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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. They're everywhere, all over social media and filling the pages of Shelter magazine. Rooms that are richly layered, full of deep and dramatic colors, scenic wallpapers, moody murals, glossy lacquer and elaborate pattern mixes, paisleys and stripes and florals. Oh my. As two new books make clear, we are in an era of design at high volume. Maximalism by the editors at Phaiden brings together more than 200 elaborate and over the top interiors ranging from Versailles and John Nash to Rudolf Nureyev, Mario Bowata and Denning and Fourcade, as well as examples by many of today's top practitioners of the style. It is a sumptuous and dazzling compendium, and Carl Delatorre's new book from Rizzoli, More is More is Today's Maximalist Interiors focuses on the current generation of designers who embrace this style with rooms by Michelle Nussbaumer, Kelly Werstler, Patrick Mele, Stephen Gambrell, Summer Thornton and many others, as well as insights from each designer into the creative thinking behind each room. But as we all know, the pendulum swings now that this style has been captured between hardcovers, now that maximalism is inescapable. Does that mean that we have maxed out on maximalism? I have with me today three designers who understand the appeal of maximalism and certainly have the style in their wheelhouse and who are ready to weigh in on its future. First up is Matthew Carter, a Lexington, Kentucky based designer known for his love of history and for incorporating antiques and heirlooms into homes that remain contemporary, fresh and inviting. His recent projects span from Napa Valley, Vail, Charleston in New York to Palm beach and Lyford Kay in the Bahamas. Welcome Matthew thank you Michael.
- [02:12]
Matthew Carter
Great to be with everyone.
- [02:14]
Michael Boudreau
So glad you're here. Utah based Hillary Taylor creates interiors that, perhaps inspired by her California upbringing and years living in Paris, bring a casual elegance to neo traditional design. Her rooms are classic and refined you yet always comfortable and bright. Hello Hilary, hi.
- [02:31]
Hillary Taylor
It's so nice to be here.
- [02:32]
Michael Boudreau
So glad you're here. Alexander Dougherty is based in Manhattan, but he was educated in England, France and Italy. He launched his firm in 2007 and his lush, layered and richly appointed rooms are influenced by his extensive global travels. Always worldly, sophisticated and Elegant. Hello, Alexander.
- [02:52]
Alexander Dougherty
Hello, Michael. Hello, everybody.
- [02:54]
Michael Boudreau
Listen, I'm so glad you guys agreed to talk about this subject. And I want to make clear I don't think that any of you, per se, are maximalist designers. You know that that's not totally what you do. But I'd love to get a sense from each of you how you think about maximalist design at the moment. Cause we've been seeing it for a while. It has been growing, you know, all the bright colors, whatever. So I'd love to get a sense of. Are your clients asking for it? Do you feel pressure from social media that you should show only your brightest, boldest rooms? Hillary, let's start with you. Ladies first.
- [03:28]
Hillary Taylor
Okay. You know, it's a tough one because I'm part of the choir a little bit, right? So you don't want to point fingers, but for sure, you know, it's just a function of the society and the world we're living in. Things are a little more than they used to be. And for my clients, those layers really work. Of course, my layers aren't as opulent as Denning and for Cod. Right. But and for me, who's I? Well, I mean, there are. Right. I saw Angetti's apartment. Right. I think there are levels, and everyone has their level. My clients love it because those layers add texture. It just kind of tells more of a story of their life. It can be much more personal that way. And then it kind of hides all the mishaps that happen in a big or small family life or just a family with dogs. Frankly, I think the style lends itself to my clients. They love it.
- [04:30]
Michael Boudreau
It's more forgiving.
- [04:32]
Matthew Carter
Well, I was going to say, I think there's a difference between, like, layers and maximalism, because I love layers layering rooms, and I love layered rooms. You know, I think I tend to stay away from anything that has, like, a tagline on it or gets over publicized or, like, I love history, and I love family history, and I love incorporating that into interiors. And so for me, I don't think I could ever create a room that was on the opposite side of maximalism, like a totally minimalist room. But I do think there's sort of a fine line in there somewhere of, like, if things are getting overwrought, then I tend to really pull back quite a bit.
- [05:13]
Michael Boudreau
And, Alexander, what about you? Because in a way, I think of the group here, your rooms are probably the most European and in a way, maybe more richly layered than, say, Hillary's, which I think of as being More bright and sunny and California esque. So is this something that you, you know, because if this is what you love, to see it become a trend, I think probably in a way has been a little bit painful, no. Or am I wrong? No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay.
- [05:40]
Alexander Dougherty
I know that this is painful.
- [05:41]
Michael Boudreau
This is interior design.
- [05:43]
Alexander Dougherty
How painful could it be?
- [05:45]
Michael Boudreau
Good point.
- [05:46]
Alexander Dougherty
No, I would agree with everybody else. I would agree with what Matthew has just said. I think that for me, it's very problematic if you start saying things like my approach is maximalism, because that would suggest that you go about your interiors by adding and adding and adding and adding and more and more. And that's certainly not what I do. I think that for me, what could be very confusing is that as a result of an interior being kind of filled with stuff that has come from people's lives and things that they like and has a meaning, calling that maximalism is not perhaps the right way about. I think that, you know, kind of, if you set about creating a space that is maximalist, there is an element of it being very contrived because you've started out with a very kind of. You've got a point of view to fill a space and make it look rich and make it look really full. And that's just not what I do. I mean, I happen to bring in things that the family has that I like, that they like, and. And if the result is one of it being very full and rich and layered, then so be it. But it's not necessarily the point of departure. So I think there's a big difference between the two.
- [07:04]
Michael Boudreau
Right. And I don't mean to imply that you just bring in stuff. I mean, I think your room.
- [07:09]
Alexander Dougherty
No, no, no, no, I understand.
- [07:09]
Michael Boudreau
Your rooms are very considered, you know, and refined. No, no, no, no, no, they're not.
- [07:15]
Alexander Dougherty
I just bring.
- [07:15]
Michael Boudreau
Well, they look like they are.
- [07:18]
Hillary Taylor
That's where the photographs, I would say. I mean, in all of that, though, there is such a fine line between gauche. Right. Where we've gone too far. I mean, that level, frankly, I think, you know, when you know, and usually more is more, only works if the structure's right. If you have those walls in place, if you have proportion and scale and balance and all those other pieces, more could be more, but it's not always more.
- [07:48]
Michael Boudreau
Right.
- [07:49]
Matthew Carter
Well, and I love Alexander's point about collected things that a family has had and using those things versus a decorator backing the truck up and just unloading. And it always comes through real style versus an installation.
- [08:05]
Michael Boudreau
And one of the things that's been interesting to me is that what we think of maximalism now is very different from maximalism in the 80s. As I was saying, the pendulum swings and things, you know, like, I remember the 80s with paisley fabrics and majolica plates and heavy drapes and those layers, you know, Denning and Fourcade were the exemplars of that. Dan Getty was another perfect example. But today it's much more brighter, colorful, and that kind of, you know, it's patterned, yes, but it's bolder patterns. It's not that kind of subtle brocades and paisleys and those kind of things from the 80s. And. And, you know, and then I remember, I think that was sort of a reaction against minimalism and industrial chic, when people literally were decorating with moving van pads. You know, I remember platforms. My question now is, how do you think this maximalism, for lack of a better term, and I blame it on Fiden and I blame it on Rizzoli. We'll call it maximalism. Cause they did. How do you think it's going to evolve? I mean, it can stay the same just as it's different now than it was in the 80s. What do you think is going to happen? Hillary, why don't you weigh in?
- [09:11]
Hillary Taylor
I mean, I think we'll pull back. And of course, like you were mentioning before, the pendulum will swing. I just don't know that we'll ever see that crazy tight aesthetic of the 90s, the kind of beige everything. I think there's a little bit more, maybe democracy to design, and some of that is because of our media. You have a lot of different perspectives showing and there's some equality there. So I think it'll just kind of soften a little bit. That's my mind. But I think there will always be a client who does want more and wants you to take risks and likes a little bit of maybe not opulence, but some more eccentricity. And it'll always be up to me to say, okay, it's time to pull back now, or to ask for a little more. I mean, I think that's the truth is every piece you bring in, not all of my clients have family heirlooms. And so we find them. We find them on Cherish, frankly. But every piece we bring in better darn well tell that story in a much more authentic way than just be more right.
- [10:18]
Michael Boudreau
And Alexander, you mentioned that a lot of your clients do have family heirlooms and stuff. So is it a question of when you're dealing with them. Do you often have to edit down or do your clients open to this idea that they want elegance for clarity?
- [10:33]
Alexander Dougherty
I think that it's very nice for clients if you can reuse things that they already have in a completely new and fresh way. So, for example, one of the things that I very often do is I will reuse art that they have already had, but I'll have everything reframed. And so straight away, it's like, oh, my God, did we already have that? Because, you know, I mean, it could have been in a really heavy gilt, bad 19th century frame. And then, you know, you take it out of that and you put it in a shadow box, and it's a completely different piece, for example. So, you know, kind of. I think that, yeah, clients definitely like to see and feel very authenticated if you take a piece that they've already had and you put it into a new context. Because in a way, it's like saying you made the right choice the first time round, or your grandfather did, or your great grandfather did, or whoever bought it.
- [11:25]
Michael Boudreau
Right. It's like resetting a jewel.
- [11:27]
Matthew Carter
Yeah. And to that point, I mean, like, their clients may have, like, a fabulous chair that has great form to it, but maybe it wants to. Like Albert Hadley, I think, once said, a can of white paint goes a long way. And so if maybe the chair is painted, you know, an old white, and then it has a fabulous fabric put on it, or it's used in a different way, I think those are all ways to bring all these family pieces and bring them up to the 21st century.
- [11:54]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, now I'm gonna bring up a bugaboo that many people complain about. At least they've complained about it on this podcast, which is social media and the influence of social media. Not that we don't all use social media and Instagram and Pinterest and all that, but I do think that one of the things about social media is it tends to get people to post their most vivid and colorful rooms, which have you found that to be an issue? Like your clients? People come to you because you're attracted to your brightest, most vivid rooms as opposed to maybe your most understated and elegant rooms. Matthew, are you saying yes?
- [12:29]
Matthew Carter
I think so. I mean, I remember I did a show house living room in Charleston years ago, and the walls were painted this really intense chartreuse green. And it was really the only time I've ever used chartreuse green. And all of a sudden, I became known for this. Oh, he loves chartreuse green. I'd never used chartreuse green before. I mean, I thought the room was beautiful. And now I do have sort of an old looking chartreuse sofa in my living room. But it was like, oh, we love chartreuse. Like it was just a room that got a lot of attention.
- [13:02]
Michael Boudreau
Right.
- [13:02]
Matthew Carter
And all of a sudden, I mean, we do pretty. Like most of my rooms, you know, the backgrounds are cream or brown or, you know, like they're pretty tame. And then I'll punch up the fabrics, but you can get pigeonholed if you're not careful.
- [13:18]
Michael Boudreau
Now, Hillary, a lot of your rooms have white backgrounds. So is that a plus in terms of social media or do people looking for these crazy wallpapers or the beautiful Frohmanthal or Gracie wallpapers, that kind of thing? De Garnier, is it a self fulfilling prophecy here where people are putting up these rooms and people see them, they want more rooms like that? Is that an issue for you?
- [13:40]
Hillary Taylor
It's not. In fact, it's interesting, I think clients, the one thing about social media that's interesting in our world, I think, is people are learning what they're seeing. They'll watch you for a couple of years. And so, like Matthew was saying, I tend to get a call on that big, bold, crazy room that I had to do to save it. Right. I was doing a remodel a few years ago at a ranch and this tiny. I mean, it was like a stovepipe of a room, just vertical and tiny. And they wanted to watch TV in there. So we upholstered the walls and we went bold. And it was a very stripy, dynamic pattern. And I've had multiple people call me, can you please do that for me? So I do think, yes, you get that kind of interest in the most bold thing on your feed. But in general, people jive with your personality and your whole esthetic in terms of lifestyle more than they do one room, I would think.
- [14:41]
Michael Boudreau
But so hopefully they'll look through your whole feed, right?
- [14:45]
Hillary Taylor
Yeah.
- [14:46]
Michael Boudreau
And Alexander, how about you? Has social media been a plus or a minus in terms of how people think about your work?
- [14:51]
Alexander Dougherty
I don't really know what people think about my work. They don't really say on social media what they think about me, but so I post photographs like everybody else. Of course, I don't think I've ever had a client through social media, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. I don't know. I've never had anybody say to me, I want you to do for me what you've done. There I mean, it just hasn't happened. I mean, what happens to me is that, you know, people look at your website, of course, before they hire you, and, you know, if you want somebody who's going to be making things in concrete and steel and glass, you're not going to come to me.
- [15:23]
Michael Boudreau
Right?
- [15:24]
Alexander Dougherty
And that's absolutely clear by the apartments that I've done. So I think that my fingerprints are probably on all of the projects. And even though I can't necessarily recognize it straight away, I'm sure that the clients can. And so what they're looking for is something that fits along the lines of work that I've done in the past, as opposed to specifically kind of having seen a room with paisley upholstered on the wall or anything, I don't know, and saying, I want that. Cause I've seen that on Instagram. I mean, that just hasn't happened to me, but, you know, I wish it would.
- [15:59]
Michael Boudreau
So I want to get a sense from each of you what you like about maximalist designers. Are there designers who you like? Have you ever seen a room or an install or gone to an apartment that's been done in a maximalist way where you thought, oh, this gave me an idea, is that I've responded to this. Whose work do you like? I mean, you only have to name names of people you like. I'm not going to ask you to name names for you people you don't like. But I'd love to get a sense from who you think is really good at it and what ideas you've taken from it and adapted to your own work. Because we're all influenced. Hilary, let's start with you, okay?
- [16:33]
Hillary Taylor
I mean, frankly, Laveau and Nash are my favorites. They did it first in many ways. And they. I mean, frankly, I think we've been reinterpreting that much of what we've seen in the last. I would say 10 years is almost. We're living our own fantasiecla, right? So Gilded Age, Belle Epoch, whatever you wanna call it, we're all kind of reinterpreting something else. But I think of the maximalists. I would say those two. I would say Bowata. I just loved him so much. Mark Hampton, even.
- [17:09]
Michael Boudreau
Good one.
- [17:10]
Hillary Taylor
But it's like Billy Baldwin and all those people and Michael Taylor all had some DNA. That's my DNA. It's a mix.
- [17:18]
Michael Boudreau
Right, Gotcha. Matthew, what about you?
- [17:20]
Matthew Carter
Like Hillary? I'm always looking to the past for inspiration. And like Albert Hadley and Sister Parrish and the dichotomy between And I know they're mentioned all the time, but really, from the moment I sort of discovered this world and their work, that's really what spoke to me. And, like, the way they used lacquer, I think that's brilliant, because it's not, you know, the ceiling's lacquered, the walls are lacquered, the bookcase is lacquered. The whole thing, like, there is some restraint there. And they had beautiful layered rooms that had so much personality. I love that sort of maximalism and that sort of layering rather than a lot of. Honestly, what you see today, where it's just maximalist to be maximalist.
- [18:07]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, so I guess my question. Alexander, maybe you can answer this. Do you think that after all the color clashes and the shiny lacquer, the bold, you know, the jewel colors, all of that, and a lot of it, it's very attractive. I mean, it's not the way I live, but I think it looks great. But do you think there's going to be a shift away from that? I mean, we're talking about Albert Hadley. I think of Jean Michel Frank. I think about, you know, even Joe Durstow, kind of, in a way. Do you think there's going to be a shift? I mean, the pendulum has got to swing somewhere. So what do you think is gonna happen? What are you looking at yourself?
- [18:43]
Alexander Dougherty
So to answer the first part of the question that you asked Hillary and Matthew about who I like. So I'm not American, and I'm not super familiar with all of the American designers, but, for example, I particularly like Robert Keim, who died recently. So that's the kind of thing I like. I like. Even though we're using the word. Yeah. And I think that even though we're using the word maximalist, and we're talking about a way of describing maximalism, which is the bold colors and the strong pattern and so on and so forth, I think clearly my idea of Maxim is getting back towards that idea of collecting in layers. So if I look at something like the work of Robert Keim, I think that what I'm drawn to there is the notion of I'm a massive traveler, I travel all the time, and I love the idea of buying things when you travel. And not everybody has that privilege, but I think that that's something I like to do for my clients. So I'm very lucky. I spend about two weeks out of every five weeks in Paris, and I'm constantly sending things back to my clients from Europe, and I think it's that kind of thing. That I'm drawn to. So I would say that Robert Keim, who's just recently died and there's been a sale of his things, is a very interesting example of somebody who, for, I don't know, 60, 70 years, just bought and bought objects and artifacts and then infused his interiors with those things. So I think about that, and then we talk about the pendulum swinging away from where we're at now. My idea of maximalism is not something that is a fad or a trend. You know, I mean, I think that it's something that people have always done and will continue to do. I think that people need to have some kind, or many people anyway, need to have some anchoring root, be that an object or a piece from the past or even if you've just bought it. The idea of maximalism, to me is just surrounding yourself by things which mean something.
- [20:54]
Matthew Carter
I feel like I've done a version of the same thing for 20 years. You know, like, style does evolve, but I look at rooms that I've done for clients 10 years ago, 15 years ago that need to be refreshed, but that still do look good. And so I think there is this should always be this idea that things really should be timeless and they should stand the test of time because decorating is expensive. And to do it right, I think it really needs to last.
- [21:26]
Ana Brockway
Hi, everybody. I'm Ana Brockway, co founder and president of Cherish, and I'm here to remind interior designers that our extended return policy is ending on October 31st. For a limited time, Cherish is extending our return window for trade members only from two to a full 14 days. Don't miss the opportunity to access the best return policy in the industry. It's time to get shopping. For more information, visit cherish.com trade that's C-H-A-I-R-I-S-H.com trade and now back to the show.
- [22:04]
Michael Boudreau
Well, it's interesting, Alexander, you brought up British. You know, like, let's face it, British country homes have been layered rich, lots of materials, but we never thought of them as maximalist per se. And the way that we think of it now, you know, it's not the same color palettes, it wasn't the same bold effects, but certainly they're layered. So I, you know, and often they were kind of jazzy, you know, David Hicks with all the geometrics, all that kind of stuff. So there was a lot of energy to it. But yet that never got considered, you know, like an over the top style. Americans, I Think look to the British country houses as sort of respites of really elegance and comfort.
- [22:41]
Alexander Dougherty
Well, I would say that anything that, you know, if you want to use the word to describe it as eye catching and punchy, I would say that it's going to have its day. That's a great point, because it's inevitable, because those words indicate something that is very transient. So if that's how we're going to describe maximalism, then maximalism will have its day. Absolutely. Whether that day is tomorrow or in one year or 10 years. And what will it be replaced with? I think that it will be replaced. I mean, if you think about it as being something extreme in one way, then it has to come back. It can't go any further. So if it's already at the point where it's where it needs to be, then it will come back to something much soother, much more soft, much more calm. I think calm. People like calm. I like calm.
- [23:30]
Matthew Carter
And I think you can have calm with layers.
- [23:33]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, yeah, I agree, absolutely.
- [23:36]
Hillary Taylor
I also think something you said there, Alexander, really touches the point for me, at least, which is softness. So we feel radiance out of a room that has natural light or has proper balance and scale proportion, all the rhythms. But I think when something's a little too hard, a little too shiny, a little too something, that is going to go away. And you're exactly right, Matthew and Alexander, I'm right on the same page. I don't really think the type of layering that we're talking about in terms of our work or some of those that we love, including angeti, frankly, these things look good for a long time, for decades.
- [24:17]
Michael Boudreau
Matthew, you mentioned that word that everybody aspires to, but I'm not sure it actually exists, which is timelessness. Because I do think, you know, like Diana Vreeland said, the eye has to travel. This is the reason there's trends. This is the reason people come to you guys and say, I wanna refresh my house, I wanna redo my house. So timelessness can be a great thing to go after, but I'm not sure anybody actually wants to achieve it. And I think that that's probably what just Dr. 10 years. Because I think it's probably had been about 10 years. I mean, these books would indicate. I mean, not to mention Versailles and John Nash and all of that. But, you know, just within the last 10 years of American decorating, we've seen a lot of color, a lot of lacquer, a lot of patterns. And I guess the question Is, are we maxed out on maximalism, you know, which is what we're trying to get at here. And not to say that people still won't want it, but will it seem as appealing to a broad number of people as it has so far? Do you think the eye is getting ready for something new?
- [25:17]
Matthew Carter
I think the simple answer is yes. I mean, I just think that once whatever it is becomes so saturated, it's inevitable it's just going to happen.
- [25:27]
Michael Boudreau
So give me a hint about what you're looking at, what you're thinking about. I mean, I was at Asian art, you know, which is so simple in English arts and crafts. What do you think is going to say, spark this sort of shift?
- [25:38]
Matthew Carter
Well, I think we've been talking about this for decades, but I think real style really is about just mixing it all up. And there's this word eclectic. That is what everyone says, but I'm always like Alexander, really inspired by travel and just getting out there and seeing things, rather than like, I think Instagram is a fabulous tool and I use it, but I try not to be too inspired by it, because that is at least interiors, because I think that's when you go down the rabbit hole of doing what everyone else is doing. And so the maximalists out there, you see a lot of it, and you see a lot of really heavy, overwrought rooms. I think the pendulum is going to swing. I don't think we're going back to, like Hillary said earlier, 90s beige, but I think there will be a softness for sure.
- [26:32]
Michael Boudreau
And Hillary, what are you looking at? What are you thinking about in the back of your mind? Nobody's come to you and said, I want to do a room like this, but you're thinking, you're looking at it and saying, hmm, that's so interesting.
- [26:41]
Hillary Taylor
Mostly, I think, because of the economics of where we've been globally, frankly, we've been in a great place, despite a pandemic. We've had this amazing explosion in our industry. I still think that pendulum will swing, too. And then what you'll get is a little bit of contempt. So I think that's just part of it. That's part of the media side of having a world where people share. They share a lot. And so I think privacy is something I'm seeing a little more. And again, with the softness, I think we don't have to have prints on everything, even though I love them, but I do think having a little more color blocking or using a few more neutrals among, you know, there's Nothing wrong with having a white wall. I mean, you've pointed that out. It's on my own Instagram. But I do think that texture is important either way. So however you do that, even if we're pulling back from everything being hand painted, that's just not tenable. It's not tenable for good taste or for longevity in a home, but it's also. It's a bit much. It could be a little tacky.
- [27:52]
Matthew Carter
Right, right.
- [27:54]
Michael Boudreau
I'm glad you said it. I didn't want to. Hillary and Alexander, what about you? Because your rooms are very elegant and refined. I mean, layered, as we were saying. So I guess my question to you is, what are you looking at? What are you steering your clients to? Because I do think clients come to you designers for guidance, your ideas. You want specific problems that you have to solve. This room is too small, that room's too tall, whatever it might be, like you were mentioning. But they also, I think, want guidance about how to live, what they should be looking at, what they should be thinking about. So how are you steering your clients?
- [28:31]
Alexander Dougherty
I think that not dissimilar to what Matthew said about. I mean, has my style evolved that much over the last 10 to 15 years? Probably not. If I look at the apartments that are published on my website, which date back from that period up to today, they're not that different. And I think that in 10 years time, will they be that different? Probably not. I mean, there'll be different objects, and the paintings will be different and the fabrics will be different. Because, you know, every day there are new fabrics on the market. And I'm sure, like everybody, I'm as much influenced by trend, certainly, as anybody else. So there'll be colors that I'll be more prone to using today than maybe I would have been five years ago or 10 years ago. And in the same way, in five years time or in 10 years time, I'll probably not be using those colors anymore, and they'll have been replaced with another one. But I think essentially, I can't really imagine my style changing that much. And so I can't really imagine clients coming to me wanting something different from what I'm providing right now. I mean, you know, so if I give you an example, we've just taken on a project here in the city. It's a big apartment in a building that was built in 1908, and the clients, you know, would like some kind of reference to the architectural vernacular of that period. So I thought about it and thought, okay, well, obviously, art Nouveau would have been something that was around then. And I can't stand art nouveau. So I thought, okay, well, what can I say? Instead of art nouveau. So I've now got them hooked on Vienna Secession, okay? Because I love the Secession.
- [30:11]
Michael Boudreau
I love.
- [30:12]
Alexander Dougherty
So here we are now looking at furniture of Otto Wagner. But, you know, I could be looking at furniture otto Wagner in 10 years time. So it's very difficult for me to say what's gonna happen because I'm just so not on trend, don't care about trend.
- [30:28]
Michael Boudreau
And that brings up this point, which I think is true for all three of you. It's like, you know, how do you merge your personal style with the trends of the moment? You know? And I think when you look at these rooms and these books, some of these designers are brilliant at doing this, brilliant at working with vivid colors. But if it's not your thing as a designer, it's not your vision, how do you respond to that? Do you go a little bit brighter? Do you tell your clients, no, we're going to do Vienna Verstada, which I believe Vienna Succession is coming back. I love it. But how do I guess. It's like, Matthew, you work in the south, which is at least by cliche, loves tradition and loves history. And I think that, you know, at least that aspect of that is true. So how do your clients, you know, do you think about pushing them in different ways or.
- [31:19]
Matthew Carter
You know, I do, but I think my goal as a designer is I want someone that's 25 years old to walk in a room and love it. And I want someone that's 75 years old to walk in the same room and love it. And I think that there is a way to do that, you know, and it's all about sort of how you mix sort of hipness with how you mix a little elderly style in there with how you mix something that's chic and something traditional. Like, I think there's a way just. It's very sort of intuitive to me. I just don't like anything that feels too clever or too like. I've really thought about this scheme for hours and hours and hours. You know, I just want something to feel a little less effortful, I guess.
- [32:07]
Michael Boudreau
I'd say a little more organic.
- [32:09]
Matthew Carter
A little more organic.
- [32:10]
Michael Boudreau
Clever is a good adjective. I think, for some of these rooms, they're very clever. You know, I mean, looking through those books, I saw a lot of rooms that are very clever. But then I also saw there's some wonderful rooms, you know, I mean, that you want to be in. But then there's other ones that you think, oh, maybe this was done for the camera lens, not for the people who use the room, which is a danger with any style that could be a danger with minimalism. You know, John Pawson, those rooms, they look beautiful in a photograph, but how do they function? And I guess it's always. And like I was saying, you three have very distinctive styles, which is why I didn't want to just bring on a lot of maximalist designers and say, oh, yes, it's all wonderful. We love maximalism. Da, da. And I was never going away, because I don't think that's quite true. It won't ever go away, but it will ebb and flow. And people, you know, more and more, it's always going to be there. Just, you know, Versailles still there. And Versailles been influenc since it was done. You know, Andre, all that stuff. So I guess the question is, I just wanted to get a sense from you guys how you perceive this emphasis on a particular way of looking at design that doesn't necessarily fit in with your take on it. And has that been difficult for you? Hilary, are you relieved that, you know, white walls may be coming back? I mean, I know you love a white wall. You have rooms full of white walls. They're great.
- [33:29]
Hillary Taylor
Okay. In general, I'm hired to provide a better lifestyle, potentially improve a space. Right. At minimum, do no harm.
- [33:40]
Michael Boudreau
Exactly.
- [33:42]
Hillary Taylor
And so I can't say that I'm not doing a stage. These things. We are, in some ways, stage designers. I just think there's a level where that stage goes beyond reality and beyond comfort. And frankly, I do want to just finish a job and not redo it all the time. I really love it when a client says, this was the best. Thank you for finding these chairs for me from that auction. They mean so much to me. I'm never going to touch them. And I kind of love that because I'm trying to give something not only hopefully, to take in what they've received from their generations, but also for their posterity, so that they have something to pass down. So it is not really informed about. All teal lacquer with brass inlay. In some ways, they give me. It's something to push against, which is kind of nice. So trends, when you're a traditionalist like I am, they can actually work to your benefit to say, here's an example. And because I find I'm more of an educator therapist sometimes than I am a creative, trying to explain why we start in a certain way. Why I'm starting here and not there? I'm trying to improve your lifestyle and I'm listening to what you want. So I'm trying to give you what you want. And I just don't think that whether maximalism passes or comes back through, we'll always look at it as an art form that will come and go, that we can draw from and see the pitfalls in some cases, but also in some cases, in form moments. Maybe it's a dressing room or the way a bathroom, the tile looks, or whatever it is. I'm definitely using those things for my education at least, so.
- [35:30]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, great. Matthew, what about you? Are there moments from maximalist style design that you've taken, that you're impressed with and that you would adapt for your own work?
- [35:39]
Matthew Carter
Yeah, I mean, I think there are all kinds of different things. Like, again, going back to, like, with what I do, I like if there's a really super graphic moment, then I tend to pull back in other areas. Like in our primary bathroom, for instance, we've had this very graphic black and white sort of geometric floor for quite a long time, for probably a dozen years. But everything else, the walls are paneled and painted white and it's pretty serene. If there's a strong moment, then I'll pull back. Like lacquer, for instance. I remember my first visit to a Kips Bay show house years and years ago. Parrish Hadley had an advertisement in the Big Book that you used to get, and it was this fabulous living room and it was lacquered in the most amazing green. And I thought, this is the most beautiful room I've ever seen and just assumed it was current. And then in tiny little print in the bottom right corner, it said New York City, 1963. You know, and I thought like that. To me, it was maximalist in its way. Like, there are elements that I think will always be with us.
- [36:46]
Michael Boudreau
And would you agree, Alexander?
- [36:48]
Alexander Dougherty
Yeah, I think I'd agree. I think that the aspect of maximalism, which is the extremely strong and immediately recognizable aspect of what we associate wrongly or rightly so with maximalism, or will probably diminish and will certainly resurface at some later point in time. But I think that all of the ancillary aspects of maximalism can continue without any problem. So, for example, if you imagine that maximal, you've got the envelope of space and then you've got what's in the space. So if the maximalism attitude to the envelope is one of something very strong and vibrant and sometimes a little bit too much. What's in the space can work just as well if it's all surrounded by soft creams or, you know, kind of blue grays or very soothing colors. So I think that the things that one imagines are maximalism. That is an abundance of art, an abundance of objects, an abundance of books. All of those things can continue without any problem whatsoever. And we might see a little bit of a pullback on the envelope. That makes sense, right?
- [38:03]
Michael Boudreau
Absolutely. So I think, judging from what you've all said, you know, there's a wonderful elements of maximalism, but maybe it's time that we give our eyes a rest and we think about what's coming up next. We look for a little serenity, we look for a little softness. Is that fair to say? Is that something you're all thinking about? I just want to take it. So, you know, maximalism is here, it's going strong. But maybe it's time for us to think about what's next. So I want to thank my wonderful, wonderful guests, Hilary Taylor, Alexander Dougherty and Matthew Carter. And let's drink a toast to maximalism. And let's move on and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us at podcasterish.
- [39:19]
Alexander Dougherty
Com.
- [39:20]
Michael Boudreau
The Cherish Podcast is produced by Britter Mueller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.