Demons at the Country Club- Jonathan Pokluda

Summary

The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast: "Demons at the Country Club" with Jonathan Pokluda

Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast, host Candace Cameron Bure welcomes Jonathan Pokluda, often referred to as J.P., the lead pastor of the historic 145-year-old Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. Season 10, titled "Your Story Has a Villain," delves deep into the theme of spiritual warfare, exploring the presence and impact of demons in our lives.

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Guest Background and Ministry (01:55 - 07:08)

Jonathan Pokluda shares his extensive background in ministry, highlighting his transition from leading the largest weekly young adult gathering in the country to his current role in Waco. His dedication to inspiring the next generation to follow Jesus is evident through his leadership and authorship of several bestselling books, including "Your Story Has a Villain."

Notable Quote:

Candace (03:41): "I want you guys to clip that and I want it to go in before me, everywhere I go, because that was the best intro I've ever had."

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Building Connections and Personal Stories (07:08 - 17:13)

Candace and Jonathan reminisce about their first meeting at Gabrielle and Cooper's wedding, emphasizing the influence of Lev, Candace's son, in fostering their relationship. Levi Pokluda recounts the profound impact of mission trips, particularly to Napa Valley, where he and his family engaged in outreach activities that led to the baptism of over 20,000 college students across various states.

Notable Quote:

Levi (07:06): "It's been... amazing to see what God's done in the last, I would even say two, three years."

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Understanding Spiritual Warfare (13:01 - 25:05)

The conversation shifts to the concept of spiritual warfare, with Jonathan explaining the biblical foundations from Revelation 12 and Ephesians 6. They discuss the reality of an invisible army comprising angels and demons, emphasizing God's ultimate sovereignty over evil forces.

Notable Quote:

Jonathan (13:01): "There is a spiritual war happening where the angels and demons are fighting, but one day Christ is going to return on that white horse as a ruler, as a military leader, and he's going to finish the job."

Candace shares a personal encounter at a prestigious Utah country club, where she witnessed what she believes to be a demonic possession. This profound experience solidified her understanding of spiritual realities and the presence of evil in seemingly benign settings.

Notable Quote:

Candace (22:26): "So there's an invisible army around us of both angels and demons."

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Navigating Possession and Oppression (28:26 - 44:58)

Candace and Jonathan delve into the distinctions between demonic possession and oppression. They explore how unrepentant sin can create footholds for demonic influence, referencing Ephesians 4: "Do not give the devil a foothold." The discussion emphasizes the importance of repentance, community prayer, and reliance on God's authority to combat spiritual oppression.

Notable Quote:

Candace (41:56): "When you sin, you let them in. And I don't mean like one, oh, I had this fleeting thought, or I, I'm, I messed up this one time. But I'm talking about when you continue to engage in unrepentant sin over and over and over and over."

Jonathan highlights the biblical account from Acts 19, where seven sons of a Jewish priest attempt to exorcise demons without a genuine relationship with Jesus, resulting in severe consequences. This story underscores the necessity of a true connection with Christ in spiritual confrontations.

Notable Quote:

Jonathan (47:02): "They left without clothes on, like you got whipped because you don't have clothes on and you're bleeding like you got whipped."

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Discernment: Recognizing God's Voice vs. the Enemy (47:27 - 51:06)

Addressing a listener question from Natalie, Candace provides a practical framework for discerning whether it's God speaking or the enemy. She introduces the "GPS" method:

1. Gather a group of believers for counsel.
2. Persist in prayer, seeking clarity and protection.
3. Search the scriptures to validate the message.

Candace emphasizes the importance of community, persistence in seeking God, and grounding decisions in biblical truth to effectively discern divine guidance.

Notable Quote:

Candace (48:44): "When I am looking to hear from God, I gather my group... I persist in prayer... I search the scriptures. That's how I know if it's from God."

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Final Thoughts and Encouragement (51:07 - 51:15)

Candace and Jonathan wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to actively engage in their spiritual journeys, assuring them that God's authority surpasses all evil forces. They invite listeners to download the "No Fear Guide," a free resource for those seeking to overcome fear through faith.

Notable Quote:

Candace (51:14): "Until next time. Be grateful all day, every day."

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Conclusion

"Demons at the Country Club" offers a profound exploration of spiritual warfare, blending personal testimonies with biblical insights. Candace Cameron Bure and Jonathan Pokluda guide listeners through understanding the unseen battles that influence our daily lives, providing practical steps for discernment and victory through Christ. Whether you're new to the topic or seeking deeper understanding, this episode serves as an enlightening resource on navigating the complexities of faith and spiritual conflict.

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Notable Quotes Overview:

1. Candace (03:41): "I want you guys to clip that and I want it to go in before me, everywhere I go, because that was the best intro I've ever had."
2. Levi (07:06): "It's been... amazing to see what God's done in the last, I would even say two, three years."
3. Jonathan (13:01): "There is a spiritual war happening where the angels and demons are fighting, but one day Christ is going to return on that white horse as a ruler, as a military leader, and he's going to finish the job."
4. Candace (22:26): "So there's an invisible army around us of both angels and demons."
5. Candace (41:56): "When you sin, you let them in. And I don't mean like one, oh, I had this fleeting thought, or I, I'm, I messed up this one time. But I'm talking about when you continue to engage in unrepentant sin over and over and over and over."
6. Jonathan (47:02): "They left without clothes on, like you got whipped because you don't have clothes on and you're bleeding like you got whipped."
7. Candace (48:44): "When I am looking to hear from God, I gather my group... I persist in prayer... I search the scriptures. That's how I know if it's from God."
8. Candace (51:14): "Until next time. Be grateful all day, every day."

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the dynamics of spiritual warfare and seeking practical advice on strengthening their faith amidst unseen battles.

Transcript

[Candace Cameron Bure]

If there's anything evil working here, I pray that you would bind it in Jesus name. And as I say that he goes and he starts like convulsing and I'm like, oh wow, what's happening?

[Jonathan Pacluta]

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[Jonathan Pacluta]

Life is like a roller coaster, but it's better when we go through it together. Welcome to the Candace Cameron Bure Podcast. We're here to share conversations about life's challenges, celebrations and everything in between. Season 10 is called you Story has a villain with my guest host, Jonathan Pacluda. Jonathan, we call him J.P. is the lead pastor of 145-year-old Baptist Church Church in Waco, Texas, Harris Creek. Before moving to Waco in 2019, he was the leader of the largest weekly young adult gathering in the country. Which is kind of why my son Lev is here, because he's had great influence over him. And although JP was raised in church, he didn't come to faith until into his early 20s. And he wants to inspire the next generation to radically follow Jesus and change the world. So he spends a lot of Time helping older generations understand and disciple younger generations. He has authored several best selling books including welcome to Adulting Outdated. Why do I do what I don't want to do? Oh, that is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. And his most recent release is your story has a villain, which is what this season is based on. JP and Monica's beautiful wife have been married since 2004 and they have three kids, Presley, Finley and Weston. And remember, if you watching on YouTube, click to subscribe and then make sure you tap the bell to get notified. Come join us. Woo. That was a long intro. But I'm so glad because I really wanted all night.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I want you guys to clip that and I want it to go in before me, everywhere I go, because that was the best intro I've ever had.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Fantastic.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's like they hired a professional actress to. To deliver that or something. Incredible.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah, sorry, we. I somehow didn't really introduce you on our very.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

We just went to the races.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

We did.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

We like Lev pulled us into the deep end right away. It was like, hey, let's talk about demons. And.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Okay, I know we just went there, but this is so you're. You are so well known also for your young adult ministry, which I really want to hear you tell me more about it, what you do with Jenny Allen. But to just talk about how we met. Yeah, because that was really. Because of Lev. I wasn't as familiar because I'm the older generation needing to learn how to connect with the younger generation. So Lev, Lev would talk about you a lot and, and your ministry and then Lev, I'll just let you tell the story of how you guys met, which is now how we met for sure.

[Levi]

Well, my now wife at the time was attending Baylor University and she was volunteering and attending Harris Creek Sicken Bears. I've become like a. Like an honorary bear.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Levi]

So I have to say that. Yeah. But we, we were introduced through a mutual friend who we both know, Gabrielle Odo. And that was, you know, shout out. Shout out Gabrielle. And even before that, I mean, we met at Kanakuk, so a lot of times, most of the time we give Kenneth, you know, a huge thank you for really being how Ellie and I ended up meeting each other through Gabrielle. But Gabrielle and Elliot, my wife met and she just said, hey, you know, I heard you from St. Helena. There's this insanely attractive guy that you should really meet and get to know. But it's funny, I don't know if you know this, but the text that Gabrielle sent to Me that convinced me, like, I need to call Elliot is randomly out of the blue. She said, levi, don't be dumb.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, no, I remember that. I remember that from the wedding.

[Levi]

Yeah, call this woman. And so I did grab coffee and. And the rest is history. But through that was introduced to JP Even earlier when you were doing Gabrielle and Cooper's wedding was awesome.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And yeah, I met you there. And so I. Here's the deal. 12 years of young adult ministry taught me that extraordinary young adults come from extraordinary parents. And so way to go, mom and dad. I met him at that wedding and I thought, this guy here, because there's like a Dapper Ness. I don't know if that's a word about you, where he's just like. I mean, the brother's got style and charisma and kindness. And so he. You popped in a crowd of young adults and was like, all right, this. This guy's a. He's. He's a good dude. And then I had the privilege and honor of doing Yalls wedding.

[Levi]

Yeah. Which was amazing.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Which was great.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Thanks for.

[Levi]

Yeah. JP blessed us incredibly by coming up for that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It was. It was hard. I mean, it had to be suffer in Napa Valley was. It was tough. It was tough. It was a mission trip as outreach.

[Levi]

There's only. Only so many people who would really put their life on the line and serve in that way.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Missionary on the front lines.

[Levi]

But it was amazing. And we've gotten to keep in touch since. And yeah, here we are today.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I love it.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah. Now here we are.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And he's preaching. I mean, you know, I know it's like I'm. Now I'm listening to your messages and trying to learn all I can. So it's great to be here.

[Levi]

It's been. Yeah. All of it's been a blessing. It's amazing to see what God's done in the last, I would even say two, three years.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Really.

[Levi]

Across the nation, across the world. You know, what we get to experience in Napa Valley in our, you know, 120 person church called Yontville Community Church. Shout out. It's just a snippet of what he's doing in Napa Valley and getting to see what he's doing in Texas and Waco. It's. And really thinking that God's moving everywhere has been just an incredible sight to see. Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So the porch. You had mentioned the porch.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So the porch is. Was a ministry at Watermark where I pastored. Now we're doing this thing called Unite, which is you saw at Gather, we talked about. There was like a little panel where we were sharing about it, but my friend Tanya Pruitt kind of prayed this thing into existence at Auburn University. And as she invited Jenny and I to come speak there that night, a young woman, a college student, had never been baptized. And so she said she want to be baptized. And so we were like, hey, is there water nearby? They said over there. We went over there and 250 college students got baptized that night. And the news picked it up. Like it was like Fox picked it up and different outlets picked it up. And so then we thought it was just like an amazing night, but it was over. But then we went to fsu, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, University of Florida.

[Levi]

Wow.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

South Carolina. And just so basically threw us onto this college tour where I've had the opportunity and honor to pray with over 20, 000 college students to receive Christ. I mean, people don't like using the word revival. I don't know why I don't hesitate. I'm like, there is a revival in our land right now, calling people to know him in. In really profound ways. So yeah, incredible.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Were you at Asbury?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, I was. Yeah, I went to Asbury and then Passion. So then, then at the Passion that year, there was this like 20 minute stall singing this song, Agnes Day. And you know, it made a charismatic out of me. Yeah, I was like, all right, I'm. I'm all in on the Holy spirit. Let's go.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

That is amazing. And I see when I go through Jenny and Jenny Allen and we have a whole season with Jenny on the podcast, you can go back and listen to the those episodes with her. I mean, I look through the Instagram photos and the videos and like you guys are baptizing in the back of pickup trucks.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, Georgia was in a m. Was in the back of pickup trucks. It was like it's been. They. We just figured out wherever we go and Tanya has raised up this army of college students that just have traveled with us.

[Levi]

Wow.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Wherever we go around the country, they show up and just make this thing happen. So I love that.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I have to say, as a mom, Lev was baptized at Kanakuk. Right.

[Levi]

I was, I was also christened or baptized by my Russian grandmother in Russia without my parents approval or knowledge.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Another story.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, but.

[Levi]

But yes, formally, no. I. I was baptized at. At 18. Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah, but I was. My. My thought process was as a mom, I was like, wait, what? I wasn't invited. You didn't wait to come home to church? So I Could make a big deal about it, because I wanted to. I think of all these college students that are getting baptized, and you're, like, getting, you know, get in the back of the truck. You guys had water in there. Or whether it's a, you know, a pool or. Or the ocean. It's just so cool that it is immediate, that it's like they feel convicted and they're repenting of their sin. And then you're doing the baptism, and.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

They'Re all plugged into a local church. I always want to make, you know, it's not this, like, fly by night. We come in, we leave. Right. There's local pastors there that help them get connected to local churches. Wow. And. And it's not also this, like, lineup and dunk one after the other. We're there sometimes till, you know, 130 in the morning, because we'll have, you know, 200 gospel conversations and just, like, making sure. How do you really understand what Christ has done for you, who he is? And I just love it, your commitment to follow him. So it's been incredible.

[Levi]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I'm sure. I'm sure some of the parents of the students that have been baptized are sad they missed out.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Sure.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

But. Because I felt that way. But just as a reminder, it is the, like, best, most incredible thing that can happen. So when you get past the initial. Sorry, I'm, like, having therapy right now because I missed Max's.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I'm here to mediate this reconciliation moment. Okay. Like, you. You got baptized without your mama there. Even FaceTime her.

[Levi]

Listen, there's no phones at Kuk. I mean, like, I.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

You can't.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

No phones.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

No phones. It's so cool. So cool what you guys are doing.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

We're going to end this episode with another baptism so that you can be in the presence. So we'll figure that out.

[Levi]

2.0.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Good. Okay. Well, this week, we're talking about an invisible army. Oh, what does that mean? God's army? Is it the demons? You know, they got their own army.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Did y' all ever sing that song like, I'm in the Lord's army? Yes, sir.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I don't know that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Okay, make sure we edit that out.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

It's not.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Now there's like, a salt. Like, oh, how does it go?

[Levi]

I like the yes, sir at the end.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Because I'm in the Lord's army.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yes, sir.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I will never fly with the march, with the ride, with the calvary. I will just never.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I don't know.

[Levi]

You can keep going if you want to.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Y' all are like, no, I've never heard that song.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

They don't sing it in Florida.

[Levi]

No.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Okay, so here's the deal. There's an invisible army around us of both angels and demons. Revelation, chapter 12. We. We talked about this last week. Says that one third of the angelic realm fell with Satan. That's the bad news, is that there's lots of demons here on Earth. The good news is they're numbered. They're outnumbered two to one by God's army. And. And the other good news, as I always want to point out, is that God is infinitely stronger than Satan. So they're not two equal and opposing forces. We said last week that we don't subscribe to the heresy of dualism. That. And I'll say it in a way that will make my reformed brothers and sisters happy. The devil is God's devil. Meaning that what you're seeing anytime he operates is he's asking God for permission. And it raises the question, why would God ever give him permission? And we're going to talk about that because that's a big theological reality. But surrounded around us, as you kind of brought up last week, Candace, is, is there. Is this spiritual war? There's a spiritual battle. And I think as Christians, we have to ask the question, do we actually believe that? Like, because I don't think we think about that enough.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

When you said that this would make my reformed brothers and sisters happy. And we, you know, I have a more reformed theology. Lev is quite reformed, I think, quite. Even more than. Than me.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. She didn't say quiet reform.

[Levi]

She says, for the record. Quite.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah, quite. But what did you mean by that?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

What is this just high view of God's sovereignty, meaning that he is completely sovereign over the. Over the destruction that happens in the world, which I believe not the cause, but allows, and the solution and our issue. And this is, we are way in the deep end here. But God sits outside of time. And so when we raise an issue with God, it's always an issue of his timing. Like, if, you know, my father passed away and so I experienced grief when my dad passed away. And if my grief turns to anger and bitterness to God, it's not that I'm surprised by death, because I know that everyone who lives dies. I understand that. It's that I'm frustrated with God. That's timing. I don't agree with his timing. I wanted, you know, more time or whatever that, you know, whatever that is. And I want to deal with that in a delicate way. This is not a Pastoral conversation where I'm talking to some person, but I'm talking to the masses around theological ideas. And so the scripture says the Lord is not slow in keeping his promises, as some understand slowness, but he's patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. What that means is this first Peter 3, 9. What that means is God's solution to the problems in the world today are us. That we would go out and be salt and light, that we would engage the loss, that we would share the gospel, that. That we would move toward the hurting and care for them. That we would bind the wounds of those who, who are wounded. And one day Jesus is going to come back and finish the job. And so right now there's this spiritual war happening where the angels and demons are fighting, but one day Christ is going to return on that white horse as a, as a ruler, as a military leader, and he's going to finish the job. And the devil, Satan and all of his demons are going to be thrown into the lake of fire. People ask the question, why would God create hell? Well, hell was a space created for Satan. It wasn't created to send bad people. Now people who reject God choose to go there. But it God. It's not God's desire to send anyone to hell. He says that. He says, I do not delight in the, the perishing of the wicked. It's not his first desire, I should say. And so the justice, nature, character of God deals with those who reject him by sending them to the place or allowing them to go to the place where they desire to go. Wow, did that check off? Reform?

[Levi]

I checked off.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Was that reformed enough?

[Levi]

It was very eloquently said.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I do think it's good to talk about hell for a minute because I'll talk to so many people who, you know, just. I don't know if some could be. Call themselves Christians or, or they have a different religion or they're atheists, I don't know. But it's. So many people that I've talked to over the years really believe that hell is actually right here on Earth, that we're living in hell. So they don't believe in a. A real existence of it as a separate place that you go to in the afterlife. And they're like, no, I think I'm living in it right now.

[Levi]

Interesting.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

We're gonna be sadly, sadly mistaken in that what happens on Earth, there's something here called common grace. And just the reality that we can walk down the street and not be killed or tortured. I mean, that. That is a common grace. That is true for the majority of people in the majority of places. In hell, there. There is nothing that remotely resembles the goodness of God. The only thing of God in hell is his wrath. And so again, it's a place created for the devil and for demons. And so what we experience here on earth, for Christians, for those who have trusted in the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ for their salvation, in a lot of ways, this is their hell. This is as bad as it will ever be. All that we have to look forward to is being in the presence of God forever and ever and ever in his kingdom. But for those who have not trusted in the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and this is actually your heaven. This is as good as it will ever be. This place where there's disease, there's death, there's heartbreak, there's grief. This is as bad as it is. But for even, for every person, right, we can walk down. We can walk in a forest, and the sun will come through the trees and. And the sunlight will. Will hit our face in a way that brings warmth and the. The leaves cracking under our. Our feet with every step. And it just seems like all is right in the world. It's maybe 70 degrees. The temperature is right. There's a breeze, and it's just. There's. There's a peace about it. That. Those moments where we laugh with friends till our stomach hurts or we see a beautiful sunset, those are simply commercials. Those are simply commercials for the kingdom of God. I mean, just a tiny little glimpse. The. The very best days on earth are actually the floor of joy in heaven. Yeah, that. That is. It's the worst you will ever experience in heaven. So this earth. Yeah, it's middle ground. I mean, the kingdom is. Is already, but not yet. Some say we have. We can experience some of the goodness of God here, but it's very veiled until we see him face to face. First Corinthians 13 says, Tell me about this golf story.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Oh, man, you have a crazy story.

[Levi]

I've been dying to hear this.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, it was wild. I. Okay, let me start by saying I've been, you know, to the Amazon jungle three times on mission trips. Been to Haiti six times on mission trips. I've been to Africa, to Kenya, to Rwanda, to different parts of. To Zambia, different parts of Africa multiple times on mission trips. And sometimes you go on those trips and people will come back with these crazy spiritual stories. Well, they're like, oh, you know, one, somebody was like this 12 year old girl picked this man up above her head. You know, she was possessed by demon. She was speaking in these deep voices. And they'll have those, or the, the village will have this story of, you know, which doctor came through and did this. And, and I've witnessed to a witch doctor. I've seen those. I've seen like a altar of sacrifice. I've seen weird stuff overseas. I've never dealt with a demonic in close proximity, ever, ever, ever, ever. Okay, just firsthand, I've heard the stories firsthand. I've never dealt with it. I'm writing this book, I'm working on this three year research project to try to understand all that the Bible teaches about spiritual warfare. I'm in a country club in Utah, one of the nicest country clubs in the United States of America. I'm there for a ministry fundraising event. Okay. I'm an invited guest. I'm in the lobby. This guy comes off the course, he's got his Titleist visor on, he's got his polo tucked into his khaki shorts, his golf cleats. And I just talking to him, just, we're just having a conversation. I don't, I don't know the guy. And I began, I'm gonna share the gospel with him. So I'm like, hey, do you have a faith? He's like, yeah, I'm a, you know, I'm kind of a Christian. Like, what do you mean by you're kind of a Christian? You know? And, and he says, he says, I have a really hard time praying. I said, what do you mean by that? And he says, well, when I go to pray, it's like I have this physical response, like my throat closes up. It's like I can't pray. To which I say, man, that sounds demonic. And I'm not trying to, right? I'm just having a conversation, you know, I'm like, oh, it sounds demonic. And he goes, oh my goodness, not demon. You sound like my mom. It's not demonic. And he kind of gets belligerent to that. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, whatever. Not, not demonic. Point noted. And we keep talking and I say, well, have you ever had anybody pray over you? And he's like, yeah, people have prayed for me all the time. He's still kind of like put off by me. I was like, whatever, preacher boy. And, and right then like my, my friend walks up and so Adam walks up and, and he goes, all right, well, why don't you pray for me? And I'm so glad that he walked up so I wasn't alone in this, because I have a witness. Country club. And I put my hand on his back and I start praying, and I'm like, lord, would you just bless and protect my. My friend here? And would you help him to walk in righteousness? And I pray that he'd be able to. To have conversations with you and pray just like, as I am right now. And if there's anything demonic, if there's anything evil working here, I pray that you would bind it in Jesus name. And as I say that, he goes. And he starts, like, convulsing.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And. And I'm like, oh, wow, what's happening? And he starts making this noise, this awful noise, and these sounds, and it just like. Almost like a seizure, and his arms, like, fly up over his head behind his back, and he starts contorting. And I'm like, what is going on? People, as I've told the story, they were like, were you scared? And I would love to be like, no, of course not. And I was so scared.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

So scared.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I was like. I remember spraying, but, like, my inner narrative is like, please don't jump on me. Please don't jump on me. Please don't jump on me.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Did you know, though, what was happening?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Like, immediately I was like, okay, like, we're here.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Like, this is actually happening in front of me.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Skeptic, though, you know, I'm like, is he doing this? And really then, like. And when I got scared, I'm like, realized, like, oh, he's not doing this. This is not epilepsy. This is not medical. This is only spiritual. Like, there's some. There's something else here. And so what happens is, I continue to pray. He gets bigger and bigger and louder and. And then kind of. And then it calms down. And so I keep praying and I go, in Jesus name, amen. And he's just kind of left there listless. And he looks up at me and he goes, well, I didn't expect that. And I was like, brother, that makes two of us. And. And it's weird because I've got to check out. I've got to check out of my cabin. Like, I'm late at this point.

[Levi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And so I'm like, okay. And so Adam and I run off because we were sharing a room, and. And with him, it's. He. He's in ministry kind of, too. And. And with him, it was like a Wednesday. He was like, oh, yeah, that was demons. And that's what's weird about this is like some people, it's super normative, right? Some people make too much about it. Some people, like never think about it. And that's what you realize when you're talking about the spiritual realm is everybody's in different places. And so I'm like on the phone calling my, my charismatic brethren. What do I need to do now, man? How do I make sure I'm good on this? And yeah, and that really was a big pivot in this journey where I'm just like, it was like the Lord was like, okay, hey, just so you know, this is real, this is true. And then there were these. When you look for it, you start to see, okay, the they, they're not super happy about what we're doing here.

[Grand Canyon University Speaker]

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[Jonathan Pacluta]

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[Grand Canyon University Speaker]

Your family, your friends and your community. Whether your pursuit involves a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree, GCU's online, on campus and hybrid learning environments are designed to help you achieve your unique academic, personal and professional goals. Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University Private Christian affordable visit gcu.edu the NIV Application Bible features thousands of study notes drawn from the bestselling NIV Application Commentary series. Throughout the Bible, original meaning notes help you explore the meaning of the biblical text, while application notes help you relate the Bible's teachings to your everyday life. There are also book introductions that provide perspective and application for every book of the Bible, along with character profiles, questions to spur your own growth, and articles that explore the different aspects of God's character.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Together, these tools will help you learn.

[Grand Canyon University Speaker]

What the Bible means and discover what it means for your life today. Find out more@nivapplication Bible.com that's nivapplication Bible.com.

[Levi]

As you've been on this journey and insane research about spiritual warfare has your own opinions on. You know, I should say I think sometimes it's easy to over spiritualize. We might say, yeah, it has. How is your opinion beliefs changed as you've experienced things like this? Like if I see, you know, a guy on the side of the street who's just acting out. Like, am I. Is that automatically a demon possessed guy? Or how does that work?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, like, where does schizophrenia come into play?

[Levi]

Right?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Mental illness, drugs, and, you know, I don't. I think all of those things are working together. There's a physical aspect to us, there's a mental aspect to us, and there's a spiritual aspect to us. And those three things are like our. Our thoughts impact our body. And this. The. By the way, our science is. Our very best science today is catching up to these biblical realities that are thousands of years old.

[Levi]

It's incredible.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Where he says, do not conform any longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Romans 12, to set your mind on the things above. But then Proverbs 4:23 says above, ll guard your heart versus the wellspring of life. Everything you do flows out of it. And so it's this reality of what we feed our mind. It impacts the way we feel, which impacts what we do. So the, the mental, physical and spiritual aspects are all at work, right? There's this kind of unholy Trinity. We know the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There's kind of this unholy trinity at work, which is the demonic, the worldly. And our flesh. Our flesh desires the things of this world which are held out to us by the demonic realm, right? So Satan is tempting us with the things of the world which our flesh desires at all times. So as you talk about over spiritualizing, I kind of. I'm kind of in this camp today just to kind of show you where I'm at. It's like, I don't know that you can over spiritualize because everything has spiritual implications. But it's like you can make too much of it, meaning, like it's. You can emotionally respond to it, like with fear. We know that perfect love drives out fear, right? Just like we don't have to be afraid. We. We know that greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world. So it's like, it's almost like where if somebody, like, if there was a demon manifesting, we'd be like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe It'd be the thing that we talk about forever and ever. Never. Because people are interested in it. It's kind of like, yeah, that happens, right? That's a thing. And when you. And what. That's where I start reading. You know, Candace, I'm on this journey and I'm reading the scriptures and I'm like, you know, that sure did happen to Jesus a lot. Like he. He's, you know, the Garrison demoniac, right? Luke 8. He's going across the Sea of Galilee and, and he's going to go see this guy. Do you remember, do you guys, you know what happened there on the Sea of Galilee? And this is when he stormed.

[Levi]

The storm came.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

That's exactly right. There's a storm. And it was, it was kind of unprecedented where the disciples, these are, these are career fishermen, right? They've been on that sea their whole life, since they were a child. They've fished on that sea every day. And all of the sudden they're afraid for their life. That tells me this storm, this is kind of. This is like something they had never seen. And Jesus is sleeping. He's taking a little siesta, you know, a little nap, little nappy nap on the boat. And they're like, what are you doing? How can you sleep at a time like this? Do you not care? They're like, do you not care about us? And Jesus gets up and he's like, do I not care? Hush. And everything. I mean, the boat's about to capsize. It's being thrown to and fro by the waves, and he's like, hush. And it's like all of a sudden, everything's calm done. I believe, and some, a lot of scholarship agrees with me that that storm was demonic. You know, as we think about what can they do and what are their limitations. I believe that storm was demonic. They're trying to prevent him from going across this sea to get to the Garrison Demoniac where Jesus is going to heal this man. There's actually two. The, the Gospels tell us there are two guys there gonna heal this man. And now the gospel is going to go out to the Gentiles. It's going to go past the Jews, past the nation of Israel, past God's people and out to the Gentiles. This guy's going to be the first evangelist reaching the nations. But right now he's bound up by 2,000 demons, cutting himself, you know, day and night, it says, crying out, living among the dead. And Jesus is going to say, he's going to go up to him in the same way. He said, hush, and the sea's calmed. He's going to say, come out. And they're going to say, man, please, will you just send us into the pigs? And he sends them into the pigs, and the pigs run down the hill and they drown themselves in. In the ocean. So what you see there in both of the Cases, the storm and the demons is how much more powerful God is over the demonic realm. So if we're in right relationship with Jesus, we don't have anything to fear. We can walk in the courage and the confidence that we have. He says, you know, the authority over such things. And so that's what the peace that we have. Wow.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Can we follow up with your golf story? Because what happened to that guy, I'm.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So glad you did. So I'm like, I'm check. I'm racing out of the. The place and I'm like, oh, I've got to make sure he knows the gospel, you know?

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So basically I. I pack up my things and I go back and I'm like, okay, I'm trying to find. Find him. And I do. And I'm just like, hey, where are you at with Jesus and the way that I. I share the gospel? It's with two questions. And so I'll go. I just go between one and 10, 10 being certain, one being not so sure. If you died right now, how certain are you that you would go to heaven? Which is an amazing question just for. It's a great question and your viewers to consider between 1 and 10, 10 being certain, 1 being not so sure. If you died right now, how certain are you that you would go to heaven? And the reason I asked that is because 22 years ago, someone asked me and I said 7. And they showed me in first John 5, 13. It says, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know. Know that you have eternal life. Says that we can be a 10, not because of our own works, but because of what God did for us through his son, Jesus. And he said, I would have told you that I was a 10. That's what he tells me. He goes, but I wasn't. He was. I'm realizing right now that. That there was something that was. Was really coming in between the way of me actually believing in God.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Wow.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And trusting in his Son.

[Levi]

Wow.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And he said, so I wasn't a 10, but I believe I am now. And I said the second question, if you stood before God and he said, why should I let you in? What would you say? And I just let him think on that. And he goes, man, he goes. Right now, what I would say is, because he sent his son, Jesus Christ to die for my sins and he raised him from the dead, I have nothing else to boast in. It's like if I give you tickets to the Lakers game, Right. Tomorrow night, I think it is. If I give you tickets to the Lakers game and. And you go there to that arena and they stop you and they say, why should we let you in? What are you going to say?

[Levi]

Because I have tickets.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And if they say, did you pay for the tickets?

[Levi]

Not a chance.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It was a gift. That's how salvation works, Right. If we stand before God and he said, why should I let you in? We can't say because I was a good person, because I was born in a Christian home, because I tried hard, because I did this, because I did that. It's because you, God, sent your only son, Jesus to die for my sins, and you raised him from the dead. That's the only thing that I can boast in that story right there that changed my life. And so for this friend, now he's able to walk in the confidence of the Holy Spirit, that, you know, that he doesn't have to be bound up by whatever it was that was trying to keep him from talking to God. It's good news.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

That's the best news ever.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

And incredible. I'm so glad he received that.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I just can't imagine that physically happening. I've seen so many videos of.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. Now Tick Tock.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Demonic. Yeah. Possession coming out of people. And for some of the videos that I've seen, it's like, it doesn't stop. I mean, there's many, many demons that come out. And it's interesting. And there's always that little bit of skepticism still. Like, is it real? Are some of these people f. Thinking, acting?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I mean, you see it on, like now, it's like with Tick Tock and with baptisms and people walking through the stores, there's deliverance people. And I. I would say I have skepticism and I think some level of, you know, is it real? Is it not? It depends, right? Sometimes it's real, sometimes it's not. But I think the enemy doesn't want us to know that he's real. And. And sometimes he would love to hide behind. Oh, that's just schizophrenia. And sometimes it may simply be a brain injury, sometimes it may be a mental, you know, mental illness combined with the spiritual. And sometimes it may be just spiritual. And we can't sort all that out perfectly. But our response is the same. We. We pray, we fast, we ask God, like, here's the reality. I do not. I, Jonathan Pakleuta, do not have the power to overcome a demon. I'm not strong enough. I can't But Jesus can. And so I am going to God, and I'm saying, that's why we pray. I'm like, lord, will you please remove this? Can you. And it says that he has given me the authority, but it's his authority. You know, he says in Matthew 28, I All authority under heaven and earth has been given to me. And so I'm. I am operating with the. The authority of Jesus, but it's not my authority alone. It's his authority granted to me.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

If someone feels like they're experiencing spiritual oppression in their life, what is a step that they can take?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, and let me just even bring some clarity to that word, because that's a big word for people that are. Some of them are. Might be hearing that for the first time. Typically, like, the way I was taught is, if you have the Holy Spirit, you cannot be possessed by a demon, because where there's the Spirit, a demon can't be. And you, You're. You know. So we would say a person cannot be possessed, but they can be oppressed. But this is interesting, because if I said, like, I would never say I'm possessed by this cup. Right?

[Levi]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I would say I possess this cup. Cup. Does that mean if I possess this cup, does that mean I'm inside the cup?

[Levi]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

No, it means I'm. I'm holding the cup. And so it's weird the way that we describe this to say, oh, I'm possessed by a demon, but the demon is inside of me. So like, we, We. We say these words that become really normal to us. They're passed on, you know, from Christian to Christian to Christian, over time, pastor to Christian, and we say these ideas. Well, as I'm reading the Bible, like I'm on a deserted island, just trying to really understand what I believe about this. The word there is actually demonized. And so possession and oppression are kind of these. These labels that we've invented and created. But the word that they actually use in the Greek, it's a. It would best be translated demonized. And so it's like demons are messing with me, you know, one way or the other.

[Levi]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And the way that we're given over to them is through consistent, unrepentant sin or like some gateway, like messing with a Ouija board. And just think, no, I'm just having fun. It's not a big deal. Portal.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

It's the portal wouldn't do that.

[Levi]

It is, It's. It's. It's. It's crazy. Do you, as you've been on this three year journey, have you seen those gateways present themselves in very clear ways? Similar ways every.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I mean, off. I don't want to say every day. I want to overstate. But like drugs, that's why it's hard to know what's physical and what's satanic.

[Levi]

Got it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Because they use drugs to, To.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Have influence over someone. And so if you continue to do LSD or you continue, you know, fentanyl or heroin or meth or THC for that matter, you continue to give yourself over to something to alter your mind. You're. It's really an invitation. Ephesians 4 says, did not give the devil a foothold. Footholds turn to strongholds. Okay.

[Levi]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Footholds turn to strongholds. So this is the way I would say it, in kind pithy way. When you sin, you let them in. And I don't mean like one, oh, I had this fleeting thought, or I, I'm, I messed up this one time. But I'm talking about when you continue to engage in unrepentant sin over and over and over and over, you're creating that gateway, you're giving that stronghold, you're giving that foothold which then turns into a stronghold. And, and as I say that, I know for you guys, it's like, like you're like, yeah, that seems experientially true. And so I'm trying to explain our experience with what the scripture says. And it's like, God loves us so much. He just like laid it out for us. He's like, hey, I want you to know this is how it works.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

So is. Would there be a difference though, with people that like, feel a dark oppression on them versus someone that, like the guy you experienced on the golf course, that, that literally had something demonic come out of him?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I mean, he didn't, he didn't think he had something inside of him. So he didn't even. He kind of brushed it off.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Right.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

But what about the person that is like, are there. Do people recognize that? I guess that's my question. Would someone recognize to say, like, I feel like there is this stronghold over me.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

That I want to get out. I don't know how to get it out.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, here's. I've never said this before, so maybe because I'm in your presence, this came to mind. But it's, it's almost like they are actors. They. A lot of times we think what they allow us to think in a sense where it's like, do they want to be known? And so there are people who are possessed that are like, man, I really sense that there's a demonic presence messing with me. And then there are people who are possessed that would be belligerent toward that idea. Like, what are you talking about? No way. I'm, I'm insulted by the notion that you would think that. And so I think, I think it depends. And I think there is, you know, in this, this individual's case, when he was younger, he had messed around with the occult and he had, in a lot of ways blocked that memory. And they had, there was, there was something that happened when they were walking around as a kid, and it had a stronghold in his life. Now what that's going to do is if anybody's listening or watching has been, you know, messed around with a Ouija board or they did something foolish when they were, when they were a kid. I was just say, I just want to keep going back. You don't have to operate in fear. You just have to move toward Jesus.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And so if there's anything hidden in your life, you confess it, you forsake it. You have others pray for you. This is James 5, 16. Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. For the prayers of a righteous person. Person are powerful and effective. Powerful and effective, it says. And so we don't have to operate in fear. But I do think, yes, to answer the question, I do think there are. Are people with a, A greater demonic presence than somebody who's walking by the spirit and just tempted in ways or, or, you know, they want to discourage us. They want to try to drive us towards disunity. That's. Ephesians 6 says your battle is not a flesh and blood, but against rulers.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Do you think that person that is really oppressed that, that they, that someone or people that come alongside them to pray for them, that that spirit can be removed without them doing something. Doing something themselves, like praying along with them? Do you know what I'm trying to ask?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, yeah, I think, yes. I think it, like, can you pray.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Something demonic out of someone if they're not really willing to receive it or they don't want to.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think that would. If they were like, no, I want to remain a willing participant.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Of, of this.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I'm, I'm partnership with you to be willing to.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I, I do not believe that we're going to be successful in that.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I will say there's one instance and I'm just, it doesn't like, who cares what I think. I've got a two year degree in art from a college you've never heard of a technical. But so I just kind of go back to, to the scriptures. There's, there's one instance where he said the, your, the faith of your friends is the guy on the mat, the paralytic on the mat. And the friends carry him to the roof and they lower him down. And he says, because of the faith of your friends. And so, you know, God may honor the prayers of, of righteous people faithfully praying even in someone's denial. But in, in most cases I would think that that person would have to say, hey, I do not want to partner with this darkness anymore. And there's a, you know, there's another situation where the demon leaves, but the person doesn't go and pursue the things of God. And he says, if that demon's going to come back and find the house clean and is going to be seven times stronger. And so we see that scripture too, right? And then there's this other story for these seven brothers. It's Acts 19. There's a Jewish priest named Sceva. He has seven sons. And the seven sons see Paul, the Apostle Paul and he's. And like Paul's doing these amazing healings and, and, and freeing people from demons. And so these Jewish sons, the sons of this Jewish priest, they just say what Paul said and they said, hey, in the name of Jesus who Paul talks about, come out. And it says the demon possessed man turned to them and gave them such a beating that they leave naked and bleeding. Seven guys get wit by one man with a demon. It says the seven guys leave without. Like you go into a fight with clothes on, right? And you leave with no clothes on. Like you got whipped.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Like nobody's like, who won? You know, Tyson, Jake, Paul. Yeah. No, they're like, you got whipped because you don't have clothes on and you're bleeding like you're whipped. And so it's. And you say, well, why, why did that happen? Happened because they didn't know Jesus. They just knew about him, but they didn't actually know him. And so that's why I keep going back to like, that's really key having that relationship.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yeah, that's good. Okay, we got to get to our listener question today.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Come on.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

This is from Natalie and she asks how do I know it's God speaking and not just my mind or the enemy?

[Levi]

That's a great question.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

It's such a good question because I wrestle with it this all of the time.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

I'm like, how do I know when God's speaking to me? How do I know when it's the enemy whispering things to me?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

How do I know it's just not my own mind turning over and over what I want, what I don't want. Trying to control a situation.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. So John 10 says, My sheep know my voice. But the scripture also says that Satan masquerades like an angel of light. And so he is trying at times to. The. The enemy is trying to. Trying to present, to be like God. And. And so here's how. When I don't know what to do if I'm. If I'm lost in my car, this is a good way to think about it. When I'm lost in my car, I'm so directionally challenged. By the way, like, I got lost trying to find. This morning. I was on the wrong side of the. There's like a. There's like a kind of subway barrier.

[Levi]

Out in the middle of the street, right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And then there's a barrier, and I can't cross the street. And so I can walk like half a mile that way or half a mile this way. And I'm so lost right now. So I'm directionally challenged. So I rely heavily on what's called gps. Okay.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Yep.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Global Positioning system gps. So if you. This is how you remember this. So when I am looking to hear from God, I gather my group. Okay, God's people. Sixteen proverbs say, wisdom comes from the council of many. So I gather my group. I gather people who have the Holy Spirit in one room, not one off conversations. Like, if I'm really trying to hear from God on something, I gather God's people. I'm like, hey, would you pray for me? Would you speak into this? Okay. I persist in prayer. I ask God, I'm like, lord, what would you have me do? Help me hear from you, make your voice clear. Would you make me deaf to the enemy? Would you help me to hear from you clearly? I persist in prayer, and I search the scriptures. And so I've got 66 books which I know are the word of God, where, like, you know, John Piper says, you want to hear God, read the Bible out loud. And so I've got. I've got God's word very clearly here. So I gather my group, I persist in prayer. I search the scriptures, GPS through that. Right. That's how I know if it's from God. Like If I send something like, he says, hey, I want you to stop drinking coffee. I'm like, that can't be God, right? But I'm like, all right, I'm going to gather my people. I'm like, hey, this is what I sense God saying. Do y' all think this might be him? And. And then I searched the scriptures. Hey, is there anything here that would maybe make me think I need to do that? And. And then I. And then I persist in prayer. Lord, would you help me? Help me know. I. I heard something. I don't know if that's an intrusive thought. I don't know if that's the enemy. I don't know if that's just a weird thought because of breakfast tacos I had. Like, what. What is that you. And I'm. I'm asking, and I'm listening. And so gps, get out of my group. Persistent prayer. Search the scriptures.

[Levi]

I think that's really encouraging.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Fantastic answer.

[Levi]

Really encouraging that, like, we all have intru. Intrusive thoughts and you can try and discern, but, like, there's so much poss. There's a lot of possibility for work to be put in.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Levi]

And I think that's really what a lot of. Even the younger generation misses is it's, you know, thoughts that come to mind, and you're kind of sitting alone figuring out what something means, what to do with something, when really there's so much work that can be done to discern. And it's up to us to really put the best foot forward and. And gather your people, pray and search the scriptures.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Let's go.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

That's good. That's good stuff.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Thanks.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

This is a good episode.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Come on.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

Okay, see you guys back here next week.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

See you next week.

[Jonathan Pacluta]

And for all of you, remember, our free gift for you this season is called the no Fear Guide. Talking about spiritual stuff is really scary for some people, but it doesn't have to be. Go to Candace.com to download. And it's also in our show notes. Until next time. Be grateful all day, every day. Candy Rock Entertainment.

[Grand Canyon University Speaker]

All rights reserved.

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