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The Business of Fashion Podcast
Does Fashion Still Know What Women Want?
00:27:27
As designers dial up spectacle, female critics question whether runways respect how women actually live and dress. BoF’s Cat Chen and Diana Pearl join The Debrief to unpack the practicality and spectacle of womenswear designs this season.
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A
Foreign.
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B
Hello, and welcome to the Debrief from the business of fashion, where each week we delve into Our most popular BoF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young. This fashion month, models walked the tightrope between fantasy and function. On the Runway, we saw spectacle dialed all the way up. An armless dress at a liar that gave straight jacket vibes. Models with mouths propped open at Maison Margiela, and naked body prints at Jean Paul Gaultier. Some critics have asked what feels like an obvious question. Do designers actually understand or even care how women dress in their real lives? To help us unpack this all, I'm joined by BoF's Diana Pearl and Kathleen Chen, co authors of the recent article does Fashion Know what Women Want? Diana, Kat, welcome back to the Debrief.
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C
Thanks for having us.
- [00:58]
D
Hey, Sheena.
- [01:00]
B
So I want to start with the fact that we've had this very interesting fashion month, right? On one side, all these amazing and celebrated designer debuts. Matthew at Chanel, Demnat, Gucci. And then on the other side of the conversation, there's this very subtle, almost backlash around how women were depicted on the Runway this season. So, Diana, give us your quick read. What didn't connect on that side of things?
- [01:25]
C
Yeah, I think that there. There were lots of shows that were very well liked, and obviously, it was very exciting season with lots of debuts. But there was a theme that popped up at numerous shows that felt like just designers weren't really designing for actual women or at worst, designing clothes that felt almost a little bit disrespectful to women. You know, you had Alaia that presented a dress that without sleeves. Like you said, it almost felt like a straight jacket. At Jean Paul Gaultier, models walked the Runway wearing these bodysuits that were printed with man's naked body. So it's literally like disguising the woman and, like, presenting her as a man. At Margiela, the models had their mouths held open with these metal, like, mouthpieces that looked very uncomfortable. Ecarege. There were multiple dresses that covered the face, so it all felt either like it was erasing the woman or immobilizing them. You know, almost like, in some ways, like, fashion is a form of torture with, you know, the. The mouthpieces, to me, looked a little torture device esque. And obviously, this is the Runway. You know, a lot of these looks are sort of dramatized for the Runway, but even if, you know, they're never created for sale or they're watered down to a More wearable version. There's still a message that it feels like is being sent with these looks. And obviously, these aren't looks for women. This is clothes for women. And I think when it feels like the designers aren't respecting women in their designs, that really strikes a chord, especially with, you know, female critics and the women who will ultimately buy these clothes.
- [02:54]
D
You know, I've been thinking a lot about this since we wrote about the collections right after Paris. And, you know, I was even looking at some previous seasons and kind of comparing the level of, you know, skeptical. And what we were saying is that this season, that sort of balance was off. And, you know, it did occur to me that I think if looking at these shows in a vacuum, I really don't think that, you know, somehow this. This year, things were more preposterous than previous seasons. Like, if we were to isolate each collection, like, you know, even the. Even at, you know, Margiela, the mouthpieces, you know, that was a nod to Margiela's logo. You know, as a Margiela fan, like, I've always loved that. Very subtle, the four stitches. And that's what they were trying to replicate with the mouth guard. I think that there's. There is an aesthetic explanation for a lot of the choices behind what we saw on the Runway. But I think the reason why it struck a nerve this season is because of other sort of external circumstances, a confluence of factor, one of which is that many of these brands are struggling financially. And the other thing is that there has been this sense of creative stagnancy where consumers haven't felt a sense of excitement with these labels that contributed to the financial piece of it. Right. And so the fact that these designers had a commercial incentive to be more resonant with consumers, and then creating these collections that didn't hit at that level, I think made these collections so much more perceptible to be criticized. And that way, yeah, I think you.
- [04:46]
B
Make several good points, but somehow a few people connected these dots as being very anti women. Where did that come from? Where that story. I know one of the articles referenced in your story was Vanessa Friedman at the Times. Like, who were the people that were raising the red flags around what they saw and connecting this as kind of almost anti female sentiment? Who did that and what did they say?
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C
Yeah, I mean, it came from Vanessa Friedman at the Times, like you said. Also Elizabeth Patton at the Financial Times, Amy o', Dell, who writes a substack newsletter called Back Row. She also commented on it. And I think it is interesting that it was a lot of female critics that really noticed this. I do think maybe their lens is a little different. This is something they're a little more attuned to notice. But I think it was a lot of the same thing of just there felt like there was this disconnect between the designer's vision and what women actually wear. Or, you know, like I said before, kind of this almost a lack of respect for the woman who is buying the clothes, whether it's, you know, shielding her face or immobilizing her arms or her mouth or what have you. I think that that kind of came through. And those were a lot of the themes that those writers touched on.
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D
And also on TikTok, right? Like, oh, so a lot.
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B
You know, a lot of it's always.
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D
TikTok, right on TikTok, on Instagram. A lot of just regular people sort of making this observation like, you know, this designer hates women. When. And that was something that we, you know, discussed in the meeting when we were talking about, like, formulating the story. And, of course, a lot of those claims are very much overblown. And that was a theme that we tried to explore in our story. Diana. Right. Where, you know, does fashion hate women? No. Right. At least not at this, like, very sort of black and white way. But it's very easy to villainize fashion as an institution where there are all these systemic reasons how women have had this disadvantage both within the industry of fashion and also as consumers of fashion.
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B
And there is a very important backdrop that we're talking about this in a political backdrop where I think we're seeing a little bit of a backlash to some of that prevailing conservative sentiment. I think that's also playing out here. And then the body positivity bit of it. Right. That's another thing that we didn't get get into yet. It's that, you know, we're in the age of Ozempic, and people feel like they're seeing their Runway go back in another direction. How does that fit into the conversation? How does that drive some of this?
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C
I think it kind of just adds, like, insult to injury in a bit. It's sort of like the cherry on top of just feeling like, okay, not only are, you know, some of these looks don't feel very, you know, realistic for women or like, they really are designed with the woman in mind. And then you also have, you know, a parade of models that just have such a unattainable standard set for their body, or, I mean, models that are all extremely Thin and, you know, very unattainable for the average consumer. I think it sort of just like, adds insult to injury in a way.
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D
Yeah. I think that the lack of body diversity is a lot more alarming to me than this connection between, like, oh, these very sort of conceptually hideous things on the Runway and correlating that with, like, oh, designers are trying to erase women. Like, I see that as, like, more or less tenuous. I'm not sure if I fully agree with that claim, but I do think that the lack of body diversity on the Runway is. Is a huge problem. We saw a chart that was verified by a research firm showing the number of plus size or body diversity on the Runway, basically just falling, you know, straight down from 2023 to 2025. And. Yeah, and I think that's something that we should really be talking about.
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B
And the other thing that comes up a lot, and I don't know whether having a woman at the top is going to change the body positivity on the Runway, but this is like, a prevailing conversation in fashion, which is that up the majority of the consumers of fashion. There's all these statistics that I think some of them we've heard over and over again. There's no one to point it back to, like, the 80% of that. Women make up 80% of consumers or something like that. But there's. There's a plethora of research that shows we buy most of the stuff. When it comes to the major fashion houses, there are not many women creatives at the top. How does that map out on the Runway? And then would it be any different if there were a woman designing these things? I don't know.
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C
I think it makes everybody a little more prime to look at, you know, a design at like. Like the Alaia dress or, you know, the Margiela mouthpieces, and feel like it feels sexist because it's coming from a male designer. I think if it's coming from a woman, it. You know, and what, like, whether it obviously could. Women can do sexist things too. Internalized misogyny is very real. But I think that it just. There's already this feeling of women aren't represented at the top. Women aren't the ones getting these big jobs in fashion. You know, of the. I think it was 15 or 14 debuts this season, only two came from. From women. And or in the past year. I think the only debut from a woman this season was Louis Trotter at Bottega. And again, like you said, I don't think it would solve every problem to have, you know, women designers. There are plenty of wonderful male designers who design beautiful clothes for women, but I think that it just primes people to be a little more on the lookout for sexism or feeling like it. It already exists in the industry, and they sort of. It's a little easier to notice when you're already primed to think that the industry behaves that way 1000%.
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B
I think it was Robert Williams, our luxury editor at large, that said on our show that the perception of design is very much colored by who presents it. And so right away, when, you know, you know, a woman in a. I don't know, a mouthpiece that's holding it open is just coming from a man, it might make you think of it differently.
- [10:45]
C
Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I think that, like, intent really matters. And obviously, like, even if that wasn't, it's not to say that just because it's from a man, there's ill intent. But I think it's easier for people, for women to read it that way if they don't have, you know, the explanation. They're not inside their head in that sense or that sort of thing.
- [11:03]
D
I also think that, you know, there's. There is a track record of media at large, whether it's institutional media or just online discourse, of being pretty unfair to. To women and female creative directors, like people like Virginie Viard and Maria Grazia Chiuri and the sort of criticisms that they've faced around being, you know, maybe boring, even though they've had great commercial success. We mentioned that in the story, but it's difficult because that dynamic is hard to point to in a quantitative way.
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B
Yeah, I want to talk about that tension a little bit, actually, because you said this earlier, which is that people wanted to probably see a more wearable Runway this time because of all the pressure to be commercially viable. And maybe that's driving some of the criticism. Why is it that when women do that as designers, they get this boring label? Have we gotten any further to understanding why that is?
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C
Yeah, I think it's such an interesting and, like, a fine balance between, you know, like we say in the story, fantasy and function. Like, fashion is obviously, like, at its core, especially luxury fashion, about creating a fantasy and, you know, getting people to dream, and that's what justifies the, you know, the high prices and that sort of thing. But at the same time, fashion is also a functional object, especially for the women wearing it. I think that, you know, a male designer and a woman designer designing women's Wear. They obviously approach it from like two different life experiences. Like, women actually know what it's like to have to live their lives in these clothes. I'm sure that informs their design choices. I think male designers can bring in a little bit more of like a, I guess like on the outside perspective because they're not maybe wearing the clothes that they're designing. I think that both approaches have their advantages. But yeah, I definitely think that it's this fine line. And I think that women oftentimes, just like in our society, I mean, this goes far beyond fashion, are more vulnerable to criticism. And you know, people like pick a little bit more. And so I think it makes sense that, you know, we see that come through in fashion too. It comes through in a lot of different industries.
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A
Yeah.
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D
Women have to always break through this perception of being frivolous.
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C
Yes.
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D
In every single industry. Right. In literature, in art, certainly in fashion. Like, you know, Rei Kawakubo is like a great example of a female designer who has operated at this like, very high concept level for decades. And she's a legend, she's an icon. But there are so few female designs, designers that have been able to achieve that kind of acclaim. And the more that I think about that, the more I'm just like, that's kind of fucked up, right?
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C
Totally.
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D
Because like, I do want to. My first inclination is to defend the artistic license of the designers that we saw in Paris, in Milan especially, as they are carving out their vision, like for the first time, their debuts. And I want to say, hey, like, this is fashion, like, you know, go nuts. But then I'm like, the more that I think about this history of, wow, there really hasn't been women held in this kind of regard. The more I'm just like, I don't know, there's just so many different angles that we can approach this conversation. And then another piece of it that we touched on in this very short story story is that in New York there's always been this very commercial angle and in New York there are more women led brands. And New York has always felt like the less serious, younger sibling to Milan and Paris. Right. But it's a lot of these New York based brands now that are driving growth in fashion because it's women designers designing clothes for women. And like, that's what I've been hearing in the social circles that, you know, I've been in, in the industry. And I'm sure, Diana, you've heard the same things, especially in like the last two seasons.
- [15:17]
C
Definitely, definitely.
- [15:18]
B
But on that point, where does the spectacle actually fit into the equation? Right. You mentioned some of the, even the, the backlash that some of these designers got came from TikTok, Kat. Right, so. So there is a, an element of what you send down the Runway. Needing to succeed on TikTok or Instagram, needing to make someone pause when they're scrolling. What is the right formula of spectacle on a Runway versus commerciality? And how do designers strike that? Men or women?
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C
Yeah, I think that there's, there's a balance that, that definitely can be achieved and we see brands do it. I mean, I think Matthew's Blasi's debut for Chanel is a great example. Those clothes felt very wearable, but at the same time, you know, this setting in the Grand Palais with all the planets, you know, it felt very otherworldly. And, you know, there were pieces that were fun and, and not something like the fringed hats that, you know, you probably wouldn't wear that on the street. But then the skirts or the dresses felt wearable. They felt like something people could wear in real life. You know, Kate is a New York brand like Kat referenced, run by a woman that I think is really known for creating these, you know, great sweaters, jeans, pieces that feel really wearable. And their shows always feel, you know, you walk in the room and there's always like a mood and a setting and they work hard clearly, to set that stage. But then, yeah, the clothes that come down the Runway are, you know, maybe not how people would style it on, in their day to day lives. It's maybe a little bit more dramatic, but there's pieces that feel very wearable and I think that just there's, there's definitely a way to marry both.
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D
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I actually don't. You know, maybe there, there doesn't need to be a spectacle at all. Like, for the biggest brands in the world. There is, of course, immense pressure to be culturally relevant. But I think for smaller niche, like cult following types of labels, a lot of New York City brands going after your customer doesn't require these, like, big viral moments. You know, it's really being in the same room as your customer and catering to them.
- [17:24]
B
And there are designers, Kat, that probably do a good job at this, that land somewhere in the middle that have a little bit of maybe bells and whistles, but they're very wearable. Right. And even in a market like New York that is sometimes accused of being too commercial.
- [17:37]
D
Yeah, absolutely. I think that for these smaller brands that have a very specific customer Segment in mind, it's really not about spectacle. It's about being in the same room as their. As their customers. And brands like Kallmeier in New York, TWP has done a really great job of it. And even Simone Bellotti's debut for Jill Sander, I think that collection achieved that. Really laser focused on that Jill Sander woman. I thought that was fantastic. A very commercial vision, but also so just aesthetically on point.
- [18:20]
B
I would be remiss not to say I think a lot of these, though, emerging designers struggle with this. Right? Like, if you're doing a Runway show, you're probably already not in the room with most of your customers. Like, how do you get that to translate from the 100 people in that room to the people that are going to see it on social media? I think it's very hard to break through that noise. I think it's a real. It's a real challenge. I think there is an. There is a place for some spectacle. I just don't know if there's. I don't know that it has to be people in straitjackets necessarily.
- [18:47]
C
I think even just, like, really good styling on the Runway can make such a difference. Like, unique styling or, you know, like, I feel like, for me, a show resonates the most when I see, like, every model. I'm like, I would want to wear that. Like, that's just so chic and that sort of thing. And obviously, like, I'm a woman, so I'm looking at it through the lens of, like, would I wear this or not? But, yeah, I think that good styling can make a big difference too.
- [19:09]
B
And beauty, right? Like, you could play. I'm sure women creatives think about the hair and the makeup and the other things that gets a woman's attention. That's beyond the clothes. That puts the whole thing together. That's a big part of the equation, too, totally.
- [19:21]
C
And. And good staging and, like, and really putting on a show. I think if you, like, have all those ingredients and then just, like, good clothes that are. Are styled well and that sort of thing, it. It does add up to a nice experience that, you know, people enjoy and get people excited about a brand.
- [19:40]
B
We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.
- [19:47]
A
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- [20:59]
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- [22:12]
B
So I want to switch to this little lightning round version that we've been doing lately on the debrief, which is like, you know, your, your moment to give us your best consultative advice. Quick and dirty. I think fashion, by the way, is going to continue to probably reflect where we're at in the world. So you're seeing a lot of the tension between equity and all of these things play out in real time in the industry. I think the consumers are reacting to it, the editors are acting, reacting to it. And it's just, it's just bigger than our industry even is. So Kat And Diana are CEOs of a fashion brand or a major one? Let's make it a major major fashion brand. What are two structural changes you'd make tomorrow to help ensure that the Design process centers on women's lives. So at Diana Pearl, I don't even. What's Diana Pearl llc, Women's Ready to Wear brand. Two structural changes you'd make tomorrow?
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C
I think I would start hiring more women is always a good place to start. You know, there. I think there's some statistic about how like 75% or, you know, I'm the majority of fashion school graduates are women, and then that's not represented in the top ranks. So I think, you know, supporting women in their careers, hiring women, and also just like, listening to women. So I don't know if that's like a structural change, but whether it's doing focus groups, talking to your consumer, you know, listening to the feedback you get on social media, I think that's a reason that a lot of small brands are able to, like, a. Like a Kalmier or a twp. They have that close relationship with their consumer. They know what they're looking for. You know, I think that just, like, listening to the customer and also just really respecting their opinion, what they say, understanding what their practical needs are, and how that fits in with the larger dream and creating that fantasy. I think really just listening to women both internally and externally is, like, the number one most important thing.
- [24:03]
D
I agree with that. I would say, like, I think internally is where, in terms of, like, the most efficacy one could achieve is, like, inside my company, I can improve the lives of my employees the most. Right. And that's. That's where I would start hiring, benefits, mentorship. And then beyond that, I think female interpersonal relationships. It's. That is a very interesting topic that I'd like to explore because we talk about sexism at the workplace, but then there's also a lot of, I think, internalized sexism among women. Like, we haven't talked about this at all in this episode. Maybe for another time. But, like, I've been thinking a lot recently about the way that we antagonize, like, the girl Bosses of the 2020s and how actually all the, like, the DTC male founders were pretty much, like, unscathed, like, still today. And I've been thinking a lot about this, and now we've seen, like, some of the girl bosses returning. But that was, like, pretty. It was pretty nasty how the media was so culpable in just being so eager to, like, put those women down. And, like, I feel like we were all, like, sort of complicit in joining in on that very reductive narrative. And I think this is a big topic that like this, like, progressive media rhetoric hasn't really confronted with nuance. And I think that this is like the next big feminist topic.
- [25:47]
B
I think if Brian were here, he would assign you that story. I'm not in a position to say you should write that, but that's a cliffhanger for the next episode of the debrief to unpack. I also have another lightning round question. If both of you, outside of your Diana Pearl llc, fashion, women's wear brands and Cats brands, if you were, if you were advising a creative director tomorrow, what would your 90 day plan to prove you understand what women want to buy? What would that plan be? 90 day plan if you were the consultant to a creative director right now to prove that they understand what women want to buy?
- [26:19]
C
I mean, I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying before. Just like, I mean, I want them, I want that creative director in the next 90 days, like, talk to a different, like every day, call up one of their, like, top clients and like, have an hour long conversation with them about, you know, what they're looking for in their clothes and, you know, what has really hit the mark. And because I think there are just little things of even like, you know, does this bag hold your laptop? Do these pockets of the jacket, can it fit your phone? Or, you know, is the like the line okay, the fit. Like, I think really just talking to people is the most to, to women specifically is the most important thing, like I said before, so I feel like not to just repeat my answer, but I think that that would be the 90 day plan. And then I guess, yeah, at the end I'd be like, give me a report or something.
- [27:08]
B
No, I think that's you're doubling down on what I think is the important thread here. It was something that funny enough, in the Kim Kardashian cover story, she talked about this to me that she does, does these tests in the fitting room where she checks for back fat and like that A man would never, may never think to do that. May never think to do that. And maybe he's not asking women. Sergio Hudson, I didn't mention him earlier, but as a man who designs women's clothing, he talks a lot about this. It's not just talking to women, but different women. Like, he dresses Sunny Houston like a host on the View. He dresses WNBA women. Like, the ability to broaden the aperture of who should be in the conversation as a woman, I think is also important. Kat, you get the last piece of advice. You're the consultant.
- [27:49]
D
Okay. I'M so glad because I've been thinking I would have a very specific assignment. I would say to my creative director, okay, go to the data team and they will give you whatever information you would like about the last five, 10 years of sales data, of customer insights. And then I want you to take this data and create for me a profile of our customer or two profiles of two customer archetypes. And then based on those two profiles or one profile or five profiles, give me a model. Like give her a name, give her a job, and then create a set of products for her. Really just imagine that customer. Imagine her lifestyle. What's her income bracket, how much money is she going to spend and what is she going to buy and how are you going to dress her?
- [28:39]
B
Oh, that's good. You are hired, both of you.
- [28:43]
C
Also, an important note that just like women aren't a monolith, like Kat said, like there might be like, you know, like you one brand could have one type of customer, another brand could have a totally different type of customer. So it's not, I think that's why it's really about listening to a larger number of people, like thinking about, okay, what's this woman's lifestyle like? It's not, not all women are the same. Not all women want the same thing. So it's really important to, to remember that as well.
- [29:07]
B
And some women may want a straight jacket or a, to wear a man's naked body as a bodysuit suit. You never know. Diana and Kat, thank you so much for joining today.
- [29:17]
D
Thank you, Sheena. What a fun conversation.
- [29:20]
C
Yeah, thank you, Sheena.
- [29:21]
B
Please be sure to check out Diana and Kat's article Does Fashion Know what Women Want at businessofashion.com these and other stories are available to BoF Professional subscribers only and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to the debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Brea. I'm Sheena Butler Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And now a next level moment from AT&T business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be.
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