← The CBMW Podcast
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- [00:05]
A
Greetings and welcome into the CBMW podcast, your weekly speech therapy session to help you biblically process the world of anthropological confusion. I am Jonathan Swan, the executive editor of Icon, and I am joined by my president, Denny Burke, and executive director, Colin Smothers. Denny is once again, he has his coat and his tie on to show us up. He says it's because it's a workday for him. I think that's an excuse.
- [00:34]
B
You know what? There is a great disparity between the way I'm dressed and the way you two are dressed. I think it means we need a tire alignment.
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A
Oh, wow.
- [00:45]
C
Okay. Attire alert.
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A
Dad, joke alert.
- [00:50]
B
Tire almost right on the spot. I came up with that. I got up points.
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A
That is impressive.
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B
That was a major groaner, which makes it all the more entertaining for me
- [01:03]
A
and only for you. All right, so we want to turn to a headline today from England where the Anglican glass ceiling has finally been shattered. Just a few weeks ago, the Anglican Church officially installed its very first female Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Mullally. Sarah is the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury in the 1400 year history of this highest ranking office in the Anglican Church, but again, the first ever to be female. It comes with some mixed reaction, brothers. How should we think about this decision and now its implementation in the Anglican Church?
- [01:47]
B
Well, let me suggest two different angles here for us to talk about. I think the first angle is just the fact that you've got a female serving in a pastoral role. So that's number one angle. The second angle is how do you come to that conclusion that it's okay for a female to serve in a pastoral role? Well, the way you get there is by going away from what the Bible says about these things. And what are the implications of that in the Church of England and across the Anglican Communion in the world. So those are kind of the two angles I'm thinking of. And probably the most, you know, for, for us, the most obvious thing is just what does the Bible say about women serving in pastoral roles? This clearly, you know, goes against that. You know, I listened to an interview with Sarah Mullally with the BBC that they recorded right before the ceremony where she was installed as the Archbishop of Canterbury. And, you know, it was really remarkable. But one of the things she said at the very beginning of it when they're asking her what her vision was for her job was she says, I'm going to shepherd. I'm going to be a shepherd to all the people within the Anglican Communion. And, well, excuse me, within the Church of England. So she intends to be a shepherd. And yet it's that precise role that the Bible says is not available to women. 1 Timothy 2:12. Obviously, we all know it, it's a much disputed verse since the middle of the 20th century, but it says, I don't allow a woman. The Apostle Paul says, I don't allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. And right after that, Paul says in 1 Timothy 3, if anybody desires to be a bishop, he desires a noble thing. And it says, if any man is the husband of one wife. Right. And so Paul is assuming that the office of bishop, which is sometimes translated as overseer. Of course, we have a different ecclesiology than, you know, three of us are Baptists, they're Anglican, but we're talking about the same word there. Right. So the office of overseer is limited to men who are qualified by Scripture, have certain character qualifications. That doesn't even seem to be on the radar screen of anybody's major concern in the Church of England at this point. In fact, I think even some of the more conservative parishes have kind of not all of them. Okay, it's still a bit of a dispute, but even some of the more conservative of parishes are kind of reconciling themselves to this, that they're just going to accept it and that they're going to install women into these positions that the Bible says they are not authorized to be in, which is a direct affront to biblical authority.
- [04:45]
A
Colin, you have often referenced C.S. lewis's essay on priestesses in the church. How is what's going on sort of a manifestation of things that he was seeing so long ago in terms of the historical nature of it happening, but also theologically.
- [05:04]
C
Yeah. In preparation for this conversation, that's one of the things I did. I pulled up that essay. It's remarkable. He wrote that essay in 1948. So you think about that. You know, that was 80 years ago. So back then, you know, 1948, he was an Anglican. So in the Church of England, they were having a conversation around should we ordain women to the priesthood? And he opposed it publicly in this essay, priestesses in the Church. I would encourage everybody to go read that essay. You know, you can find it online. And he has a logical argument against it. And one of the logical arguments against it is obviously, you know, God's word forbids it. But part of the implications of putting into a pastoral role a woman that, you know, this role explicitly limited to qualified men by Scripture, what does that do to our conception of who God is, what does that do to our conception of what the church is? And he has some really good reflections on, you know, if you start to interchange men and women in the role of the pastorate, what, you know, how much longer will you start interchanging how we talk about God himself as father? You know, if we can pray to our heavenly Father, why can't we pray to our heavenly mother if men and women are interchangeable? And he has lots of good reflections on that. But what I want to highlight is how long this conversation has been happening. So again, 1948, it took a long time for the Anglican Church to finally ordain a woman into the priesthood against, you know, C.S. lewis's best wishes there, against a lot of conservatives in the church. And originally the way it was billed for Anglicans to accept it was, well, you know, originally they were ordained into the role of deacon, which is an ordained role in the Anglican Church. And then the progress was, okay, well, we'll put them in the role of priest but not bishop. Like that was the original thing that happened. And then, you know, a few years go by, if a woman can be a priest, why can't she be the bishop? And of course now, you know, this is the culmination of that sort of slow roll for 80 years. You know, it happened really slowly. And then all of a sudden now we have a woman ordained, installed in the office of Archbishop of Canterbury, which is the highest office in the land. And I think there's a lot of problems with Sarah Mullally and her installation. Fundamentally, she's a woman in a role that's reserved for qualified men. But you look at her theological positions and I think what we see, Lewis warning against all of the implications of changing theology in this one spot. She's like a case study for what that is. She is vocally pro lgbt. So she was one of the ones advocating for introducing a ceremony for blessing same sex unions in the Anglican Church. She is pro choice. She said on record, I'm personally pro life, but I'm pro choice for other folks. So in other words, as the Archbishop of Canterbury, she's going to be advocating for public policy from a pro choice.
- [08:17]
B
She's a member of the House of
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C
Lords and as a member of the House of Lords, this means she's a legislature there in England and she has position of power and she's going to be using that position of power for pro choice ends. We could continue to list off all of the theological problems, but the point is often this issue of Complementarianism versus egalitarianism, reserving the role. The office of pastorate for qualified men is the canary in the coal mine for several other theological heterodoxies. And again, she is a walking test case for that reality.
- [08:52]
B
Colin, did you say that this whole process in the Church of England started with women being ordained as deacons?
- [09:01]
C
Yes, it did.
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B
And then it went to. The debate went towards the priesthood, and then the debate went towards.
- [09:06]
C
Exactly. In fact, I pulled up a Wikipedia page and you can see each particular communion, you know, there in Australia or across the world in Africa, England, etc. And you notice you can watch the dominoes fall through the years. So originally, kind of through the 70s, 80s, 90s, it was the diaconate first and then kind of acceleration through the 90s for I think it was 1994 maybe when the first priest was ordained as a woman. And then it kind of goes from there and it's like very, very quick acceleration from there. But yes, absolutely. Isn't that, that's the progression.
- [09:37]
B
I mean, I didn't know that. I'm learning that as we're talking about this on the podcast, but it, it just reminds me of what's going on in the PCA right now. They're, they're having an argument over whether or not women can be ordained as deacons. And I'm a Baptist, so we have a whole different view on ordination and what that means. But in those denominations where ordination has a theological significance, that seems like a domino in a progression and a strategy,
- [10:07]
C
honestly, from the liberal side, sort of the camel nose under the tent, look at this. It's acceptable, it works. So if that, then why not this? If deacon, why can't, you know, she'd be a priest? If she can be a priest, why can't she be a bishop? If a bishop, then why not an archbishop? That's exactly how it's always gone.
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B
And then all along the way they're saying, hey, we're not talking about being a priest, we're just talking about being a deacon. I mean, so when you're in the middle of the debate, it's actually a less radical claim. But then the claim, once you accept the less radical claim, then they press the more radical claim. Anyway, that just struck me when you said that it seems really relevant to current debates that are going on in evangelical congregations right now.
- [10:58]
A
Well, you certainly over time have seen an incremental approach. And one thing that I have noticed is that even though you might slow walk some of these and say, hey, listen, this isn't our end goal. This is just one step we think is is important. A lot of these things occur in these denominations when they're unpopular to the people who are actually existing in the churches. So we can look to our own denomination during the fundamentalist modernist controversy, the conservative resurgence.
- [11:30]
B
Southern Baptist Convention.
- [11:31]
A
Yeah, the Southern Baptist Convention. Thank you, Denny. The views of scripture, neo orthodoxy, the fallibility of scripture and ordination of women. While it was held by certain officeholders within the denomination, there were a number of professors who held those things that wasn't representative of the churches. And the same is true here today. The global Anglican Communion, if you were to just take a vote, would vote against this just by sheer numbers. Yet these things are forced top down on the rest of the people. So I read a BBC article that says it's amazing how in the media coverage of this there's a great attention given to the celebration. And then you have a couple paragraphs about the dissenters, those who are against the decision. So just one little line here in a BBC article says this. Some traditionalists in the Church of England and the wider global Anglican Communion continue to oppose the idea of women being priests at all. Well, it's not some traditionalists. It's the majority of the church is against this and yet they're pushing it on their people. So this. Go ahead, Denny.
- [12:47]
B
Well, I was going to say. And they kind of know what they're doing. I listened to an interview with Damian Thompson, who's a reporter for the Spectator. I think he covers religion and he was talking about the fact that within the, the Church of England, it's really not that controversial anymore to have some sort of acceptance of gay marriage. It's just not that big of a deal. And he says, you know, even a lot of the so called evangelical congregations are looking for some kind of compromise on it. They don't want to take a big stand on it, but they want to take some kind of compromise on it. He said. So it's not that, it's not that big of an issue within the Church of England. But then he says, but when it comes to the global Anglican Communion, it's like the only issue, the only issue. And so England is so out of step with the rest of the global, global Anglicanism and they know that and they're just doing what they can to, to do their own thing and hopefully hold the whole thing together. But it's kind of coming apart at
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A
the seams in an era of anti colonialism. What we've seen from leftists is their theological colonization of these churches. Right. They're wanting to impose their way of life, they, their theology on these people who exist in some, like some of these communions. And fellowships like Gafcon, which is the Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans, exists in large part to resist these measures. So final question here. What kind of meaningful communion can churches have in disagreements about female ordination? But then also shortly after the female ordination that happened in 1994 and then it was 2003, looking at GEFCON's website, where an Anglican clergy clergyman in America who is in a same sex relationship, having divorced his wife, is consecrated as a bishop. So we have the LGBT issue as well. What kind of meaningful communion can churches have with these kinds of divides?
- [14:49]
C
You know, it's interesting, CS Lewis, famously, he had a friendship with JR Tolkien and they would often talk about their differences. He's an Anglican, Tolkien's a Catholic. And at one point he was asked, Lewis was asked, why aren't you a Roman Catholic? And his answer is interesting. He basically said, well, I don't know what I would be signing up for in terms of their doctrine of papal infallibility, sort of ex cathedra, that he could sort of issue a dictate. And then all of a sudden the Roman Catholic communion has to sign up for that. And Lewis is basically saying, I can't in good conscience sign up for what I don't know, could in the future, I'd be required to submit to. I wonder what he would say about something like this happening in the Anglican Communion now where he was against this and he didn't sign up for this. And yet the Anglican Church there in England now has a female archbishop that not only is going against Scripture's plain commands regarding the pastoral office, but even other basic issues, like we already said LGBT pro choice. I think that he would have some significant disagreements and possibly even breaking communion. Of course, we don't know he's not here, we don't know that. But these are major issues and often we talk about theological triage. This is at least a second order issue, which is talking about how can you do church with other folks that have these fundamental disagreements around what is a pastor and what's the function of a pastor. And I know that traditionalists in the Anglican Church, conservatives, are having to ask that question. Now, one other point I would make, and then I'll give Denny the final word on this. I think what we're seeing is the ratchet effect. It's been observed in politics and theology, et cetera. Everybody's used a ratcheting wrench. And it's really easy one direction to sort of like turn it. And it seems like that turn in the easy direction is always to the left, always to the progressive direction. And then it's really, it's much more difficult. It takes a lot more force to try to yank that back to the right. And so I think what we're seeing here is how easy it is to click another two, another three slots to the left, and how much work and effort it is really to try to bring things back to orthodoxy. It happened in the sbc. I hope it can happen in the Church of England. But, uh, but it's so much. Takes so much more effort.
- [17:13]
B
Yeah, you know, it's. It's funny you mentioned that, because in her own story, Sarah Mulally's story, according to her biographer, and basically I heard an interview with her biographer who said that basically, you know, she started out as an evangelical and was. Was associated with, you know, those very conservative, small minority ish churches of evangelicals in England, and then eventually came into, you know, she sort of moved left as she moved up the hierarchy or she got into the hierarchy. And so I don't. I don't know what her whole track is, but she didn't start out in those kinds of churches. But over time, that's where she went to. And of course, all of her positions have gone way left. Now you say, okay, that's just. You're just being political now. What's that have to do with being a churchman or a church woman? Well, it has everything to do with it, because the positions that she staked out are antithetical to the Christian faith. So it's one thing to ordain a woman. We could call that a secondary issue. But that particular secondary issue betrays a habit of thinking and a way of reading the Bible which tacks to the left. It just does. Not in every individual person, but with many people and in many of the people who are discipled by the people who make that move. So what do I mean by this? Well, it's what Colin just mentioned. If you can find a way to make. I don't allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man to mean I do allow a woman to teach and exercise authority over a man. If you can find a way to make that happen, that approach can be. That approach to reading the scripture can be applied elsewhere. You can apply it to what the Bible says about sexual morality. You can talk about what the Bible says about Homosexuality, you can apply it to anything. It's like a universal acid. And so now you're in. Once that starts happening, guess what? We're not in secondary issue anymore. We're in primary issues and we're into issues which are the difference between whether a person is a Christian or not, not whether or not they can be a priest or not, or a bishop, whether or not they're even Christian anymore. And she is. She has announced that she intends to shepherd the Church of England. She was asked explicitly in her interview, what's she going to do about these single same, these individual ceremonies for same sex blessing. Are you going to support it? You've supported it in the past. She doesn't repudiate her support. She retreats into this bureaucratic, well, we're going to let the Synod decide on this. She says she wants the shepherd and she takes no position on this, even though in the past publicly she's been for these same sex blessings. Now, what does the Scripture say about this? And what does the Scripture say about union with this? Think about Jude, verse 4. Certain persons have crept in unnoticed. Those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. Ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. Now notice what Jude is saying there. He's saying, if you take the grace of God and you somehow transform it into a permission slip to be sexually licentious, to live in a way that goes against what God has prescribed, if you've done that, it says their condemnation has been marked out for them. And later on he says they are the ones for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. So what I'm trying to say is, and this is what Gafcon and other people in the global Anglican Communion have recognized. It's not just that they don't have fellowship, they don't recognize this as Christian. There's no fellowship. You cannot have fellowship, light with darkness. She is promoting licentiousness within the communion and calling herself the shepherd, the chief shepherd over the Church of England. So there is no fellowship that you can have with that. You have to call it for what it is. It's a fundamental departure from the Christian faith. She has no business being in that position. Not only because she's a woman, but because she's not a Christian. Okay, I'm just going to say it. I don't believe that somebody who comes in and has a fundamental denial of the Christian faith like this can even credibly call themselves a Christian.
- [21:28]
A
Well, thank you Denny. Thank you Colin and thank you for those who are listening today or watching. For more podcast articles and icon, visit cbmw.org.