← The Business of Fashion Podcast
The Business of Fashion Podcast
How Fashion Learned to Love The Real Housewives
00:21:16
Once dismissed as lowbrow, “The Real Housewives” has quietly transformed into fashion’s guilty pleasure. Diana Pearl joins The Debrief to unpack how reality TV’s most famous franchise found itself embraced by brands, consumers and even luxury insiders.
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- [00:00]
Fiji Water Spokesperson
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- [01:01]
Brian Baskin
Hello and welcome to the Debrief from the business of Fash, where each week we delve into Our most popular BoF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm executive editor Brian Baskin.
- [01:12]
Sheena Butler Young
And I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young. From bold reality TV moments to viral memes and unforgettable wardrobe statements, it's hard to ignore the impact of the Real Housewives on popular culture. Yet in the nearly two decades since the first franchise aired and before Bethenny Frankel, Lisa Vanderpump and Nene Leakes became household names, it's been equally difficult to ignore that the fashion industry has been targeted for the party. But that's starting to change. What was once dismissed as too controversial or low brow is slowly earning approval from a growing number of fashion labels and even, dare I say it, the hard to please luxury crowd.
- [01:49]
Brian Baskin
Joining us to discuss this transformation is BoF Senior News and features editor Diana Pearl. Hi, Diana. And welcome to the Debrief podcast.
- [01:57]
Diana Pearl
Hi guys. Excited to be here.
- [01:59]
Brian Baskin
I know you are. I know this is your favorite topic.
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Diana Pearl
Yes, especially to discuss this topic.
- [02:04]
Brian Baskin
Diana has been pitching this story for how long have you worked here?
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Diana Pearl
Four years. But I will say I feel like it's probably been the last like 6ish months.
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Brian Baskin
Okay, yeah, if you say so. Now, to back up, I think it's probably the case that you either know everything about the Housewives or you saw the title of this episode and listened to Sheena's intro and said, who is Lisa Vanderpump again? So for those elite listeners who do not know anything about these people, set the stage here. Who are the Housewives?
- [02:33]
Diana Pearl
So the Real Housewives is a reality TV franchise on Bravo in the U.S. i know, it is on other networks in other countries that basically the concept and the premise is like a peek into the lives of wealthy women in these sort of elite or exclusive areas. So it started with Orange county almost 20 years ago in 2006, and then expanded to New York, eventually Beverly Hills, Atlanta, we've seen more recently Salt Lake City and Potomac. So it really like taps into a. The, like, local culture of that area. Like in Salt Lake, there's a lot of talk about Mormonism and how that impacts their lives. In Beverly Hills, you have people like Lisa Rinna, who were. Or Denise Richards who were actresses. You know, it really like reflects the local culture of the city and really just gives a peek into the lives of these women who are extremely compelling to watch.
- [03:27]
Sheena Butler Young
It's so funny because you described all these things, like really cool cities and elite women with like, social circles. It makes sense to me that fashion would love this. This sounds like a lot of fashion themes, but however, that's not the case. What is fashion's relationship with reality TV as you see it?
- [03:44]
Diana Pearl
I think fashion has long had, like, a bit of a complicated relationship with reality tv. You know, when it was first coming on the scene in like the 2000s, and I feel like at that point it felt very sort of experimental. And there definitely was a feeling that it was low brow. And especially with the case of the Real Housewives, these women weren't seen as necessarily like luxury upper crust, you know, aspirational. I think to people in the industry, however, to people at home, these women have always been aspirational. You know, if you're a person in middle America, looking at a woman who lives in a mansion in Orange county or Beverly Hills is extremely aspirational. So I think that it's been complicated, but it's changed over time because reality TV has just become so much more part of the culture. It's not this fringe thing that it was in the 2000s. It's very much now like a tested medium and one that's just continued to become more and more popular.
- [04:40]
Brian Baskin
And what was the Housewives role in that shift? Because I think you're right, it was seen as very tawdry, I think by a lot of the same people who were dictating how things went in the fashion world. And there's been a total, maybe not a total 180, but a. We'll call it a 130, you know, almost total turnaround here.
- [04:57]
Diana Pearl
I think that a big thing that changed things was the Kardashians, because as we all know, The Kardashians, for a long time were not embraced by the fashion industry. And then in the 2010s, that started to change. And I think that really opened the door to, like, okay, there is potential in reality tv, people feel connected to these people. And I think that also people started, like, watching the shows themselves. And a lot of the interviews I did for this story, people said, you know, I would go to a show and like, a housewife would say, I would go to a fashion show and people would tell me how much they loved the show. So even if people weren't, like, embracing it publicly, they definitely were watching it and enjoying it at home. And I think that that guilty pleasure has just sort of like, come out of the shadows a little bit.
- [05:42]
Sheena Butler Young
What about the fashion of the Housewives? How would you describe? I. I'm sure it varies from city to city. New York is a more fashion forward cast, and so is Beverly Hill generally. How is their fashion sense perceived?
- [05:54]
Diana Pearl
I think that fashion has become such a bigger part of the show, and that's really what, like, sparked this idea in the first place. Because I'm not a long, long time Housewives fan. I've been into it maybe for the last, like 3ish years. So I binged it. And watching it, like, back to back, you really see the shift between, in the early 2010s, maybe they have a Chanel bag or a pair of Chanel earrings, but they're not wearing head to toe. Designers. Fashion doesn't play as big of a role in, like, the plots of the show. The reunion looks are very simple, and now it plays a huge role. They're all decked out in designer goods. Designers play a role in the show of, like, people talk about clothes. There's plot points around, you know, this dress costs this much money, or did she buy that diamond necklace? It's just become a character in the show in and of itself. And people are more into the Housewives clothes now. There's Instagram accounts that follow everything they wear. They post their own clothes on their Instagrams. The reunion looks, it's like a huge thing now. The reveal of what they wear, and they wear these gorgeous gowns. It's just become much more a part of the fabric of the show. It was always, like, present, but now it's, you know, you can't ignore it. And a lot of these women have gotten into fashion. And, you know, I think about Tamara Judge on oc She's a longtime housewife. I think she's like the longest running housewife she was wearing Mugler in a confessional and talking about her Mugler outfit. And I think about 10 years ago, I don't think she knew what Mugler was. It just wasn't a part of the culture of the show. In the same way.
- [07:19]
Brian Baskin
That's so interesting because I so my experience with Housewives, and I'd love to hear you two kind of how you've engaged with the show, but I watched a few of the original seasons back in the late 2000s and then I kind of fell off. And the shows like that I have watched more recently were things like selling Sunset, where I did notice that head to toe, vivid, very loud, very I am wearing these designers look at me looks that I did not remember from the Housewives. And it's interesting that, that they've adopted that as well and really said, you know, we're going to be brand ambassadors for these labels, whether they like it or not.
- [07:54]
Diana Pearl
Definitely, definitely.
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Sheena Butler Young
It's interesting because there was a point in your story, Diana, about whether or not these women pay for the clothes or they're given to them to, like, wear on the show, which is also a testament to how influential a person is or isn't, as the fashion industry sees it. How has that shifted? Like, are they buying the clothes or designers actually willing to loan or give them samples so that they can be almost advertisements?
- [08:17]
Diana Pearl
I think that that is also something that has really like, changed the game on Housewives is that they've cast more of these women who are, you know, like fashion people in their personal lives. You know, you look at someone like Sutton Strack who goes to couture shows and regularly wears couture. Or Bronwyn Newport, who is a recent addition to the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. She's a private client at Dolce and Gabbana and Moschino. Like, they just have more of these fashion big wigs, so to speak, and people, you know, these top clients that, as we all know, are extremely important.
- [08:50]
Brian Baskin
For luxury brands or Jenna Lyons, I mean, is the big example, right? I mean, that's like a literal, like fashion first person who's now a housewife instead of the reverse.
- [08:59]
Diana Pearl
The New York cast, generally, they rebooted the New York cast two or three years ago, and that really is like a fashion focused franchise now. They had Rebecca Minkoff on this past season. Even Jesel Tank, she was a publicist for Carla Otto. And Michael Kors. Side of Silva is a influencer who has worked with a lot of top luxury brands. So I feel like that really gave the show a little more fashion cred, so to speak. And it's sort of just. Yeah, I feel like those seeds were planted maybe in the late 2010s and have really just taken off post. Covid. But, yeah, you cannot understate the New York cast. I feel like they've really, like, entered into the industry and sort of opened that door for. For all the other cast.
- [09:40]
Sheena Butler Young
It also feels like the cast has gotten a little younger. To Brian's question earlier about, like, how did we engage with the Housewives? I started watching. I watched the Housewives in every city I lived in. So when I was in Atlanta, I watched the Atlanta franchise, and I came to New York and I watched the New York Housewives. They were closer to D.C. so I watched the Potomac Housewives. It feels like some of the cast seems to have gotten younger. I wonder what role that plays in making them more of a fashion inspo. We know fashion as an industry is more youth obsessed. Have you seen that?
- [10:08]
Diana Pearl
You know, I think it's a mix. There are cast members that are a little bit older or you're not. Not, you know, old, but, you know, 50s or 60s. There are cast members who are maybe in their 30s. I think it's a mix. I honestly don't think that there's necessarily, like, a huge connection between the age of the cast members and the ones brands are gravitating towards. I think brands are interested in the people who have, like, a loyal fan base, who have a very distinct personality that people love. I also think they're interested in people who feel like a natural fit for them. So an example is Lisa Barlow from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. A big part of her, like, personal brand is she loves luxury. She's always wearing luxury brands. There was a plotline this past season about her, like, throwing a fit about having to fly coach home from a cast trip.
- [10:53]
Brian Baskin
Oh, my God, the horror.
- [10:55]
Diana Pearl
Yeah, you can't imagine, but, like, a moment like that is quintessential Housewives. And she did a partnership with Kerastase, the hair care brand, which is trying to position itself more in the US As a luxury label. So they were like, okay, this is perfect. She had mentioned the brand organically on the show, so there was already that organic connection. And then she also loves luxury. So it kind of goes hand in hand with what they're trying to portray.
- [11:18]
Brian Baskin
And then in terms of the audience for this, I guess if. If. If, you know, a brand wants to partner with the Housewives, who are they.
- [11:25]
Diana Pearl
Trying to reach I mean, something I think is interesting is that the demographics for like the fan base of the Housewives, I think are a lot of the same demographics of people who are very into fashion. Women and gay men definitely make up the majority of the housewives fan base. And I think also for fashion too. I mean, you have a very engaged fan, somebody who's super passionate about like the fans of this show are so passionate. Bravo hosts a Bravo con. It's like once a year or sometimes every other year. And people will just line up. They want to meet these women, they want to see them talk, they buy the things they wear on the show. There's just like such a deep, passionate fan base there. And I think if you want to connect with consumers, you have to meet them where they are. And people of all stripes, like reality tv, you know, it's not something that is necessarily only, you know, a low brow sort of fans, quote unquote, would be into. Lots of smart people watch reality tv. Lots of luxury customers watch reality tv. So I think that there's more of an acceptance of, of like, okay, we need to be where the people are.
- [12:31]
Sheena Butler Young
But for all their success, they haven't quite fully cracked luxury. Right? There's a, a slow adoption of the luxury market to the Housewives. What's the luxury industry's hang up? What do you think their big hang up is now?
- [12:44]
Diana Pearl
I mean, I think a. The Real Housewives is very American show. A lot of the luxury industry is in Europe. It's less of a thing there. So I think that that's part of it. I also think that there is still a bit of that hesitation around the stigma that's connected to reality tv. You know, a lot of people look at it as lesser than scripted or, you know, it's a guilty pleasure or it's low brow. You know, I always say I feel like reality TV makes me smarter in a lot of ways because it's like you're watching, you're like observing. You're like observing human dynamics in a really interesting way. And I'm not someone who's like a longtime reality TV fan, but I'm just. You learn so much about the way people behave. I would say you cannot write characters that are as engaging and compelling and dynamic as real people. So, yeah, I think that there's just sort of that, like maybe a little bit not understanding it and then also just a little bit of a hesitation on the stigma. But I think that generally it's good to like embrace the things your audience embraces. And when We've seen brands embrace the housewives. I think the fans reward them for that. But there's a way to do it. You know, I spoke with Brett Heyman, who's the founder of Edie Parker, which is like a bag brand in New York, and they had Countess Luann, who is a Real Housewife of New York or former Real Housewife of New York, perform at their New York Fashion Week party. And it was a huge hit. They got amazing press, like some of the most highly engaged social media posts. And she said, you know, you really need to lean into the fun of it. You know, maybe you're not going to cast a housewife in your campaign that's going to go on every billboard, but you can do a fun social media campaign. You can lean into. There's. There's a campiness to the housewives, and I think when brands can do that, it's like the sky's the limit.
- [14:21]
Brian Baskin
That really gets to it. The camp factor. I think that's what's holding back housewives from just literally being everywhere. Like, the. I think the Kardashians definitely had a lot of that, and they sort of outgrew it, or I guess that's. That's a whole other podcast, probably. But, I mean, there's a reason, like the luxury brands. You mentioned your story. It's Dolce and Gabbana. It's Moschino in New York Fashion Week. It's Christian Siriano's show that has the most housewives. It's.
- [14:46]
Diana Pearl
It's.
- [14:46]
Brian Baskin
I don't want to say the brands you expect, but it is kind of the brands you expect. And I don't even mean that in a pejorative way. It's just they haven't quite transcended as famous as they are.
- [14:56]
Diana Pearl
Definitely.
- [14:57]
Sheena Butler Young
Probably also the fights, a few of those, like, I don't know if Dior wants someone flipping a table and one of their looks. I think that's a huge factor.
- [15:05]
Brian Baskin
And that happened in my hometown of Cedar Grove, New Jersey. Just shouting at that out there. It's a good restaurant. Lunella's. Check it out.
- [15:11]
Sheena Butler Young
Definitely they're having a moment right now. Maybe like a breakthrough moment. What do you think needs to happen next for the housewives to maintain this momentum if they want to? Like, what do they need to do next? Or is it just a matter of slow and steady in the same direction?
- [15:25]
Diana Pearl
Yeah, I mean, I think that reality TV is only going to become more and more a part of our entertainment landscape. I mean, there's, like, the logistical and practical reasons, it's much easier and less expensive to produce than a scripted show. I think that it has just broken into culture and mainstream culture in a different way. So I really think it is just going to be a slow and steady increase. It's not a fringe thing anymore, but I think that people are waking up to it. Like they're really just realizing. And I think that's something that's so special about the Housewives is that they have that personal connection that you, a consumer, might have with an influencer. Because people watch their lives, they see them. Like I think about some of the things I've watched these women go through. Divorces, custody battles, you know, loss of a parent. Like you really feel like you're along for the ride with these women. But they also have the visibility and the profile of a traditional celebrity. You know, they're on tv, they have millions of followers on Instagram, they're very popular. So whereas an influencer might be a little bit more of a smaller demographic and it's this kind of beautiful, like midway point. So I think that people will keep on waking up to that and keep on realizing, oh wait, this is a lever we can tap. You know, we see fashion brands all the time trying to engage with culture, whether it's sports or the white lotus. This is just another cultural lever that they can pull.
- [16:45]
Sheena Butler Young
We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.
- [16:50]
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- [18:27]
Expedia Spokesperson
You were made to be rechargeable.
- [18:30]
Diana Pearl
We were made to package flights, hotels and hammocks for less Expedia.
- [18:37]
Expedia Spokesperson
Made to travel.
- [18:43]
Sheena Butler Young
So let's play a game. Why don't each of us pick our favorite housewife and then pair them up with a luxury brand that they could do a great partnership with. And I can go first. I'm going to pick as my favorite housewife UBA Hassan. She's with the New York cast. UBA was like a model for. She was like the face of Macy's for a few years, by the way. And then she worked with like, Marc Jacobs and did some big European shows. So she's my favorite housewife because it's newer. It's. It's more relatable to me. She's in New York. She's ambitious, she has a career. She's not uber wealthy, but she's wealthy enough. And I would pair her up with Dior because it's like, feminine, elegant, timeless. It's French luxury powerhouse. I think UBA might speak French. And it's high fashion, Parisian chic.
- [19:32]
Diana Pearl
I love that. Can I give two. I have two thoughts.
- [19:35]
Sheena Butler Young
I don't know Diana.
- [19:39]
Diana Pearl
So my favorite housewife of all time is Carol Radziwill. She's not on the show anymore, but she was on New York for five seasons and she. She is just like the quintessential downtown Manhattan cool girl. She's got great style. She's super smart. She's absolutely the coolest. I would pair her with Kate. I feel like that's the quintessential downtown New York cool girl brand. So she would fit with them perfectly. And then I would do Kyle Richards from Beverly Hills. She's the original Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, the only original one still standing on that franchise. And she is very known for her love of Hermes. She's always carrying a Birkin. I think that would be a fun partnership. She's the quintessential Irma's housewife.
- [20:18]
Brian Baskin
Those are really good answers. And I'm at a disadvantage here because I haven't watched the show in 20 years. But I mean, Countess Luann seems hard to top in terms of housewives. I mean, she'll always be a Real Housewife of New York in my heart, I guess. And I think rather than naming a specific brand or housewife, I'm gonna cheat a bit and say that we're always writing about how designers like Jonathan Anderson and Demna and, you know, they're these cultural magpies, and they collect all these references and put them into their fashion, and it's a mix of high and low. And I think we're gonna see that luxury breakthrough when one of. Maybe not those designers, but someone like that, they're gonna be a Housewives fan, and they're gonna pluck it along with the. The fancy artists and the. And the weird, rich European sport and all that, and combine all that, and they're gonna throw it in the blender with the rest, and we're gonna see, you know, Lisa Rinna walking a Runway, you know, somewhere, sometime. Like, I just. I'm sure that's going to happen.
- [21:10]
Sheena Butler Young
That's good. I could see Sergio Hudson doing that. He's had a few Housewives at his shows, too. He's got. I mean, he's not the. He's not as big of a brand, but he's definitely dabbling and probably will cast one in a show or something.
- [21:21]
Diana Pearl
Yeah. And I think something also that, you know, I've said, but, like, really to be underscored is that the housewives move product. Like, people are invested in them, and they look to them for ideas on what to wear, what to buy. There was a scene a few seasons ago in Beverly Hills where this one woman, Sutton, says to another. She says something about, to another housewife, you know, your ugly leather pants. And she was calling the pants ugly on screen, and they still sold out the next day. Like, they can just move product. Because I think for a lot of people, these women are extremely aspirational. And that's a lot of what, you know, fashion is built on as well.
- [21:56]
Brian Baskin
I mean, to be really cliche, they're kind of the original influencers. Right. I mean, it does sound very similar to. To how we talk about influencers on Instagram or TikTok, but. And they've had the staying power, too. I don't know why. If you've been selling out ugly pants for 20 years, you can't get a Dior deal. But, you know, maybe that's for next time.
- [22:16]
Diana Pearl
Yeah, yeah, they definitely have staying power. And, you know, something I think is interesting is that NBCUniversal, Bravo's parent company, is spinning off almost all of their cable networks, and Bravo is the one that they're holding on to. So I think that really speaks to investment in the channel and just the Bravo platform. It's really like staging events there. It's become this huge world, you know, and other Bravo celebrities are benefiting too. It's not just the Real Housewives. Paige desorbo from Summer House was at the CFDA Awards last fall. It's a universe and there's so much power in tapping that.
- [22:48]
Sheena Butler Young
Also, when you get like a green light from Rihanna, who is a super fan, I think that is like your, that is the ultimate sign that you are going to be embraced by fashion and you probably have some sticking power.
- [22:59]
Diana Pearl
Yeah, a lot of the housewives I talked to said that Rihanna's DM'd them. And it's, you know, there's very high profile fans. Jon Hamm, Jennifer Lawrence.
- [23:07]
Brian Baskin
These are fashion people. I you think one of them could make an intro? Jennifer Lawrence could pick up the phone and. Yeah, I know she's listening.
- [23:15]
Sheena Butler Young
Exactly, exactly. Along with Rihanna. On that note, I think this is a nice spot to end it. This was such a fun conversation. I felt indulged today. Diana, thank you so much, Much, thank you both.
- [23:27]
Diana Pearl
So great to be here.
- [23:28]
Brian Baskin
Please be sure to check out Diana's article How Fashion Learned to Love the real housewives@businessoffashion.com these and other stories are available to BOF Professional subscribers only and you can find the links in the episode's notes. You've been listening to the debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Brea. I'm Brian Baskin.
- [23:48]
Sheena Butler Young
And I'm Sheena Butler Young. We'll be back next week week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:03]
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