← The Chairish Podcast
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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is a Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. Because this is the 100th episode of the Cherish podcast, which I can't quite believe, we're doing something a little different at a time when, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20% of new businesses fail during their first two years, 45% during their first five years, and a shocking 65% of all new businesses failed during their first 10 years. We want to celebrate four women who have overcome the odds and who are marking a decade of success with the firms they founded. These four women in the fields of fashion, beauty and health, online vintage sales, and interior design, face the usual challenges and more in conceptualizing, launching, and sustaining their businesses in highly competitive markets. I'm so happy to have them with me to talk about the obstacles they've overcome, their strategies for success, and what they see ahead. After growing up in a family of fine winemakers in Napa Valley, April Gargiulo founded Vintner's Daughter, her line of three skincare essentials based on the same principles of unparalleled quality and efficacy and the same uncompromising standards that her family winery was built on. Over the past decade, Vintner's Daughter has expanded far beyond cult status to become a major player in the beauty and wellness area. Hello, April.
- [01:46]
Ana Brockway
Hello.
- [01:47]
April Gargiulo
Thank you for having me.
- [01:48]
Michael Boudreau
Glad you're here. Charlotte, North Carolina based interior designer Charlotte Lucas is known for her colorful contemporary and feminine rooms, which update Southern tradition with bold graphic elements, rich patterns, and saturated palettes. A North Carolina native and the daughter of a designer, she infuses all of her designs with the love of history and her own youthful spirit. Welcome, Charlotte.
- [02:11]
Charlotte Lucas
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
- [02:14]
Michael Boudreau
Great. Since its founding by former stylist, magazine editor and creative director Rebecca Hessel Cohen, Love Shack Fancy has become a fashion sensation. Its frankly flirty and feminine aesthetic is a favorite of both young college women and highly successful business women. The brand opened its first shop in Sack Harbor, New York, in 2018 and now has 16 stores across the country and a new one in London. And the brand has expanded into home items, accessories, and most recently, fragrance and beauty. Hello, Rebecca.
- [02:44]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.
- [02:46]
Michael Boudreau
And I'm also pleased to have with us Ana Brockway the co founder and president of Cherish. After a career in fashion, Ana launched Cherish with her husband Greg, changing forever the way antiques and vintage items are sold and building a large and loyal following of designers and consumers who not only shop the site, but look to Cherish and its social media posts, emails, magazine, and this podcast for design information and inspiration. Welcome, Ana.
- [03:13]
Ana Brockway
Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me. Hello, everyone.
- [03:15]
Michael Boudreau
First of all, I just wanna congratulate all four of you for lasting a decade. Cause as I was saying, that is an amazing feat. It is an amazing feat in this economic environment. And it's been a God knows, a rough and ready decade and you have all survived it. So congratulations to you all. So I wanna get a from each of you and maybe we'll start with you. April, why you decided to start your own firm. I mean, you were from a family of vintners, winemakers, so obviously you knew about nature, but why skincare? And why did you feel that you could add something into a really tough competitive market?
- [03:52]
April Gargiulo
Yeah, well, so having grown up in the wine industry, I had this sense of what it takes to make the very finest of something, starting with the finest raw materials and honoring those materials through really thoughtful, meticulous craftsmanship. And that, I mean, as a kid, I wouldn't have said this, but today I can say that really informed my definition of luxury. And at the same time, I was somebody who always struggled with my skin. I had cystic acne pigmentation, all the things that come along as you get older, and was using what I thought were luxury products. They were certainly very expensive products. And wasn't until I was pregnant with my first daughter, I started looking at the ingredients and by no means did I think the products were going to be clean, but I did think that they were going to be, again, luxury. Right? They were going to be made with some of the highest quality raw ingredients. Well, what I found was exactly the opposite, that they were made with some of the cheapest, lowest quality ingredients in the world that oftentimes were also harmful to both myself and the environment. And so with Vintner's Daughter, the mission was, how do I create a skincare company that lives up to that idea of luxury, true luxury, where you start with the finest raw materials and you honor those materials through very meticulous, thoughtful craftsmanship. And of course, in wine, it creates something that is this deeply expressive wine. But in skincare, we do it all to create these incredibly performance driven nutritional formulas. And so it was a reaction to what existed in the market and the quality that I just didn't feel like was there. And ultimately how that drives performance at the end of the day.
- [05:23]
Michael Boudreau
So you were your own guinea pig. You tested all these products on your own skin?
- [05:27]
April Gargiulo
Oh, yeah. I mean, I still am. Yes, yes. And friends and family, whoever I.
- [05:31]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Can anyone?
- [05:31]
Michael Boudreau
Rope them in. Rope em in. Great. And Rebecca, what about you? I know you were started as a magazine editor, something we had in common. So what made you decide that you were going to bring something? You know, fashion, as we know, hugely tough business.
- [05:45]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
So I definitely. I mean, I didn't have an intention when I first started Love Shack Fancy of really building. I mean, I feel like the word brand didn't even exist, to be honest. That 10 years ago, I feel like it was just, okay, you're launching a little business or a little company. And so I had designed my bridesmaids dresses for my wedding. I was at Cosmopolitan for about seven years, and then I was at Glamour before and interned at every single magazine before that. And so I loved storytelling, I loved fashion, I loved travel, culture, and just the whole world of it. And so when I designed this bridesmaid dress, it was very much like the full picture of it all. So it went with the wedding, and it went with the flowers, and it went with the mood and the vibe and the energy. And so I started selling these dresses at trunk shows out in the Hamptons. And then I would make 50 to 100. They would sell out, I would make more. And so I just slowly started to do this as a side project. And then when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I decided, you know what, why don't I just try to do this as a business and see what happens? And then I'll freelance style and I'll do all these things, but at least it will be my own. And I work like 24 hours a day, basically, so maybe I should try something working for myself. And so I did. And then I put the first collection together while I was pregnant, launched it when I had Scarlet, who's now 10 and honestly just learned the business. I had no idea about the business of fashion or what I was getting myself into at all. And that's when the world started to change a bit in terms of department stores, in terms of designers. There was much more opportunity for smaller brands, who I had always loved to support as an editor and a stylist.
- [07:25]
Michael Boudreau
Like, yeah, because retail has changed so much in the past 15 years.
- [07:30]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Yeah, retail has changed. And so I just wanted to be that kind of new, inspiring, younger brand and said, you Know, I would never sell to a department store. I would never fall into the cycle of, like, full fashion. I would only make 10 styles, and that was it.
- [07:44]
Michael Boudreau
Famous last words, right?
- [07:46]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Yeah, famous last words. Then I started to learn how you actually, like, make money and how you do all this. And then as years continued, I started a wholesale business. Then my dream was to one day have our own store so I could tell my own story. And I'm a huge vintage furniture, clothing, everything I source on my own. So it really was me being able to tell the story and the world and be able to walk in and feel like this escape and mix in travel and fashion and all of it together. So that's sort of my story.
- [08:15]
Michael Boudreau
Charlotte, your mother was an interior designer, correct?
- [08:19]
Charlotte Lucas
That's right.
- [08:20]
Michael Boudreau
So did you know from an early age you wanted to go into that, or were you one of those rebellious teenagers that, ugh, I don't want to ever do anything my mother does. But then you came around to it. How did that happen?
- [08:31]
Charlotte Lucas
No, quite the opposite. I knew exactly what I wanted to do when I was younger, and my mother was so hands on with me. We moved around every two to three years because of my father's work. And so my mom was tasked of making a house, a home, every three years for three girls. And so she helped us establish what that meant and so what that meant personally to my sisters and I. So she was very hands on with us about what wanted our bedrooms to look like and feel like. And so I knew I wanted to be an interior designer. I went to design school at the University of Georgia and worked for many very talented and very wonderful designers for a little over a decade, and then got pregnant with my first daughter and just kind of decided to step back for a moment. And I thought that I would give motherhood a shot. So similar to Rebecca, it was unintentional of how I began my business. So I had my daughter, which was 10 years ago, and she. I found myself at home with her in the crib, sleeping, and I was bored out of my mind. And I'm a worker bee and I need to stay busy and I want to have my hands in projects and activities. And so a friend asked me to help her with a house that she and her husband had just bought. And so I immediately accepted that offer, kind of a set up a studio in my guest bedroom and worked all day and all night when my daughter was asleep. So that was kind of the beginning. I had my son about a year later and started getting more questions and requests for clients. And so kind of I joke that I had three babies in the course of two years, and they all kind of grew separately in different ways. So the balance from the past decade is really figuring out how to balance all of that as they grow and as they grow individually and their needs require different parts of you. So it's been a wonderful journey. And now we have a great studio. We have got seven people here in our office, We've got projects all over the country, and we're just really excited to be designing beautiful homes.
- [10:36]
Michael Boudreau
Great. Now, Ana, I wanted to ask you because the tech world is not exactly open to women. And I mean, I know you were working with Greg, your husband, but Greg's experience was really in travel websites. So how did it come about that you created Cherish, that you realized that there was a market online that wasn't being hit for vintage pieces? And I mean, there are other sites who shall remain nameless that do sell antiques and vintage goods. But, you know, you obviously sensed there was a hole. How did this happen?
- [11:06]
Ana Brockway
Yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of the other gals I've spoken to, it came from personal experience. So I had my own path of having lots of kids really fast moving from house to house to accommodate a growing family and just learning firsthand how hard that is to decorate and redecorate. You know, where do you find things quickly that are beautiful and one of a kind and unique? And then also what do you do with the stuff that you bought the last time? So, I mean, I confess to being a bit of a compulsive shopper. And so the idea behind Cherish was a little bit how I could actually sell my stuff and then also get new things. And so just having tried what the alternatives were, I didn't feel that there was anything that felt right for me. I mean, there was either ebay, which was very self service, couldn't help you with shipping, really uncurated, you had to dig for hours. There was real retail where I was driving around with my kids in the back of the car, like looking at stuff which was bananas. And you don't really get a full selection. You only see what's close by and people are crying in stores and, you know, it's just not a good scene. And then the other options that were online at the time were really, really expensive and also very much designed only for the trade, only for designers, which I was not. And so it just felt like there was something in the middle. And that's really what inspired the launch of Cherish, which really started as me essentially selling my own things online in a souped up website that, yeah, we built in our dining room. So that's how it started. 10 years.
- [12:43]
April Gargiulo
I must have been one of the very first people to sell on Cherish.
- [12:46]
Ana Brockway
I'm happy to say I have three very good customers on this call. So thank you, ladies.
- [12:51]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Oh my gosh.
- [12:53]
Michael Boudreau
All four of your businesses really are so personal, you know, and you and your friends and your kids and kids, of course, are a wonderful motivator to, you know, either work for them, spend time with them, or get away from them, depending on the day. So I feel that that's probably one reason that you guys have all been so successful is because you are fully vested in what you do. And, you know, I think that something is more abstract or you're an investor, that kind of thing. You know, things. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but things can fail. But if it's your life and your business is an expression of who you are and what you do, I think it's sort of interesting to me that I think that is a strong, probably hidden factor in your success. But I want to ask a more specific question, Rebecca. Why don't we start with you. Which was harder in a way before you launched and became an official business? The year before you launched or the year after? You know, I know in the magazine business, you get the first issue out and you're all excited, but then, oh my God, their second issue's on its way and you have much less of a deadline.
- [13:57]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
I mean, for me, honestly, I had no idea, like when I say I have no idea what I was getting myself into, the two of us, I guess, Charlotte, you and I had babies at the same time. I had two. Love Shark, Fancy and Scarlet.
- [14:09]
April Gargiulo
And by the way, I have a 9 and 11 year old.
- [14:12]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, so very similar.
- [14:14]
Charlotte Lucas
So we all have the same kids.
- [14:16]
April Gargiulo
They're all basically the same.
- [14:18]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Yeah, so we're the same. My delivery did not go as I had expected. I was just after basically what from September through June of working to build everything, you know, I started to work with the sales showroom, put together the first little collection and then didn't even know how once I had sold all of the, you know, we started to sell to great stores like Shopbop and Calypso at the time and Bergdorf's even. I didn't even know the part about how ones produce then to ship to get to there and didn't even realize that all this was happening at the same time that I was literally having a baby. So to me, the hardest part was afterwards. And then I did this, what I thought was a little collaboration with Goop Gwyneth Paltrow to do a few capsule dresses. And then I had all this traffic to my website, which was almost non functioning. And then I had to work with all these wholesalers and deal with all of the returns of things that didn't sell. And my husband was sitting up doing Excel with me. I'm not a numbers person. I'm totally very creative. And so he would come home from work and he would help me do the Excel spreadsheets and like, figure out. So that first year was very much like, am I going to really do this? Am I not learning to understand the balance and like, also feel like I could have my voice? Because for me, it was challenging at the time. Fashion was very modern, strong primary colors. It was, you know, and many people had said, okay, well, we love the idea of love shack fancy, but I feel like this trend has had its time and it doesn't look like it's coming back anytime soon. But we love the idea maybe if you would switch these colors or if you would switch into these kinds of styles or if it would be more structured. And I was like, but that's not my aesthetic and that's not who I am. And what I feel I want to put out there into the world. So I felt a bit intimidated to be like, am I going to make the right decision to continue with what I feel is the right thing to do because it's my vision, or am I going to listen to now these wholesalers? And as I said before, I was determined to not fall into this, like crazy fashion cycle of overproduction and over sampling and over all of these things. And because I do love vintage so much, and that really became such an inspiration and where every piece always ends up starting. It was something that I was trying to figure out in the beginning. Oh, can I use upcycling? You know, before even upcycling was a word. Can I take vintage pieces? Can I remake them? Can I take pieces that haven't sold and remake them and resell them meanwhile? Now it would have been a great idea to pitch to all these department stores, like it's a sustainable, love shark fancy program of the pieces that didn't sell. But so for me, it was very difficult the year after because it was all more fun and games before I actually really launched the business and had to really start to Dive into, understand.
- [17:11]
Michael Boudreau
And April, what about you? I mean, you'd figured out these products, they worked for you, which was harder.
- [17:16]
April Gargiulo
Well, it's interesting because Rebecca's story is really resonating for me on so many levels. So I created a single product, which especially 10 years ago, was completely unheard of. No retailers understood what to do with a single product. They didn't understand how to merchandise it. They didn't understand how to talk about it within the context of a skincare routine, which at the time was like, people were all about a 15 to 20 step skincare routine. It was like, the more steps, the closer to God you are. Oh, my God. And I had this idea of like, how do I create better products so that you can use fewer. Right. But ironically, my idea of a good time is not to hang out in the bathroom and put products on my face, you know, and so I wanted fewer products that did more. And also, interestingly, Rebecca, Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop was also a huge early.
- [18:07]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Oh, that's so funny.
- [18:08]
April Gargiulo
Help for us. She discovered our products, I think, through a makeup artist and started writing about them. And like you, my website would shut down every time Goop would talk about it. Crazy. So it was that. It was an into the gloss piece that called our first product the Face oil to end all face oils. And once we kind of had that support, retailers started to understand what this crazy idea that I had about fewer can actually be better. And so things became easier, but for sure, after launch was harder. I mean, pre launch, you're all naive and, oh, everything's going to be great. And I'm doing this incredible thing and everyone's going to fall in love with it. It's going to, you know, it's so clear to you. And then once you're out in the world, it is not always so clear to everyone else, especially if you're trying to do something that is pretty radical in the context of the larger marketplace.
- [18:55]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
It was that first moment when then you had to put yourself out there. And then you realized also that you also have to sell yourself and you have to sell this, you know, and so it's a crazy feeling when I think back to it, about our people. Like, you don't think that anyone's not going to like it. And so because you love it. And so you obviously feel so proud of this world product vision, brand that you've created. And so then it's like the judgments, you know, and then these things. And so you have to sort of also, I think the hard part is, like, to filter out the noise and to just stay true, because that can get so confusing sometimes, you know, and intimidating.
- [19:33]
Michael Boudreau
And, Charlotte, you worked with designers, and you took your hiatus, and you had your children. So was it really scary when you decided, you know what, I'm gonna hang up my shingle. Which was worse, deciding you wanted to do it or once you'd opened your business?
- [19:46]
Charlotte Lucas
No, the deciding to do it was very easy, and it felt very organic for me, which was wonderful. And I usually make all my decisions that way of just what feels it was as I kind of touched on before, just the aftermath of doing it. And then, okay, I've just started this business, and I also just had two kids, and so now everyone needs me in so many different ways. So my children needed me, my business needed me, and then I immediately realized I needed a lot of help. So one of the things I'm really good at is outsourcing. So immediately hired, you know, a nanny to help with the kids and hired my first employee and then realized, you know, like, as Rebecca saying, she's not a numbers person, neither am I. And so I wasn't even going to try and task myself with the accounting and finances of the business, so immediately hired somebody that could do the invoicing and kind of keep track of the finances for the business. So it was really a matter of kind of putting the people in place and kind of getting operations set up. And I also did not go to business school, so running a business did not come naturally to me. And I think that's one of the hardest things now, 11 years later, is that I'm running a business. And I went to design school, so I do. So sometimes I sit at my desk and I'm like, what am I doing all day? You know, I do need a lot of that creative relief, and it's so wonderful to get it. And I am surrounded by creative people doing creative things all day. But I found myself kind of in the lane of running the business a lot. So I think that's something that has. I've definitely struggled with and trying to balance that and remain in a creative, creative space as far as, you know, what my clients are hiring me to do.
- [21:28]
Michael Boudreau
And, Ana, what about you at Cherish the year planning and launching or the year after?
- [21:33]
Ana Brockway
I think for me, actually making the decision to launch the business was actually the hardest part. I think for me, I had. My kids were a little older. I had three kids already, and I knew how much time it took for me to be the kind of mom I wanted to be. And I also had had a long career in fashion and working for a big company and sort of knew what would be required to really get this going. And I also have to say because I hadn't worked for a while, I was a stay at home mom for about 10 years before we launched Cherish. I was also very self conscious about going out, putting my name on something, kind of swinging for the fences. It felt very public. I was afraid. And then also doing it with my husband as my partner, I mean that's a whole nother level.
- [22:20]
Michael Boudreau
That's a stress on a marriage, I would think.
- [22:23]
Ana Brockway
Totally. And I mean, it's really funny. I'm close friends with a couple who I've known well, I've known Kevin and Julia Hartz who were the founders of Eventbrite. They're a married couple. They started Eventbrite while they were dating. And I've known Kevin since I was a little kid. And I remember calling them and saying like, I need your advice. How do you do this? Because scary starting something with your husband. And so I think for me just kind of pushing through all that and saying, nobody's paying that much attention anyways to whether or not I win or lose on this. Let's just give it a go and see what happens here. Coming to some agreements with Greg about how we were going to work together before we started working together, I think.
- [23:02]
Michael Boudreau
That was probably very smart.
- [23:03]
Ana Brockway
Yeah, well, that was one of the pieces of advice Kevin and Julia gave me. But getting that like going and anyway, so for me, just like actually putting the flag in the ground to start something I think was the harder part. And then once it starts, all of the wheels start turning and you start thinking of different ways of growing the business and you learn and what you thought you were going to do, you're not going to do. But it's all kind of rooted in business intelligence that you're getting real time in the operating versus the upfront. You're like, I don't know, it's a big leap. And so for me, that was a little scary, that risk taking.
- [23:33]
Michael Boudreau
I can imagine. Okay, I want to talk about some of the challenges. Like I, I would assume none of you experience any sexism whatsoever in launching your fashion, beauty. They're all male centric, you know, they're all male run businesses. Right. So where was the greatest pushback? Was it from bankers? Was it from colleagues, peers? What was something that really sort of surprised the extent of it surprised you?
- [23:59]
Charlotte Lucas
I think initially I received a lot of wonderful support from the community at whole and friends. I think it's a little bit more interesting for me because I worked work so closely with spouses for their home. And so I become really like interconnected in their finances, in their personal life, in their marriage and how they live at home. And so I think for me, a lot of times maybe a woman would come in and she would reach out and want to hire me to do her house and we'd have all these conversations and get started and then she has not told her husband a fraction of what we have spoken about. And then he's kind of, you know, knocking on my door wondering what this invoice is for. So I think it was a little bit of a live and learn with couples and how to navigate certain relationships. And so now going forward, you know, we include the husband and the wife. There's a contract that we send out. You know, everything's very clear. We talk about budget up front. And I'd rather have those really hard conversations with the husband before we even get started. And so the process can be enjoyable because it should. I mean, designing your home should be fun. Hiring designers should be a wonderful experience. So we've really learned from, from that just making sure that the husband and wife team are on the same page. And we are all kind of seeing the same font as we start to move forward into the project.
- [25:24]
Michael Boudreau
Right. And April, you had said that retailers didn't know how to market your product. So what was the biggest risk? Were there people who just said, forget it, this is never going to work. You have to have, you know, 36 fragrances and four deodorants and, you know, all that stuff 100%.
- [25:39]
April Gargiulo
But, oh, they went as far as to tell me, oh, you already have your Nero product. Other products don't even matter. Just slap a label on it. It doesn't matter because the majority of skincare is made out of very few labs, the same exact formulas. Maybe they tweak a scent or they treat one small piece, but they're kind of off the shelf formulas that get purchased. And so they assumed that's what I was doing. And in fact, we're doing something very, very different. I mean, for me, it was about again, this winemaking philosophy coming to beauty and sense. So we don't take shortcuts, we don't cut corners. We're not using synthetics or extracts or powders. We're starting with whole plants. And so, you know, every bottle of Inner's daughter takes between three and five weeks to make which is something like 70% slower than, or 70 times slower than the average beauty product. So, I mean, yes, I was. I was encouraged to make the junkiest, grossest product. And they would say, oh, it doesn't matter, just slap a label on it. You are, you know, what have you.
- [26:36]
Michael Boudreau
Pretty bottle that'll sell it.
- [26:38]
April Gargiulo
Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean, I can remember talking to my dad about wine and kind of at the time, we make wines that are much more kind of like balanced or old world style or whatever you want to say. And I remember asking him at the time when it was all about these big, juicy cherry, big oak wines. And I remember asking him, like, why don't we do that? You know, because it's pretty easy to manipulate wine on the inside. And he was like, april, because if nobody buys these wines, like, I have to drink them, so I'm only making the best. I mean, like, I remember him telling me this, right, that's so great. And so then I remember being kind of like poised, like with the same decision in front of me. And I was like, well, I can't do that because if nobody buys this, I gotta use it. And I'm only using the best skincare. Like, it's not, you know, so that was literally what was like, you know, I was lucky. I always say that I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. And I really do feel like that Napa Valley really has allowed me to be so really, like, very disciplined about our mission.
- [27:30]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, no, Rebecca, the fashion industry is a. Everybody acknowledges as a very loving and supportive and wonderful business. So what were your experiences like? You know, everything from anything from bankers to, you know, showroom people. Tell us a little about some of the challenges you faced.
- [27:46]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Well, I'm lucky enough to work basically my entire life with mostly all women from magazines. Like, I mean, I maybe have worked with. Well, now my husband also does work with me and he's been amazing, like, really pushing opening. He's in a real estate background. He's a developer. So in terms of all the stores and finding the opportunities.
- [28:05]
Michael Boudreau
Oh, yeah, that's great.
- [28:06]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
So, you know, that all started during COVID for the most part, besides when he was helping me crunch numbers from the beginning. But I think, you know, so. And really, I've always been surrounded in both magazines and now at Love Shack Fancy with predominantly with women, like, challenges. In the beginning, when I had a sales showroom, there was, you know, it was male owned. And that was challenging because I was still trying to discover my voice and my style. And it wasn't like, let me help you. It wasn't let me help you. You know, it was just like, okay, this is what you have. What do you have for me? That's it. That's not gonna work. This is what. And I never really got the full story of what was then going to happen with when the department stores then don't like the product that they are. Your similar thing. Like, Calypso had asked me to do one of my star Jacquard prints in their bestselling style. And I had said, well, I hate this style. It's never gonna sell. It's definitely not gonna sell to the girl who wants Love Shack Fancy. And they said, I promise you it will. It's our best selling style. Of course, we made hundreds of them. I saw the order that came in and what happens, they don't sell it, you know, and then who's stuck with it? Me. So I learned, unfortunately in the beginning the harder way. And I think it was, you know, so then that was one of the steps where after three years, I then took sales in house. And then I started to really build a team for me. I learned more from maybe experiences and situations where I felt I could have used much more leadership as opposed to and like, trying to think I could do it all myself or have a consultant to help sometimes, not others, because I didn't have the budget necessarily to pay for who I would want it to hire. But. And then when we just launched fragrance, actually when we started interviewing different companies to work with, we're not working with the licensee, which everyone seems like totally shocked by. But again, like, I think we waited for so long to do fragrance because I really felt it had to be so authentic and true to myself and to the vision of what I wanted Love Shack Fancy fragrance to be like. So for so many years, everyone had been asking, oh, you should do this, you should do it. But again, fragrance in that world licensing company is run by all the suits behind, and you go in and you don't really have a choice or much of a say. It's just a licensing situation. So so far it's been very successful. And we started working with Sephora, and so we launched with Sephora and we've been able to work with them to get more of an insider's understanding of what does work. And they're mostly all women as well. So now I have my husband and he's like, thank gosh, you have me because I can deal with you, but I'm gonna be tough so I've learned to basically surround myself with mostly all women. And by the way, the beauty industry so far seems so much nicer than the fashion industry. I can't even believe it.
- [30:53]
Michael Boudreau
I think any industry is nicer than the fashion, I'll tell you that.
- [30:57]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
I know, right? Never. I'm like, oh my gosh, everyone wants to lift each other up and talk to each other. This is amazing.
- [31:03]
Michael Boudreau
Right? Right.
- [31:04]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
So nice right now, Ana.
- [31:06]
Michael Boudreau
It was no small feat and I'm sure it wasn't inexpensive to set up the website for Cherish to set, you know, get the distribution going. So did you have to go to venture capitalists, banks? What was that process like? I mean I'm sure it was fascinating.
- [31:21]
Ana Brockway
But yeah, that's one word for it. So the first year we actually bootstrapped it. So Greg and I started the company. We quickly brought on two friends and colleagues, one of whom is our CTO Andy, and we basically kind of hacked a Shopify site. This is in the early days of Shopify, by the way, together to get just something out like what the tech industry calls an MVP minimum viable product. Just to see what would happen kind of as a test. And so that's what we launched with and used for the first year as we really learned about the business model and what worked and what didn't. And then we went out and we started raising money through the VC community. And suffice it to say, first off, I'm super proud. Rebecca, congratulations on Love Shack Fancy being such a women powered businesses. I think probably all of ours are Cherishes too. It's the rare tech company, I think that's, you know, depending on the day, anywhere from 75 to 80% lady run. So it's really nice to be able to say that because it's uncommon, particularly in tech. But the venture capital community is notoriously not. There's almost never did I walk into a room and present my idea to someone who looked like my consumer. And so funny things that happened were, let me go call my wife and see if she's heard of it. Let me ask some of the ladies in the office and they would like call the lady who sat at the front desk and have her come in and say if she liked it. I mean it was just so odd that here's these people who are controlling all of this money into businesses that most, you know, in consumer tech, most of at least 50% and in commerce more than 50% of your audience are women. And yet none of the investors are or very few. So that was a crazy experience. The other thing that I have always found is kind of interesting is Craig and I are co founders and we have a family together. And yet whenever I'm doing press or interviews, I'm always the one who gets asked about balance and family and.
- [33:22]
April Gargiulo
Oh, I knew that's what you were going to say.
- [33:24]
Ana Brockway
Oh, yeah, I knew it. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone's, how are you about to. And it's a super fair. Like, I understand why people are curious about it, but it's like, I don't know, Ask Greg. He has three kids, too, because they don't balance.
- [33:36]
April Gargiulo
Yeah, they never asked the guy. They never asked the guy that question. Ana. I actually say that whenever anyone asks me that question, I'm like, fair question. And I hope that you're asking every man that you interview the exact same question.
- [33:47]
Ana Brockway
Yeah.
- [33:47]
Charlotte Lucas
And I always say, too, that if you want anything done, have a working mother do it, because they will get it done.
- [33:52]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Oh, my God. It's like, so.
- [33:54]
Ana Brockway
Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say, all in all, there's ways subtle and not so subtle that you come across it, but it's definitely there.
- [34:02]
Michael Boudreau
I'm sure a lot of it's not so subtle. Each of you, what do you think a was your smartest move early on or even recently? What has been your smartest move? And what was your biggest mistake that you've made in terms of business? Not in terms of your vision, your success of your business, which is very personal and founded on what your passions and what you love to do, but in terms of business, what was your. Your smartest move and your biggest mistake? April, why don't we start with you?
- [34:29]
April Gargiulo
Oh, gosh. Okay. I mean, I think I have probably made a lot of mistakes, so the mistake and the smartest thing are probably both reflective of the same thing. And it all has to do with team. There were times when I just didn't focus a lot on team and kind of hire whoever walked in the door. And then I started to realize, okay, you know what? I can have the most incredible strategy on earth, and if I don't have the most incredible team to make it happen, that's not going to happen. So I think, think once I kind of, like, shifted and really started to be much more intentional about team, and I still mess, you know, whatever. You don't ever get it all perfect, obviously. But I think that shift was something.
- [35:04]
Michael Boudreau
That I think hiring the right people is probably the hardest thing.
- [35:06]
April Gargiulo
It's really hard.
- [35:07]
Michael Boudreau
You have to do As a manager, I think finding the right people, it's, you know, and I've hired some best people ever and I've hired a few, like, what the heck?
- [35:19]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
It's like everything, you know.
- [35:22]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, what about you, Rebecca?
- [35:24]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
I mean, I would say the same. I would say hiring, you know, just really incredible leaders because I am the creative, the visionary and I have more ideas than life itself and too many ideas and too many, you know, so really having a very well rounded. And now I finally have like quite a senior leadership team, which I never did before. I had had like a bunch of early 20 year olds running around the office and I had almost no managers. So I think building that kind of structure and really finding the right leaders to help me carry out my vision and to help teach me and to help educate me and have the business grow because there's only so much that I can possibly do. And then for sure that. And then I would say also. So for me, the most like pivotal moment was opening my first store in Sag harbor, which I did five years ago when everyone told me not to. Retail's dead. Don't ever make this mistake.
- [36:25]
April Gargiulo
Meanwhile. Meanwhile, you're like having the last laugh now.
- [36:29]
Charlotte Lucas
Meanwhile.
- [36:29]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
So that was really something. And so we opened the doors and it was just like generations of girls, women, like all of these incredible customers. But I had no idea how to run the store, do the rest of it. So that comes later after the fact. But I think that was the most important decision I made in terms of following my gut because I really was so frustrated with just seeing like a few different dresses on a few racks at like Sacks or Intermix and it didn't tell the story. And I had such a strong vision and the only way to really be able to show that was in a real place where you could walk in and you could be immersed into the world of love, shack, fancy. And the biggest mistake, I have to say still was listening to those, those wholesalers, the names remain anonymous and taking back all these returns that like left me with a million sleepless nights. And I almost was gonna have to either close the business or continue on and then figure out then it's the whole like you have to off price, you have to. It's a whole slippery slope after that. But anyway, listening to them and not following my gut, which is always usually right and I would say was the biggest mistake. But then I ended up learning from it, so. Biggest mistake and then be able to work from.
- [37:43]
April Gargiulo
Rebecca, I love hearing you talk about a physical shop. I'M like, where you. I'm right now. I am where you were five years ago.
- [37:50]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Okay, we'll talk.
- [37:51]
April Gargiulo
And Ana knows I want her to open up a shop so badly.
- [37:55]
Charlotte Lucas
Oh, yeah, that would be amazing. I do, too.
- [37:58]
Michael Boudreau
Okay. Charlotte, what about you?
- [38:00]
Charlotte Lucas
I think kind of that common theme is that, you know, surrounding yourself with the right people. And I would say that's one of the most important things throughout the roller coaster of a ride that it's been is finding the right people and making sure that they become almost like family. I mean, you spend more time or I spend more time with my work family sometimes than I do with my children. And so it's really important for me who is here in the office with us. And that kind of piggybacks to continuing to surround myself with important people. My sister and I went into business together five years ago, and we created a fabric and wallpaper company. And she's also a designer, an interior designer. She did go to business school, and so we both found ourselves in the interior design world. I was. Went to business school. I went to design school. She went to business school. And we were constantly consulting with each other, like, weekly. She would call me and have design questions. I'd call her and have business questions, and we were like, gosh, I wish we could, you know, somehow figure out a way to work together. And so five years ago, we did, and we were like, this is an organic branch off of our business and kind of creating a brain end similar to, you know, Rebecca in April and a physical product. And also kind of knowing that as a designer, what is out there or what is kind of missing in the marketplace that we, as a designer, want, similar to what Ana was mentioning, you know, we felt like there was a niche that needed to be filled. So that was one of the best things that I've done recently. And I think the worst things that I've done are, you know, not listening to myself and, you know, seeing red flags, but not not paying attention to them. Because the one thing I've learned from that is those red flags never go away. They just continue to get worse. So to be able to eliminate those, whether it's a situation, whether it's a collaboration that you're not really aligned with that seems kind of tempting, or just a client that, you know, seems really exciting and they have a beautiful project, but they're just not, you know, it's not the right match for you. Becomes kind of like a marriage for a couple years. So not listening to my gut in situations like that is where I've gotten myself into, and I try to do better each time.
- [40:11]
Michael Boudreau
And, Ana, you've never made a mistake with Cherish, is that correct?
- [40:15]
Ana Brockway
Where do I start, dude? No, I think the things that I've gone, right, I mean, similar to what other people have said, is like, really listening to what seems like the right choice for you, even in the face of opposing opinions otherwise, which there's no shortage of. So for us, that looked like, you know, in the tech world, and when you're starting a marketplace like we were or are, the more supply the better, right? Like, in order to have a store, you need stuff on the shelves. And so there was a lot of pressure on us in the early days to kind of take everything that was submitted to us as inventory and not have a curatorial point of view, because that's how you get to scale faster, is you have more and more stuff. And I felt really strongly that that was the wrong thing to do and that we should have have a high expectation level around the quality of the merchandise we were taking, and that it had to be sort of lovingly curated and edited to create a different experience that was more sophisticated and more premium than what you find anywhere else. To have kind of an editorial point of view in a marketplace, from a investor and often tech perspective is it's a speed bump. It slows you down. It's a governor. And so. So I had to really advocate for that point of view, and I'm glad I did, because I think over time, what Cherish has become is a brand that's trusted for its edit and for its curation and its point of view. And most marketplaces aren't like that. And that's what makes us different and, I think, special. So it's an example of a place where you really have to stand up for what you believe in. And then on the flip side, it's a really dangerous thing because there's also been times where I haven't done that. And similar to what Charlotte was saying, you sort of always live to regret those moments where you're like, everyone's telling me this is the fastest way to get a feature or a function or some sort of special thing out on the site is if we skip these three things and we'll add them later, and then that product will come out a feature on the site. And you're just looking at it and you're like, this is so sucks. Like, it's not at all what I thought. And they left all the good part out. And, you know, the Flip side of it is when you don't do that, that it's just something that haunts you. Like it has to be fixed immediately. And you learn to go back to the beginning principle, which was to trust your instincts and stand up for what you believe in, which is there's a lot of persuasive arguments otherwise that it's easy to lose that at times.
- [42:43]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, I'm sure now you know, you have all survived and thrived for 10 years, which is a fantastic milestone and congratulations to all of you. But now you have to. You know, sustaining success is as hard as achieving success as we know. And I know you all want to expand your audience, expand your brands, and God knows marketing and retailing have changed so much in the last decade since you launched, traditional media has shrunk. Social media has become so huge. So how do you see promoting reaching new audiences, expanding your clientele? How are you planning to do that? How do you think about it? Let's start with you, April.
- [43:25]
April Gargiulo
Oh, gosh, I don't know if I'm the right person. I also have what to say. I cannot wait to hear what everyone else has to say. To your point, it's all changed, right? I mean, it's, it's like radically different and everything that used to work doesn't work and just goes dead. It's all not working. So the reality is that Vitner's daughter has grown. I always say we've grown G to g, girlfriend to girlfriend. And, and ultimately it is this kind of like, you know, I'm going to tell my friend, they're going to tell their friend or your sister or your mom or what have you. And so to find more opportunities for that. I mean, even social media started out as that, right? And so to find more opportunities for that is what we are focused on. Those moments that whether maybe it is literally a person to person, but where are those opportunities to amplify that moment as well? So that's what we're thinking about.
- [44:14]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, I have one suggestion for you.
- [44:16]
April Gargiulo
Let's hear it.
- [44:17]
Michael Boudreau
Start a men's line.
- [44:18]
April Gargiulo
I actually secretly think we have tons of men because we get emails all the time from women who are like, if my husband takes us one more.
- [44:26]
Charlotte Lucas
Time, we're gonna get divorced.
- [44:27]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Oh my God, so funny.
- [44:29]
Michael Boudreau
Make it an open secret, you know, reach out to them.
- [44:32]
April Gargiulo
Okay, thank you.
- [44:34]
Michael Boudreau
Rebecca, what about you? What are you thinking about? How do you continue to get your message out and make it louder?
- [44:39]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
I mean, for us, we have the last like five years. I wanna say we've been doing all these different collaborations, you know, so everything from Target to Gap on the bigger scale to Pottery Barn, we do, you know, which is inspired by my love of vintage, you know, and antique furniture. And because every piece in the store is unique and sourced to like sneakers, Superga Bogner ski wear. I mean, there's just so many different things. We've just launched our own fragrance. So in terms of that world of going into the beauty space, I think that fragrance definitely Love Shack fans see beauty is for sure here to stay. I see what's going on through the girls in the office. Through my own daughters with beauty, I learn from all of our customers. I'm very, very engaged with our social media network, with our Instagram Pinterest TikTok. Like, so there's, you know, and because Love Shack Fancy really does span so many different generations. So, you know, leaning in and following and learning and seeing what these trends are and what the new preppy is and what the. So I'm constantly like, we have all these fun collaborations coming, coming out soon that are for like a younger, like more TikTok savvy. I'm not gonna say exactly what, but that's because if I listen to my daughters one more time say, mom, we really need to do this, it would be so much fun, you know, great. Then we'll go like more high end. Then we'll do different things. So I think in terms of always learning, like what feels first of all like fun and inspiring and different and gives our audience something that feels a bit unexpected and it's playful and just, you know, outside the box, whether it's something for me, something for my daughter, something for friends that are, you know, saying they would love to see this. Like, everyone's at, when are you gonna do men's? Men's. Men's. Like, we just started to do a little bit with our gap collaboration we did for the whole family. So thinking in terms of that and then really like social media is like, you can't avoid it. It like has to be your best friend. And TikTok is now basically like a search engine for all these young girls customers. So like they don't even use Google. They just use TikTok to search like the best nail salon in their area or whatever. Like that's what they live by. So understanding what that world looks like and seeing how it works for your own brand, of course, but then not feeling too like you can't take it too far because you have to know that that can go in and out and be so trend based and we're, you know, obviously I feel like all of us are very more of like, also timeless and we're also, we don't want something to just be, be a quick little moment. So I think there's just a balance between all of that really, and understanding who you're speaking to when you're speaking to them, you know, and then also understanding that I love the like, friend to friend thing too, because it really is very much like, oh, now that we have, you know, all this beautiful elevated design pieces, it's harder to market that because those customers aren't on TikTok and they're not as much on Instagram. Maybe there are some on Facebook, but like they're going into our store and they're seeing that they felt like that they couldn't find enough to wear for themselves. They were shopping for their daughters, but they wanted to wear love shack fancy. So then we started designing for that more mature, elevated customer. So I think it's really about just understanding the different ages of customers.
- [47:53]
Michael Boudreau
And Charlotte, you said you've expanded into wallpaper and fabrics, but how do you keep your business going in terms of clientele? Do you get customers, clients rather from Instagram? How does that work for you? How are you thinking of expanding? Or maybe you're not thinking of expanding, you just want to continue and be, you know, successful?
- [48:12]
Charlotte Lucas
You know, that's a great question. I think that Instagram is one of our best friends. And I think that, you know, it's a free tool, which is amazing to have. I think that's a massive part of our business. But I think that a lot of people get carried away what they see and are posting on Instagram and it's a fake world. And I think that for us as designers, you know, we're not creating a product, we're creating an experience almost. I mean, we're creating a home for a family. And those things are very real. And so it's almost so different. And so I think for me, the most important thing to continue to grow my business is the relationships that I have with my vendors, with my clients, with all of our contractors. And so I think that relationship is, you know, I mentioned before, kind of becomes like a marriage when you're working with clients over the course of two, three years on a project, depending on what it is, and for them to be in their home for the next 10 years, or it's for their forever home and they're entertaining and they're telling their friends and that kind of word of mouth, kind of friend to friend. Word of mouth is the most valuable tool we could have. And so I think that's really important for me. And I think that our clients come back to us to do second homes. They've also come back to us and approached us for doing a project for a business that they're associated with. And we've recently kind of got into some hospitality work and doing some boutique hotels, which is definitely a step of growth for our firm. And so it's all about that relationship though, in the very beginning and how that's fostered and keeping it. And I'm proud to say that all of my clients are, you know, long after their projects are done, are very dear friends. And so I think that's a really important and special piece of the business too.
- [50:01]
Michael Boudreau
Totally. And Ana, I know you've done some partnerships. You just expanded into vintage jewelry and handbags. You've worked with a lot of designers. You had the Bergdorf Art Gallery last January, which I believe is being repeated again. So how are you thinking about expanding the audience for Cherish?
- [50:19]
Ana Brockway
Yeah, I mean, I think we've spent a lot of time reflecting on what it is that makes the brand special and valued by people. And so a lot of it is rooted in the idea of kind of one of a kind being the ultimate luxury. Right. Like that is really, I think what makes our customer excited is the idea of kind of a one and only marketplace place. And our edit and our technology is all really based on that idea. And we've been able to attract over the past 10 years and build and cultivate really a community of people who care about that. And so when we think about where to go next, we think about those as kind of being our biggest assets to play with. So that's why things like jewelry start to make sense. And we're starting to do more and more with art, which has been a really important category for us. That's really the focus of our pop up with Bergdorfs, which we'll go back and do. And then I think increasingly one of the things that we get asked about are experiences. So one of a kind experiences. So I spend a lot of time traveling around the country, going to antique shows, going to flea markets, going to all kinds of locations where our inventory exists and our sellers exist. And a lot of people are really curious about that. I mean, that's something that we're really excited to start to think about because. Because we do get a lot of requests. Where can I come with you Here? Can we go here together. I'm curious about that. And so that's something we're starting to do and think about experiences. One of the really fun things that we're working on right now is a special cherished first ever hospitality destination which will be part of the Colony Hotel in Palm beach. And that's going to launch in January. So fun. Yeah, it's really been fun. Many people will know that Palm beach, and in particular West Palm beach, is one of the the best and most storied and kind of vintage hunting grounds in the world. And so the opportunity to work with all of our dealers there and really create a one of a kind bespoke experience for Cherish within the Colony. Yeah.
- [52:19]
April Gargiulo
Ana, that's so cool.
- [52:20]
Charlotte Lucas
That is so exciting. I can't wait to see it.
- [52:22]
Ana Brockway
So more to come on that I'm kind of breaking the news. I'm not sure gonna get yelled at by the PR team, but that's exciting. Yeah, it's gonna be really fun. So I think things like that are starting to be. Again, what are our assets? One of a kind, great curatorial edit, and a really sophisticated, cultured and curious shopper who loves us. And so how do we bring all that together, both within the home decorating space, but also beyond that? So that's what we're thinking about. The other thing is, I think, which we've all talked about here, is really careful listening to who your audience is and really getting out there and spending a lot of time with them. So I think I spend as, you know, a lot of time traveling. And when I do that, anytime I go to a city, I meet not just with our sellers, but I also meet with our buyers. And I'm not afraid to just call up people who I know place big orders with us and say, like, can I take you out for lunch? Or, you know, just really spending time hearing what they like, but even more importantly, what they don't like about what we're doing. And then from that, I think you're able to really discern who you are and what your value proposition is, essentially. And that becomes the building blocks and the jumping off place for a lot of other components. It's hard because there's so many tempting things and so many alleyways and opportunities to explore that are interesting. But I think you always have to take it back to, am I credible as a brand in that area and how can I do it better than who else is doing it and who is the enemy in that space and am I going to be able to Somehow provide something that's differentiated from what's already out there.
- [53:55]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, I wanna ask each of you one last question because this has been fascinating and it's been so interesting to me how personal and passionate your businesses are. You know, and I don't know if that's a. I mean, a lot of men are passionate about their business. I don't wanna say that they're not, but, you know, I think that your businesses came from your lives and your own personal passions. So what would be your one sentence of advice to anyone, but especially a woman who's thinking of starting her own business? What would be your slogan, motto, whatever, in brief, advice to someone. Rebecca, why don't we start with you?
- [54:30]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Mine would be to follow your gut and stay true to your vision. Don't let anyone steer you off course and really just stay true to yourself.
- [54:40]
Michael Boudreau
Great. April, what about you?
- [54:42]
April Gargiulo
I mean, exactly the same. Just follow it with, like, a lot of heart and a lot of hugs. Hustle.
- [54:49]
Michael Boudreau
Good advice, Charlotte.
- [54:50]
Charlotte Lucas
Ditto to Rebecca in April. And then in addition is just surround yourself with people that are good at things that you're not. So kind of balance, you know, with all of your qualities.
- [55:01]
Michael Boudreau
And Ana, we give you the last word.
- [55:03]
Ana Brockway
Well, all of that.
- [55:05]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
You can put all of them together and say it perfectly for us.
- [55:07]
Michael Boudreau
Now we're do a sampler.
- [55:09]
Ana Brockway
It's not original advice to me, but it's advice that is commonly repeated in the tech industry. I think it was Reid Hoffman who said it. I could be misattributing it, but it is. If you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you launch too late. And I always like to tell people that, because whatever you put out into the market, you're going to change and you're going to change it a lot, and you're going to evolve it and you're going to learn. And you have to get over waiting for perfect to arrive because it never will and you'll never get started. And so I think it's just really important to explain the humility that's gonna come with the process and to lean into that and give it a go.
- [55:50]
Charlotte Lucas
Well said.
- [55:51]
Michael Boudreau
That's fantastic.
- [55:52]
Ana Brockway
I love that.
- [55:53]
Michael Boudreau
So I really, I wanna thank my wonderful guests today. Rebecca Hessel Cohen, April Gargiulo, Charlotte Lucas, and Anna Brockway. I wanna congratulate them on their 10 years of success and we can't wait to see what the next 10 bring. So thank you all and thank everyone for. For listening to the Cherish podcast.
- [56:11]
Ana Brockway
Thanks, Michael.
- [56:12]
Charlotte Lucas
Thanks so much.
- [56:13]
Rebecca Hessel Cohen
Thank you so much.
- [56:18]
Michael Boudreau
You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Britter Muller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.