What European Luxury Can Learn From American Fashion

Summary

Podcast Summary: What European Luxury Can Learn From American Fashion

The Business of Fashion Podcast
Date: March 25, 2026
Host: Brian Baskin (Executive Editor)
Co-host: Sheena Butler Young (Senior Correspondent)
Guest: Diana Pearl (Senior News & Features Editor)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Business of Fashion’s "The Debrief" examines the shifting landscape in global luxury fashion: European luxury houses, historically the tastemakers, are in a slump, while American brands like Coach, Ralph Lauren, and Tory Burch are experiencing significant creative and commercial revival. The team analyzes what’s driving American resilience, where European brands may have lost ground, and what both can learn from one another.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shift in Luxury Leadership

[01:44 – 03:08]

• European luxury brands have dominated for decades but now face stagnation due to overexposure, price hikes, and creative complacency.
• American brands, once criticized for being too mass market, have retooled strategies, refocused on their core customers, and rebounded impressively.
• Quote [02:11] — Diana Pearl:
  “European brands maybe got a little cocky. They raised prices too much. They maybe let the creative slide a little. ... American brands dealt with a lot of the issues that European brands are dealing with now a decade ago.”

2. Case Study: Coach’s Turnaround

[03:08 – 05:22]

• Coach endured overexposure, particularly through outlet malls, and responded with a patient, decade-long transformation.

• Creative Director Stuart Vevers redefined Coach with youth-driven products, innovative marketing, and an emphasis on “it” bags extended over seasons (rather than rapid product replacement).

• Quote [03:26] — Diana Pearl:
  “I always say Coach was like the first brand I really craved as a kid. ... By college, it had become too ubiquitous. For Coach, it’s really been a decade-plus transformation that they’ve had to be very patient in seeing results for.”

• Adoption of some European tactics (e.g., iterating 'it' bags) while staying youth-focused and relatable.

3. The Importance of the Core Customer

[05:22 – 07:05]

• European brands have lost touch with their core audience, often favoring exclusivity and increased prices at the expense of desirability and creative energy.
• Many luxury creative directors are men, while primary consumers are women, creating a disconnect.
• People seek both excitement and accessibility, and want products that fit into their daily lives.
• Quote [05:47] — Diana Pearl:
  “European brands got a little cocky... lost touch with their core customer... thought they could just hike prices and it would be fine because they had that brand cachet. But cachet can only get you so far.”

4. Retail Experience: Exclusivity vs. Community

[07:05 – 08:55]

• High-end physical retail environments can be intimidating, and exclusionary practices are viral fodder on social media.

• The American approach increasingly favors inclusivity and customer care, while some European brands still emphasize rigid hierarchy and elitism.

• Quote [07:44] — Diana Pearl:
  “Community has been one of the biggest marketing buzzwords... There is nothing that feels community-oriented about denying someone a ribbon after they’ve made a purchase.”

• Incidents like Bethenny Frankel's Chanel shopping experience amplify these issues and drive consumers towards more welcoming brands.

5. Balancing Appeal and Exclusivity

[08:55 – 12:13]

• American brands confront criticism for being insufficiently exclusive; efforts to elevate their image include pulling back on mass-market exposure and focusing on direct sales (e.g., 85% of Tory Burch sales are now direct-to-consumer).
• They aim for sustainable, curated growth instead of rapid expansion.
• Social media’s transparency erodes traditional brand mystique, affecting exclusivity and myth-making for both American and European brands.
• Quote [10:04] — Diana Pearl:
  “If we want to have sustained success, we need to be more thoughtful about how we grow.”

6. Not All American Brands Succeed

[12:13 – 12:35]

• Elevation strategies don’t work for everyone; Calvin Klein struggled with high-end collections, and Michael Kors is cited as an example of commercial success turning into overexposure.

7. Can American Brands Do True Luxury?

[15:16 – 17:26]

• Brands like Khaite and The Row compete at luxury price points and generate demand comparable to European houses.
• Their success is driven by prestigious, beautifully crafted “hero products,” as well as accessible, high-quality basics.
• European ready-to-wear has priced out most consumers; American brands fill the gap with investment-worthy, wearable pieces.
• Quote [15:39] — Diana Pearl:
  “I don’t see people wishing for or lusting after a Dior bag the way they lust after the Row bags... They really play at a luxury price point and have found tremendous success in doing so.”

8. Creative Continuity & Founder-Led Vision

[17:26 – 19:53]

• American brands like Ralph Lauren, Tory Burch, and Khaite still have founder-led or long-tenured creative direction, leading to consistent narratives and clear customer identities.
• Frequent changes in European creative direction can result in brand inconsistency, confusing consumers and diluting long-term loyalty.
• Quote [17:53] — Diana Pearl:
  “Having that consistent aesthetic, that consistent vibe, that consistent ethos is really important to customers.”

9. European Brands Try to Adapt

[19:53 – 21:01]

• European luxury houses, noticing lost traction, have begun introducing more accessible products and resetting price strategies.
• The “ironclad grip” of European brands on defining luxury is loosening—social media exposure, and consumers’ increased desire for individuality, are reshaping notions of status and aspiration.

10. The Role of Myth-Making & Brand Storytelling

[23:01 – 23:39]

• American brands are increasingly successful at creating lifestyle universes—Ralph Lauren being a prime example—that customers want to buy into, even if the products themselves aren’t unique.
• Myth-making, world-building, and a strong creative vision drive authenticity and appeal.

11. Not a Zero-Sum Game—Mutual Influence and Learning

[24:37 – 27:19]

• Leaders from both American and European brands recognize value in the other's approach.
• There’s a growing pride in being an American luxury label—no longer "second best" to Paris or Milan.
• The competitive environment ultimately benefits consumers through better products, improved service, and stronger storytelling.
• Quote [24:58] — Diana Pearl:
  “I think there’s a little bit more pride in being an American fashion brand now and feeling that luxury brands can be born in America... a little bit more of a confidence that maybe didn’t exist 10 years ago.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “European brands maybe got a little cocky. They raised prices too much. They maybe let the creative slide a little.”
  — Diana Pearl (02:11)
• “Coach was like the first brand I really craved as a kid... For Coach, it’s really been a decade-plus transformation.”
  — Diana Pearl (03:26)
• “Community has been one of the biggest marketing buzzwords... There is nothing that feels like community about denying someone a ribbon after purchase.”
  — Diana Pearl (07:44)
• “If we want to have sustained success, we need to be more thoughtful about how we grow.”
  — Diana Pearl (10:04)
• “Having that consistent aesthetic, that consistent vibe, that consistent ethos is really important to customers.”
  — Diana Pearl (17:53)
• “I don’t see people wishing for or lusting after a Dior bag the way they lust after the Row bags.”
  — Diana Pearl (15:39)
• “There’s a little bit more pride in being an American fashion brand and showing that we have a unique skill set.”
  — Diana Pearl (24:58)
• [Playfully] “Maybe it’s the Super Bowl of designer handbags.”
  — Sheena Butler Young (26:35)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:44 – European luxury slump vs. American resurgence
• 03:08 – Coach: a model for patient brand renewal
• 05:47 – Price increases and customer disconnect in Europe
• 07:44 – The luxury customer experience & social media critique
• 10:04 – American brands’ new, thoughtful approach to growth
• 12:13 – Not all brands succeed: Michael Kors & Calvin Klein
• 15:39 – Can American brands deliver true luxury?
• 17:53 – Importance of creative continuity/founder involvement
• 19:53 – European pricing strategies adapt to changing times
• 23:01 – Myth-making, authenticity, and world-building
• 24:58 – Growing pride and confidence in American luxury

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Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of what’s driving the current energy in American luxury fashion, how European houses are trying to catch up, and why both regions have something to learn from each other. The hosts and guest stress that long-term success comes from understanding one’s core customer, carefully controlling brand exposure, and maintaining a strong, authentic creative vision—no matter which side of the Atlantic a label calls home.

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For more in-depth reporting, see Diana Pearl’s article “What European Luxury Can Learn From American Fashion” at businessoffashion.com.

Transcript

[A]

I always think spring is the perfect excuse to dress a little softer and a little bit more romantically. And apparently Macy's fashion experts are saying that pastel dream is the trend. To know right now what I love about it, it's not really going like full head to toe pastel. It's more about those softer details that make an outfit feel fresh and a bit elevated. Think delicate florals, lace ruffles, and sheer layers alongside flowy dresses or tailored pieces in lighter tones. It feels polished, pretty and very spring, but still easy to make your own. And you'll find it all at Macy's.

[B]

Hello and welcome to the debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into Our most popular BoF professional stories with the correspondents who created them.

[C]

Brian.

[B]

I'm executive editor Brian Baskin.

[D]

And I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young. For decades, European luxury houses set the tone for the fashion industry. From Paris to Milan, the biggest names defined what luxury meant and set trends globally. American brands were often dismissed as too mass market to be key players in the fashion conversation.

[B]

But lately, that dynamic seems to be shifting. While European luxury groups are struggling, a number of American fashion brands, including Coach, Ralph Lauren, and Tory Burch, are experiencing a commercial and creative resurgence.

[D]

Our guest today, senior news and features editor Diana Pearl, has been looking at what's behind that momentum and whether European luxury brands might have something to learn from the American playbook. Diana joins us to break down what American fashion is getting right right now. Diana, welcome to the debrief.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[D]

So, Diana, let's start with that broad shift that your piece maps out. European luxury is in the midst of a prolonged slump. Meanwhile, you've got a number of American brands that are having a genuine boom moment. Can you tell us what's changed in the market?

[C]

You know, this story idea really first came to me because obviously we talk so much about the luxury slump here at BoF and it's, you know, constantly top of mind. And at the same time, I was like, wait, but Ralph Lauren's doing really well. Coach is doing really well. Tory Burch is seeing this, you know, Torres sans, as it's been called. And I just thought, okay, what are American brands doing differently that European brands aren't? I think that what has really changed is that European brands maybe got a little cocky. They raised prices too much. You know, they maybe let the creative slide a little. And I think really it all just sort of came together to allow American brands to have this moment because American brands dealt With a lot of the issues that European brands are dealing with now. A decade ago, you know, Ralph Lauren, Tory Burch, Coach were all very overexposed, you know, too heavily present in outlet malls, in wholesale department stores, on off price chains like Nordstrom Rack. So they really had to recalibrate, pull back, think about who is our core customer, who are we really selling to, what do we want this brand to stand for and laser in on that message. And I think that that's something that now European brands really need to do.

[B]

And let's talk about what they've actually done. Why don't we take Coach as an example? Because I mean, to me, I think that's the most dramatic turnaround. Like Ralph Lauren and, and Tory Burch, you know, they'd seen better days, but I don't think they were in quite the level of crisis that Coach was. And now Coach is probably doing better than all of them.

[C]

Yeah, Coach is a great example. I always say that Coach was like the first brand that I really like craved as a, as a kid. Like I remember in middle school, like the girls who had Coach bags were the absolute coolest. And then by the time I got to high school, college, it had just become a little too ubiquitous, overexposed. You could go to, you know, any outlet mall and buy a Coach bag there. And for Coach, it's really been, you know, a decade plus transformation that they've had to be very patient in seeing the results for. Creative director Stuart Vevers joined the brand in 2013. He introduced ready to Wear a few years after that. And the brand has really focused on who is our core customer. And they are now looking to younger customers. They want to be that first luxury bag purchase that someone makes when they're in high school, when they are finally, you know, they get their first job and they save up to buy a nice bag. So everything about the brand is really designed to, to cater to that demographic. Whether it's the celebrity sitting front row at their fashion shows, whether it's the products they make, the marketing that really has this sort of Gen Z irony, whimsicalness to it. You know, the clothes that walk the Runway feel very Gen Z inspired. And their thought is not just, okay, we're going to be a Gen Z brand and grow up with Gen Z. They're like, we want to be a youth focused brand. And also just being a little smarter about product. Chief executive Todd Kahn told me that previously he thinks that they were too quick to, they'd have, you know, a, a bag that did well. And then they would just release a new bag the next season. They would retire that old one. They, they move through product too quickly, whereas now they have bags like the tabby bag, the Brooklyn bag. When they see these silhouettes start to pop off, they find ways to iterate them. And he said that's actually something they took from, from European luxury. So the, the lessons definitely go both ways. But I think that really focusing on that core customer is the key to knowing who you are as a brand. Because when you know who you're catering to, it really makes everything clearer.

[B]

Do you think that European brands, is that what they're missing? Because, you know, like Demna is Mr. Irony. I don't think there's any lack of that at Gucci right now. And you know that like a lot of what you're talking about, like you said, they're basically taking a page from the European brands. Like no one knows how to have an it bag like, you know, Dior or you know, Chanel or Gucci. So I guess, yeah, like what are they missing that coach has figured out here?

[C]

I think it's a little early to say if like Demna's irony and could be great for Gucci. I think it's just a little early to. To say if we'll. We'll see those results. And like I said before, I really do think it is. The European brands got a little cocky and they thought they could raise prices and they just sort of lost touch with that core customer. What they actually want to buy, what they want to wear. You know, there's a lot of criticism around European luxury brands that so many of them are led by male creative directors and yet their business is mostly supported by women's wear bags, you know, items that women buy. Just not creating products that people actually want to buy and incorporate into their lives or provide that sense of like creative just excitement. People don't feel like the it bag is coming from those brands, so they'd rather buy a bag that's much more affordable price or just feels like a more reasonable price. I think that the price point of this is, is very key and just knowing exactly who your customer is, how much they want to spend, what feels like a splurge to them, what feels reasonable and what feels just like completely out of the. You know, I think they, that European brands thought they could just hike prices, hike prices and it would all be fine because they had that brand cachet. But cachet can only get you so far, even when you're some of the Most prestigious brands in the world.

[D]

Can we also talk about the store experience bit? I love the story that Todd Khan tells at the beginning of your story. This anecdote about going into a European luxury store, I think in Florida, buying like some like elevated essentials and then asking for them to tie it up with a ribbon and they basically refused.

[B]

I feel like he had his like Pretty Woman moment, even though he's the CEO coach.

[D]

It very well could have been his Pretty Woman moment. But I do think that that's something that's taken off on social media a little bit too around these luxury store experiences where it's intimidating to people and maybe people feel like they don't want to be subjected to that when they're going to spend a thousand dollars or more. Right?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think about the fact that community has been one of the biggest marketing buzzwords of the last five years. There is nothing that feels like community oriented about denying someone a ribbon after they've made a purchase at your store or, you know, a long line that extends outside of a store door, but then you look in and you barely see anybody in there. You know, I think exclusivity has its place and obviously it's a key component of the luxury puzzle. But I also think it needs to be not just I want to have the status symbol of this brand and be a part of this club. It needs to be like, what do I get out of being a part of this club? Having that sort of like community oriented feeling and feeling like you're welcomed. People don't want to spend their money at a place where they feel like they're being mistreated. And I think like you said, Gina, those mistreatments are a lot more visible now on social media. You know, there was this whole thing last year of Bethenny Frankel going to a Chanel store and she felt like they were rude to her and put them on blast. And people just don't want to go to a store and have someone like look down upon them. I think that that is just something that people are really pushing back on nowadays and that has really changed the calculus as well.

[B]

Do you think Bethenny Frankel would carry a coach bag though?

[C]

Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I also don't think though that she's their target customer, so I don't really think they care.

[D]

I should add that Todd said he was told that they wouldn't give him a ribbon because he did not buy a certain tier of product, FYI. So you need to spend a certain amount, which is, I think, a part of the social media critique of that. If you don't get to go to the AS backroom if you're not in a certain category. Although they do deny some of that. But I think that's definitely. It's got some blowback on social media.

[C]

Definitely, definitely.

[B]

Although this is the knock on those American, quote unquote luxury brands that they're not exclusive enough. And can you really call yourself a luxury brand if anyone can afford you? And, you know, it's. It's a strange balance they have to strike. But, you know, let. Let's get back to what we said in the intro, that the knock on these brands is always that they went too far in that commercial, everyone's welcome direction. Have you seen a movement away from that in any way? As you know, I know Ralph Lauren, for example, has raised prices significantly. I think the others have done the same. Are they trying to move a little more in that European direction when they're doing something like that?

[C]

I think it's less even moving in the European direction, but just more being more thoughtful. I think that in America, you know, there can be this history of, like, when a brand really pops off, they get to scale quickly. They ink all these wholesale partnerships, they do licensing deals, and like, suddenly the brand is everywhere. I mean, I think about, like, Tory Burch in the late 2000s, early 2010s, you know, it just like suddenly it was everywhere. Those Riva flats, the. The bags, the totes, the sandals, like, they were. The brand was everywhere. And obviously that's like a commercially successful path, but it only lasts so long. Like, it's sort of chasing that, like, quick win. And I think that these brands, after having had that, like, big spike, they've realized, okay, we need. If we want to have sustained success, we need to be more thoughtful about how we grow. And, you know, Todd Khan said something to me of, like, we could add, you know, another billion to our balance sheet, you know, every year, but it wouldn't be sustainable growth. They've been able to pull back and think about, again, who is our core customer, you know, how can we be a little bit more elevated, curated? Whether it's, you know, how we show up, like Tory Burch used to be, you know, so present in wholesale, and now 85% of Tory Burch's sales are done directly. That means you get to control how your brand is presented. It's not, you know, on a shelf at a Macy's where everything's kind of like falling over and it doesn't look very elevated and curated. And also I think it's important to note that there is only so much that any brand can do now to control the messaging around their brand because of social media. And I think that like a perfect example of this is Hermes. Like all these processes around buying the Birkins and the Kelly's used to be more of like a if you know, you know, hush hush sort of process. And now it's like there are so many TikTok videos about Hermes and buying an Hermes bag and I got my leather appointment, I got my Birkin Birkin unboxing. It does just take away some of the mystique. So I think that when that happens, you have to do what you can to control the message as much as you can. And I think that's something that the American brands have really realized from their own moments of overexposure a decade or so ago.

[D]

Also, we should say that this isn't working universally for American brands. You've got Calvin Klein that has done their elevated collection, that didn't go so well. Michael Kors is sort of the poster child for like having the very thing that made you big sort of tear you down. There's definitely differences across these brands. It's not, it's not one size fits all, what's working, what's not.

[B]

We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.

[E]

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[F]

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[G]

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[B]

I'm curious, Diana, I mean, how well do American brands do true luxury, you know, at that elevated price point? So think of a, you know, you talk to, you know, the CEO of Kate, there's Amiri wasn't in this story, but I'd cite them as an example. You know, these are brands that are, that are approaching that European luxury price point in many categories. Are they contending, you know, toe to toe with their European rivals?

[C]

Yeah, I mean I think you look at a brand like Kate or the Row and they very sell at a luxury price point. And I mean I can just personally speak to like what I see, you know, in terms of my friends and people I follow on social media and that sort of thing. Like I don't see people wishing for or lusting after a Dior bag the way they lust after the roe bags. Like the roe bags have become, you know, they've just produced. I feel like hit after hit, from the Half moon to the 90s bag to of course the, the Margot, which is, you know, like I feel like people were saying it's the next Birkin, which I think jury's still out on that one. But, but they really play at a luxury price point and have managed to find a tremendous amount of success in doing so. And I think what's interesting about brands like the Row and Kate is that, you know, they have their very special pieces, like in Kate's collection that just showed in February, you know, they had pieces with this beautiful, like monkey illustrations or these sheer dresses with all these like button details, or they'll have these beautiful hand knit pieces where they'll only produce, you know, you know, just a few of them. And. And then they also have like everybody's favorite pair of jeans. And the jeans are still, I think they're about $580, $600. Obviously it's expensive for a pair of jeans, but, you know, you could reasonably like save up and buy those. It's like a nice entry level product for people to experience the brand. And it's just a product that is super wearable, practical. Like everybody needs a great pair of jeans in their closet. You know, the Row, I feel like as well they have so many products like, like the Gala pant, which is just like a pull on pant that people are obsessed with. It's over $1,000 for the pants, but people love them and feel like it's worth that investment. And I feel like a lot of the European brands, the ready to wear prices have just gotten so high that most consumers, unless you're in that top echelon, just aren't even engaging with it.

[D]

The other major difference that your story pointed to sort of between American and European players right now is the continuity, the cultural bit, of course, but also just in the creative director. So you have Ral, Lauren, you have Tory Burch, and you have Kate that like the, the founders are the creative visionaries, how much does that matter to consumers that they're seeing a consistent vision? Like we wrote a lot about that luxury reset and excitement around new designers, but in some ways, Americans are having success with the opposite.

[C]

Yeah, I think that creative continuity plays a big role. And even if consumers don't necessarily know that creative directors are changing or they don't know, you know, about all the creative musical chairs of it all, they see it, you know, they see it in how a brand maybe feels inconsistent from season to season, or the vibe changes every few years as they change creative directors. I think that having that consistent esthetic, that consistent vibe, that consistent ethos is really important to customers. It's important to being able to just like define yourself and know who's the customer you're catering to, who's the woman that you're trying to sell to. And I think that as some of these European luxury brands have just gotten so big, you know, you have to understand inevitably just expand and expand who that customer is. And then you start sort of being like something to everyone, but not everything to someone and you lose a little bit of sight of who you are. I think it's easier in some ways if you have the same creative voice, especially if it's a brand founder like a Tory Burch or Kathryn Holstein, a Kate or of course Ralph Lauren, you know, that really has that vision and it all comes from within them and their brain. I think that that really helps. And that's not to say you can't evolve. Like, I think that Tory Burch is a great example of this. You know, she was very popular in the 2000s, 2010s for her the Riva flats and the logoed items and that sort of thing. And now I feel like she's catering to the girl who loved the Riva flats when she was in college and that was her like splurge birthday gift item. And now she's like a cool 30 something, 40 something adult who, you know, wants a great bag that isn't going to like completely break the bank but still feels super chic and you know, items that feel fun. And she had like great sweaters in her fall collection, but also had these fun like sardine brooches. And I feel like every girl right now is obsessed with fish necklaces. Like she knows how to speak to that customer. So you can still evolve that vision, but it still feels true to who that person is, if that makes sense.

[B]

Now European brands are not taking this lying down. I mean famously, you know, there were all the designer, you know, music Whiskel chairs last year, new creative direction. But also we just did a story about Chanel and Dior's pricing strategy and they're introducing all sorts of, you know, sub €4,000 bags and, and smaller items that are theoretically more affordable. They definitely noticed, I think that there are other brands out there playing in that, in that space below them that are, that are really eating their lunch lately. And, and I'm curious, you know, are we maybe talking about this at the very peak of this American ascendant and perhaps, you know, now that you can get a Dior bag again for less than, you know, God only knows what

[D]

it cost before now it's only $2,000.

[C]

Yeah, you will.

[D]

Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I just always, it's always funny when we do that or like it's so affordable at just $3,500 for the wallet.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well, we've got a very premium audience, right guys? No, but, but I mean, you know, my larger point is just, you know, could we perhaps be about to see the momentum swing in the other direction?

[C]

You know, I personally would be surprised if it completely swings. I think that the issues with the European luxury brand perception go pretty deep. And I think that there is something that has been awakened in a lot of consumers in recent years of realizing like, oh, I don't need to have just like the most expensive bag or I don't need to have a bag just because it says Dior on it. I think that people are, you know, there's been a lot of smaller bag brands that have been having a big boom in the past year. We've seen a lot of brands that people love shopping for ready to wear. Like a brand like Nearly Lotan, which is a very beloved New York based label, launched bags last year. I think that people's eyes have been opened a little. And yes, I think that like, I mean, I think Chanel is having great momentum right now. I think that Dior is having good momentum. Like we, it's not like people are done with European luxury forever. I don't think that's the case at all. But I do think that, that the calculus has shifted a little and I think that European luxury brands have maybe just lost that ironclad grip on being like the only ones who really can make the IT bags, the IT items and just like that top, top tier. I think that the social media of it all and the overexposure has really changed things. And I think that there is now just such a desire to be unique, to have good, like your own personal style. You see it all the time on TikTok. I think it's something that people are really, really craving. Think that that's going to like shift for at least a bit of time to come. How people think about buying from these big luxury labels.

[B]

I do think it's strange. We're talking about, you know, unique, you know, Gen Z wants unique style and they're all buying coach bags. Like I don't know what makes you unique necessarily, or everyone wearing the Ralph Lauren teddy bear on their sweater. Like, you know, great brands, love them but like, I don't know that you're like a special, you know, you know, snowflake, you know, for, for shopping with these brands necessarily any more than with Dior, Chanel.

[D]

Well, maybe this is where American brands can borrow from their European contemporaries and just do the whole myth making thing. Maybe that's working for them. Brian the myth making of it all that you get to be definitely with your one of 20,000 teddy bear sweaters.

[B]

Well, that's the whole, that's the whole thing we haven't really talked about here that Diana does a great job of talking about in her story. I mean, Ralph Lauren, you know, epitomizes this whole world building concept. Like maybe you're not totally unique for buying that, that polo shirt, but you are buying into something that feels authentic and, and different than other brands that sell polo shirts with logos on them.

[C]

Definitely, definitely. And I think this is also where that creative continuity plays a role. Like if you can have that really strong vision, if that does a lot to sell to consumers who are really are craving, like you said, Brian, that authenticity. And I think when you have the creative directors that, you know, shift so often, it's a little harder to really see that vision through and build that vision. I mean, you think about Coach with Stuart Reavers like he was at the brand for over five years, almost a decade. I feel like before they really started seeing that turnaround happen, like it takes time. Ralph Lauren put their turnaround strategy in place in 2016. And I feel like it's been within the last, you know, four years that we've really seen them start to take off again. So I think that it really does take time. And when you have that shareholder pressure that a lot of these, you know, giant European luxury companies do, and obviously Americans have it too, it just can be hard sometimes to see that vision through. There's, there's a lack of patience sometimes to, to see if something really has the legs to take off.

[B]

I'm wondering, Diana, you, you spoke with practically everyone for the, this story. You talked to, you know, Pierre Yves, the CEO of Tory Burch. Tory Burch herself, CEO of Kate, CEO of Coach. Do they buy into the premise of this story? Do they see it as an us versus them or that America, you know, has something to, to prove when it comes to luxury fashion?

[C]

I think it's less of an us versus them. And I think all of them said, you know, there are things European brands do extremely well. And you know, you look at Perry Eve's from Troy Burch, he was the head of the LVMH fashion group for, for a number of years. So he's really seen it on, on both sides of the coin. So I think that it's definitely not an us versus them, but I think there's a little bit more pride in being an American fashion brand now and feeling that luxury brands can be born in America. American Brand, you know, be more than just these overexposed ultra commercial businesses. I think there is just, yeah, a little bit more pride in being an American fashion brand and showing that we have, you know, a unique skill set or not. We. I'm not an American fashion brand owner, but I am an American.

[D]

You can be manifesting.

[C]

You can be manifesting. Yeah, just, I think there's a little bit more. More pride. And I spoke to Stephen Cole from the cfda, and he said the same thing, you know, that there's just a little bit more feeling, like a little bit more of a confidence that Maybe didn't exist 10 years ago when sort of these brands were at their, you know, I feel like European luxury brands were really on the ascendant and these brands were a little bit more in that struggling place of figuring out what's next. How do we regain our cool factor, our it factor.

[D]

I think that's a nice note to end on also that I, as a lot of economists say that when it gets competitive like this, even if they're saying that it's not a competition in that way, it's supposed to be good for the consumers in the end.

[B]

Right.

[D]

We get the better prices, the better, more creative products and storytelling. So maybe it all works out. They should compete. They should go neck and neck like it's the super bowl of, of designer handbags.

[C]

Totally, totally. And I think it is, like, it's an important lesson and reminder that, like, there is something to be gained from every approach. And I think, like, you know, if you went by the traditional American playbook of, you know, 15, 20 years ago, of just like, expand, expand, expand, do as much as you can to grow the business. Clearly, that's not a great strategy either. They maybe took a page from the luxury, the European playbook of, like, being a little bit more thoughtful and curated and focusing on that creative vision. And then I think maybe the Europeans fell, which I think it's very easy to, like, fall prey to this, you know, growth, growth, growth path. And now they're realizing, okay, maybe now we need to pull back and look at what the Americans have been doing. So I think that there's. There's value to every approach, and I think it's important to remember that.

[D]

Well, Diana, thank you so much for joining us today.

[C]

Thank you so much for.

[D]

Be sure to check out Diana's article, what European Luxury Can Learn from American [e-mail] these and other stories are available to BoF Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes you've been listening to the debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Brea. I'm Sheena Butler Young.

[B]

And I'm Brian Baskin. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Foreign.

[G]

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