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- [00:00]
Michael Boudreau
This is the Cherish podcast and I'm your host, Michael Boudreau. I'll be taking you for an inside look behind the glamorous facade of the interior design industry at a time when every aspect of the business, from sourcing to trends to marketing to dealing with clients, is undergoing rapid change. It's always wonderful to be selected for a project, but being chosen is only the first hurdle. Even after all the meetings, discussions, and consultations, you still need to convey to clients what your ultimate vision for their project is and why they should believe in you, sign off, and front the necessary funds. Clearly, client presentations are crucial. They're a selling tool, a blueprint for the work ahead, and a tantalizing vision of the results far away on the horizon. But what makes for an effective presentation? Do you try to convey mood and atmosphere, or do you prepare a precise depiction of scale measurements and materials? Will mood boards suffice, or do you need a computer rendering? Should you be using AI? Do you present a raft of samples of everything from floorboards to marble surfaces to fabric swatches, or will a beautiful drawing or two of your concepts suffice? I have with me today an architect and two designers who, in very different ways, are skilled at convincing clients that their visions are strong, their solutions are correct, and it is time to move ahead. First up is San Antonio based architect Michael G. Ember. Michael has designed iconic branches and country houses across Texas and the western United States, as well as coastal homes and luxury resorts. He has received numerous honors and his work has been featured in Elle Decor, Coastal Living, Texas Architect, and many other publications. He is also a devoted artist who creates amazing watercolors and drawings of his projects, many of which are gathered in his new book, the Art of the Architect, published by Triglyph Books. Hello, Michael.
- [02:03]
Michael G. Ember
Thank you, Michael. Glad to be here.
- [02:05]
Michael Boudreau
Boston based interior designer Nina Farmer draws inspiration from fashion, art, history, and her travels to create richly atmospheric rooms that skillfully mix furniture and accessories of various styles and periods. A graduate of Tulane and the New York School of Interior Design, she worked for prestigious firms in New York and Boston before starting her own firm. Her work has been published in Architectural Digests, Marie Claire, Maison House, a New England home. Her first book, Timeless by Design, was just published by Rizzoli. Welcome, Nina.
- [02:36]
Nina Farmer
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
- [02:38]
Michael Boudreau
Glad you're here. Gideon Mendelsohn founded his Manhattan firm, Mendelssohn Group in 2003 after studying architecture and film at Columbia University. His firm has crafted layered, bright and serene interiors in Manhattan, Westchester County, Miami and the Hamptons. And his projects have been featured in numerous publications including Architectural Digest, Coastal Living, and House Beautiful. Hello, Gideon.
- [03:00]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Hi, Michael.
- [03:01]
Michael Boudreau
So this is a process that's fascinating to me because as I was saying, it's great that somebody comes to you and say, I want you to do my home, but then comes the work. And we're talking about expensive propositions, Especially you, Michael. Building a whole house or whatever is an expensive proposition. So how do you go about convincing the client that your solution, your ideas, are the right ones? Now, I know you have meetings, obviously, and they, you know, whatever the brief is. But I'm sure clients at this point need to be dazzled. So how do you do that? Michael, I'm going to start with you because you are such a skilled watercolor and artist and drawer. I mean, your book is beautiful. Do you do drawings for every project that you present to clients? How does it work in your office?
- [03:50]
Michael G. Ember
Thank you, Michael. We do do drawings for every early on. Well, especially early.
- [03:56]
Michael Boudreau
Okay.
- [03:56]
Michael G. Ember
And we do use computers like any other architects, But I think early on is the most important. These projects, as you know, can last years. And so there's many different levels of decisions that have to be made, which means there's different levels of presentations to get to those decisions. In the beginning, you're trying to capture this dream. And I see presentations a lot like you have movies where everything can be clarified and you see every character, you see every scene. Or they could be more like books. And we see our initial presentations more like books, where we really allow the client to read between the lines. And we find if we can do these initial drawings in watercolors, that it helps leave space for the client to insert their own imagination and allow for them to have their dream live within the drawings that we're giving them. So we don't find that highly detailed computer drawings work for us in the beginning. We try to let them be more romantic, more open to interpretation, and then we get more detailed as we move through to the detailed decisions of a project.
- [05:15]
Michael Boudreau
A contractor is not going to work for a watercolor. I mean, a romantic watercolor, but. But that's how you get the client to sign on. So, Nina, how about you? Because I think of your rooms as being very subtle color palettes, very atmospheric. How do you do that? Is it. Are mood boards enough? How do you convince the client?
- [05:33]
Nina Farmer
Yeah, I think as opposed to what Michael was saying, you know, our design really builds as we go along, as opposed to architecture, which has to be a little bit more in the forward Thinking in the project, we tend to build and build as we're moving. So we have a lot of vintage pieces that we find and collect and curate along the way that we don't necessarily know where that's going to lead us in the beginning. So we start all of our projects off with inspiration images so that the client can get on the same visual page as us. And they could be anything from ideas about living a certain way or a color palette or a favorite hotel, just something kind of as a jumping off point. And then we move into some real items. And I always start every room with a rug, so I do a huge pull of rugs, a lot of vintage antique pieces. I bring the client in at that point and. And we do a big overhaul. A lot can be read from a client in that initial phase. And then we'll jump into palette and specific furniture and of course, you know, furniture plans and all the rest of it. But I really want to get their sense of take on color pattern. Some people embrace that and some people don't. And I find that out pretty early on in the process.
- [06:56]
Michael Boudreau
So do you have the client come into your office? I mean, clearly you're not dragging these rug samples.
- [07:01]
Nina Farmer
Yeah, no. So I have them meet at. I have a wonderful showroom here that we use. I have them meet us there. They fly rugs in from all over. And we really do, you know, like a couple hour deep dive, just get into it. And then we have sort of that direction and they can really embrace where we're going with it a little bit better from that experience too. And on top of that, we'll build everything else.
- [07:26]
Michael Boudreau
And Gideon, what's your process?
- [07:29]
Gideon Mendelsohn
So my firm does both architecture and the decorating, and I think Michael and Nina are touching on things that we do some of both of those things. But what's interesting to me is I think in the beginning, what's most important is to gain the trust of the client. And for us, that really starts even before we start any designing at all. Right. So we actually give a very, very in depth presentation that we call the what, how, why presentation. And it's really part of the sales cycle, actually. So that's the time for me to really understand what the clients have in mind, what they're looking for. They're coming to us because they like the work that they've seen before, but it's an opportunity for us to really understand what they're looking for. The presentation is an opportunity for me to talk a little about what we do. What are the Services that we offer. All designers and architects sort of have different core competencies and services that they provide. How we do it, meaning the process, what that experience is going to look like for clients, and a little bit about our design philosophy. That's sort of the first presentation that we give. And I think it sets a tone in terms of our professionalism, our interest in budgets and timelines and communication. And I'm trying to solve a problem that I've heard for years and years and years about everybody's struggles with contractors and designers, etc. But that first presentation is a PowerPoint presentation. But for me that's. It's a lot of us talking, it's a lot of me getting to know them and developing that trust. From there, they sign on and we do other types of presentations about architecture, decorating, that sort of thing.
- [09:08]
Michael Boudreau
So your PowerPoint is that kind of a standard thing that you use with each new client and then you run?
- [09:14]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yes.
- [09:14]
Michael Boudreau
So a lot of this presentation is verbal. Really.
- [09:17]
Gideon Mendelsohn
The first few presentations are a little bit more verbal. We don't do beautiful renderings and watercolors like Michael does. But there is a lot of sketching that goes on in the beginning. But for me, the sales is a chat and a trust gaining exercise and talking about look and feel and understanding people's likes and dislikes palette. As Nina discussed, once we kind of get to that point where I feel like I've got them locked in, then presentations turn to a more technical aspect.
- [09:49]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah, I like what Gideon is saying about the why. And I think that really boils down to the trust issue. Whenever we are interviewed for a new project, we ask the why. The big flag for us is if it's the what, because that becomes more of kind of a commodity. They're hiring us because they simply heard to hire us or for some other reason than why are they trying to do this project? What is deeply meaningful to them? And if we can get to what is meaningful to them, what do they think about when, what do they dream about when they lay their head on their pillow at night in this new project for them that they've been planning for years in most cases that if we can get to that, then we can get to that level of trust that Gideon's talking about and then that's what we build upon.
- [10:34]
Michael Boudreau
And Nina, I guess my question to you is at what point do you believe that you've established that trust? Because obviously somebody comes into your office, you have a meeting or two, you're not gonna start pulling out fabric samples and stuff until you're pretty sure that this is gonna move ahead. Because it's a lot of work.
- [10:52]
Nina Farmer
Exactly. No. Yeah. So backing up to. Before we go pick the rugs, the initial meeting with our clients, we try to understand exactly what Michael is saying. What is the objective? What are we trying to do here? A lot of our projects happen to be on historic homes, so there's a big restoration portion that people are thinking about and the ways they want to live in historic homes to make them useful for today's world. So that's a lot of our initial. Even just pre design, just sort of concept and where we're going. And then when I said my contract, I also send a lengthy questionnaire that has all these questions about how people live, what they're comfortable with, specific things they might like, little peccadillos about how they maybe they read in a certain light and they want to sit in a certain place when they do that, you know, really diving into the nitty gritty. But that's something that we kind of use to focus ourselves along the way and kind of revert back to, oh, I remember, as I said, they like to do X, Y, Z. We need to make sure we incorporate them. And so it's a little bit of back and forth, but then kind of going to, okay, what's the real concept here? What are we thinking that their vision looks like? And is the house giving us any clues? Because I said, a lot of times we're starting with a given product that is telling a story of its own, and we want to make sure that that is part of our process as well. So I think it's a lot of jumping back and forth between making sure that their ideas of what their concept. And I think a lot of people have flushed out function more than they have sort of design and form. So making sure that that's all incorporated. But then the idea of what it looks like to us is it evolves over the course of the project to be its end. Final, beautiful result.
- [12:41]
Michael Boudreau
Right, Right.
- [12:42]
Michael G. Ember
Well, I love what Nita's talking about in terms of story, because to us, it always boils down to that. You know, they live their lives. Our clients live their lives in a. But they've kind of written their story moving forward in their head. And so they want to live a certain life through what it is we can design for them. And so for us, it may not be a list that we create, but it's certainly a conversation about what that means for them and about how they see themselves not how they live today, but how they're going to live in the future, not two years from now, not five years from now, but 10, 15 years from now. And, you know, how can we help them write the script for that story moving forward?
- [13:26]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah, I feel the same way about this story and the importance of, at least as my career has gone on, my interest in what Michael called the why, you know, when clients come in and they immediately start talking about what it's going to look like or the stuff that is being. It's going to be filling their homes, that's a red flag for me. I'm interested in understanding how people live, the families that we work with, who they are, what their kids needs are, and how we can create certainly a beautiful and safe environment, but mostly something that's really going to function well for them and that the kids can be inspired in and they can feel comfortable and happy in. So the decorating and this stuff is important. And it's the stuff that we tend to focus on. The pretty pictures, the photography, that's what we sort of see. But behind the scenes, the focus is really on lifestyle and people, and that's sort of where we focus. I mean, that leads to discussions about program and architecture and design, but it starts with that stuff.
- [14:29]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah, a lot of people could just buy the stuff, right?
- [14:31]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, of course, you can grate and barrel or stow, whatever, you know, but it's not what you guys do. But and speaking of trust of the client and learning to know the client and what they're looking for, are there different clients that you do different kinds of presentations for? Are there clients who want lots of specifics? Nina, you're nodding, so definitely.
- [14:52]
Nina Farmer
Yeah. I think you really have to read your client and the project to know there are some projects. There's one specific project that I did that we just. I knew we kind of had carte blanche and we could just say the littlest hint of an idea and the client would go for it and she would be fine. And there's other projects where you really have to show, you know, we show each little detail, the trim and what each piece is going to be because you know, that that client is super detail oriented, wants to know everything that they're going to live with, and both are great ways to approach it, but some clients just don't want it bogged down in the details, and other ones really want to know, you know, every little inch.
- [15:32]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I agree. I think every client's different. We have a system and a program that we've developed over many years that this framework of presentation that we use for everyone. But there are slight adjustments depending on whether this is the first time the client's worked with a designer before, whether this is a repeat client, whether this is an older client who's just not interested in all the detail, whether they're super young and want to focus on something, whether they're mostly focused on budget as much as they are the decorating part of it. We need to be good listeners.
- [16:04]
Michael G. Ember
I feel like we're robots having to reinvent the process with every single client. Right. You try to get a read on the client and understand what their needs are and present in a way that you engage them and you engage their passion for the project. You know, you're just meeting these people for the first time often. And so often you have to adjust that process even as you move through the project because you find that there's certain things that they react to and other things that they simply don't understand. I mean, the worst thing is to assume that a client understands how to read two dimensional plans and then find out months into the project that they don't. So. And they've never said anything to you about it. They just get a blank look on their face.
- [16:50]
Michael Boudreau
They're nodding, they're nodding along. You think it's all fine. Right?
- [16:55]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Right.
- [16:56]
Michael G. Ember
So we find ourselves adjusting as we move from each client and through each project to make sure that we're engaging the client in a meaningful way.
- [17:07]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. And it's true, a lot of people are not that visual and really can't imagine what it could be. And I would, I would think Michael, is. It's a little easier, maybe for you, Nina, when you're doing a historical home and you're redoing it. But Michael, you know, you're building a house from the ground up. And Gideon, you're working on that way too. Sometimes people cannot visualize what you're going to do for them. So my question is, how do you make that real? I mean, I want to ask a little bit technical, like, Michael, you do sketches, and Gideon, I'm assuming you do some as well. But do you do CAD drawings? Do you use computer renderings? Do we do Pinterest boards for people? How do you get them to understand what the vision that you have after you've talked to them, you know what the brief is, three bedrooms or a kid's room, whatever it might be, you've got that. What tools do you use to convey your ideas?
- [17:55]
Michael G. Ember
Well, I think we use any tool available to Us and what's necessary. We often start off with inspiration images. You know, the client always comes to you with inspiration images. This is what we're looking for. And then what we do is we try to augment that. And given that we work in a lot of unique landscapes, we often put together a booklet that responds to that, that uses some of their inspiration images, some of our inspiration images that build upon that. We even get into writing a history of the place in which they're building to understand what it means culturally to build there. And from that, you then get a response that you understand, okay, is this person more technical or do they just need a high level understanding of what we're doing? We'll use soft renderings. At some point, we may use very detailed computer renderings. At another point, we may use models, depending on their ability to understand the media and be able to read themselves into it. So it's again, we're always adjusting.
- [19:03]
Gideon Mendelsohn
We're the same. I think it really depends and you sort of figure it out as you go. In the beginning, we start with a lot of sketching. Yes, Michael's right. Clients always bring in inspirational images that used to be women would come in with their binders of tear sheets and tear.
- [19:20]
Michael G. Ember
Part of our job is to curate that. Right?
- [19:22]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah, exactly.
- [19:22]
Nina Farmer
Exactly. Yeah.
- [19:23]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Now it's a little bit more Pinterest driven, at least from our clients, and that's fine with us. We can add to Pinterest boards. And again, it's looking at those things in the beginning of the design process and dialoguing about design, understanding how comfortable our clients are with dialoguing about design. Some of them are super fluent, some of them aren't fluent at all. And our job is to guide them and to ask the right questions and to try and extract from them, get them to feel a little bit more comfortable, whether we're talking about architecture or palette form, whatever it might be. But we're doing sketching. We're doing some design intent CAD drawings in the beginning, which are basic, and then those develop into more technical drawings with details and dimensions. Clients often are not as interested in that level of detail, but that's more for communicating to contractors, vendors, et cetera. But we use SketchUp periodically, which clients have enjoyed. Whether we're might be something as simple as looking at the leg of a piece of a sofa that we've designed. And if a client doesn't understand what a chamfer is or some detail, we will put it in SketchUp so we can kind of rotate it for them and have them understand what it might be. So we do use SketchUp as well, which is fun.
- [20:38]
Michael Boudreau
And Nina, do you do drawings as well?
- [20:40]
Nina Farmer
I mean, we do, yes. Yep.
- [20:42]
Michael Boudreau
Not every designer is a great drawer.
- [20:45]
Nina Farmer
I'm not a fabulous hand sketcher. I wish I was. And in fact, it was one of the reasons that I didn't go into architecture. I just thought that would be too limited.
- [20:54]
Michael Boudreau
Well, when do you see Michael's book?
- [20:56]
Michael G. Ember
You'll be like, we're going to test you later tonight.
- [20:58]
Nina Farmer
I know, right?
- [20:59]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah.
- [20:59]
Nina Farmer
Yes. But we do everything on cad. We design a lot of our projects. We might be the interior and architectural team because it's really interior projects. So we'll be doing the bathroom and the kitchens and the CAD involving all of that. When it's new construction or larger restoration projects, we always work in a team. And I think for us, the best projects are when you have a wonderful architectural team and contractors and everyone's on the same page about things and we're all sending all of our stuff to be rendered, or the architects are doing it in house and every piece of it is kind of coming together and gelling simultaneously. So we really get involved with the team approach when we're trying to kind of show all of the aspects of what we might be presenting. But we do do in house cat and all of the stuff around that, for sure.
- [21:52]
Michael G. Ember
You know, the other part of this that often doesn't get discussed, Michael, is when there's too much trust, when the client just kind of lets you go and says, you know, the worst thing is to hear, well, I just want a Michael Ember house. There's no such thing. And it's critically important that we remain engaged throughout the process. That there's this constant dialogue because it's always this correction and re correction as we move through the process to make sure that we're really on point again years down the road when they end up moving into their new home and this is their life moving forward. So that constant engagement is critically important and goes beyond just trust.
- [22:35]
Ana Brockway
Hi, everybody, and thanks for joining us for another episode of the Cherish podcast. I'm Ana Brockway, co founder and president of Cherish. I'm delighted to share that Cherish is now offering only to the trade the most generous return policy in the industry. That is a 14 day return window on all our exceptionally curated inventory. Designers asked for it and we listened. This offer is now available to interior designers on all purchases. So it's time to get shopping. For more information, visit cherish.com trade. That's C-H-A-I-R-I-H.com trade. And now back to the ship.
- [23:18]
Michael Boudreau
I would imagine as sort of. You touched upon this, Gideon, that at a certain point you've got the client on board, whatever. Then they don't need to see super detailed things like you were saying, think drawing contractor or the builder, Michael. So I guess at what point do you go back to the romance for the client to make sure that they still love the vision, but you're not going to have their eyes blaze over at these technical drawings and super detailed things. So is that just something that you finesse, Gideon?
- [23:46]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah. I mean, every client's different. You get a sense for how much stamina they have and interest in understanding. You know, Michael indicated this. You know, some clients can't read a two dimensional drawing. So it's a little bit more verbal and visual in a different way. Those are clients that want to look at material and sketches and textiles and things like that. So again, we've got. I don't know if Michael said he's reinventing every time. That sounds challenging.
- [24:18]
Michael G. Ember
It is challenging.
- [24:21]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I don't know if we're reinventing, but we're adjusting. I've been doing this for 20 years on my own. I worked for another designer. My mother was a designer. I've had a chance to see sort of what works and what doesn't. So we've created the system and we will make adjustments to make it more successful for our clients. But we sort of try and stay in the lane a little bit because that's what's worked for us.
- [24:43]
Michael G. Ember
I think that capacity issue is really important, Gideon. We've got clients that we know. We literally have them for 30 minutes and then we've got clients that will sit for six hours.
- [24:54]
Nina Farmer
So true.
- [24:55]
Michael G. Ember
Completely focused and it'll be us that has lost the capacity.
- [25:00]
Nina Farmer
But Michael, don't you find that those clients. And this is sort of a job we're working on now that I'm thinking about. There are certain things, clients that do have the capacity and they want to see every outlet and every switch and where every component's going to be. And it's really important to listen to those clients and their wants at that point because the people that have the attention span, that want to see the nitty gritty, you know, and you kind of read that and know, okay. That we're in it and we're showing them every single thing.
- [25:29]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah. Obviously when we're designing these, you take a big estate for Instance, there's thousands of decisions to make. And, you know, we often tell our clients, you know, there's thousands of decisions, there's hundreds upon hundreds of good decisions, but there's very, very few right decisions to be made. And our job is to channel them to those right decisions. And in doing that, you really have to take it a piece at a time. We often start at the 10,000 level. And as we drill in, obviously at that 10,000 level, we're not going over their kitchen design or their master closet design or where their socks are going. That happens way down the line after we've made those larger decisions, and we can focus on those smaller decisions. So it's an understanding of how they hear, how they process, and their ability to make decisions. And we all know we've got those clients that it's difficult for them to make decisions. And you may have clients that one can make the decision and the other disagrees with that decision.
- [26:30]
Michael Boudreau
Well, yes, it's like my joke about designers being couples therapists. You know, it's kind of true. That's always an issue.
- [26:37]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I think Michael makes a really good point, though. We also have projects that last years, and we look at things more macro and then to micro. So we might be. And also from a lead time standpoint, what are the things that are going to take the longest? So we start with those things so we can get those things going, but the presentations are delivered or presented the same way. So we're starting with big picture things. I'll talk about decorating a little bit. You know, I often like to start with floor coverings as well. You know, we do a lot of custom rugs, so those can take a year to be made, depending on how many knots, et cetera. And so it's also starting with rugs is also a great way for me to kind of talk to people. You know, I use that as a one of these gaining trust moments. I'm not the kind of designer that walks into the D and D with my clients and it's like flipping through wings of fabrics. That just sounds like suicide to me. But looking at some rugs in my office, talking a little bit about the different qualities of rugs and construction techniques is a great way to kind of gain some trust and get a sense of what people like and move the project along with a big picture, big ticket item. But we start with bigger picture presentations, whether it's furniture. We might start with upholstery and large case pieces, and then it goes to the smaller accent pieces. Then it goes to accessories. So, again, it's all part of that timeline.
- [28:00]
Michael G. Ember
And that doesn't go without saying that all of those elements relate to one another. Right. And so the difficult thing is to make sure that a client isn't getting overly obsessed about the relationship of six inches in a toilet room versus where the vanity is or whatever when you're first conceptualizing a project. Because you still have to understand the proportions of the elevations, the compositions. The roof plan. Yeah. All these other elements that come into play. And that's just the beginning. Right. And as you move into interiors, all the interrelationships between all the different threads that get pulled. So there's just as much of a challenge to keep a client from getting uber focused on one element that affects all these other things that you still yet to make decisions on. You've got to leave room open so that those decisions move freely.
- [28:54]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Michael's right. There are thousands of decisions. And what you don't want is for clients to get nervous and have to worry about some of those decisions that you don't really want them to be even thinking about. When you're talking about proportions and architecture scale, they need to just trust us on that kind of stuff. What I'm interested in hearing about is what is the problem with the vanity that we've designed? What are they not liking? Is it the detail? Is it the finish? Is it the way we've organized drawers and doors, that kind of thing? If they're concerned about is the height of this vanity correct or the number of inches off the wall, then we're in trouble.
- [29:30]
Michael Boudreau
And Nina, do you find that your clients, because of social media, there's so much design on social media, Instagram, everything that. Do you think they come to you now? Not every client, obviously, but more clients are coming to you wanting to be engaged with those kind of questions?
- [29:44]
Nina Farmer
Well, yes, I think they want to be engaged. I think most of the clients were doing very high level, expensive projects, so they want to know what they're getting. I found social media to sort of. Or Instagram to be helpful rather than, you know, I've had this conversation with other designers, like our people coming to with, no, now I saw this idea. Now I have this idea, and I don't think my. It's really affecting me in that way. I think once we boil down to what they're getting, there is a certain trust level that they kind of let go and. And, you know, are able to sort of go along with the process.
- [30:21]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah, I think that's wonderful. As long as they're looking at how that inspires them. But I think the very worst is when a client brings you a social media image and say, I want this.
- [30:33]
Nina Farmer
Yes. Yeah, Agree, right?
- [30:35]
Gideon Mendelsohn
You don't want to be.
- [30:36]
Michael G. Ember
It's a montage at that point.
- [30:38]
Nina Farmer
Yeah.
- [30:38]
Gideon Mendelsohn
You don't want to be executing someone else's work. What I do find interesting is because there's so much imagery out there, our portfolios are so visible to the whole world that when clients come in, I find myself talking less about design because they already know what we're capable of doing. They already like our work. I'm selling service, I'm selling my team, I'm selling communication, documentation. That's why I find this discussion so interesting, is our focus. It's so fascinating to me because there are hundreds and hundreds of designers even in just New York City. I mean, it's unbelievable. And I sort of joke, you know, we're all good enough. You know what I mean? And there's work for all of us at the end of the day, at least in these times. What I find is how are we differentiate ourselves in terms of our process, in terms of our teams and the experience that we offer? The design is so important, obviously, but they're coming in. We don't have to get their buy in as much as we used to about design. They're not interviewing us. I'm not having to continue to sell my design capabilities when clients come in.
- [31:48]
Michael G. Ember
I think that's important, Gideon, is that when they come to us, they're not buying the design of a house, they're buying into a process. There's a lot of people that could just go out and buy a house, buy it fully furnished, for God's sake. But there's very, very few that are willing to take the time to go through the process, this multi year process of designing and building their own home. And it's that service of being able to be this guide through this process to make it an enjoyable process for them. And it's just as much about the process of doing it as it is the end result. And so the. That's a large part of our job.
- [32:29]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah. What I mean is like 10, 15 years ago, clients would come in and we'd be talking a lot about style and what we do from a design standpoint. And I just feel like we're doing a lot less of that because now they know, you know, they already know.
- [32:45]
Michael Boudreau
Well, I was going to say three of you have the advantage that a, you're very established, you all have. I Think very particular visions that you bring to different clients in different circumstances. But if I come to you, Michael, I know I'm going to get a certain quality of house and thoughtfulness and execution, as opposed to somebody who's starting out, which I could see they're probably getting bombarded with. You know, I want this. I like this. I like that. Because each of you, Nina, you are very distinctive. Your book makes your vision clear. It's a vision that I happen to respond to wonderfully. And the same with you, Gideon, but I would have probably hire you for a different house than I would hire Nina if I could hire both of you.
- [33:22]
Nina Farmer
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I think that clients are sort of educated and they understand. And I think Gideon mentioned this and Michael said it too. Every house we do looks different than the last one we did. We're not a firm where you can say, I want X, give me this. It's very much driven by the client and the house and the surroundings and the environment, all the things. And you can see that from our portfolio. But I think when clients come to us, they've studied us, they understand, oh, there's a vision that this person's or a lens they're seeing it through. And I like their philosophy. And I think that comes with experience and age, and you have to sort of build into that, you know? And I think we're all fortunate that we've gotten to a level that clients can see that it's definitely harder for designers starting out. I think you have to do a little bit more of a sell.
- [34:17]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah, I think we're all fortunate in that there's not a lot of going through interviews between other designers and architects that typically when somebody comes through the door or calls, they want us to design their house. The point moving forward is. And the discussions before you've been hired is, is there building that level of trust and level of communication to where they say, this is somebody not only that I can work with, but I want to work through this process with 100% agree.
- [34:52]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I feel like over the last five to eight years, especially, I'm just getting clients to buy into the process, and they already want us to do the house, or they think they want us to do the house before they've met us. But then once they meet us, once they meet the team, once they hear this presentation and understand our service and process, then they're like, okay, now we want to hire them as well.
- [35:14]
Michael Boudreau
Okay, so I'm going to be sort of a devil's advocate here. Have you ever, any of you, maybe this is early on in your careers, maybe not so much now, but have you ever been hired by a client? You've had the meetings, you know, you've thought about it, you do the client presentation, and the client is like, uh, this isn't what I want at all. Has that ever happened to any of you?
- [35:37]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Not really. Even, like, walked away or.
- [35:40]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah, you had to redo the whole. Rethink the whole project?
- [35:43]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I mean. No, that's never happened. I mean, what has happened?
- [35:46]
Michael Boudreau
I'm glad.
- [35:47]
Gideon Mendelsohn
A couple of times. Yeah. I mean, that would be horrifying. We've certainly presented something, and clients have, you know, we have shifted directions. That's happened a couple times, and it's usually because a client shifted their want. But I would say most of the time, when we present, we're usually about 85% there after the first presentation of whatever it is we're presenting.
- [36:11]
Nina Farmer
I think because Gideon and Michael and I, we all start from inspiration, images, and those are so crucial to really. You can talk about a vision in words, but to look at something that people respond to and that they want to take the essence of, really, if you dial into Those, you've probably 80 to 90% hit the project on its head. And then it's just tweaking. I think it's, you know, if you don't pay attention to what people are saying, I think that's when you can get off course.
- [36:41]
Ana Brockway
Course.
- [36:41]
Nina Farmer
But those are super helpful to sort of start that process.
- [36:46]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah. And when we present, say, we're presenting a floor plan to a client for the first time, and it's never just the floor plan. It's with the elevations and perspective and everything else as well. It's not just about, this is your living room, and this is your kitchen, and this is your master bedroom, and there's a view out of this windows, et cetera, et cetera, we always walk them through the series of experiences that they're going to have moving through this house. What they're going to experience. Moving from point A to point B, what they're going to experience once they're in that space, what they're going to experience. Like Nina said, when they're sitting in the chair reading a book and looking out the window, it's unfolding those frames of the movie for them so that they can understand how the house is going to live, not what it is. And if you can connect with them on that level, then you're gonna move forward in a positive way. And not have to change course. So that's where we try to find our success in those initial meetings and finding what their movie is, if you will.
- [37:52]
Michael Boudreau
But have you ever had a client say, you know, you show them the movie, everything is great, and then they say, you know, I really want the master bedroom on the other side of the house. Or I wanna.
- [38:01]
Michael G. Ember
Oh, sure, that happens.
- [38:03]
Gideon Mendelsohn
So, of course, yeah.
- [38:05]
Nina Farmer
Yes.
- [38:06]
Michael Boudreau
Okay. So how do you deal with that? I mean, they're not gonna fire you. Okay. Which would be horrible.
- [38:12]
Michael G. Ember
You know, we have all sorts of different clients. You have those clients that you fall in love with the movie in the very beginning, and there's that trust that moves forward. And look, we're dealing with very successful, very intelligent, motivated, capable people. So sometimes they want to dig into that process and really express the way that they want to live different from that initial movie. And so we've got to listen to that, we've got to adjust to that, and we've got to move and adjust the script as we go.
- [38:47]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah, I agree. I mean, if someone wants a bedroom on the other side of the house, your goal is to explain or show them why it works. Well, where you have it, show them why it may work, the pros and cons of it being on the other side of the house. And ultimately, clients make the decisions. Our goal is to guide them. You know, we're building for them.
- [39:07]
Michael Boudreau
I would just be so annoyed. It's like, why the hell didn't you tell me this right at the beginning?
- [39:11]
Gideon Mendelsohn
You know, they might not know. They might not know.
- [39:14]
Michael Boudreau
That's true. That's true, that's true. And, you know, what about you? I mean, let's say you've worked out the color palettes, you picked a lot of the fabrics. You think you've got this presentation that addresses everything that the client says they want, and then it turns out it's.
- [39:29]
Michael G. Ember
Not, and then they don't like the rug.
- [39:30]
Michael Boudreau
They don't like the rug. You just have to start all over.
- [39:32]
Nina Farmer
Now they've got the rug. So, you know, we don't do a presentation where it's like you're buying into all of this. Here it goes. I think that's too overwhelming. Right. So we start with, you know, usually it's the hard surface materials that are the longer lead time for construction, and we're building on top of those. By the time they're making some of these other decisions, they're really in it, and we're showing them. Maybe it's two options for people, I find don't want to see 100 options. So, you know, our presentation's very tight. It's. Here's a collection of furniture with fabrics that can go on each piece, and it's not every single piece in the room. And so they're kind of getting the story unfolding to them little by little. And by the end, it's like, okay, here's a lamp and a side table and this little accessory. But they're never deciding on an entire picture where it's like, oh, that was a waste of time, because we've designed everything in the house, and it's now being scrapped. So I think the way you unfold it helps them to really soak it in. And they're getting the vision slowly building in their head as well. So it's really coming clear to all of us at the same time.
- [40:44]
Michael G. Ember
You know, it's also giving them ownership in those decisions. Right. It's their process as well. And sometimes they'll ask for something that you know is wrong, and you'll explain it that they're wrong, but they'll say, yes, but, you know, I really think we ought to do it this way. So sometimes it means that you've got to go back to them, show them what they've asked for, but then show them other ways of doing it that are more appropriate. And often they end up coming around and saying, I understand, let's move in this other direction. But they have to have ownership in that process.
- [41:20]
Michael Boudreau
And I'm sure there's moments where you just wanted to say, what are you, an idiot?
- [41:24]
Gideon Mendelsohn
That's totally the wrong thing. Yeah, right. You can't do that. I think that's important, though. I think the clients want to feel like they're involved. They want to feel like, you know, they don't want to feel out of control.
- [41:35]
Michael Boudreau
Well, it's their home. Yeah, it's their home, and they're in.
- [41:39]
Michael G. Ember
Control of the rest of their lives. They're usually very highly successful people that are in control of their lives.
- [41:46]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I also think control is a big word, but I think it's an important word also. And I think they want to feel like we're really in control of the project. And like I said in the beginning of the talk, you know, that initial presentation we give and our focus on budgets, and when we show them our Excel budgets that have a gazillion columns to them, and they see what we actually do and how we manage their budgets and how every one of our presentations has, at the top of each slide, what the budget Number was for that particular lampshade. And then here's the two options for lampshades, and here are the two prices and the lead times. That's the trust that they are like, okay, these guys are on top of it.
- [42:33]
Michael Boudreau
They know what they're doing.
- [42:34]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah. It's so important that trust and them knowing that we're in control. They still want to feel like they're controlling a little bit, but they can relax a little bit about it and let go and enjoy the process a little. That's when I think it's a really, really successful experience.
- [42:50]
Michael G. Ember
Yeah. The worst thing is for us to try to over control.
- [42:53]
Michael Boudreau
Yeah. You don't want to impose on people.
- [42:56]
Michael G. Ember
Right.
- [42:57]
Gideon Mendelsohn
I think it's a delicate balance and something you need to kind of figure out as you're meeting them. You know, every couple's different. We happen to have a pretty good percentage of clients who are in the real estate business. Whether they're residential developers or whatever they're doing. They know a little more than we want them to.
- [43:15]
Michael G. Ember
Try designing for interior designers. My fuddest clients.
- [43:22]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Try designing for yourself. You know, that's a good point, Michael. That sounds really, really, really terrible. I'll never call you.
- [43:32]
Michael G. Ember
Thank you, Gideon.
- [43:33]
Gideon Mendelsohn
Yeah, but it's so important, I think, to listen and really understand what's going to make each individual feel the most comfortable. Right. At the end of the day, our goal is to move the project along, get decisions made. And it's our job to understand these people and how to make them comfortable so they can say yes.
- [43:52]
Michael Boudreau
Well, I think most clients, when they start dealing with the process, must be amazed at how complicated it is. How many, like we were saying, thousands of decisions. And I would assume as they go along, they have only more trust and respect for you guys and what you do.
- [44:10]
Gideon Mendelsohn
You would think, Michael. But what's interesting is how often people come in the door. And these are the people that I send out the door who come in thinking that they can do this themselves, but they don't have time or whatever.
- [44:22]
Michael Boudreau
They're too busy.
- [44:22]
Gideon Mendelsohn
They can't do this themselves.
- [44:24]
Michael G. Ember
Well, and on the opposite end of that, Gideon is also making sure that those clients that didn't realize thousands of decisions don't get overwhelmed and locked up on that.
- [44:35]
Nina Farmer
Yeah, I think that's more likely what happens, Michael. And then I sometimes mid project, they're just like you just, just.
- [44:41]
Michael Boudreau
I know.
- [44:42]
Nina Farmer
I'm done.
- [44:43]
Michael Boudreau
Now I have to select a doorknob.
- [44:45]
Nina Farmer
You know, it's like, yeah, I just can't. I feel like it just gets fluid at the end where it's like, yeah, yeah.
- [44:53]
Michael Boudreau
I've always been so impressed with what you people do. You know, designers, architects. It's like, to me, it's amazing. And you guys are three of the best. And I'm just so happy to have you here to talk about this because I think it's going to be really helpful to a lot of our listeners who are not as accomplished as you, perhaps, or not as experienced. And I think it's going to be very informative and reassuring for them. So I want to thank my wonderful guests, Michael Imber, Nina Farmer and Gideon Mendelsohn, and thank you all and thank everyone for listening to the Cherish Podcast. You've been listening to the Cherish Podcast, brought to you, of course, by Cherish, which was recently voted by the readers of USA Today as the best place to shop online for furniture and home decor. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or colleague. Or better yet, go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. We appreciate, appreciate your help in spreading the word and we would love your ideas for future episodes. Please email us@podcasterish.com the Cherish podcast is produced by Britta Muller and engineered by Hanger Studios in New York. Until next time.