The Chris Hedges Report

Episode: Taking Power Amidst the Turbulence (w/ Dylan Saba)
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Chris Hedges
Guest: Dylan Saba (Staff Attorney, Palestine Legal; Cohost, Turbulence podcast)

Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging and urgent conversation, Chris Hedges and Dylan Saba dissect the contemporary collapse of the liberal international order in the wake of Israel’s war on Gaza and other Middle East conflicts, amidst a resurgence of authoritarianism and intensifying global crises. The episode centers on how the genocide in Gaza exemplifies broader imperial decline, shifting geopolitical power, and the challenge for movements seeking meaningful resistance.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Gaza as Capstone of Imperial Crisis

• Interconnected Crises:
  Hedges frames Gaza not as an isolated atrocity, but as a culminating episode in a wider matrix of imperial violence, climate collapse, and social inequality, all rooted in Western colonial legacies.

  “Gaza…does not mark the end of the settler colonial project. It marks perhaps its final phase.” – Chris Hedges (00:10)

• The Slow Walked Genocide:
  Israel’s war, with comprehensive Western support, is characterized as a slow, ongoing genocide and part of a wider “murder-suicide pact” threatening global stability.

2. The End of the American Century and Hegemonic Transition

• Historical Arc:
  Saba reviews the rise and contradictions of US global dominance post-WWII, highlighting the tension between the rhetoric of multilateralism/human rights and the reality of “American exceptionalism” (04:08–06:12).

  “There’s rules for everyone that they have to follow, and then there’s the reality of US power.” – Dylan Saba (05:23)

• Terminal Crisis:
  The US defeat in Vietnam and failures since 9/11 mark a period of imperial overreach and decline.

  “Gaza genocide [is] the capstone of the War on Terror, and Israel as the greatest representation of U.S. overextension.” – Dylan Saba (07:00)

• Chaotic Geopolitics:
  Israel’s aggression is both enabled by – and hastening – the breakup of the old order. Middle East wars, disregard for international law, and US/Israeli “death drive” are destabilizing forces (09:00–10:11).

3. Israel’s Military “Successes” and Regional Dynamics

• Fractured Resistance:
  Hedges notes Israeli gains against regional adversaries; Saba responds that Israel’s success stems from dividing regional “solidarity fronts” and exploiting the self-interest and weakness of Arab regimes (10:11–14:43), with Yemen as the rare outlier.

  “It’s not that Israel is strong, it’s that the Arab regimes are weak.” – Hedges quoting source (15:00)

• Limits of Diplomacy:
  Attempts to “normalize” with the West are doomed with a power committed to permanent military dominance.

  “There is no appeasing this kind of racist colonialism.” – Dylan Saba (15:18)

4. Collapse and Transformation of International Order

• Decline of Norms:
  Saba asserts that US power is shifting from a “rules-based” façade to open, lawless force; legitimacy of imperial authority is fading, exposed by the mass suffering in Gaza and global rage (19:19–24:21).
• UN’s Complicity:
  Saba sharply criticizes the UN Security Council’s rubber-stamping of “the Trump plan for Gaza,” calling the installation of Tony Blair as viceroy a colonial act of unprecedented boldness (21:20–22:45).

  “You have to go back even before the mandate system…to get an act of colonial force this naked.” (22:25)

5. Future Scenarios — What Comes After US Decline?

• Open Outcome:
  Saba and Hedges discuss the potential rise of China, but note its disinterest in replicating US-style hegemony, leaving the world facing turbulence, cascading crisis, and multipolar instability (24:28–27:11).
• Rise of Settler Nationalism and Authoritarianism:
  The void left by the declining liberal order is being filled by right-wing, revanchist politics, with the left failing to offer a comprehensive alternative.

6. Authoritarianism in the West and Suppression of Dissent

• Wave of Crackdowns:
  Hedges outlines three phases of repression—demonizing pro-Palestine students, scapegoating immigrants, and smearing the radical left in the wake of real and manufactured violence (27:11–28:52).

  “All of these were false narratives, but all of these have been effectively used to rapidly consolidate authoritarian control.” – Chris Hedges (28:33)

• Weaponization of Palestine Solidarity:
  Saba affirms Palestine is the “tip of the spear” for both repression and possible resistance; the linking of anti-imperial causes is both threat and opportunity (28:52–31:54).

7. Points of Leverage: Labor & Disruption

• International Labor Solidarity:
  Hedges references Italian dockworkers’ refusal to load arms for Israel; Saba highlights the strategic power of labor and intervention “at the point of circulation” (31:54–34:29).

  “There are ways to think strategically about how to leverage a marginal position to have an outsized impact.” – Dylan Saba (33:45)

8. State of the American Left and Prospects for Resistance

• Crisis of Social Movements:
  Saba diagnoses the American left’s cooptation by the Democratic Party, diluting radical demands and failing to challenge class and imperial power (35:06–38:40).

  “The Democratic Party has turned itself into a graveyard for social movements.” – Dylan Saba (35:49)

• Need for Long-Term Institutions:
  The Gaza crisis, Saba hopes, will force a break with electoral illusions and push the left toward durable, self-defensive, militant organizing.
• Necessity of Mass Movements:

  “If we don’t have movements, it doesn’t really matter who’s in power.” – Chris Hedges [citing Max Weber] (38:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Genocide is coded in the DNA of imperial powers.” – Chris Hedges (03:12)
• “The United States and Israel have entered into this joint murder-suicide pact…” – Dylan Saba (09:48)
• “[Israel’s] national identity…is a spartan state committed to permanent warfare. And that is not an exaggeration.” – Dylan Saba (17:05)
• “Their [Israel’s] nuclear program, which they don’t admit exists, has long been openly rumored to be called the Samson Option. And what that means is that if they face existential threat, they will bring down the world with them.” – Dylan Saba (18:19)
• “The world that liberals anticipated and counted on, especially through the Obama era, doesn’t exist anymore.” – Dylan Saba (26:13)
• “We’re without movements…if we don’t have movements it doesn’t really matter who’s in power.” – Chris Hedges (38:40)

Important Timestamps

• 00:10–04:08 — Hedges’ opening framing: Gaza, the imperial order, climate crisis, and global collapse.
• 04:08–10:11 — Saba on the end of American hegemony; contradictions of the liberal international order; Gaza as culmination.
• 11:05–14:43 — Israeli military “successes,” fractured resistance, regional dynamics.
• 15:00–18:35 — Weakness of Arab regimes, the myth of Israel’s strength, “Samson Option.”
• 19:19–24:28 — What “decline” actually means; erosion of US legitimacy; UN complicity; prospects for collapse or transition.
• 27:11–31:54 — Rapidly consolidating authoritarianism in the West; repression and criminalization of dissent; expanding surveillance and detention.
• 31:54–34:29 — Labor and blockade actions; strategic points of leverage in global logistics.
• 35:06–38:40 — Collapse of the American left, cooptation by Democrats, the need for militant organization.
• 38:40–39:49 — Closing thoughts on necessity of movements; contact/info for Turbulence podcast.

How to Find the Turbulence Podcast

• Substack: turbulencepod.substack.com
• Social Media: @turbulence_pod (various platforms)
• Public Episodes: Themed discussions and interviews available for free; candid news roundups behind a paywall.

This episode is a sobering, incisive portrait of our moment—charting the unraveling of an imperial world order, its violent consequences, and the urgent search for new forms of resistance and solidarity as authoritarianism tightens its grip.