← The Bryce Crawford Podcast
The Bryce Crawford Podcast
Christian Dating ft. Jonathan Pokluda (EP 94)
01:10:00
In this episode, Bryce interviews Pastor Jonathan Pokluda on Dating as a Christian.
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- [00:00]
Bryce Crawford
I have a huge announcement before you guys continue to watch this episode of the podcast. Guys. May 18th. We are doing our second live podcast show in my home state, Atlanta, Georgia. We're going to be at the Cobb Energy Center May 18 for worship and a powerful word. Guys, I am so excited to be back in the same city that God took me from death to life. If you guys want to come out to the Hometown live podcast show May 18, go to Ticketmaster and search up Bryce Crawford and get your tickets today. Guys. I'm looking forward to see you guys on May 18th. Go to Ticketmaster. Search Bryce Crawford. Get your tickets to the live podcast show May 18th. Love you guys. Now enjoy the episode. What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Bryce Crawford podcast. I'm Bryson. Today I'm with an awesome guest pastor Father. I would call you mentor of mine, Jonathan Puda. How are you doing, dude?
- [00:55]
Jonathan Puda
Pumped to be here, man. Thanks for having me over.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah. Thanks for coming. Thanks for making the flight down, dude.
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Jonathan Puda
Love it. Absolutely. Thanks for introducing me to Moses.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah, he's the best.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
He likes licking your ears.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah, man. I just got attacked by a miniature golden doodle, so.
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Bryce Crawford
He loves you. That's rare. Like, I. He loves people, but, like, he really loved you.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah. I don't maybe, like, I have, like, syrup in my ears or something. He was going to town.
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Bryce Crawford
He likes that.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah, man.
- [01:25]
Bryce Crawford
Well, I'm excited about today's episode. I mean, I've never done an episode on the topic of dating and what it means to be a Christian and finding a significant other spouse, things like that. And so I'm super pumped to just pick your brand. I'm going to try to ask, like, as many questions across the spectrum of dating as possible.
- [01:43]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [01:44]
Bryce Crawford
What. Whatever the general public would say about it. Christianity, what Christianity says about it, how to go about it. I. I think. I think one of the first questions on my heart is so many people always wonder what it means to be equally yoked.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
What. What? What does it mean to be equally yoked in a relationship? That's romantic.
- [02:03]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. So second Corinthians 6:14 is where that comes from, says, do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. And so sometimes people are like, do we have to be the same level of spiritual maturity? Do we have to both be Calvinists, or do we have to both be Reformed? Or we have to both be Armenian? Or do we have Baptist or Methodist or Catholic? What. What is that? Is that what that means? And. And the Context of the scripture is really that a believer would marry a believer, the context, or even do business with the believer. I can tell you, one time, pre ministry, I had went in into business with somebody who was not a Christian. They were a good person, they were a moral person, but they were not a Christian. And it was going well until it wasn't. And all of a sudden, he stopped answering my phone calls and ran off with a bunch of money. And I never heard from him again. And I, I thought about that scripture. And then Bryce, I would just say some of the most difficult situations I'm in pastorally. So I'm a, I'm a pastor. So so much of what I do is pastoral care, or you would say biblical counseling. And some of the most difficult situations I'm in are someone in a marriage where they were a Christian, but they married someone who wasn't a Christian. And they, they either didn't see that as important or they hoped that they would change post marriage. You do not want to marry potential, meaning you don't want to marry someone hoping that they become someone else. That's a, that's a recipe for disaster. You want to marry them understanding their flaws, understanding their, their fallen nature, understanding their wiring and their personality, and say, hey, they would be a great match for me. We complement each other well, and we're going to do ministry together for the rest of our life. We're going to have children and raise those children to know God. We're going to disciple our community, disciple in our home. And so we would make great partners. So really what a Christian marriage is, it's, it's a strengthening of ministry. You're, like, looking for a, a ministry partner. And so if you marry a non believer, so much of the ministry that you're doing is going to be to them. And it's a really hard life. And the scripture speaks specifically to this. In First Peter 3, it says, you know, if you're, if your husband is not a believer, to try to win him over with your good deeds in the way that you love him and care for him and serve him. That's a tough life, man. Yeah, that's, that's really challenging. That they would see grace through your acts of service toward them. That's really challenging. And so, you know, I, I would say that you should be someone who's radically pursuing Jesus and find someone who is radically pursuing Jesus. I did a podcast recently, and they were like, yeah, but that doesn't give, you know, people who aren't radically pursuing Jesus a Lot of hope. I'm like, jesus is our hope. The, the good news is the difference of someone who's not radically pursuing Jesus and someone who is, is a decision. It's like right now you can be hearing this and saying, okay, you know what? I want to turn my life around. I want to start running hard after God. I believe there's a God. I believe 20, 25 years ago, there was a carpenter born in Bethlehem, a town that you would have never heard of, except he was born there. He lived in Nazareth, a city that you would have never known about, except he lived there. And, and every atheist you know acknowledges him by the date on their iPhones. Because this carpenter born in Bethlehem reset time. And you say, if that's true, if he died and he showed back up, then what else am I going to do with my life but chase hard after him and, and know him and make him known?
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah. So when, I guess when I think of, like, dating relationships, like in high school, I know people would date people if they were physically attracted to them. Is it wrong to be physically attracted to someone? As a Christian trying to pursue dating, I feel like if, in the world we live in, right. If you were gonna, if you see a girl or you see a guy across the room.
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Jonathan Puda
Right.
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Bryce Crawford
I feel like my first thought is, you're not going, oh, snap, man, their heart's awesome.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
You can't really see their heart. And you also don't really know them personally, but, but also, too, you get old and wrinkly, and my tattoos are not going to look the same in 30 years, and I'm gonna look really old.
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Jonathan Puda
Blotches on your arms.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah, just like a Chipotle bag over here. But, but I, I, I feel it sometimes. Sometimes when I think about it, like, like with my girlfriend, I'm like, man, I love her heart. I love her character, but I also think she's so beautiful. Is it wrong for me to feel that way?
- [06:43]
Jonathan Puda
No, of course not. And so God, you know, God's a creative God. One of the first things that he does, or the first thing that he does is create. The first thing that we see in the scriptures. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, so he's creative. He cares about aesthetics. We see that in nature. If you put a leaf under a microscope, you see these, these bricks of cells stacked on top of each other. If you look into space, I mean, one of the most, the most beautiful things that I've seen are just the creations of God. The ocean, a beautiful river, a Stream, a grassy field, a starry night. I'm a big sunset guy. Like our most beautiful paintings are knockoffs of God's original. So he cares about aesthetics.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
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Jonathan Puda
And he made us, he wired us in such a way that, that we would find different things attractive. We know that when, you know, Jacob saw Rachel, that he's just like, whoa. Like there is something amazing about this woman. Now here's what I want to say right here. That's descriptive, not prescriptive. So that's the Bible describing something that's happened, not prescribing it in that, hey, you must be attracted to. Because Proverbs 31:30 says charm is deceitful and beauty is fleeting. But a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. And so you do not need to feel bad for being attractive. But you do need to understand two things. One, it's highly overrated because it's a depreciating asset. And like you said, gravity is going to take its toll. I ask stadiums full of people, hey, how many of you are attracted to an 85 year old? And almost no one raises their hand but by the grace of God, at some point, hopefully your spouse is going to be 85 years old and you think, oh yeah, but they're, I'm married to them. It's like, listen, you're still going to find the 23 year old attractive. Yeah, okay. Wrinkles, gravity, you know, all kinds of things happen in our bodies as I, as I age, I can just tell you, like it's, I mean I look at Monica and I's my honeymoon pictures and I'm just like, wow, we were, we, we really had it going on and it's like, you know, now I'm middle aged man, my hair's turning gray and I don't, I don't like the gym as much as I once did. And, and so that happens for everybody. And we, you know, we're so naive. We think, no, I'm always going to stay hot. Yeah, I'm going to get Botox. Like, no, that's weird. You're gonna, that's, that's gonna be weird. At some point we need to make aging a great thing again because the proverb says that we're to esteem it. But the other thing that I would say is it's it. We way overvalue physical attraction. And so if you're looking for a spouse, I would say consider your hand because this is helpful to me. You want to make sure you're going the same direction. Okay, that's the second Corinthians 6:14. To not be unequally yoked. Okay, so we're going the same direction. We both love in God. We're chasing hard after God to this finger. This is something that you can communicate pretty dramatically with in, in a gesture in our culture. And so you can think about that as communication. Do we communicate? Do we speak a common language? Do we understand each other? This finger, your ring finger. That's, that's commitment. Are we committed? Are they in and out of relationships? Or are they dating a different girl on Tuesday than a Wednesday? Or, you know, are they, do they understand what commitment is? This your opposable thumb. You got to have your thumb to pick something up. Like without your thumb, these fingers aren't, aren't as helpful. So you have to have somebody that complements you, that they're strong where you're weak, they're weak where you're strong. You guys together make a great team. That's, that's your thumb and then your pinky. That's physical attraction. That's pink. That's chemistry. I would say this is the one that we put in first place. I'd say it has a place, it's just not first place. And in fact, if you got to lose a finger, like, if I, I said, hey, right now the only way you're going to live is if I get to take off a finger. That'd be weird. But if I did say that, you're probably going to say, ah, go ahead and take the pinky. You know, that's, that's the one that, the least important of the five. And what we've done is we've taken that one in fifth place and we put it in first place. And the reason we've done that is because I think pornography, it's rewired our brains in such a way that, that guys are trying to find the Mother Teresa missionary, you know, serves at her church, but looks like a porn star. And, and I, I, I don't think we really understand how far porn has carried us and, and set us up for failure. That guys are discontent, they're afraid to commit, they're fearful. They're not asking girls out, they're hiding behind screens. And, and I, I think it's really created quite a, a pretty desperate dating landscape today.
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Bryce Crawford
Dang. I never even thought about porn having that bit much damage on people. But then, you know, I, when I was a, I remember when I was in the sixth grade, I got exploited to pornography on a beach. It was like through A meme. But that was my introduction to pornography and then battled an addiction to pornography. And then right when I became a Christian, it was weird because there's some things that have stopped cold turkey and some things that haven't. That was actually one of the things that stopped cold turkey the moment I became a Christian, praise God. But I didn't realize how much it jacked me up up here because then I had to rewrite my definition of love. My pastor told me one time, because I, I, I think this is, this happens a lot today. We say love is the feeling.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
Like the butterflies. Oh, you give me butterflies. And so because I give you. But because you give me butterflies, then I'm going to show up. Then I'm gonna show up. Sorry. If you give me butterflies, then I'm gonna choose to be committed to you.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
And then after I choose to be committed to you, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna show up for you, which is.
- [12:44]
Jonathan Puda
Actually selfish, not selfless. It's like, like I'll ask people, what, what do you love? When I, before I do a wedding, sometimes I'll say, what do you love about them? And they'll say, I love the way he makes me feel. Well, that's, that's about you. When biblical love is actually sacrificial love. John 21, Peter John's Jesus says to Peter, do you love me? Do you agape me? And Peter says back, I do phileo you, I do love you like a brother. And Jesus says, yeah, but do you love me sacrificially? And he says, hey, I do love you like a brother. We're called in marriage to Ephesians 5, lay our lives down for our wives. Everybody gets hung up on the submission. Yeah, like wives, submit to your husbands, which the Bible says multiple times. First Peter 3, Ephesians 5, Colossians 1, or Colossians 3, so that wiser to submit to their husbands. But it says, husbands, sacrifice your life for your wife.
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Bryce Crawford
That's a big deal.
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Jonathan Puda
As Christ did the church. I would argue a bigger deal, you know?
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
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Jonathan Puda
Like if, if a man is like, hey, I'm, I'm going to put your desires first at every turn. And so I, yeah, I think what you're looking for is someone that you can love selflessly and be loved by them selflessly, not so much about what they make you feel.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah, yeah. I, I don't think feeling. And I think you're communicating this too. I don't think feeling's a bad thing at all. Not at all but when it's first. Because when I look at the gospels, Jesus doesn't say, oh, well, you make me feel awesome.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
He's like, choosing to love us because despite. Despite the choice, he knows that people are going to reject him even after he offers the greatest love sacrifice of all time.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
And then that choice, because he chooses to love us, he shows up for us in the highs and the lows because he walks for us through the valley of the shadow of death. We fear no evil, and he's with us in the highs. And I feel like the moments that I show up for my girlfriend, I make the choice to love Maddie because I do. I show up for in the highs and lows. Even the low moments I show up for, it stirs my affections for Maddie. It like, stirs that feeling, I guess. Something that I have a hard time understanding. I bet a lot of people are battling this right now about, about dating, relationships. The. The charm aspect. You know, you can fake charm, you can't fake character. Yeah, but how do you discern charm.
- [14:58]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
Versus someone that has character but has flaws?
- [15:01]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
Because I'm broken and every human being's broken. And I find myself as a man in a relationship saying sorry a lot.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
And making a lot of mistakes.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
How do you discern whether you're. Oh, they're just faking it or they're just broken?
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Jonathan Puda
That's such a great question, brother. So I'm. I'm kind of a car guy. Like, I like cars. And. And I'm a gift guy. Like, that's my love. Language is gifts. And. And so one day my. This is before I was in ministry. My wife wanted like, a suburban. And again, this is when I was in corporate world. And I, I was like, man, I want to get her something really nice. And I found this Cadillac Escalade. It's black, peanut butter, interior is beautiful. And. And I, like, I give. Gave it to her in this really creative way. I put it on the side of the road with for sale sign. I knew she would see it and be like, oh, what about that? And I'm like, oh, we can't afford that. And. And it's hers. And you know, all the things. And, And I, I had gotten a great price on it. And I got so caught up in the. The good deal. Like, this is such a good deal that I didn't go slow in the terms. I didn't have my mechanic look at it or anything. I just like, man, I found a great deal. We can afford it. She's gonna love it. I'm gonna surprise her. So I gave her that. That Escalade. And I remember, like, the first time she was driving it, like, something started rattling in the dash. And then, like, the dash fell off, and then something broke in the engine. And then we had to take it in, and there was something wrong with the. The rear end. And all this stuff started going wrong with this car. And. And it was just, like, one thing after the other. And so this deal, all of a sudden was not a good deal. Like, it was shiny, it was bright. It looked good. It was Escalade. It had the Cadillac symbol on it. It looked sharp. But, man, something was really messed up with that car. And what I didn't do, Bryce, is I didn't check carfax. I didn't check the vehicle history report. I didn't. I didn't realize that it had been wrecked three times. I didn't realize that it was involved in a flood. I didn't realize that it had seven owners. I didn't know all of these things that happened to this car, right? And so what I would say is, when I was. I was, you know, in my day, you call like a player. I was like, such a player. Before I knew Jesus. I found so much identity in what the opposite sex thought of me. And I memorized. This was my. So this is embarrassing, but this is my game. Back in the day, it was like. I'd say. I was like, but softwood light through yonder window breaks. It is the east and Juliet is the sun. Arise for sun and kill. The amusement is already sick and pale with grief. That thou her made our far more fair than she. Be not her mason. She is invisible. Vesta libraries, but sick and green and number fools to wear it. Cast it off. It is my lady. Oh, it is my love. I could. I could quote Shakespeare, and that was like. That was the game I'd run, man. And you know how I knew that? Because I was in a play once Upon a Time, where I learned it. And so I'm acting. And a guy who really likes you can act. And a girl who really likes you can act. But what they cannot do is fake their reputation. So if you check the. The history report, if you're talking to exes, like, if you. If you really want to know if someone's good, that if they're like, hey, you should talk to my ex boyfriend. Like, let him tell you about me. You should talk to my ex girlfriend. Let her tell you. Like, if you find that person, then they're like, okay, they're dating in such a way that they're leav people better than they found them. That's a God honoring character trait. And so here, now I want to be careful because if Monica checked my history report, she's going to see a lot of carnage, a lot of baggage, a lot of brokenness. Yeah, like my, my history was full of brokenness. And so you want to make sure that their repentance is more notorious than their rebellion. That everyone's like, oh man, she's changed. Yeah, she used to be a prostitute, but man, she's been following Jesus for a good two and a half years. She's discipling girls, she's sitting with them. And I use prostitute because it's a biblical word. He used to be a, a pimp or he used to be a drug dealer or he used to be a, a terrible human being. A pornographer, a, a porn star. Right. He used to be a porn star. But he's been following Jesus for two and a half years. He's being discipled. He's discipling guys. And so it's like I've, I've bought vehicles, to use that metaphor before. I bought vehicles with a salvage title. I bought vehicles that were involved in big accidents or terrible wrecks or flooding or whatever it is, but I only buy them after they've been on the road for a length of time and been running well. And so when their repentance is as notorious as their rebellion, then I think, you know, they're dateable.
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Bryce Crawford
Whoa, I like that. I've never really thought about it that way. Yeah, I, I, yeah, because I just think about that. How, how do you do? I guess something that I struggle with is because I know myself. You know yourself better than yourself. I don't know if we're just our biggest enemies and our biggest battle is our brain. Yeah, maybe I'm just too hard on myself. But how can I have a good, how can, how can we as, as people have a good, healthy perspective of us acknowledging and being humble of like when we're wrong?
- [20:26]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
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Bryce Crawford
But also not like giving ourselves a hard time because then there might be someone on, on the other side of this listening. That's like, dang, I'm, I'm the guy with the, the salvage title, the, the baggage and then the self worth, self reflection on themselves, not about how they view the other person. Their self reflection is, well, I'm not good enough for this. I don't deserve it. How do we have a healthy perspective of ourselves in the midst of our brain brokenness.
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah. I think a bigger problem is that people are sitting in their brokenness. Meaning I'm not healed from pornography. I'm continuing like a dog just vomit to, to give in to pornography. And I would say, man, you gotta get well, you gotta find freedom. Now if you're in this place where you're just struggling to forgive yourself, I would say stop, because God has forgiven you. He says in Second Corinthians 5:19, he's no longer counting your sins against you. In Romans 8:1, it says, Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. And Malachi says that he delights to show you mercy. Like what God does for fun is he shows people mercy. It's what God does for fun. It's like what he enjoys doing. And, and so it seems that God loves, loves, loves to write a story of redemption on people who've made really bad decisions. And Genesis 50, 20, what the enemy's meant for evil, God uses for our good. Romans 8, 28. We know that in all things God is working together for the good of those who love him, who've been called according to his purpose. And so God flips the script. Like he takes the bad and he uses it for good. When we bring it to him, we're like, hey, we need help. Like, can you take this? He'll use your story, he'll take your mess and make it your message and even your ministry if you'll let him. So don't sit in shame because that's, that's Satan. Like, Satan will use shame. Like, you know, we, we talked about this, but I've studied, been studying spiritual warfare for the past three years. And one of the biggest tools that the enemy uses is shame to keep us in that. And so man, I would say to guys, if you desire marriage, listen, guys, like lean in on this. If you're, if you're a man right now listening, you're of age to be married, you're. You desire marriage, then I would say ask out the godliest woman you know and, and shoot your shot and, and give it a chance. And, and ladies, if a God fearing man asks you out, give him a chance. Cuz I, I can't tell you how many marriages I've done, how many weddings I've done where the wife is, is telling me I was not at all attracted to him at first, but I got to know him and like, and now he's the greatest thing you know, and I hear that all the time and so if a God fearing man asks you out, give him a chance. And, and men ask out the godliest woman that you know, even if she doesn't, she's not your epitome of attraction is she's not what you thought. Like give heart a chance because you know, 1st Samuel 16, God says, Hey, I do not look at the outward appearance. I look at the heart. Ladies asked me, I do a Friday Q and A every Friday. I, I get answer questions on this. And ladies are like, hey, this super God fearing man asked me out. He's, he's so great. He's an incredible leader. Everybody loves him and respects him, but I don't find him attractive. And I'm like, you don't find godliness attractive? You don't find leadership capabilities attractive? Like, what do you find attractive? And it's, and if, and if it is only, well, six pack abs, you know, six figure salary, you know, pre med. If it's only these things that Hollywood told you to find attractive, I would just make sure that it's the scripture that's informing what we find attractive and not Hollywood, which has the highest divorce rate on planet Earth. Okay, like, isn't it ironic that the people who are the worst at marriage get to inform what we should look for in marriage?
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Bryce Crawford
Whoa.
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Jonathan Puda
Isn't that ironic?
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Bryce Crawford
That's crazy.
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Jonathan Puda
It's like we got to hit reset on this thing, man. We got to go back to the basics. And people are going to argue with this episode because I've been having these arguments for over a decade now. And so you're going to argue with me in your head. But just, just consider what I'm saying prayerfully, like, you're looking for someone. Dating is the job interview. So what's the position as a, as a wife or a husband, a mother or a father to your children? Consider what the position is and then consider what you're looking for. Because I see people all the time marry someone who's super hot by the world standards, but they make a miserable spouse and they get stuck in a miserable marriage and they become roommates. They married for what they thought was going to be incredible sex. Nobody's having sex. They're, they're not even sleeping in the same room. You know, they're, they're, they are roommates or less than. Most of the people can choose whoever they want on planet Earth. And most people choose incorrectly. And people argue with me and I'm like, hey, what's the divorce rate? We can go really conservative and say 40%. Okay, now if 40 of people are getting divorced, so they're undoing their marriage. There's this other large percentage of people who are staying married, but they don't, they don't, they're not intimate, they're, they're just roommates. So most people choose poorly. And I would say be somebody who choose, chooses correctly.
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Bryce Crawford
That's encouraging. So, so in order to choose correctly. Right. The ladies got to know what to look like, look for in a man. Yeah, the men have to know what to look for in a woman.
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Jonathan Puda
That's right.
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Bryce Crawford
So for the women first, what does it mean to be a man according to the Bible?
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Jonathan Puda
Yeah, I mean, in two words that I, I, people will say are outdated. That's why we called, that's why I called the book outdated because I was like, there's so much confusion around. This is, I think of biblical masculinity is God in the Garden of Eden saying, hey, I want you to bring order to this. You know, there's chaos here. I want you to begin to name the animals and I want you to care for them. I want you to be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. Cultivate the land, make beautiful things. And so this is a, a picture of biblical masculinity right there out of the gate. Two words that, that I don't think are outdated is kind of protector and provider. Now that we can over index on these, like, you know, can the wife be the breadwinner? Sure. I mean, like, is that possible? Sure. You're gonna, if you marry Taylor Swift, you're gonna have a really hard time outdoing her income, I imagine. Right?
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
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Jonathan Puda
And, but, and, and you know, as the protector, is there exceptions to that? If you marry, I don't know, Ronda Rousey, like she, she may play the protector, I don't know, but yeah, she'd.
- [27:13]
Bryce Crawford
Kill me with a haymaker.
- [27:14]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. But I'm just saying for most relationships, like if somebody kicks in the door at, at 3:00am you know, and I'm like, hey, Monica, go see who that is. Like, people are going to say you're a terrible human being. Like, you need to get your butt out of bed and go and see who that is with a baseball bat. Right. And so, so I think that's, that's something to think through. But the, the list, I like the hand, you know, the thing that I said.
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Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
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Jonathan Puda
But I'll give you a verse. I really like this verse. And it's, it's not a dating verse. And I'll tell You. Why? It's not a dating verse. That's important. Let's not end the conversation without talking. Why? There's not a dating verse in the scripture that's important, but a great verse is First Timothy, 4:12, and it says, do not let anyone look down on you because you're young. That's why. That's why I love being here. It's like you're 21.
- [28:03]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:04]
Jonathan Puda
Like, am I. And my daughters, like, my. My kids look up to you. Their friends look up to you. And I. I want them to have a role model of someone who wants to give their life to telling other people about Jesus. Don't let anyone look down on you because. Because you're young. And then he tells us how. But set an example for believers, okay? In speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity. And he gives us five things to examine. What comes out of their mouth? What. What do they say? Because Jesus tells us that what comes out of someone's mouth tells you what's in their heart. And so while you can't see someone's heart, the Bible says you can see their heart by what comes out of their mouth. So examine their speech conduct. Not what they do to you, because they're interviewing for the job of your spouse and dating. But what do they do for someone who can do nothing for them in return? What do they do for the server? Like, I've seen this about you, Bryce. We've had a few meals together. Like, you are so attentive to the person serving as food. You're such a generous tipper. You know, you. You. You want to leave that person better than you found them. You want to positively impact them for the kingdom of God. That's the kind of person you want to marry, someone who. Who conducts themselves around strangers in a. In a holy and honorable way. Speech, conduct, love. What do they love? How do they love Faith? That's the second Corinthians 6:14 that we talked about. And then purity. Are they radically committed to purity? If they say they love you, but their hand is going anywhere other than a ring box? Like, do they really love you, or do they just want to use you? Do they just want something from you? And. And I think this is. We're. We're hurting each other in. In the way that we date. So I really like that verse. Examine their speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity. Set an example for believers.
- [29:54]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah, I mean, even that goes back to that verse in Ephesians where it literally talks about the. The husband is going to lay their life Down.
- [30:01]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Bryce Crawford
For. For the significant other. For their wife.
- [30:04]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [30:05]
Bryce Crawford
And that. That strikes me that's. There's a weight to that.
- [30:10]
Jonathan Puda
Totally.
- [30:11]
Bryce Crawford
What do you think has caused this resurgence of. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like it's hard to be a man sometimes. Quote, unquote. Why do you think it is hard.
- [30:22]
Jonathan Puda
To be a man?
- [30:25]
Bryce Crawford
Like, are we. Are we are. Are men hardwired to be protectors and providers? Or is that something that you have to teach yourself or. Because I have moments of fear.
- [30:37]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [30:37]
Bryce Crawford
I have moments of. Of struggle. I have moments of brokenness. Does that mean I'm not a protector or provider? Or is that something I have to teach into myself? How do I build it? Build that? I don't know. Beat that into my head. How do I get that in. In me?
- [30:52]
Jonathan Puda
If that makes sense. Yeah. Let me, Let me go slow in this turn on this one because I, you know, I don't want to be misunderstood. And, and there's a lot of confusion out there on this topic. And so I. I wrote a book, your story has a villain. And that's. That's kind of the reason behind studying spiritual warfare for three years. And I really think there are some strongholds in our days, demonic activity, where there's so much confusion around what it means to be a man. I think men feel beat up. I think we haven't had great examples. A lot of us haven't had great examples of fathers. Some of us had absent dads, some of us had bad dads. And. And so we're looking for those role models to. To follow. We. We've coped with pornography. Pornography. It's not just a bad idea because it rewires your brain. It's not just a bad idea because it causes you to objectify women. It's not just a bad idea because it. It. You know, addiction to pornography is not an addiction to sex. It's an addiction to variety. So to the porn addict, monogamy is very, very difficult. In fact, it's a. It's a systematic training, a university for adultery. It's very difficult for the porn addict to go into marriage and only love one person. By the way, I'm speaking from experience as a. As a porn addict for over a decade. And then I got married and I was like, oh, no, what did I do? And I had to go through recovery, had to get well. And so I think for all of these reasons, it's just kind of stripped us of drive, it stripped us of ambition, any kind of kingdom, godly, holy, ambition. And so we're really just left with, hey, how do we just get through life? Like, how do we drift through life? And I think that's, that the enemy has, has done that. Then I also think there's a movement right now that, that it's, it's just riddled with confusion. It's like, hey, it's kind of a modern feminism that says, hey, anything you, you can do, I can do. And, and it speaks out of both sides of its mouth because it's like, like I said, if somebody kicks in the door at 2am and I'm like, hey, Monica, go see who that is, well, then I'm the bad guy. But if I say that I need to be the guy that always goes to see who it is, then I'm also the bad guy. So there's just so much confusion there around roles and what does that look like? And I do, I'm, I'm, I am a, I guess like a soft complementarian, to put a theological term on it. I do believe God made male and female different to play different roles. Now I'm not saying that a woman can't work outside the home. So that would be like a really hard complementarian stance that that's not where I'm at at all. I'm just like, look at me and my wife. And I look at most men and most women and I'm like, they're different. There are things that my wife is much better at than I am and those things are necessary and, and they play a role in the raising of our children that is invaluable. Like, there are so many things that she's better at than me. And there are some things where I'm going to excel beyond her capabilities because of how God made me as a male. And, and so I think that plays a role in marriage that we need to, to consider.
- [34:02]
Bryce Crawford
So on the flip side, from what women should look for in a man.
- [34:06]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [34:07]
Bryce Crawford
What should the man be looking for in a godly woman in today's day and age?
- [34:11]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah, I think you're looking for someone. If the job is a great wife and a great mother to my kids, then I would consider, okay, what are the qualities that would make someone a great wife and a great mother to my kids? I think you have to think beyond the bedroom. If you have a really healthy sex life, you're having sex 0.6% of the time. That's if you're doing it a lot, 0.6% of the time, which means you better be really great at a lot of the things you're going to be doing. 99.4% of the time. That's a lot of conversations. You know, that's a, that's a lot of other, a lot of other things. And, and I just don't think dudes think about that. I don't think dudes think about how her body's going to change through pregnancy and giving birth to three children. I don't think a lot of dudes are going to, are thinking about how there's parts of her bodies that are going to be off, off limits for long periods of time. And this is how porn has just really messed us up. And so you're thinking through the character qualities of, of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control. Galatians 5. This is a great list to look for in a wife. I wrote another book called Outdated, I mentioned earlier, and there's actually, I have a list in there of what to look for in a guy and what to look for in a girl to try to just, you know, spell that out. But first, Peter 3 is a great scripture. Ephesians 5, you mentioned earlier is a great, great scripture. Colossians 3, Proverbs 31. I know there's a lot of big eye roll mo moment for people. It's like, oh, Proverbs 31. But it's, it is, it's great. King Lemuel, there's a, there's a good, you know, list of qualities that actually come from his mom, you know, there to, to consider.
- [36:01]
Bryce Crawford
So why is there no verse in the Bible about dating?
- [36:04]
Jonathan Puda
Ah, great question. Because dating is about 120 years old. Okay, be ready to argue with me, listener. Prior to 120 years ago, no one in the history of the world ever went on a date. Okay, you don't have a single biblical example of a date. It was arranged marriage. Song of Solomon, chapter 1, verse 4 says that their friends and family praised their, their love more than wine. Which is to say they appreciated the, that God brought them together more than the party, more than the open bar, more than the, the food that was served. That they, they came together and said, hey, this makes sense. Jesus says, what God has brought together, let man not separate. There was, there was this bringing together in that culture. In a biblical culture, there were times that you would meet your spouse at the altar. Like, where does physical attraction fit into that narrative? Like meeting your spouse at the altar. Yeah, right. And so I, I think that's, you can see how far we've come in 2025, where we hold physical attraction in, you know, to the highest standard, you know, we put it in the first place. But dating. You ready for this? Dating entered the English language as a euphemism for prostitution. A guy was talking on a radio show, and he was talking about his. His girlfriend, and he said she started taking dates with other guys, meaning she was sleeping with other men. And that's where the word entered the English language. Dating. Okay. As a euphemism for prostitution to go on a date meant to exchange sexual favors for an experience. Now consider how we date in 2025. The world, they exchange sexual experience. Sexual favors for an experience. Like, show me a good time, Take me to a great dinner. Let's go on an incredible vacation, and then let's get a great hotel room and. And I'll show you a good time. That's really how a lot of the world thinks about dating. And so I'm not trying to kiss it goodbye, but I do think we need to redeem it. And. And what dating needs to be for believers is a pathway to a promise. And so I would say, you know, you have a girlfriend. Yeah. I would say, what do you need to find out about her to determine if she would be a great wife?
- [38:34]
Bryce Crawford
I don't know. I don't even know. Like, the times I spend with her are amazing.
- [38:38]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [38:39]
Bryce Crawford
And I love seeing her heart, and I love seeing her character. And I also love the downtime moments where it's just like, we're laughing about stupid stuff.
- [38:45]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [38:45]
Bryce Crawford
Or like it's silly and things like that. I. I guess for me personally, not that we haven't had these conversations, but, like, what. What kind of. Almost like what you proposed earlier is like. I feel like the biggest thing for me is what. What are you attracted to about me the most?
- [39:05]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [39:06]
Bryce Crawford
And what am I attracted to you about the most?
- [39:08]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Bryce Crawford
I think that's a really healthy conversation to have.
- [39:11]
Jonathan Puda
I think it's a very good question to consider for people who are dating is when. What do I need to find out about them to determine if they would be a suitable spouse? What is the gap? And then how do I intentionally find that out quickly and effectively? Because I'll be honest with you, as someone who's been single, as someone who's dated and someone who's been married, dating is the worst of the three. Singleness. Awesome. You can go places, do things. You can leverage it for the kingdom. First Corinthians 7. You know, you're concerned about the fares, the account kingdom. Paul writes that he's plagiarizing Matthew 19. He says, Jesus says in Matthew 19 there are some who are celibate for the sake of the kingdom, not everyone who can accept it, but those who can should. Like, singleness is awesome. Marriage, amazing. You, you get, you can sleep in the same bed, you can snuggle, you can have sex, you can be intimate. You can literally create life and children and raise those children to know God and sit at the breakfast table and make memories on family vacation. It's awesome. Singleness, awesome. Marriage, awesome. Dating, not so awesome. It's like I gotta be around someone that I'm really attracted to, but I can't really touch them in a way that, that causes their body to begin to prepare for sex because that wouldn't be loving. And so I'm trying to restrain this constantly and I'm, and I, but I have these strong feelings for them, but there's all these baked in insecurities because I don't know if they feel the same way about me all the time. And we just kind of go through these emotional highs and lows. So I would try to get out of the dating phase as quickly and effectively as possible to say, what do I need to know about this person to understand if they would be a suitable spouse so that we can get this show on the road or stop wasting each other's time. Because again, this dating thing, totally man made, didn't exist prior to 120 years ago. Totally our invention that is now a cultural phenomenon in America, at least of, of how we, we try to find a spouse.
- [41:09]
Bryce Crawford
What about courting? Like, is that not the same thing basically? Or like, where did that come from?
- [41:13]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah, I think it is about the same thing. So courting was when you would really pursue a woman through her father and so you would talk to her dad, you would, you would spend time together in, in the, the living room. So a lot of times I think we play some word games as Christians, like courting, dating, you know, we, we just put some parameters around it. But really with the invention of the automobile, like the car, because when you couldn't drive, it was just like if you wanted to, if you wanted to see, you know, pursue a woman, you'd have to go to her house, you'd have to talk to her parents, and then you'd really spend time together there. It wasn't really in the backseat of the, the movies. I mean, a lot of times you're sitting on the front porch where everyone could look in on that relationship and there was an authenticity and a transparency to it. But that's all gone away because now we're, you know, and then with the birth of technology, even a lot of dating happens through FaceTime and, you know, Tinder and whatnot.
- [42:09]
Bryce Crawford
So I, so I know a lot of people that I want to get your thoughts on this. Say they see Paul say it's better to get married than to burn with passion.
- [42:16]
Jonathan Puda
Right. Yeah.
- [42:17]
Bryce Crawford
And something that I, I kind of try to understand. Is it wrong to date for a long time or. No. Because to the people that say, oh, well, we got married because we were burning with a lot of passion. My question, not like trying to be like a butthole.
- [42:31]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [42:31]
Bryce Crawford
But it's like, do you just not have self control?
- [42:34]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Bryce Crawford
Because self control is a fruit of the spirit.
- [42:36]
Jonathan Puda
Sure.
- [42:36]
Bryce Crawford
So, like, is it bad today for a long time if that fruit is bearing fruit in your life of self control? And like to say that dating is this job application, like, what, what is the time limit on it? I, I know people that have gotten married in less than three months and they are so, so happy.
- [42:53]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [42:54]
Bryce Crawford
And then I know other people that have gotten married in two years and they are incredibly happy. I'm using that as a broad label on it.
- [43:01]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [43:01]
Bryce Crawford
I also know people that I got married quickly and screwed up. And then I also know people that have dated long and gotten married and they screwed up.
- [43:09]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [43:09]
Bryce Crawford
So I, I mean, is there like really a formula or can you just.
- [43:13]
Jonathan Puda
Be like, it's all made up. You can't determine obedience by the outcome. So I, I don't always like, as Christians to go to use others as examples. I just, I think about the biblical text and how does the scripture inform our behavior here? And so Monica and I dated for three years. We got married. It was great for a year. It was really hard. Year two, we almost got divorced. And then community came in our lives and, and we have an amazing marriage. We're over, over 20 years now, three kids and, and I would say we dated too long. I, I don't think that our bio, our biology was made and, and designed to spend time with someone that we really, really like and we're physically attracted to. I mean, we're basically like just restraining our bodies in, in ways that we, we weren't meant to. And then you get married and you stand in front of your friends and family and you're like, you know, for richer, poor, sickness and health, till death do us part. I do. And now you're like, you have to tell your body. But hey, all that stuff I've been telling you. No, no, no, no, no. Now it's okay. And some people really struggle with the flipping of that switch. And so I'm just, I'm just not like, the biggest fan of the way that we date today. I'm much, I'm a much bigger fan of like, short dating. But the problem with that is a lot of people don't have the maturity that is required for marriage. And so I, I, like, literally didn't have this thought till right now, but I'm so passionate about this that I've invested in a matchmaking site. Qualified date.com.
- [44:45]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
- [44:45]
Jonathan Puda
And so shout out. I, I didn't come on here to talk about that. It didn't even cross my mind till right now. No, no.
- [44:51]
Bryce Crawford
We were at your house and you literally match made like seven people on there when I was there a few weeks ago.
- [44:56]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. So. Which is so lit. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's like, and people are like, oh, you know, you're a pastor, you're trying to get rich. Listen, I've made zero dollars on this. Zero. And, and won't for a very, very long time, possibly ever. It is all, it is a passion project because I look at the landscape of the world and I'm just like, man, we are doing this so wrong and people are so unhappy. And I, I think if we prioritize the things that God prioritized, that we would be set up for much more success. And they say, well, how do you know? Listen, I've done lots of marriages I, I, I, I served in. And I mean this with humility. But the largest young adult ministry in, in America at least. And what that meant is maybe I've done more weddings as anyone my age or, or as many have. You know, I've done a lot of weddings. I don't know how to say that. And, and so I've seen the ones that work. I've seen the relationships that work. I've seen the ones that don't. I see what people are doing. So that's the experience I'm bringing to the table. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not trying to, like, rock your world or mess you up. I want anyone listening to, to be healthy and happy and have a thriving relationship with Jesus first. And then if they desire marriage, a thriving marriage. And if you don't want marriage, a thriving single life, like, you can be an amazing follower of Jesus and single. It's not lesser than. It's not jv. It. It's. It's awesome. Jesus was single. Paul was single. But if you desire marriage, I want you to find marriage in a way that's. That's God honoring, and that's why we did that, that website.
- [46:33]
Bryce Crawford
So I hear sometimes people on Tick Tock say, man, they were my missing rib. You're my missing rib.
- [46:40]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:40]
Bryce Crawford
Like, you were my soul mate.
- [46:42]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. Yeah. Soulmate.
- [46:43]
Bryce Crawford
Do you think God makes a person specifically for each person, or do you think it's. It's just kind of like free game, I guess.
- [46:52]
Jonathan Puda
It's fascinating. Soulmate comes from Greek mythology, and it was this belief that Zeus had cut people in half and that. That literally, like, you're, like, half your soul is around there, and you have to find them. And it's. It's a rather hopeless idea because you're, like, trying to find the needle in the haystack amongst 8 billion people in the world. Like, you've got to find that one person. And I would say that. That a biblical perspective on this is that you could be really happy with hundreds of thousands of people of the opposite sex that were born, you know, in some window around when you were. And they loved. You love Jesus, and they love Jesus, and together, y'. All. Y' all could be a great ministry partner, you know, and. And really learn to enjoy each other and really learn to serve each other and really learn to sacrifice for each other. And it's such an unpopular perspective, because people, we. We so idolize feelings, emotions, and physical attraction. But watch. There's a lot of people that put the feelings, emotions, physical attraction, and chemistry in first place, and. And they marry, and it's really hot and heavy, and then they divorce. Like the Bachelor and the Bachelorette. The TV show has done us such a great service here because we can see that. That they have created chemistry. They've put beautiful people in a room, and you get to choose from lots of them. And we have very few weddings from that show. Okay, so my friend Sean Lowe and Catherine, who are believers, and I think it's the Holy Spirit that holds them together, not the show. And. And I know that there's been at least one other and. And maybe a couple more, but. But for the most part, it's an epic failure in creating a marriage. Epic. Hear me quote me. Epic failure in creating a marriage, because they prioritize the wrong things. They prioritize the things that the world prioritized, and that's why it's not working out.
- [48:58]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah. So do you think it's wrong, though, to have, like, a perspective of, like, oh, this person kind of, like, completes me?
- [49:04]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Bryce Crawford
Like. Or not maybe not complete, like, oh, like, they're my missing rib.
- [49:08]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah, Yeah, I do. I. I think it's. I think it's. This type of person goes really well with me. And the argument against that theologically would be the sovereignty of God was like, but God, if God knows everything, then God knows who I'm going to end up with. Which means God created somebody for me to find. And I would say God has zero expectations that you would be God and that you would know what God knows. And so God gives you parameters to look for. And for the most of history, people determined that for you on your behalf, like, you did not get to speak into who you married for most of history, and especially when the Bible was written. That was true. And so for me to think, like, listen, I'm six foot seven. I'm weird tall. Like, like LeBron James. Like, I'm. I'm weird tall. My wife is five two. I've got dark hair. She has blonde hair. I like guns, motorcycles in the ufc. She likes babies and puppies. You know, like, we couldn't be more different. Man, I'm an extrovert. Go, go, go. She's an introvert. You know, I love vacation. I love. I love big dates at nice restaurants. She loves simple food and game nights in the living room. Like, we are opposites in so many ways, and that has been a force to be reckoned with because we complement each other so well. Now, if we shared a lot of interest, that that could be great too.
- [50:33]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
- [50:34]
Jonathan Puda
But I don't think, having been married 20 years, that God made her and me at the same time so that we would only be each other's match. Yeah. I'll say it like this, Bryce. Is there someone that Monica could be happy with, Happier without. There. And the answer is absolutely yes. Is there someone I could be happier with out there? The answer is absolutely yes. But it doesn't matter because we said I do to each other. So we are in a covenant relationship together before God, the creator of the heavens, the earth, so. So we will love each other until we both die, regardless of what happens. And outdated. I wrote about this couple that they got married, and four days in, on the honeymoon, she gets a. A wave crashes her up against a rock, and she's now a quadriplegic. Now that dude's lot in life is changing her diaper for the rest of the. Like, that's like, he, he, Is that what he signed up for? Cuz the world's going to say, oh, you can, you can let him, you know, you can get out of that. You know, you should be happy, get her a good nurse, whatever. No, man, for the rest of his life he's taking care of her because four days into the honeymoon she was crashed against a rock and she's now quadriplegic. And I think it's a beautiful example of Christ.
- [51:53]
Bryce Crawford
Dang, that's powerful. That's kind of like Hosea Gomer straight up.
- [51:57]
Jonathan Puda
Like literally, like you got a whole book of the Bible on that. Hey, I want you to love this woman who's paying other dudes to have sex with her.
- [52:05]
Bryce Crawford
What Crazy.
- [52:06]
Jonathan Puda
That's how God loves us.
- [52:08]
Bryce Crawford
How do we create healthy dating boundaries in relationships? Is that kind of like a Christian liberty kind of thing? In a sense. And what I mean, I label that as in do boundaries in dating. Is it like, if my list of boundaries is different than so and so's boundaries from like a broad perspective, does that make mine better or worse than theirs? Or how do you create that, that set of boundaries?
- [52:34]
Jonathan Puda
You mean physical boundaries?
- [52:36]
Bryce Crawford
Any sort of boundaries? Physical, spiritual. Because like, sometimes people are like, oh man, you shouldn't pray together when you're dating. And some people are like, oh, well, you should pray together when you're dating. And like to me, I'm like, oh, I, I don't even know. Like, I, to me, I, I, when I hear that, like something like that, like you shouldn't pray together when you're dating. To me, I don't understand the, the, the wrong, why that's wrong.
- [52:58]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah, I don't either. Yeah, it has to be a, Is that legalistic?
- [53:03]
Bryce Crawford
Not necessarily about the prayer thing, but.
- [53:05]
Jonathan Puda
Here'S why I think it is legalistic, is because I cannot think of a verse. So it's a wisdom principle, potentially for some. And so I don't like if you said, hey, I don't pray with Maddie because I just, it does something to my heart, doesn't guard her heart. Proverbs 4. 23. I'd say, man, that's amazing. Wisdom principle for you. But if you said no one should, I would say that's legalism. Because the Bible doesn't say that. Yeah, what the Bible says is flee sexual immorality. All other sin a person commits are outside the body. Whoever sin sexually sins against their own body. Do not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Who is in you, whom you've received from God. You're not your own. You've been bought by price. Therefore honor God with your body. This is 1 Corinthians 6, 18, 20. And so the. What I would say, what I believe the scripture is teaching is that when we. When our bodies begin to prepare for sex, we've gone too far. And so we were like, hey, can I. Can we kiss? I'm like, what Depends on how you kiss. Like, are you. Are you, like, tongue kiss? You French kissing? Like, laying down, rubbing, petting. It's like, because that's unloving, man. You are revving up that engine, and then you're pulling the brake and then you're leaving. And like, that's. It's. It's painful. Yeah, it's. It's unloving. It's not kind. It's not a kindness to them. And you say you love them, you say you like them, but then you hurt them. Like, what kind of person does that? You know? And so I don't say that to shame you. I'm just like. I'm ask. I'm genuinely asking the question. I was that kind of person, by the way. So I'm. It's not judgment. It's like, man, just think about how unwise that is. And so If I apply 1 Corinthians 6, then I'm just thinking, hey, if. When. When my bio biology begins to say, okay, hey, it's like, the way that God made me is brilliant design. You know, the way that God made us to literally create life is like, when my body begins to prepare to create life, like, I've gone too far. Likewise with. With a female.
- [55:04]
Bryce Crawford
Why do you think that society idolizes romantic relationships today so much?
- [55:10]
Jonathan Puda
Because we idolize pleasure. And. And sex feels good in most cases, and. And it's the highest high we can get apart from drugs. And so the dopamine levels and the endorphins that are released during orgasm are among the highest that you can realize naturally. You can have. Your body can release endorphins on a run you call a runner's high, or during a workout or when you get really great news. You know, that kind of things. But the serotonin levels, the endorphin levels that are released during. During intimacy are the highest that you can naturally experience. And we're constantly. It's the same reason. It's like, why does anybody do crystal meth? Like, have you seen it seems like people get really stuck doing crystal meth. Must feel really good. Yeah, because then they can't not do it. Well, it's the same is the same is true with sex outside of marriage. On an erotic scale of 1 to 10, sex outside of marriage is an 11. Now people who are saved themselves are like, well, wait, what am I missing out on? And I'm like, you're missing out on something really addictive. You know what else would be a high erotic scale? Sex with your neighbor, spouse. You know, it's because, like, there's a danger factor when is so, like, life isn't about, let me go and try to experience the most amount of pleasure I can to I. I can. Life is really about restraint, learning to enjoy the pursuit of holiness, a nearness to God. Like, that's what's lost, I think, in our culture today. God, he says, be holy, because I am holy. And so what does it look like for me to be sanctified first? Thessalonians 4. 4. This is God will for you. This, that you would be sanctified, that you would avoid sexual immorality. He says, you want to know the will of God, that you would grow in godliness and that you would avoid sexual immorality. That's what he says.
- [57:08]
Bryce Crawford
Dang.
- [57:09]
Jonathan Puda
This is God's will for you. Whoa.
- [57:12]
Bryce Crawford
So, dang. I had such a random thought, and then I lost it for a second. It'll come back to me. I'm going to shift over to marriage really quick. Not necessarily about marriage. This is more so on the sexual side of things in marriage, which I think, I think a lot of people. These are the top two questions that, that I think a lot of people ask about. About anything sexual. Number one in regards to marriage and sex. What leads to a healthy sex life in marriage? If that's. If it's not about sex. Right, because dating is not about sex. Relationships are not about sex. But sex being a gift from God, what leads to.
- [57:52]
Jonathan Puda
To that. Yeah, man. So it's like the, the Hebrew word do, this mingling of souls. Matt Chandler writes about this. It's. It's. It's so different than what you think is a single person. I'll just say, speak first person. Very different than what I thought of as a single person. Selfless service. So as, as a. Like, we often, when we think about intimacy, we think, what can I get? What pleasure can I experience? But it's really an act of giving. You know, how can I. How can I serve my lover and, and make sure that she is cared for and she feels safe and protected and, and, and, you know, I'm gentle and I'm not trying to be weird now. I know that people are going to take that out of context and make a meme about me, but I wasn't.
- [58:45]
Bryce Crawford
Trying to be weird either, asking it. But I know, but I know people.
- [58:48]
Jonathan Puda
People genuinely are like, giving like, like selflessness. I always tell, like, single friends, I'm like, don't live alone. Like, if you desire marriage, don't live alone. Because idiosyncrasies grow in isolation and, and marriage is really a long act of selflessly serving somebody for the rest of your life. And it's beautiful and it's great and it's awesome and it, but it's hard and it's work and, and there's some real challenges there. And so one of the best ways to prepare for marriage is have roommates, dysfunctional roommates that don't do the dishes. You know, those kind of roommates that will prepare you for marriage.
- [59:25]
Bryce Crawford
In marriage, can the bedroom become sinful?
- [59:28]
Jonathan Puda
Sure, if you, how? Yeah, I, I, I think when you're, when you have no regard for your partner's, your spouse's safety, when you try to bring in images outside the marriage, and so some people are like, oh, well, we'll look at porn together. It's like that, that is, that is so sinful and, and evil. And Satan receives it as worship. Porno. Satan receives pornography as worship. You can quote me on that. Yeah, I don't, I don't mean to be prideful when I say that. I'm just, I'm, I've been so personally hurt by pornography. I've brought so much pain on myself and others with, with that, that I, I think the enemy is, is glorified in it. If you, if you push your spouse to do something that they're not comfortable doing, it's, it's not a sales pitch. Like, it's a, it's a time of service, serving them and caring for them. And that's really what I mean. I think so often there's so many husbands that want to live out all their pornographic fantasies in marriage. And that's, that's not what it's about. It's about serving your spouse.
- [60:35]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah, that, that danger factor that you brought up with if, like, oh, erotic experience could be, you know, sleeping with your neighbor's significant other or outside of marriage. It reminded me, I think, like Proverbs 4, 5 or 6, when it's like writing about the adulterous woman, like prepping the bed like fine linen and the scent and, and don't worry, my husband's Gone. Like, this is going to be an elaborate experience. That's literally what my brain thinks about.
- [61:02]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. How.
- [61:04]
Bryce Crawford
How can men or women love their significant other without giving their significant other power over them? If that makes sense.
- [61:17]
Jonathan Puda
What do you mean by power over?
- [61:18]
Bryce Crawford
When I say power, I mean, like, when they start to matter more than what matters most.
- [61:21]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [61:23]
Bryce Crawford
Because that. That does sound, like, really intense. But I know there's. It's. It's easy in a relationship.
- [61:28]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [61:29]
Bryce Crawford
I believe. Because it's a form of love to label that person or that thing as, oh, yep, this is my everything. And then you kind of lose sight of yourself, who you are. Maybe you even lose your hobbies.
- [61:41]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [61:42]
Bryce Crawford
Like, one of the struggles I had. My relationship right now is like my first real, like, long relationship. And I lost. I didn't know what hobbies I enjoyed after a little bit because I was so. Thought Maddie was just amazing, which she is. She's absolutely amazing. But I. I, like, didn't even know what I wanted to do.
- [62:02]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [62:02]
Bryce Crawford
I lost myself for a second.
- [62:04]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. I would just say, like, if you. If you're not a follower of Jesus, you. I'm not. I'm not here to give you dating lessons. Like, you know, find Jesus and pursue him. Figure out if he's true. I'm not looking to change your behavior, but to influence your belief. If you are a follower of Jesus. I think what dating looks like is really a sweet friendship of a guy and a man and a woman saying, hey, let's pursue Christ together. Tommy Nelson talks about it like, you're running a race. And it's like, man, I'm just pursuing Jesus. I'm running hard after Jesus. I'm running toward Jesus. I'm going on this mission trip. I'm serving at my church. I'm going to church on Sundays. I'm going to recovery night, discipleship night. I'm serving. I'm doing these things. And as I'm running this race, I look beside me and I noticed that, man, there's this woman beside me often as I'm running this race. We're racing. She's running hard after Jesus, too. And. And at some point, and I'm like, hey, do you want to. Do you want to continue to run with me? You want to keep running this race together for the rest of our lives? You do. Okay, great. And I think that's dating into marriage. What it looks like is you're just. You're the greatest lover of your soul is Jesus Christ. You're pursuing him, and you guys are pursuing him together. And when you realize, like, hey, I. I like pursuing this guy. You like pursuing this guy. Let's pursue this guy together. That. That's. That's what dating looks like. And so if we learn from Hollywood, it's like, oh, my gosh, you're amazing. You're hot. You're so attractive. I can't stop thinking about you. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. And. And it's all of that, and you just give your heart away, and then you break up, and then you're. You're like. The average breakup is, like, going through divorce today. It's like, the way that we date. We're, like, so emotionally invested, and then we have to undo that and rip a heart away from them, you know? And it's like, our hearts weren't made for that, man.
- [63:56]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
- [63:56]
Jonathan Puda
Like, no wonder anxiety's so high. No wonder. Depression so high. High. Our hearts weren't made to, like, our hearts were really made to be given away once and that. And then. And then maybe we experience grief through death and then maybe remarriage. But our hearts were not made to be given away over and over and over again. So we have to consider. Consider our biological makeup, like how God, the creator of the heavens and the earth, designed us and. And literally, like, how he made us. And so that's what. That's why I'm just not a big fan of dating. Like, you're married. I'm a fan of. Of dating to get married quickly and efficiently and effectively as possible.
- [64:36]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah, I like that. One thing I wanted to close with is you're about your new book. I wanted to talk about it because. Because I love you. It's about spiritual warfare. And I think. I think the enemy attacks relationships the same way, attacks our mind. The same thing. He attacks everything. You said you researched three years on spiritual warfare.
- [64:56]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah.
- [64:56]
Bryce Crawford
Would just love for you to talk a little bit about your story has a villain and kind of the heart behind it and where people can find it.
- [65:01]
Jonathan Puda
Yeah. This. I. I was raised Catholic. I didn't go to church in college. And I would say I became a Christian 22 years ago when I was at a club and someone invited me to church and I went hungover and smell like smoke from the night before and surrender my life to Jesus. That's the short version. But I began to explore world religions. I looked at the Hindu faith, the Buddhist faith, the Jewish faith, the Islamic faith, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Christian Science, Scientology, and I Kept tripping over Jesus. And I, when I realized that the Christian narrative was true, that Jesus died for my sins and God raised him from the dead. And I placed my face faith in that. I. I didn't give enough thought to this idea of the enemy. And it's like, when I was in la, not long ago, there were these fires, you know, the LA fires. It was so weird to me that there were these firemen, like, giving their lives to fight these fires and trying to, like, save people and houses and animals and horse, all the things. And meanwhile, like, so much of LA was just going on, like, normal. Like, I mean, they were like, I saw a dude on Venice beach getting a massage. You know, other people were skateboarding. I'm like, dude, there's a fire right there. And I think we think about spiritual warfare like that. Like, oh, yeah, there's angels and demons fighting all around us. But until it impacts me, until it impacts my house, I'm not even concerned about it until I have to step into the war. But the reality is you're in the war right now, whether you realize it or not. The. The enemy is, Is fighting you. You have demons around you. Like, one third of the angelic realm fell with Satan and, And those fallen angels, they're trying to keep you out of right relationship with God. This is why your quiet time is hard. This is why the Bible doesn't make sense when you read it. This is why when you pray, you feel like you're just talking to the air and that. That God feels far. It's all a part of the spiritual war. This is why you're so tempted in dating to go farther than you should. You know, it's like, it's like dating without the intentions of marriage or like shopping without money. You either take something that doesn't belong to you or you leave frustrated. You either leave frustrated, or you take something that doesn't belong to you.
- [67:09]
Bryce Crawford
Dang.
- [67:09]
Jonathan Puda
And. And that's why I'm like, that's. That's where the enemy works. Yeah. And so your story has a villain is just really about that. Your story, your narrative here on earth. You have an enemy. He hates you, and he's not afraid of you.
- [67:23]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah.
- [67:23]
Jonathan Puda
But he's terrified of Jesus, so you want to be close to Jesus. Psalm 23, you know, the Lord is my shepherd. The pronouns change in that psalm. I don't know if you've ever noticed that, but he says, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in Greek pastures. He leads me Beside quiet waters, he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness. For his name's sake. For his name's sake. For even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear. For you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they come for me in the valley of the shadow of death. The sheep draw near to the shepherd because the shepherd is their protection. And so that's the solution. Satan's not afraid of you. Satan's never been anywhere near you, by the way. He's not omnipresent. He can only be in one place at one time. Demons have been around you. But Satan doesn't even know who. Who we are. You know, he's. He's in somewhere with kings and rulers and genocide and wars and whatnot. But. So if. If I'm being attacked spiritually, I need to move close to Jesus because they're terrified of Jesus. Yeah.
- [68:31]
Bryce Crawford
Where can. Where can people find this book?
- [68:33]
Jonathan Puda
Everywhere. Books are sold, man. You know? Yeah, Amazon, all the things Barnes and Nobles. You can go to jonathanpocluded.com which is obnoxious, but just a. Something that the, you know, publisher wants you to do when you write a book. And so all this, it's all there.
- [68:47]
Bryce Crawford
Well, I'm excited to read it. Thank you for getting. Thanks for dropping some wisdom on us about dating relationships.
- [68:53]
Jonathan Puda
Thanks for giving me that waffle shirt and a double xl.
- [68:56]
Bryce Crawford
Yeah. Hey, hey. You know, you already know.
- [68:58]
Jonathan Puda
Come on.
- [68:59]
Bryce Crawford
Thanks for coming on, guys. Thank you so much for watching, guys. If you appreciated the wisdom we received from Pastor Jonathan, go check him out on social media. Love you guys and see you guys in the next episode.
- [69:10]
Jonathan Puda
Episode, man. Love you guys.
- [69:12]
Bryce Crawford
Guys, thank you so much for watching and tuning in to these episodes, guys. If you love watching and listening to these episodes, aside from following us along on Instagram, tick tock, Spotify, YouTube, I want to ask you guys, would you guys consider partnering with our ministry financially? Your guys's radical generosity is actually what continues to fuel and produce these podcast episodes and our evangelism videos. So if you guys feel a burden to support this ministry, reach lost souls with the gospel through digital and in person ministry. Go to jesusinthestreet.org pray and ask God, how should I partner with. With Bryce and their ministry and Jesus in the street ministry? Should I partner with them in prayer? Should I partner with them in finances? Should I partner with them in support, whatever it may be? Pray and ask God, how should I support Jesus in the street ministry? Love you guys. See you guys next week for the next episode.