Loading summary
Transcript79 lines
- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is a Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry. At a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change, there is no question that interior design has always involved spending a client's money on items for their home. Which raises the question, should you take your client shopping with you? Does it open a can of worms? Does it perpetuate the idea that a designer is little more than a personal shopper? Is the romantic image of guiding a client through the flea markets of Paris, Portobello Road, or the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul merely a remnant of the past? Do clients even want to be involved? And what does shopping even mean today when so many items are purchased via the Internet? Is shopping now simply a matter of texting JPEGs back and forth? I'm pleased to have with me three designers from across the country who know the rewards and the pitfalls of shopping with clients. First up is Martha Mulholland. Martha, a Kentucky native, founded her Los Angeles firm in 2013. She draws on her knowledge of design history to create homes that mix a variety of styles and eras, everything from Victorian pieces to French 1940s designs, but with results that are always contemporary and chic. Hello, Martha.
- [01:40]
Martha Mulholland
Hi. How are you?
- [01:42]
Michael Boudreau
I'm good. Glad you're here. Halden Interiors, the Montclair, New Jersey based firm of designer Keisha Franklin, is known for its strong, well defined residences and and hospitality projects that mix clean lines with bold colors and enticing textures. Most recently, Keisha created a stunning room for this year's Kips Bay Show House that was an elegant, yet surprising ode to green. Welcome, Kesha.
- [02:06]
Keisha Franklin
Hello. Hi, Michael.
- [02:08]
Michael Boudreau
Finally, we have Katie Davis, a Houston based designer who updates traditional design with a soothing palette, unexpected fabrics and nature inspired patterns to create homes that are well thought out, functional, and always pretty. Hello, Katie.
- [02:23]
Katie Davis
Hi. Hi there.
- [02:24]
Michael Boudreau
I've talked about shopping with clients to many designers over the years, and I have to say it really does elicit a range of responses. And every designer has had tough clients, clients that are difficult and those obviously are not the ones you necessarily want to take shopping with you if you can avoid it. Some. I know some designers don't even want to share a cab with some of their clients. But when you have good clients or clients who are interested, is shopping something that you feel is part of the process? Because you know it is their money, it is their Home. So, Martha, why don't we start with you? What do you think?
- [02:58]
Martha Mulholland
Oh, I have a lot to say about this. I think, you know, I will caveat it all by saying that it depends entirely on the client and the relationship you have with them. I love shopping with some of my longtime repeat clients. It's kind of part of our process. And it's fun, you know, somebody that I actually enjoy spending time with, we make a day of it. They take me to lunch, I take them to lunch. We go to the showrooms. And it can be a really great and very efficient, I think, way to source and kind of quickly land a lot of objects versus, you know, trolling the Internet and, you know, trying to get all the specs from dealers and then trying to put it in AutoCAD and so on and so forth. It's like, let's go there, let's memo it, let's take it to the house. It can be great. I have other clients and this is often sort of like the dance with a new. A new client where, you know, it's helpful, I think, to get a feel for their style. If they don't really know exactly what they want or you're not sure how it's going to be to work with them, to physically go out and see things with them and kind of get inspired and, and see, you know, how they react to the process. And it can be a good way to kind of bond and also just sort of show them your world. You know, there's certain showrooms that I go to where I've been shopping for years. They know me. So it's kind of a fun experience for the client to be like, oh, I feel special or something. And then there's others where it's just like pulling teeth. The whole experience is very. They're kind of weird. They're not particularly social. They're not giving you a lot of enthusiasm or feedback. You're chewing your fist. Cause you're so hungry and don't want to stop to eat lunch with them because it means having to actually speak to them in a social context. Or you can tell that they're sort of shopping you. You know, they're going to come back and try to. They're clocking your resources. I try to vet clients, you know, before we get to this point, to make sure that they're not that type of person who's looking for a buddy or somebody to kind of validate their taste or, you know, try to get a trade discount out of or something. But you Never know. There are people that sort of slip through the cracks and I'll, you know, by sharing my sort of world with them, it's kind of opening up, it's giving them access to it. Also, I think it's easier with more like high end vendors going to showrooms and things like that to kind of navigate that relationship. But I would never take a client to a flea market, for instance. Like, that's off limits. That's my special time.
- [05:31]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, great. So, Kesha, Martha raises a good point about if you do take a client to the showrooms with you, whether fabric shopping, furniture shopping, whatever, there is information that they've gotten from you, basically your favorite sources. Has that ever been a problem with any of your clients that you feel that they're using you? Because, you know, one of my big bugaboos about design is people think that a designer is there to get you access to things, you know, which is such the wrong thing. And shopping with a client could be a danger. Has that ever happened to you?
- [06:05]
Keisha Franklin
No, it hasn't. Because a lot of my clients are actually like extremely busy and for them the process can be a bit overwhelming. So I've never been in that particular situation. I've definitely taken clients shopping and had two different experiences. One where, like Martha, it's been very exciting and rewarding. Particularly like she mentioned, those repeat clients. And those are the clients that I would tend to do that with because there's already a trust level there. I already kind of know their particular style and taste, they know who I am as a designer and kind of the level of work that I do. So there's a mutual understanding there. And then it can be a very enjoyable process and a quick one, like Martha said, because we're coming in and we're kind of hitting and getting to the ground point, right? And not kind of going through various options and design ideas and stuff. We already know what the direction is. However, I do agree that it can be a slippery slope when you bring a client and you do open them up to your world. Sometimes I think too much information is not good. I kind of like leaving a little bit of mystery to what I do because it keeps it exclusive, it keeps me in a bit of demand, and there's this kind of the expectation of getting something special that only I know about that I'm bringing to the table. So I tend to kind of lean on that end of the spectrum as opposed to always wanting to invite a client into my space. But yes, I think that with all the access that's out there, particularly on the Internet. And being able to then bring them into the design centers. I think they already have so much ability to shop you. It's kind of like, do I want to then bring them into that actual brick and mortar where they're getting an opportunity to not only see the items, but now have access to a sales rep or have access to being able to come in? Especially since now, like, in the dd once upon a time, I'm sure you all know here in New York, you couldn't access that building without a designer. Now, it is very much open to the public, especially if a client just mentions, oh, I work with Halden Interiors. Right. They. They're able to kind of browse around, and then, you know, so who wants that? Right. The last thing you want is for your client to come back and say, oh, I was having lunch on 3rd Avenue, and I just happened to stop in, and, you know, yeah, I was.
- [08:54]
Michael Boudreau
Wandering around, and lo and behold, right, right.
- [08:57]
Keisha Franklin
I ended up here.
- [08:58]
Michael Boudreau
Right, right. So, Katie, how about you? Because I always say to people, they say, oh, you know, being a designer, I could do that myself. My response always to that is, okay, go to one fabric showroom. You know, you will be overwhelmed in three minutes by options and not knowing what to do. I mean, I'm overwhelmed. So is that a problem for you in Houston? Are your clients interested in doing that? Because, you know, Keisha raised another point. Some clients are just too busy. They don't care.
- [09:26]
Katie Davis
Right. I would say those are our ideal clients as well, that we shoot for the clients and explain that they are gonna be overwhelmed. They are gonna be frustrated and just try to. They're also losing that luxury level that we're offering. You know, so the idea of a turnkey home, that we get to know you and we're invested in your family, and we've seen how you live now that we're picking the right pieces for your space. Not only that fit in the space, but look good. It's the right fabric. It's the right performance level, you know, and then it also is really beautiful, and it all flows together. And I think my concern when I have done it is it goes into. Well, now they've picked a different piece, and, like, well, that's not a bad idea. But Now I have 30 other ideas, and it causes, like, a domino effect into the design and starts shifting the design. And I think that's what I am more concerned with, I guess, is that, oh, now we have a design shift. How is that affecting the rest of the home or the rest of the spaces we're working on would be my largest concern there.
- [10:29]
Michael Boudreau
But, I mean, that brings up two points. I mean, shopping with a client may be okay, but the client buying without you is really where they cross the line. No. Martha, wouldn't you agree with that? I mean, does that happen to you a lot?
- [10:43]
Martha Mulholland
I don't. I mean, it's part of my contract that, you know, if I present something, it's to be purchased through me. And I'm. Fortunately, my clients are respectful enough that they don't actually try to go behind my back in that way. I think it's a more sort of, like, innocent. Like, oh, I went by that showroom that you took me to with my friend because it was so beautiful, and I saw this thing, and suddenly they're kind of like, shopping on their own, and you're like, oh, boy. But they're still not. They wouldn't, like, buy. They wouldn't dare buy it. At least I hope not. But to Katie's point about, like, shifting the design direction, I think it's interesting because sometimes I think that could be a really positive thing to be able to see something in person and connect with a client. Have them be like, I really love this. You're sort of have an insurance policy to some degree of like, oh, this piece we know they like. It's not like a let's wait six months, it arrives, and you're like, oh, that's not what I was expecting. And it's kind of like, oh, you know, that's. That's an interesting. That's an interesting idea. You know, if I really think it's a bad idea, you know, you have to be very delicate with that dance. But usually I can steer them away from it. But sometimes it's like, oh, actually, I think that's sort of cool in this room. And so sometimes it can move things in a direction that is kind of. I want to say it's better or worse, but it can be a positive thing for a project in the long term and also sort of build, like, a trust or sort of like you and your client kind of got on the same page because you've shared this experience together. But again, I caveat it by saying it depends entirely on the client. And other times it's really not productive or it just kind of depends.
- [12:28]
Keisha Franklin
I agree with that. I think an area where I would say I do take a client shopping and it's always beneficial to the project is when we go shopping for art. Art is very Personal and doesn't necessarily kind of impact, to Katie's point, the overall design direction. I think that's a space where it enhances it and you're able to really kind of dive into creating what's special about the home through the client's eyes. Art tends to add to the story. It keeps it personal. And even with regards to, like antique shopping, I actually will take a client there because there's that one unique piece, right. We're not trying to figure out between five different sofa styles and fabric collections selections. We're looking specifically at something that speaks to them. So in those regards then, yes, but just talking about kind of that, the foundational pieces. I think, like Katie said, we're there to curate that, to understand who they are and to provide that turnkey service. So that part I stay away from. But I think art definitely is an area where you want to kind of include your client in the process.
- [13:43]
Michael Boudreau
That's a real service. Because, I mean, I think showrooms could probably be intimidating, but I think art galleries are really intimidating to people. And if you're their guide in leading them through, that's an important service. And Katie, one of the things that's coming out of this conversation I'm thinking about is that really shopping is a chance to learn more about your clients. You know, sometimes you learn things you don't want to know, obviously. But my question is, where do you take them? Do you take them to showrooms, you take them to antique stores, like Keisha was saying, or do you take them to, you know, Round Top? Where do you take your clients?
- [14:20]
Katie Davis
I have actually done this at Round Top and that is, it's almost like a girls day out. It's very fun. I've even had husbands get excited about it. So it is an experience. And to find, as Keisha said, those one off pieces are a really unique, special piece. They even kind of are a part of. You can't really haggle at Round Top anymore. You used to be able to, but you can kind of negotiate and they see how you're working. But it also builds that trust that Martha was talking about of, hey, look, I know what these pieces are worth. I know what piece we're looking for. We're looking for this era of piece. We want it to be this size because of X, Y and Z. You know, how it fits in the room and then kind of allows them to pick the piece that speaks the most to them. And we've done this outside of actually going to Round Top or an antique showroom. We did this with a client who loves sourcing antiques herself. We gave her a chart, literally an Excel sheet chart with all of the information that I preferred, and then let her kind of find those pieces and come back to us. It hasn't gone perfect, but it's definitely.
- [15:26]
Michael Boudreau
So you actually let her spend her own money?
- [15:29]
Katie Davis
Yes, yes. And, you know, I'd say that like 80% of them worked. And then the 20%, we're like, oh, those just weren't the best choices. But, you know, it. It was a good experience. And she's like, so this is why you do it yourself.
- [15:46]
Michael Boudreau
Right, right. 80% is a pretty good ratio, though. You must have really trusted that client. I wish 80% of my purchases were good, you know, and stood the test of time. But, you know, it's interesting that, that, you know, as we were saying at the beginning, it all depends on the client. So, Martha, what about travel? I mean, you mentioned that you won't take clients certain places. Have you ever taken a client to Paris or to London?
- [16:11]
Martha Mulholland
I have yet to have a client fly me to Italy to go shopping. It's on my list. It's on my short list of things to accomplish. I have gone shopping myself while traveling. For instance, I just got back from London and hit the motherload of amazing antiques and was like rapid fire texting clients. Cause I'm like, I can't leave this in the uk. Like, this must come back with me. I don't have room for it in my house, so who can take it? And I often shop like that when I'm traveling. So I'm almost like finding things, sending them to clients, saying, I think this would be amazing. It's usually pieces that are just like the special. Just because every now and again it's like, oh, we've been looking for this perfect alabaster column and this is just exactly it. But a lot of times it's like, this piece just has such a beautiful sensibility. Or the colors would look so great in your bedroom. Let's find a place for this. So I really enjoy, and I think the clients get very excited about this idea of interacting with pieces that they can tell their friends at a cocktail party, oh, my designer was just in Mexico City and she found this for me. Isn't it fabulous? I've shopped with clients, you know, who have flown in to LA or iv shop with them in New York. I haven't done, like international travel with clients for the purpose of shopping. I know that that's like a very, like, old school way of doing it. And I think it's amazing. But that also means spending a lot of time with the client.
- [17:38]
Michael Boudreau
Right.
- [17:40]
Martha Mulholland
For my out of town projects, you know, when I do have to go and stay the night, it's always that weird thing of like, okay, are we filling our days together by doing things like shopping or are we kind of going our separate ways or like we oblige to eat together like that? I don't know. I guess I'm kind of going in a different direction. But. But yeah, I think the, the traveling to a place with a client to shop is. It sounds very fun, but logistically also sort of challenging, I guess. I don't know. I prefer to do it on my own and bring it to them because.
- [18:14]
Michael Boudreau
You know, shopping, let's face it, is a very social thing. I mean, other than when you're doing it alone for knowing what you need to find for your clients, when you're with a client, that it's a social day as well. I mean, so I'm sure it slows you down. Do you find that to be true?
- [18:28]
Keisha Franklin
Keisha, I'm happy that you asked that question, like, about slowing it down. I think one of the challenges about taking a client shopping also in internationally, let's say, is that do you know the lay of the land? Right. I think a part of being the designer, the expert coming in is also being able to navigate that flea market or navigate that international shopping. So it's almost like you would want to explore those areas first. Almost like if I too, like Martha, it's on my bucket list as well to get flown out and, you know, shop with a client internationally. But I think if I did, I would probably go down a few days before, kind of scope out where I think we should go, what we should look for. So that again, I keep that kind of like, you know, I'm the expert in this area and we're not both kind of like, oh my God. And I'm trying to knock her out because I want the alabaster because you know how that goes as a designer. You know, there's so many things we, we tend to want for ourselves and sometimes there's a struggle. I don't know if anyone has gone through that trial and tribulation, but sometimes I see things that I'm like, I need this for myself, even though I know it's like the perfect item for my clients project. So to kind of go get through that part, I think you still need to be able to know the lay of the land before bringing the client in no matter where you're shopping.
- [20:08]
Michael Boudreau
I think that's a very good point, because I'm sure, like we were saying before, a lot of these clients are busy. Some of them are more interested than others. And I can imagine that it would be a sort of a nightmare if you take a client someplace and they hate everything and they're thinking, why did you bring me here? Has that anything like that ever happened to you, Katie? I mean, the cliche is it would be the husbands that. That get bored or resentful, you know.
- [20:32]
Katie Davis
No, I would say the only. I haven't really had that experience. We, again, don't take them shopping too often, but I have done it in a showroom, and they were so overwhelmed, it kind of proved my point. So to that extent, it worked of, like, this is why we're going to bring you the 10 fabrics, or we're going to start with the one we like, you know, going from that direction.
- [20:52]
Michael Boudreau
Right, right. Let me make some choices first, and then we'll edit it down for you. Right, right.
- [20:58]
Katie Davis
Yeah, exactly.
- [21:00]
Martha Mulholland
I think it could be, again, kind of when you're working with somebody that is. It's a new relationship, and you're kind of figuring out their taste, sometimes you mesh with a client, a potential client, right away, and you have a very distinct vision for, this is what your house is going to be like, or this is what the restaurants, whatever it is.
- [21:15]
Michael Boudreau
Well, presumably, they come to you because they know what your aesthetic is, and. Presumably. But. I mean, sure.
- [21:21]
Martha Mulholland
But I guess, like, for me, I'm a very, you know, eclectic designer, and my. My designs shift very much based on the architecture of the space and the particular objectives of the client. If they have kids, if they have pets, you know, or if they want something that's just very, like, you know, theatrical and immersive, like, it runs the gamut. And I kind of enjoy playing at all of those things, those areas and the challenge of kind of moving between them. But for. I've had clients in the past who I can't quite tell what they're going to be like, and they're not quite sure how to articulate their taste. So going to a fabric showroom, I think 100% would be a terrible idea for any client ever. But there's some times when. And I'm fortunate LA has such incredible resources. You could literally just spend a day in West Hollywood, you know, going up and down Beverly, going up and down La Cienega and get this really diverse experience. And it's sometimes helpful to do that with a client and see what they don't like, you know, and some showrooms sort of leave them cold, and you're like, okay, well, now I know not to be sending them these more contemporary pieces. Now I see they really like this more textural, layered, pattern on pattern. Okay. So it helps them to understand what they like. It helps me to understand what they like. So I think that there is kind of a benefit potentially to not hitting it out of the park sometimes and to kind of treat it as an exploratory exercise. That's often what I'll say of like, hey, let's just go and kind of see what you react to and see if we can find some sort of key pieces to get this conversation started.
- [23:04]
Keisha Franklin
Yeah, I agree. I think, again, it's the client relationship. And I think there are some benefits to being able to take a client shopping, because no matter how much you pull a tear sheet and bring samples in and have the best of visuals, there's nothing like being able to touch it and see it and sit on it in person. So I definitely think. And would that it is a more beneficial process. In the end, it's just. It boils down to the client. I think it really does. Whether that is successful or not, especially.
- [23:36]
Martha Mulholland
With things like seating. You know, I have some clients who have to be able to sit on something, so either have to make it custom so they can go to the workroom and. And test it out with muslin before it gets upholstered and make any changes. Or if it's vintage, it better be local, because if I ship it from the Netherlands and it arrives and it's not exactly to their comfort level, then I have to send it back. And so it's like, the shopping piece really helps to mitigate the disappointment in that department. And same with, like, patina. Some clients say they like antiques, but then, you know, they actually see it in person. They're like, oh, I don't know. So if they see it in person in the context of a gallery, you know, they go to gallery half, which is all about patina and materiality and texture. They're like, oh, okay, I can get down with this. Versus you bring it to them in an empty room, and they're like, what are all these scuffs? You know, it's reframing the context of the object a little bit. So I think that can be interesting.
- [24:32]
Ana Brockway
Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Cherish podcast. I'm Ana Brockway, president and co founder of Cherish. We're taking a quick break to fill you in on some exciting news. Cherish is launching an extended return policy only for interior designers. Cherish Trade members will now have access to the best return window in the industry, with a full 14 days to return qualifying purchases, including on international fines. This limited time offer ends on October 31st. For more details, visit cherish.comtrade that's C H A I R I-dot com backslash trade. And now back to the show.
- [25:14]
Michael Boudreau
One of the things that this brings up is, you know, it's so great to be able to bring a client, you know, to sit on something, to feel something, to touch it. But there are fewer dealers than there used to be. There are fewer brick and mortar stores. And, you know, the Internet has changed everything, so now everybody feels they know everything. So has that been. I mean, in many way. I guess it's. In many ways, the Internet is a huge boon to every business. But I think there are probably some drawbacks. Does it frustrate you sometimes, like, Katie, do you end up sending JPEGs or PDFs or whatever to your clients? You know, what about this color? What about this chair? I mean, I know it makes things more efficient, but is there a downside to that?
- [25:54]
Katie Davis
Yeah, no, I think the whole touch and feel, we do have clients who also want to do that and touch and feel and sit on it. We don't have as many showrooms in Houston, so we don't have the ability to say, okay, you can go sit on that piece or for sure. And so that's where our side of it is. We have had to have sat on it. So going to market or going up to Dallas, which has better showrooms, that we can say, I've sat on it. And that's where you trust me, if they're particular, like Martha brought up with the sofa size or things like that, we'll just make that custom and make it exactly to the dimensions they like. And that works out really well on our end. So the only real downside is if they haven't really taken into account all the angles of the piece. So when we're sending the tare sheet, making sure that if that's a chair from Palacek, for example, that we've shown all the angles of it so they can see the differences in the back or the difference in the colors and getting those sample pieces from the vendor, maybe in having all the options, even if we know we like that certain color way that we're getting three others, so the client sees differences and to confirm that selection.
- [27:00]
Michael Boudreau
And what about scale? I mean, have you ever had an issue with that? Because I would imagine it's fair. I mean, sometimes it's hard for me to know the scale. I can read what the measurements are, but the actual how its presence in a room is very hard to interpret. Has that been an issue for you, Katie, with some clients, in terms of sending tear sheets or jpegs?
- [27:19]
Martha Mulholland
Yeah.
- [27:19]
Katie Davis
I mean. Or. No, not really. I guess that's where the trust comes back from us. So of like, trying to explain how it's gonna sit in the room of why I've. Why we picked that particular sofa. And that's kind of the sales side of our job, is this sofa works because X, Y, and Z in the space. And taking into that into an account, I have had definitely a piece come in in my brain. I was like, that's not exactly how I was imagining it. So let me reposition it over here. Looks better on this side of the room, now that I see it together. I mean, you know, but. And that's the massage of it. But also, we try to explain to clients up front, that's where the tug and pull comes. And so we want that space to be perfect. If the piece comes in and it's not how I imagined it, it doesn't look good. We take it back and just say, I'll find something else. But luckily, that's happened, like, one time, so. Yeah, but that's kind of where the trust comes in.
- [28:13]
Michael Boudreau
That's lucky. What about you, Keisha? Has that ever happened to you?
- [28:16]
Keisha Franklin
I like to say and tell my clients that designing is like a movie. There's, like, the lead actress, the lead actor, there are supporters, and then there are fillers. Right. So I kind of manage the expectation there in that we're going to focus on some of the pieces that we need to get absolutely right and perfect. But then everything else is there for a reason to create the final overall story and picture. So what that does is not allow too much pressure on any one thing. Right. Because it is about how everything comes together as the collective, not just so much, because I think sometimes clients get really kind of maybe overly obsessive about one particular thing. Definitely. I feel like scale, when you're in the business for a long period of time, those are things you need to not mess up at a certain point in the game. Right. You. You have. You need to either, like Katie said, make sure that you're going to that showroom to ensure that those pieces are at the right height, scale and if you can't determine that, then you need to have it custom made. But I don't. I would say at this stage in the game, for me, I'm not necessarily getting anything wrong with regards to proportion and scale, but definitely I try to allow room and space for flaws within the creative process. I posted a post just the other day that said that seeking perfection allows you to lose the imperfection of beauty. Right. So there are some times when those imperfect things end up working out for the better. So you gotta remember that it's a creative process. And creative means that even though we're doing our best to put a floor plan together, create a rendering, present a design concept, once it gets in the house, then it starts to take on life. And life is many things, right? It's colorful and it has different layers to it. So we need to embrace that. But. So, yeah, I think that there's no design process that you're not gonna find some of those little oops moment, but it's how you work through them and how you end up making those moments still represent something that's beautiful and inviting for the client.
- [30:47]
Michael Boudreau
Right, Very well said. So, you know, one of the things you were talking about, like, basically rooms with soul, that they really work together and an element of that, I think generally whatever period or style you're working is those special pieces. Martha, you mentioned that looking over those special pieces. So I just wanna get a sense from you look for those. Like, do you guys even on your own, I'm not saying with a client, but maybe you do take clients. Do you go to like the winter show in New York or the San Francisco Antique Fair Design Miami? You know, beyond the general dealers and showrooms that you go to regularly, do you find those things really useful for you?
- [31:25]
Martha Mulholland
I really find special pieces all over. I know that's not particularly helpful, but I think they're the kind of things that you just stumble upon. You know, you can look for things, but it's. That's kind of what makes them special. And to sort of go back to what we were speaking about a minute ago, you know, it is those sort of discovery moments or those things that maybe don't like, make the most sense, but they just add this soul. And there's like that kind of wabi sabi of like bringing something in that is like, we just love it just because, you know, it doesn't fit in the formula per se. It doesn't. You know, like, if you look at what makes a room dynamic, it's sometimes the juxtaposition of something that feels a little bit off, it's not so perfect that it doesn't have a soul. And so I think those pieces in my mind as a person, that's very, like, antique and, like, object driven and always have been. I just. I connect with things. And it could be when I'm traveling, It could be when I'm at the flea market. It could be when I'm at a fair to see, you know, new. New objects. And then I just have dealers all over the world who send me things, and, like, here's my new inventory. So it kind of comes in a variety of ways, and often not intentionally. I'll just come across something and be like, this is fabulous. This needs to find a home in one of my projects. And if I can't find a home for it at that time, sometimes I'll just buy it and keep it in my inventory. And then it finds a home eventually. Or it ends up in my home and my husband wrings his hands in despair because I brought another chair into the house. So there's that piece of it too. But, yeah, I think they can come from all over. I'm finding people on Instagram, like artists that are just starting out, that do beautiful custom mirrors or this gorgeous textile, and you're like, oh, wow, how can I fold this into one of my projects? So it's. Yeah, but I think it's easier to find those things in person, honestly, because that's when you can connect with an object versus shopping for something special online. That feels almost kind of like, counterintuitive in a way.
- [33:35]
Michael Boudreau
Right. Katie, how about your clients? Because your rooms are so of a piece, and they're color coordinated, they're fresh, they're so lovely. Is it harder for you to work with sending JPEGs or whatever, texts to clients with pieces? Or is that something you've made part of your standard practice?
- [33:55]
Katie Davis
We definitely make it part of the standard practice, and we always have a sample of something. So for all of our fabrics, we have samples that we showcase. You know, we lay it out in front of them, show it, and we've gotten more into providing renderings. I think renderings are good and bad, but we have the ability to kind of take it to an artistic level so it doesn't look such like a computer rendering and more hand drawn and more hand painted. But that has also helped kind of showcase how these pieces work together in the space. Instead of seeing, you know, one showroom might have the fabric sample, like, tiny, like a two by two Square. And the next one, you actually get a full memo that's, you know, at least 2ft long. So that is how we show them, those pieces coming together into the spaces. And then for the furnishings, you know, we're pulling those samples and ordering the finished samples from the different vendors. And if it's an antique or something from Cherish or from Round Top or things like that, then that's where we actually enjoy the patina that came on it. And we love that it's not the perfect shade of brown, going back to Keisha's point, that it's the imperfection of that piece that not everything needs to match. And it's supposed to be kind of a collection of pieces together.
- [35:09]
Michael Boudreau
Right, Right. Terrific. Now, we talked about clients wanting to go shopping with you, but I could see that, like, if there's something you don't want, either you don't like the client, let's face it, that happens, or you feel that it's an impediment, you know, and it's not a fun outing. It's not like. It's not like two girlfriends going to Bergdorr's for a dress. This is a different thing. So has it ever happened to you that you've actually said, no, I don't think that's a good idea? And then it creates sort of a rift or creates tension in the. In the creative process?
- [35:43]
Keisha Franklin
Yes. Yes, it has happened to me where the husband and wife. The husband actually pulled me to the side because I think the wife actually felt and wanted to do the project on her own, is what I surmised in the end. But he understood that this was not her space, wanted it done in an effective amount of time, and so felt that they should bring in a design firm. So here I come. But I did get this sidebar conversation that he would have appreciated it if I took her along for, you know, the sourcing process and really getting her involved in the overall design process, which, of course, as you know, is a part of it. Right. I'm not living there. It's their home. So taking in her thoughts and consideration and his is definitely important. However, you have to pay attention. One of the things that I realized in being successful in this business as a designer is that you have to be a really great listener, and you have to pay attention to the flags. And so that call, having it been on the side, understanding that, in essence, she didn't necessarily felt that I needed to be there. Another flag. I just knew that taking her shot was going to be the beginning of the end. So I declined again, not quite remembering exactly how what I said, but just kind of overall just, you know, explained about how overwhelming the process would be and that I felt it would be, you know, do more harm than good. But I think ultimately she got wind of that and I think she made everything that I presented became a problem. Whether she liked it or not, I could tell that she wanted to try and undo every design idea and thing that I proposed. She just had something, not even negative to say about it, but just a different option of how. I guess she felt it could have been better. So it definitely created tension. And to be honest, I ultimately did walk away from that project.
- [38:01]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, I would say sounds like it was doomed. Sounds like it was doomed.
- [38:04]
Keisha Franklin
I walked away.
- [38:05]
Martha Mulholland
Yeah, I had a similar kind of experience. And it's interesting because you have to be very careful of how you play certain things. And ultimately we are a customer service industry. And so you need to listen to your client. You need to give your client what you want. And I've had my kind of ego get in the way sometimes when. And this kind of ties into the shopping conversation. I've presented options to a client. Suddenly my client is presenting options to me from the same vendors. And I'm like, I'm sorry, Like, I'm not, you know, what do you think of these six things? It's like, I don't really know what to say because ultimately it's her house. But I'm like, you're kind of crossing a line and you don't realize that. So how do I kind of nipped this in the bud. And in this situation I was in, I pushed back and was like, I have an idea for what I want for this piece and I don't think any of these will work. And let me send you some options. We're actively working on this. And she kind of shot back and said, this is my house and I want you to look at the things that I found because I'm going to live with them and it's my money. And I was kind of like, oh, I mean, that's a fair point. But also like, you hired me as a professional and like, if could I would I tell you how to write a film script? Because you gave me a book to read. Like, I wouldn't step on your toes in that way, but you see no problem stepping on mine. And I think that's where this like, access to trade only vendors not being trade only anymore and everybody being able to get online. And there is like that kind of mystique and that sort of exclusivity that only a designer can bring it to you, that is gone from what we do and it can create problems. And ultimately that project was not. I had to kind of walk away from it as well.
- [39:59]
Michael Boudreau
But see, that's always been my pet peeve, the design that people think designers are shoppers. That is not why you hire a designer for. You know, they're so misguided and when they do that, and it's just we've been trying to get that message out for years and decades and hopefully it is getting out there, but I can see how frustrating it would be.
- [40:19]
Keisha Franklin
Yeah. So let's say it, Michael. Designers are artists.
- [40:22]
Michael Boudreau
We are artists, they are creative.
- [40:24]
Keisha Franklin
That's what that is. We are artists.
- [40:26]
Michael Boudreau
And not to mention you're also practical artists, you know, like, where should the light switches go? Where should the plugs go? You know, all that stuff that you guys think about, not to mention you do all of that and then you all have everything delivered and installed in a two day period, that's to me is like a miracle, you know, I mean, the fact that you can pull that off, between the creativity, the engineering, the shipping, all of that is to me astounding that you guys can do that so consistently and so beautifully. So, you know, that's why it just drives me crazy when people think, not that we don't want people to buy things on cherish, buy dishes, buy whatever, you know, that's all great, but you know, you have to understand what the role of a designer is, you know, and a lot of people don't.
- [41:07]
Keisha Franklin
I think the thing about it also with regards to the six pieces that Martha's client was referencing, there are probably like 72 pieces that go into a room, not six. And so in what I had mentioned about telling the overall story, we're able to see it, you know, from beginning to end. Every little thing, the small, where the picture frame goes, you know, where how does it throw is placed. Like it's more than just these six things that they will tend to get locked in. And ultimately that is why they're hiring a designer, because we can see the complete picture. And it's a talent that is a talent that a lot of people don't possess. Hence why there's an industry for it, for us as creatives. So I think if the client can understand that, that, yes, it is your own home. Yes, you have every right to want to have a say in it. I don't think any of us, I know I Wouldn't want to hire a designer who's just like, sit back, shut up, and let me do my thing. Like, that's. That's not what we're here to do. But definitely we're here to guide, you know, and to kind of orchestrate the process. Because it can get messy after those six things. Then how else, you know, what else is. Is a part of the process? We're creating an atmosphere. There's an environment. When I do reveals, what I like to point out to clients, I'm very intentional about it, is I ask the question, how does the space make you feel? That's really important to me because at that point in time, when I show them the completed room, it has very little to do about, oh, my God, the sofa, oh, my God, the chair or the piece of art. It's very much about this overall kind of visceral experience that they're having. And that is where we come in. That's the part that the client. If they're. If this is not their space, you. They can't create that. They cannot create that. And I think that's what you're paying for. You're paying totally for that. Yeah.
- [43:20]
Martha Mulholland
Yeah.
- [43:20]
Michael Boudreau
Very well said. Okay, one last question. Because, you know, as we said at the beginning, it all depends on the client. Whether the client is interested, not interested, you know, somebody that you like, maybe you don't like so much, whatever. But. So here's the question. Would you rather have a client who was very involved and wanted to go shopping, was so interested, or a client who says to you, you know, I'm really busy. I like what you do. I need, you know, I have two children. I, you know, I want a dining room here. Go on your own. Which is preferable to you. Martha, why don't we start with you?
- [43:54]
Martha Mulholland
I think the latter.
- [43:56]
Michael Boudreau
Okay.
- [43:56]
Martha Mulholland
Generally speaking, I mean, I. As I say, I enjoy the experience of that kind of discovery with a new client and with a longtime client, but everything else that falls in the middle. I think generally, if the person trusts me and they trust my vision, it is easier and kind of.
- [44:18]
Michael Boudreau
I mean, these are hypotheticals, and they're two extremes.
- [44:21]
Martha Mulholland
Yeah. It's funny because I was saying earlier that it's more efficient sometimes to just be able to go and knock it out. And I do kind of stand by that. But I feel like I can bring pieces to them for memo and kind of achieve the same thing than taking them around to shop. So I think generally, keeping the mystique and having somebody who's like, you do you? And me needing to keep myself in check to make sure I'm serving the need of my client. I'm creating this amazing space for them to live. So I need to make sure I'm still thinking about them. But ultimately this is my thing that I'm doing for them. I think that that is like the cleanest and yields the best results in the long term and kind of mitigates the possibility of all these little, like, hiccups that we've discussed. These, like, hypothetical hiccups.
- [45:07]
Michael Boudreau
And Katie, which would. Which would you prefer?
- [45:09]
Katie Davis
I agree with Martha. I actually prefer the latter. Just. And I find that those installs and those reveals go the best. It is that. And not to say they're totally unconnected, I guess to kind of add to your hypothetical. I don't want someone not interested in what we're presenting and not excited about it. But yeah, let us do our thing and to trust the process. It is magical to see their excitement at the end of the day of what we were able to pull from their inspirations and take from a JPEG into a real life room and have those feelings that Keisha talked about. I mean, so it tends to go smoother, less back and forth. And also when you bring them into the shopping experience. Or we have the client, for instance, for us, that had the Excel sheet that we gave her of all the antiques to buy, kind of the magic of the reveal was gone. She kind of already saw everything. And it wasn't as it didn't have that moment of, oh my gosh, look at this beautiful room. Because she already saw all the pieces. Maybe that's not the right way to say it, but I think it tends to be a much more exciting experience at the end if they let us do it from the beginning.
- [46:21]
Michael Boudreau
Interesting. So, Kesha, would you agree?
- [46:24]
Keisha Franklin
I agree. I agree 100%. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, to kind of just piggyback that, I have like a 35. I think we're up to 35 question questionnaire where I interview the client extensively. A lot of the questions have very little to. To do with design. I'm really trying to get into their head. And I say to them that this process is so that when I am sourcing, I'm thinking like Katie, I'm thinking like Martha. I'm thinking what you liked, what you don't like. Right. Because we've kind of dived in and I've gotten to know you as much as possible on the most effective and quick personal level so that I can be informed and that information informs my decisions and in what I'm going to ultimately present. And I agree. I think when the client trusts me and I have that information, and they are more inclined to say, kesha, what do you think? As opposed to me asking them what they think. When it comes down to making decisions, I think the end result is always better. I definitely always want to make sure that the client has a say, because I feel strongly that I don't live there. I've had clients where they've dealt with a designer before, and the story is like a nightmare because that designer was very forceful, had a very strong opinion, a very strong point of view. And then ultimately, you know, five years later, I'm in there trying to undo what this designer did. So I learned to be mindful of that. However, coming in as a creative, we're also there to, you know, stretch the mold. I don't necessarily like the word break the mold, but I want to stretch it a little bit and bring something to the table that you wouldn't have necessarily thought about yourself. So leaving room for that, I think, is really important. And at the end of the day, I want to enjoy the process too. Right. Like Katie said, I want to have. Have fun. Like, this is where.
- [48:26]
Martha Mulholland
This is why we do it, you know?
- [48:28]
Keisha Franklin
Yeah.
- [48:28]
Martha Mulholland
It's like that. That seeing a client's eyes light up and being like, oh, my God, how did you do this? Some of its parts, you know, it's not just like the individual, I think.
- [48:39]
Keisha Franklin
Correct.
- [48:40]
Martha Mulholland
Because if you're not having fun, they're not having fun. And it's not gonna be.
- [48:43]
Keisha Franklin
The house is gonna be like, absolutely trust a designer.
- [48:48]
Michael Boudreau
Right.
- [48:48]
Keisha Franklin
Just your designer.
- [48:49]
Michael Boudreau
I guess that's one of the big message I'm getting out of this, is that shopping with a client under the right circumstances can be a good way to learn about the client. But maybe it's not the best way, you know, and there's other ways to go about it. It is fraught. So it's something you have to be very diplomatic and careful, and you have to know the client, too, to know if it's going to work for you. So I think it's been so fast. Fascinating. So I want to thank my wonderful guests, Keisha Franklin, Martha Mulholland and Katie Davis, and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode episode. Please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Bert Muller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.