← The Catechism in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
The Catechism in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 328: How We Pray (Part 4 Intro w/ Sr. Miriam James Heidland) (2025)
00:57:43
In this fourth and final pillar of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we learn how to take everything we’ve absorbed this year and apply it to our relationship with God through prayer. Sr. Miriam James Heidland, SOLT joins Fr. Mike Schmitz to talk about how to pray, some common obstacles to prayer, and some of the incredible fruits of prayer that await us if we put the next thirty-seven days of guidance into action.
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- [00:00]
A
Before we get started, I just wanted to offer a quick thank you to all those who have supported the Catechism in a Year or the Bible in a Year podcast. We hear stories every day about how those shows have transformed people's lives. And because of your prayers and financial gifts, you are a significant part of that. You might ask a question, though. Question is, what does Ascension do with these financial gifts? Great question. The answer is we make authentically Catholic podcasts and videos and other digital content to help people know the Catholic faith and grow closer to God. And we do it all for free. If you found this podcast to be helpful in your life and would like to help us continue making free Catholic content we can post online, please consider making a financial contribution, an ongoing financial contribution, by going to ascensionpress.com support. That's ascensionpress.com support. Thank you and God bless. Hi, my name is Father Mike Schmitz, and you're listening to the Catechism in a Year podcast where we encounter God's plan of sheer goodness for us revealed in Scripture and passed down through the tradition of the Catholic faith. The Catechism in here is brought to you by ascension. In 365 days, we'll read through the Catechism of the Catholic Church, discovering our identity and God's family as we journey together toward our heavenly home. This is day 328, and today we're introducing the fourth and final pillar of the Catechism. To help me introduce pillar number four, I have a very special guest with me, Sister Miriam James Heidland. So, so, so grateful that she's here right now. But before we get to Sister, a few reminders. I'm using, as always, the Ascension edition of the Catechism, which includes the Foundations of Faith approach. It is incredible. Sister and I were talking about how beautiful and amazing this is, but if you don't have it, you can follow along with any recent version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can also download your own Catechism in a Year Reading plan by visiting ascensionpress.com ciy and lastly, you can click follow or subscribe in your podcast app for daily updates and daily notifications. Today is 3. 28, and we are welcoming Sister Miriam James. Sister, thank you so much for being here with us.
- [02:01]
B
Hi, friend. I'm delighted to be here. Yay.
- [02:03]
A
I recognize whenever I talk with you how quickly I talk because you're always so calm and you have this sense of, like, just joyful peace. And I think, wow, I am scrambling. Like, well, I.
- [02:15]
B
People often Compare the two of us, because I think when I get going, I get really going, and they're like, between you and Father Mike Schmitz, I can't listen to podcasts at one and a half speed between the both of you. Like, I have to slow it down. So I think we're in good company.
- [02:25]
A
I don't know.
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B
I think it's a sign of a bright mind. That's what I like to tell you.
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A
Also, it's a sign of a mind that gets bored really quickly. So I need to speed things up. So, Sister, we know each other for a number of years, but I'm guessing there's some people who might be listening who don't know you or your story. Would you mind just how did you come to faith? How did you become a sister? Maybe something like that?
- [02:48]
B
Sure, yeah. I'm a member of the Society of Our lady of the Most Holy Trinity, the salt community. And I have been a member of my community about 25 years. I grew up Catholic. My parents, we went to mass every Sunday, and I think, you know, we went to ccd, all of the church functions. But I never fell in love with Jesus, and I didn't know that was really a possibility. And in our home, I talk about this very often, as you know, it was almost kind of fear based. It's like, you don't do this, otherwise you're going to hell. And I learned some of maybe the rules of Catholicism, but I didn't learn about the heart. And so I played Division 1 volleyball in college. I wanted to work for ESPN. And during that time, I just also had kind of a pretty major meltdown in my life. And God sent a Catholic priest into my life. When we would talk about the catechism, we talk about prayer. I mean, my mom and dad were wonderfully holy, but there was something about Father that was just captivating of that. Man loved Jesus, and I'd never seen anything like it. And I know that's where my great love of the priesthood. And so I graduated from college and before I started to work in the media, I went to one of our missions, and it was there that I heard Jesus call me. And so that was 25 years ago. And that was, I mean, 25 years. That's the very beginning of a journey of healing and restoration. So I do a lot of work on healing retreats and things like that. A lot of work with priests and religious sisters in the area of healing. So, yeah, it's a great honor.
- [04:01]
A
And that's so awesome. So incredible. So thank you so much for all you're doing. Now. We were brainstorming, like, who could. Who should be the person that we get to talk with about this fourth pillar. And it was hands down, I was like, if we can get Sister Miriam, that would be the best. So I'm so grateful that you're willing to say yes and make this time. When it comes to this fourth pillar of the Catechism, or even just when it comes to the catechism in general, I guess I don't know if it want to be too forward about this, but how has the Catechism been part of your life now? You could say, like, I don't even know, really. Part of my life, but I imagine it has been. How has it affected or influenced your life?
- [04:38]
B
Sure. I think for me, it was actually in graduate school, so I did a master's degree in theology with the Augusta Institute. So I've known Dr. Sri for a very long time. And it was during. I mean, because, you know, use the catechism as a resource. So for a long time, I thought of it as a resource. And so you, you know, you'd plan a talk or you'd want to give a teaching, and you'd pull, like, the appropriate quotes from the catechism. But in the class on mystagogy, we had to read extensive portions of the catechism, like, long. And I remember sitting at my desk, just read the Catechism, and I just remember finding myself weeping.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I would just close the book, and I'm like, this is so beautiful. Like, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. You know, very few people leave the Church because of what the Church teaches, but what they think the Church teaches. And I'm like, this is. This is stunning. I just want to be able to come downstairs, like, does anybody have any idea what we believe? Like, this is so. It's gorgeous. And even reviewing this section for this time with you today, I just. I'm like, jesus, I love you. Like, this is so beautiful. Heart, mind, body and soul. Like, our faith makes sense. And the Lord's not asking us to deny our intellect or to deny the deeper recesses of our heart, but he's bringing us into union and communion. And that's really what prayer is about. So I think we're going to talk about. It's not something we do. It's a relationship. It's who we are with the Lord.
- [05:46]
A
Yeah, that's so good. And especially so everyone as part of this community, the catechism in your community, yesterday, for them was the last Day of the third pillar. Okay, life in Christ. And it was, you know, when I talked to Dr. Mary Healy, introducing that third pillar, we know we had kind of shared that there's going to be some challenging pieces to this. There's going to be some aspects where every one of us, we all have our preconceived things or our preferences. We have kind of our things that are like, oh, yeah, this is what everyone should do, and other things that we're like, I don't want to do those things. And yet now we're making this transition from, okay, here's how we're called to have a life in Christ and conform our hearts to Jesus's into this section on prayer, where that's in so many ways, that's how our hearts become more and more like his. And yeah, of course, living like according to his commands, but also like knowing his heart and just because it's all God's grace, we just cooperating with this. And so, yeah, especially for those who are just Yesterday was day three, 27, and they press play and they heard the end of that moral life, especially if they find themselves still convicted, I think, or still maybe challenged more than they are consoled that I think that there is a word of hope here too, is that's like, okay, you're, you're not done. If you still struggle that, that the life of grace is theirs. And we move forward by developing this relationship right in deepening this. So I'm. If it's okay, before we go any further, if we just say a prayer. Yes, that'd be okay. And then, then we'll launch into this fourth pillar, this last section of the catechism. We'll just pray in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. Father in heaven, we give you praise and thanks in the name of your son, Jesus Christ. We ask you to please receive our thanks, receive our praise this day. I thank you for the community who have been pressing play. I thank you for all of us who have been journeying through these first three pill pillars of the catechism all the way to this day, to the beginning of this fourth pillar. This, this last installment essentially of your teaching, your self revelation to the world. We ask that you please on this day remind us that you desire not merely that we know more, but that we love more. Not merely that we have more information, but that we allow you by your grace and by our cooperation to have transformation in you. Help us to be more and more like you. Lord God, meet us in our frustrations. Meet us in the dryness of prayer. Meet us in the battle of prayer. And meet us in this moment as we open our hearts to you. Fill those hearts with the fire of your love and help us to love you and to love our neighbor better. Help us to be prayers. Because, Lord God, we do not know how to pray as we ought. So send your Holy Spirit now and always in the name of him. And we pray this in the mighty name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen. The name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. So, sister, as we launch into this fourth pillar of the catechism, so there. There are some people probably who have never experienced or encountered read this section. So what can they expect? What are some of the main themes or takeaways of the fourth pillar on prayer?
- [08:49]
B
Oh, there's so much to. There's so much to glean here and there's so much to sink into. I. When I read it and was just praying through it, I. For me, it's such a beautiful revelation of the. Of prayer, of the rich culture of prayer that we have. And I think today, especially in kind of contemporary society, there's all these ways to pray that are outside of our faith tradition. And we as Catholics don't even know that. Our own tradition of prayer. And so I think going through it and seeing it and just seeing all the beautiful reiterations of the ways we pray. And even back from the Old Testament in Genesis, when God comes in search of Adam and Eve and you see that call and response from the very beginning, we see just the human heart at prayer. So this is not something that we're going to put on our to do list of like, I have to get my prayer in. But who we are, it's a response to the relationship that we have as Adam and Eve awakened to relationship, you and I, in our hearts, we're meant to live in relationship. And to me it's the hallmark. It's just so incredibly beautiful. I can't wait to dive into it.
- [09:44]
A
Well, as you mentioned, everything you're saying, I'm like, oh, that and this and this. Like so example, the call and response, one of the real revelations or deep revelations of in this section, but also I think in the other pillars as well, is that I think we're going to hear today. Prayer is always a response.
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B
Yes.
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A
Like it's always God's initiative. And can you say something about that?
- [10:04]
B
Sure. Well, that man's creation is a response to God's goodness. Like the very first paragraph of the catechism, you Know, one of my professors at the Guts Institute would always talk about that, that, you know, our creation is a response to his own blessed life. And that's why God calls out. So he's always the initiator of the gift. We say that theology of the body, that the man's initiator of the covenant, you know, God's initiator of the covenant, he's initiator of the gift. And we, as the bride and whole, are responding as the bride to the gift of the bridegroom. And so God's desire, any desire that we have for prayer, any of a desire for a desire, maybe one day have a desire, it comes from God. So we don't have to, as Father Mark Tubes says, we don't have to do the heavy lifting, right? Everything we have is gift. And it's, like, terrifying for us because it reminds us that we're so little and we're not in control, thank God. But it's so beautiful because that means every aspect of my life is under the sovereign lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he comes to reveal himself at all times. And that's beautiful.
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A
I love this. So if God is the initiator and our prayer is always a response, how does that change how we approach prayer? Like, how has that changed how you approach prayer when this truth is not just kind of like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know God initiates. And I respond, but how has that changed your prayer to know this deep and profound truth that, like Father Mark said, God's doing the heavy lifting. We don't have to do that.
- [11:24]
B
I think it gives us. Well, it gives us great comfort. I think on a human level that this is not all up to me. And many times I think it does feel like it's all up to us. And we probably all showed up to prayer at times and be like, lord, anytime you want to do something, like, I'm doing it like you want to. You know, that's just so great. We're just so little like that. But the truth that God is real, that this is not. We're not manifesting to the universe some random intention that we hope the universe hears and responds. But we're speaking to a real person, divine person. We're speaking to Jesus. We're speaking to the triune God who makes a covenant with us, who dwells within us. And I really believe, Father Mike, I really believe. When St. Paul says, you know, to pray without ceasing, he's talking about the wine cellar, like in the Song of Songs. He's Talking about the constant communion of the covenant that God makes with us, that we can't make with ourselves, that God gives that to us and he brings us into his own divine life. And that changes. That means I'm never alone.
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A
Right.
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B
That means for all the experiences you and I have had of abandonment or rejection or fear or shame or overwhelm, it stands right in the face of all those human experiences that God says God is who he says he is. And that's Scripture, right? That's Bible in the year, that's God is who he says he is. And the more like Moses, I come into agreement with that and the truth, I'm learning more about God, then I rest more deeply, and then the truth of my being comes alive, and that changes everything.
- [12:38]
A
So it sounds like one of the things you're saying is the relationship is the key here, because you're not just going through the motions. You're not just saying these words. In fact, Mike Gormley, you know Gomer.
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B
Yes. He's so wonderful.
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A
He's so great. He. At one point, I remember he was years ago, and it stuck with me. He said, as Catholics, we weren't necessarily taught. He said, we were taught how to. We're taught to say our prayers, not how to pray.
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B
Oh, amen.
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A
And so that sense of, like, what we were saying is. No, the way we pray always is by living in this relationship with God. So it's the matter of he's always initiating, and we always have the opportunity to respond. I love the idea. Not the idea, the truth. That if God is initiating always, we never have to fight for his attention.
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B
Oh, that's a good word.
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A
That he's doing. The heavy. That's the heavy lifting is the only thing. It's why it always reminds me of the very first paragraph here. I think it's. First paragraph. Yeah, it is. Where St. Therese says, for me, prayer is a surge of the heart. It's a simple look, turn toward heaven, cry of recognition and of love, embracing with trial and joy. That sense that she just gets to look at the Father. He's already gazing at her, and he's already the one moving.
- [13:46]
B
And that's the beautiful relationship between us as children, children of a good Father. And if there's somebody really real on the other end of my conversation, if there's somebody who's really receiving and who then is responding to me, that's a very different dynamic. And I love what you say. I really believe that we have to. We grow from just saying our prayers to becoming Men and women of prayer, that we are men and women of prayer. Like, this is our life versus yeah, I did my thing or I said my prayers or yeah. And then it's so divorced from the rest of our life. Like, that's the integration that Jesus is calling us to. Because when you look at how Jesus lives, he's teaching us how to live. And prayer with his Father is at the heart of his life. And he lives from his relationship. He doesn't get his identity from his mission. We're not trying to get our identity from our mission most of the time, but he's living from his relationship and from that relationship and from that intimacy comes the mission. And he's teaching us how to be human. So we're always taking everything. We're looking at Jesus. And how does Jesus live? Okay, well, then if he's living like this, this is how I want live.
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A
Yeah. And so you mentioned that relationship precedes.
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B
So RIM is the ipf. Yeah, that.
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A
And so. So especially for those who are, like, listening to this, a lot of times it's. So the acronym is R, I M. And so relationship, Identity, Mission. But a lot of times when we're coming before the Lord, we. We come. We base our identity off of our mission.
- [14:57]
B
Yes.
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A
Right. The work I have to do or the role I have in life or the role I have in the church. And that gives. Gives me my identity. Yeah, but what happens when that leaves? And so we leave it backward. We live this backwards. And so what we're called to is that relationship. We are adopted sons and daughters of the Father. That gives us our identity as children of God. And then we can live a mission within. The mission can change, but the relationship always is the source of our identity. Is that for you, when it comes to prayer, is that one of these themes that we are going to hear again and again throughout this pillar of the Catechism?
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B
We are, because the whole reality is rooted in the depths of our heart, which, like it says like we talked about in Catechism in 2563, it's the heart.
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A
Could you read that for us?
- [15:39]
B
Yes. So 2563, which I love, and this is, I think, shocking of Catholics gonna be like, what the church teaches us because we have to speak about the heart. Because, as you know, Scripture is replete with heart language. And Jesus speaks to us about the heart. And so when we talk about the heart, we're not talking about passing sentimentalism or what I'm just feeling strongly. I mean, God gives us emotions. It's A whole other talk. Right on emotions that they're given to us to emote, to be able to choose what is good, true, true and beautiful. But when we're talking about the heart, you're talking about the core. And what happens in our hearts matters, and what doesn't happen in our hearts matters. It's because it's from that reality that everything else flows. And so it says that, you know, the heart is the dwelling place where I am. 2563. The heart is the place to which I withdraw. It's so gorgeous. The heart is our hidden center, beyond the grasp of our reason or of others, so great, only the spirit of God can fathom the human heart and know it fully. The heart is a place of decision, deeper than our psychic drives. It is the place of truth where we choose life or death. It is the place of encounter. And because as image of God, we live in relation. It is a place of covenant. The pillar on prayer is going to unfold from there, because that's, and I love that we start with that because that's not at the end and say, oh, by the way, the disposition of your heart matters. It's saying, oh, no, no, no. This is why Jesus says, you know, from the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks. Wherever your treasure is, there your heart is. And so this, it's the core of us. And what's going on within that sacred place is so important.
- [17:02]
A
Yeah. The heart is the place of encounter. Heart, place of decision. And there's this, the place to which I withdraw, like all of those. And yet how, how tempting is it sometimes to just say our prayers? Yeah, like just how tempting is it sometimes? Just like. No, I'm. So as a priest, make a promise to pray the liturgy of the hours, you know, five times a day and make a promise to one. We want to say Mass every day. We want to offer, you know, want to live a life of prayer. But so often the temptation is in the midst of busyness is you just stay on the surface as opposed to actually withdraw to the heart. And it's one of those. You mentioned that there's all these different ways that we can pray as Catholics. There's different devotions and different tools of prayer, and sometimes we can rely overly on the tool as opposed to allowing the tool to get to our heart as a vehicle to get to our heart. I remember I, I, someone I know pretty well who used to have prayer cards and had a stack of prayer cards and after Mass, would just pray through the prayer cards and at Some point, I remember just thinking and maybe asking, like, so is that your prayer? Like, that was. I'm saying my prayers. I'm just praying the prayers in the back of the prayer cards. And. No, that can be. That can be fine if. If that's. If that's resonating with their heart and is actually the. The tool that helps them get to that place of depth. And that's wonderful. But I think sometimes it can become a trap because it can become the excuse or maybe even like the. I want to say, like the boundary that, okay, God, you can't come past this, because what happens if I put the prayer cards down and I just talk to the Lord? Then am I overly vulnerable in that moment? But again, at the same time, it can be great. I think about us when it comes to the psalms, that. In the psalms, sometimes I'm praying the psalms, and it's like, yes, that's what my heart wanted to say. But sometimes it also can be service. So I guess we could be here or there when it comes to that.
- [18:52]
B
Well, Ben and I appreciate that Catechism talks about vocal prayer, meditative prayer, contemplative prayer, all the different kinds. And so there's a symbiosis of things that are happening there. And I think, yeah, I think all of us, that's why the heart matters. So I think we have to ask, really. And some of us were never taught to pray that way. Some of us as Catholics were taught to pray the rosary. And I love the rosary. I prayed every day myself. But. But, like, that's. So the vocal prayer is like the high point versus, like, the part of the rosary is to lead us into union with Jesus is to become one in his mysteries. And so I think we can always look at our hearts and say, okay, am I using anything in my life, whatever it is, to make sure that I don't have to go deeper and to know that many times the things that we don't want to talk about are the very things Jesus wants to talk to us about. And you're like, oh, Lord, really?
- [19:38]
A
Also, I'm really grateful for you for many reasons, but one is that last thing. I wasn't trying to throw shade or criticize the tools of prayer of, like, prayer cards because you're saying, no, the church will go on in this pillar to talk about. There are many forms of prayer, and they're all. They all can be useful.
- [19:54]
B
Yes.
- [19:55]
A
At the same time, will I ever use any of these forms of prayer as a way to keep God at a distance? Or will I let them be what they're meant to be? Which is they'll give God access. Yes, access to your heart. Why do you think the catechism devotes an entire pillar to prayer?
- [20:17]
B
Because it's everything, like you said it is. Our relationship with Jesus. It's not just what we do, it's who we are. It's helping us grow in union with Jesus. And if that's really what Christianity is about, the Holy Spirit configuring Christ in me, sanctifying me. So he was making Christ present in me. And I look at how Jesus prays, and that's what Jesus does, and that's what I want to do as well. And I read somewhere that actually people say that you should read this about this pillar first, that you should really read the pillar on prayer first, and then from that lens, go back to all the other pillars of the catechism, because that's going to help us understand. Why does the Church teach what it does on catechism or on the sacraments, on the moral life, on the Creed, because it's going to frame everything in that relationship with the Lord. Because, like you said beautifully that love is challenging. And there are things that, as we read this, thank God, I mean, we should always notice in our heart what captivates and what challenges us, because it's telling us two different places of our heart. And so love, love to be excellent and love to be in the school of love, which is a disciple, is. It's purifying and it's challenging. And if we don't have that continued anchor and we can wrestle, like, wrestle all you want. And if we don't have the continued anchor of, like, all right, I may not understand this. This is beyond my comprehension at this time, but I'm going to trust, because God is good, that I'm going to let it purify me to become more excellent and more loving. And so this pillar on prayer, and I know it's easy when you do a series, kind of like the end series has the least amount of listeners. But I hope. I hope people come back around because this is going to be really important. And then take this and listen to the whole thing again. It's going to be really important.
- [21:44]
A
One of the things we did for RCIA is, so I teach RCIA up at the university, and we used to save prayer for the last two nights of the whole course, and it was kind of, oh, by the way, talk to this God you're learning about. And so then what we did is we refashioned it so that every single night we meet for rcia, we have another aspect of prayer. Because it's just one of those situations where it was, if I just am learning facts about God, but I'm not living this relationship and I'm not being taught how to have that relationship, how to pray, then it remains hollow in some ways, and the heart is missing in some ways.
- [22:20]
B
I would say that's very true. And it's one of the beautiful things when you teach children how to pray and you look at things like catechesis of the good shepherd and the children are entering with their heart, the tactile. And they're entering with their heart and they're learning about who Jesus is. And, and you can see them, you know, you can see them just kind of go into themselves and just really ask the, like, Lord Jesus, tell me. And that part of our heart which we don't ever adult out of, we look at Jesus, who's a grown man, who still goes into the inner room to the quiet to pray, into solitude. Not isolation, but into solitude. And all of us need, all of us need solitude with the Lord. Every single person. No matter what you're doing in life, we all need that solitude with the Lord because that's when Jesus reminds us again of who we are and he refreshes that graces of our covenant and brings us us into deeper union.
- [23:03]
A
So solitude is something. You know, I think it's fascinating that in our culture right now we're lacking both solitude and connection.
- [23:12]
B
That's a great point.
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A
Isn't that interesting?
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B
Yes, that's a great point.
- [23:14]
A
So it's, it's rare that I actually am alone with the alone. And it's really rare that I'm ever in real connection with others. And so we find ourselves in this weird middle place where. So true, we're just constantly being distracted but not connected.
- [23:29]
B
Yes, that's so true. And so. And it really does reinforce St. Augustine's words so many years ago that we hear so used, you know, that our hearts are restless until they rest in you. And that's not just a nice thing you see at Hobby Lobby or something, you know, but.
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A
But it is something you see at.
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B
Hobby Lobby, but, you know, you can put that over your mantle right now. But. But it is true, because how many. I mean, you know, we're. We're just people, Father. Like all this experience, like the restlessness of our heart, and we're trying to like. And we know, like, we know, but the theology of our heart you know, it's like, what am I looking for to satisfy me? Something other than God? Or what am I afraid of? What am I afraid of to spend 15 minutes alone by myself? Those are so many stories. And the Lord would love to reveal his heart for us.
- [24:06]
A
Well, that's the thing is you've been ministering with so many people and imagine that all of us, we struggle with prayer. There's obstacles to prayer. So what do you think are some of the principal obstacles to prayer for just most people?
- [24:20]
B
I think a lot of people labor under the illusion that prayer is really not for them, that holiness is not for them. Like, oh, it's for you and me, but like, you know, whatever. You're a mom of four kids or you're a businessman or. Yeah, I go to mass on Sunday and I give my money collection to the church, and I don't really need to. As if we'll just let those people dedicate it to religion. And so most people don't know the universal call to holiness, first and foremost, of the covenant that God made with us in our baptism that marks us forever as children and sets us in a relationship. So I think there's.
- [24:49]
A
That there's so disqualify themselves in some ways, or don't even think of them, that God even wants that. That God even wants time with them. Or. I remember Father Thomas Dube, you know, he has some incredible books, but one he was. He was asked about, he said, well, I'm a mom or I'm a dad, and I just don't have time to pray. And so what do I do? And his response was kind of sassy. And he said something like, oh, it sounds no problem. You can be a mediocre moment. You can be a mediocre dad if you want, or you can take time and pray. Obviously, if you're in different seasons in your life, you don't have the opportunity necessarily go to the Adoration chapel five hours a day or even one. But that sense of. But if you're going to be the person God wants you to be, we have to pray at some point regularly. So the first thing is disqualification. What are some of the other obstacles people are going to be facing?
- [25:38]
B
Well, I think experiencing what it seems like a lack of time or even not even not knowing how. Like, I don't even. So many people don't. Many times it's not taught, unfortunately, in our faith tradition of how do you pray? Like, here's how you pray. I think honestly, underneath it, there's just a lot of areas of shame, even of like, man, if I really expose this part of my heart, God's not going to love me. Or the pain that we experienced are sorrowful mysteries that have yet to be brought into communion with Jesus. And so there's a lot of reasons why we'll find. And there are married times. Very noble. Like all these excuses why.
- [26:09]
A
Other things to do.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah. So I'm so glad you said that. I would have completely missed this because it would have been like, oh, you know, time and I'm busy and it's not a priority kind of situation. But you're getting to the overuse the word. We've been overusing of the heart to get to the core of this whole thing is I don't know if I want to get that close to the Lord. Not because I don't love him, but because I'm a. I'm. I have shame.
- [26:35]
B
Yeah.
- [26:36]
A
I don't. I don't know if. Just like, here's Adam and Eve in the garden. I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.
- [26:41]
B
Amen.
- [26:42]
A
I don't want you to see me.
- [26:43]
B
Amen.
- [26:43]
A
And so, again, these other excuses are just manifestations of a deeper reality.
- [26:50]
B
Yeah.
- [26:51]
A
So if this is where a lot of us are going to be as we hopefully either continue or begin a life of prayer, what would you say? It's just. Okay, if that's one of the wounds, we're gonna. That's gonna give us a thousand things to do other than pray. How do. What do I do with that shame?
- [27:06]
B
Well, one of the things that we can practically do as we walk through these days together is to be able to name what's happening in our heart and bring it to the objective truth. So we're in our lives. We're bringing our subjective experience into the objective reality of God. So say, for example, like we talked about, even the quote from the catechism of that God knows my heart fully and it says he reveals me to myself. And I don't. So maybe it's like this area where we experience a deep unworthiness or deep inferiority. And we might not know where that comes from yet. But, like, Lord, I feel like I'm not even worth praying. Like, you wouldn't listen to me. And even those words are telling us deep stories about ourselves. But I'm reading here, this is what the church teaches, that you actually revealed me to myself. So I'm going to start taking. I'm going to start taking those things out and letting God speak to them and we talk about. I'm sure, you know, we talk about the sacraments as Catholics. There's nothing that replaces a good holy sacramental confession of standing, of the objective reality of, like, you know what? The Lord forgave me for this, and so I can, with the Lord, go to the deeper places of pain. But. But it's, you know, Mr. Rogers, like the beautiful lane in the neighborhood. You know, he would often say that if it's mentionable, it's manageable. And so much of our life is not mentioned. And so from that, when we can't even name it, there's something about naming how God creates and he names that, Adam names naming what we're afraid of, naming the pain in our life. Naming it allows it. It takes a lot of the darkness out of it and allows the Lord to come in with his light. So, you know, the Lord is not surprised. He's not embarrassed of it. I think that's one of the most surprising things. Lord is not afraid of us. He's not embarrassed. And anything we're gonna find out these days as we walk through prayer, Jesus already knows that, and he's already with us. And that's so beautiful.
- [28:42]
A
Yeah, that's the thing is, like, you know, I often encourage our students to go to confession. And in that confession, I'm like, you're not telling God something he doesn't know.
- [28:49]
B
Yes.
- [28:50]
A
But you're giving him access to something he doesn't have. Like, you know, the depths of your heart, that sense of just being able to say, like, you said, he knows all this. And yet, go back to the first point we made. You made this entire day is. And he's the one who initiates, so he knows your heart already, and he wants your heart. You know, it's so strange. I've used this example and told this many times. When we go to Israel, one of the things we'll do at Cana is we'll have renewal of vows. And so I get to do a lot of weddings because I'm on college campus, and on their wedding day, they're just gazing in each other's eyes, and it's awesome. Like, I take you as my wife. I take you as my husband. And it's amazing. And oftentimes when people are renewing their vows at Cana or wherever, they. They don't look each other. They can't look each other in the eye. And there's that sense of, like, before, when I gave you this, when I made this promise, like, I hadn't failed yet, but now here we are, 10 years later, 20 years later, however long later, and I'm looking you in the eye, and you know that I. Maybe I'm, you know, maybe, you know, I mean this, but you also know that I'm going to fail. And, you know, I have failed. And so there's not the same kind of maybe naive confidence in one's ability and. Yeah, but on the other hand, mentioning shame. And so there's, you know, averting gaze. But there are some couples that I have, because I've mentioned this a couple times, who, man, they're locked on each other. And there's one couple in particular, they actually came to the university and they said, could you renew our wedding vows? I'm like, you'll renew your wedding vows. I'll do the prayer.
- [30:17]
B
But.
- [30:19]
A
I had never seen a couple like this. They were gazing very deeply. They were like, intensely present to each other as they renewed, doing these vows. And afterwards we talked. And there had been not just infidelity, there not only had been brokenness and addiction, all these things. That's the shame part. There had been such great. You mentioned, if you can mention it, you can manage it. There had been such a confession to each other and reconciliation that they had lived the brokenness part. They had lived the shame part, but they also lived the bringing that to light and to see the. The love and respect, affection they had for each other and confidence, not again, not in themselves. They knew the brokenness, but it was this renewed confidence that was even deeper than their wedding day, you know, so they had lived through the shame, but they had didn't hide the shame. And maybe that's part of how our prayer has to be like when we bring it to the Lord in confession.
- [31:10]
B
Yeah.
- [31:11]
A
Hey, God, you know this. We've named it, you've dealt with it, and now there's some new way that we get to pray. Because I'm not deceived anymore into thinking that I'll be your perfect whatever.
- [31:25]
B
I don't know. Oh, gosh, Father, I think everything you said there, that's the entire pillar on prayer, everything you just said of the gift of self. But also, as the years grow, it grows in maturity. And the repair, like the rupture, the repair, the fidelity. I promise you, that's what a covenant as you know, covenant language is the language of I am yours and you are mine forever. And that's why we love marriage like it's the icon. You know, John Paul II talks about the icon of how God loves us. But everything you just Said like, that's the battle of prayer. That's the obstacle of prayer. That's the Lord who's still faithful. That is the Lord who still invites our gaze, who never averts his gaze from us, who is there over and over and over again. And that's. You talk about the spiritual masters, you know, like John of the Cross, Trues of Avila. You look at people in our age who are just like Father Jacques Philippe, people that are. Teach on prayer, Father Boniface Hicks, people that teach on prayer. Father Garagul Lagrange. Like, you look at all of the. Like the generations that we have of these people, and all of them talk about, you know, coming to the end of our own strength. Like, that's Peter and the Gospels. That's the charcoal fire. That's. That's the human. That's the stuff of real human life. Yeah, this is the stuff of real human life. And. And that's what we ache for. We ache. We ache to epic, like to. In our epic failures that someone would still love us and still believe in us and just say, I know you. Like, I know I know you, and I love you. I mean, all of us want to love heroically, and we want to be heroically loved. And. And that's the life that Christ. This is what the pillar of prayer is all about, is to enter. That's the salvation history. Like, that's the whole gospel summed up in our own hearts.
- [32:53]
A
Well, that's amazing. Just even as you say this, in some ways, the maturity starts when we come to the end of our own strength. This is pretty remarkable to me that just as a reminder, again, we've been doing this for over 300 days. Something that's remarkable is the church has never condescended in her teaching here from pillar one through to pillar four. What I mean by that is the church isn't talking down to us. The church isn't saying, well, well, I know you're just baby beginners in this whole thing, and so we're going to treat you like it. Even in the section on prayer, it's that sense of like, no, actually, you're made for the heights.
- [33:27]
B
Yes.
- [33:28]
A
And this is going to. This is where you're called. And it speaks so beautifully. Right. And it speaks so it's accessible. There's something about how the church isn't pulling any punches, for lack of a better term. I'm not sure what the best phrase is. I agree with you, but there's that sense of a proposition of we might not even realize how to the heights that God is calling us in, depths of relationship that he's calling us to. But the catechism here is just making it clear. If I could just ask you. So the catechism will say some things at the beginning here of this section that will talk about how prayer is more and more understood the more and more God reveals himself. But there's a section that says, in the fullness of time, Jesus reveals what prayer can be, because we get to see him in his prayer. So if you don't mind, what are some of the things we look for? What are some of the things Jesus teaches us when he. When he's praying?
- [34:28]
B
Well, he's teaching us about what it means to be the beloved child of God, that Jesus is at all times the same person because of his identity of who he is. So Jesus is the same when they're hailing him, when they want to make him king, as when they're crucifying him, when they're spitting on him, when his own disciples fail him, like he's the same person. So he's teaching us what does it really tangibly look like to be fully human because he's the man who's fully alive. And what does it mean to live in continual relationship with the Father? And we're seeing it in Him. And humanity has never seen that before. We've never seen that revelation. And so when we, you know, he teaches us the. Our Father, he's. Christ never wastes words. And so he's teaching us the essentials of this relation. So Christ is always teaching us about relationships. So that. So it's only from there that he says, you know, go and do, you know, do what I have done. Love is. Love one another as I have loved you. Like, how do we do that? Well, we experience first by allowing ourselves to be loved by Him. And that's. And that really is a school of love. And I think we were talking about before we started refilming, like, this doesn't end. Like there's no end. You're Perfect Now, Catechism 3000, and you're done. And that's the continual refinement, that's the excellence of love, that we're taking this and we're continuing to grow, and that goes into eternal life with Him. But in that, we're seeing in Christ the literal incarnation of the belovedness, the beloved Son, the beloved daughter of God. And not only is he just like this, something we're looking up to. He's actually giving us the grace, grace to live, to forgive to love, to suffer, to live in joy, to live in the truth. And you just see the freedom. I don't know about you for the moment. I just one day in my life to be as free to love Jesus the way that he loves, to be that free where you're not caught up in your own ego or your own self defense mechanisms or the places where we have to make sure everybody knows we're right because we're important. It's like, he's so lovely. I just. How could you resist him? He's just so beautiful.
- [36:20]
A
So, yeah, well, there's. How much, how much of our lives are spent with image management and just that impression management of the situation. Even when it comes to the Lord, how many people that I'll speak with who are like, prayer's really empty, it's really shallow, it's really dry. And just kind of do some digging and say, oh, a lot of times part of it is mention shame, but another part of it is, well, I'm upset with the Lord, but I'm not talking to him about it, or I'm.
- [36:46]
B
Really going through a struggle and I'm.
- [36:48]
A
Not going to give him access to it, or I'm experiencing some kind of battle, but I'm not going to invite him into it. And it's like, well, of course your prayer is dry. Of course there's this sense of like, it's shallow because it is shallow because you have this whole world that you're not letting him have access to as opposed to again, what's revealed to us. I love how you said, jesus, he's always the same. He's always a beloved son, like you said, on top of the world. And at his worst moment, he shows us what it is to be a beloved child of the Father when everyone's left you and when all your hopes and dreams have fallen, when everyone's betrayed you. And also what it's like to be a beloved child of the Father when it seems like everyone loves you. Yes, he's just the same.
- [37:33]
B
And I appreciate what you were saying earlier, Father Micah, how the church doesn't talk down to us. Or I mean, thank God the church isn't like, well, you're just going to be mediocre. I guess I'm so grateful that. But it's a high standard. Love is a high standard. And Jesus, you know, he's teaching us as the bridegroom, as he gives his life on the cross for the bride. Like the man, this man of joy, who's like, it's worth it. Like, he's not like a helpless victim in that regard. Like he's giving himself as a man, as the bridegroom, to restore the church as the new Adam. And he looks at us and he says, it's worth it. It's worth it. And that kind of love. Oh, that kind of love can't help but change us. We're like, all right, okay, so we just start again. We just always start again.
- [38:12]
A
There's this saying, that Venerable Bruno Lanteri. He's venerable. His name is Bruno Lanteri. He's a priest. And he had said something along the lines of, if I should fall a thousand times a day, a thousand times a day, I will begin again. I'll trust in the Lord's mercy and begin again. So there's this phrase in Latin, nunczepi, which means now I begin.
- [38:34]
B
That's a good one.
- [38:36]
A
We built a camp this last summer around this theme development. Now I begin. Now I begin. Just that sense of, like, when it comes to life of virtue, it comes. Life of prayer is now I begin. Why? Because God's mercies are without end. And so here I am with my brokenness, with my shame, when I run to run, run to the end of my own strength to be able to say, okay, Lord, now I just beginning. I pick it up again. And let him pick you up again. Just give him permission to love. If I were to say what or ask you, what is your favorite section here on pillar four? Are there any kind of elements. You mentioned paragraph 2563, with the heart. Are there any other sections or any other parts of this pillar that you'd say, this is just something that speaks to my heart. Is this something that I wish everyone knew? Or, I mean, a lot of it. Obviously, every paragraph is great, including the nuggets. But, like, what would you say?
- [39:32]
B
I would say the section on contemplative prayer. Oh, yeah, on contemplation. And I love that this talks about the most deepest, like the prayer contemplation. So 2709. What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa of Avila answers us. Contemplative prayer, in my opinion, is nothing else than a close sharing between friends. It means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us. Us. Contemplative prayer seeks him whom my soul loves. It is Jesus in him and the Father. We seek him because we desire him. Is always the beginning of love that deep. Later on he'll say, contemplation is the gaze of faith. It is Christ bringing us into Himself to me, like, that's the deep. That's the wine cellar. And I. That's a gift that God. Prayer is always a gift. And I think we can talk about that if this. Like we said, it's not me manifesting something or trying to conjure up something, but prayer is always a gift. And I think we can always go to Jesus and say, lord, just give me the gift of prayer. Like, holy Spirit, teach me how to pray every day. It doesn't matter. We don't know what we don't know. So, like, Holy Spirit, come. But that gift of contemplation, of alone in the quiet with the Lord, where He speaks heart to heart to us, where he. I really do believe, Father Mike, that Jesus whispers secrets there that he doesn't share with anybody else. It's just like there's a place that's reserved for just you and the Lord, that even if you're married, that it's a place just for you and the Lord, where that's sacred. And. And the Lord delights in us and he speaks to us. And that, to me, is like my favorite place. I love that part.
- [40:58]
A
Well, even as you say this contemplative prayer is to be able to pray for that, even. Yes, to pray for that gift. I think it may have been Saint Teresa of Avila who had said that if you're praying, you're doing your vocal prayers, you're doing your readings, and at some point, if God brings you to a place of contemporary prayer, put the vocal prayer to the side and just receive it as a gift. But so often, and it's like, well, no, I got to get to my prayers. And even I don't know if I desire this. Remember the fear of solitude, the fear of shame. But as you noted in 2709 is we seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love. It's just that to desire him is the beginning of love. So one of the things I remember being taught this at one point, it was, pray as you can, not as you can't. And I don't know whose principle it was, but it was like, okay, if I. I should desire contemplative prayer. I don't know if I want to. Okay, well, then pray to want.
- [41:56]
B
Amen.
- [41:57]
A
Contemplative prayer. But yeah, but I don't know if I want to want it. I don't know if I want. Okay, then pray to want to want contemplative prayer. And I don't even know if I want. Whatever. Pray as you can not as you can so pray to want to want to want, you know, and that sense of just wherever you're at, let that be known by the. I mean, he already knows it, but give him access. Right. That sense of, like, here's what I've got going on. So I love this. We seek him because to desire him is always the beginning of love. Man.
- [42:27]
B
It's incredibly, incredibly beautiful. And it goes on in 2714. It says the Christian or contemplative prayer is also the preeminently and intense time of prayer. In it, the Father strengthens. This is St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians. The Father strengthens our inner being through power with his Holy Spirit, that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith, that we may be grounded in love. And so the more we allow that truth of the Lord, the love of the Lord to come and to root us and ground us, that's where, like we said, the core of our being, that's where everything else comes from. And I think that looks different. I know one of my dear friends said that she actually heard prayer life change. When she was up at. Late at night with her newborn infant. And she couldn't go to the chapel anymore. She couldn't. And she was overwhelmed. And she would just sit up at night rocking her baby. And it was that. It was in those quiet nights and as her baby cried or slept that she would start to cry out to the Lord. And she said, had that not, she would have told you, like, I'm not even praying. But she's like, I realize now that it was at that time the Lord began to put intercessory prayer in my heart or this cry, like as her child's crying out. It's like her crying to the Lord. And I just think of how gracious the Lord is in the different seasons of life and our vocations to continue to draw us in that way. And so it's the continual drawing of the Lord who delights to be with us.
- [43:37]
A
Yeah. As you were saying that. It's funny because I was imagining. Here's this mom who also is contemplating her child.
- [43:46]
B
Yes.
- [43:46]
A
Right. And in some ways, there's. When it comes to. She moved on to intercessory prayer and realizing. But there's something interesting, that intercessory prayer we know is efficacious. Right. Praying petition prayer, petitions efficacious does something, but contemplation doesn't do anything.
- [44:01]
B
Amen. Yeah.
- [44:02]
A
And it's just. It's so. I think for a lot of us where it's like, well, I'm like, I have to preach a lot and you get to teach a lot. That sense of like, okay, okay, Lord, I'm in prayer because I gotta get. Give me something to say. Oh, my gosh. The contemplation is just gazing at your baby.
- [44:16]
B
Yeah.
- [44:16]
A
I just like holding this child and doesn't. You're not doing anything in this moment. The child's not being fed. It's not being. What. It's just. You're just this. As it says, 2715, contemplation is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus. As the quote from St. John Vianney. I look at him and he looks at me and just. Yeah, it doesn't do anything. It's not useful. And so again, another reason not to do it, as opposed to if my identity comes by this relationship, then this is the reason to be here. I don't know.
- [44:48]
B
Something like that. Oh, that's stunning. And I agree with you. And I think sometimes in our utilitarian culture, that's one of the things of, like, I gotta do stuff. Like, I don't have time to pray. I gotta do stuff. And we do. We all have things to do. But if it's not flowing from our being, we're gonna inevitably, like we said, either gonna suffer from burnout. Try to drive our identity from that. And so Jesus continues to. Like, he's teaching his disciples, like, we see how he loves. He's teaching them how to have our loves properly ordered, how to have our life ordered around with the one thing that matters. Because like we were saying earlier, like, my friend, even she's a better wife because of that time. She's a better wife because of that encounter. She's a better mom. She's a better sister to her sisters. And who really, I mean, who doesn't need to gaze upon the face of Jesus like, ah, no, that's all right.
- [45:33]
A
That's your favorite section. My favorite section is the next page.
- [45:36]
B
Okay.
- [45:37]
A
It's Article 2 of the Battle of prayer is probably whenever I'm teaching anyone, trying to teach them on prayer. This is one of the first places. Not the first place, because I think before that, we have to know the heart of the Father. Before that, we have to know I can trust God with my shame. I can trust God my brokenness. I trust that he actually loves me enough that he. I mean, how about. How crazy is this? God wants to spend time with him. With us. We have the. The command. We have to go to mass on Sunday. So here Is this precept of the church have to go to mass on Sunday. And so I go to mass because I'm supposed to, but I don't know if we've ever thought it matters to God whether I'm there or not. Meaning it matters to God whether or not I show up and worship Him. Like, why would that matter to. Why would the infinite, the all powerful, the eternal God? Why would my showing up and worshiping him for an hour matter at all to him? Because why? No one else cares. And yet here is God who's like, no, actually it matters when you show up. And so when I know that heart of the Father, then it's like, okay. So I mean, actually that's one of the arguments a lot of atheists will say, like, oh, really? So it matters to God whether or not you act this way or that way. And apparently he loves us enough that it does. So when I know that identity, then that's the next section, Battle of prayer. Because this line in 2725 is just. It's so good. So prayer is both a gift of grace. Remember, it's so God initiates. And a determined response on our part. The next sentence is the one that just like, oh. Because it answers so many questions for me, the next sentence says it always presupposes effort. And so for me, because I remember trying to pray as a high schooler and as a college student and then beyond. And I'm like, I. I'm reading all these stories of saints and it sounds like it's really easy. It sounds like they show up. And I always describe it like this. They would go, you know, stories of saints who would go before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. And, you know, hours would feel like minutes, and I would show up and minutes would feel like hours. And I'm like, what am I doing wrong here? And then to come across this and to hear, oh, no, prayer always presupposes effort. You're not doing something wrong. If sometimes it's hard. And I just. But it's a gift of grace, but it's also a determined response on our part. And it's again, the battle of prayer is one of my favorite sections, because then we're invited to not back away from that, but to realize that even Jesus reveals to us that prayer is a battle, which I'm so grateful for.
- [47:59]
B
I appreciate that's in the catechism.
- [48:01]
A
Yeah.
- [48:01]
B
So for all the places we might feel ashamed that we're struggling, or maybe we don't want to pray, or maybe it's dry. Or maybe it's just wonderful for all those places. The catch is like, well, here you go. Here's the human heart. And that's okay. We can understand that and that we're going to keep going. It's not a bad thing. I think we have sometimes a misunderstanding. Like, if it's hard, that means I'm doing something wrong. And not necessarily, I mean, love is different. Like we said, love is very purifying and it's calling us a deeper excellence and deeper union. And I appreciate that a lot because that is kind of people get to a plateau or they get to a major struggle or they find a block in their heart or something and then it's like, oh, I don't want to do that anymore. I tried that didn't really work for me. And the Lord's like, no, you keep going, you keep seeking. Yeah, it's just wonderful.
- [48:43]
A
And the reality, of course, is that if we don't like, if we don't go through those times of dryness. This section talks about distraction and dryness and all these different battles we experience. If we don't experience that dryness or distraction, our heart can't grow.
- [48:56]
B
Amen.
- [48:56]
A
Like that. My love remains selfish. And God doesn't want us. He wants us to have, you know, like the Grinch, a heart that grows. I love it.
- [49:05]
B
Yes.
- [49:05]
A
Two sizes too big. And that tooth size is too small. And if I'm just loving the gifts of prayer, the consolations of prayer, then I'm just loving myself.
- [49:13]
B
Oh, that's such a good word.
- [49:14]
A
But if God teaches me, brings me through these distractions and through this dryness, to continue to choose him in the midst of desolation.
- [49:24]
B
Yes.
- [49:25]
A
And he's doing something remarkable in our hearts that, that I, I, I would imagine he couldn't do without because we're free. And so I'll keep loving myself as long as, as long as I can until I can't anymore. And which is God has to grow my heart.
- [49:40]
B
Oh, yes. And, and thank God for that. Like that couple, the marriage example that you gave. That's exactly the place of, of the struggles, of the trials. And when it gets difficult, you know, do we, do we love God for what he gives us? Do we give. We love the gifts or do we love the giver? And that, that's, it's one thing to receive the gifts and be in awe in gratitude of that and receive all that God gives us. And in that, not mistake the gifts for the giver because the giver is most Important.
- [50:04]
A
Yeah. Because that would be making an idol out of the gifts.
- [50:07]
B
Yeah, he's like a genie. Like, I come to God. God can't be manipulated like that. And nobody likes to be treated like. I mean, but it's amazing how we can kind of fall into that mentality too, of like, oh, I did the thing. Like, I prayed that novena, or I, God, give me what I want. And the Lord's like, I have so much more for you.
- [50:23]
A
Well, can you say something about that? How sometimes our prayer can devolve into manipulation or an attempt to manipulate God. If I do it like this, then.
- [50:33]
B
I think sometimes our prayer can be superstitious of. I did that. And it's more of a contractual exchange of like, I did that thing. And sometimes it comes out of deep suffering, like, my child's dying and I'll do the Nilvena, the saint, whatever you tell me. But the Lord always brings us back to the heart. And I think we have to be very. I just think we have to be very careful, we always do, about the. The images we have of God.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah.
- [50:57]
B
So that means I did this. That he should give me what I want. Or, you know, because we're so little, we don't all. Yeah. We don't always know what we need. So I think that's the continual. And. And the. And I love the psalms and I love the cry of Jesus, like, lament. It's like, it's the real part of the real heart of, like, Lord. And maybe that is like, lord, I did the thing. I went to mass. I. I prayed the rosary. I. I didn't, you know, live with my boyfriend before I got married. I did all that thing, and we're still infertile. So, like, what's. You know. And you can just feel like the. Oh, like the human heart there in Christ is like, I. I want to draw near to you. I love you. I want to. I'm not holding out. I just. Those are the tender places. And I think that's. That's the prayer. Right. That. And that's who. That's the tender stuff. Right. Of. But that's the. That's the. Yeah, those are the real. Those are the real parts of the human heart that the Lord reveals himself in and that he's not holding out. Jesus is not holding out on us.
- [51:45]
A
Well, as you. As you mentioned, it reveals the image of God we have.
- [51:49]
B
Yes.
- [51:49]
A
And so actually, paragraph 2735, and following Ask the question, it says, why do we complain of not being heard? And then the Response is, I think, really bold. And I want to say something about this. It says, in the first place, we ought to be astonished by this fact when we praise God or give him thanks for his benefits. In general, we're not particularly concerned whether or not our prayer is acceptable to him. And whenever I highlight this to our students, they're like, yeah, because when you thank God, you're like, oh, by the way, thanks God. You know, but if I need something, man, I'm kneeling down, the hands are folded just the right way, and I'm saying exactly the words because there's something of. This really, really matters. But wait, when I'm giving God praise or thanks, do I care that he receives it? Does it even matter to me that he receives it? So goes on to say, he goes. On the other hand, we demand to see the results of our petitions. What is the image of God? This is what you said. What is the image of God that motivates our prayer? Is he an instrument to be used? Or is he the father of our Lord Jesus Christ? And that's why Jesus reveals. Right? He's always the same, like you said.
- [52:53]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Isn't that convicting, like, for all myself included? I'm like, oh, geez. Yeah, I love it.
- [52:58]
A
The thing with me is I need to hear this in a time of peace so that I don't forget it in the time of distress. If I were to hear this in a time of distress, I would think that someone was making fun of. Of me.
- [53:07]
B
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.
- [53:09]
A
And so that's. I think that's important for us, especially those who are listening, because they go in the first. We should be astonished by this fact that you're suffering right now. Like, no, no, no, that's not the. That's not the issue. I need to hear this in a time where I remember who God is. Because if I was in a place of just desperation, this would seem like I was being dismissed. Yeah, but that's not what I think. That's not the heart. The heart is just calling us back to remember. What is your image? Is your image? God is the atmosphere. Or he's the emergency paramedic or the emergency psychologist, Whoever. Or is he our Father who actually loves us? The guy who wrote this. So the guy, whatever. Apparently the chief author of this Pillar of the Catechism. Do you know that story?
- [53:50]
B
Tell me.
- [53:50]
A
He wrote this Fourth Pillar in Beirut. He's a priest who wrote this Fourth Pillar in Beirut while the bombs were raining on his home and he's in the basement with the typewriter and, like a candle. And he was writing this section on prayer while he. While his life was in danger for days and weeks on end. And it's in that. It's kind of like Psalm 3, this Psalm of David. It's a psalm of trust. Like the subtitle of Psalm 3 is a Psalm of David, a psalm of trust, when he was fleeing for his life from Absalom. And so you hear that and you realize, oh, wait, this is not David on his throne. Like, life is good and I trust God. This is David, who everything's falling around him in his own child is trying to kill him. And he is on his fleeing for his life, and he's saying, trust God. And so similarly, here is this priest who in the next moment a bomb could land right on top of his house. And he's saying, this is my identity. This is the most important thing any of us could do, which is develop this relationship with our Lord. We can trust Him.
- [54:49]
B
Amen.
- [54:50]
A
So, sister, as we're coming to a close, there's more we can talk about. We can talk about the fact that there's. The Lord's Prayer is the section two, the last piece of the. This fourth pillar is on the Lord's Prayer. Kind of an explication of. Of all the things that Jesus is teaching us to pray. But if there's any takeaways, as we conclude today, that you just want the people who are. Are listening and are going to press play for the next however many days. What is something that you hope. Yeah, hope. Hope they get in these next 30, 40 days.
- [55:20]
B
I guess my heart for the people on this journey with us would be to come to a deeper understanding in their heart of how deeply we are loved, how deeply, deeply we are loved, and how of infinite value that the Lord perceives us and receives us in that we're not alone. We're not alone. And this is not some joke or cosmic kind of game God's playing with us, that he really just the deep heart of Jesus, that He takes on every single one of our sufferings, all of our joys, and he unites them to Himself and that he gives us back Himself in return. And we know who loves like that. I just. Yeah, I'm just continually just pierced by the love of Jesus. And my heart is that we come not into a formulaic kind of, you know, reiteration of some sort of prayer, but each one of us in our own way, comes into a deeper intimacy with Jesus because that's the truth and that's the eternal truth. And that's what we're going to spend heaven with, is the one who loves us forever, for all eternity. So I guess that would be a real heartfelt encounter as they go.
- [56:27]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that sense. I'm really grateful you're saying that because one of the things that I've been, I've been convicted of or I've been sitting with and maybe trying to say is the more and more Christians or Catholics I talk with, they've heard their entire lives that God loves them. But I think most Catholics, we don't believe God loves us, we believe God tolerates us.
- [56:50]
B
It's true, friend. Yeah.
- [56:51]
A
And so then. And what you're saying is hope not just ending with these next 30 to 40 days, but beginning with these 30 to 40 days of knowing the unstoppable love of God for them and just even a willingness to give God permission to love you.
- [57:06]
B
Yes.
- [57:07]
A
Would be the prayer. Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [57:11]
B
Thank you.
- [57:11]
A
Thanks for joining us. I am so grateful and hopeful that I hope that this has been as much a blessing for those who have been listening to this as it has been for me. Because I'm so grateful, Sister, to be with you and just be able to just even kind of touch the surface. We just scraped the surface of this, this fourth pillar. But I'm so grateful for you and so grateful for every person who has been joining us for these 328 days. Please know that I'm praying for you. Please pray for me. My name is Father Mike. I cannot wait to see you tomorrow. God bless.