Am I Too Sensitive? Or Not Sensitive Enough? -Jonathan Pokluda

Summary

The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast Episode Summary: "Am I Too Sensitive? Or Not Sensitive Enough?" featuring Jonathan Pakuta Release Date: June 17, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast, host Candace Cameron Bure delves deep into the theme of sensitivity within the context of faith, family, and purposeful living. Joined by guest co-host Jonathan Pakuta and Lev Bure, Candace navigates the delicate balance between being overly sensitive and becoming desensitized in today's rapidly changing cultural landscape.

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1. The Dynamics of Sensitivity

The episode kicks off with light-hearted banter about height differences among the hosts ([03:03]-[05:10]). While this conversation serves as a warm-up, it subtly introduces the idea of perception versus reality—mirroring the overarching theme of sensitivity versus desensitization.

Notable Quote:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "People always go, wow, I didn't know you were that tall." ([03:18])

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2. Navigating Cultural Influences

Candace transitions into a discussion about the overwhelming presence of satanic and sexually charged themes in modern culture. She shares a personal anecdote about experiencing intense vibrations from SpaceX rocket launches in Waco, Texas, initially mistaking them for signs of divine intervention ([10:25]-[12:14]).

Notable Quote:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "There were so many references to spells, to witchcraft, to satanic ideologies... All around us." ([15:24])

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3. Spiritual Warfare and Desensitization

The conversation deepens as Candace introduces the concept of spiritual warfare, emphasizing how gradual exposure to sin can lead to desensitization. She uses the metaphor of a frog in slowly heated water to illustrate how incremental moral compromises can trap individuals spiritually ([14:00]-[19:00]).

Notable Quote:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "Where are you accepting or being okay or being desensitized towards some of these things?" ([20:58])

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4. Pursuing Holiness Amidst a Fallen World

Lev Bure and Jonathan Pakuta discuss the importance of maintaining holiness without slipping into legalism. They explore the tension between personal convictions and cultural norms, advocating for a balanced approach that honors God while engaging compassionately with others ([19:00]-[24:44]).

Notable Quotes:

• Lev Bure: "For it is written be holy because I am holy." ([19:17])
• Candace Cameron Bure: "My word this year is holiness." ([20:09])

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5. Handling Relationships with Non-Believers

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to strategies for Christians interacting with non-believers who may not share the same convictions. Candace and Jonathan discuss maintaining love and respect while holding firm to one's faith, emphasizing honest dialogue and mutual understanding ([38:36]-[43:51]).

Notable Quote:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "Don't mistake where we disagree. I'm not going to interpret the way you disagree with me as hate." ([43:51])

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6. Managing Blind Spots and Accountability

The hosts highlight the concept of blind spots—areas in one's life that go unnoticed but may lead to spiritual compromise. They advocate for accountability partners and small groups to help identify and address these vulnerabilities, ensuring continuous spiritual growth ([31:15]-[32:41]).

Notable Quote:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "Go to the person who's going to be the most honest with you and ask them, what do you think my blind spots are?" ([31:15])

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7. Listener Q&A: Understanding Divine Influence and Evil Spirits

Towards the end of the episode, Candace, Jonathan, and Lev address a listener's question about whether dark spirits sent by God, as described in the Old Testament, are still active today. They affirm that only good is from God and discuss God's sovereignty in allowing challenges for redemptive purposes.

Notable Quote:

• Lev Bure: "Only good is from God." ([44:42])

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8. Practical Steps for Spiritual Renewal

Jonathan Pakuta outlines a four-step formula for spiritual freedom: prayer, confession, repentance, and discipleship. He emphasizes the necessity of bringing hidden sins to light and establishing strongholds to prevent the devil from gaining a foothold.

Notable Quote:

• Jonathan Pakuta: "To find freedom, it's prayer, confession, repentance, and then discipleship." ([28:25])

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Conclusion

In this thought-provoking episode, Candace Cameron Bure and her co-hosts provide listeners with valuable insights into maintaining spiritual sensitivity in a world rife with moral challenges. They encourage proactive measures such as accountability, honest self-reflection, and steadfast faith to navigate the complexities of modern life while honoring God.

Key Takeaways:

• Gradual exposure to sin can lead to spiritual desensitization.
• Maintaining holiness requires a balance between personal convictions and cultural engagement.
• Accountability and community support are essential in identifying and addressing blind spots.
• Understanding God's sovereignty helps in navigating life's challenges and recognizing His redemptive plans.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Candace Cameron Bure: "People always go, wow, I didn't know you were that tall." ([03:18])
• Candace Cameron Bure: "There were so many references to spells, to witchcraft, to satanic ideologies... All around us." ([15:24])
• Lev Bure: "For it is written be holy because I am holy." ([19:17])
• Candace Cameron Bure: "My word this year is holiness." ([20:09])
• Candace Cameron Bure: "Don't mistake where we disagree. I'm not going to interpret the way you disagree with me as hate." ([43:51])
• Lev Bure: "Only good is from God." ([44:42])
• Jonathan Pakuta: "To find freedom, it's prayer, confession, repentance, and then discipleship." ([28:25])

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a compelling resource for listeners seeking to deepen their spiritual awareness and navigate the fine line between sensitivity and desensitization. Candace and her guests offer practical advice grounded in faith, making it a must-listen for those committed to living a life of purpose and holiness.

Transcript

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Most often it's towards licentiousness, which is licentiousness.

[Lev Bure]

We talked about that last night on our date night. Yeah, licensure.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Okay, ladies, let's talk about our health. If you've been feeling off, low energy, mood swings, brain fog, it might be more than just life. I recently got my labs done through Joy Women's Wellness and it was incredibly eye opening. They tested my hormones, vitamins, inflammation markers, the works. I found out that my liver needed a little love, so I was recommended NAC and milk thistle. What I love about Joy is that they don't just look at normal ranges. They focus on helping you get to optimal. It's a refreshing approach to women's health and their telehealth team was so helpful and kind in explaining every detail and creating a plan just for me. God gave us these amazing bodies and caring for them is part of honoring that gift. If you're going through perimenopause, menopause, or just want answers, don't guess. Go to joyandblokes.com Candace for 50% off your labs. Joy is spelled J O I. It's simple, personalized, and delivered right to your door. Think your doctor may be missing something or just tired of not feeling yourself? Get the answers you're looking for? Go to joyandblokes.com Candice to order your labs and receive 50% off today. Hi friends. I know life can feel heavy at times and we all need reminders of God's love and strength, so mark your calendars. My devotional 100 Days of Joy and Strength will be available on June 24, but you can pre order now. My friends at Zondervan created a fresh new edition just for you. This devo has daily encouragement, Bible verses and prayer prompts to help you stay grounded and hopeful even when life is tough. And there's more good news coming this October, my brand new devotional Rise and Renew comes out. Are you in? Join me on this 100 day journey of faith. Check out the link in the show notes to order yours today and remember, it's coming to stores on June 24. Life is like a roller coaster, but it's so much better when we go through it together. Welcome to the Candace Cameron Bure podcast. We're here to share conversations about life's challenges, celebrations and everything in between. Season 10 is called you Story has a villain with my guest co host Jonathan Pakuta and my son lev Bureau on YouTube. Click below to subscribe, then tap the bell so you'll never miss an Episode. Come join us.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Let's go. We're back at it. Come on.

[Lev Bure]

You know, a thought that just crossed my mind. Do people know how tall you are?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

No.

[Lev Bure]

Like, I met JP for the first time and you're like a whole foot. Like. How tall are you exactly?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

6 7.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

You're 6 7.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So people always go, wow, I didn't know you were that tall.

[Lev Bure]

For the record, I'm 5 6. So JP is over one foot taller than me.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Who I didn't realize you were 6 7.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Which is odd because people see you through a screen and I feel like people are probably think you're taller.

[Lev Bure]

Yes.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Than what you are.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yes.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Like Tom Cruise, I think gets that a lot.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And people see me in real life and I say often I'm 6 7. But then when we meet, they're like, whoa, you really. That. This is the number one statement. Wow, you really are six seven.

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Like, like what? I was lying. Like, I mean, what does that mean? Was I just. What did you think?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Seven? That's so tall.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's weird. Tall.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah, that's weird. I, I, Bob Saget was 6 4.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

And in my, in my movies, most of the time my, my co stars will be, you know, 6 2, 6, 36 4. It kind of averages.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Right.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

So I was thinking maybe you were six five, six, six, but you're six seven, six seven.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Weird.

[Lev Bure]

Tall.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

That is a lot.

[Lev Bure]

Do people stand, like, when I know you're short, like mom, you're.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I'm five two.

[Lev Bure]

Do you ever stand on a box?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yes.

[Lev Bure]

Okay.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

That is my life. I feel like my next book is going to be titled My Life on an Apple Box.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's like when we took the, you know, the photos and some of the past episodes. After the episodes, I'm. You can't. Like I'm having to squat down.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Trying to figure that out.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

We call it the Groucho.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Monica's five two.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

She is.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Okay. So that's right. We are.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

That's our world. Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah. All the guys when we make do the movies, either I'm on an apple box or they Groucho, which means they kind of squat like Groucho marks. And that's what we call it.

[Lev Bure]

Do you have like actual like tall people problems?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Sure.

[Lev Bure]

Like airplanes, like airplane. What's the most annoying to you?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's fine. I mean I've, I've gotten like, people are always like, you take the front. I mean, here's the, here's a tip is really. You have the same amount of leg Room in the front or the back, because that seat moves. So it's. People always like, oh, you're tall. You should sit in the front. Like some. In some trucks like my buddy's Tundra actually have more room in the back.

[Lev Bure]

Oh, for sure.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So it's little. Little known issue. But, yeah, airplanes. I mean, anything. Any small spaces are challenging.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

People always are really happy when I'm walking down the airplane aisle, and then I'm like, oh, I'm in that seat next to you, and they're always like, oh. And then they take half my seat.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. It's not fair, but just. It's the knees, the knee space, trying to figure out. And then the person in front of you puts their seat back and it's all good. Man teaches you for the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve.

[Lev Bure]

Exactly.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Humility. Did you. You guys do anything fun last night?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

We did. We did. We had it. We went and had sushi together, just Lev and me.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And how often y' all get hang. To hang in St. Helena or that area?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Well, I try to be up as home as often as possible. Lev lives not too far from us.

[Lev Bure]

I'm 10, 15 minutes away. Elliot and I live, but I mean it. Last night was fun because we don't.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Have dates that often.

[Lev Bure]

Exactly. Just us two. So it was sweet to spend time with mom and, you know, just get to talk and share and.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Be with each other. It was. It was a sweet time.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Lev is so easy to talk to, and I always enjoy our conversations. And he's so. He's so thoughtful, and I love talking about spiritual things with. With Lev, and he's always really open to it, so that's always fun for me. And then, you know, just life stuff. Talked about our day, and it was great.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Were you like that? That was the best podcast we've ever done, the best host we've had.

[Lev Bure]

Absolutely.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Really enjoyed. Does that. Okay. 100% glad that was covered.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. We're like, her mom brought it up, but this guy JP needs to pick it up.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

You know, he said some things that were off base. We'll try to clean that up in the next episode.

[Lev Bure]

But we had fun. We had.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

We did. It was.

[Lev Bure]

I feel like apart from my wife, Elliot, seriously, like, my mom is the only person who would just, like, listen to me talk for an hour, so I'm grateful for that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Well, you. You've always loved your mom when we. I remember that and. And premarital and just.

[Lev Bure]

Oh, yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

How much you look up to Her. So you got a fan in this guy.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Thanks, baby.

[Lev Bure]

I love you.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I love you. Love all my kids. Do you get time, like with your kids to do one on one?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I almost always take one with me. Okay. But the dynamic of our family is my oldest is just like me, so, I mean, almost exactly like me. Our middle is just like Monica, and then our youngest were the. Our son. We're kind of figuring out who he's most like. But the oldest and the youngest are always down to go where, like, hey, pull us out of school anytime.

[Lev Bure]

Awesome.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Cool.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

The middle is as very academic minded and so she doesn't want to miss school or anything. And so I have to get creative to get time with her. But the other two are always down to. To travel and whatnot. And so that's. That's when we get a lot of time. And then. Yeah. I mean, people are like, you travel all the time. But the reality is I sleep in my bed most nights.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

That's good.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I don't know.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Just hearing about it recently and before a past episode, I was like, man, your world is wild. But that's good. You're doing work that matters. It's important.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Thanks. I do love what I do.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

You fired the arrows in the right direction. It seems like they turned out okay.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

So, yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Did something right. Yeah. It's an extraordinary grace. I mean, there is. You learn in this challenge, in like the challenge of parenting, there is a million pitfalls.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And it's just like, all right, what are the things that matter? And I've been thinking a lot about that, trying to put down best practices, because for most of my adult life or most of my ministry, I was with young adults, which are the product of parenting, if you think about it. So this is post college. So now they're out the. Out of the nest. And you would see sibling groups come through and. And really extraordinary sibling groups. And so I would begin to interview their parents, like, hey, what did you guys do? And I would try to write down best practices that extraordinary parents did. But it's been. It's been a fun kind of 20 year old.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah, I know. We had a great season here on the podcast. We did a whole season on parenting with Dr. Josh Straub and his wife Kristi, and they were fantastic. And Natasha and Max and Val came on for a few episodes.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I got the boot, though.

[Lev Bure]

That one was like, hey, let's go.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

He got sick. He got sick. But it was. It's such a great season if, if you haven't Seen that season, by the way. Or listen to it. You should go back and listen to it if you're a parent. Because we went through the toddler year, I mean, newborn all the way through young adults. And there's just a lot of good information there. And. And we talk about what we got right and what we got wrong.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, the challenges are always shifting, right? Yeah. So I have a question for you, Candice. Just is there a time where you feel like you've become numb to something or like there's, you know, something going on and you, You. At first it's startling and then it becomes less startling. And as you think about it, I'll give you an example. We moved to Waco, and something people don't realize about Waco, Texas, is SpaceX. Is there?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Is what?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

SpaceX. So like, Elon Musk, like, SpaceX, like, they go to space.

[Lev Bure]

The confusion on your face.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I needed to hear that three times before I understood what you were talking about.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So what they do is they fire up a rocket every single day. Oh, every day they. They turn on a rocket and the rocket shakes the whole city.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Like an earthquake.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Kind of like an earthquake. I've never been in an earthquake, but kind of like. I mean, it's like it rattles your windows and everything. And so when we move there. The first. I was doing an interview on stage at the. I just come on staff and I'm on stage and they fire up the rocket and I. I thought Jesus was coming back. And I mean, I. And nobody else. It was almost like I was the only one who heard it. Like, maybe I'm the only one about to get raptured, you know, Everybody else just went on business as usual and I'm on stage and I'm like, like looking around like, what is that?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

What just happened really freaked me out. And then they all start laughing. And then I realized, like, oh, that's SpaceX. Well, I've been there now for six years. And if you came there, you guys would. When that happens, you would be like, whoa. But it's like now I. I totally tune it out. I don't even notice it.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And so I'm curious, is there anything like that in Yalls world?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Oh, let me. Let me think. I do know how that feeling feels, though, with an earthquake, because I've been in so many earthquakes and we just had one yesterday or the. No, the night before. Yeah, a couple days ago.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Wait, what? Y' all had an earthquake?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah. Yeah, and it was only like a. I think it was like a 3.7 or 3.8. But I have. My spidey senses go up so fast with earthquakes. I can. I can hear them before you even feel them, I think because I've been in so many of them. And then I was shooting up in. In Vancouver, and there was one up there, and that was a little startling because I didn't expect them to be up there. But I feel like we're having more and more.

[Lev Bure]

We technically have earthquakes every day.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

What?

[Lev Bure]

Technically? I mean, they're very small.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Have you been in an earthquake?

[Lev Bure]

Plenty growing up.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah. And like, I. I was in the big one. Like the big Northridge quake and the big San Francisco quake. Like all of those.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

What?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

It's actually so true. Something that we can easily get numb to here. I mean, like, oh, another earthquake. Again, some are bigger than others.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

You feel them. You know, they'll shake buildings, they'll shake things off shelves, and things will break. But technically, every day, there's many earthquakes happen all the time.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

That is wild. So we're talking about spiritual warfare. That's. If you're just joining us, that's been the. The nature of the conversation throughout these episodes. And so please go back and listen to. To catch up. But that's the one today. Just like the. The villain desensitizes or he makes us numb to things. And it's a little bit the classic. If you've ever heard the story of, like, the frog in boiling water, which I don't know if it's true. I haven't verified this, but the way that it's told is if you. If you slowly heat up the water that the frog is in, it won't jump out. You can actually boil the frog alive. If you. If you slowly rise, raise the temperature in small increments. If you. If you put a frog in hot water, it'll jump out, but if you slowly heat up the water, it will actually stay in there until it's cooked. And I think this is the nature of what's happening to us. I was. I was in Manhattan recently, walking around Times Square. And as I looked around, and I know this will sound very legalistic, like a, you know, Karen or. Oh, my goodness. Okay, Pastor. But as I look around, I was. I was. I. I stood in one spot in Times Square, and I didn't move. I just stayed right there, and I just looked around and there were so many references to spells, to witchcraft, to satanic ideologies, to demons, to hell, to the devil. All, I mean, in on every, like, Building billboards, Broadway shows, you know, advertisements, stores. I was just blown away at how many satanic themes there were around us, that at some point it would be like, whoa. And now the same is. Is true for just how sexually charged our culture is.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Like, how bent toward sex we are. And I. You see that as a. As a parent, like, when you bring small kids with you, you stood. That's. It's like, oh, I've never noticed that before. But now that they're with me, I really notice that billboard or that advertisement, or I'm like, hey, cover your eyes right now. So my son is really sensitive to it, and so he's. He's like a helpful kind of radar to me. But do you guys have any, like, as. We.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah, I. I mean, I was thinking that not too long ago, we had award season. That's kind of always the beginning, you know, towards the beginning of the year. But I'm like, what happened to clothing? Really?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

And we look at. You look at some outfits and listen, I'm sure people could pick apart some of my outfits. I made some, maybe not great choices when I was in my 20s, too, but I'm looking at things like the Oscars and like, red carpet that are supposed to be the most magnificent, beautifully dressed. And I think of class and elegance. And then some people walk on the carpet and they're like, half naked, or they're just basically in a bra and underwear with a little sheer thing over the top as I say that in my sheer bodysuit. But I do have a bodysuit on underneath this. I'm completely covered. But that. That's. And then I look at it, and you're. As I'm scrolling through Instagram, looking at the pictures of people, I'm kind of like, yeah, that's what it is today. People just don't wear clothes anymore. And yet, I mean, it does bother me, but you just kind of get used to it. And you're like, okay, let's just move along.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I'm like, what happened.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

What made big headlines this year was someone had nothing underneath.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yes.

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And so it's like, yeah, it's just. We're. We're. That is a classic example of pushing the envelope as far as as we possibly can. And. And I don't know that we think about how irresponsible that is. Like, that there. There's children watching. And even that statement, if you think about that statement, like, yeah, there's kids watching. Was. Is it. Is it more. You know, I don't know. I want to be careful how I say this and, and thoughtful. But I, I think that we think it's safe for some age and it's really not. I mean I'm 44 years old and it's not safe for me. You know, I don't, I don't. It's not like, oh, now you're an adult. And so that's okay to be exposed to the things and entertained by the things that Christ died for. I think this is what the enemy wants us to think. He wants us to be like, oh, that. But that's okay. You know, that language is okay. Looking at, that's okay. You're an adult now. You can make your, your own choices. We talked about in past episodes the mantra of the Satanic Bible is do as thy will. And there is such a current in our culture of yeah, once you're an adult you can make your own choices. You should be able to do whatever you, you please. And I get in these debates sometimes with, with a younger generation, Gen Alpha, Gen Z that are like, yeah, if somebody wants to take their own life, they should be able to do that. And like man, that is a, such a, a satanic influenced ideology.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Because he loves, takes great delight in when people hurt themselves and, and sometimes we do it like we're partying off the cliff, like with drugs and being under the influence to the point where it damages our body. It's like we're laughing and partying and toasting and high fiving all the way off the cliff. And I think that's what they receive as worship when we're talking about demons and the spiritual realm. So.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah, what is the, what's the difference between a preference and a conviction?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, that's a great question. What would you say, Lev, We've had.

[Lev Bure]

Some of these comments, we've had a lot of these. You know, I'll preface by saying I definitely err on the side of being more legalistic. It's something I work on. Oh, come on.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Come on what?

[Lev Bure]

You know, I'm hard to believe right now, but you know, as even I wrestle with that and what that looks like and you know, living in the great grace that God has given us, I still think about, you know, 1st Peter 1:16, it says, for it is written be holy because I am holy. And I, I think that's something that we can so easily miss. And that's not saying that we live in a works based faith by any means, but at the same time we serve a God who is so he's perfectly holy. And at that same time, we are called to become more like Jesus every single day. And I don't, I don't want us as Christians, as believers, to miss that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. A friend of mine wrote a book, the Awe of God, which is really about the fear of God. And I, it. It pivoted my theology or, or strengthened it, I should say, around what does it mean to fear God? And that's something that is certainly fallen off, I think, for us today. And so every year I give up something, and every year I have a word. And so my word this year is holiness. And you'd be encouraged by that by a bit. It's just like I want to think that it's. That I want, you know, be holy because he is holy. Where, where there's holiness leaks in my life. Where am I accepting or being okay or being desensitized towards some of these things? Just because it's the water that I'm swimming in, where is it slowly being heated up and I don't realize it, that I'm about to be cooked.

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah. And let's talk about where we find the differences between. Or the, the balance of whether being legalistic, it being a preference or a conviction on things like watching rated R movies or cursing. You know, I know there's like, you know, memes that go around. They're like, I'm a Christian, but I curse a little.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Mm. Yeah. Ephesians 4 talks about the. The hardening of the heart, and it describes people straying from the faith. It says they have lost all sensitivity. And so what does it look like where we. I mean, I think the challenge for Christians is how can I be around a non Christian and love them and not be appalled by them?

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

You have to. You have to understand that someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit, their job description is sin. They're just fulfilling their job description. If they don't have the Holy Spirit, them cussing like a sailor, it's just like, why wouldn't they. They.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

They should. If they don't believe in heaven, if there's no reality of God, if they're not thinking about the afterlife or consequences, then why wouldn't you view this whole world as your playground and try to soak up as much temporary pleasure as you can? I have an answer to that because I think it's ultimately harmful. I think God is a good father who desires to give good gifts to his children. James says, and that all of his instruction leads to life, that God's not Trying to rip me off, that he wants to set me free. That when he's telling me, hey, don't have sex outside of marriage, he's not just saying, hey, I want to withhold that pleasure from you. He's saying, hey, you having sex outside of marriage is actually harmful to you. And I believe that he's. He's a good God like that. But I think that, I think that we can be incredibly naive when we begin to think, oh, that doesn't impact me. That's what the enemy's after when it says, having lost all sensitivity, he wants us thinking, oh, that doesn't impact me. And the reality is, and this is, you know, test it as I say this, people listening are going to argue with me is sin always impacts us. In fact, no one in the history of the world, of all creation, no human that has ever lived, has ever gotten away with sin. It always brings some kind of death to any and every situation. Now, eternally, we can Romans 8:1. For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Second Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 19. He's no longer counting our sins against us. This is the beauty of the gospel, that Christ has paid for my sins, he's paid for my freedom. He set me free. But here on this earth, when I'm entertained by the things that he died for, it is impacting me always in a negative way. So a loving God is going to instruct me to stay away from that. In the same way that as you're raising children, you're raising Lev, and you say, hey, Lev, don't touch the hot stove. He just sees as a three year old, he may just see something bright and beautiful and oh, but I want to pick it up. And it's like, why wouldn't you let me do that, Mom? You're so mean. It's like we talked about in episodes past when I'm standing there and saying, hey, Presley, jump into the deep end. I'm going to teach you to swim.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

She's just like, why would you want me to do that? You're so mean. In reality, God has this perspective that's greater than ours. He sees eternity past from eternity future. And he's giving us instruction that leads us to life. And so the enemy, John 10:10, the enemy seeks to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus has come so that we might have life and have it to the full.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Jonathan Pakuta]

So if someone is like I probably am Desensitized about things that I don't even realize I am. And they want to feel convicted over those things. They say I do. I want to honor God with my life. And I mean, I would say just start asking, pray about it. But what are, what are some other practical steps to understand that in the spiritual realm he is desensitizing us. He's numbing us to the things that are good. And again, making, making good look bad and bad look good to us.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I want to go back to that last part. The interesting thing about blind spots are you can't see them. And it's not like you don't see them, it's like you can't see them. Right?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And so we talked recently, it was last episode, about disunity. One of the things that we did, Monica and I, early in our marriage is we got in a life group, a small group, a home group, cell group, community group, whatever you call them, but essentially a group of people that we met with consistently to spur us on toward loving good deeds, to encourage us to love God and love people. And as those friends got to know us as they're yielded to the Holy Spirit, you know, they were able to say like, hey, Monica, I were brand new believers. Like when we got married, we were new Christians. They were able to say like, hey, there's some remnants of the world in your life. Like, you guys know, you do this. We're like, oh, is that not normal? You know, is that not. They're like, no, that's, that's harmful. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't do that. You, you, you shouldn't look at that. You shouldn't watch that. You, you know, whatever it is, you shouldn't so frivolously spend in this way or you should give more. And, and that can be a vulnerable thing. But, but now I've learned I cannot live without it. For five years straight, I hated it. So for every five years I was like, would tell Monica, I'm like, hey, we should quit going to small group. I just don't enjoy it. It feels like a forced friendship. Yeah, we have our friends and then there friends and that just we can get a night of the week back. Like, let's not go. I can't imagine my life without it. Now there's a reason that companies are ran by board of directors, you know, and so my life has a board of directors. It's, it's people that know how much I make, they know how much I give, they know big purchases that we make we process them with them. They understand my sin struggles if I stay in a, if I travel by myself, which I rarely do, but if I, if I do, they're texting me that night, like, hey, are you going to turn your TV on? Are you looking at anything? You guarding your eyes? You by yourself, you're going to bed. And they're checking in on me. And people say, wow, that's legalistic. No, it's a lifeline for me. That's, you know, so far has been the saving grace. There's a lot of people that do what I do that don't finish well. There's a lot of folks that I know that will make headlines. And listen, if I don't, like, if something happens to me because I'm following God, meaning, like, if I'm like, hey, I'm gonna do what God said and that upsets people, that's one thing. But if I do something stupid that hinders the name of Jesus, that's a, that's a different thing. And so I want people in my life that are helping me around those ways. And so if we have blind spots, which every single person listening right now, every single person watching right now has a blind spot in their life.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

That you can't see. Go to the person who's going to be the most honest with you and ask them, hey, what do you think my blind spots are? And they'll tell you, say, hey, where do you think there's a holiness leak in my life? They'll tell you, where is there a drift in my life? And it may be towards self righteousness. And we joked earlier, you said legalism. It could be that for sure. Most often it's towards licentiousness, which is, you know, enjoying our liberties and freedoms, if you will.

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Licentiousness.

[Lev Bure]

We talked about, we talked about that last night. Last night on our date night. Yeah. Licentious.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I had not heard that word.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

In what context?

[Lev Bure]

We were, I was even talking about my own. Like, we were talking about legalism and bringing up past conversations and yeah, I actually said there's a word for. I don't know if you'd consider it the opposite of legalism, but I couldn't remember the word.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And that is wild.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. I was like, what is it? What is it? Finally we looked it up. Licentious.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Wow, that's wild. What are the odds?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

We have some deep conversations.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, we love it.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

How do you, it's great.

[Lev Bure]

How do you, both of you, like, approach those conversations with other believers when you could be on the side that might seem legalistic or self righteous. How do you encourage someone to pursue holiness and opposite. Like if someone is self righteous and legalistic, how do you encourage them to be like man? Like we can live in the grace of what God's given us.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Well, when you started asking that question, I was thinking of if, if I'm in a place for accountability, who do I go to? I don't. I used to have small group Bible study and my life, you know, every season is just so different and now I travel a lot and so my, my groups and my accountability people look different in my life kind of year to year something. I'm praying over this year because I really, really want some in person. Everything's been online and over email and zoom calls and I'm like, I really want like three people in my life that I can meet in person again. But anyway, I'm thinking accountability. Who do I call? And yet you, I have those handful of friends because I don't have a setup like you do where you're, you know, we're not doing a group every week where my husband and I meet. But I have women in my life, but I kind of know who errs on the side of legalism and I know the ones that are on the system. Aaron, what is it called?

[Lev Bure]

License?

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Licentiousness.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I always want truth and I, I always want truth in love, but I want the truth. But it's, it's sometimes tricky when you don't have like the perfect setup of the perfect people. And like what do I really want to hear? Someone that might be more agreeable with me today or someone that's just going to give me an honest truth that I might not want to hear.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

You know, that could be legalistic by the way. It might be honest for them.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

But it could be their preference.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, I'll go back to, to kind of take it to a weird place. You know, we, we've talked about the demonic and I was thinking about, I woke up thinking about this actually, this journey, this three year research, I mean it has made me completely convinced. I would say I started from a skeptical place and it's made me completely convinced that there are demons, that they use people that people can give themselves over to the demonic. I was meeting with a mutual pastor friend of ours last night. He was talking about, he prayed over a guy and he said, and he just said, you know, dear Jesus. And as soon as he said dear Jesus, the guy fell on the floor on all fours and Started just screaming things and speaking in this other voice. And, I mean, those crazy stories that are out there, that are candidly probably scary to some of the people listening. I've interviewed Catholic exorcists. I've interviewed the leading Deliverance people. I've interviewed the person who wrote the book on deliverance. I've interviewed people that is just commonplace. They've traveled through other countries and they've seen crazy demonic activity. And the. The really good news, the hope that I would give everyone, and to tie it back to our topic at hand, is just this idea that there's nothing new under the sun. So let me give you the formula right now. Like, to. To find freedom. It's. It's prayer, confession, repentance, and. And then like discipleship. And so each of those words like confess, you bring to light anything hidden, what is hidden in our life. It's like a fence for the demonic to play in. So that thing that we say, man, I'm going to take that to my grave. I'm never going to deal with that, that. That thing that I did or what happened to me. I'm just going to stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff. It impacts us in really profound ways that we don't realize. And so you bring that. People say, oh, do I have to? It's like, no, you, because of Jesus, you get to. You get to bring that to the light. You. You get to. It doesn't own you. You can talk about. And as you bring that to the light, you have the people around you. It's like a consistent group of folks that. That can pray over you. This is James 5, 16. Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. Which tells me there's a healing that only comes by way of confession and prayer. This is why I talk to guys all the time. Like, I can't get free from pornography or I can't get free from this addiction. And I'm like, you're not going to until you confess consistently and you have others pray for you. You're not going to. And then just the repentance, that's the removing access. And so you realize, like, oh, yeah, my threshold is. I do watch this. This is my favorite show. And you're right, it does have nudity. And. And I've just become. So I used to turn. I used to look away. I didn't watch it for a while. Then I started watching it, but I would look away. And then I just stopped looking away. And now I really enjoy those scenes I look forward to them. That's the progression of how the enemy works. And so when you realize that, you say, you know what? I'm going to cut it off. I'm not going to watch that anymore. I'm going to turn that off. I'm going to begin to close those doors in my life so that I don't give the devil a foothold, because the foothold turns into a stronghold. And a stronghold is going to take you somewhere you don't want to be. And so I think we have to have those folks in our life. And then the last thing I'll say really quick is, you know, you said truth and love. It's all right. That's what he says in Ephesians. And really, all things in love. And so as we're talking with someone who has different convictions than us, we have First Corinthians 8, Romans 14. The Bible makes provisions for different preferences. And so where the Bible speaks to it clearly, like, hey, this is morally wrong. It's like, I'm not going to commit adultery. That's morally wrong. I'm not going to do that. Over here. The Bible doesn't say, I can't watch that movie. So maybe I can watch it, maybe you can't. If you can't, I want to respect that boundary. If I can, you can ask me questions. But at the end of the day, I may be right before the Lord. And you have to be okay with that.

[Lev Bure]

Totally.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And for us to continue to pursue Christ together. And so I think it's really all things in love with the motivation of love.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

What do you say as a pastor, when. Or as just a person, when you're hanging out with someone who's not a believer and they're living their life in a way that's good.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

But they're not convicted about anything godly. So I'll just use sex before marriage as an example. And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, oh, I met this guy last night. I hooked up. We hooked up. It was great. And that. But. But that's your friend. And you're just listening to their conversation.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I just want to know what the reaction is to you, because it's. It's. For me, it's this weird thing when you're listening to the stories and you want to be like, there's no conviction. So I'm. I don't want to be. Make them feel bad or guilty. I don't want to really show it on my face. But at the same time, I also don't want to be like, yeah, man, that's great. Awesome. I love that for you.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Because I don't.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Amazing question. You said just one thing I want to double click on. You said, not a believer. And. And so my answer may surprise you, Candace, but to those who are not believers, I don't talk. Talk about morality. Again. I think they're just fulfilling their job description. So I'm not there to say to them, hey, you shouldn't do that, because in reality, they should do that.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

They don't have a conviction because they can't have a conviction without the Holy Spirit, it's impossible to have a conviction. You can feel guilty. Satan loves that. But you can't have a conviction. And so. So I want to talk to them about Jesus. And so they say, man, you're not gonna believe it. Last night we went out, we got drunk, snorted a line. I took. I met this girl, took her home. Man, we had the craziest night. And. And I would just say, hey, where are you at on things on faith? I'm just curious, and I want to go there. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not here to, like. I'm not going to be like, hey, that's amazing. Way to go. That's awesome. Hopefully you know where I stand with those things. And it's like, you know, hey, hey, John, I'm making up that name. Hey, John, you know, if you like what you got, keep doing what you're doing. But if you keep doing what you're doing, you're not going to like what you got. And when you don't like what you got, you holler at your boy, call me up, and I'll be there. I'm going to show up for you. And because I'm telling you, I've done those, like my story. At least I would say I've done those things. I'll check, check, check, check. Yeah, and there wasn't life there. I thought there was. In fact, I would have tried to convince you there was, just like you're trying to convince me there is a man. I've drank from that well, and that well will leave you thirsty. And I found the well where you. You drink from it, you will never thirst again. That's what he tells the woman at the well. John 4. You know, I know where the water is, where if you drink from it, you will never thirst again. And I have found that. Listen, I'm on. I'm here. I am on Candace's podcast. I'm sober, I'm thinking Clearly, I've tasted from the world, I've drank deeply from the world, and I have found something better in Christ. That's what I want you to know. And so you're welcome to test it. And you could be skeptical. You can be as skeptical as you want, but I'm telling you, there is an enemy that doesn't want you to find the abundant life that Christ offers. And they're sustaining joy there like there's true happiness there.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Thanks for that. I just always need the encouragement. Most of the people that I work with in films sure aren't believers. And I, I love these people dearly, sometimes brand new friends, but friends I've worked with for a long time. And I do, I do share when I. When it feels good and an authentic moment and good. I. When I feel like God's opening the door. But I think I'm just getting more and more convicted lately because sometimes I just sit there and I listen to the stories and I'm not necessarily agreeable, but I just want to be a friend to listen. So I was just wondering how you handle that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. I want to say this to, you know, your, your people. And just like this woman right here, I'm blown away by how you do that. I think that you play in that thin space as well. I mean, you are, you are loving you kind of, you mother, you know, you have that, that mama's heart I see. And, and you can, you can sit with somebody who has a different conviction than you, a different God than you, a different, you know, faith and just altogether lifestyle than you. And you're just like, I love you. You need something. I'm going to be there for you. Where they got to be like, come on, Candace, you're not going to be there. And you're like, no, I am like, I'll make good on that. You know, I want. And I'll pray for you and I'll reach out to you and I'll follow up with you. And I don't agree with you, but that's okay. I still love you like crazy. And don't mistake where we disagree. I'm not going to interpret the way you disagree with me as hate. Please don't interpret the way I disagree with you with hate. And you do that as well as anyone I've ever seen, so encourage you.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Thank you. Appreciate that. Should we take a listener question?

[Lev Bure]

Let's do it.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Today's listener question is from Sarah. Okay, this is a detailed one she wants to know. In Samuel 16, 14, 23, the Bible describes how God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul because of his disobedience. This evil spirit is essentially what causes Saul to go after David. Is this dark spirit from God something that God only does in the Old Testament or something you think happens today as well? It's my first time reading this, and it left me wondering what is from God and what isn't from God? Is this the type of situation, like Job, where God let Satan come down on Job and his family?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Lev, what is from God and what isn't from God?

[Lev Bure]

Only good is from God.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Only good is from God. I think the challenge that we have is something we've talked about before, is just we have to understand God is sovereign, so he's in complete control. And so when something bad happens, did God allow this to happen? It's like, well, sure. And we could say, well, why would God ever allow this to happen? And you say, because he has a redemptive plan that's so good that if you understood it, you would say, I'm glad that happened. Now, that is really difficult to understand in the midst of loss, in the midst of grief and heartbreak, death, disease. That's not a. I'm not trying to throw that band aid over a gaping wound if I'm ministering to someone. But if we're talking theologically about the idea, I would say, you know, the devil is God's devil, and so God can use even fallen angels to bring about his will. And if you are a servant of God, you are protected by God. You know, you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is guiding you as you yield to God. And there the world that we live in is fallen, and there we're kind of living in the second best reality right now. I think it's God's first desire that we would have faithfully followed him and not needed to eat from the tree that he said, commanded us not to eat from. But we said, just like a toddler, we said, wait, what? You're trying to withhold that from me? That's the one I want. And when we did that, us humans, we brought sin into the world and all things fallen into this world. And God, who's playing this chess game, chess game, he, you know, he can use that for our good, and he does. And now when I say a chess game, I think it's. So there's a temptation to think about dualism. Like, God's on one side of the board and Satan's on the other side of the board, and they're in this chess match. The problem is God knows every single move that Satan's gonna make and he can use those moves for his benefit. And in fact, as we're going to talk about in, in some of the episodes coming up, he, what was I gonna say? He actually like as he, he as Satan makes those moves. Oh, he has to ask God for permission. That's what I was gonna say. He asked, actually has to ask God for permission. So could you imagine playing chess with someone, you're like, hey, can I move? May I move there? May I move that? That's why, may I move that piece there? And so I, I think as the scripture says, God sends an evil spirit on soul. And I don't think Saul was saved. I don't think he was God's man. And I think he was the punishment on an entire nation who wanted a king. And so God raised up a king after his own heart. Not a perfect man in David, but a fallen human being who sought the Lord. What it means that he was a man after God's heart is he wanted to do God's will in all things. Again, not perfectly, but he, he pursued that.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

I'm so grateful that God sees our heart and sees the intention of our heart in everything and he has so much grace and mercy for us.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, I think that's actually 1st Samuel 16, they may have went. It may be the same chapter. Honestly, it says, for God does not look at outer appearance. God looks at the heart.

[Jonathan Pakuta]

Yeah. Grateful for that. And I'm grateful for you guys. Yeah, thanks. And I hope you'll come back next week. I know you will be here. If you have questions, did you know that you can ask [e-mail] yep. You can email us and you can also get our free gift this season called the no Fear Guide. Talking about spiritual stuff can be scary for people, but it, it doesn't have to be. You'll also find a link to Pastor JP's book, you, Story Has a Villain. Go to Candice.com to find the link. And everything as usual is in our show notes. Until next time, be grateful all day, every day. Candy Rock Entertainment. All rights reserved.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Jonathan Pakuta]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Jonathan Pakuta]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Lev Bure]

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