see him sometimes two, three times a week, depending how, you know, how much time he was in New York. And eventually, it was just like. It was crazy. I was, like, completely naked. It's like, how did I get here? You know? It's like, one day I came in. He's like, well, come on. Just, like, take off your bra. Like, you know. You know, we're friends. Like, I'm not gonna do anything to you. Like, I just want to see them, you know? I just. I just want you to be. I want you to be free and feel comfortable and just getting to know. And the grooming process. I was like, okay, you know? And then next thing you know, take off your pants. I'm like, oh, okay. He's. He hasn't done anything. And the next thing you know, I'm naked. And the next thing you know, he's actually abusing me. Next thing you know, he's like, me. And the next thing I know, he's getting. He's. He's calling the girls in the room and me in front of the girls and telling the girls, like, hey, you want to get places. You want to do things, you need to be a good girl like Marina.
- [43:47]
A
Whoa. So he would use you as, like, a doll, as an example to say, hey, if you want help here, if you want money, if you want to increase your life, you got to do what she's doing.
- [44:03]
B
Yep.
- [44:04]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [44:06]
B
And I think it's something that I think a lot of some of the survivors don't like to talk about it. There comes a time that Jeffrey Epstein no longer is interested in you, and then he starts to ask you, hey, how about your sister? And I'm like, nope, I would never. My sister's eight years younger than me. And for him, it was like, oh, yes. Like, this is exactly what I wanted. I was like, no, because I. My mom went back to Brazil. My mom couldn't come back. My mom sent my sister back to Brazil because my stepfather ended up getting deported.
- [44:38]
A
Whoa.
- [44:39]
B
So she. My. My little sister was like, I. I want to go see my father and my mom. Instead of being honest with her, or maybe not honest, just saying, like, hey, it's not gonna happen, you know? My mom's like, oh, well, no, you know, you can't. My sister's like, but why? But why? And my mom's like, you know what? She wants to go. My sister was 8 years old. I'm gonna send her. And I was like, no. I'm like, this guy's a pedophile. Like, what are you talking about? Oh, no, he's not gonna do it. It's her daughter. I'm like, I don't think that's how it works. I feel like pedophiles don't care if you're like, their cousins or if they' like, young children. They're going to do something right. And my mom sent my sister. And my sister was born in America, so she's an American citizen. At the time, we were still immigrants. And she said to me, I said, I don't think you should send her, because if you send her, you're not going to be able to get her. And he's not going to send her back. It's exactly what happened. My sister gets there. I can hear on the phone that she is being sexually abused by my stepfather. And she's like, like, mom. She's telling my mom, I want you to come live here. And my mom's like, I can't. If I go there, I can't come back to America. She's like, I really want you to live with me and dad. So my mom ends up dropping Everything goes to Brazil. Then my sister's like, I want to go see my sister in New York, which was me. And she's like, okay, go visit your sister. My sister comes to New York and she's like, yeah, well, dad has been doing this, and then he's also been doing it to. To all the girls in the neighborhood. So now I have no friends. So I'm like, you're not going back to Brazil. So my sister. I took care of my sister from the ages of 11 until 17. And in between that time, my sister became epileptic.
- [46:19]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [46:20]
B
And I was completely clueless what epilepsy was. Yeah, completely clueless. I had no idea.
- [46:25]
A
And were you living with anyone else but yourself?
- [46:28]
B
I was actually. I had my own apartment at that time.
- [46:31]
A
And how old were you?
- [46:32]
B
I had a lease at 15 years old.
- [46:34]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [46:35]
B
Yep. So I had to move out because after my stepfather got out of jail, maybe two months or three months after, my mom was like, hey, your stepfather's moving back home. I was like, what? I was like, what do you mean? Like, I'm like 14 and a half. Like almost 15. So my boyfriend at the time was like, you're not going. Like, we're gonna rent an apartment. Meanwhile, my ex boyfriend at the time, beautiful, awesome parents. I mean, like, I. Because, you know, obviously I didn't have the best parents. I was just like, you know, listen, you don't have to. You have, like, a really good home. He's like, I'm not letting you go back there. So we ended up finding an apartment across the street from my. My old. From my apartment. I know it was. It was insane, but it was the only apartment that we could find. And then eventually we moved into another apartment, which was much bigger, but we. The. The. Which is crazy because he's. He's still a lawyer, this guy. And he was. He was my. He was my landlord. My landlord. Thank you. And he did a lease under mine and my ex boyfriend's name. And I think my mom was in there too, because I think he needed to use an adult. And. Yeah, I had my own apartment at 15, and eventually, you know, my boyfriend cheated on me, which I don't blame him because we were so young, you know, and so misguided, and we were. Were all doing drugs at the time. And he cheated on me. And I went back home with my little bicycle one night because I found out he was cheating on me. And I slept there and I was so pissed. I was like, I can't believe you cheated on me. He was fifth. He was 16, 17 at the time. He was a year older than me. And he, you know, the next day he goes, listen, Marina, like, I know, like, you don't want to be back home with your stepfather, so just, just come back over here. Like, I'll leave. So when he left, I ended up having this four bedroom apartment, two bathrooms by myself. And I was like, whoa. Like, I was splitting bills with somebody. Now what do I do? So I just rented out all my rooms. Whoa.
- [48:33]
A
Yeah. And then your. I mean, your sister comes and moves in. How long were you interacting and working for Jeffrey Epstein?
- [48:45]
B
So from what I remember, I was with. I was working or I guess with him from the ages of 14 until 17. So it was 2002 until 2005.
- [48:56]
A
And then he just got. You said he just got tired of you. And that's what ended.
- [49:00]
B
Well, eventually. He was like, hey. He's like, how about you bring your sister? And I was like, no, absolutely not. Like, I, like my little sister, for me, was like, my, like, yeah, you
- [49:10]
A
just wanted to protect her.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah, like, I already as like my. My little daughter, you know? And I was like, no. And he's like, well, he's like, you got, you got to bring me somebody. He's like, I'm like getting bored of you. And I'm like, I'm not bringing anybody here. I'm like, I'm embarrassed of this. This is super embarrassing. Didn't tell any of my friends, you know, but it so happened that I met this European girl on my block, and I was still living across the street at the time, across the street from my old. Apart from where I lived with my mom. And I was walking my dog and this girl was sitting on a stoop and we just became friends. And she was like, you know, my brother is abusing me. My brother, you know, has his girlfriend. He's like, you know, physically abusing us. And then one of her mom's friends, the uncle, was like, locking her up in the bathroom and sexually abusing her. She was going through so much. So I was like, hey, listen, come live with me. Me and my boyfriend. So she moves in with me and she's like maybe six months older than me. And I came home one day and she always used to ask me, she's like, where do you go in the city? She's like, where are you going? I'm like, oh, I just go, I walk around. I would, I would never tell her.
- [50:21]
A
Yeah.
- [50:22]
B
So one day I'm like, hey, I. I Like, want to tell you this, but I'm so embarrassed. And I told her, like, everything about Jeffrey Epstein. And she's like, I want to go there. She's like, I, I need the money. And I'm like, you know, but I have to be honest with you, like, it'll eventually lead up to this. She's like, I don't care. She's like, I need money. I don't want to live with you for the rest of your life. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, you sure you want to go? She's like, yes, I want to go. And I brought her there. And then it was like, we knew another friend and this other friend wanted to go. And then next thing you know, all of Astoria, all these Latin, all these European girls just didn't come from a good home, were misguided, were using drugs. A lot of them also came from another country and their parents were like, you know, Brazilian people have these, this thing. Latin people, I'm sorry, not just Brazilian people. Latin parents have this thing, like, hey, we'll give you $5,000, you go to America and go rent the room out and go to school. No 16, 17, 15 year old is going to come to America and do an English, like, and, you know, go to English school and learn English and be able to survive on $5,000. And they're like, well, you'll get a babysitting job. How are you going to get a babysitting job with no English, no background, no experience? You know, American people are not like Brazilian people. They're like, they want to go through your background and see like, where you worked so it doesn't work out that way. And when these young women come to the country, the first thing they do is like, what can I do to make money? So then everybody in Astoria kind of knew that me and this girl were seeing Jeffrey Epstein. So everybody would come up to us, hey, listen, we heard that, you know, you're giving massages. And we would be embarrassed. They're like, no, no, no, we want to go too. Like, we want to get out of our house. Like, and then some of these girls would live in my house for like six, three months at a time, and they would move on. And you know, some of these girls, I think that I don't, that I don't speak to Jeffrey Epstein ended up helping them.
- [52:21]
A
And people were coming up to you because he was popular, powerful. And then they had just heard through other people. So they're like, it's not like just, oh, we're going and giving. We're going and working for this random man. It's like, oh, we want to go talk to the really rich guy.
- [52:35]
B
Exactly.
- [52:35]
A
And get, get the money.
- [52:37]
B
And all these women, you know, all these girls didn't come from a healthy family, you know, like a good dynamic. And I'm not, when I say this, I'm not talking about like a broken home, like a divorce, because they are a divorce. I'm going through a divorce right now. And me and my ex husband, we co parent, like, we are on top of it. You know, we talk about everything. And I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about there's drug abuse home. A lot of these moms did not care. A lot of these parents did not care. A lot of these parents weren't present. They weren't even in the country, you know, so it's, it's. People need to understand that, you know.
- [53:13]
A
Did you have his personal phone number? Because then you started going alone.
- [53:17]
B
No.
- [53:18]
A
So how were you knowing when to go over there? You had like someone that.
- [53:22]
B
His secretary.
- [53:23]
A
Gotcha. I mean, do you ever think about the maid or the secretary?
- [53:28]
B
All the time. All the time, right.
- [53:30]
A
And. And they knew it was going on because the maid took you up there. You said it earlier.
- [53:33]
B
And she was like, all right, the maid, the driver. Sometimes the maid wasn't there. He would have his, I guess security or his driver would open up the door for us. I've had furniture delivered in my apartment by Jeffrey Epstein because I was like, oh, you know, I need to get new furniture. He was like, I'm getting rid of my furniture. I have so much furniture in my basement or wherever he said it was. He's like, I'll have my driver send it over to you. So he gave me all his old furniture. There were so many things that now I look at it, I'm like, wow. We would walk into his mansion on broad daylight where Howard Lutwick was like, lives right close to him. So it's like you would think, like, people are outside looking, like there's people in Manhattan all the time. You know, where he lived, it was pretty, you know, there was a lot of people walking. But I think that, you know, we have that saying, like in New York, like, just mind your business. Like, you know, like, keep to yourself. So I think that's a very New York thing. Like, just, if it's not your business, then just stay out of it. You know, it's like almost like my abuse with my stepfather. Everybody knew about it. Like, my neighbors downstairs knew about it. My best friend's mom knew about it. My friend's parents knew about it because they were coming over and they were getting abused, and they would go home, and then they weren't allowed to come back. So nobody said anything. So it went on for a long time. Nobody wants to get involved with the police.
- [55:03]
A
I figured, you know, I mean, I can also understand the intimidation factor of someone like a Jeffrey Epstein going, not only is this guy abusing me, but. But powerful, wealthy. And in your shoes, from what you've described, I'm an immigrant with no dad and no money. I'm not messing with the really rich, powerful, popular guy.
- [55:24]
B
And he made it clear, too.
- [55:26]
A
He made it clear not to mess with him.
- [55:29]
B
Oh, he would tell us. He's like, I own the banks. I own the government. I own the presidents. I own Prince. I know a lot about people, and if I share what I know, it would be a disaster. He's like, I know. He's like, I know everything about everybody. And he used to be, you know, later on, we used to. When me and my girlfriend used to go there, he'd be on the phone with celebrities. He'd be on the phone with all these, you know, some of these people from Congress, and he would put us on the phone with them, like, say hi to this, you know, beautiful young girl that's giving me a massage. And they'd be like, hey. And we would feel like, oh, my God. He's. He's like, he's. He's. He's. He's. We're important. He's, like, showing us off. And we'd be like, hey, you know, like, so happy. Like, there was one celebrity that. We're like, oh, my God. Like, we think he's so funny. We absolutely love him. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe you're friends with him. He's like, I'll call him up right now. He called him up, and we're like. We're like, oh, my God, we're huge fans of yours. Like, we think you're so funny. We absolutely love you. And he's like, yeah. He's like. And then he got on the phone with Back with Jeffrey. He's like, hey, Jeffrey, we're supposed to fly to, you know, to this place soon, you know. He's like, yeah, yeah. He's like, I just wanted, you know, you just say hi to the girls. The girls are a huge fan of yours. So he would brag about that he was getting massaged by Young girls.
- [56:50]
A
Do you believe Jeffrey Epstein actually killed himself?
- [56:53]
B
Absolutely not.
- [56:54]
A
Who do you think had him killed?
- [56:56]
B
I don't think he's. I don't think he's died.
- [56:58]
A
Think he's still alive?
- [56:59]
B
I think so.
- [57:00]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [57:01]
B
What do you think?
- [57:02]
A
I don't know. I remember.
- [57:04]
B
I just. I just turned this whole thing over. I was like, what do you think?
- [57:07]
A
I. I remember. I remember, like, my friends and I would talk about it. I was a sophomore in high school, and we would. We would, like, talk, first of all,
- [57:15]
B
like, you're, like, so young that it's like, I almost want to be like, stop being young because I'm so old. He's like, I was a sophomore in high school. I'm like, what?
- [57:24]
A
I just remember, like, we were. We were. I was. I'd be a sophomore in high school, and we would talk about a lot of stuff. We were talking about aliens. We were talking about, you know, well,
- [57:32]
B
now you guys can go through the ufo.
- [57:36]
A
I don't really care. You said earlier, like, I don't really care about that. It's whatever, like, you know, but that we would talk about it. And we were all like, no, we don't think he killed himself. We don't. We don't think he killed himself. But we never really had the thought of, like, oh, is he still alive? We just thought, he didn't kill himself. Somebody killed him. But could he be alive? I don't know, because I see all these videos online where people think they saw them and. And things like that.
- [57:59]
B
And then I remember, that's not Palm Beach Pete.
- [58:01]
A
Let's just ask you if you knew who that was.
- [58:04]
B
Yes, I do know Palm Beach Pete through a friend of mine, knows him very well, and he's very annoyed about the situation.
- [58:12]
A
For someone that doesn't know who Palm Beach Pete is, he's this guy that looks just like Jeffrey Epstein. Just like Jeffrey Epstein. And he happens to live in Florida. But it's.
- [58:20]
B
And no, not only just live in Florida. It's like, two blocks away from his house.
- [58:24]
A
Oh, is it really?
- [58:25]
B
Yes.
- [58:26]
A
Oh, wow. It is. But it's not him.
- [58:29]
B
It's not him. He's very annoyed by that. He looks like Jeffrey Epstein, and he
- [58:34]
A
can't even control that.
- [58:35]
B
It's like, he can't. And also, like, we also have to understand, like, we are, like, why are we praising this person? Like, why are we glorifying somebody that looks like Jeffrey Epstein?
- [58:44]
A
I don't like that Internet culture where, like, people make memes and they glorify like the, yeah, it's weird.
- [58:52]
B
It's weird.
- [58:53]
A
Yeah, the AI pictures and stuff.
- [58:55]
B
It's bad. And then now all of a sudden there was like a note that they found in his cell. Did you see that?
- [59:00]
A
Yeah, just saw it the other day where it said, like, it was like scribble writing and you could barely read it and.
- [59:07]
B
Not fun.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah.
- [59:09]
B
First of all, so I just have to say this. Knowing Jeffrey Epstein for three years, he would never go down in history as a man that killed himself or allowed somebody to kill him. He has a, his, his ego and his pride is through the roof.
- [59:23]
A
So if you think he's still alive, where do you think he is?
- [59:25]
B
Totally laughing at us. No, I mean, I, I think he's in Israel. And I mean, I could be wrong. Maybe somebody did kill him, but I think he's still alive. I think he was somebody that, you know, was too important to stay alive, right? Let's say too important to stay alive, knew too much. But then he was somebody also too important to be like, okay, like, somebody can kill him because he was never going to kill himself. I can promise you that. Like, there's no way Jeffrey Epstein would go down in history as a person that chickened out and killed himself. Because I know people are like, oh, my God, you have to be brave to kill yourself. I don't think that. I think you're trying to run away from your problems. And you know, you are, you know, just, you are, unfortunately, you are a weak link and you want to kill yourself. Like, you want to get away from your problems, and it's the easiest way out, out, Right? So I don't think that's Jeffrey Epstein. I think he is the type of person that's like, I am going to stay alive, I am going to beat the system, and everyone here is going to help me because I got stuff on you, on you, on you, on you. And you and everyone is going to do whatever it takes to keep me alive and get me out of here. So I, I, I think he's alive.
- [60:41]
A
Did you ever travel with him, go anywhere? So you couldn't?
- [60:46]
B
I couldn't. And also a lot of people ask me, like, you weren't trafficked to other people? The only person I was trafficked to was Ghislaine. People have to remember this. We were like hood girls. Does that make sense? Like, we were from the streets. Like, we had this mentality of, like, we needed to make money and we just needed to pay for our bills and take care of what we need to Take care of. Jeffrey was not going to bring us around his friends. That. That was for sure. And traveling, I mean, at that time, we were so scared. Like, we wouldn't. I wouldn't even get up and go to Florida. You know, I was living in New York, and, like, all my friends like, oh, we're going to Florida. I'm like, yeah, I'm not going because I don't have my papers. You know, at that time, it's like, how it is now, how ice is now. Like, people don't even want to travel. You know, forget about plane now. Cars. People don't buy car. People don't want to travel because they're scared of ice, you know?
- [61:38]
A
So you started becoming public about this September of 2025. So not even a year ago.
- [61:43]
B
Yeah.
- [61:43]
A
What was it like keeping all of this private up until last year, when
- [61:47]
B
the FBI came to me in 2008, and I didn't go. I got subpoenaed in 2008 to go to West Palm. Right. Because he got the sweetheart deal in 2008. And I was scared, and I called him when the FBI came and knocked on my door, the house that I was living by myself on 41st Street. They came and they knocked on my door, and I, like, closed the door on them. I was like, I'm not talking to you. And literally, the FBI agent threw her card and was like, you're gonna talk to me whether you're. Whether you like it or not. So I went upstairs and I called Jeffrey, and I was like, why are people. Why is the FBI calling from, like, calling me and asking me about you? He was like, don't call me back. Don't call me. Don't call the office. He's like, I'm gonna have a lawyer call you. So he got a lawyer for me, and when I went to the lawyer's office, I was like, am I supposed to be honest here? Because, like. Because I knew. They knew, like, there was no way that they did not know what Jeffrey Epstein was doing. They were like, you need to be very honest here. And I started to be semi honest because I was like, these people are not protecting me. And when I was honest about the whole situation, they were like, like, you're going to jail. And I was like, what? They're like, you're going to jail. You mean to tell me you brought your friends to Jeffrey Epstein's house? I said, he asked me for it, and a lot of these girls needed to go. They were like, you're gonna go to jail. So I was like, what? I'm going to jail? Like, yeah, you might have to go to jail. So I was so scared. I was like, wow, man. And I remember it was June in 2008. It was close to my birthday. I was like, I can't believe. Believe this is happening close to my birthday. So it was such a. Such a time where, like, I, like, bl. Like, I just erased everything from my mind. All I know is that one day I got a phone call saying, hey, don't worry. You don't need to go to West Palm. You don't need to do nothing. I was like, okay. I was like, I. I never. You know, and back then, we didn't have Google, and I didn't look up Jeffrey Epstein. I was just like, thank God I don't have to do this right then fast forward 2019. I'm, you know, separated from my. My husband. At the time, we had separated and living with my daughter. Now my mom's back in America living with me, and the FBI knocks on my door. I wasn't home. My mom is like, what did you do? And I was like, nothing. I'm, like, working now. At that time, I was working in a strip club as a manager. Okay, As a VIP manager. And I'm like, absolutely nothing. I have a legal job. I'm not doing anything illegal. Like, I know I owe money for my taxes, but I was like, yeah, you know, the cops. At the time, it thought it was the cops. So I was like, oh, my God. I registered my car in New Jersey, and I live in New York because I didn't want to pay. I don't want to pay high insurance, you know? And I was like, oh, they caught me. They caught me with that. And I'm in the supermarket, and I'm calling my friend. I'm like, like, hey, listen, they're about to take me in. But listen, bail me out because I need to get bailed out because I screwed up because I wanted to be a jerk and, like, put my insurance in Jersey. So I come back home, and, you know, I open up my door and I close the door, and the f. You know, the cops that I thought was the cops, it was actually the FBI. And they knock on the door, and they're like, hi, are you Marina Lacer? And I was like, yes, I am. They're like, can we come in? And I said, sure. So my mom went upstairs with my daughter, and I said, we want to talk to you about Jeffrey Epstein. And my whole body, my heart just, like, dropped. I Was like, this can't be. This can't be true. Like, this can't be serious. Like, this is going to haunt me for the rest of my life from 2008 till 2019. I said, oh. So, you know, we started talking a little bit, and they started to ask more deep questions. And I said, I'm sorry, we can't talk about this right now. I have my daughter upstairs. My mom's upstairs. And they were like, it's okay. We're gonna give you a list of lawyers. You do have a right, you know, you have a right to obtain a lawyer. So we're gonna give you a chance to get a lawyer. And, you know, when I got a lawyer, they still didn't explain to me that I was supposed to go to West Palm. And if I would have went to West Palm, Jeffrey would have never gotten that sweetheart deal because they would have started investigating in New York. But he knew to take that sweetheart deal because if he didn't, I was gonna go on stand. And if I would have went on stand, they were gonna be like, wait a minute. There's a whole bunch of other girls in New York. We thought this was only happening in West Palm.
- [66:27]
A
Can you explain the sweetheart deal?
- [66:30]
B
The sweetheart deal was Alexa Costa, which was in 2008. He had. Well, Jeffrey Epstein at the time. This is from, you know, going back and understanding what I can't understand, because it gets confusing. And then not having the files released, we can't really understand everything, right? So Jeffrey Epstein had gotten caught for procuring a minor prostitute. A minor. Which I find that crazy, because can a minor really be a prostitute? Right. Like, I feel like that's a weird. I. I still don't understand that. So he got caught with that, and then he. And he got caught in West Palm, and they were saying, like, hey, listen, you're gonna go to jail for a really long time. And then the FBI comes to me, and they're like, hey, we know about you. That's when I had to call. I called Jeffrey, and I'm like, but why are they looking for you? And Jeffrey already knew he had problems in West Palm. So his mind was like, let me get her a lawyer that's gonna be on my side. Because if she goes and finds another lawyer, which I didn't have money at the time, he was like, they're going to tell her she needs to go on stand. But I had already gotten subpoenaed, so I had no choice. So what I think would happen was Alexa Costa, and everybody was like, listen, if you don't take this, you're going to have this girl from New York come in and testify against you. And if she testify against you, she's going to tell them about all the things that you've done in New York, including other women, other girls. I'm sorry. And these other girls brought other girls. These other girls. It's just such a huge pyramid. And so Alexa Costa was like, listen, just do 13 months and you know, you'll be set, like, you'll be able to, you know, to have work release and all that. And Jeffrey Epstein took it. And he was like, yeah, I'm gonna take it. And then I didn't have to go to West Palm. So that's why they call it the sweetheart deal. Because if he didn't take that, I would have went on stand and he would have definitely. They would have investigated a little bit further into New York.
- [68:33]
A
You've talked about how you only really started to understand what had happened to you until you started to speak out. What do you mean by that?
- [68:42]
B
Well, when you're abused, you go into different cycles of abuse, right? I got into my marriage and when I first met my husband, I was like, oh, my God, he's jealous. It's so cute. Cute. It's not cute, right. And that progressed into something even worse. And then my ex husband was physically abusing me. It was so bad, to the point where, like, I've had a gun pointed to my head. I got body slammed. And then when I got pregnant, it was like he would leave the house, he would leave me home. He would never be in the house. He was cheating on me. And he would be like telling me, like, listen, you're gonna stay home and that's it. You're pregnant and that's it. And then. And I had to get married to him. I didn't want to get married, and I didn't want to get married in an Orthodox church. I wanted to get married in the beach. I never had gotten baptized. So then I had to get baptized. I had to do all these things just to get married to this man. And I just felt so much pressure. And then I had my daughter, and it was almost like he got a little bit softer. And he didn't physically abuse me, but it was so much emotional abuse. I was like, oh, my God, like, I can't do this. And that's when we separated. And then when the FBI came looking for me in 2019, I went right back to him. And it was even worse because I wasn't Working because Covid happened, and now I was prescribed Xanax, but then I started to abuse it. So now I am taking Xanax, like, 10, 15 pills a day.
- [70:16]
A
Whoa.
- [70:17]
B
Just to cope, Just to be numb.
- [70:20]
A
Wow.
- [70:20]
B
Just to be numb.
- [70:22]
A
But wouldn't you. I. I can understand that, but would you feel like you'd been numb since 8 years old because you're. You're. From that. From what you said. I mean, I get, like, the feeling of numbness, but just in general, from 8 years old to what you're saying now, it's just different forms of abuse, whether it was sexual, emotional, physical. And so you're kind of not really getting to process it until you speak out. And that's.
- [70:49]
B
I just wanted. I. I don't know. You. You still feel things, you know, especially when the FBI is on you, you know, and you have all this pressure to testify against somebody, and then you also have to tell your friends that you're about to tell the FBI about them as well. So it was a lot of pressure. And I. I just really started to. And the thing is, the Xanax I was getting, it was from the street, so it wasn't even Xanax. It was like Fentanyl. Oh, it was really bad. It was really bad. And then covet happened, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, nobody was working. My daughter didn't have to go to school. I was just taking, like, a whole handful. And it just shows how absent my husband was that he did not know that I was on drugs. Like, nobody knew. And we made the decision to move down to Florida. So I went and bought 4,000 pills of Xanax and put it in a box of one of the moving boxes that was coming down to Florida. And I just threw it in there now, not knowing, like, what box was it. We had over 200 boxes because we put numbers on them, Just threw in a box. And our moving day got pushed back, and I was like, oh, okay. So now I call, you know, the guy that I used, you know, used to get my. My drug dealer. I was like, hey, I need more Xanax. He's like, I can't. I gave you 4,000 Xanax. I'm like, oh, my God. I have no more Xanax. He's like, I don't know what to tell you. So then I started to get withdrawals, and now I'm not telling anybody because I have no more Xanax, right? Not sleeping, not eating. Like, my stomach was a complete mess. And by the fifth Day without Xanax, I'm laying in bed with my ex husband, my husband at the time, and my daughter, and I fall over and I start to seize. And I think every. You know, everybody was confused. I didn't know what was happening, and I'm seizing. And next thing you know, I am in my driveway with my orange pants, in my Adidas sneakers that I had at the time. And I'm looking down and I'm like, like, confused, you know, But I was. I was. I was awake. Like, my eyes were open. But I. You know, when you have a seizure, the oxygen is not going to your brain, so it takes a while for you to fully understand and to like, you know, actually be up. I was only aware when I was in my driveway and I looked down. I'm like, well. And I start to fight everybody. Like, no, no, no. You know, I don't want to go on the ambulance because I'm confused. And they were like, no, no, ma', am, you had a seizure. And I was like, oh, man. So the whole ride to the hospital, I was just laying there, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I really wanted to stop, but this is a problem with people that are addicted to drugs and to alcohol. They're like, one more day. Only one more day. One more day, one more day. It's so hard to stop. You want to stop, but the addiction is so real. It just takes over everything. So when I got to the hospital, everybody was like, all right, we're going to set up an mri. You know, they're like setting up all these things. And I was like, I need to be honest here. I am highly addicted to Xanax, and my husband at the time was like, what? He's like, what do you mean? He's like, how? I was like, I've been getting them from the street, and I'm been taking 15 to 20 pills a day. The doctor looked at me, he's like, how are you alive? I was like, I don't know. He was like, yeah. So I was like, yeah, I want to stop. And they were like, okay, well, we need to do an MRI on you. But I was so. My body was so, so out of sorts that I couldn't get into the MRI machine. I was like, no, no, take me out. I mean, I was so paranoid about everything, and I got out of there and my ex husband was like, you' not set stepping foot in New York. You're going straight to Florida. And I was like, all right, fine. So I go to Florida, and now I'M in Florida, and now I'm like, oh, my God. I. I have only been with Alzanax for seven, eight days in my body. So now I'm still withdrawing, and I. I can't eat. I can't sleep. I'm having panic attacks, like, to the point where I would get up. I'm like, you know, so now I'm going to the doctor. The doctor's giving me anti. Antidepressants. And I'm like, but I'm not depressed. I'm just having panic attacks. I was living at the doctor for, like, six months. She was like, listen, you need to stop coming here because there's nothing I could do for you. And she was right. There was nothing she could do for me. I should have went to a rehab center not knowing much about it. You think rehab, it's like, okay, you're trying to slow down off of drugs? No, it helps you, like, you know, get your body back to what it is. So I went through a very. I would say, 18 months. My body started to shift back again to somewhat what I would say a normal body.
- [75:42]
A
Wow. And what was the moment after all of this, even the struggle with drug addiction? What moment changed where you were like, I'm gonna start speaking out about everything I've gone through.
- [75:58]
B
So I went to Virginia. I went to Virginia Giuffre's memorial when she first passed away in West Palm. And Brittany and Brad, who are my lawyers, they actually were looking for me for a really long time. They weren't my original or my original lawyers, but they were looking for me. And when they found out I moved to Florida, they found me. And they were like, we want to. We want to meet you. And I'm like, okay. They're like, you have, like, a very important. You're a very important piece of this. And now Brittany and Brad, you know, were working on the case for years. They did the Filthy Race Rich documentary they were doing, you know, investigating this, and for years. So they were just trying to figure out who was minor victim one. Like, who is this girl? We want to meet her. So we ended up having dinner together, me, Brittany, and Brad. And they were like, you know, we've been trying to look for you since 2007. And I was like, whoa. Yeah, I know. I was like, wow. I feel like I wasn't that hard to find, you know? They're like, yeah, well, we've been looking for you. We wanted. Because they really wanted me to go to West Palm.
- [77:07]
A
Yeah.
- [77:07]
B
But if I would have known that they Wanted me to go to West Palm, I would have.
- [77:11]
A
Were they involved in the sweetheart deal?
- [77:14]
B
They weren't involved. They were just like, they were. They were the lawyers for West Palm. The girls in West Palm.
- [77:20]
A
Gotcha.
- [77:21]
B
So they were like, if we get this girl from New York, he may not get the sweetheart deal. But, you know, there was so much corruption behind it that they couldn't, you know, that's why they were looking for me. Like, we just want to get this girl here. They didn't know that Jeffrey Epstein had hired the lawyer for me. Me, you know, they had no idea.
- [77:38]
A
And when did you meet them?
- [77:39]
B
I met them in 20, 24 or
- [77:43]
A
25, I think over a decade. They looked for you?
- [77:47]
B
Yes.
- [77:47]
A
Oh, my God.
- [77:48]
B
And all the girls that, like, were in Florida that knew me or, you know, they just, they. They didn't. They couldn't find my number. They didn't, like, they didn't want, you know, they didn't want to look for me. They just didn't, you know, so it was like, so weird. So. So they were like, you know, we had dinner. They're like, well, it's so nice to meet you. So we kept in touch, you know, and they were like, hey, listen, Virginia, you know, who is one of your survivor sisters. Now, I didn't know about the survivor sisters. I didn't know about the girls in West Palm, like, you know, all this. So they were like, we want you to come, you know, it's going to be a memorial for her. And I said, of course I'll come. And I get there and of course, like, I know a couple of the girls, and, you know, I was like, wow, like, okay, there's like a lot of us, you know, there's girls in here from New York that moved from New York to Florida as well. And I get there and it's beautiful memorial. Oh, my God. I've never met Virginia, but, you know, between her brother and her sister in law speaking, and Sigrid, which is, you know, was Virginia's lawyer, I mean, I was crying. I was like, I've never met this beautiful soul. But, like, she's worked so hard and was, you know, victim shamed and people were calling her a liar and like all these things, and I was like, wow, this is insane. Insane. You know, so in the end of the memorial, we all had little butterflies in the cup and we let it, you know, we let it out because she loves butterflies. And I got to speak some to some of my, you know, survivor sisters. And, you know, not about the Abuse and just talking about how they've been doing a lot of advocacy work and, you know, fighting for this. And I was like, wow, that's. That's pretty cool. You know? And I think three, four months later, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, three, four, Two, three, four months later, Britney's like, hey, would you want to, you know, talk about your abuse in front of the Capitol? And I was like, whoa, that's a bit much. She's like, well, listen, you think about it, you know, it's. It's something that, you know, it's an option. You know, if, you know, you want to do advocacy work and you want to, you know, maybe, you know, change some lives and, you know, get other women to speak, it would be nice for you to open up. Up.
- [79:56]
A
Yeah.
- [79:57]
B
I said, I gotta think about it. So I. I spoke to my husband at the time. He was like, you're crazy. You're gonna go out there. This is gonna. In, you know, this is gonna mess up Victoria's life. This is gonna mess up my life, you know? And I was like, how would it mess up your lives? This is something that happened to me. Everything that. This is the problem with my ex. Everything was about him. It was like, wait a minute, I went through this abuse. I'm the one that should be worried about. He's like, no. He's like, no. I told my family in Brazil. They're like, who the gonna want to hear your story? Like, what are you talking about? Like, nobody wants to hear your story. Nobody, nobody cares about, like, this story. Like, it happens to everybody. And I was like, wow, nobody's backing me up on this. My friends were like, girl, don't do it. Like, just like, for what? And I'm like, I feel like we should be changing the culture. We should break, bringing awareness. We should. There's more Epstein survivors. There are people that don't talk about their abuse, no matter if it's Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire, you know, a poor guy, a black guy, a blue guy, like, it doesn't matter. Like, people are getting abused. So literally, like three, four days before they went to Washington, I called Brittany. I was like, do you still have space for me to go? She's like, yeah. I was like, I want to go. Didn't tell my ex husband the day I was going to leave. I was like, I'm going to Washington. He's like, but we didn't even talk about. I said, there's nothing for us to talk about. This is a decision I'm making. This is Not a we decision. This is a me decision. And I went and it was really hard to actually speak because before I broke my silence in front of the Capitol, I spoke to Congress. And that was tough. It wasn't a closed door. That's why I think when Nancy May, I think she was the one crying when she walked out. She was crying over the whole thing. I think it was her. And it was really tough. I couldn't even finish my story. I had to have Britney finish my story for me because I was like, literally like, you know, when it hurts so much that your heart and your throat hurts? That's how painful it was. And then when I, you know, the following day I broke my silence in front of the Capitol.
- [82:01]
A
You've talked about having certain records and files being released. Why is that so important to you?
- [82:07]
B
Why it hasn't been or why it has been released?
- [82:10]
A
Why is it so important that certain records or files need to be released? Like, why has that been such a prominent thing thing for you and important for you?
- [82:17]
B
I think everyone should be asking that. Because if we look at it like these last 3 million files that were dropped, we have so many names in the files, right? Like we have so many prominent people in there and we're just like, oh my God, the corruption is so heavy. It's so real. Nobody is doing absolutely nothing about it, right? And then. And we go back and we go, so if they're not doing nothing, these 3 million files were. I mean, there was some pretty crazy allegations in there. I don't know if you read them.
- [82:55]
A
Well, there's a lot to go through.
- [82:56]
B
There's a lot.
- [82:56]
A
I've only looked at some, right?
- [82:58]
B
And did you see the one where like there, there's an accusation of a girl, she went down on Trump and then she bit him and he slapped her. There's numerous of allegations over President of Bill Gates with also Elon Musk. There's some pretty prominent names there. And you know, there's a lot of accusations. And then they find this girl, right? This 13 girl, a 13 year old girl at the time. She ended up getting an abortion. Trump. That's what it says, the allegation. These are allegations. Donald Trump made her get an abortion. I think not even in a hospital. Okay. I think it was her uncle did it. It was a crazy story. They finally find this girl and now we don't know where this girl is. Congress supposedly found her and I'm like, but where is she? Then they have found another Trump survivor that I met in the Last time that we went, I didn't know she was a Trump survivor. And she said, no, I'm a Trump survivor. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, you know, we. We went to Washington a month ago, and I was like, oh, my God, like, why isn't she speaking? Why hasn't said anything, right? And I'm like, well, makes sense. First, people didn't believe us, right? It was just Jeffrey. It was just Jeffrey Epstein. And he was still very, you know, you know, out there, but he wasn't so much out there. People are not going to believe this girl, you know. So when we asked for the files to be dropped, we're just wondering, why aren't they dropping the files? Why are you dropping UFO files? Nobody's asking for them. Nobody cares about them. We know. I mean, some people believe in the UFOs, some people don't. It's not something that right now is, you know, affecting us. Like, it's not like they're coming here and invading our, you know, our world. Like, you know, we don't. We didn't ask for that. You came into office saying that you were going to release Epstein files. Release them. You know, you have Todd Blanche going up there, like, there's nothing more to see. No, this is. This is a mistake. We're not, you know, being like, so militant about it. Like, we're not releasing them. Why? There are more names in that files. And then I go to myself and I go, if it does get released, are we going to do something, or are we just going to keep having Congress, you know, calling these people over to do, you know, a hearing, to go under oath? Guys, all over the country, people are doing stuff. They're criminally investigating these people. We have Norway. I've been to Norway. People are criminally investigating these people. We are doing absolutely nothing here. It is so frustrating to know that we are the United States of America. We stand for justice. And it is. It is lacking here so hard that I sometimes wonder, I'm like, am I in South America? Because that South America, I could see it, but not here. So it is important for us. It is important for us to get all the names out there. And a lot of the survivors, because of the trauma they went through, they cannot remember a lot of things because trauma is a real thing. It's not something that is like, oh, okay, yeah. It's like, no, it just. It happens. Like, you know, there's a lot. Like, I'll give you a perfect example. I didn't know that Jeffrey Epstein Raped me. Me. One of the other girls had to tell me because when I first gave my statement to the FBI, I was like, no, he just did this. He sexually, you know, he sexually abused me. And I think it was like, when I came back from Virginia Giuffre's memorial. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I called my friend, I said, babe, I can't believe it. Jeffrey like, all these girls. And my friend was quiet on the phone, and she was like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. I'm like, I'm just. I'm really in shock. Like, I. I did not know that Jeffrey was all these girls. She's like, marina, I need to tell you something. And I Like, I. I don't know if you're ready for this, but you know that Jeffrey used to put you in, like. Like, put us in a row. And then he used to rape you and. And use you as a doll and say, like, this is what you need to do to be a good girl. And I was like, what? She's like, yeah. She's like, how could you not remember that? And then we sat there and we spoke about a little bit. I'm like, oh, my God. He me multiple times. How could I not remember that? So it just. It. That's what the body does to protect, you know, that's what the brain does to protect your mental health. It just blocks it off, and there's nothing that you could do about it.
- [87:42]
A
You know, I. I guess I'm just asking this in general. So, like, were there ever anything with Jeffrey Epstein or anything like that where you would go over and it wasn't. I don't know, there was like, nothing sexual. Like, it was almost like a party. So, like, for example. I'll give you an example in a different context. Like, all the stuff happened with. With P. Diddy, and everyone's like, oh, you know, the sexual stuff going on, and then there's people out there were like, oh, well, like, I went to a diddy party. But it wasn't like that kind of diddy party. It was like a. Just everyone was there hanging out, some press. Was there, like, was there ever something like that that you attended where it wasn't like, all your other experiences, or is pretty much everything in that world perverted?
- [88:21]
B
And so this is the thing with Jeffrey, when I was there and I would bring a friend, I had this one friend that he absolutely love, right? And, like, I always want to speak to her because we actually ended up being the bed with Ghislaine Maxwell. And I only got to know that I was in bed with Ghislaine Maxwell when I saw her in the news, because when he brought us to his room, he was like, I have a friend joining us now being, you know, 15, I think I was, or 16, I can't remember. I thought Ghislaine was, like, a girl like, our age, you know? And I'll tell you, like, a quick story. My daughter and I went on a cruise, and she was like, oh, my God, Mom, Ms. Whatever's here. And she told me this teacher was my age. And when she introduced me to her, I was like, like, oh, oh, hey, how are you? You know, and when I walked away, I looked at my girlfriend, and I was like, babe, she's like 50 years old. But, you know, because we don't. We just don't see it like that when you're young, you just, you know, literally, the teacher was like, 50. I'm 37. I was like, such a huge age difference. And, you know, because kids don't know the difference. You know, she's 12, going on 13. She sees, like, this teacher's kind of cool, so she thinks she's my age. So seeing Ghislaine, I. I thought Ghislaine was, like, somewhat my age. Sometimes I. You know, I remembered, like, the. The. The white sheets. And I remember all that, but I can't remember details. I know that they both r ped me and this other girl. And I know this girl is so traumatized, she will not get on the phone and talk about any of this.
- [89:52]
A
Wow.
- [89:53]
B
So sometimes I. I think that, you know, I want to remember everything, but then I don't want to remember everything.
- [90:02]
A
You know, I get what you're saying, so.
- [90:03]
B
And as for the parties that it goes, like, all of that, Jeffrey knew that the story of Queens girls, they were not going to be good in a party. Like I said to you, we grew up in the streets. You know, we were going to the Dollar store to get our lotions. We weren't going into, like, Victoria's Secret, you know, we were going to, like, the cheapest store where we could find clothes. You know, we didn't have it. We weren't using the money to go to the Louis Vuitton store. We didn't even know what Louis Vuitton was at the time. We didn't know what Prada was at the time.
- [90:35]
A
You know, you were just trying to survive.
- [90:37]
B
Yeah, we were going to Easy Pickens. I don't even know if they had Easy pickings out here. Like easy pickens is like so cheap. You know, it's like we'd get like five dollar outfits. You know, it's eight dollars. At the time you could. Now you can't, you know, so he knew, you know, he knew that.
- [90:52]
A
Were you afraid that like powerful people were gonna come after you by speaking out?
- [90:57]
B
Absolutely. When I first spoke out, I was staying in a hotel and I immediately got paranoid because my phone wasn't working and I had done something with ABC with Lindsay Davis and it came out the same day or the next day, I can't remember. And I looked at my comments, I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. Everybody hates me. Everybody's, Everybody's like, oh, you knew better not to go back. Oh, you were 14, you should have known better. Like, people were like so mean. And I ended up calling the producer and I was like, what's going on, Jim? And Jim is like, marina, listen, maybe you should reach out to the other survivors, like, and talk to them, maybe your therapist. And I'm like, no, no, no. But like, why are people acting like this? Like I was 14 at the time. Like, why aren't people blaming this like 50 year old something man? Like, why are they telling me I should have known better? You know? He goes, listen, just, just talk to your survivor sisters. He's like, this, this happens all the time. He's like, if, if, if it makes it any better, he's like, my wife looks really up to you. I thought it was cute. He was like, you know, he's like, I just want to tell you, she thinks you're really brave, you know, for coming out. And I was like, okay, okay, that makes me feel a little bit better. But it really stuck with me. I was like, oh my God, like people are attacking me, you know, and, and I don't understand what people think. You know, I feel like our, our brains are not fully developed until I think like 25. If you look up just on Google, like a simple research, like, your brain is not fully developed until 25.
- [92:29]
A
What changes do you think need to be made so that this doesn't happen to other children?
- [92:33]
B
Grooming is a big thing and I think that we need to be teaching and bringing awareness to as young as 5, 6 years old. And I know that people don't want to talk about it, but we talk to children about, you know, you know, gays and, you know, racism and how it's not okay and it's okay to like, what you want. Why are we talking to kids about, you know, older people that if they touch them inappropriately or if they talk to them inappropriately, we don't talk to kids. And we should be talking to kids as young as five years old. Because if you look at it, kids are getting groomed and they're getting, you know, you know, adults will say, oh, we're going to play a little game. I'm going to touch you here. And you know, kids don't know that. Kids don't know. At five, six years old, they think it's a game, you know, so we need to be teaching our children as young as 5, 6 years old as soon as they start understanding, hey, listen, if somebody speaks to you this way, it's not the right way. If somebody touches you here, it's not okay. And then we have the teens on Snapchat. You know, just in Coral Spring, we had a girl who went missing. She's 15 years old. Her friends dropped her off and she went to go meet with this man, which they didn't know. And she was missing for three weeks. They just found her in Texas. And I kid you not, if you look at the comment section, they're like, good for her. She should have known better. Good for her. She went there. Oh, she, she probably just wants more. Oh, she's a. She's a runaway. And the cops of Coral Springs were saying she was a runaway. She was not a runaway. She ended up being groomed by this man over the Internet. So it really begins on the Internet. Nobody goes like, hey, I have some candy for you. Come into my car. This is not what human trafficking and abuse looks like.
- [94:26]
A
Yeah, the Internet's the new candy in the car. Which is so interesting because, yeah, I mean, you hear the stuff happening that happened with Roblox and the children on Roblox and. Which is still happening.
- [94:36]
B
Still happening.
- [94:37]
A
You hear? I mean, that's even what happens. I've heard so many stories. So we started a Bible study here the first year, really, the first few months I started living in la and we had people from everywhere, mainly like social media influencers would come over that left social media and start and like, went on to only fans. And it kind of starts out as there is like, oh, you just post like cute pictures and like people and then it's like, oh, now take your shirt off. And then before you know it, like, a lot of these girls are not only doing onlyfans, but being paid to be escorts with older men and stuff like that. And you're just like, how does that even happen. And really the sad thing is the influx, like, I truly believe we weren't designed to have access to every human being on the planet and through phones. We do. And so that causes people to, I hate to use this language, but you have different options of people. What do you like, what do you don't like? Oh, you can reach out to this person in this state or this other country and you can talk to them here and do this and you can even make an account without your name on it. And you know, and it's so sad. And I've only heard a handful of stories just from people that we've interacted with at our old Bible study from years ago. And it's really sad, really heavy. And you're making an effort to kind of speak out for every, everyone that's gone through any sort of abuse or grooming, whether it be speaking up for other survivors of Epstein or people that have survived new things right now, or going through it.
- [96:08]
B
Yeah, because you know, you, the perpetrator will only stop when you speak, you know, and I think that. But when we talk about these things and we talk about how much the justice system has failed us and they continue to do it, it's disheartening, it's dehumanizing. And then we tell women and men, hey, speak about your abuse. Tell the authorities. And then we're like, oh, well, we kind of can't trust them because they just look at this girl. Oh, it's just a runaway. They don't want to investigate, they don't want to put the time. And we're almost normalizing if a 15 year old that she can make her own decisions or a 14 year old making her own decisions like, and that is insane. I feel like my daughter if when she is 18, I'm not, I'm going to be guiding her through that. Just because she's 18 and just because you have the right to make your own choices does not mean, you know that you're making the right choices. I feel like a 21 year old does not make the right choices. I feel like her parents need to be there and guide her. I think that, you know, society thinks, okay, well she's 18, she knows what she's doing. Guys, we have 50 year old women getting catfished on the Internet. Their brains are fully developed. So what, we're gonna blame this 50, 40 year old woman? No, she is getting groomed by a man. A man is lying to her, making her, you know, take off her clothes or, or how many women have you heard that are, are broke. They've, they sent, you know, they, they exceed their limit on their credit card. They pull out, you know, money, you know, from, from the bank. They pull out on investments. They, they do all sorts of things when they start meeting these men on the Internet. So what are we going to do? Blame a 14 year old? Blame a 50 year old? No, we need to bring awareness to all women, all men. It can happen to anybody at any age.
- [98:05]
A
Mm. You're a mother now and you've mentioned your daughter a few times. How has being a mother and seeing your daughter changed the way you view everything that's happened to you and how you parent and things like that?
- [98:19]
B
Yeah, it's a little tough, I gotta tell you, because, you know, we want to put our kids in a bubble, but it doesn't work that way, you know, And I think the Internet is what really pisses me off. The Snapchat and the TikTok. I feel like, you know, listen, I, I get it. Like, oh, you can't have Tick Tock or Snapchat until you're 16, okay? Parents are not abiding by that law. We need to make this more serious. We need to make this an actual law. Like, you will go to jail because, you know, these kids are creating accounts and it's. I, I gotta tell you, it's what I see sometimes in the conversations with the boys and even the girls. I'm like, oh, my God, this is, this is insane. Like, these kids now are like sending like naked pictures of, you know, emojis. You know, I think the Internet part is really where it's, it's really messing with this generation. It's almost like I, I have to, I have it on my phone and I control it. But, you know, you go to ChatGPT and they know how to figure out how to go around it. It. Chat, GPT, Tick Tock, Snapchat. It's just not helping our generation, you know, And I think that we need to be more serious about making these, you know, laws about having social media. It's almost like alcohol, right? Like you can't drink until the age of 21. You know, obviously some states are different. There's a reason for that, right? Because with drinking alcohol comes responsibility, right? You can't just be 16 and drinking and, you know, thinking it's okay. And I think it comes with the same thing with Internet, you know, with, with social media. I'm sorry, you need to be a certain age because it's a very dangerous. It's it's something that they created, and it's super dangerous. It's exactly what you said. Now you have the option to, you know, get access to whoever you want.
- [100:14]
A
Through everything that you've been through, have you turned to faith, God, spirituality, anything in between? Over the years? I know you've mentioned you grew up Orthodox and have been to Catholic church, evangelical church and everything, but has faith ever played a role in anything? Do you believe in a God? What does that look like right now?
- [100:31]
B
Of course I believe in God. You know, listen, I am the type of person that, you know, growing up, I said I was like, God, why me? Why me, God? Like, why are you doing this to me? Like, what did I ever do wrong? You know, because I was just a child. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. And I feel like. Like, you know, sometimes when you're like, oh, well, this happened to me, I feel like that's karma sometimes. Like, it does. What comes around goes around, right? So as a child, I was just always asking, like, why me? Why me? And today I'm like, oh, he gave me this so that I can change the narrative so I can turn something negative into positive. He gave me this because I could handle it. Because when we go and we start to talk to people, I talk to some of my friends. I'm talking like, whoa, you went through this. And when they hear my story, they're like, whoa, you went through. I'm like, no, you went through way worse than I did. You always think somebody goes through way worse, but he gives you really what you can handle, right? So I believe that God is with me all the time. Okay? I don't go to church all the. I don't go to church at all. I. I probably went to church on Easter. I'll go to Christmas. You know, I believe he's with me all the time. I don't believe I need to go to church. Church to have God with me or to believe in him or to have faith in Him. I believe that when I had my seizure, I was like, thank God. Thank God he had. He. He allowed me to have a seizure. And thank God he didn't take me away from this earth. Because I feel like he came and he was like, stop playing around, because if you continue, you are not going to be living this wonderful life that you. You know, and I'm scared of dying. That this is the irony behind it. Like, I'm so scared of dying. And I was, like, doing, you know, all this, you know, taking all these pills. So I really Believe that faith is so important. Hope is so important. If you don't have any of that, if you don't have loyalty, right to yourself and kindness, you know, these are all things that I think God wants us to have, you know? And I feel like if you don't cause any harm to anybody, you should be okay in life.
- [102:39]
A
You said you're scared of dying. What. What scares you about death?
- [102:42]
B
Yeah. I don't know why. It's so weird. And I'm going to tell you how that started. It started in Brazil. I was really young. And up till today, it's. It's. It's a. It's a little secret of mine. I'm scared of the dark.
- [102:53]
A
Okay?
- [102:54]
B
And it sounds so. It's so embarrassing, but I am. I like to talk about embarrassing things, so I am gonna say what I'm embarrassed to say all out. I am scared of the dark. I don't sleep in the dark, guys. I have to sleep with the TV on.
- [103:10]
A
That's okay.
- [103:11]
B
I don't know why. And it has to be, like, a little bit of a sound. I don't know why. When I. When my mom came to, you know, came to New York, I. My aunt didn't want me to sleep with her, and I always slept with my mom in the same bed, and my aunt didn't want that, and I had to sleep by myself. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm. I'm scared. And then I was like, well, I'm scared of dying. It just. It just came out of nowhere, and I just started being scared of dying, like, thinking about. You know, and I don't know why. This is something, like, at night, I can't control it. Like, I'll think about, like, oh, my God, what if I have cancer? Oh, my God, what if this might? Like, it's just, like, something that, you know, my mind is always running on that, and I don't know why.
- [103:56]
A
What do you think happens when we die?
- [103:57]
B
You know, I always. I always wonder that, too. You know, everybody's like, well, you know, if you do good, you go to heaven. I'm like, I kind of feel like that we. I feel like we are reborn again. I don't feel like. I feel like our bodies die, but our souls don't die, right? They're always. They're always here. Like, when we talk about Virginia Giuffre, like, we're always like, oh, my God, we feel her presence. We feel her here, you know? So I feel like that. That we are reborn into a Different body, you know, and that's why when I was growing up, I was asking God, why me? Why me? I was like, man, I was probably like a really terrible person in my past life, you know, and maybe that's not what it is, but this is something that I believe. Do I truly believe that all the way? No. I still question myself about what really happens to us when we. When we pass away, you know?
- [104:48]
A
What do you think about Jesus?
- [104:50]
B
I can't say much about him. I know that, you know, I. I've never really sat down and. And read a whole Bible and understood the Bible, right. I've only can say what I've watched in movies, and I don't think that's pretty accurate. Right? And also being baptized Orthodox, it's so quick. It's like, hey, listen, you do this, you do that, you're bus. You do that. You know, that's. That's all it is. You. You dunk in the water three times and you are baptized. It's not like the Catholic Church, like when I grew up with my grandmother. Like, you have to, you know, like my cousin right now, she is going for her second. I don't know what. And I'm going to Brazil for it. But there's. There's, like Bible school. There's, you know, there's. There's everything. It's not just like you get dunked in the water and that's it, you're baptized. You. You have to know the Bible. You have to know the story behind it. So I think that I. I don't know much to say because I don't know much about Jesus. And I don't want to say anything bad about him or anything good that I don't know, but I think he was. I think he was. What, a carpenter, right?
- [105:51]
A
Yeah, he was a carpenter.
- [105:52]
B
He's a carpenter. And he always, you know, he was. He. He seemed like he was a very giving person and he believed in everybody. And no matter if you were a bad person or if you were a good person, he was still going to be there for you. Right? And he. I feel like he didn't. He didn't want any. Any foul intentions or wished anybody bad, even though people betrayed him, right? And he knew about that people were going to betray him. And I think he still wasn't the type of person was like, he still was able to carry that burden by himself and not blame other people for what they were doing wrong because he knew that that wasn't his job. It's almost like what I feel now like sometimes I feel like when I'm in between things with, you know, just personal things and I'm like, oh man, like this really sucks, you know, like, why is it that I'm such a fair person and I'm such a, like, loyal person? Why aren't other people like this? Like, I'm so, I'm so loyal and I'm so fair. It just doesn't work like that. Like, you have to play your part and you have to play your role in this life. And how other people want to play, that's up to them.
- [107:06]
A
I became a Christian when I was 17. I had awful depression and anxiety for years and I thought the only way to get the pain to go away was to take my life. And so When I was 17, I went to have my last meal at a Waffle House. And I've never done drugs or alcohol before. I had a supernatural encounter with Jesus. He stopped me from taking my life. And leading up to that moment, a few months before I looked into other religions, I tried different things. I was a people pleaser. I tried to find my identity in sports. And it was like there wasn't enough self help books that could help what was going on in my brain and in my heart. And I remember thinking, if we live in a broken world and I can't even fix my broken heart, I could never work my way to perfection. You know, that idea of doing good things to get to heaven is involved in every other religion. But Jesus actually says something total opposite. We believe that Jesus is God as Christians. And so, so we believe that he lived a perfect, sinless life. And the same way that we deserve justice for doing wrong, the justice was inflicted on him, but he did no wrong. So his death on the cross was like him taking my punishment, putting hope and trust in the fact that what Jesus did was perfect and enough and just to pay for all my wrongdoing, hope in him that from 17 till now I'm only 22, has given me life, purpose, peace, joy. And now it's like, oh, is it going to be all black when I die or is it going to be, you know, for me I'm like, no. Like I get to be with Jesus not because of anything I can do, but because of what he has done. And that's heaven, because he is light, he is love, he is everything in between. You know, the Bible talks about the God of Christianity being like a father. If you were ever to look into Christianity, do you think that, do you think through everything you've been through, you would have a hard time looking at God as a father because of the things that you experienced or.
- [109:08]
B
No, I think that at one point when I, you know, everybody has sex. Everybody has, right? We all do. And when I did start having sex with, you know, my boyfriends at the time when it was like a, you know, know a time where, like when I first met my. My ex husband, when we started to have sex, I was like, why is this? When I started to have. With my ex husband, I was like, oh, my God. I was like, everything I'm doing is so sinful. Everything is like, this is a sin. Because I grew up with my stepfather and all these other perpetrators doing things to me that I thought, now that I finally can do it and I'm enjoying it, it's a sinful thing. I wouldn't have a hard time accepting Jesus as my father because I never had a father in my life, right? And so today I feel like even when I want to love a man, right? Like, I wanna. I wanna be vulnerable. It's so hard for me to be vulnerable. It's so hard for me to fully give in and say, okay, well, this is my life and I need to control everything. It's so bad because when I'm not in control, I don't feel good about it. And my friend always tells me, she's like, marina, you need to stop. You have a problem. You have a problem where you feel like you need to control things and not everything needs to be controlled. So it's something that I think I deal with, like, being vulnerable, like, showing to be vulnerable. And I think that's why sometimes when I talk about my story and people are like, oh, my God, you're so strong. You're so this. And I'm like, because I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to cry because I think it's a sign of weakness, which is not. I know it's not, but in my head it's like, oh, my God. People are going to think I'm weak because I had to grow up my whole life showing this person, like, I'm. I'm strong. I can take care of myself, I can take care of my mom. I can do anything. I can. I can, you know? And my mom also was like, you'll never be anything. You'll just be a better version of me. So it was like, oh, my God, now I have to work three times as hard, you know, So I don't think I would have a problem with that.
- [111:18]
A
Yeah, I remember thinking that I had to fix myself. And there's this idea that you have to fix yourself before coming to God. It's like, oh, I got to clean myself before I approach God. But it's actually the total opposite. It's like Jesus loves the most broken version of myself because that's, you know, the night I went to Waffle House, I was the most sinful, lust filled, jealous, prideful, selfish version of myself. But I was the most honest. And that allowed Jesus to move in my life because, I mean, he himself says in the Gospel of Matthew, he says, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. And the reward for me being honest with God was getting him. And, you know, even when I look at the Bible, like, there were so many things I didn't understand. Like, like before I was a Christian, I got exploited to pornography when I was in the fifth grade. And so that led me to making a lot of mistakes and having struggles with sexual sin. And then I remember reading the Bible and knowing Jesus and waiting for marriage to have sex was like, it wasn't a restrictive thing. It was like a beautiful thing because it was me trusting that the way that God designed it was what was best for my life and not what Bryce thought. And trusting God was so interesting and new because I was like, I'm the Lord of my life. I know what, what's best for Bryce. And I'm like, that 17 year old Bryce knows what's best for Bryce's life. That's so stupid in every aspect. But. And even this wrestle of like, there's even times now that like, trying to be a husband and I think I know what's best for me and my wife and I make a decision. I'm like, I didn't consult God and all of these things and everything in between. And you know, in these years of being a mom and you know, running your nonprofit and speaking up for survivors and everything in between, I really hope and pray that, man, maybe Jesus can come into your life and be this beautiful thing and you can know him and experience him and he's so full of hope and love and everything in between. And I experienced a lot of hypocrisy too. I know you mentioned it earlier on about y' all drinking at church camp or whatever, and the people were like, okay, I saw a lot of hypocrisy too, but you know, that's, that's not the heart of God got so much better and awesome and, and I pray that you get to experience that. One day.
- [113:33]
B
And, well, I, I think that we all here in this life, in this world right now, we need that. You know, I think that there's so much I don't want to say mean. I think I want to say just people that don't, that are not knowing the difference between right and wrong, right? And then that people want to get ahead without going through, through the process of getting to that finish line, and they just want to skip through it, right? And then they just do all these, these terrible things that hurt them and hurt other people. So I think that, yes, I, I, I, I sometimes, you know, like you said, oh, I become jealous, you know, and then I'm like, no, no, no, no, this is not, this is not good. Like, I don't want to be like that, you know, if I don't like somebody and, you know, we all don't like somebody, right? I don't, I would never want to wish bad upon them. I, I don't want to wish bad upon anybody, you know, but it's like, oh, but why don't I like this person? And then I have to go back and go, it's okay. It's just something about them that I'm not okay with. It doesn't mean that I, I shouldn't like them. Let me get to know this person a little bit better, and then I can and say, okay, well, this person doesn't have the best character, but, however, I don't want to have friction, so let's just be peaceful with one another, you know? So there are certain things that I feel like this is what God would want. This is what Jesus would want, you know? So I kind of understand some of the things that are, that may be in the Bible. I just don't know the Bible so well. But maybe one day I'll come to your Bible study.
- [115:16]
A
Do you deal? That sounds good.
- [115:17]
B
You gotta invite me, though.
- [115:18]
A
Deal. Yeah, I'll invite you.
- [115:21]
B
I'll come.
- [115:21]
A
That'd be epic.
- [115:22]
B
I'll come.
- [115:23]
A
Before we actually close the episode, can you tell everyone a little bit about your nonprofit and what you're chasing now and everything that you're doing in that realm?
- [115:31]
B
So what I want to do is I want to do a nonprofit, and I want to do it in Brazil. And why, why is that? Like, people are like, why do you want to go to Brazil? And listen, I may not even be able to change the culture in Brazil while I'm still alive, but I do hope that my daughter will. Will. I can pass that on to my daughter and I hope that that generation will have a totally different mindset. Right. Why do I. Why do I want to do it in Brazil? If anybody looks up, the trafficking in Brazil is insane.
- [116:01]
A
I believe it.
- [116:02]
B
The mothers sell their daughters to politicians. You go in the slums. You ever been to Brazil?
- [116:09]
A
No, no, I told you earlier that I wanted to go.
- [116:12]
B
So, you know, you have the Christ there.
- [116:15]
A
Yeah. One of the seven wonders of the world.
- [116:19]
B
And there's a lot of slums. Okay. And when we say like, not even the police is allowed to go to the slums, it's a real thing. You're not allowed to. It's not anybody that can walk into a slum. And they have their own world in there and they have their own laws in there. And the women sometimes that live there will have like the same, they'll have different fathers, different husbands, and they're all, they're all a family there and there's nothing they can do about it. And some of them don't want to get pregnant and some of them are being raped every day and they are continuously getting pregnant. So there are women that I have recently come across, they'll go there, they will get condoms, they'll get, you know, birth control pills and give it to the girls. But now if the men find out that these women are doing that, they will be killed. And so will the girls be killed. The trafficking, the human trafficking, the raping in Brazil, and it's not only with women, with men and with animals. It's really insane. So I do hope that I think by next year I want to start a nonprofit and I want to start in, I think, the worst possible place. It's called Manaus. It's very close to the Amazon forest and it's where all the trafficking happens.
- [117:46]
A
Wow.
- [117:46]
B
And it's uncontrolled and it's something that. It's going to be very, very hard. But I want to really make that culture change over there. And I want people to think of it like, it's not okay for a 15 year old girl. It's not okay for a 15 year old girl to be with a 40, 50 year old man. Yeah, it's not okay. You know, we need to change that and we need to change how the women also think. You know, women think. Excuse me? Women think like, oh, okay, well, you know, if I'm with like this guy, then like, I don't have to work and I don't have to do anything. That's not how it's supposed to be. You know, you gotta Create your own life, and then you wanna partner up with somebody that also has created their life. And then when you guys are together, you put that two together and you can create something beautiful.
- [118:36]
A
Wow. I gotta ask this question before. Before we close here. Just came to my mind. You know, you talked about Epstein's mansion, seeing pictures on the walls and in the. In that waiting area and everything. I just gotta ask, like, did. Was he ever involved in any demonic, satanic stuff? Did you ever see anything like that? Like, would he say he talked to the devil? Or, like, did. Did you just ever hear Jeffrey or see him do anything demonic?
- [119:05]
B
I never seen him do it. When those files dropped and we saw that, I couldn't sleep for a long time. And that's one of the seven pages that I was telling you with the allegations. When I saw that they were eating children. And I was really in shock. I did not know any of that. Right. And then, you know, I went into a full rabbit hole and I started to see things that really bothered me. And when I spoke to the other survivors, they have not encountered that they did not know that. I think there's only one survivor that is saying that she is aware of that. And I think she was in the Zorro Ranch.
- [119:49]
A
That was the one in New Mexico.
- [119:51]
B
Yep.
- [119:51]
A
And they just. They just did some stuff publicly about that, like, about the bodies.
- [119:56]
B
It was a whole movement. But now they stopped it. You see how it's not anywhere in the news. Nobody's talking about it anymore. See, like, it stopped. Nobody's talking about it. They started. They wanted to investigate it. They wanted to, like, go investigate the backfield or whatever. It was, like, where they say they buried girls and they buried, you know, these babies. And now what happened? Nobody even knows. Right. It's just, like, off the radar. Right. And we did not know that. But a lot of the girls say, wow, Jeffrey was so charismatic. He was so nice. He was this. He was that. I grew up in the street, so I think there's a gift growing up in the street. And I think some people can agree with me. Sometimes we can read people. We can tell right away if they're a good person or if they're a bad person. Right. And if they have some sort of Satan kind of ways. Right. Jeffrey always had a look. He was nice to us. Obviously, what he did was not nice to us, but he was a nice person. He wasn't, you know, he didn't do any of these things to us, but he always had a look in his face where he looked like the devil. And if you look at some of his interviews, they had asked him a question about something about if he was the devil himself. And the way he answered it with the smirk on his face and the way he winked his eye, it was almost like, oh, my God, you are the devil. You know, so. And then when you also see there's a video of him going, like. But he's, like, looking at his mouth. In Brazil, they had a reporter, a journalist look into it. And that's from. From that pimple or that. That thing that he got on his lips. That's from eating human flesh. That's why he was, like, on the camera and, like, worried about it. That's from eating excessive human flesh.
- [121:55]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [121:56]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [122:00]
A
Your story is heavy. You're doing hard work. I don't even have words to describe everything you've been through, everything in between. But I admire you. I respect you. I think the world of you. I would really love to pray for you before we close because you've been through a lot of heavy stuff, and you're continuing to do some heavy work, and I know it can get hard, and I would just love to pray for you to close us, if that's okay.
- [122:23]
B
I would love that. I would love that.
- [122:25]
A
Cool.
- [122:26]
B
You also got to teach me how to pray correctly. Is there a correct way to pray? I don't think there is.
- [122:30]
A
Right, There's. You want to pray Jesus, right? We ask Jesus, and. And the Bible would say. We like to. It says, enter his courts with praise and thanksgiving. So I always just like to thank God for who he is and thank him for everything he's done and then glorify him, make our requests known to Him. So we're gonna pray for you and talk for God to be with you. I always try to make, like, things for me to be the last thing that I pray for, just personally. And then I always thank him. And then we ended in prayer. But just being honest, there's no, like, formula or anything. It's just.
- [122:58]
B
Yeah. Because sometimes I do talk to him, and I'm like, I wonder if I'm doing it the right way.
- [123:03]
A
Sometimes my prayers look like God. I'm really upset right now.
- [123:06]
B
Yeah.
- [123:06]
A
And I'm talking to him like a friend.
- [123:08]
B
That's okay. Okay. So I'm not that far off, but I also am thankful. I do thank him every day for waking up and being alive and, you know, having my heart. Right.
- [123:16]
A
Amazing.
- [123:17]
B
Yeah.
- [123:17]
A
Yeah.
- [123:18]
B
I would love for you to pray for me.
- [123:19]
A
All right, let's do it. Jesus thank you so much for today. God thank you for Marina thank you for her life and thank you for allowing her to come be with us in the studio and just share her story about everything she's been through so boldly, so passionately with courage. God we thank you for who you are. We thank you for your word and we thank you for your death and resurrection on the cross. Lord Jesus would you just bless Marina with safety, protection and wisdom. God discernment to know who to talk to and who to stay away from, who to partner with and who not to. God what doors to say yes to and what doors to say no to. God we thank you for the work that you're doing in her life. Would you just continue to be with her? Would you continue to guide her? Lord Jesus would you encounter her and send more Christians her way to show your love to her And God we just thank you for who you are. We thank you for this day in Jesus name amen Amen.